Commencal Reveals New Clash Kids Range

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 I have the 2021 Meta HT and the Manitou JunitPro fork is actually NOT the proper JunitPro. Commencal have removed the IRT kit that is in the pro fork. What makes this extra confusing is that the air pressure label on the fork leg references air pressures for the IRT and the Air Spring even though there is no IRT chamber in the fork at all.

I have been trying to deal with Commencal to either confirm if I can buy an IRT chamber and place it into the fork because it is not clear if the air chamber has also been substituted with something else (messing with clearances), or provide the correct air pressure required for the air spring (Pro or Expert air pressures?).

Otherwise Its a really nice bike but their marketing is misleading when it comes to the fork, they should be clear that the changes they made to the fork are more than just what is stated above, because it conveniently forgets to mention what they REMOVED from the Pro fork (removing the IRT basically makes it an upgraded Expert fork imo).

 @PinkBikeWhisperer: Yeah that BS and sucks.

The key is to know if its the Expert Lowers or the Pro Lowers (lighter with different shape I think). If its the Pro lowers, it may have an expert spring or the dorado spring. But don't quote me on that. If the air valve is at the bottom of the lowers, I believe its an "expert" air spring. The dorado is the upgraded one and works with the IRT.

Just ping Hayes/Manitou support and they will get your sorted out.

Also, bail on the air pressure charts. Just get 20% sag, slow the rebound a touch and then add a click or two of compression if need be. Note, if its an Expert spring, make sure you really screw your shock pump onto the valve firmly as it has to depress the extra pin so that it airs up BOTH the positive and negative chambers. If you don't, the fork sucks into itself and you panic .

 Shimano DEORE sucks for small kids hands, due to large lever and narrow handlebar is hard to properly position lever for short kids fingers;

Tektro have much better kids specific levers; or slx/xt/xtr

however I do agree that it is nice to see manufactures produce quality components for the smallness;

 We have been comparing geometry of assorted 26 and 27.5 bikes and have to disagree with your perfect comment. As much as he wanted the current Clash Jr I can't do it based on high BB, short reach and long stays. The wheel base is okay and would be a 10cm jump from his Supreme 24. Ideally the Primus 6cm increase and 26's would have been perfect, then another 5cm to xs 27.5. The new models numbers look a bit off to me compared to the other options. The new XS Supreme is another story and looks good in the WB and chainstay length, maybe a bit high in the BB.

 @dirtpedaler: Yeah I'm not as familiar with the larger bikes. I did notice that they just use the same rear triangle for the Jr as they do for the XS. It pretty dang long. I'd want something closer to 420mm/415mm for a 26" bike. The reach is fine for a 26" bike. Everyone is into long bike but for kids on a 33-34lb bike, you don't want it to be super long. I tested my kid out on a longer XS sled (410mm) and a more manageable XS Bronson (like 384mm of reach) and the Bronson was by far better geo immediately. The kid is like 4-10ish which is right in line for the 26" bike. So its close enough for an intermediate bike like a 26er. 60cm/50cm increase in reach is really big...that more than adult bikes increase from size to size. I think the Primus sizing is pretty solid for a 26er (380 to 390 works).

The old Supreme 24" has goofy geometry so hard to base it off that (or were you talking about Clash 24"?). IIRC the 24" version was even shorter than the 20" version right? It was even shorter than a Spawn 20" hardtail that uniformly worked great (aside from HTA). The front triangle numbers are solid with these bikes.

 @Svinyard: Supreme 24 and Clash 24 same I believe, I'll have to double check but WB actually longer on Supreme. Goofy geometry didn't bother him since he is small for his age. We have 26's on the bike now since we didn't pull the trigger on a current 26. Actually at age 11 now and no Whistler for 2 years we weren't sure how into riding he would be. Trip to B-ham helped, somehow he's managing to uphill the DH bike and is more stoked than ever. Really has his whips and playful style riding down so concerned how the length of his next bike will effect his riding style. He will be at the low end of the recommended height for his next bike, xs 27.5, but he's ridden similar already and hoping a little extra rolling speed will offset more length. Primus would've been a perfect bike for the moment but not for long. We decided to let him pick his next bike but he wasn't interested in YT. Big fan of Remy M so he really wanted a Propain but we had to say no to that option.

 bicycle-caterpillar?

 @PHeller: nah..... velo-cepede

 Did it back in the 90's with a BMX at the front and a kid's road bike at the back. It was easy to spread the fork legs on the road bike to get them to fit on the back of the BMX. Did several 40Km rides on those with a friend. No adaptor needed - just no fear of the whole thing coming apart and a great deal of recklessness.

 yeah but when you sell these bikes, their resale value is through the roof compared to an adult bike. The cost of ownership isn't that crazy actually. Especially if you have more than one kid that legit slays.

I do think the price is pretty high (and missing from here). I'm guessing it'll be like Norco's at around 3300-3400$. Thankfully YT still makes about the same bike for around 2k$ with nearly the same components, some even better like their use of the Manitou/Hayes/Sunringle Duroc wheels. Then used it'll be 1500$. Much more palatable.

 It is niche group... it caters to most parents that take their kids to ride bike parks and/or race DH with them. Most of those parents understand the proper fit and right geo for a safety and progression.

 @Svinyard: I've not seen that. I for sure have seen lots of people trying to get "near new" cost out of their kids bike because the use/wear is really low. But seems like they just sit that way for a long time unsold and then get sold off for low when the seller is sick of it taking up space?? (limited experience with it, but that's what I've seen?)

Anyway, if your experience is that it seems like people are getting decent resale for kids bikes that's good to hear.

 After working in a bike shop that sells bikes like these. I will say you would be surprised on what people will pay for! And how many of them there are.

 @stiingya: Check my buysell page. Sold every single one of my kids bikes at asking price withing 2 weeks max. Even had buyers paying for shipping on occasion.

 its a valid point about a $3k kids bike, but just being for a kid isnt going to make it automatically cheaper. Still the same amount of welds on the frame just slightly less material. Components are arguably adult level. Shocks are just as complex, just valved differently. Not to mention they are going to sell much less of them so you have to recoup more cost per bike. Again as a parent its hard to stomach a $3k bike, but if you want to get a kid a smaller version of what an adult would ride is going to cost almost the same.

 Besides bikes not being priced by the cm, I never understood these "kids will outgrow in 2 or 3 years" arguments. It's like, for how long do most people keep their own bikes? And also:
- kids bikes retain better resale value.
- if one has more than one child them the younger can inherit it.
- we are talking here about providing a good, fun and safe experience to one's kids and in the process fostering in them passion for the sport. I'll keep my 64,5°HA for an extra couple of years before upgrading for that high pivot 63,5°HA bike if that allows me to buy my girl a 3k bike

 Just have multiple kids spaced not too close together and the price/kid decreases by 1/2, 2/3, etc.

Definitely the more cost-effective way to go.

 I was very lucky that I was able to get great FS bikes from the used market for my kids before Covid hit. But will have to buy bikes again probably by the end of 2022 / beginning of 2023. They're 10 turning 11 now so we're into small or maybe even medium sized adult frames by then (probably still 27.5 though?). They'll also be helping to buy their next bikes. And I should be able to sell their current bikes for $1500 - $2000.

But this is the new price point if you have kid shredders that are freaking sending it and you want to keep them safe and not held back by their equipment. When they're riding the same rowdy terrain almost as fast as you and cleaning a-line... what are you going to put them on?

This is my kids' sport... they don't play hockey/soccer/basketball or whatever.. we don't have to pay for other sports equipment, registrations or travel for tournaments. Though I do also pay for their mtb club. But there's also huge value in the fact that I don't have to sit and watch them play whatever other sport and we as a family can all mountain bike together. It's awesome and I'll pay a little more for that.

 Bikedad who spends 3-4k on his kids bikes here. I spend 4k because I can't afford to spend 1k.

When I bought low-end bikes for my kid, he grew out of them in 2 years and I had to resell for half what I paid. This is what leads people to look at kids bikes as a loss.

I decided to take a risk and buy high-end carbon bikes used on Pinkbike SellBuy. I was very choosy about it and picked bikes where I felt like there was 2 years of future-proof baked in- geo and axle geometry that wouldn't be too old in two years.

The result is that I sell my kid's bike for what I buy them for, except during the pandemic where I have every expectation to end up making a profit on the next bike I sell (which will immediately get eaten by the next one I buy).

It depends on your view of the timeframe of the purchase. Viewed over the useful lifetime of a kid's bike, the right high-end bike costs much less than minimum viable entry price point.

There is a side benefit which is that kids absolutely love riding great bikes and they go further and faster and have more fun.

 @Svinyard: "when you sell these bikes, their resale value is through the roof compared to an adult bike"

That is what I keep telling my wife!

 High end kids bikes = money in the bank. I’ve got 3 kids and all their outgrown bikes sell for around 90% of new in less than a week on pinkbike. Before COVID and after. What I don’t understand is releasing a new model that’s available in 1 year. Kids can grow through a model in that amount of time. Why burn your PR a year early?

 It depends on how much the kid is riding but can be worth it. I bought a Rocky Mountain Reaper 26" for my son age 9 and it has been a good investment. From his perspective, this bike does not hold him back. It's basically a 26" Altitude or Slayer; suitable for all terrain including expert bike park lines. It was approaching $3K in cost, but for the three years he rides it, he will be constantly progressing. Plus, the Rocky quality means it's easy to fix and maintain, and the resale is high. I would not have spent as much if MTB was only a passing interest, but he loves it and is pretty committed to riding regularly. Kids these days who ride a lot are seriously shredding; its awesome the industry recognizes there are riders for these bikes.

 @islandforlife: Exactly.

 Technically the dropout is on the seat stay and doesn't follow an arc and therefore is a virtual pivot point. However, not what one thinks of when you hear VPP

 As with commencal press releases in the past, I think a lot is lost in translation. Kinda confusing, but nbd. I, for one, would rather have slightly less expensive commencals than have their press releases a bit more polished.

 @SleepingAwake: why not call it a modified Horst link single pivot? (With the pivot on the chain stay but above the axle, which most definitely does follow an arc, albeit a barely imperfect arc). I’d consider VPP to have at least a short link at the main pivot and a unified rear triangle, this is definitely single pivot regardless of the rear axle/chainstay geometry due to the main pivot configuration.

 @SleepingAwake: unless I have my stays confused, the drop out is on the chain stay.

Edit: nevermind, my mistake, I see it now.

 @SleepingAwake: Calling it VPP is a stretch for sure. VPP refers to a very specific, now expired patent for counter rotating duel link design with a particular axle path and attributes, same as DW link or horst link covers specific attributes of a particular design. This doesn't even have counter rotating links and a Horst link style design doesn't really move the pivots locations per-say like a bike with mini links and a solid rear triangle do, it just keeps the rear axle tracking more vertically and separates the braking from the main pivot.

I'd say this set up is closer to Rocky's smooth link, with an exaggerated horst link style pivot. It definitely looks tricky at first though, I was sure It was a faux bar setup until I studied the renderings closer. That semi hidden rocker link is also smooth as butter.

 Hello @NZRalphy and everyone else who has jumped in. Thanks for everyone's comments, always a pleasure Yes, let's clarify that maybe we did confuse things a bit with all our virtual this's and that's... No, there is no VPP. But there IS a virtual pivot. Just no point So, that's what it will be called from now on, a virtual pivot. Thank goodness for that, let's go ride!

 @COMMENCALbicycles: don’t worry, the wolftooth ad right below your article spelled their own product wrong

 @kcy4130: you think their press releases are confusing, try dealing with their customer service. Or more accurately try dealing with their customer service after they make very specific recommendations for your frame build from them and then they dont work and they basically tell you to fack yourself and that its your fault.

 Ok I was wondering if it was just USA that was looking at a year away. Seems kind of like a hard sell to reserve a bike that may or may not fit depending on growth spurts in a year when it’s available.

 Always an interesting question. Reach from size to size is typically a nice jump of about 30mm. I'm not sure you could get an adjustable headset to move far enough. Swappable dropouts are pretty ugly too. It could likely be done tho. Flow bikes had this. It's certainly the only adjustable option that makes sense...today bikes just have a flip chip to boost the BB and a longer chainstay setting at best. Its kind of dumb because they bike never grows and usually gets shorter when swapping wheels. Your idea is the better move. That being said, I think you just buy a proper bike for their size and then sell it. Cost of ownership is pretty damn good on a legit kids bike. They sell in an instant too. Its not like selling an adult bike. So I think doing what Commencal is doing is better imo.

 @Svinyard: nice take, thanks.

 20' on average will be from 4y - 7y +- year, depending on the kid height etc and progress;
There absolutely no reason to make adjustable geo, better to by new bike of the next size;

Kids are expensive, bikes are expensive, forget about cost of ownership, buy your kid best bike possible to make riding enjoyable and safe;

 The travel thing is entirely a non-issue. We've been rocking it for the last 3 years and its sick, like really sick and 145mm isn't massive if the shock is setup properly. There's also times when it comes in handy if the kid goes huge and cases it (like where everyone in the zone hears it)...they don't get super bucked. You just tune the shock up a bit different if you want something firmer. We do a bit of park riding but its also a ton of everything else.

What you are looking for tho is easy. The YT Primus 24. A bit less travel but still a sick FS with Manitou/Hayes stuff...even includes their sick Duroc kids wheelset. Geo is slightly tamer too. And...its only 1999$ I think on pre-order. I'd grab that in a heartbeat. Ridiculously nice value for a prime bike. My only concern is that they do what Norco/Commencal have done and jack the price up by 1000$ sometime soon.

You could also drop huge cash on a XC Trailcraft Maxwell...but those are XC bikes with XC geo and crappy suspension (compared to Manitou's custom tuned, ultra-highend stuff). I'd do the YT before that by far, suspension and geo are king. Don't let the weight freak you out too much. People go nutty about frame-weight etc, when its literally the last weight that matters. Everything else is just components strapped on to it and can be changed.

 There is also single pivot VPace from Germany. We have had the FS 24 for almost 6 months and it has been great. Lighter than the Fluid or the Reaper.

 I picked up a TrailCraft Maxwell 24 last Spring and it shipped with RockShox REBA fork and Monarch R Shock with a factory medium tune 120mm front/back travel which is lots for a 7/8 yr old moderately aggressive rider. Both units are beautifully smooth and performed very well at pressures below charts. My daughter is only 48 lbs (127 cm tall) and the Maxwell24 bike weights 24 lbs...worth every penny to see her clear more hills then any kids her age and the boys eat her dust while their dad's just bust their balls about not trying hard enough!

Bottomline it makes family rides way more fun because she's better and can go further...without whining. It's no problem to tackle proper 18km Blue Trail rides with 300-600m elevation gain (plus drop!). It's fun to see her outdistance kids 1-2 years older on the descents...XC geo not so much...the website is out of date... they had a new geo for the 2021 frames that slackened it out without giving up the tidy short chainstays and appropriate reach. More like a Trail capable bike without sacrificing XC. The fit was much better than a Reaper which was an unwieldy sled by comparison to her size/weight/strength. Remember the chainstays are long enough to fit 26" wheels on the Reaper 24. I'm not sure how that compares to the Clash 24. True we ride mostly outside of the bike park, yet as we have lots of rooty/rocky trails in our area FS made it actually fun and that rear stayed glued and gave her confidence...the speed just increases naturally as a result. 120mm travel was more than enough for a couple of chunky steep laps at Kicking Horse this summer too...so I never felt like 140+ mm travel was a missed feature. But she's not whipping/scrubbing table-tops either down A-line...so your needs may vary.

Btw I've compared the suspension to other slightly older TrailCraft bikes and the Rockshox REBA is a huge upgrade from the past Suntour forks they used to spec (less market options even 2 years ago). Good thing about TrailCraft is you can ask for an exact shock/fork and you're not locked into any one kit, Brett/Ginger will hook you up nicely. Yes it's more cash than the higher volume name brands, but it's worth it to shave those couple lbs if your day out on the trails with your kid involves going uphill... at all.

The TrailCraft's weight is superlight and it's a tangible benefit. Their full sus builds are typically about 4 lbs lighter than competitor bikes (Rocky, Norco, YT) which may not seem very much to you or I and seemed like a very pricey extra $1k hit to only loose ~4 lbs but it's real, and I'd pay it again. There's a big difference in absolutes for what your kid can dead-lift at that age. Have them try to lift one of these FS bikes. My kid could not lift the Norco Fluid FS off the showroom floor...It was 29 lbs. Rocky Mountain Reaper was 27 lbs and it was a struggle. Loosing those 3 lbs down to 24 lbs and boom it made a difference for her, she can rustle that aluminum poney like it's her best friend. That's still 50% of her body weight. I wouldn't want to ride a 90 lbs bike...but why not save a few bucks and settle for a 100 lbs bike for yourself...its not much heavier!?! ....right...or maybe work a bit harder so you can play harder ;-) !!! Maybe sacrifice and only get yourself an alloy bike instead of carbon =p.

I'd be interested in the Clash 20 for my youngest daughter who's only on a 14" Woom currently...provided the weight is competitive...but I doubt it'll ring-in at or below 22 lbs like the Propain FS. I wish they'd list weight figures in the above spec...at this price point, for a full sus kids bike it's an insult to omit weight...especially with the massive industry lead-times going on...buying your kids bikes purely on spec! We'll probably get the TrailCraft BlueSky20 next...the weight hit is just massive for FS at that 20" size. We sold last year our 20" Spawn YJ, which was a beauty...but at 21 lbs was a little too beefcake when my oldest hopped on at 5...the TrailCraft drops that down to 18 lbs...so I've begun saving already...I'm a sucker for my girls...but the ROI is there!

Just remember, resale is hot right now and the dollar is up again against USD now. YES it was painful to go TrailCraft on the pocket book...but I never looked back after the initial sticker shock once we hit the Trails. My wife is now considering how she's going to keep pace ahead of her daughter for next season...with COVID closing her out of gyms...hehe not a bad problem to have. Instead my wife's solution was to buy herself a better bike =p. Now we pull more value behind our hitch than in front of it! Well for the hardstuff anyways...

Happy hunting!

 @Svinyard: FYI TrailCraft updated the geo on the Maxwell in the spring for the '21 bikes. Also they ditched the Suntour XCR forks on their higher builds, so the sus is not crappy anymore. On Geo they went slacker, stand-over dropped by 25mm. It's Great value to shave down that weight, but my kid is small. Yes YT and Propain have some nice FS units if your kid is a bit sturdier than mine you have way more choice!

The custome built Stans wheelset on the TrailCraft is super light, lets the bike be so flickable.

 @ChuckWall: How is the stand over height on the new Trailcrafts as that(and the old geometry) was what kept us away from their bikes with a shorter child.

The VPace bikes were several inches lower than most of the competitions bikes.

 @ChuckWall: Love the Geo updates and tapered headtube! They are now really close to the Clash but 66 instead of Clash 65d...huge improvement there. I'm familiar with the new kids Reba. Its a step up from the Suntour junk but its still no where near the JUnit forks. If you are familiar with the guts of a fork, there is a lot that goes into it. From what I could tell there is no damper adjustments or anything like that on the Reba, just rebound and its a crappy Solo air spring. Its fine but its still at the very bottom end of Rock Shox adult forks and is only a 26" fork so you get extra A2C/Stack for no good reason. Again, great for kids but for the ultra high prices, the JUnit fork is so much better. Its very similar to a custom tuned Pike with the dual air spring and decent damper. Its also easy enough to do a full service on and get full seal kits etc. I'm guessing if stock wasn't an issue, you'd see the trailcrafts fitted with those JUnit forks. They are truly next level. As are their kids Dominion brakes, bars, wheels etc.

 So really you need to size it for 2 seasons from now and then try to get more than a year out of it before it becomes a hand-me down or gets resold.

 Yes this is the issue we have currently, transitioning from 24 to 26-27.5. Would like him to spend a year on a dialed in 26 bike but by the time something is available he'll be ready to move up to 27.5. Should've jumped on a Primus or Minor Threat when we had the chance.

 my thoughts as well, bike centipede

 I'm speaking as someone who's owned two commencal meta 4x bikes which have been probably the most fun bikes to ride ive owned

 Isn't the axle on the seat stay?

 @SleepingAwake: I think it actually is. In defense of @eicca, I also didn't see where the separation was between the dropout and the stays at first either. The highly-placed pivot threw me off and I thought it was a single-pivot at first.

 Been available for awhile. You can start them on Stacyc and move them all the way up to full size bikes running only e-bikes. Ben E Bike has 24's.

 Commencal has been selling a kids E-Bike hardtail for a couple of years now...unfortunately. But maybe an E-Bike for a kid actually makes sense. I can't tell lol

 on their page they say third quarter 2022.......................basically in a year.........

 When you refresh the page it shows a price briefly...unsure if that's the real price tho. Says 3199$ for the 24". 3499$ for 26". 3699$ for the 27.5/26 XS. It'll be close to that I'm sure.

Also note that their shipping was like 140$ for us when we bought one a few years ago. I'm not sure if that's still the same but it was spendy.

 @darok: Thx. That ain't gonna work for me. I'll need something by March. Dang.

 @Svinyard: Seems about right for what those are so it probably is. Sneaky move finding those. Ha! Nice work.

Yeah I think I paid like $60 for shipping on my kids 16". Freaking bike's only gonna last him like 3 months. LOL! Gonna need that 20" faster than I though. Fortunately I already have one for him. Spawn.

Looks like the Juliana Furtado is gonna be my choice after all. Doubt I can get one of those in the next 4 months either though. LOL! But at least I can get an order in. Waiting on after summer to order means 2023 to get the bike. At that point I'll need a standard small or medium. Crazy trying to buy bikes for kids right now. By the time you get them they've grown out of them.

 @onemanarmy: by March will be tough...Depending on the kids size I see the Propain Yuma or the Tyee AL; I consider the Tyee in small...but both are currently set to end of march..

 Single pivot four bar, I meant.

 Horst has a pivot on the chainstay, this one is on the seat stay