Devinci Wilson Carbon - First Ride

Mar 29, 2016
by Olly Forster  


There's no escaping the fact that a downhill bike's desirability rests heavily upon the trophy cabinet behind it - a statement which is certainly backed up by the bikes we regularly see in lift queues around the world. Jostled amongst the sea of V10's, Session's, Demo's and Glory's is the Devinci Wilson, a once obscure bike from a brand that until recently, was relatively unheard of outside of its native Canada. But even amongst these icons of DH racing, the Wilson represents a special bike having played an integral role in catapulting both Stevie Smith's career from that of an up-and-coming downhill racer to a World Cup champion, while simultaneously introducing Devinci Cycles to the world. The power of the podium is undeniably hard to ignore in a sport built upon racing, but unlike the other bikes mentioned here, a 27.5" carbon DH bike from this small yet determined brand from Quebec has seemingly been late to the party, until now...


Devinci Wilson Carbon - First Ride


Devinci Wilson Carbon - First Ride

Details:

• Intended use: downhill racing / freeride
• Travel: 200mm front and 204mm rear
• 27.5" wheels
• 63.2° head angle
• 435mm chainstays
• 12 x 150mm rear spacing
• Carbon main frame and seatstay
• Split Pivot Suspension System
• 2.5" Tire clearance
• Internal cable routing
• Integrated fork bumpers
• Carbon skid plate
• Asymmetrical construction
• Sizes: S, M, L, XL
• Weight: 35.08lb/16.04kg size large

PRICES - USD / CAD / GBP:

• Carbon XP: $4659 / $5399 / £3499.99
• Carbon RC: $5959 / $6799 / £4199.99
• Carbon SL: $7759 / $8799 / £5499.99
• Carbon frame: $3359 / $3899 / £2999.99


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
Is this the best looking Wilson to date? It certainly carries an air of purpose as far as the looks go and the production colours for the SL are especially nice too - check it out in the gallery.


Plastic Fantastic

So why does manufacturing frames with carbon fiber really matter, after all, there has been a good helping of accomplished alloy DH bikes out there skirting around the more than reasonable 36-37lb weight mark - including the alloy Wilson - for some time now and at a fraction of the price. And with the increased consistency in alloy tube manufacturing, not to mention the advantages posed by hydroforming and the extra expense associated with carbon, do we really need to embrace carbon for DH frame production? Using carbon does however allow for a heightened degree of finite innovation over alloy, at least as far as shape and ride feel go, two elements which can really make the difference for an elite rider pushing the limits, but equally easy to get wrong for the average rider who will never stare down the smoking barrel of a World Cup DH track.


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
Being unrestricted by the confines of tubes and multiple welds, bike designers can really go to town with designing frames that are made in a mould - the Wilson's asymmetrical design in all of its curvy beauty.


After a brief hiatus from the carbon DH bike scene and with the 26" carbon Wilson still firmly in our cerebral cortex, it was only a matter of time before Devinci released an updated 27.5" offering, manufactured using this wonder material. And here it is, Devinci's latest gravity machine, taking the geometry and overall silhouette directly from the alloy Wilson, which coincidentally already has a carbon seatstay. The only really new element here is a fully carbon main frame.

Split Pivot

As with the rest of Devinci's full-suspension range, the Wilson utilises the 'Split Pivot' system. This is essentially a single pivot design with a linkage driven shock, intended to deliver the best attributes of both a single pivot and a linkage design in one. Providing both increased grip under braking forces thanks to the concentric dropout pivot, while also delivering increased acceleration due to the heightened degree of anti-squat (the suspension stiffens up as you put the power down), the Wilson bares all the hallmarks of a bike with a racing pedigree.


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak


Yet the Wilson's Split Pivot layout looks quite unlike that of any other, utilising an additional component in the shape of the 'control link' - a CNC machined link which concentrically floats around the BB and connects the shock to the swingarm. Designed to add an additional element of adjustment for the engineers with regards to the Wilson's overall kinematics, it also delivers an additional amount of appropriate stiffness between the swingarm and the main frame.

Options

With three complete builds on offer, ranging from the top-flight SL model sporting a full SRAM X01 7-Speed drivetrain, BoXXer World Cup fork and Easton's all-singing and all-dancing Havoc DH wheel set, Schwalbe's go-to DH rubber; the Magic Mary and an aptly Canadian cockpit in the shape of Chromag's carbon 35mm BZA bar and stem combo. The next one down is the RC, suitably packed with a 10-Speed SRAM X9 and Shimano mix drivetrain, BoXXer Team forks, DT Swiss wheels, Maxxis High Roller tyres and a Truvativ cockpit. Last, but not least is the XP, dishing out a SRAM X7 drivetrain and a BoXXer RC fork. A frameset is also available and the addition of an XL size is a welcome sight as well. We had the pleasure of spending a bit of time on the top end SL model and duly headed to some local DH tracks to see how it fared...


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
The carbon bash guard on the down tube is far from the prettiest out there, but it means business.
Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
The integrated fork bumpers which double up as cable guides are a nice touch.


Getting to Grips with the Wilson Carbon

Opting for a size large, conceding that the XL would be a step too far, I really was expecting something a little more modern in the size department, especially for what is essentially a 2017 bike. At a less than gigantic 5'9" I felt cramped with the 436mm of reach on offer and rather devoid of the space I'm used to. With an increasing number of AM bikes skirting around the 460mm number for a similarly sized bike, not to mention the rising tide of new DH bikes thankfully following suit, I can't help but think that Devinci missed a crucial opportunity here with regards to sizing and dynamic ergonomics. It is nice however to see a continuous standover height across the size range, but similarly disappointing to see the same with regards to stack height, forcing taller riders to increase the number of spacers under their top crown or stem to achieve the correct stack height for their 'rangey' dimensions, which ultimately robs them of crucial mm's in the reach department. The rest of the geometry is however pretty much on point and like all things, sizing is hugely subjective and preferential.


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
The Wilson's low centre of gravity made itself abundantly clear inspiring confidence in steep corners.


With the SL model sporting a wish list of parts, it made focusing on the Wilson Carbon's ride characteristics in the short space of time available that much easier. That said, the addition of the SRAM Guide Ultimate brakes was a welcome sight - easily one of the best brakes currently on the market right now. And the superbly predictable and highly versatile Schwalbe Magic Mary's - a tyre that no less helped Stevie Smith to win his first World Cup in Hafjell, Norway in 2012 - were also another note worthy addition. After setting up the suspension with the appropriate sag, retaining the 3 tokens in the RockShox BoXXer World Cup forks, a 400lb spring in the Vivid shock and cutting the 800mm wide bars down to a more favourable (for me) 780mm, we headed out to see how the Carbon Wilson would perform. It's a fast bike, there's no denying that, but what's equally as apparent, if not more so, is the stiffness. The noticeable tide of feedback resonating through the frame over small, successive hits was apparent from the offset and quite possibly amplified by the suitably stiff 35mm carbon bars. While an exceptionally stiff chassis like this will benefit a rider with surgical like precision and the ability to hit all their lines time after time and with pin-point accuracy, most of us simply don't have the necessary skills to take advantage of such attributes. The other issue is that of comfort, which over a long and rough track, could be substantially hampered by such a stiff frame.


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
The Wilson might be a 'wheels on the ground' bike, but it can handle gaps and large impacts with ease...
Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
The lack of reach certainly hampered my ability - at least in the short term - to immediately jump on the new Wilson and feel comfortable.


Opening up the Wilson on faster sections of trail however was an eye opening experience and only reverberated its race caliber. Pushing through and over undulations in the trail and hitting lines with a degree of precision, the Wilson didn't struggle to gain speed and retain it, thankfully lacking the pedal kickback associated with the Split Pivot's ability to generate chain growth under load. Power transfer and acceleration were also suitably on the money - another trait of the Split Pivot system at work. Carrying speed through corners was another highlight, delivering an effective amount of grip and control, which was only boosted further by the ample standover height. Getting the Wilson airborne didn't represent any huge degree of difficulty, although it did require some additional gusto to man handle it in a chosen direction, instead preferring to keep its wheels on the ground and the speed constant.


Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak
Devinci Wilson Carbon - Simon Nieborak


Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesHave Devinci added that extra special something to an already proven bike by offering a carbon main frame? It's certainly lighter at over a pound less than its alloy brethren and it's definitely stiffer too, but these attributes firmly put the new Wilson Carbon within the crosshairs of those who want speed over comfort. Like its predecessors, the latest Wilson doesn't hang about when pointed down hill and now with the carbon option, Devinci have a grand total of six DH bikes to choose from. More options for more riders isn't a bad thing, but the ultimate question here will be whether or not you actually need a carbon DH frame over that of a cheaper and nearly identical alloy frame. - Olly Forster


Visit the feature gallery for high resolution and additional images




MENTIONS: @devinci





210 Comments

  • + 347
 So many beautiful carbon DH bikes, so little actual personal need for such a bike.
  • + 47
 pinkbike has informed me I've already given props to this post. I would sincerely give more if I could.
  • + 35
 Indeed; Also note, that the 120 mm Fuji XC-Trail bike in the other review was tested on seemingly a way rougher terrain than this beast.
  • + 9
 I honestly wonder if I'll ever own a downhill bike again.
  • + 57
 This bike doesn't look badd, per se, but the 26" wilson carbon was the most beautiful bike ever made in my opinion. This one lost all those sweet lines.
  • + 15
 I concur. The original wilson had some style never seen before or since. The 275 version still looks good... but not as good as the original.
  • + 19
 Just look at that thing:

p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/2/photos/61336/s780_SS_n3x1176.jpg?1376270663

Also that mustache and handsome face sure help
  • + 15
 Jaame, I might have to disagree with you on that, not exactly pretty. i1.mtbx.com.ar/foto/o/11/03/1103000558_frerider.JPG
  • + 10
 Shit, I went back too far and pinkbike wont let me edit. dhnorthshore.free.fr/Bikes/DevinciWilson2006.jpg
  • + 0
 You cats must not live on the right coast. Every spot I go to serves up big bike gnar-burgers on a silver platter. Of the 15 or so places that I frequent for my gravity fix, I would ride my trail-am-enduro bike at two of them.
  • + 1
 You got me, scr248
  • + 0
 The non-drive side rear swingarm ruins the whole bike for me other than that monstrosity I love it
  • + 0
 Yes. It was definitely a mistake, aesthetically speaking.
  • + 1
 Indeed. It resembles a....

TREK SESSION!!!

The session 10, to be exact. Take a look! www.moredirt.com/bikes/34547_2.jpg
  • + 4
 @hamncheez: agreed. Such beautiful lines. So many other bikes look good, but the previous generation Wilson, to me, is perfect. It also is one of my favorite bikes to ride.
  • + 103
 No bottle mounts, not interesed
  • + 22
 I knew there was something...
  • + 87
 Don't worry champ, you can keep that bottle on your fanny pack.
  • - 9
flag vokes (Mar 29, 2016 at 6:50) (Below Threshold)
 and say cool by wearing your spandex Smile
  • + 46
 Hm, somewhat of a half empty glass here Olly? I'm by no stretch a Devinci fan boy (even though i used to be on a 26 carbon wilson), but the review seems a bit negative to say the least. Perhaps it is just me reading it first thing in the morning...

Reach; the bike is on par with the normal crop of North American downhill bikes such as the V-10, M16, Aurum, and is a cm shorter than a Demo (albeit with a 15mm shorter stack, so the difference is larger in real life). Seemingly, only the main crop of euro or WC developed (fury/phoenix) bikes with their slightly longer geos is substantially longer - a trend easily mitigated by just jumping up one size. Did you just pick the wrong size Olly seemingly overemphasizing the size name over the actual figures, or did you just not look at the geo numbers before you chose a bike? While i agree that race bikes could benefit from a longer chassis, most riders would prob get along with these numbers just fine. Lastly, the bike is seemingly designed to be ridden with the lowers lowered all the way with the crowns slammed onto the frame, so riding with spacers - as you put it - would effectively steepen the bike making the reach longer at the head tube - though i am uncertain as to if the handlebar would be greatly affected. I am sure you measured right?

Secondly; "thankfully lacking the pedal kickback associated with the Split Pivot's ability to generate chain growth under load." Say what? Since when are single pivots optimized to run with a specific size chain ring prone to develop excessive chain growth? Simply put - they are not.

Thirdly; i'm sure you did, but did you play around with the dampeners to mitigate the feedback from the very rigid chassis? I know getting the base settings correct has been something DW has been pretty conscious of previously, noting that Dev's carbon offerings have been substantially stiffer than their alloy bikes necessitating other comp settings. But it is an interesting point none the least.
  • + 10
 re: Reach - I though that part was a little off myself, especially for North American bikes. AM/Enduro bikes have been getting ridiculously long but DH bikes have lagged quite a bit. I picked up a medium Tues whose reach which is longer than a large SC v10. At 430mm reach, it's still on the shorter side for a modern AM bike but it feels about perfect given the wheelbase and head angle of a DH rig - and at 6ft I'm not exactly small. I can't imagine the average rider being aggressive enough to keep the weight where it needs to be on a bike that was longer still.
  • + 8
 Well put. It baffled me that the 2014-2015 devinci Troy was slammed for being so short yet reviews of shorter Santa Cruz bikes wouldn't mention the length. Similarly, reviews of bikes with the same reach measurement made it to bike of the year sort list. I also agree that no bike designer considers the level of anti squat they build into the linkage design to be excessive, regardless of the linkage complexity and marketing lingo.
  • + 8
 A lot of Pinkbike users do complain about how nothing on this site gets a bad review, if anything I thought this was refreshingly honest.

Regarding the reach, I would have thought a size large bike for a 5'9" rider would be ample, I'm fairly sure that Devinci did not intend their XL size for riders that short. As for the other bikes you have quoted: The M16C does have the same reach but was also reviewed on here as being a little on the sort size for the large, although by a rider 2" taller. The large V10 does have a shorter reach but it's not their second largest frame (they do an XL and an XXL), the XL has a reach of 446mm, 10mm longer. The trend of bikes getting longer doesn't seem to be slowing and it would make sense to future-proof a carbon bike with the expense of making moulds.
  • + 5
 I think the reviewer must have abnormally long arms. 5'9" on a bike with a reach of 436mm should be damn near perfect.
  • + 5
 @klinkekule this is the best comment I've seen in a while. I had to double check whether I was on the internet!
  • + 5
 17.7 inch reach on an XL is too short in my opinion. As a 6'1 rider with relatively long arms and nearly optimal mobility, my bike with 17.4 inch reach feels too short to get as low and aggressive as I'd like to get. I feel an XL should be at least 18 inches in reach and maybe even 19. That's just my opinion though. I use a 25mm spank DM stem with my cockpit(edit: and the matching 800mm spank bars uncut, holding the edges of my palms just a hair over the ends of the grips) and I feel that it provides the handling characteristics that are going to become what is considered optimal for racing.

I understand I'm making very opinionated statements, so take it with a grain of salt. I just wouldn't buy this bike based on the reach alone since it's THE most important number in my opinion.
  • + 3
 I also have rather long arms for my hight and used to really stuggle finding bikes that would fit me as getting a bike with a long enough reach would come with a seat tube that was way to high. Probably why I'm enjoying bikes getting longer and keeping a faily consistant seat tube length.
  • + 1
 All mountain bikes need longer frames in order to compensate for the lack of stability of less travel. Bernat Guardia, who raced for intense last year, is like 6'4 and he rides a large m16c
  • + 2
 @kleinblake one could argue that DH racers at the top level need longer frames in order to compensate for the lack of stability that comes with using extremely stiff suspension. I never heard of Bernat Guardia, but Aaron Gwin uses a large yt tues(450mm reach, same as xl wilson) and he is like 5'8.
  • + 1
 Bernat raced professionally for the past 15 years and he retired after world champs last year, where he got 36th on a pretty cruised out run
  • + 5
 @kleinblake AG1, most gwinningest racer I ever known.

edit - anyway I mean no disrespect toward Bernat. He's cool. I watched his enduro edit I think, but people run all sorts of setups. You could use any professional rider's geometry preferences to prove any point you wanted since there's all types for some reason.
  • + 0
 a large felt cramped to a 5'9" rider....wow, that's a fail. Sure others have run similar sizing(Santa Cruz) but sc has since lengthened em slightly.
  • + 4
 @klinkekule

I too was somewhat confused by the "lack of pedal kickback that sp's are prone to comment. Even more so after he had mentioned that the bike had "a heightened degree of anti squat" to help with putting power down.

A) sp's arent particularly prone to pedal feedback compared to any other design
B) the anti squat comment completely contradicts the pedal feedback comment. They cant both be true?!?!

Another point I was somewhat bemused by was when he said this:

"Yet the Wilson's Split Pivot layout looks quite unlike that of any other, utilising an additional component in the shape of the 'control link' - a CNC machined link which concentrically floats around the BB and connects the shock to the swingarm

It's called a rocker, and I think you will find every split pivot under the sun has one....

Whats up with that, pinkbike?
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9

yeah but it's implemented in a very different way on the wilson. Concentric pivots that rotate around both the rear axle and the bb. Some qualities can be difficult to quantify. It sounds like woo and maybe it is, but not all linkages drive the shock shaft equally. Not all linkages rotate around the pivot points with equal efficiency. Some designs are much smoother than others. If a design is smoother rotating, then it will be more reliable and have longer service intervals.

The wilson is really sick. I wish they did the geo better. linkagedesign.blogspot.ca/2015/11/devinci-wilson-275-2016.html
  • + 2
 Yep that anti squat bit had me confused.
  • + 2
 @bigburd to explain the graphs in that website, the beginning of the travel has very high anti-squat, and you don't get much pk in the beginning anyway so it's fine. Then the anti squat curve dives down as bike is deeper in its travel. So when you are taking big hits and not pedaling, the anti squat is low so pedaling is bad but that doesn't matter because it makes pedal kickback really low and you're not pedaling at that point anyway. 6 degrees in total. But!! since it has ~100% anti-squat values at around 30-40% travel, the pedalling efficiency is super good.

This is an example of a linkage design where there is NO compromise. It is literally flawless. Could be better, but you can't fault it.
  • + 0
 If you have highest anti squat at 30-40% travel, this is also where pedal kickback affect will be highest. You can't have your cake and eat it. I am not questioning the design of the bike, it is a reasonably good bike, with no serious flaws other than perhaps the unforgiving frame. I haven't spent a huge amount of time riding one myself, but have heard similar comments from many people, and have certainly noted when watching top pro's ride them a certain lack of reliable rear end traction which I have always attributed to its lack of compliance. What I am questioning is the claim that it offers awesome pedaling attributes while at the same time having low pedal feedback. This simply is not a feature it is possible to build into a frames kinematics. You can try and create this effect with funky shock tunes, but that is a different matter altogether. It bothers me that reviews on a website as popular and lucrative as Pinkbike show such a lack of understanding. It is misleading for the vast number of people who look to reviews on this website to help them decide what to spend serious amounts of money on.
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 man some people's kids. Look at the graph. It's not like the metal can turn into a liquid and move on a different plane than the pivots/linkages enable it to. It moves one way. During pedaling, you have 2-4 degrees of pedal kickback, and in the deepest part of the travel, it goes to 6 degrees. That is the maximum value. Contrary to the misinformation you are expressing. And you try to say I am being misleading.
  • + 3
 what the hell are you on about now?
Of course the maximum value is at maximum travel! The important question is where the highest rate of increase is. You really don't get this do you. pedal feedback IS anti squat. Where pedal induced anti squat is high, pedal feedback is high.
  • + 1
 is 2-4 degrees something you can honestly consider high? Ok then, I'll give you this one.
  • + 3
 Nope, I think the Wilson is a good frame, and that amount of pedal kickback is perfectly reasonable. I just have an issue with a professional reviewer stating that a frame has good pedal induced anti-squat so it pedals like a demon, yet at the same time has very little pedal feedback. That is a self contradictory statement. Anyway, I really don't wanna get into an argument about this, I'm tired. Razz
  • - 4
flag banjberra (Mar 29, 2016 at 15:53) (Below Threshold)
 I know, you should take a rest. Here's why it's not a contradictory statement: the values of anti-squat are 100% at the point in your wheel travel that you are going to be pedaling at, but since david weagle is kind of an engineering genius he was able to limit the PK to 2-4 degrees at that point in the travel. The anti squat dives steeply for when the drivetrain is not going to be engaged because of the gnargnar and big hits. You don't pedal through the rough stuff if you're riding like you mean it. The PK is greater even though the anti squat is lower, but that's just what happens when you go through a lot of travel. That increase is MINIMIZED through engineering! I can't really explain how DW managed that, my brother probably could. But look at the values. He did what you state is impossible. It's really for real.

I am not arguing with you I am informing you, you are the only one who believes you have an argument.

edit - sorry I didn't give you this one in the end. I had a change of heart.
  • + 4
 Oh for gods sake...I tried to be nice. Don't really see why you chose to be a dick about it.
Pedal feedback IS anti-squat. You can not have one without the other, because they are the same thing. Your suspension doesnt magically drop into deep travel/low anti-squat zone just because you are in the rough. It will spend just as much of its time extended almost to top out as the wheel drops into holes, guess what that causes, pedal feedback. A bike either pedals efficiently or has low pedal feedback. Not both.
  • + 2
 @gabriel-mission9 Yeah I don't know why either I'm tired too. We've been going back and forth on like 2 or 3 different topics and it's a mess LOL. Let's agree to disagree on this one. No hard feelings. Sorry I was a dick.
  • + 5
 We clearly both spend a lot of time thinking about these things. That is a good thing. It also leads to the occasional knocking of heads. Yeah, no hard feelings. Sorry if I was offensive at any point.
  • + 3
 @gabriel-mission9 Smile passion is a double edged sword. No worries at all.
  • + 3
 How civilised.
  • + 1
 @hangdogr: reach can be lengthened by way of a works components headset. I believe 8 extra mm of reach
  • + 24
 Alloy frames get recycled, carbon frames end up in landfills. In an interview on PB with Banshee Bikes that was one of the reasons they said that they have yet to use it. The hell with the planet I want to save 1 pound on the weight of my bike?
  • + 18
 That's a silly reason I bet the residual carbon from RECYCLED paper materials from the average household, monthly, is equal or close to that of carbon bikes one would have end up in the landfill in their lifetime.
  • + 9
 carbon doesn't have to be about saving weight. It could be about making it stronger gram for gram. Instead road bike influence is still doing it's thang. I wonder when the mtb industry will clue in on the fact that DH riders aren't weight weenies. We want burly bikes that feel like they really can slay anything. We have the technology!!
  • + 20
 Such slack. Much reach So wow
  • + 2
 Oh k then.
  • + 11
 Such pinkbike. Much comment. So wow.
  • + 11
 "So what you talking bout Wilson!"
You almost went full carbon frame, added a light Boxxer but no Air Shox!!??
  • + 7
 The original wilson was designed to use a coil shock.
  • + 4
 wilson's linkage is so progressive lol, pretty much have to use coil unless you're the nerd I want to be; experimenting with high sag low psi air shocks on very progressive linkages.
  • + 2
 I'm hopefully getting a spartan in the next few days, & I'm very curious how it would ride with a coil. @andrextr 's linkage videos show it being near the top of this list for progressiveness in Enduro bikes, makes me think it might do well with a coil.
  • + 1
 @groghunter linkagedesign.blogspot.ca/2014/06/devinci-spartan-650b-2015.html

This website is really informative if you can learn to understand the graphs. 1.bp.blogspot.com/-uvICxL2jPf8/VHO8VBxJcuI/AAAAAAAAU5Q/SvjjTaLC9WU/s1600/Devinci%2BSpartan%2B%5BLow%5D%2B2015_LevRatio.gif

I'm not sure if they changed the LR much but for the 2015 model it is really sensitive at the beginning stroke, then goes linear/regressive for the ending stroke. That means you'd have to run a stiffer coil than if it were a purely progressive curve. If you like running your suspension stiff then you'd probably like it, since the beginning stroke is sensitive. You'd have to use more rebound damping than compression but that's fine. It's always going to be a trade-off of performance characteristics/suitable stiffness levels/favouring air or coil/damping balance. But it all works out in the end as long as you have the system set up to work together as it is designed to. You can't make any bike ride how you want it to ride. You have to understand how each linkage design effects the suspension's characteristics if you want to get what you want on a very deep level. It would be sick in my opinion. I like stiff suspension a lot. This is all my opinion and I'm just trying to give you some perspective, do whatever u think is right
  • + 2
 Thanks @banjberra . so first of all fwiw, it's the same bike for 2016, just different colorways, though it's widely speculated we'll see a redesign next fall, as the Spartan & the Wilson are the only FS bikes they have left with shorter reach numbers. linkagedesign is blocked at work, but if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, the bottom of the travel is fairly optimized for the progressiveness of the ending stroke of an air shock(though, I guess the question is more HOW regressive/linear) so I'd be seeing some challenges in setting up the damper & not having issues of blowing through the last 10%.
  • + 2
 Oh, & you'd be correct that I'm a stiffer spring, less damping kinda guy.
  • + 1
 Sensitive at the beginning, then linear/regressive at the end? Erm, this makes no sense. If the stroke is regressive, then the beginning of the stroke is going to be the hardest part... This is why most frames are moving towards being quite progressive these days. It allows a sensitive beginning stroke without being too easy to bottom out.
  • + 3
 sure, if it's a consistent leverage ratio across the stroke of the shock, but isn't the point of basically all linkages to allow tuning the leverage ratio to be variable at different points in the travel? for instance, you compensate for the progressiveness of an air shock by lowering leverage ratio deeper in the travel.
  • + 2
 err, that should read increasing the leverage ratio deeper in the travel, not lowering.
  • + 0
 thats what regressive means, a leverage ratio that drops over the course of the stroke. progressive means the leverage ratio increases. Sure a curve can do all sorts of things, being progressive in places and regressive in others, however if a frame offers a suspension action that is very sensitive early in the stroke, it must, by definition stiffen up later on. either that or have more travel than its competitors.
  • + 1
 Spartan is 165mm. an awful lot of their competitors are marketing 160mm or less for the same application.
  • + 0
 Yeah I meant more like 200mm vs 160. 5mm isn't gonna make any noticeable difference. If what banjberra is trying to say is that the linkage is highly progressive at first, then regressive in the last 1/4 of travel or something, then yes that is possible. However a curve like this would feel absolutely awful on a coil shock. The mid stroke would be excessively hard and overdamped, but you would bottom out very easily on bigger hits. This sort of curve would only suit air shocks.
  • + 1
 also, I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that suspension curves have to be symmetrical, after all, the way the linkage alters leverage is by actualy changing the length of the "lever" wheel input has to compress the shock. no reason why a linkage couldn't offer more leverage on either side of it's "tipping point" (my technical vernacular fails me here, but I mean the point within the travel at which it offers the least increase in leverage.) tune that tipping point to be mid travel, & you'd have increased leverage at both the top & the bottom of the stroke. tune it to be 3/4s of the way though the stroke & the suspension will activate quickly, but not gain the same increased leverage at ending stroke.
  • + 0
 I never said they had to be symmetrical? They can be whatever shape you want. However if they are soft and linear at first, then regressive towards the end as banjberra seemed to be saying, you are going to end up with way more travel out of the same stroke length shock, or putting a shorter harder shock on to bring your travel back to where you want it. However at this point you are back to square one as far as suspension "feel" goes, and your shock is going to get a lot hotter...
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 just look at the curve. You are mistaken. It turns linear-regressive around the 120mm mark I would hardly call that the last 1/4 of travel since the first 25-35% of the travel is taken up by sag. It's not so clear cut as you're making it out to be.

There are some really messed up leverage ratios out there. Just because it is regressive doesn't mean it's not only mildly. I also said linear/regressive, which is what it is. Linear/regressive is very different than regressive.

@groghunter ninjaedit- you were right about the LR going lower as the bike goes deeper into the travel on a progressive linkage. A lower LR value means the suspension takes more force to move.
  • - 1
 I would call 120mm bang on the money 1/4 from the end of 160mm of travel...Seeing as I haven't even looked at the curve (I was talking about suspension theory rather than any particular bike) I'd say that was a damn good guess on my part..

You said it was very sensitive at the beginning, then linear/regressive. What that means is it is very sensitive at first, then gets more sensitive. Which basically means your spring is too soft....
  • + 2
 @banjberra understanding that it would be more ideal for a coil to to be more progressive at the end stroke, since the spring itself isn't, & you need progressivity from somewhere in order to avoid bottoms outs, or have I got that backwards?
  • + 0
 @groghunter that dude is a turd who is only speaking out of baseless confidence. He just admitted to not looking at the graphs lol. What a waste of my time to engage with him. Anyway, it would work with a coil is all I am saying. It's better to use air shock for that specific design, but the coil would work and a lot of people really love coil suspension over air. Personally I'd use air. But you won't catch me on an enduro bike so it doesn't matter and I'd use float x2 for dh bike every day no matter what. I just wanted to give you some knowledge so you could make your own informed decision.

edit- to make coil work, you would have to use a stiff enough spring to avoid bottom outs, little to no low speed compression as the stiffness of the coil would be enough for a stable pedaling platform with the way the anti-squat is, enough rebound to tame the forces of the stiffer spring, and a few clicks of high speed compression to add a bit of progressivity to the end. Since it's a stiffer coil you won't need much.
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 what I understand him to be saying, without spelling it out, is that the mid travel is more progressive than the beginning or ending stroke. He's assuming that you understand that he's remarking on the parts of the stroke that are different from the rest of the travel.
  • + 0
 I don't need to look at the curve to see you have no idea what you are talking about...Yes it would work with a coil. It would work if you put a rubber band in there. However if it is linear/regressive as you claim, it's gonna feel pretty crap with a coil.
  • + 2
 @banjberra Well air is what I'll be using regardless, as I'm getting the RS, & I have much higher priorites on my list of upgrades, primarily those narrow, cheap wheels.

I was thinking I might switch to a coil for bike park days, primarily. The more I look at it, however, I think I'd be better off going with a Vivid air for those days, than to a coil.
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 you're the expert of baseless naysaying and I'll give you that much.

@groghunter I was assuming he actually looked at the graph before engaging in a conversation about the specific values listed in the graph LOL. Know-it-all objectivists make me feel silly inside.

edit - and yeah air is sick. Just coil is also so sick. Feels so good. Could switch to a vivid air/float x2 altogether and it'd be sick.
  • + 1
 ok.
if he is saying it is sensitive at the beginning (which he did) this suggests it is more sensitive at the beginning than elsewhere in the stroke. This is called a progressive stroke. he then says is linear/regressive. So lets imagine what he is attempting to say is that it begins with a progressive curve for (at a guess cos he's given us nothing to work with) about half the travel, then linear, then regressive for the last 1/4 (then one bit of info he did give, when he said the regressive part started at the 120mm mark, although he then tried to deny that this was the last 1/4 cos of something to do with sag that was simply confused)

This would be a progressive to linear to regressive curve. This will suit an air shock pretty nicely, but is basically exactly the opposite of what you would want, in order to get good performance out of a coil.
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 he wondered whether it would work with a coil or not and I gave him as much information as I possibly could about the viability of using a coil shock on that specific linkage design. You come in here acting like an expert and you still haven't even looked at the shape of the leverage ratio's curve.

Are you one of those internet trolls?

edit- here's the link I referenced earlier that you somehow missed 1.bp.blogspot.com/-uvICxL2jPf8/VHO8VBxJcuI/AAAAAAAAU5Q/SvjjTaLC9WU/s1600/Devinci%2BSpartan%2B%5BLow%5D%2B2015_LevRatio.gif

imagine that. I already posted it and you missed it.
  • + 1
 oh god. I've looked at the graph now. Its progressive to linear. So (a) his theory is waaaaaaaaay off irrespective of what particular bike or curve he thinks he is talking about and (b) he doesn't even know how to read a bloody chart.
  • + 0
 @gabriel-mission9 or you just don't understand terminology and didn't bother to read the values before running your mouth like an ignorant bloke.
  • + 1
 Tbh I just saw this sentence

"I'm not sure if they changed the LR much but for the 2015 model it is really sensitive at the beginning stroke, then goes linear/regressive for the ending stroke. That means you'd have to run a stiffer coil than if it were a purely progressive curve. If you like running your suspension stiff then you'd probably like it, since the beginning stroke is sensitive"

and thought it was worth pointing out that a shock stroke cant be most sensitive at the beginning then linear/regressive for the rest. Sorry it seems to have turned into such a shitstorm.
  • + 1
 It's cool, we're only talking about bikes. You're the one who dismissed the values we were referring to. Sorry you made a mistake, don't worry too much about it. I shouldn't have called you an ignorant bloke either. Sorry for that buddy.
  • + 1
 I do understand the terminology. Had you said its progressive to linear, I wouldn't have "run my mouth" cos you wouldn't have been wrong...
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 you see how it hooks up at the last 10mm? That's the regressive part of the linear/regressive. The leverage ratio starts to shift from progressive to linear/regressive at the 100-120mm mark, as you can see by how the steepness of the curve settles down really fast into linear which changes to regressive at the last 10mm. This is why it is called a progressive to linear/regressive curve. Even if it is only slightly regressive for the last 10mm. It is still regressive. We do not look at the values, but the shape of the curve. It all matters but when defining how it acts as it moves through the stroke you have to go off the shape of the curve.
  • + 1
 That curve falls well within the boundaries of "linear" from about 100-110mm onwards. the change in rate is 0.04 of a mm at the shock, per mm at the wheel. To put that in perspective, thats about 1/2 to 1/4 the thickness of a human hair. I think we can safely ignore that..
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 I know that's what I literally just said.

semantics people! they are funny and cause constant conflict! Poor humanity! Arguing the same points differently! When will we ever get along?!
  • + 1
 you said it was regressive, I am saying its linear, thats not semantics. anyway, i think this argument is over. I apologise if it pissed you off.
  • + 0
 @gabriel-mission9 You are dumbing down your terminology to make it easier to understand. I have a problem with that. That's all I have a problem with. You are also calling my complete and correct terminology wrong without having referred to the values beforehand. This argument only happened because you ignored the points I raised on top of responding after reading ONE point I brought up, completely disregarding all the context attached to it.
  • + 2
 well, I don't know if anybody cares anymore, but I guess that Damien Oton was running a vivid on the bike for whistler: www.pinkbike.com/news/devinci-spartan-damien-oton-whistler-ews-6.html

The question in my mind is, with how much more volume the air spring in the Vivid is compared to the Monarch plus, combined with 40% sag, how he's not bottoming it constantly, what with the last portion of the travel not really providing any progressivity. Maybe just lots of HSC? doesn't sound like a setup I'd be to into.
  • + 2
 @groghunter bottomless tokens!! You have effectively full control over the air chamber volume in dh air shocks. It's sick.
  • + 2
 Ok, yeah, you are right, I admit it. It's 1/4 the width of a human hair worth of regressive...
  • + 1
 @gabriel-mission9 I know I'm right that's why I didn't concede. We didn't have to have this argument. I gave you the evidence. Cheer up bro everyone's got a right to be wrong. We're not talking about anything serious here, there is nothing at stake. Love and peace!
  • + 1
 Lol. you think I'm wrong, thats funny. Keep playing with linkage, you'll work it out eventually.
  • + 2
 ah, so he's reducing it to (probably) close to the same or less volume than the monarch it comes with, but benefiting from better heat management due to larger air can surface & oil volume. got it. this is from 2014, gotta go look & see if he stuck with this setup. after all, I don't think debon air cans were available yet(not that it makes a difference for heat management.)

I really should have known about those bottomless rings. I had a monarch HV that could use them up until I sold the bike two days ago.
  • + 3
 @groghunter sick now you know what your best choice is! Hope you feel more informed than you were before this interaction!

@gabriel-mission9 I already understand linkage completely. My brother and I know how to make a design with perfect kinematics. But talk is cheap and starting a bike company isn't, nor is it worth my effort when companies like devinci are so close to having it perfect. Dialogue is more important than having a pissing contest about who is moar right.
  • + 3
 Yep, pissing contest over. Although, without wanting to start another, I don't believe there is any such thing as perfect kinematics. It is always a compromise. Pedal efficiency or bump eating ability is the usual argument, but there are others. Poppy or ground hugging? Complex or durable? Weight vs stiffness, vs strength. Low unsprung mass or good braking characteristics by putting the brake on a floating member that increases unsprung mass? Everything is a compromise. Its amazing that with so many different (some wildly different) designs out there, wc race times are usually so tight. I'd also love to make my own frame company, and I also couldn't hope to afford it just now :S You know despite the banging of heads, I reckon you and I aint so different.
  • + 1
 I would argue that split pivot's increased mass from decoupling the seatstay is pretty negligible, though. not a lot of extra complexity or reinforcement.
  • + 3
 @gabriel-mission9

Yeah you're right on that one, but let me tickle ur brain. There is such thing as a perfect compromise. The best part about these revelations is that eventually we will be able to understand the characteristics of a bike with objective clarity/full depth, so you will know exactly how the bike behaves before buying it. No more pissing contest over the best linkage design/geometry. When we have fully developed knowledge everyone will just ride the linkage design/geometry that they know they prefer. There are so many styles and designs and riding philosophies. It's very in depth and there are so many viable approaches to get to the top of the podium at the highest level.
  • + 2
 A perfect compromise for a given rider on a given track. But if you're gonna sell units, you have to cater for many different riders, and each one of those riders will ride many different tracks. Even if my personal bike is the perfect compromise for me, I will take it to some tracks where it is more perfect, and some tracks where it is less perfect. I'd love to have a different bike for every track, but that might get expensive...
  • + 2
 and on top of the expenses, you'd have to readapt to the compromises every time you switched the bike. If heaven exists, we'll all go there, and we can shred together on an endless trail with a bike that is perfect in every way hehe. I'd take time out of my eternity to share some shredding with you. Until then all we can do is be passionate about what we love and make the most out of what we got! Glad we shared this dialogue, my friend.
  • + 5
 Is anyone else getting tired of testers complaining that their test bike isn't long enough??? Every test bike that isn't a GT or Mondraker?
You would've been perfectly happy 4 years ago with that size bike, and you know it. You even qualify that statement immediately by saying it's completely subjective. If you (the MTB media) keep it up, all bikes will have the same geometry in a few years until you change your mind and begin longing for a more comfortable upright position.
  • + 4
 nope. Reviews should focus on the negatives and it's crazy to complain about criticism in reviews. We have fought so hard to have more objective and honest reviews. We have them and now people are complaining and being sensitive about hurting devinci's feelings? Jeez. Can't win with the internet.

But Olly, please know that you are doing the right thing and this is one of the best reviews/first rides I've ever read. Never thought I'd say this but I respect the pinkbike first ride feature of this bike more than the vitalmtb one.
  • + 3
 It's crazy how short bikes are still. I had to get an XL Session (reach of 450mm) and I'm only 5'10". I would be on an XL Wilson too which is ridiculous to me.
  • + 3
 @BikeEveryDay
To me, you being on an XL is crazy! I'm 6,1" and averagely proportioned and I still prefer the medium in that bike Razz
To each their own!
  • + 1
 @allix2456 I'm 6'1 and I'd prefer 19 inch reach. We all ride differently but in this case devinci does not offer a size I can accept. Riders who prefer shorter bikes can always go down a size, but there is nothing after XL most of the time. Shout out to santa cruz for doing it right.
  • + 2
 It's also worth pointing out as a criticism of this bike specifically, in that they just released the Hendrix (458,) the new Troy with MUCH longer reach numbers (460 in a large, that's a 25mm increase) & the Django(even longer, 468!) but they chose to do a carbon mold of their "old" reach numbers(436) in the Wilson, meaning we won't be seeing a longer reach redesign of this bike for a few years, or if we do, it will be limited to alu models.

It's widely assumed we'll be seeing a new Spartan in the fall with longer reach as well, so that would leave the Wilson their only FS bike with short reach for quite a while.
  • + 2
 @allix2456 I rode a Large around the parking lot and felt cramped lol, all comes down to personal preference and riding style
  • + 0
 @BikeEveryDay that is crazy because DH bikes feel way longer in parking lots LOL. You must be a ripper.
  • + 2
 @banjberra Only ridden/raced DH one season, I try my best haha. I just like a big bike and like to plow
  • + 0
 @BikeEveryDay so sick. Get on top the podium this year!
  • + 7
 Carbon not worth it? April fools? That is a nice departure from calling us luddites for not wanting the latest stuff.
  • + 7
 I'm confused. Does "internal cable routing" in details means "external cable routing" in facts
  • + 3
 beautiful bike but I'd like to play the advocate here to all carbon DH steeds. I know the weight is just a pound between alloy and carbon but for the average weekend racer how much of a difference does that make when you can lose a pound in other components. My biggest gripe with carbon, and I can't say I wouldn't own one if money was no object, is what happens when you have a crash and start getting stress risers in the frame? I guess what I'm getting at is that the highest levels of racing or even frame sponsored riders is one thing but unless you like throwing money into the wind it seem a little unnecessary to the me. My opinion may be biased having not owned a carbon DH frame but is that being overly cautious? Maybe just don't crash right?
  • + 5
 Watch this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjErH4_1fks
I knew carbon was strong but never really visualized it. I certainly wouldn't have any worries getting a carbon DH bike.
  • + 8
 Simple, buy a Norco and take advantage of the only true lifetime carbon warranty for a mountain bike. Also, you would be incredibly hard pressed to actually damage a carbon frame. Believe it or not but weight is not the primary reason to use carbon. Being a higher density, stronger material that is much easier to shape intricately allows the engineer to keep the weight similar to an alloy frame while vastly increasing rigidity, strength, and stiffness.
  • - 4
flag squarewheel (Mar 29, 2016 at 1:54) (Below Threshold)
 In case of an accident I still prefer a deformed frame over being pierced by a broken piece of a carbon tube.
  • + 0
 Front triangles of Carbon frames are legit in vast majority of cases since materials resilience is built by having thick walls of elements. 1cm thick downwall of downtube? No problem. That unfortuanately cannot be achieved with other bits like swingarms, cranks or particularly: Rims. I take carbon frame gladly, maybe the bar, but other things? Only if you give me replacement for free directly.
  • + 1
 I upgraded to a carbon frame on my current bike from the same bike in alloy, the weight difference was not noticeable at all, however the stiffness was evident as soon as I started riding. Same with alloy to carbon rims. I'm not that good of a rider and the different was noticeable straight out of the gate, especially in technical sections. Having a carbon DH frame would have less to do with weight and more to do with the stiffness of the frame, something that seems to be overlooked a lot. As for durability, I've seen plenty of cracked welds in frames from all manufacturers and dented alloy. I've wrecked my bike a lot and had it smack into things, yet no failures are evident. I would question whether the broken carbon frames everyone talks about broke under circumstances that would cause alloy to fail, also.
  • + 1
 Watching local guides in the south of Spain, they come across their fair share of broken carbon. Curiously, the guides i know stick to alloy.
  • + 5
 Adodero - carbon is surely more durable than alu in vast majority of applications, however not much more durable while being much more expensive. A qualitu alu rim like EX 471 can take a alot of beating, until it meets the rock and dents. Many dents can be straightened to a "that will do" degree. Now same hit can delaminate a carbon rimX perphaps even to a point where it leaks sealant. The crack may not be problematic in reality (I know a dude who rode a cracked LB rim for half of a year until it finally failed to the point of being unusable). The issue is though that even LB rim costs 3 times as much as EX471 rim with next to no weight gain and is traumatically stiff, making your ride feel like you have at least 5 PSI too much in your tyres, while EX471 is stiff enough for pretty much everyone. In such case carbon rims are pretty much useless for anything outside XC racing where 300g carbon rim is stiff as hell and according alu rim is soft as cheese.

So all in all, carbon May be more durable, but not much, while prices are quite high. I don't care if cracked carbon frame can be fixed with epoxy from Tesco, if I pay so much, I don't want to ride a cracked frame. My new bike is carbon but I paid as much as for alu thanks to a good deal. But I wouldn't ride ENVE rims, even if they paid me. Ask guides in Spain or Italy about failure rates in those hellishly rocky biking resorts.
  • + 2
 @yeti951SD The article pretty much says that the alloy is going to be better for most people, and the carbon is only for those who are dang good racers and pros.
  • - 2
 I'd like carbon more if they made it weigh the same as ALU for DH bikes. I'm not really concerned about the weight loss potential so much as the stiffness/durability/reliability potential of carbon. I think that the roadie influence is fading, but we're not there yet.

edit: To me, I don't have any respect for welded aluminium. I broke two quite reputable top end bikes at the headtube junction. Metal mountain bikes are for the history books as far as I am concerned. Carbon bikes could last pretty near forever if done right.
  • + 8
 Banjberra - "if done right" argument is a failed one, always. The only thing that is true is that nothing lasts as much as we wish and there is always compromise. Otherwise we run into those discussions of: Communism would work great if done right, Stalin wasn't a real communist bladi bla. The reality is there are strong and weak alu frames just as there are carbon or steel ones. If Giant Reign in alu weighs less than most 6" carbon frames out there, then it is hard to blame the material itself. a dealer of carbon rims told me once that this and that girl rides them since 2 years. Checked her out, she's 60kgs at worst. i have no clue why "It depends" is such a painful way of looking at the world for so many people, they just won't accept it, they must find out what is the best ever. The fkd up bit is that it's a disease of older males as well as teenagers, I had it in primary school. For sone reason, very few women have it. The reality is that as much as it is all so relative, the definite bit is that carbon is more expensive aaaand there is no source of data anywhere stating whether it is more durable or not. So it's all wishful thinking and post purchase rationalization.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns I'm honoured you responded to my comment!!

Some people just want to strive for perfection, it's not a need, it's a desire. It's all about the journey, since it's a neverending journey as perfection is impossible to achieve. There is such thing as perfection though, you'd just be hard pressed to understand material manipulation/physics deeply enough to make it so unless you were a god.

Point is, it's fun and productive to talk about what could be, even if it might never be.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns I see you're defending Communism again.
  • + 2
 I think that's what i'm getting at is the price is just too high for my skill level, heck even an alloy AM frame could probably take more than I could ever throw at it. I do agree repetitive crashes on either material you should be cautious and watch for possible failure areas. I think that if you were 'nice' to your bike and/or didn't crash carbon would outlast the aluminum frame by far. I'm not a metallurgist but maybe as an aluminum frame ages it tempers more and that in combination with spills over the years is why alloy frames fail. I can say as welder/fabricator for the aerospace industry some manufacturers (sadly many made in the US) have welds that make me wonder what they're smoking in the QC department.
  • + 2
 @enduro86 Yes the carbon shaft is very strong, but if you were to take a sharp object and scrape the surface of both the shafts, the steel would be completely unaffected and the carbon may be weakened beyond safe limits. An alu bike over the course of its lifetime will withstand more abuse that a regular rider would put into it like scratches and small rock hits, whereas a carbon bike may have its strength compromised by those same things.
  • + 1
 @robbiedunks1 Lots of conjecture in ur post, but if you notice there is a trend of bike manufacturers putting large thick plastic skid plates on the downtube. Carbon should still be considered early adopter technology since we haven't worked out all the kinks, but it's definitely the future and it is definitely more durable/reliable. You never saw lifetime warranties with alu bikes really because welds simply have an expiration date in mtb, especially in dh where the vibrational/impact forces are so much greater. Now so many brands are offering lifetime warranties on carbon frames.
  • + 5
 My ultimate biggest problem with carbon parts and frames in cycling is that vast majority of parts and frames look like cheap plastic. If I spend so much extra, I want premium finish. This is what you get with titanium, that unique frosty reflection of pure metal, making it stand out in nature. There is nothing so distinctive in the forest or on the rider so beatifuly reflecting sunlight. Gives me goose bumps. And there's hell of a lot to show with carbon fibers, tiny bit of reflections under clearcoat, giving unique sense of depth. And you can take it further. Companies like Koenigsegg, Prodrive and Hypetex developed colored weaving (true carbon fibre, not some 3M foil for 1996 BMW M3). Google Koenigsegg Trevita. That's why I am so happy to own Antidote Carbon Jack, with outstanding looks. It's something I gladly pay some extra and can stand behind. Car and moto industry knows that very well, but for some reason bike makers, even the most exclusive ones like Enve, Pinarello or Santa Cruz chose to make it look like matte plastic on my 20$ router or gloss covered in graphics worthy of VHS box of porn movie from the 80s.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns it's funny cause I dislike the look of uniform tight glossy weaves lolol. That's the thing about aesthetics, we all see it differently. Uniweave looks really organic and pleasant to my tastes.

Anyway as long as the product is premium I don't care too much about how it looks. As long as the product is premium. The fkd up bit is that it's a disease of all types of humans. Caring too much about the way things look relative to how well they perform/hold up. I had it in primary school.

LOL SORRY. love you waki.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns
The issue with raw carbon is that unless you go for the stereotypical "carbon weave" look that you'd find on the inside of a 2004 Civic (or your Antidote), customers tend to look at it as a blemish. Find yourself a BMC TMR02, or a Norco Valence road bike and you'll see an example of two large companies attempting to do the "raw" look without being gaudy. They both look like a scuffed matte black frame, and neither would be described as beautiful.

As for your Antidote; I'm sure it performs amazingly, but for a company to try to introduce such a cliche look on a mass-market bike would be foolish. I know the world has more than one continent, but in North America that carbon look is associated with big shiny spinner rims, ricer civics, and the occasional Ferrari part. Yes a matte carbon frame can look a bit bland, but colour is whats "in," and a bike manufacturer is in existence to sell bikes.
  • + 4
 Well, sorry 2004 civic or M3 have nothing to do with carbon fibre, rather 20$ per sqm vinyl. And it has to do with a wanker trying to make his shtty car look better. It's the same thing with shtty seatposts from Aliexpress coming at the price of Hussefelt stem. But everyone salivates on genuine CF finish on McLaren or LaFerrari. Because it gives you sense of authenticity. It's a matter of catering to a particular clientelle and I people with that money can appreciate it. Neither Antidote (or TLD with D3 carbon) will hold back because there is some white trash woman going around in fake Gucci glasses and LV bag. It is not easy to make a genuine finish, particularly coloured one (Antidote will try to get that). Look up for the better things in life, not some douche bags. Just because public image of average DHiller is a kid with sht in his head (or a bored 40yr old with advanced midlife crisis) as compared to XCer or a roadie, doesn't mean I am going to shy away from riding in a bike park in case someone familiar sees me there and affiliates me with one of these people. Santa Cruz paint jobs with gigantic ENVE logos scream: I am a huge cock and my bike is more expensive than yours. Well...
  • + 1
 lots of carbon love going on here.

side by side my alum. commencal meta sx flexes less then my buddies devinci spartan carbon......

i got hit by a buddy following me alil to close going down a rough trail and without a doubt i can say the frame would of been trashed. multiple dents in the frame with stress marks all over the paint.

this whole "carbon is best of everything" crap needs to stop. yes modern carbon is stupid strong and much more reliable but the fan boy love fest of it be indestructible is total BS.
  • + 3
 your frame did get wrecked lol(sorry about your bike man, hope it holds up), and you also say "modern carbon is stupid strong and much more reliable".

Nobody is saying it is indestructible, but it's the sickest material available for the sport's demands and stresses. Name one material that surpasses carbon, in consideration of every aspect of bike design/manufacturing/use. It's amazing and we should just be so stoked that carbon is becoming the standard for top end DH frames. Nobody thought it would be strong enough for DH, and now we have carbon DH frames with lifetime warranties.
  • + 2
 could you have carbons dick any further in your mouth?
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns
No, I'm not going to let you simply dismiss my argument.

What I'm saying: The general public looks at the cliche carbon weave look and thinks "That looks tacky, the salesperson says it's high performance but I can't get over the look. I'm going to buy brand X instead so I can get the performance with a decent appearance." Additionally, most of the Ferrari purchases done every year are ego driven and aimed at the image boost it will give them. Very few people look at the carbon on a Ferrari and say "wow, that must give significant performance benefits."

What I'm not saying: That "true" carbon is not an awesome material for performance, that either your bike or your apparent dream car are "bad", that I think vinyl is the same as real carbon, that I think many buyers are educated enough to make their purchases at a level above the emotional "I like the colour and it seems o.k I want that one."

Stop being hypocritical: You're putting yourself on the moral high ground by saying that riders shouldn't care what others think and that they should ride what they love; yet you include "Santa Cruz paint jobs with gigantic ENVE logos scream: I am a huge cock and my bike is more expensive than yours." So if I like the carbon weave look I can ride with you, but if I have ENVE wheels you'll snub me in the lift line? Everyone has their own appearance preferences.

On the topic of carbon helmets: Carbon is a terrible material for helmet design. There is a reason no respectable motorsports driver is using a carbon shelled helmet and that is because they shatter on impact. Sure you have the inner layers that stop the impact, but technologies like MFORGE (used by POC in the new Coron) (and every F1 team) are specifically designed to absorb more of the impact and allows the engineer to reduce the size of the helmet making room for liners such as MIPS. Never understood the TLD craze. Also, the selling feature of TLD helmets is the bright colours, not he carbon weave look. Go find a dealer and ask their most popular models (It's the shiny ones)
  • + 3
 @cptstoney nawh it's all the way down my throat
  • + 2
 @banjberra Dude welds don't have an expiration date. Not sure where you get that info - talking about conjecture - an old alloy bike isn't going to fall apart from regular riding. Carbon is a fiber that is bonded together with glue that offgasses over time like plastic. Aluminum doesn't do this and metal bikes don't often have lifetime warranties because people aren't worried about scratching their bike and needing a new one because of it. Nobody wants to pay 6k+ for a bike and risk ruining it every time they put it in a bike rack, so to ease customer minds, they offer it. I just made that up though I don't know at all really, but aluminum isn't bad by any means and carbon is good stuff too bikes r fun
  • + 2
 @robbiedunks1 Glad we agree. Regular riding is something I don't do. I don't think anyone on a DH bike should be doing "regular riding". Otherwise they should be riding an enduro bike. When you go through 2 alloy frames within 2 seasons, it's enough. I'll stick to carbon from now on. Welding may be good, but it all depends on the design and the skill level of the welder and whether everything was done properly. It's much more consistent to make bikes out of carbon.
  • + 0
 Allix - you miseundrstood my comment on SC pink blue stuff and giant ENVE logos. Thisis the company giving it to you whether you like it or not and you look like a cock on one regardless of your intentions. SC guys pride themselves with "design" since in one of their promos they had a bunch of catalogues with some Annual Design Review something. Whether you like it or not design and graphics are everywhere and they steer customer choices. Informed customer choice is a delusion, there may be more or less considered purchase but since everything is subject to compromise and relativity, you end up with nothing more but a bicycle of a particular kind. Nobody can argue that he chose Giant over Session, Shimano over Sram as a result of informed choice. There are preferences, so Back to design: Very few buy a SUV for practical reasons (since there are very few and some like safety or comfort are misleading), the main reason is to appear big, hence lots of deliberate design decisions are made in order to make the car look even bigger than it is (large lights, large grill, raised bumper). Nobody at Enve made logos so huge because he thought that looks better, nothing happens without a purpose and people who think they are above aesthetics, who believe that aesthetics do not steer their choices are simply lacking understanding of the way their brain works. Fine, thank Gawd there are so few "artists" out there. I am not saying aesthetics are the most important, but I say they are greatly influential and often hidden in subconscious. Whatever happened to ideas like Setto Voce series of Chris King headsets... I may be biased since I'm an architect with great interest in psychology and marketing.

Most importantly if you take someone unfamiliar with bikes and show him aTi frame, he/she will appraciate it. Show them a carbon Nomad in black and tell them the price and you can be sure they will laugh at you behind their back. Show them Antidote bike and they will atleast get interested. Nerd environment of "bike of the day" traffic catchers is not really a place filledwith too much critical thinking. And that's a good way to blow a bubble.

Aahhh, and TLDcarbon helmets are not that carbon as you picture them Wink
  • + 3
 Doesn't Kona have a life time warranty or their carbon dh frames? Granted, you'll go through 365 frames a year, but still...
  • + 2
 Unobtanium
  • + 2
 Waki they don't show the carbon so much because there are so many bonded joints in a modern suspension bike where adhesives and fillers have to be used. On the few bikes that do have it showing the bonded areas are sprayed black to mask these joints. These days though a matt black finish is usually applied to the the whole frame so the finishing process can be speeded up to cater for larger volumes and increase economies of scale so you do have a point. Car bodywork is very different because a panel (bonnet, wing etc) can be moulded in one shot (so no fillers etc), then the bits you don't normally see bonded on to the back of it.
  • + 2
 glad you got the joke @banjberra
  • + 1
 @allix2456, norco carbon is crap. Two frame failures and one chainstay failure in a year and a half on a carbon range LE. the headtube ovalized out creating massive creaking, cracked bottom bracket shell and a the rocker pivot bolt began pulling out of the seat tube. Pure shit.
  • + 2
 It sounds to me like they didn't set up the bikes suspension correctly if he thinks the bike was rough or harsh, and as far as reach goes that's all personal preference. I will agree though the wilson does stay planted, something with the suspension just keeps the bike on the ground but has no problem with drops or jumps. I own a 2016 xl wilson alloy.
  • + 2
 Some bikes do have a harsher feeling about them though. Dirt Magazine (I think) have just reviewed the alloy and carbon Wilson, and they preferred the alloy. I'm just going off the top of my head, but I think it was because they felt the carbon one to be too stiff, which i suppose could contribute to it feeling a bit harsh.
But again, it's all personal preference anyway.
  • + 2
 I ride a 27.5 wilson and it's the best DH bike that I've rode. I'm a hair over 6' and ride an XL and it feels perfect for me. I came off of a 951 EVO, which was a great bike but it's not on the same level as the 27.5 wilson IMO. I was off the bike for 5 months due to a bad crash and when I hopped on the wilson for the first time I felt comfortable right away (I sold the 951 after the crash and bought the Wilson frame, just to clarify. So I had never rode it before). IMO it's way easier and less demanding to ride than the 26" Wilson (I had one for a couple seasons). So after this short rant of my love for the 27.5 Wilson my point is that IMO the geo is spot on and it's super easy to ride.
  • + 2
 ROFLOL Google broken carbon frame there is like 3454546565 results on Google in image section alone. Even tour de France cyclists don't use carbon because after the first crash you don't know if its broken or not
  • + 0
 Bring on the Dislikes
  • + 1
 youre a retard
  • + 1
 trolololol
  • + 1
 @immacaroni: Thanks mate
  • + 1
 I know I'm late posting this but the one trip I've been lucky enough to get to whistler I happened to have rented the 26" carbon Wilson. I must say the easiest dh bike I've ever gotten on to adapt to. If this frame is the same by the end of the first day id be hitting all the lines through dirt merchant, a-line, crabapple hits as well as hitting up the Canadian cup dh course. I've wanted one ever since that one day in whistler.
  • + 1
 I'd be hard pressed to say I won't buy one. This sport isn't so much about need as much as it is about desire. I've had every generation of the split pivot Wilson thus far. Though I do see fault with every generation, they all had a bit of character to them. A unique feel that needed a certain breed of rider. Cost aside and whatever quirk that makes this particular Wilson good/bad (subjectively), when the dust settles, you can't help but appreciate the pedigree this bike bolsters. Just looking at it makes me think "Fast as shit".
  • + 1
 Can a DH rig "spin out" of top end gear? Or do you just let gravity do it's thing? I keep seeing "running out of gear downhill" I've yet to see someone pedaling like a cartoon off the brakes above what steep down hill is providing...at least in the recreation side of things
  • + 3
 I think it's time to move the entire industry to 28.35" wheels so all the manufacturers have to re-tool all of their carbon molds, again, have another 2 years of alum frames.
  • + 1
 Thinking of picking up one of these at the end of the season. I wonder how the reach feel compares to a 2013 Wilson carbon. I am currently riding a medium and am thinking of going to a small ( with the bigger wheels). I'm about 5'8". Any thoughts?
  • + 1
 Stick with a medium.
  • + 4
 i feel the skid plate should be up higer/longer
  • + 2
 Finally, a Wilson with the regular size shock of 241mm instead of the 267mm which is difficult to find/sell/trade...
Looks nice! Smile
  • + 1
 Those integrated cable bump stop are right out of the Santa Cruz V10C hand book, still nice.
That under tray though, could they have gone a less industrial route?
  • + 1
 Can't wait until the end of the season when Stevie will have one of these up in the pink bike buy n sell. Worth the trip to the island!!!!!!
  • + 2
 Such a sweet design frame is more worthy of better graphics than just dull, dare I say early 2k decals.
  • + 2
 Looks very nice, just waiting for a Spartan update lighter & longer please Wink
  • + 2
 yes, the Spartan would be great if it wasn't so short. Even this 'new' Wilson isn't that long
  • - 1
 Does it creak? I've never ridden a Devinci, but every time I've ever seen one being ridden you can hear it coming a mile away by the almost wooden-ship-at-sea creaking noise it makes. A bit like the hollow sound the monocoque Orange frames used to make...
  • + 2
 My 2014 one has never creaked. I was running it chainless for about two months, the only sounds were the wheezing CCBD and tires.
  • + 5
 I have a 14' Wilson and yes they don't half creak when they need pivot bearings to be replaced. The main issue with my Wilson is that it really eates up the bearings... To keep creals at bay, you have to replace the bearings every 6-8 months or so.
  • + 3
 2012 alloy dixon never creaked in 4 years and its been through a lot.
  • + 2
 Had a 2012 Wilson for two years, and never heard a creak, although I did run trough two sets of bearings. As for my GT Fury 15, the I-Drive needs to be put apart and cleaned every six months, otherwise the bike will sound like a freight train coming trough...
  • + 3
 Who thinks riding a downhill bike is for comfort?
  • + 3
 Hardly new-skool geometry.
450 reach for an XL?
Maybe 5 years ago....
  • + 1
 this one's color is so much better then the one in the ad in the background of this article
  • + 2
 "the Wilson's asymmetrical design in all of its curvy beauty."
This.
  • + 2
 Bike looks amazing but top tube really looks short
  • + 1
 I could tell Olly's opinion was going to be null and void just judging by his saddle height
  • + 2
 I want a promo edit with IAN MORISSON on the CRABAPPLE HITS. Thank u
  • + 0
 Carbon was the new best shit, then 650b came around and that was the new shit, now carbon is the new cool again? I wonder what's next
  • + 7
 Carbon Plus
  • + 6
 Carbon boost
  • + 1
 Carbon Eagle, ekhem: E-agle
  • + 4
 Still hoping for chrome spinners
  • + 1
 Pegs and some fuzzy dice hanging from the stem
  • + 1
 wilson carbon 2016 tested by me
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_qGwBlJhaw
  • + 1
 @leostop how's your first impression?
  • + 1
 i had the previous alluminium frame 27.5 and then this by one week. works the same way but the lighter waight makes it ride easyer .
  • - 2
 Speaking in geometry number , this bike has some similarity with the Intense M16C. Price and weight is pretty close too. I never ride an M16, but the M9 is a pretty stable and glued to the ground, type of bike. Probally, both M16 and this Wilson fits this style too.
  • - 1
 Single vs double pivot though.
  • + 2
 I call dibs on the "double pivot" term. Can't wait to start bandying it about at the trail head when I'm comparing e-knowledge with the dentists.
  • + 1
 Wilson Carbons have always had a special spot in my heart. That special spot is one of the best carbon bikes with looks.
  • + 0
 @olly foster needs to go home because he is too drunk with the bitching about a downhill bike being too stiff. That is the dumbest statement i have heard all year.
  • + 1
 Such a sick bike, a couple of my buddies from soulid.me ride them.
  • + 1
 Lost it at "PRICES - USD / CAD / GBP:"
  • + 1
 do these bikes use a mid cage deruallier
  • + 1
 TLD Sprint kit and new RAID D3O guards look nice on that wilson! Wink
  • + 1
 Intended use: Freeride

This makes me happy.
  • + 0
 $3359 for a frame. Probably not gna see too many until they hit pb classifieds.
  • + 1
 For a carbon DH frame, that seems very average, if any thing, on the cheaper side. The Alloy version with carbon seat stay is $2799 CAD which is extremely reasonable. Look at the Carbon M16 at $5250 CAD. They also come with 25 year warranty which is pretty sick
  • + 1
 Nuggets, I just got a Wilson alu...
  • + 1
 That's one sexy looking Wilson
  • + 0
 I want to know if a carbon Banshee Legend is in the works.
  • - 2
 Dear Olly Forster - "V10's, Session's, Demo's and Glory's..." - an apostrophe shows possession and does not belong here. Awesome write up though, and an awesome bike.
  • + 1
 Carbon Daito :v lol
  • + 1
 ????????
  • + 1
 O-M-G.
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