Field Test: 2020 Orbea Occam - The Most Trail Bike Trail Bike

Nov 14, 2019
by Mike Levy  


PINKBIKE FIELD TEST

2020 Orbea Occam

The most 'trail bike' trail bike



Words by Mike Levy, Photography by Trevor Lyden



For 2020, Orbea consolidated several their Occam models into a new 140mm-travel trail bike meant to do all the things pretty well. Remember the more enduro-focused Rallon that we reviewed a while back? Think of this bike as its lighter weight little bro, with the shorter-travel Occam also using a single-sided strut on the front triangle (but on the right side this time—just because), and the same concentric axle pivot for the rear suspension.

This colourful 28.1lbs test bike is their top-of-the-line M-LTD model that goes for $7,999 USD, but you can get onto an aluminum Occam with the same geometry and suspension kinematics for $2,599 USD. Not enough colour? They offer the Occam in their 'MyO' custom colour & spec program as well.
Occam M-LTD Details

Intended use: Trail
Travel: 140mm
Wheel size: 29''
Frame construction: Carbon fiber
Head angle: 65.5-degrees w/ 150mm fork
Chainstay length: 440mm
Reach: 474mm (lrg)
Sizes: Sm, med, lrg (tested), xl
Weight: 28.1lbs / 12.7 kg (as pictured)
Price: $7,999 USD
More info: www.orbea.com

Orbea lets riders configure their Occam with either a 140mm Fox 34 or 36 with 150mm of travel. Can you guess what we chose? The steep and rocky terrain around Whistler and Pemberton saw us go for the bigger fork, but not just for the extra travel; it also relaxes the head angle from 66 to 65.5-degrees (an earlier version of this review incorrectly stated it as 65-degrees). The M-LTD's price tag gets you the Grip2 damper and a DPX2 shock, as well as a set of fancy carbon wheels from DT Swiss, and an XTR drivetrain with a set of carbon cranks from Race Face to match their carbon handlebar. There's not a lot of room to upgrade on this one.

The Occam uses a concentric axle pivot that works exactly as it sounds: the pivot rotates around the axle. Sound familiar? Trek's ABP and Dave Weagle's Split Pivot (found on Salsa and Devinci bikes) both use a concentric axle pivot, although the similarities end there. Compared to its predecessor, the new Occam sees the leverage ratio changed at the start for improved sensitivity, while anti-squat was bumped up by 7-percent to play nice with wide-range cassettes. Anti-rise was changed, too, dropping to a lower percentage to minimize the rear brake's influence on the suspension. Aaaand let's go riding now.




Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.
Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.


Climbing

While an enduro bike has a narrower focus, a modern trail bike has to give you more than just a fighting chance on all of the climbs, regardless of how steep or technical they might be. Even so, there's a massive difference in how companies approach the challenge. The Occam is just a couple of pounds lighter than other bikes on test, but it feels like more than that on the trail - those carbon hoops sure are nice when you're accelerating out of countless switchbacks up an hour-long technical climb. The Occam is also easier to live with than bikes with longer wheelbases when switchbacks are folding back on themselves and littered with rocks and roots, but it doesn't have anything over the Norco Optic in those moments.

Orbea says they've made this bike's rear-suspension more sensitive, and while we don't have the old Occam here to compare, it does feel supple. That can only help your cause, as can the big ol' Maxxis tire we installed and then only inflated to 21 PSI, and neither Kazimer or myself made any notes about sub-par traction. Those dabs will be all you, I'm afraid.

On the efficiency front, the Occam didn't feel like it was lighting a fire under my ass at any point, but it certainly did its job. It feels like a more efficient Stumpjumper.


Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.

Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.
Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.


Descending

Some bikes in our trail bike category made my brain automatically switch into 'drop your buddies' mode, especially as the speeds picked up. The Occam on the other hand has a more traditional trail bike personality that, while more competent than any of its peers from just a season or two ago, isn't quite as surefooted as the slacker "plow-style" bikes when things get rowdy.

Don't get me wrong, with an appropriate reach it ain't exactly a nervous nelly. I mean, it was tied for second in timed testing for me, so it's "lively fast" rather than "stupid fast" on the descents.

If there was a bonus side-hit of any kind, I found myself doing it more on the Occam than any of the three other bikes. While the Optic is a very different kind of trail rig, the two were easily the most entertaining of the bunch.

On the suspension front, Orbea has done well to come up with a useable 140mm that'll work for a lot of different types of riders. The DPX2 shock is ideal for this type of bike, and Orbea includes a large-sized volume spacer to add if you're looking for more progression. We spent time on the bike with the stock setup and didn't have any issues, but the added progression did work well for more aggressive riding as the bike carried more speed over rolling terrain that rewards pumping.

Given that the Occam was the most trail bike-feeling trail bike of the bunch, it's probably a good thing that we decided on the 150mm Fox 36 instead of the 10mm-shorter 34 that would have sped up the handling by a touch. Pemberton and Whistler have more than their fair share of steep and rowdy lines, and it's a place where trail bikes need to be ready for anything.

Timed Testing

Our timed lap for the trail bikes was around 1:30 long and started with Afternoon Delight, a rooty, twisty singletrack that feeds you into the rocky lines of Lower Whistler Downhill. After that, we crossed the piste before entering Heart of Darkness where the lower Freelap cone was hidden next to a tree.

Don't forget that timing is just one of many ways to judge a bike, and fast doesn't always mean best.


Levy: ''I had my second fastest time on the Occam and Norco’s Optic, both of which were 1.2-percent quicker than the Intense Primer S. The Occam was still 5-percent behind the Pole Stamina, though.''

Kazimer: ''On the Orbea I was 7% slower than my fastest time, getting beaten by both the Optic and the Pole. It’s not that far off from them numbers-wise, but I felt more comfortable going faster on them than when I was on the Occam.''
The reality is that the Occam is probably one of the best trail bikes for most riders and most places. It's capable enough for almost all of us, and I'd choose it over bikes like the Stamina if I weren't taking big chances all the time, or if my main focus was just to cover a lot of ground.


Orbea Occam M-LTD review Photo by Trevor Lyden.


Pros

+ Ideal all-rounder for many riders
+ Clean looks
+ Lightweight
Cons

- Not as gravity-oriented as the other Field Test bikes
- Great all-rounder, but doesn't stand out
- Left-side bottle only





The 2020 Pinkbike Field Test was made possible by support from
Race Face apparel & pads, Giro helmets, & Sierra Nevada beer.



247 Comments

  • 100 10
 Looks like an absolutely killer bike. This is the type of bike that is perfect for 90% of riders, particularly those that aren't riding EWS caliber trails every other day and those that aren't in the top 10% of skill (that's 90% of us).

That being said, most people won't buy it because it's a short(er) travel trail bike that doesn't have 160mm of sweet sweet bail out travel when your eyes exceed your skill.
  • 12 2
 Agreed. the Stumpy 29 ALMOST does it right but the geo needs a bit of update and its pretty much the same bike
  • 12 2
 @MikeyMT: Stumpy Evo ?
  • 4 0
 SPot on comment.
  • 3 0
 @JDFF: Thats a good point...probably weighs more than this but perhaps with an air shock and carbo wheels you could get it under 30 lbs.
  • 19 9
 pretty sure more than 10% of riders shuttle or lift-access or like a little bit rowdier bike for whatever reason
  • 3 0
 @MikeyMT: My issues with the Stumpy (having owned one) is that I don't get along with the suspension kinematics (which to be fair is very much personal preference), and the geo just isn't quite there compared to most of these brand new bikes.

Stumpy Evo geo is almost there, but the reach is short (I ride an XL, so more so they don't make my size), and STA is still a bit slack.
  • 20 6
 @bikefuturist: Maybe, but in my experience, half of the people riding shuttles and lift-access are riding blue trails that should be ridden on a bike like this rather their downhill sled. I don't disagree that some people like a rowdier bike, and some people can use more travel, but lets be honest a lot of those people don't need as much bike as they have.
  • 4 1
 @tgent: eh, most of those types don't own downhill bikes. the population of people who own downhill bikes is continually shrinking
  • 5 2
 @tgent: I agree 100%...I have a 275 regular Stumpy and I think they nailed the sizing on the 275 version...the 29 is just weird and doesn't fit.
  • 6 2
 @tgent: You're right about the DH bikes, the majority of people i see at the bike park are way overbiked riding a dh bike when they can have something with less travel and more options of terrain.
  • 26 0
 @nyhc00: see i disagree. If you can have multiple bikes a DH bike is still the best for most bike parks IMO.
  • 10 0
 Honestly I feel like most riders in my general region will choose bikes with more travel though might be missing out a bit for doing it. Around here the trend is still 2006 beyond 160/160 travel bikes or more recently some 180/170 bikes. I'm on a 160/140 (so not really short but shorter) but bikes like the SB 130 'lunch are gaining traction and I have heard talk of wanting to go shorter for some. I don't see myself going to more travel in the rear in the future as the angles and suspension of smaller bikes continue to evolve. I personally like a bit more trail reflexivity...being able to have quick feedback when you press into something and pop out- something that gets harder to get with larger travel bikes without over pumping the canister. Bikes like the Norco optic or this seem like a fun versatile ride that are a better fit for many letting them get more out of what most of us ride most of the time... or feel free to tell me I'm not as hardcore and just don't know...It won't hurt my ego at this point in my riding career. Of course riding the old school trails even with 140 and landing those old flat bridge drops to ankle compress and head slap will only get worse and line choices around those nasty square rock edges will need to improve. But- as always- ride what you love to ride and be grateful for options. This might be like the barefoot running trend shorter travel rippers will just blow out knees and ankles and come back to the big bike fold in a few seasons.
  • 53 9
 @tgent:

It might be a cultural difference but I find it a bit arrogant to say most people dont need (read: deserve) a rowdy bike because they are slower/more timid than me / my perception of rad riding.
  • 3 1
 @JDFF: I think the Evo is a bit boring for most riders on most trails. It has geo that only wakes up at high speed or super gnar, and suspension that gives a smaller margin of error compared to a 160mm machine. This makes a bike that is either sedate or hair-on-fire intense. It's a great bike, but it takes a a lot of energy to engage with.
  • 21 0
 @snl1200: When I bought my Smuggler, I did so because everyone in my area said the Sentinel was going to be too much bike. A year later, I started asking around and everyone said the Sentinel was the better choice for riding in this area. I did fine on the Smuggler, but the Sentinel provided more comfort, better traction, and there weren't many negative attributes I could find compared to the Smuggler. That said, I know plenty of people riding rowdy terrain doing great on the shorter, less aggressive bikes, they just ride differently.

I think it all depends on how you ride and what you want. The 'big bikes' these days seem to all pedal really well, even if they deaden the trail a bit, they seem to provide a lively ride due to the speed you can comfortably keep in comparison. The bigger bikes will be more planted, but provide a different style of ride than something like the Optic, Smuggler, or Occam, which requires a more active riding style.

I think it ultimately comes down to preference and what the rider wants, you could argue that riders on short travel bikes 'aren't as hardcore' (per your post) or make the same argument of riders on big bikes for having so much travel. Personally, I'd like to see that nomenclature and phrases like "too big for this area" and judgements made about a riders skill die off in favor of people advocating for bikes based on their ride quality and type as opposed to more arbitrary, subjective factors. If I want a more compliant, dead feeling ride, that's on me to decide. If you want to ride playfully, pop off features, etc, then that is up to you choose a bike that fits that role.
  • 22 0
 @bikefuturist: in North America we are only too happy to shove our opinion down your throats my European friend.
  • 6 3
 Are you going to review a bunch of testosterone orientated DH/FR/DJ bikes after this scenic AM review ?
  • 4 0
 @shinook: big ups. Bang on.
  • 3 2
 @jorgeposada: F*ck yeah - I hella shredd.
  • 3 0
 @MikeyMT: If you can have multiple bikes than yes i agree having a DH bike does serve a purpose.The line gets very blurry now with long travel enduro bikes that can eat up that same rough terrain and aren't being held back on the faster trails either, plus can be pedaled uphill if you wanted to.
  • 4 0
 I agree that it would be a great bike for the average rider and maybe even less travel would be better, but you're kind of splitting hairs comparing a 150f/140r bike to a 160mm. The lower travel should be noticeable but it's not going to be drastically different in the way a 100mm bike is compared to a 160mm bike.
  • 4 0
 I'm also pretty sure more than 10% riders regularly ride terrain with larger jumps and drops, some to flat, integrated into their already technical trails. Cue the 200lbs + guys saying "I take big drops on my 140mm bike all the time, no prob". While a 140mm bike may do it, I'm doing this on my usual ride 2-3x a week, so I'd rather have a 160mm bike from the durability perspective alone. Plus I don't feel handicapped whatsoever on the climbs, given the guys on shorter travel bikes are not dropping me, sometimes its the opposite.
  • 3 0
 @shinook: 100. I actually ride a Sentinel and love the s#$t out of it. I think I see the opposite feedback about bikes in my area. The comment: "are you sure that is enough bike for you?" would be the more common one. My wife had that experience when we were looking squarely in the middle of the "Trail" category for her new bike last year and people kept trying to push her towards the "Enduro" category claiming that "well- the kind of trails around here..." but I know her, she knows her, and we both knew what she wanted out of a ride and she has been very happy with a 140/130 bike. I think figuring out what you like is so important and what I was really commenting on was that I think a lot of people predict the bike they need based on terrain or culture- when the more important question is what do you enjoy about a bike, how are you going to ride that bike, and what's going to make you get the experience you want? I'd like to demo some smaller bikes but at the moment feel very happy with my bike and what it offers my experience- also don't really see the need at the moment to go back to a 160 in the rear for the type of riding and style of riding I'm enjoying.
  • 2 1
 I love these tests! Info overload, it's great!
  • 4 1
 @nyhc00: a seasons riding in a bike park kills long travel trail/ enduro bikes quicker than DH bikes IMHO
  • 1 0
 @4thflowkage: Mind that the Evo is easy to convert to 155mm rear, 160mm front.
You just need to remove the shock spacer and get a new fork airshaft
  • 1 0
 I'd say it is a perfect match for me. I would just change the front suspension for a 160mm.
  • 10 14
flag tgent (Nov 13, 2019 at 12:54) (Below Threshold)
 @bikefuturist: Why is it arrogant to say most people don't need a rowdy bike? I never said or insinuated anything about myself, or that I'm above most people.

I stick by my statement that most people don't need a rowdy bike. When talking in broad generalities, most people are riding relatively tame trails and they do not need a ton of travel/bike, they just think they do because their endur-bro friend or the bike industry told them they are the best for Richy Rude, so therefore it's a good bike for them.

FYI, I live in Utah where we have access to some pretty gnarly terrain which absolutely can warrant a big rowdy bike, but most of the US doesn't have the terrain to warrant a bike bigger than the Occam for example. I realize my example and experience is US centric, I just have less experience in Europe and am not qualified to propose that most people in Europe would be better off on a trail bike.
  • 1 0
 @endlessblockades: Happy congratulations
  • 5 0
 @tgent: Don;t forget that both US coasts and the Rocky Mountains work for rowdy bikes.
  • 1 1
 @jorgeposada: Sincere felicitations to you as well.
  • 5 1
 @tgent I think the idea that the terrain dictates the type of bike people ride, especially for intermediate or advanced riders, is generally misleading. I know guys that live in flat places with mellow trails but ride in a way that certainly warrants a bigger bike (remember when staircases to flat was a thing?) and I know people who ride some really nasty stuff on hard tails or get-bent-country-bikes (I think that's what we're calling them now right?). At the end of the day the bike they ride may be way out of step with the type of riding they do based on the fact sheet and the terrain but they just like it which is also a totally acceptable answer. It's your money, your enjoyment, and it will be your bike so buy the one you want. I'm from a small town in the Kootenays that at one point was known as Canada's mountain bike capitol before Squamish usurped the title (Go there... not here... JK... here is pretty rad so feel free to visit and we'd be happy to show you around) so we have our share of all sorts of trails that can pretty well justify any type of bike you want to bring to the party and you'll likely have the most fun on the one that best fits what you what you want out of the ride.
  • 5 0
 My experience is that emerging riders have more fun on long travel bikes. People who have been drinking the XC Koolaid their whole lives get on a proper bike and have the most fun. Finally open their eyes and see that mountain biking is more about fun than just suffering in the pain cave. Once eyes are open and skills are acquired then bike travel is just preference. Some of my best rides have been on my XC bike, rowdy terrain and my friends on enduro sleds. Bottom line: every bike in the test this year is better than any bike from the recent past.
  • 2 5
 @shinook: Again my comment is a broad generalization, which reviews also are constrained by because you can't write a review to specific skill group. Based solely on the fact you're on PinkBike and responding to my comment probably puts you in that top 10% of riders that could benefit from a bigger bike.
  • 2 0
 @tgent: by that logic you would expect a PB review to be catering to this "top 10% of riders".
  • 3 1
 @bikefuturist: It's pretty safe to say that most people don't have access to the type of trails in Whistler and Pemberton BC. It's not a comment on people's riding ability, just a statement of fact that most places don't have the topography or existing trail systems.
There is a reason Rocky Mountain came out with an Altitude and an Altitude BC Edition, one for the majority of riders and one for those who can and do ride gnarlier trails regularly.
  • 5 1
 @tgent: Maybe instead of broad generalizations about how a large segment of your peers don't know what's best for them, we can just focus on the places this might be the right bike for someone.
  • 2 0
 @4thflowkage: My Stumpy Evo comment was just in response to @MikeyMT who commented the regular Stumpy geo was a bit dated. So I was just pointing out that a more progressive geo exists in the Evo. Wasn't a comment suggesting one was better or worse or comparing to the Oreba.
  • 2 0
 @JDFF: If they made an XL size I'd have bought one. Bike was such a success that they made carbon molds, but still no larger sizes... WTH Spec?
  • 4 5
 @bikefuturist: Just because you lift access/ shuttle doesn't mean you're a gnarly rider. In fact often times it means the opposite.
  • 2 1
 @rpdale: please go on and explain how shutting a downhill bike 3-4 miles with a 2000-3000ft climb makes someone "less gnarly"
  • 2 2
 @bikefuturist: need and deserve are different words, why fault him for your chosen interpretation?
  • 1 0
 @SlodownU: good point about regularly doing it versus a one off
  • 2 1
 @sleemans12: you mean instinct? there is no altitude BC as far as I know
  • 10 1
 So they tested the trail bikes on super steep climbs and even steeper descents ( read enduro terrain), ridden enduro style and come up with the suprising verdict that the trail bikes should be more enduroish. At least, most acclamation is sure for the bikes that are the slackest, steepest, plushest ....

My crazy suggestion would be that trail bikes should be tested on trail bike terrain and "downcountry" bikes are tested on even mellower terrain.
  • 3 0
 I remember when a 29er with 65.5-degree HTA was considered the height of a long-travel enduro 29er.
  • 6 2
 @elmaar: that is trail bike terrain here in BC Smile
  • 5 0
 I wish they made a similar bike in 27.5
  • 1 0
 @klake: Yes, Instinct
  • 2 0
 @snl1200: I was out riding in Rossland last weekend, thoroughly enjoyed the trails. You guys have enough variety that pretty much any bike can be ridden and enjoyed. I did enjoy having 160/165 blindly blasting down Crown Point, but you could run a 120/100 bike down Monticola and be no worse off.
  • 1 0
 @michaelasnider: hmm...never thought about taking my rigid Surly Ogre out to Monti but I bet it would handle just fine... next season I'll give it a crack. Both those trails are a great time and I've seen them ridden on all sorts of bikes. If you need any trail beta feel free to reach out next time you are out! Glad you liked it and yeah I think we are pretty lucky- Fernie is another place with a pretty healthy network though from what I remember
  • 2 0
 @shinook: haha I agree.
My Ripmo is a lot of bike but still fun for just about everything.
I like the sentinel and the smuggler too
  • 2 0
 even highly skilled, this kind of bike is perfect for most riders. A lot of riders in the top 10% of skill level are not trying to just go huge or win races - they're just riding for a good time, too
  • 2 0
 @SlodownU: I ride the Orbea Occam 130 and have no issues
  • 68 0
 Also, note that you can get the aluminum version with an XT/SLX 12 speed build and upgraded Fox 36 Factory for $4000.
  • 10 0
 man of the people!
  • 9 0
 And they've polished the welds so much on the aluminum version people will think you're on a carbon bike!
  • 2 0
 Any chance to use TriAir and Durolux?
  • 33 7
 I get the left side bottle thing. BUT at least there is a bottle mount. Hard to believe I am saying that.

It’s proper technique to use the left hand unless you have your breaks set up moto style. That way your right rear brake is covered in case of an emergency break situation.
  • 42 8
 Not in my country young man
  • 10 6
 Correct. Moto style!@jimoxbox:
  • 9 0
 Left hand drinking is proper technique as you said but I think it has more to do with the ability to shift while holding the bottle. I drink mostly while climbing so being able to shift made me learn to use left hand.
  • 20 5
 it's not moto style, it's scooter style. Motos only have 1 brake lever, scooters have 2. Keep on scootin!
  • 3 1
 Someone may argue now a days that you do not cover your dropper when you drink with your left hand. And that’s not safe.

I was first taught it in a road riding course 20 years ago. That’s when mountain bikes were much closer to road bikes.

@i-am-lp:
  • 64 0
 I drink water while I'm wheezing away, gasping for air at the top of a climb, feet firmly planted on the ground. Since I'm using both hands to lean on the bars to prevent myself from collapsing into a useless pile of meat, I use the hose from my hydration pack. I can see how this might affect other riders though.
  • 8 1
 It’s too bad that I cannot type brake rather than break on my phone. My English teachers from along time ago would have issue with this.

My hatred for hydration packs is second to none but I totally get your comment about collapsing at the top of climbs. Depending on the length I also like to collapse at the mid point or several points along the climb too.

I guess I am dreaming of the next Pole which will have a 100 degree seat angle where the seat mounts on the stem. That will help me on the climbs.


@Dethphist:
  • 6 0
 @i-am-lp: I’m left hand drinking right now, doesn’t feel awkward at all.
  • 1 0
 @didewar Stop making so much sense! I don't use a bottle but if I did,it would be on the lefthand path for that very reason.
  • 4 3
 Who is using their dominant hand to grab a water bottle?!
  • 2 0
 @davidccoleman: Yes! Commonwealth countries ride scooter style. Hehehe :-)
  • 6 0
 @Zaff: ME, who has a better chance of equilibrium while riding with my non dominant arm. It is a thing so personal that it is a lose battle for everyone involved.
  • 1 0
 @Zaff: not a deal breaker but a major annoyance for me
  • 1 0
 you have to have options I like using my right cause my left thumb was broken worse than my right.
  • 3 0
 @davidccoleman: Moto style = Coaster brake and RH front brake.
  • 2 0
 @robokfc: Shows you what I know - should have said BACKWARDS.....
  • 21 0
 Orbea deserves more recognition for what they're doing in terms of builds. You can get a full suspension Occam that's more than enough bike for 95% of the users on here starting at $2599, and it's actually a good bike. I just think it's great that full suspension bikes are becoming more affordable and still staying capable.
  • 19 6
 I dont agree with this not gravity oriented and not stand out BS. It is trail bike and it should be considered as that. Too much bikes recently are graviti oriented and with enduro geometry and travel. Like guy @tgent said not all of us want and need 160 mm bikes...
  • 55 2
 That’s why we said it’s an amazing trail bike. It is also less gravity oriented than the others. If the “con” isn’t a con for you, then it’s just information we hope is useful. Smile
  • 4 4
 They need to tell us what the bike is best for and to point out what it's not best for CUZ there are riders in both camps who look at a bike. I am gravity oriented as well as climbing oriented, I'm a strong climber and so I'd rather have a bike that doesn't climb as well but compensates with better downhill chops.
  • 3 0
 @nurseben: They did: "trails"
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: I am a bit confused! so its a great all rounder but what makes it less capable downhill compared to the optic? Geo is similar and its more travel, so is it just the rear suspension design? Not as stiff?
  • 2 0
 @robholland: even leverage ratio is similar.. I have learned to take bike reviews with grain of salt.
  • 2 0
 @sxy-slo: Looks the Orbea was also tested in really wet conditions and the Optic in dry weather from the photos.....
  • 1 0
 @robholland: Compared to the Optic, the Occam is slightly steeper, has slightly less reach, slightly less active suspension, and IIRC it has a little less BB drop. It also has lighter components. It's a game of millimetres, but it all adds up!
  • 2 0
 @robholland: we weren't really testing on photo/video shooting days. All the bikes got ridden in a variety of conditions and terrain across several weeks.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: Thanks for the clarification. It’s interesting how small changes can make a big difference to the stability downhill.
  • 1 0
 @robholland: I find this even with the flip chip on my Slash. Put it in high and it is quite different to the low setting even though it changes seat and head angles each by 0.5%

Anyway - Trail bikes are stomping on the coat tails of what was Enduro not more than 2 or so years ago. 120 to 150mm rear travel and although I ride a multitude of stuff, I am happy with my 150 rear and it pedals well. Effective seat tube angle - could be steeper though.
  • 1 0
 @robholland: Its not made in canada, much like the british press with orange, the pinkbike guys always big up the local bikes.
  • 11 0
 Good stuff! I’ve been curious about this bike for a half year or so. Seems like it could be a good only bike option. Excited to see the rest of the trail bikes and the round table discussion. I’m really liking the the format and content of these field tests. Keep up the good work!
  • 10 0
 Best part about Orbea - custom paint on anything Worst part about Orbea - waiting for your custom paint
  • 2 0
 Thats what i thought but according to their website its just the top of the range bikes??
  • 1 0
 Yea, I 've heard some horror stories on delivery time of the custom paint schemes.
  • 1 0
 Orbea confirmed my custom colored (and specced) Occam M-10 order on 16th July 2019 and they estimated that the delivery would take place on 1st week of 2020. Later on they changed the delivery to the start of December 2019. Generally I'd say it is not a bad delivery time when you know it beforehand.

More generally speaking, many high-end bikes tend to have similar or even longer delivery times where I live, so it is not uncommon. The industry seems to have moved to a direction where manufacturers do not keep bikes in stock and produce them on batches, thus causing delay for most of us.
  • 1 0
 To be clear, I don't mean any disrespect to Orbea for long wait times. It's pretty natural when you're custom program is that extensive. It's just more of the thoughs of Hmm I could have walked down the road and got a sweet Norco or something within an afternoon but instead I get to wait 7 months. Lol
  • 8 1
 it probably feels less planted because of the carbon wheels.
in the riding parts of the video i can barely look at how the bike bounces around under levy .. looks awefull.
we teste two pivot firebirds 29 this year one with aluminium and one with carbon wheels and the difference in traction was huge. the carbon wheeled one was so stiff that it felt really shitty, bouncy and uncontroled for all of us while we instantly loved the bike eith the aluminium wheels.
just wondering if that was a factor here too?
  • 1 0
 No offense to Levy, but it seems like every bike bounces around like mad under him. Not sure what's going on there.
  • 1 0
 @VelkePivo: They now call him Rodeo Mike.
  • 10 0
 I’m used to holding my cigarette and whiskey glass in my right hand while I ride. This just won’t work for me.
  • 5 0
 Tried ordering this bike when it came out. Gave the shop a deposit and was told it was ordered and would be ready in 2 weeks. Day after it was supposed to be ready I got a call saying Orbea’s IT system was having issues, and somehow that translated into me having to wait an additional 6 weeks for the bike (in the middle of summer riding season). Had already sold my other bike in anticipation of the new one, so would’ve been a lonely summer on the couch. Decided to pull my deposit. Looks like an awesome bike based on the review, but Orbea appears to be a unicorn in the US. Rarely actually seen.
  • 6 5
 You only have one bike?
  • 5 0
 You know what really pisses me off. All these people sitting in the comments telling us how 90% of people don't need a rowdy bike while their asses are riding big travel bikes on trails that are piss easy. Any person that says that comment i gurantee you is terrible at riding. GO buy yourself a long travel bike if you want to who cares what others say.
  • 5 0
 Hmm, this and the Optic (as well as the Tallboy and Ripley) were at the top of my list before the test...I'm not sure that things have been clarified, but it seems like you can't go wrong at the moment.
  • 14 1
 We are spoiled for choice these days.
  • 3 0
 This was my list also. I decided in favor of the Optic. The Occam was a very close second. I decided against it mainly because of our incompetent local Orbea dealer here. Bought the Optic online instead.
  • 1 0
 @firevsh2o: Nice! Were you able to test ride the Orbea? That's my issue as I'm in the US and they don't seem to have East Coast distribution.
  • 3 0
 Thanks guys great videos...

Couple thoughts...

Think it would be helpful to dive into and compare the specs on the bikes in the same class a little more...like this bike has the longest or shortest wheelbase or reach of the bikes in its class etc. or bike A has a slightly longer reach then bike B etc. ...More frame details.

Do the frame sizes run spot on or on the large size etc.

Also you touched on anti squat, but would like to hear more about the leverage curves of each bike and if running a coil is an option. Does the bike have adjustable geometry?

Think maybe less time talking about the components?
  • 4 1
 The more direct comparisons will come in the Editors' Choice round tables. The suspension geekery is our favourite, but hard to do within the confines of a short testing window, where we're trying to get maximum time on the bikes. We'll be digging deeper into several of these bikes with our Behind The Numbers series in the near future. And yeah, the component talk is really just there to put our impressions into context. We could probably dial that back for some more kinematic stuff in the future.
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: heck yes! more geekery, love the videos, cant wait for the rest! -thanks
  • 5 0
 @brianpark: These field tests are excellent! They are part of what puts you guys on a higher level compared to other sights. Have you thought about adding "Field Tests" on the menu on your home page? I can't seem to find them unless I do a search.
  • 2 0
 @ichabodchain: that's a good idea. In the meantime, you can see all of them under the Field Test tag: www.pinkbike.com/news/tags/field-test
  • 3 0
 "The Occam is just a couple of pounds lighter than other bikes on test, but it feels like more than that on the trail - those carbon hoops sure are nice when you're accelerating out of countless switchbacks up an hour-long technical climb."
This is the part that is hard for the consumer. It used to be that different category bikes (cross-country or trail or enduro for example) could be separated by travel and weight. The lines are blurred now, and even the short travel downcountry and trail bikes weigh 30 pounds or more. Except this Occam, which weighs at 28.1 (as pictured). This is where it gets tricky. If 28 pounds feels "more than a couple pounds lighter than other bikes in the test" then what is a light bike? What is worth paying for? The difference between the entry and top level bike from just about any manufacturer is about 2 pounds and $3500-4000 (provided the frame is the same material) This holds true if you look at Santa Cruz bikes (they post the weights), and the difference between carbon and aluminium rims is very small as well.. Nobody publishes frame weights and if they do you can't compare because they are weighed differently. Is it frameset with shock, and seat post collar, etc, or what? And there are people who are saying geometry matters more than weight........My feelings are sort of like that of Mike Levy here. A 28 pound bike feels pretty light. A 31 pound bike doesn't generally feel light. But it doesn't make sense. If two pounds doesn't matter, then buy the aluminium bike and be done. But the weight does make a difference in trail feel. The cross country racers know that a bike in the low 20 pound range for a dual suspension race bike matters. So it's confusing for the consumer when people say you could ride a 30.5 pound short travel downcountry bike alongside a cross country bike, but it will have more capability. What? It's all crazy now.
  • 1 0
 Weight is not the only parameter that matters when riding a bike uphill. Of course less dead weight means less potential energy to overcome but rear suspension plays important role as well - mostly anti squat. High anti squat bikes lose less power in rear suspension due to bobbing and therefore feel faster/are easier to propel. I felt this firsthand when comparing my Rallon 29 to friends Capra 29..
  • 1 0
 @sxy-slo: I agree with what you say. I'm still thinking that a light bike just feels.....lighter. Different shock lockouts help, but big travel bikes are for the most part not snappy and fast feeling. They are getting better though. I am intrigued with the Scott bikes like the Ransom with 170mm and a 170 open, 120mm middle, and a full lockout in the rear. This is what FOX Live will be doing electronically when we see it proliferate down to more bikes.
  • 3 1
 The note about the bottle cage is interesting. As a right-handed rider who accidentally bought a left-hand accessed cage, it's way harder than I expected to access a bottle while riding. That said, maybe it'll slowly improve my dexterity. Also, that's a very pretty bike!
  • 12 1
 On the other hand it isn't an XC or marathon bike so you can afford drinking in non techy places or stopping for a drink.
  • 9 0
 Maybe using your left hand more will reduce your right-hand dominance and improve your bike handling, making you an all-round better rider Wink

Shame im left handed and very very tempted by the Occam
  • 2 0
 I'm right-handed but have gotten in the habit of only reaching down with my left.. It keeps my shifting hand on the bars which is a bit more important for XC racing, so probably not all that applicable to trail/enduro riding but still important in case you try your hand at different disciplines.
  • 3 0
 I also had to think about this after hearing @mikekazimer mention that. I’m right-handed, and I reach with my left hand for my bottle. I guess I put more emphasis on leaving my dominant hand on the bar rather than use it to grab for water. The funny thing is that I actually had to go through the motion in my head as it’s not really a top of mind thing. It’s become automatic at this point. Anyway, cool bike.
  • 10 0
 my buddy randy says he likes to use his left for this. "makes it feel like someone else is pouring for you"
  • 4 0
 @tjcayou: you can also sit half an hour on your dominant hand before...its called the stranger
  • 1 0
 @funkzander: i know you did!
  • 4 0
 @funkzander: Or you could sit on your privates for 30 min... that's called the stranger reversed. Like your doing it for someone else.
  • 11 6
 So 15mm more travel and nearly 3lbs lighter than the Norco?
  • 17 3
 Sure, but it costs twice as much
  • 40 0
 This guy got addition/subtraction figured out.
  • 7 3
 And double the price.
  • 6 3
 @crashtor: orbea offers numerous builds for those bikes
  • 14 3
 @SnowshoeRider4Life: ..and those builds dont weight 3 lbs less
  • 3 0
 Yeah but the Norco is half the price with 5/8" less travel.
  • 1 1
 @gnarnaimo: ya but they cost less. You want to have your cake or eat it?
  • 2 0
 @zaalrottunda: I was pointing out that the 3 lbs lighter costs twice as much in agreement with @crashtor and yourself... Thought that was obvious.
  • 1 0
 @gnarnaimo: huh, I read your comment as saying they're not as desirable because of their lack of weight savings. My bad, hah.
  • 4 1
 My point is, is it all components? A Scott Genius frame is 2250g, a 2018 Range is 2800g. That’s a lot of pointless weight to drag around if you’re a light rider who doesn’t need a “it’s so stiff bro” frame.
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: is what all components? the bikes performance or the weight saving?
  • 2 0
 @zaalrottunda: All good man! Sometimes its hard to decipher what people mean in text, and equally as hard to get points across in text.
  • 1 0
 @zaalrottunda: Weight saving. Hence why I quoted some frame weights.
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: Oh I see. Well i doubt you're gonna get 3lbs of components off the bike, I'd imagine its coming from the frame.
  • 4 0
 @zaalrottunda: the Optic frame with its alloy rear triangle is likely a touch heavier, but it could still be built to sub 29 without too much hassle. The Orbea has lighter cockpit, cranks, wheels, etc., which would get you pretty close in terms of weight.
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: hmmm good to know. I just picked up an Occam so I'm looking forward to breaking it in!
  • 1 0
 @jclnv: "it's so stiff bro" frame is epic.
  • 1 0
 I was considering buying the one that is a spec level bellow the reviewed one but for some reason MyO and online shop is only available for select few EU countries.Not sure why, once selling internationally to some of EU countries it really is not a problem to ship to all of them... And there are no decent local shops or distributors selling them in my country.
  • 2 1
 Is there a timing on the climbs too or did we just focus on the downhill for timing? I always liked the times climbs a lot some other sites have done as often when "feels" fast to pedal isnt the same as what is. Also it's cool to know it a trail bike like this is out climbed by a better but longer travel enduro bike with a fancy suspension setup.
  • 2 0
 The timed lap for the Downcountry bikes is a full loop with a sustained climb and a sustained descent.
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: Would be nice to see a break down of climb vs descend times.
  • 6 0
 @rrolly: yep, for the DC bikes we have that.
  • 1 0
 I’m guessing (hoping) they’ll do it for the Dow country rigs
  • 3 0
 Lol oops I guess a lot of comments have come in since I last refreshed the page 3 hours ago The comment stays up so that people can learn from my mistakes
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: gotcha. Can you guys put up the climbs vs downs timing for these? If a bike is 5% faster in a loop, I'd assume that the bike was quicker on the climbs, being that the climbing segment took up the vast majority of the segment.
  • 1 0
 Orbea gave us a couple of Occam XTs to use as demo bikes at the shop I work at. Great bike, can't say that for the DT Swiss XT12 speed hub. Freehub body blew up 6 miles into the ride making it the most expensive 29er strider bike lol
  • 2 0
 Must not have been a Star drive, in which case it's a ratchet hub and they are more fragile. You can change a DT Swiss hub from ratchet to Star if you have the drive puller.
  • 6 1
 @nurseben: spend 150$ in parts and tools to turn a 100$ hub in to a 150$ hub. hahaha no thanks!
  • 1 1
 Yeah I have a buddy who had the same thing happen on their DT 12 speed freehubs. Pretty poor quality on DT's part to blow up after only a handful of rides....
  • 2 0
 Yikes that scares me as DT Swiss ratchet hubs are the only ones I truly trust, have broken several pawl'ed hubs.At first I thought you meant the mechanism which is the same regardless of freehub type but you are saying the actual freehub body cracked/broke ? Has this happened more than once ?
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: I have a DT 240 hubs. Is their a new star driver that is better that I can switch too? I love the hubs and the ratchet has been great so far but I'm curious about other options if I have to replace the ratchet 54t.
  • 2 0
 @Svinyard: No, dude. He is talking about converting the 24 click pawl freehub into the star ratchet. You already have the star ratchet.
  • 1 0
 Hi, was the rear hub an xt or an dt 3 pawl?
  • 1 0
 @xtcphil: It was a dt pawl hub with XT 12 speed cassette.
  • 1 0
 The whole time I was thinking, this sounds like Stumpy video from last year. Glad they mentioned that at the end. They sound like similar bikes. I own a stumpy and agree with most of what they said about it from the test last year. If this is as accurate then I'm sure this is also a very good bike.
  • 1 0
 Great looking bike with endless possibilities to have it painted to your liking. I had been waiting for this test review. Too bad the new SC Hightower 2020 is not part of the fieldtest. I am seriously considering any of these two. Doesn’t make it any easier to come to a decision.
Appreciate any thoughts on what to choose. Ride predominantly in (semi) flat country with occassional trips to the Alps. And yes, The Tallboy would also make a good choice...
  • 1 0
 "Occam sees the leverage ratio changed at the start for improved sensitivity, while anti-squat was bumped up by 7-percent to play nice with wide-range cassettes. Anti-rise was changed, too, dropping to a lower percentage to minimize the rear brake's influence on the suspension. "

Can you include the graphs so we can see them too?
  • 2 0
 You can take a look at those here: www.pinkbike.com/photo/17357923
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: Thanks.

Interesting - Its progressive, yet tied to an air shock with a large volume spacer which is seemingly wouldnt need. I didnt see the leverage ratio posted in the Norco Optic review, but its interesting that you noted that was also fairly progressive, but it was spec'd with a shock that should be more linear in nature.

Its funny to me that so many bike companies are now producing progressive suspension setups but spec'ing air shocks, and many of them are very progressive air shocks at that. YT has been doing it for years, but others are now following suit. Santa Cruz's new bikes are super progressive, yet you cant fit a coil on one until you get to the MegaTower - makes no sense to me.

Anyway, I digress - My point really is I'm surprised you liked the heavier Norco so much more than this, given its fairly similar geo, wheelbase, and this Orbea has nice AS/AR and LR numbers. Wonder how much comes down to that shock?
  • 4 0
 I wipe my arse with my left hand so I don’t think left handed drinking will be a problem
  • 1 0
 never got the whole too much travel argument im a big guy( 260 ish) i prefer a longer travel bike even here in indiana i have owned a lot of bikes from specialized santacruz yt intense (run a bike shop) i currently ride a yt capra alloy and love it it has 160\160 and its plush AF i view travel like this better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it just my opinion
  • 7 0
 You run a bikeshop and you own a yt?
  • 2 1
 @dlb082101: Good man. I bring a few downvotes with me everywhere I post, but a Capra is a super capable bike.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer, I’ve had two XTR 12 spd ISpec EV shifters that were faulty out of the box in the same way that this one was. When they are shifted to the largest cog then upshifted twice it won’t downshift. The thumb lever just goes through its travel without catching the ratchet mechanism. Rare for Shimano!
  • 2 0
 Left side bottle FTW! PB reviews are interesting, but the photos make it clear that your trail bike riding is nothing like 95% of the buying public.

Lucky bastids!
  • 3 1
 Looks like a perfect trail bike for someone who isnt riding downhill trails every day. Sadly, I dont fit that criteria. I guess its an enduro bike for me.
  • 1 1
 I don’t think that’s what the review said. They aren’t riding downhill trails in Pemby??? It’s lively. Sooo much fun on the downhills. It’s a style preference.
  • 1 0
 @CircusMaximus: agreed. Look at the Pros/Cons at the bottom.
  • 7 5
 Just an idea, could you do a metric weight subtitle when you mention weight? Perhaps knowing psi in bar would also be helpful or just say them in concession? Love these btw!
  • 4 0
 Burn him. He's a witch!
  • 1 0
 Left side only drink cage. Seriously. Don't try and take a drink mid drop in. You'll need both hands on the bars. No mid whip hydration, cos I'm right footed, and Damn I need mid whip H20.
  • 2 0
 Can we start speculating that Pole is putting up a fight and won't let the next field test article go live because of frame failure issues?
  • 4 0
 i could crash it
  • 1 0
 Lovely looking bike and it will keep with any trail mtb out there with the right rider on it.. But the slash is the one for me.
  • 1 0
 I remember when pink bike include a geometry chart with its bike promotion so readers didn't have to hunt the interweb to see if the bike would fit them????
  • 1 0
 Do you think could be suitable for park riding as well as trail riding?
I own a Devinci Troy do you think this Orbea could help me to improve riding?
  • 1 0
 Didn't Tomi Misser win Master DH World Championship and XC on this bike......?..........ohhh, what a Test...
  • 2 0
 no, he won DH on a Rallon and XC on an Alma. www.orbea.com/us-en/news/tomi-misser-world-champion-2019
  • 4 4
 Cool thing, if the Occam is the same as the Rallon, the frames are actually made in Spain. No Taiwanese/Chinese carbon frames, if thats something that interests you.
  • 3 3
 I believe all the Orbea frames are made in Spain under a cooperative where the employees buy into the company in order to work there.

www.orbea.com/ca-en/about-us/1969-1982
  • 15 1
 @Savagegorillas: Orbea's frames are made in the far East, they're just painted and assembled in Spain.

m.pinkbike.com/news/inside-orbea-175-years-of-manufacturing-heritage-2015.html
  • 4 1
 @mattwragg: Interesting, it would be good to get an update from Orbea, because my frame has "made in spain" stamped right into it.
  • 4 0
 @ratedgg13: "made in" is a very vague word for a bicycle. Frame in China, groupset in Japan, fork in taiwan...
Then, assembly in Spain. You can argue that the bike became a bike when it has been assembled in Spain.
It s actually the most common practice. "Made in" = "Assembled in"
  • 6 3
 A bike bike being made in Taiwan is very different than being made in China. Taiwanese bike manufacturing is excellent.
  • 2 1
 The EU is very strict about what can say "Made in" vs the US. If the majority is not made in Spain then it can't say "Made in Spain". For example I used to be into fish tanks and Eheim which is a German company had to change a filter from "Made in Germany" to "Made in China" because a critical part of the pump was not made in-house even though everything else was. Needless to say with the next revision they went back to making that part in-house and the "Made in Germany" label returned.
  • 1 0
 @gus6464: Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking. Given EU laws in this regard, I'd be kind surprised if they could say "made in Spain" based on paint and assembly alone.
  • 2 0
 @ratedgg13: Yet that is how it is in Italy. Spain probably the same.

I believe the law is very vague (probably on purpose) and mention a percentage of the fabrication but do not give an unit. Weight, material price, sweat, time, salary of the worker, some kind of unicorn unit?

Basically they can stample made in spain as long as they put a sticker on the bike.
  • 1 0
 Many years ago there I knew someone that owned a furniture store called "Europe Chair".
They would buy furniture as kits from Malaysian trade shows, assemble them at the shop and stamp "Assembled in Europe Chair". Then there's the tiny little industrial areas in china that are given names of European countries.... but that one may be a myth.
  • 1 0
 @4thflowkage: And so is Chinese. I've visited factories in both places, have you ?
  • 2 1
 Sad news. The frames are made in Asia and painted in Spain.
I nearly bought an Rallon because I thought it was made in Spain. Talked to a sales rep at a bike fair here in Switzerland and he told me straight away that the frames are made in Asia.

I saw pictures of the "made in Spain" stickers too, but apparently this sticker is earned by assembling and painting the bikes in Spain.

I think if you want to have a frame that's made in Europe, most of your options are Steel (Curtis, Stanton, BTR, and so on etc.) and a few Aluminum (Pole, Nicolai, Kavenz, Orange) companies. Carbon... only a handful like Hope, Stoll and Unno.
  • 2 0
 @nowherenear: Now I'm sad Frown Oh well, next bike is going to be aluminum anyways.
  • 1 0
 @nowherenear: Forgot the kings of carbon: Antidote
  • 2 0
 @ratedgg13: I bought an aluminum Giant Reign in Germany and it said "made in the Netherlands". I was happy about that but as I thought about it, I thought there's no way. Why would Giant set up a complicated aluminum frame factory in the Netherlands and Taiwan? It would be too complicated for quality control and consistent manufacturing. Somebody told me that the bikes were indeed assembled in the Netherlands, and thus could wear a "made in the Netherlands" sticker. I don't know the EU law, but I do know that almost all frames are made in Taiwan and China, both aluminum and carbon. I wonder what frames are made in Europe or the US or Canada these days.
  • 1 0
 @ratedgg13: I you want a frame that's made in Canada: I think Devinci still make their alloy frames in Canada.
  • 1 0
 @dirtyburger: Thanks, didn't know about Antidote. In fact, I also forgot around 1000 custom steel welders and many more companies :-) Just wanted to give some examples.
  • 3 0
 Damn good looking bike!
  • 7 5
 PB summary: "28lbs of 'meh'."
  • 2 0
 Too busy jizzing over the Norco
  • 2 0
 Isn't the head angle 66degs with 140mm, then 65.5degs with a 150mm fork?
  • 2 0
 seems like the bike for me - we both dress to the left
  • 3 2
 Ok, it's a linkage driven single pivot. The part in the video about linkage types made my head hurt.
  • 2 0
 M10, M30 and M-LTD builds are up on Bikedigger.com for comparison.
  • 1 0
 Why would it not be composed on the descent? I think something must not be right about the shock or fork.
  • 1 0
 Nothing wrong with the suspension components, it's just got a little less descent-oriented geometry than the rest of the bikes we tested in the Trail category.
  • 2 2
 da fuk, for same piece I can build Nicolai/pole

at least it’s going to be one of the kind not one of those mass produced china specialeds.
  • 1 0
 Why would you make a bike without ISCG tabs so you can’t run a bash guard without a stupid bb mount.
  • 1 0
 I have the 2019 and it really is such a sweet ride, not looking to upgrade just yet but I have no doubt this one slaps!
  • 1 0
 Where’s the next bike review???

Who cares about milk toast ....

More cowbell!
  • 1 0
 Geometry is in the database for comparison...
geometrygeeks.bike/bike/orbea-occam-2020
  • 1 0
 Capability count: 1. The scores so far:
Norco: 3; Orbea: 1; Pole: 2; Intense: 0
  • 1 0
 I wish I would someday read a bicycle review that refuses to use the word "capable."
  • 4 3
 I just dont dig this asimetric frames...
  • 16 1
 That's like your opinion maaaan
  • 4 0
 It's not like it's eyes or breasts...
  • 2 0
 @ReformedRoadie: Most breasts are asymetric. Luckily eyes not so much.
  • 1 0
 Does it come with a 100mm dropper?
  • 1 0
 Yeah, but where's the huck to flat photo?
  • 2 0
 It was right at beginning of the video. Looked quite composed bottoming out.
  • 2 0
 No ISCG?! Booo!
  • 1 0
 Great looking frame design, cheers to the design team.
  • 1 0
 8 flipping GGGGs. ridiculously expensive
  • 1 0
 This bike can handle any trail in Denmark. Perfekt bike.
  • 1 0
 Would like to hear if a 160mm fork would have made a difference???
  • 1 2
 Not named Session, it looks like every bike out there...just different sticker!
  • 2 2
 why 1 bike a day? release them all..
  • 1 1
 Great for a shit ton of riders. *(dentists)
  • 1 2
 Hole Lee Fook , that's a lot of skrill. 8 k would have been half the cost of a house in 1955...give or take a year or two.
  • 3 1
 We found another boomer who can't do inflation adjustment.
  • 1 0
 @JohanG: This Boomer sh!t is getting old now.
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