Field Trip: 10 Value Bikes Hucked to Flat In Slow Motion (1000FPS)

 If anyone can watch this and still think derailleurs don't need replaced with a low drag gearbox, we cant be friends.

 Yeah my main observation was the rear derailleurs bouncing about everywhere. Looked to have been a fast run in, in a high gear. It'd be a balancing act getting enough clutch support Vs light feel at the shifter and minimal effect on suspension action due to chain growth.

 @wallheater: The Trance really had that thing swinging.

 I was actually quite surprised the chains stayed put especially as on a few they properly dragged across the floor.

 @Glenngineer: the armchair engineer in me thinks that someone forgot to turn the clutches on on some of those derailleurs (I think the Trance has a Shimano derailleur?).

 @cougar797: The amount of chain slapping the pavement was pretty eye opening.

 @Glenngineer: That was amazing. It looked like what I imagine a slingshot band looks like after being released.

 @cougar797: I don't think anyone disagrees with you. The problem is that a "low drag gearbox" has not yet been invented.

 @cougar797: Just get a chain guide, I even put one on my commuter bike

 @fullendurbro: I’ve ridden the pinion and it isn’t bad. If SRAM or shimano had spent 12 speed development dollars on that we’d almost be there by now I bet.

 @GeorgeCh: No doubt but that’s still bandaiding the real problem.

 @fullendurbro: Yes it has!
worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2434565&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
Your just not allowed to buy them!
But you can make your own, by putting covers over your current drive, it even makes it last longer!

 @wallheater: The Trance X3 they tested has a SRAM SX rear derailleur. One more reason to upgrade to the X2 with Shimano drivetrain.

 @cougar797: I think the problem is that ebikes have taken over that part of the bike and manufacturers don't want to risk developing a frame for gearboxes while they are swimming in that sweet ebike money

 @aljoburr: too slack of a seat tube angle in that drawing...gearbox would never work

 @old-tube: Could very well be right. E bikes still have the same derailleur issue. Really it makes even more sense with an ebike. Who cares if there is a smidge of drag then?

 Would be interesting "10 Walmart bikes hucked to flat"

 @andreyf1: agree, I would love to see bike explode at 1000fps. Not sure the ramp could take that abuse though

 @fullendurbro: throw hypoid gears in a pinion gear box and low drag will be attained, BUT the gearbox will be much more expensive as hypoid gears are much more expensive to make.

 Agreed, I knew the derailleurs would be bouncing around but was impressed by some of these forks. That Canyon for the dough is quite impressive.

 @cougar797: If only Rohloff hubs were 1/3 the price and a bit lighter.

 @SuperHighBeam: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only advantage of the hypoid gear layout over a regular bevel and spiral bevel is the non intersecting axes of rotations? I imagine in a bike application a regular bevel is probably desirable for lower cost of manufacture and lower thrust loads. I think the issue at the end of the day is gear boxes are bulky and expensive.

For the sake of argument, lets consider that your making 1000watts and pedaling at 100rpm to make that. So were at ball park 70ftlb of torque to make that happen. You probably need a hell of a factor of safety to make up for janky trails and stomping on pedals. Les assume 2x for that factor of safety. Now you need a tiny efficient gear box that can take 140 ft lb? Not saying thats high torque, but its for sure not a light duty gear box. I like the idea of gear boxes, I just see why its a really really hard engineering problem to solve.

 @tbev: You've made me remember something of criticality here; hypoid gears are only used where power transfer is changing direction (often by 90 degrees through a pinion and ring gear). The hypoid arrangement does in fact only differ from spiral gears and spiral (helical) gears in that the axes are offset and non intersecting. The main advantage of that is that you can make the pinion stronger by having a larger shaft diameter. Since a change of power direction is not necessary on a bicycle and we're just looking to reduce resistance in a bicycle gearbox, the thing to do would be to replace the straight cut gears of a Pinion (or similar) gearbox with helical gears. Throw in some high-quality bearings and it will be silky smooth. No need or purpose for hypoid gears; I stand partially corrected.

 @flowfiend: I'd argue that the Rohloffs are only slightly better because of their planetary design. They too have straight-cut spur gears. They would be better and smaller with helical cut gears, but that would also make them more expensive and they're already crazy expensive.

 @tbev: I would also add that if a Pinion gearbox were outfitted with helical gears the gearbox could be smaller as the gears themselves would not need to be as large since helical gears are stronger. There would be about a 5% improvement in drag and the gearbox would be virtually silent. Perhaps this modest efficiency is why Pinion has not gone with helical gears. Yet all of automotive and motorcycle is helical gears so why not bicycles? Yes the power transmission is much lower, but that just means you can make the gears much smaller. I think this has more to do with supply and demand. There just isn't a high enough demand to make a helical bicycle gearbox cost-effective, hence they cut costs and make a draggy straight cut box that enough will buy to sustain their business. If demand for them grows, a better helical version is likely inevitable.

 @SuperHighBeam: Actually, I've been playing around with using a hypoid gear for a lighter ebike motor. In a single stage you can get the needed 40:1 reduction that allows for a much lighter motor. Since its only a single stage instead of several like in current ebikes, it would also be quieter (plus hypoid gears are known for their relative silence) and lighter, without all the extra gears for reduction. The 90 degree turn would allow for more interesting placements of the motor I would like to think.

 @SuperHighBeam: Pinion has said they couldn't use helical gears because of the lateral loads they exert.

There are three main issues with Pinon's design that contributes to its drag:

1. Large double seal on chainring. Since it drives a chainring concentric with the cranks, but the cranks and chainring spin at different speeds, a large seal is needed on each side of the ring. If you take that seal off, drag is noticeably reduced (until all the oil leaks out of your transmission, that is).
2. Multi-staged design. The Pinion (the 18 speed version) is a 6 speed gearset with two overdrives. Once you leave the lowest 6 gears, you're in an overdrive with an additional 4 gears being engaged, increasing drag.
3. Fixed gears on main shaft. The gears on the main shaft that are connected to the crankarms are fixed, always. The counter shaft has free floating gears that are engaged with pawls. That means when you're in a specific gear, only one gear on the countershaft transmits torque back to the main shaft, but all the gears in the whole transmission are still spinning. This is probably one of the greatest sources of drag.

Interestingly, the Effigear approach mostly solves the first two problems, but no one cares about it because its always on ugly frames.

 @flowfiend: Kindernay makes whats essentially a lighter, more adaptable transmission hub. Its 300 grams (pound and a half) heavier than Eagle XO.

Some guy did some testing on a dyno, and in the lower gears a Rohloff is actually just as efficient as 1x11 (pre 12 speed) because of the offset chainline. In 11 and 12 speed cassettes, the lowest gears are dramatically off the ideal chainline, and that creates drag. 12 speed is particularly bad as the largest cog is dished out over the spokes!

 @hamncheez: The offset output shaft on the Effigear also facilitates a higher pivot suspension design. I've always wondered why Pinions are so much more common, although I'm sure there must be some reasons I'm just not aware of.

 @hamncheez:

300 grams =/= 1.5 pounds, 448 grams to the pound and all.

 @andreyf1: Haha! I would love to see that. not sure many people would be brave enough to try that

 @cougar797: probably won’t because margin on selling chains, cassettes, cables etc is gooooood.

 @hllclmbr: good catch; it's about 600 grams heavier than a comparable eagle xo setup

 my $50 microshift clutched derailleur on my $500 hardtail performs better than clutches on budget Shimano or SRAM drivetrain

 @hllclmbr: Is that a british pound, because the last time I looked, it's 454 grams/pound.

 That Marshall. So refined!

 @mior: I love my advent X. It shifts as good as anything from Sram, is lighter than GX, and the clutch works really well. It the only downside is the HG freehub and lower range.

 JuSt gEt a 29er sO YuO dOn'T haVe yoUr chaIn SlaP the GroUnD

 @hamncheez: Interesting. I concur with the silencing benefit of using hypoid gears. I suppose it could work if the motor was oriented longitudinally rather than laterally but I suspect you would need a really wide bottom bracket which could really throw off your Q-factor, but I agree you could have a very minimalist gear box using a single stage hypoid pair, or a hybrid 2-stage with 1st stage using spiral gears and a 2nd stage with hypoid gears.

 @SuperHighBeam: Only one way to find out!

 @hamncheez: And yet, automobiles use helical gears all the time. I'm certain Pinion could design using them, they're just choosing not too likely due to cost.

This "Large double seal on chainring. Since it drives a chainring concentric with the cranks, but the cranks and chainring spin at different speeds, a large seal is needed on each side of the ring. If you take that seal off, drag is noticeably reduced (until all the oil leaks out of your transmission, that is)," is incorrect. Pinion bikes use a toothed belt with a belt ring on the outside of the gear box. Yes the gearbox is sealed on each side to keep the oil in and the dirt out. There are not seals on both sides of the belt ring.

This "2. Multi-staged design. The Pinion (the 18 speed version) is a 6 speed gearset with two overdrives. Once you leave the lowest 6 gears, you're in an overdrive with an additional 4 gears being engaged, increasing drag.
3. Fixed gears on main shaft. The gears on the main shaft that are connected to the crankarms are fixed, always. The counter shaft has free floating gears that are engaged with pawls. That means when you're in a specific gear, only one gear on the countershaft transmits torque back to the main shaft, but all the gears in the whole transmission are still spinning. This is probably one of the greatest sources of drag" really just amounts to there are too many gears engaged most of the time which creates a lot of parasitic drag. The fact that the gears are straight cut does not help the situation.

I concur the effigear does solve most of the problems. Why it isn't more popular...probably a weak marketing/sales department. I doubt it's due to a lack of interest.

 @cadekroek91: I have a 29er and many of the bikes in the test video were 29ers, so what's your point?

 @hamncheez: Go try it out and let me know how well it works!

 @SuperHighBeam: The bottom line with Effigear is that its only found on ugly bikes (that Starling prototype being an exception). So ya weak marketing I suppose.

The Pinion actually does have a single helical gear, the overdrive gear that transmits torque back to the main shaft:
www.cyclingabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Pinion-Gearbox-Explained.jpg

I suspect that helical gears have a minimum RPM at which they are effective, and they are much more expensive to manufacture. Having just one, and on the output of the overdrive means it will be running at a much higher RPM than the rest of the gears. Also, its at the end, against the gearbox housing, so the lateral torque can be more easily dealt with. These are just all my guesses.

 @flowfiend: Yes could be all that with 7 speed version!

 Geartype:
For a bycycle you need a low drag so you should go with a straigth gears if the space allows it.
Straigth gear: efficiency good - running behaviour bad - applicable torque bad - costs good
Angled gear: efficiency bad - running behaviour good - applicable torque good - costs bad
See hypoid gear just as the angled counter part to cone gears

Pinion:
True for the sealing and bearing type. Sealing might be manageable but the output shaft runns on two needle bearing. those are necessary for the load and space case. But are pretty bad for drag. A huge problem for applicable torque and smoothness of running is, that the gears run directly on the input shaft and
1. the 1,2,3,7,8,9,13,14,15th gear all runs by big pitch gears --> bad running behaviour
2. the 1st gear is big pitch to be able to (at least) handle as much load as possible. But in my oppinion not enough. Effigear is a little bit more robust here

Effigear:
- Sealing could be slightly better than pinion. But still 3 seals. But this might always be the case with a gearbox
- Gearing technology is a simple a it gets. So you will always be compromised by the size of the whole box. gear steps will enlarge width and range the overall size. So with the same spec as pinion this thing will be way bigger and heavier.
- At least effigear uses a big 1 stage gear to reduce torque for the shifting gears

 @ferrariharry: I'm not sure where you're coming up with bad efficiency for "angled" gears. I also think there may be some confusion about what we're talking about here. The discussion has evolved to comparing straight cut spur gears to straight helical gears (as opposed to beveled or angled). Helical gears are better than straight cut gears is virtually all matters except for strength and cost. Top Fuel dragsters and other motorsport transmissions often use straight cut spur gear transmissions because strength and durability are more important than efficiency and low drag given the way they are used. For a bicycle, though, the low resistance and efficient power transmission offered by a helical straight profile (not beveled or angled gears, those are only necessary for changing direction of power transmission) would be welcome and sufficient. The high strength of a "dog box" really isn't needed in this application. An Effigear style transmission with helical gears would work really well on a bicycle but packaging the gearbox to be small and light would be notably difficult as helical gears tend to be wider than straight cut spur gears.

 You can run the seat really low on that bike... guess that's the downside

 Looks like it was incredibly close, if not touching, the seat-tube. A few other of the FS bikes looked like the wheel would hit a fully-slammed saddle too.

 You could actually see it stop the bike a little. Scary.

 the heck with the seat... it looks like it was wrecking the back of the seat tube?!

 ....that cannot be right, though the Ripley DOES have frame protection in that exact area. May be the cost benefit of addressing it simply isn't there for an aluminum frame?? ...or it was designed for different tires but supply issues have forced Ibis to go a different route? I cannot imagine that happens on the carbon version. Can any Ripley owners chime in?

 @rhamej: curious if they had the wheel off a different bike and that was a 2.6 tire, maybe? only a 2.4 max. I'm too lazy to look it up.

 Ibis folded like a cheap suit

 @SATN-XC: I have a V4 that I've bottomed out at speed off about 4ft high. No rubs on the seat tube with either a 2.3 Aggressor or 2.4 Rekon. With the Rekon though I've been running an RPP fender...no smacks or hits that I can remember.

 I had an Mojo HD gen 1, stock spec'd tires buzzed the seat tube on bike park runs. A bit disappointed to see they haven't addressed this issue.

 @fruitsd79: On Ibis's page for the Ripley AF it claims clearance for 2.6" tires

 In the event of a harsh bottom out the ibis does the job (of applying rear brake) for you. This was an intentional design decision.

 @ABhardtail: Yeah they say the carbon model has clearance for 2.6 tires too. From pics I've seen clearance is super tight.

 @SATN-XC: I have the carbon ripley g4. A 2.5 aggressor does not touch the seat tube at hard bottom out. The seat tube on this bike is super low. The seat would definitely hit tire with post slammed. Its not a problem with my 180mm dropper clamped at a reasonable height.

 probably an asterisk somewhere in the specs that you have to run a "high tail" saddle if you run your seat below x height
www.commencalusa.com/dh-saddle-wtb-high-tail-pro-c2x32236833

 This got mentioned on the original test video. I have the same bike in the garage. Also size large. Rear tire is a 2.6 Rekon on mine. All air out of the shock, I can't get the wheel to touch the seat tube. I'm a big guy (user name checks out), and I have bottomed the bike a number of times in the 3.5 months I've had it - and the seat tube shows no signs of tire contact. Can't figure out what's going on in that video.....

 @FatTonyNJ: I think the test bike is a medium.....could be the issue is just with the smaller frames?! Jason could also weigh 300 lbs for all we know

 @FatTonyNJ: Same shock too? Bottom out bumpers are not all created equal. The tolerances on al frames are often not that great, but it'd surprise me if it was that. It certainly hits the seat, and gets close to the seat tube, but hard to tell if it rubs it or not. Either way, it should have a bit more clearance to the seat tube.

 @FatTonyNJ: I have a Medium Ripley AF and have bottomed out with a 2.4 Minion DHR II. I've never had rub on the seat tube. Even when my post is slammed, I haven't had tire rub. The only time the rear tire ever buzzed anything is when I attempted to use my old Backcountry Research strap under the seat to carry a spare tube.

 @SATN-XC: my buddy had a medium ripmo AF, the wheel hit the saddle at bottom-out. Ibis customer service told him to go buy a different saddle lol. Kinda surprised they made the same mistake on the Ripley tho

 Not the same bike, but I had a V1 Ripley and my 2.25 tire would leave a skid mark on the seat tube after every drop.

 @UtahBrent: that's crazy hearing everyone talking about this. Seems like a huge problem lol. So much for wanting an ibis in the future.

 It bottoms out so hard... Not enough progression in the rear linkage.

 @moffquigley:

 @BikeRipperVT: with the spec'd 2.6 it looks very close to rubbing the seatpost, but I don't think it actually touched, the camera angle is a bit off to make it look that way. Best test is to remove all air from the shock and verify. My V4 has not touched that tube at all, from all types of trails with similar jumps.

 Divide by zero percent?

 @vapidoscar: NaN

 It looks to me like the clutch was OFF in a few of the tests. You can see the lever in the OFF position on some of the bikes. I suspect that was the case on the GIANT too.

 @OMC-ride2much: I think the Giant has a Sram derailleur.

 @cedric-eveleigh: Yup. Good point. I should have known that.....

 Yes. Flop city.

 Some play in that dropper!

 I think it has something to do with the dropper post not the saddle

 @SATN-XC: I think that’s even more concerning....

 Oh, that's just the live post feature. It intelligently varies your effective seat tube angle based on the conditions.

 And the bars! That flex.

 It's called 'compliance', look it up

 Yeah, the saddle or the post or both have some serious play.

 Just look at the form of the top tube and the question answers itself

 The NORCO fork looked like it was just going to snap off.

 @Philthy503: mentioned this below in the comments. does he hit the front brake? the whole wheel comes to a complete stop halfway through the fork's compression, then the rest of the bike compresses forward into the fork while the front wheel stays stuck. I'm no engineer but that does not look right

 I'm not convinced that the Sentier's bottom headset cup didn't pop loose...

 @SATN-XC: im pretty sure that in initial impact it flexed forward a bit and then „rebounded“ to its intended form while the bike was moving forward, making it look like it stopped moving

 @SATN-XC: If you watch the front rim compared to the ground you can see one part of what's going on, the wheel itself bounces on the tire at least once in the time that it takes for the riders weight to come all the way onto the bike and the fork to fully compress, so the speed that the fork is compressing at is changing throughout the travel because the axle and the bottom of the legs is going up and down as the crown comes downward.
The other thing is fork flex, as the legs flex forward you can see that it causes the forks to bind, because as the forks bounce back to straight, you see them suddenly compress more as they free up when the bushings are all in line for a moment.

 Yeah - I thought I saw pedal axles flexing too. Hard to say tbh - camera angles etc can be odd, e.g. I can't say I think I saw handlebar flex, but others are saying they did.

Either way for me almost all the obvious flex is in the forks, everything else is 2nd or even 3rd order.

(and tyres, if you count compression as flex. Quite interesting how the tyres seem to compress twice - first compression seems to be transferred to fork compression, then when the fork is compressed the tyre starts compressing again).

 Everything's a Spring: The Movie.

 @timbarnes: Bar flex is especially noticeable with the Marin.

 I'm amazed how much the chains slap around

 @fartymarty: ah yes, sx/nx "clutches" work so well...

 I was expecting the sx drive trains to flop around, but I'm just surprised how much all the deore one slapped the ground too. No one apparently makes a stout derailleur haha.

 Or rear rotor, for that matter?

 There was no back rotor as well.

 they said they swapped wheels between bikes and with the XC roots it probably comes with smaller rotors than they had on the test wheels so they just removed them. that's my guess at least

 @SleepingAwake: Totally makes sense! Thank you

 @SleepingAwake: fingers still covering the brakes...instint init

 @SleepingAwake: bingo!, that makes sense

 OMG. I bet it's all done in search of a solution to the epidemic wAnDeRiNg biTe pOiNt ScAnDaL!!n1!

 It looks like the clutches arent working.

 You can get the xc Cushcore…there’s two types. I run the xc in the front and the regular dh/enduro in the rear.@SATN-XC

 @Jasonbourne: I understanding the impact protection but do you know if the cush cores also help the tire stay on the rim (prevent burping) if I run a lower PSI compared to not having the cush cores?

 Absolutely @SATN-XC:

 @SATN-XC: the first try time you install Cush Core you will realize how exactly how much more the tire beam stays interfaced with the rim. It’s not impossible, but madness to install.

 @Jasonbourne: badass, thank you for the info

 It is a nightmare to install. @bh406:

 @bh406: I've heard this...sounds like a nice task for my LBS; I'm not going to mess around

 i've been running cushcore for 3 months now, i didnt notice anything untill i started adding more sh*t to my bike, I put a hand pump, a co2 canister, 2 multitools, 2 tireplug kits, 1 chainbreaker and i always carry a 0.75 litter water bottle. I am not a backpack person so i always put evereything on my bike.
Anyway.. i just noticed the weight increase this last tuesday when i went to a jump session, it was harder for me to pull the bike at first, but then i kinda got used to it and started to do barturns and all, so i guess you will be fine.
I am also ridding a commencal Meta, it is a very heavy bike.

But if you only add the cushcore you wont feel a thing.

 @Jasonbourne: it is, stop doing Tire sh%t on your bikes, leave that to your LBS, focus on something else instead.

 Are you super-hucking like this on hard landings often?

 @weeknightwarrior: that was like a 2 foot kicker to flat. Hardly call it a super huck. There's plenty of chunky drops around larger than that.

 I was thinking the same(i guess) while watching at 0.25x... In some bikes It seems almost as the rear suspension starts to work only after the tire rebounds instead of at the first impact.

 Problem is if you run the clutch tension up, you start to run into shifting issues, it's a fine balance. You can try this yourself if you have a Shimano derailleur, the clutch tension is adjustable.

 Lol there's a reason they don't have the clutch tension any higher. If anything that was amazing to see how well they worked. None of them came off. In normal riding you wouldn't notice a thing. That's them working perfectly as intended, more clutch tension would just lead to terrible shifting which you'd instantly notice.

 If the chain stays on why is it shaking your confidence in the system? Derailleurs need to be able to do this to work - if they didn't then your suspension movement would snap your chain

 @BlackVR: That's a good point, but I suspect you should be able to run considerably more tension than the factory setting and still have good shifting. The clutches did not appear to offer any discernable benefit in those huck to flat tests.

 @DylanH93: I didn't see any chains come off, but all of them hit the ground. They worked, but I just don't feel they did quite what I'd expect them to do, but perhaps if an impact like that only permitted the arm to swing say 90 degrees then perhaps the bike would not shift worth a darn. I have a chain guide to prevent my chain from falling off. I expect the clutch to keep the chain from hitting obstacles and bouncing around too much. This video showed me the clutch really doesn't do much to prevent the chain from bouncing around and hitting low-laying obstacles.

 @sargey2003: Because I expect the clutch to prevent the chain from bouncing around as I ride over obstacles to protect the chain. The clutch did not prevent the chain from hitting the ground in any of these video clips. Yes it is an extreme scenario but it does make me question how well the clutch really does its job of protecting the chain from impacts with the ground and obstacles. I do not expect the clutch to keep the chain on the chainring, that's what I have a chainguide for.

 @BlackVR: I did not know the clutch tension was adjustable...I may have to go fiddle with this now.

 I feel like the challenge of installing cush core is way over blown having heard about the pain for a while I recently installed a set on my bike and was actually surprised how simple it went, wasn't really much longer than installing tubes into a tire. Following the instructions they give it only took about 15 minutes to do both wheels

 Yeah. If you use a folding tire. Try a dh casing wire bead @ChiefBearPaw:

 They used two sets of wheels for this test. It's explained in the intro...

 most of em probably.

 you can. you just wouldnt be able to shift.

 Yes it does

 I had to go back and rewatch that part, but I think I know why. They said that they only put the cushcore on a couple sets of wheels, since it's way easier to switch wheels between bikes than install cushcore 10 times. I bet the rotors that had been on those specific wheels just didn't mesh the the BMC's calipers for whatever reason.

 How did the talk with your father go?

 There is! check us out for all your training equipment needs! We have ramps for all sizes, landing, table tops, rollers, manual machines, limbo hurdles, balance beams, cycling specific balance boards, and much, much, more! www.sender-rampsusa.com Thanks for using the Sender 500 Curved with 650 and Orbit Extension Pink Bike! Get your orders in because the inventory flies out the door!

 I want to know as well. It threw me off and I went back to see if they were just seeming invisible from a trick of the light...but NO ROTORS

 should it have been?

 The drivetrain blocks the view of the suspension in some cases.

 @jmtbf:
Yes !

 @PTyliszczak:
There you go!
You are close, but not right there!

 it probably wasnt because jason rides right foot forward and his legs wouldve been in the way of the suspension but i too want a better view of the drivetrain carnage.

 @laceloop: "drivetrain carnage"
True !
They don't want to show as
how outdated this system is !

 @TARTARA: I am going to guess that you are pro gear box then

 @jmtbf: Yes ! m.pinkbike.com/news/sram-granted-patent-for-drivetrain-with-a-direct-mount-derailleur.html

 It looks custom.

 Sender Ramps USA 500 Curved + 650 + Orbit extension. Our biggest set up for maximum huck to flat!

We have ramps of all sizes, for all types of skills from steep to sweet! Check us out for all your ramping, coaching, and cycling specific training needs!

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 @SenderRampsUSA: did you do the customization for them? What made me say that it looks custom is that it has "Huck to Flat" engraved.