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First Look: Orange Stage 6 Evo

Nov 30, 2021
by Matt Beer  

Building on their 29" wheeled bike range, Orange has added the Stage 6 Evo to their catalogue as their go-to aggressive trail bike. In true Orange fashion, the bike uses a single pivot layout that they have refined over decades of trials - adjustments are nowhere to be found.

Orange's unique look is immediately recognized, but deciphering the subtleties between each model can be puzzling. Touting 140 mm of rear wheel travel, this Stage 6 Evo is a combination of the regular Stage 6 with 10 mm more travel and the zippy 120 mm Stage Evo. The geometry follows closely to the enduro focused Stage 6, but Orange says it remains well balanced and "hair-raisingly fast".

Stage 6 Evo Details

• Aluminum frame
• Travel: 140 mm / 150 mm fork
• 29" wheels
• Offset pivot and asymmetrical chainstay heights
• 64-degree head angle
• 76-degree seat tube angle
• 467 mm chainstays
• Sizes: M, L, XL
• Price: £6,400 GBP
orangebikes.com






Frame Details

Fans of the iconic single pivot bikes will be excited to hear that the 6061-T6 aluminum frame is still built in Britain and has a 5-year warranty with a limited lifetime crash replacement policy. Thinner cross-sectional, custom formed monocoque tubing contributes to a claimed 20% more longitudinal stiffness and a 15% increase in overall strength. Orange has offset the chainstay heights to ride asymmetrically and moved the pivot shaft inboard further on the drive side to free up space for the chainring. They also say that a neutral pivot position allows for progressive suspension kinematics and a more rigid frame allows for smoother shock actuation.

You'll find standard equipment like Boost hub spacing, internal cable routing, UDH capability, and now a top tube accessory mount under the top tube. Water bottle capacity is located under the downtube. There are also ISCG tabs under the BB should you want to invest in chainring protection and security.


Geometry

Whether or not Orange believes that short riders are better suited to 27.5" wheels, the Stage 6 Evo is only available in MD, LG, and XL sizes. However, some of their 27.5" wheeled bikes drop down to size SM, like the Alpine series. They say the geometry is well balanced, but the chainstay number jumps off the page with a staggering 467 mm length on all three sizes. The reach numbers don't stray too far from one another at less than a 20 mm gap between them, starting at 468 mm for the size medium and topping out at 505 for the XL.

With a head angle of 64º and a seat tube angle of 76º, those numbers aren't wildly progressive, but are a common ground that should bode well for diverse regions. Stack heights are on the higher side at 630 mm for the MD and LG (640 for the XL) due to a -40 mm BB drop, keeping in mind that the head tubes are average heights of 110 mm for the smaller size and 120 for the XL. This should allow taller riders to feel "in the bike" more without the need to raise their bar height, ultimately leading to chipping away at the reach number.







Built Kit

For the moment, only the premium SE model is available ringing in at £6,400, but Orange will announce more options in the near future. The build kit is spec'd with parts that are less standard than typical Fox or SRAM componentry. Staying close to home, you'll find a short 35 mm length Hope Tech stem and 3 E4 brakes with 203 and 180 mm floating rotors, 35 mm clamp diameter Renthal FatBars, and from just a hop across the water; Ohlins Swedish gold in the form of an air sprung RXF 36 M.2 fork and TTX1 Air.

To carry through the Orange's no fuss ethos, standard equipment like Shimano's SLX drivetrain bits are mated to Race Face Aeffect cranks and Stan's burlier Flow MK4 wrapped in Maxxis Minon DHF/DHR II Exo tires. Topping it off, the Ox Blood Red painted frame is finished with Strange grips, Orange's pseudonym, and a SDG Bel Air III saddle on a 150 mm Tellis dropper post.




323 Comments

  • 275 23
 We know all the jokes and comments that will come out now. But I think of Orange slightly differently.

To use a sports car analogy, Santa Cruz are Ferrari, Yeti are Lamborghini, Specialized are Porsche. And Orange are like Caterham, or Morgan. They're not trying to be the same thing as the 'big boys'. In it's way the product is competitive, but it's also traditional, idiosyncratic and a little bit obnoxious. In that sense you either get it, or you don't. And if you don't get it then I don't think Caterham/Morgan/Orange really care. They'll continue to do their thing and you can take it or leave it.

In the same way nobody cross-shops a new Morgan and a new Ferrari, I don't think many/any are cross-shopping Santa Cruz and Orange. Maybe 3/5/8 years ago they did, but not any more. By buying a brand new Orange, same as brand new Caterham or Morgan, you are making something of a statement.
  • 150 4
 Making something of a dent in your bank statement.
  • 16 86
flag mrrichardh (Nov 30, 2021 at 4:08) (Below Threshold)
 Your 'idiosyncratic and a little obnoxious' is my 'mind-numbingly boring.' Different strokes.
  • 50 2
 @mrrichardh: Orange bikes are the opposite of boring to ride. Honestly.
  • 134 8
 Santa cruz most definitely are not ferrari, they are the second most common mtb company now. So think of them more as an Audi A5
  • 123 35
 Orange are Porsche.
Laziest design team in the world,
Looks the same as all the others on the surface, but actually due to many years of tweeking the same car/frame a really finely balanced thing that works very very well
Something you can comfortably daily-drive, but that still hassle the full fat super cars on a track.

They also age well. Whats cooler, the latest plastic fantastic, or a well worn classic.
  • 7 4
 Beautifully made, yet fundamentally flawed. I loved my Orange Five in so many ways but the noise...........
  • 17 8
 @OllyR: But Porsche are beautiful and elegant. I would make the same statement for Orange Smile
  • 4 3
 @rich-2000:
They're more like Ferrari prices than Audi!
  • 8 4
 @rich-2000: where did you get that? As far as could find Trek are first, Giant are second and Specialized third. That leaves SC behind. Anyway Audy aren't second either so who cares?
  • 3 0
 @OllyR: or smartest if you can rinse something for 10 years and make money why not ....other perspectives are also available
  • 46 9
 I mean If Santa Cruz is Ferrari and Yeti Lamborghini.

Unno = Mclaren
Antidote = Bugatti

I have to agree with @rich-2000 But more on the lines you see them more often than you think.

Specialized = Toyota
Trek = Honda
Giant = General Motors
Santa Cruz = Lexus
Scott = Acura
Yeti = Infinity

Unno = Lamborghini
Antidote = Ferrari

Anything home made and extremely limited = bugatti
  • 128 0
 What's Pontiac? Ellsworth?
  • 30 8
 After owning one for two years, I'd say that Specialized more cloesly resembles modern Mercedes Benz: Decent, but not great. Completely middle of the road in any regard imaginable. Deliberately unexciting, almost a bit bland. Completely devoid of any interesting character in an effort to fit as many roles as possible. Their products also have two more details in common: They are both overpriced and the production quality is a lot lower than it should be.
  • 8 0
 @SimonJaeger: @SimonJaeger: I agree. I'd rate Specialized as Mercedes Benz or BMW. Both are pretty similar anyway.
  • 8 1
 Decent comparison. But IMO Specialized would more closely resemble Audi than Porsche - as Audi is basically Porsche with all the excitement taken out.
  • 1 10
flag pinkbikepinkbike (Nov 30, 2021 at 6:54) (Below Threshold)
 @BenTheSwabian: clearly never owned an audi
  • 8 17
flag freeridejerk888 (Nov 30, 2021 at 6:54) (Below Threshold)
 Orange is not a sports car. It’s a old Mac truck that was and always will be crap
  • 7 5
 How in the hell can trek be Honda when ever bike constantly breaks. That’s commencal @kroozctrl:
  • 11 0
 I don't really see the obnoxious part, except perhaps for the higher price. It's just a fine aluminium bike, maybe the finest one around. It's not "retro", it's a design with advantages and compromises like any other, although to tell the truth, if the weight is as moderate as claimed, the stiffness is as good as claimed, and the pivot is well placed as it seems to be, the only drawback I see here is the lack of an inboard bottle mount.
  • 1 1
 @rickybobby18: Saturn, lets give Pontiac to... I don't know Iron Horse? Who gets Cadillac. Really all the GM brands should be all the FSR based since there's so dang many.
  • 3 0
 @rickybobby18: But if we're really going to mess with the MTBers....what's Subaru? Canyon?
  • 4 2
 @DavidGuerra: I was going to ask in this thread, are Orange bikes actually fast for a semi fast normal bloke compared to like, my specialized Enduro? As I get older, Oranges seem to appeal more. I like the idea of a bloke in a shed 25 miles away welding them out of metal.
But how do they ride? Sure, pros can make anything go fast. Are normals better on a Horst link though?
  • 1 1
 @makkelijk84: I hear that a lot. Where is the noise coming from? Creaking? Chain slap?
  • 2 11
flag digitalsoul (Nov 30, 2021 at 7:47) (Below Threshold)
 A better analogy is owning an Orange Bike is like owning a Pinto back in the day. The car worked and got you from point a to b. But you wouldn't want to brag or admit to owning one and you continually had to defend the car.
  • 3 5
 Orange = Yugo
  • 7 3
 Is Orange more as a Jeep, just a basic utilitarian bicycle.
  • 1 0
 @DBone95: All that hollow frame space amplifies everything. Maybe even the riders' heart beat.
  • 3 5
 @kroozctrl: & Liteville = koenigsegg
  • 2 1
 @jaame: Ride beautifully for this 50 y/o.
  • 3 0
 @mickymike2000: you're talking about production and you're right. But look up at PDS or local Enduro races and in terms of hype you'll probably see a majority of SC's over the bigger companies.
  • 11 1
 Comparing bicycle brands to car brands will almost entirely be a personal preference thing and not reflect anything in reality beyond the individual’s limited perspective
  • 1 0
 @rich-2000: Only goes to show, that bikes are still not affordable than sports cars. If everybody who really wanted to could afford a Ferrari, you‘d see more of those, too.
  • 8 0
 Caterham is a great comparison for Orange! Stick with the basic design you have, only small tweaks here and there, many people seeing it will think it‘s kinda cool, but only a handful of die hard fans will actually buy one.
  • 2 2
 But your analogy doesnt make sense at all. A Caterham is a different machine than a Morgan. And this bike is marketed different than both of them. This bike isnt a nostalgic nod to the past or a stripped down bare bones platform for racing. Its none of that. Its out of date, over priced and it sucks that this is what Orange is sticking with. I have been a fanboy of Orange since the first clockwork, but come on, there is nothing new to see here.
  • 5 2
 @noplacelikeloam: There is nothing about an Orange full suspension that "sucks". Maybe the price for some people, but they ride great.
  • 3 1
 @rickybobby18: Pontiac is Diamondback. Defunct, lost to the piles of garbage they once formed from.
  • 2 2
 @zerort: I didn't say they suck. I said it sucks they are still sticking with the same platform and retaining a premium price while other brands are pushing innovation and still able to keep prices at the same price point. Small British brands are well known for innovation. I wish orange could be one of them.
  • 1 0
 @noplacelikeloam: Oh - sorry. I must have misread.
  • 1 0
 Who is lotus?
  • 2 2
 @robokfc: they are the orange of the car world.
I'm not a car guy, but look up the lotus Elise - that's the car equivalent of how oranges ride.
  • 6 2
 I am an Orange rider and a car guy, I think are most like Ariel, both small British companies incrementally improving the same design.
  • 5 1
 @jaame: I have never ridden one but I have ridden single pivot bikes. There's nothing to it, it's just a full suspension bike. Check the geometry, see if it's what you want, it's a contemporary geometry like any other but every bike is different. If you're not making huge jumps and taking really big hits the comparatively reduced progressivity of this design is actually better because the travel is more usable. But if you want more progressivity it's just a matter of adding volume spacers to the shock. What I like in this versus horst link is the simplicity of having less pivots. There are less places to get bearing/pivot play, and the whole rear section being a single piece reduces the rear wheel wobble.
  • 1 0
 @rickybobby18: Just the Aztek
  • 4 3
 *checks flag of the OC to see who's shilling for these outdated and uninspired bikes*

But of course
  • 2 0
 @kroozctrl: infinity. I see what you did there
  • 6 0
 @jaame: I ride a 2011 orange alpine 160. It's a 26 and a heavy awkward f*cker to ride, but it climbs anything and whenever I point it downhill, it makes me smile. I ride with a group of lads with modern high end bikes and I'm no slower than any of them.
Like you I love the fact it was made locally and I'm sure the modern ones will ride a lot better than mine does.
  • 2 2
 @stugrundy: perhaps you have old brakes that don’t work well and therefor send it harder than your lads
  • 2 0
 @lewiscraik: I've seen them, great comparison. Brutally fast with no concessions to comfort or fashion.
  • 5 1
 @FuzzyL: lots of people must be buying them otherwise they wouldn’t exist
  • 1 1
 @freeridejerk888: if you factor in production line, amount of models, and years in the business.

If anything Trek = Chevy and commencal = Honda.
  • 1 5
flag me2menow (Nov 30, 2021 at 12:33) (Below Threshold)
 This is the cringiest thread. Just go with the best performing bike. Unless youre looking for some artisan hardtail or something.
  • 2 0
 @Mntneer: hahah there is a good chance
  • 1 0
 @RayDolor: aren’t most* frames hollow?


* all
  • 3 0
 @rickybobby18:
AHH no, Giants are reliable
  • 5 0
 I respect Orange just for sticking to their guns. Everyone is so obsessed with following the latest trends or gaining popular approval. Orange is saying "f*ck it, this is our way".
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: maybe it was because they had to recall every airbag and brake system .....or was that toyota
  • 3 1
 @Compositepro: Those airbags are in half the cars out there. Toyota just had the b4lls to admit it.
  • 1 0
 @DylanH93: quite the spin for them moving the only pivot on a frame every so many years.
  • 1 0
 @sancho-ramerez: My first car was an 1988 Yugo. Not a bad car at all but not great. Definitely a conversation piece. I wish l still had it.
  • 1 0
 @rickybobby18: everyone is an Aztec
  • 3 1
 Ain’t no way specialized are Porsche. They are like one of the biggest most common brands, and they make low end bikes too. I would compare them more to Ford.
  • 1 0
 @gcavy1:
That's an easy one. Subaru is Surly.
  • 12 0
 @rich-2000: And here in my part of the USA, drivers of the sporty Audi's have replaced the drivers of the sporty BMWs as the douchebags of the daily commute. But the Tesla drivers are in hard competition for the top role.

Well, anyway, whether you ride a Santa Cruz or an Orange, please don't be a douchebag....
  • 1 3
 Would Nukeproof be Alfa Romeo, not reliable.
(They were once good, Bearings go all the time then they snap in my experience as an NP owner)
  • 1 0
 @rickybobby18: I refer to my Ellsworth Rogue as "S-Class" ....
  • 2 1
 @enduroNZ: The reason they have to sell at that price point is that they are selling so very few bikes (at least compared to any other non-boutique brand).
  • 5 0
 @betsie: My 2014 Mega is still going strong. One bearing replacement in that time. Also I have a mate with a 2011 Giulietta, which has suspiciously passed every MOT without any advisories and has never broken down.
  • 1 5
flag betsie (Dec 1, 2021 at 2:51) (Below Threshold)
 @redrook: I have only had a Scalp, Pulse, Mega TR275 (snapped), Mega (still going) so am in no real place to comment.
We have seen a few Megas snap in the same place on the frame v model up here.

I am old and only ride gently!

My poor TR275 only snapped off a wee jump up Greens after a around 2 years of thrashing around Dallas, the Mast, Greens, Torridon, Laggan, Golspie, Balblair, High Burnside Malaga etc.
If you ever ride up here, you will know its all gentle, rolling trails Smile
I would love another rear end to rebuild her up as a woodland small travel thrash machine again.

Only bike I have ever snapped!
  • 1 0
 @rich-2000: yep. Extremely common and they all look the same.
  • 1 2
 @jaame: Hopefully that bloke in his shed is better than the monkeys piecing aluminium at the Orange factory. I think 3 of my mates have had their frames crack along the welds. Their after sales team will happily charge you for the repair though…
Other than that I’m definitely with you. And yes, they’re fast!
  • 1 0
 @brit-100 nice analogy. Presuming you're also a Top Gear fan (OG presenters, of course...)?
  • 1 0
 Why pay that much when I can just pull out my old Iron Horse frame with a single pivot? Way cooler.
  • 1 1
 Airbag wasn’t a Honda made part smart guy@Compositepro:
  • 1 0
 @freeridejerk888: where did i say it was , the point is honda overall product as some else wrote smart guy
  • 5 1
 @betsie: So you've broken one, hardly enough to make generalisations. Saw plenty of Nukeproofs in Ft Bill and Whistler and never saw or heard of a broken frame, but I guess those places don't punish bikes at all Wink

You got unlucky with yours, my TR275 has been great. Sounds like you damaged it somewhere else and the small jump was the final straw.
  • 5 0
 @betsie: My Mega Am survived two seasons in Whistler and several trips to Morzine, as well as regular trips to Fort Bill - which as you know is just a smooth pavement isn't it Smile
  • 1 6
flag betsie (Dec 1, 2021 at 10:50) (Below Threshold)
 @redrook: if you have to heard of a broken NP you haven't been out much.
The weld on the rear stay snapped on my TR275, it's a common failure point on that frame.
Plenty of snapped ones around here. The latest ones seem more reliable.
It was a small jump, probably only 20ft or so out and 6ft down. Lucky it was my first ride back post a massive injury or it could have been much worse if I wasn't just pootling around.
  • 6 1
 @betsie: Ok bud Wink
  • 1 6
flag betsie (Dec 1, 2021 at 10:52) (Below Threshold)
 @redrook: punishing a bike isn't is not about the location. My old 26er V10 has managed 6bseasons racing and many many sub 5.30 practice laps of Fort Bill as well as a good number of races. Fort Bill just takes out wheels! Kills them so badly it hurts the wallet.
  • 1 0
 @BenTheSwabian: Then what would you call Volkswagen which is an Audi without the twinkly headlights, Giant?... and then where does that leave Skoda & Seat!
  • 3 0
 I actually owned a Lotus Exige S with 223 and Missile(?) so this analogy makes sense to me. As I got older I learned to enjoy a VPP which is much more generous with my mistakes hence choice of car also went towards comfort. Orange is indeed a statement. One thing I miss is Orange used to be simple and light = most engaging vs. the heavy M1s, V10s, Glory. Now there's only simple left.
  • 2 0
 @woodyc: if you are the original owner Orange will usually upgrade you to the latest model if your frame breaks in warranty.
  • 1 2
 SCOTT equals Mercedes-Benz. The best overall, wins every podium, first choice of collectors, lasts long, has more money then everyone else, covers every bike segment. Drives great.
  • 1 0
 @8088yl0n: Wins every podium? in what XC? it doesn't win every podium. If we go by historical data, Trek has the most wins (xc, DH, Slopestyle, Rampage, etc). First Choice of Collectors? No, This title goes to Honda, and guess what only Sam Hill and Greg Minaar have that bike, the rest were "misplaced." Has more money than everyone else? No, again this is Giant as they manufacture the majority of the brands on the market.
  • 1 0
 specialized are more of a honda. They have quality bikes, but also a huge range from road to mountain, with budget options as well
  • 77 4
 designed in the UK and the water bottle is mounted directly in line of sheep sh.. coming off the front wheel?
  • 9 3
 That's the Sheep Sh*t/Hypodermic Needle guard mount, the water bottle mounts are under the top tube.
  • 4 0
 If it were where I'm at it would be cow shit flying into your water bottle, but I imagine the principles are the same. I've had one bike with a mound under the down tube. Never again.
  • 6 2
 This is the very first Orange (that I am aware off outside of really old XC rigs maybe) where there is a mount within the front triangle. Only maniacs use those bottle mounts under the downtube.
  • 3 0
 @inside-plus:

Water bottle is under down tube

Accessory mount is under top tube
  • 3 0
 @hellbelly: to fulfil your 'old XC rigs' condition, my 1999 orange mrXC (their first swingarm single-pivot bike like this) has a waterbottle mount under the top-tube
  • 1 0
 @Inertiatic: I imagine you could find some sort of bottle mount that would work there. Plus placing water bottle mounts beneath the top tube has become quit fashionable for UK frame builders.
  • 9 0
 And 467mm chainstays - don‘t you have any corners in the UK?
  • 2 0
 @hellbelly: my Clockwork Evo, and most of the recent hardtails, have the bottle cage mounts in the common location above the down tube.
  • 2 0
 @Inertiatic: I bet you could fit a fidlock bottle mount on the top tube quite easily. Looks to me like there may be e ought space.
  • 1 0
 I would recommend investing in a bottle that has a cover over the spout, to minimise ingestion of sheep shit
  • 1 0
 @FuzzyL: 467 is very long

There is a mullet bike - the switch 6 - very similar to this - which has a 447 chainstay
  • 1 0
 @tom666: Or buy a bike which has the bottle mount in a sensible place.
  • 1 0
 @redrook: Under the top tube utilizing the "accessory mount" with a side entry cage or a Fidlock would probably be fine. As I said before only sick-o's run bottle cages under the down tube.
  • 1 0
 @hellbelly: I 100% agree. It's also just a bit of basic design to improve the hygiene of drinking from a bottle.
  • 48 6
 Pit this against Santa Cruz's closes rival the 5010, full carbon build XT build, carbon rims on Inustry nine hubs, with a much shorter rear end to make it more playful, and only £200 more...

Like many of the UK steel hardtail fabricators, pricing is geting rediculous...
  • 7 0
 Probably why Santa Cruz too many of the ‘what bike will you buy next’ polls.

Still like orange bikes, just not enough to buy one myself.
  • 36 5
 You missed one important point. Where Santa Cruz is building its frames?
  • 5 1
 By this logic, could just as well compare it to a YT Industries bike. BTR does short rear ends if you want playful. And smaller wheels too to make it playful. And only a for a bit more money than the Santa Cruz.
  • 16 4
 @szec: That is important only if it’s actually important to you as the customer - some people don’t care where the frame is made.
  • 5 0
 if i offered you a uk steel frame for 400 quid would you buy it?
  • 22 0
 Orange full build pricing never seem to add up in my mind. A Stage 6 frame is £2400 so £900 or so cheaper than the Santa Cruz equivalent yet the builds are worse specced and more expensive!?! The mind boggles.

I'd happily spec up and put together my own bike with an Orange frame though.
  • 5 1
 @hatchleader: I've thought this exact same thing - I was looking at the full XT groupset and it would have been cheaper for me to simply buy the groupset from CRC and fit it afterwards than choose that build spec from Orange.
  • 14 1
 @hatchleader: Economies of scale - Santa Cruz will buy a huge amount more than Orange and at a price to match.
  • 6 2
 Orange doesn't have the purchasing power as someone like Santa Cruz or Giant so they’re not going to get the same prices from the parts suppliers. Depends what you want. A hand built bike made in the uk is always going to cost more than a generic mass produced bike from China. You’ll ever need to pay more or the same with a worst spec.
  • 3 2
 @thenotoriousmic: To be fair we've been laughing at their full build prices for years. They could easily make them cheaper and sell more at their volumes.
  • 3 2
 Curious about everyone's take on the price. I get why you'd be worried about the weight on an XC whip, but something like this or the Stage 6, I don't think weight really matters all that much (as long as it's within reason.

We all already know that carbon frames can be made pretty cheaply...not junkyard ones, but no name brands that have shown to work well (Trifox, iCan, etc.) Not commenting on the socio-political stuff...just that they can be made cheaply.

You might have other reasons (like suspension preferences, warranty, you like the color, whatever)...I'm not sure cost should be one of them on a bike like this.

So: why should a hand built locally sourced AL frameset be less desirable than it's carbon counterpart?

Flame away!!!
  • 9 2
 @chakaping: no they couldn’t. They’re limited to how many frames they can build, they don’t have a team of Chinese children working for them. They make money of the frames and barely break even on the components selling them on for pretty much what they pay for them.
  • 2 0
 @chakaping: I've said this for years. Back when droppers were new and exciting, and an optional upgrade, they charged you full RRP (external routing back in those days) for the pleasure of fitting a mk1 Reverb for you, and they didn't even throw in the fixed post so you could still ride when the reverb inevitably broke.
  • 1 0
 @smartyiak: it is desire able in America isn't it ??
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: lol youv'e obviously never seen an OEM parts list it more the other way around, on top of that the product part is easy , there's a hundred other things that eat up every aspect of making something in this country from the bog roll in the factory to product arriving to you in a box
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: Orange isn’t far from me, I know a few lads who work there. I’m just paraphrasing what I’ve been told. I’m certainly no expert.
  • 1 0
 @Compositepro: It is amazing how much bog roll people get through if in the same place for 8-10 hrs a day...
  • 2 0
 You got it. This is a alloy, single-pivot frame from a boutique brand with a price tag that makes a Santa Cruz look like a good deal.
  • 1 0
 @justanotherusername: yep they should just start putting phone chargers in the toilets
  • 3 1
 @hatchleader: having recently built up a Stage Evo I would argue that it's worth the premium to avoid the pain of internally routing the cables on these things! Pure misery.
  • 2 1
 Brands should just charge what they feel they need. If they're charging less than they should to make a living, something is wrong. I think a BTR frame now is about twice as expensive as they were when they started out. This is what it was like back then: www.pinkbike.com/news/Documentary-BTR-Fabrications-From-The-Ground-Up.html. They just can't keep going like that. They've got kids (though I think Tam left the company now, so it is just Burf), they're working their ass off, they've invested in better gear and workshop The build queue is still stacked, you'd say the build quality (concerning how much experience he has now) should be perfect. Why would a, by now, established brand lower their prices when demand is this high and they've just got bills to pay? That said, apparently Curtis can make bikes slightly cheaper at this point.

As for the pricing of full builds, I agree that it largely depends on how much they sell. I thought CRC is able to sell their components cheaper than the local bike shop can buy them from the importer (or maybe even from Shimano directly)! So yeah, it may indeed be cheaper to buy the frame and get the components separately. Heck, I'd say most people buying a frame like this already have a bike so they can probably swap most components and only buy new stuff if it happens to be incompatible.
  • 2 0
 it's easy... it's an Orange you like it and you spend the Money or you hate it Wink
  • 4 0
 @vinay: unfortunately charging what you need may mean you don’t sell anything - if demand is there, sure, but business is business.

I imagine running a one man frame building business it is unbelievably hard to make enough money to pull out a wage that reflects the effort and time put in, let alone have enough money left over to keep the business moving forward.

Orange are an entirely different prospect to an operation like BTR though.
  • 1 0
 @RobinAmend: you have a real future when honest marketing becomes a thing
  • 41 3
 467mm chainstays on a bike built for fun? ehhhh???
  • 7 15
flag Ttimer (Nov 30, 2021 at 4:20) (Below Threshold)
 Which are already shorter at sag and shorten further when compressing because of the single-pivot wheelpath.
  • 10 4
 @Ttimer: Thats not how physics work mate.
But i am all for longer chainstays with the trend of longer front centers.It only makes sense.
Its hard to have fun,when the front end starts to push and washout due to poor weight distribution.
Sure,manuals are a bit harder,but still doable.
  • 4 2
 Hey, who said steering a narrowboat isn’t fun?
  • 5 0
 @rich-2000: well it will be fast in astraight line
  • 3 0
 @Ttimer: the rear axle is below the pivot without weight, sag will move it maybe a bit past level (longer than geo chart says)
  • 3 1
 It'd be sicckkk!
  • 2 1
 @metalpsycho: The alleged advantage of a longer chainstay is precisely extra traction at the front, because it moves the weight of the rider from the rear to the front. I'm not very adept of that strategy though, because I think it's still possible to put weight on the front with a shorter chainstay, but it's impossible to apply as much weight at the rear (and consequently, get as much grip) with a longer chainstay. Also don't like the feeling of the BB moving sideways when I turn.
  • 4 0
 @DavidGuerra: It is possible,yes.
But most of it will applied through the hands,wich are weaker than our legs.
In general,a more balanced rear/front centers,allow for a more relaxed stance on the bike,with less arm fatigue.
Obviously,you can go too far,and then you would have ride too far behind the bb,which too,isn't desirable.
  • 5 2
 Is that chainstay length based on some bike design philosophy - or simply what's necessary to stop the tyre hitting the frame with this kind of suspension design and straight seat tube? I suspect the latter...
  • 3 1
 @Linc: Maybe on the first,yes on the second.
  • 3 0
 @Linc: It's not the suspension design, this pivot is actually more further forward than most, generating a slightly more vertical wheel path. It might be the straight seat tube or it's just by choice, and if it is the tube it's by choice as well, they could perfectly have bent it. Straight seat tubes were really great before telescopic seatposts came around, the seatpost could be inserted all the way in.
  • 3 1
 @Linc: not a clearance issue at all.
I have one with a 435mm rear and there's loads of room still.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: I think the forward pivot placement/longer swingarm make an orange single pivot ride much better than other single pivot designs. Longer swingarm/more straight wheel-path. Pedals better, not as much effect from braking force, jumps better.

I’d love to see them do something different in the bb area like making the pivot and bb a single, cool looking forged or machined piece. I kind of dislike the bb dangling look and also how the swingarm pivot is just welded to the downtube. But I like how they’re all about form follows function and there’s probably good reason they’ve kept it as is.
  • 35 0
 Nice to see M is the smallest size. I hate seeing short people on the trail enjoying a nature designed for tall people.
  • 34 2
 Insert generic Orange jokes here:
- Looks like a filing cabinet
- Sounds like a skeleton having a wank in a tin
- 1980s design
- What, no Horst link?
- looks the same as my Five for 1998
- etc
  • 58 0
 not just any tin, a biscuit tin
  • 2 0
 Dead horse?
  • 3 0
 At least the weld quality seems to have improved a bit.
  • 7 8
 @Konyp: still looks terrible, especially on the rear triangle.
  • 6 1
 All are just as true today as they were in 2001
  • 12 0
 - Knock, knock
: Who's there?
- Banana.
: Banana who?
- Knock, knock
: Who's there?
- Banana.
: Banana who?
- Knock, knock
: Who's there?
- Banana.
: Banana who?
- Knock, knock
: Who's there?
- Banana.
: Banana who?
- Knock, knock
: Who's there?
- Orange.
: Orange who?
- Orange you glad people have been making the same bad jokes about how shite your bikes look since 1988?
  • 2 5
 Fuck horst link, this type of design along with most VPP's where the seatstays and chainstays are a single piece offer the best rigidity.
  • 19 1
 The fact that its slightly off-red is a massive slap in the face to red hope component buyers haha
  • 15 0
 They're doing you a favor.
  • 11 1
 The Orange/Hope fanboys will probably go for orange-coloured bits instead. With (non) matching rim decals as well.
So many beautiful Oranges frames marred by horrific component selections.
  • 1 0
 it's for the better. not a fan of matchy matchy bikes.. like matching your bright orange frame to orange spokes and hubs, orange stem and bars with orange decals and orange valve stem caps.. keep it simple.
  • 2 0
 @inside-plus: like i have enough money to buy this off-red slap in the face or hope
  • 3 1
 @chakaping: amazing how many you see on the FB groups for sale. Garish Orange and Santa Cruz bikes with tons of 2015-esque colour matching.
Horrible!
  • 3 1
 Red components on a red frame? Who wants that? Chrome on red looks awesome.
  • 17 2
 Does it climb well? "Define "well"..."

Does it descend well compared to modern bikes from other brands? "Oh, but this has character!"

How about components, are those pretty trick of the price? "How do you feel about middling suspension, 150mm droppers and SLX drivetrain?"

But the price, certainly that is reasonable....? "Look, man. It is what it is and it comes in red."
  • 1 6
flag DavidGuerra (Nov 30, 2021 at 16:50) (Below Threshold)
 Ok now, either I'm totally ignorant of the worse climbing and descending abilities you mention, or you are making a complete fool of yourself by making ignorant and wrong claims.
  • 10 0
 As with all Orange bikes, I'd like it if it was like half the price. There is something to be said about the simplicity and the no-frills approach to design and how Orange just sticks to what they know. But the price is a deal breaker really.
  • 2 0
 Same here. I'm oddly intrigued by them, there's a sort of retromodern appeal, but not enough to justify the price to me.
  • 15 2
 sigh.
  • 15 5
 What do you expect? Orange have been making the same bike for two decades.
  • 7 3
 @redrook: They're the Porche of the MTB world. Same, same but different.
  • 7 2
 @megatryn: porsche ffs
  • 3 2
 @Sethimus: oops. My bad. Still the Porsche of the MTB world.
  • 12 4
 @megatryn: no, lada maybe
  • 14 3
 @redrook: If Orange would make a completely different proposition, it wouldn't be an Orange bike anymore.
I like their integrity, and actually their bikes have become kind of sexy, like an ugly hidden princess that progressively reveals her beauty with age and maturity. Orange are the MILF of mountain bikes Smile
  • 5 0
 @megatryn: Not really, Porsche have all the records. Orange not so much, cool bikes though.
  • 2 0
 @Korbi777: no ways, i love the niva, so cool!
  • 1 0
 @inside-plus: I don't know man. Orange does have some race pedigree after all. Back in the day there were a few races won on Orange. Granted, that was like 20 years ago, but the Orange 222 was one hell of a bike.
  • 2 0
 @BenTheSwabian: That's true, but right now Porsche seems like Santa Cruz
  • 1 0
 @inside-plus: As Porsche, Orange have had the same design forever and look boring AF, but work quite nicely.
  • 14 2
 £6400 (that's $11,000 CAD) for SLX?
  • 17 8
 Alongside the SLX stuff, you're also getting the rest of the bike.
  • 10 0
 @vinay: including budget Stans wheels.
  • 7 0
 @vinay: Its a build kit that would run somewhere in the 5-7k USD range for most other brands. Somehow they are justifying a price that is at least 20% higher than anyone else. Ignoring all the other common Orange tropes about being ugly, old tech etc. this pricing is absolutely outrageous for what you get. And thats saying a lot considering the price increases we have seen on a lot of brands.
  • 4 0
 @wilsonians: Everyone I know buys them frame only. The full build prices have been taking the piss for years.
  • 1 0
 I’m telling you they can’t get anything else, that’s why all the random build specs on these specials
  • 8 0
 i got my first proper ride on a new orange a few weeks back, was genuinely impressed by how good it was through the roots and rocks. id always been a bit of a hater to be honest, but id consider one now for sure
  • 4 0
 @MartyMcfly2810:
Glad to see this! I have always thought Orange looked mighty with the shaping and simplicity after seeing them at world cups in the states years ago. I always had a soft spot in my heart for one but never had any local resources to check one out to buy. Single pivies are a tough beast you really have to have a good shock tune for them to feel right "everywhere" on the trail.
Ever since seeing Peaty and talking to him while drooling on his Orange at Mt. St. Anne in 04 i think..kind of still like to have one.
  • 7 0
 My five evo is an awesome bit of kit love how fun and engaging it is to ride, they truly are different than anything else ive riden, surely thats a good thing? Two bearings is god send when your a father of two young kids, self employed gas engineer and time for bike maintenance is non existence.
  • 2 0
 Put some 29ers on that 5 Evo and let it rip. Only thing I changed was 190x42.5 shock vs 190x45 that comes on it. FAF!
  • 12 1
 467mm Chainstays?
  • 2 1
 I bet it's a super fast bike
  • 6 0
 Apart from the controvers looks wich you may like or not. I think the biggest problem of this bike are the super long chainstays everybody seems to forget about. Size M has Reach = CS Length wich is a bit ridiculous if you ask me. This bike isn´t going to ride the same in M or XL.
  • 1 0
 Das liest sich erst einmal gigantisch groß aber wenn man es erst einmal gefahren ist will man keine kurzen kettenstreben ... ich fahre selbst ein Stage 6 in M bei Körper Größe 175 und im Vergleich zu meinem Vorgänger Meta 29 in L ist das Orange das deutlich ausgewogener und verspielte Rad! Man steht viel zentraler im Rad und muss keine große gewischt Verteilung von vorne nach hinten etc. vornehmen. Und wenn es mal eng wird ist es kein Problem kleiner Impuls und das hinterrad ist entlastet und kann rumgezwirbelt werden.
  • 9 0
 I can’t believe there isn’t a flip chip to change the head angle by 0.1* like all the other bikes out there!!

;-)
  • 5 0
 *grabs pitchfork*

LITERALLY UNRIDEABLE!!!!!!
  • 6 0
 I love me a simple Aluminium frame any day of the week, but as an armchair engineer, I struggle to see how constructing the downtube that way could possibly be better than a tube. From value (time to weld), strength, weight, and even in my opinion aesthetics. Anyone have a compelling reason?!
  • 5 0
 Orange engineer: "This is the way." (insert Mandalorian gif)
  • 3 0
 The folded construction allows them to create a pretty complex shape for the downtube, that would easily be possible with a traditional 'tube' without some serious forming. Forming takes a lot of development and commitment to tooling. The fabricated sheet metal downtube (and the general Orange way of making bikes) is much better suited for this smaller scale manufacture. It enables them to quickly and easily make changes.

That is partly why Orange appear to have a range of very similar but subtley different frames - because they can, with minimum development cost and time.

(Not an armchair) Engineer.

Coming clean - previous Orange owner, got a Stage Evo on order and a little bit of patriotism as they are just on the road. For the sake of all the comparisons on here, its replacing a current gen SC Hightower too!!
  • 3 0
 @snotrag:

Yabbut—— the tube is still a straight run from HT to BB, with very minimal tapering, etc.

Doesn’t look like the extra facets have any functional features incorporated- in fact they’re still using an additional, applied gusset at the best tube junction.

Not convinced!
  • 2 0
 @AckshunW: A round tube is more efficient in compression and the square tube is more efficient in bending if the wall thickness and mass are the same for both. If they’re the same mass/wall thickness, a round tube is actually more torsionally stiff. But it’s not all about torsion and that would be one huge downtube. How would that mate up to the headtube? And gussets help spread out the stress riser created when joining 2 pieces, probably easier to make and weld a square profile than round
  • 2 0
 @AckshunW: Not to mention the complex shape allows them to tailor how the downtube handles different forces coming from either end and the middle. When shape is changed and mass is moved from the center outward it will become resistant to forces on that plane. This is why ovalized tubing resists bending the “long” way more than the short way.
  • 8 0
 How much does it weight?
Let's say that in italian it can be called "putrella".
  • 1 0
 or, alternatively, "cancello in ferro battuto"
  • 9 0
 Internet welders in 3... 2... 1...
  • 6 1
 Too fun not to join in and hopefully hurt somebody's feelings:
Toyota= Specialized. Dependable and kinda boring. Makes the okayest bikes on the market.
Honda= Trek. Used to be dependable, all of their models kinda look the same.
Hyundai = YT. Wish.com version of lexus.
Lexus= Evil. A luxury brand within reach of the upper-middle class.
Kia= Marin. Affordable, some of their products are kind of decent.
Subaru= Yeti. Pretty cool, but being the favorite choice of rich hipsters is wearing out their image.
Acura= Ibis. Entry level luxury with a sporty side.
Mitsubishi= Intense. Was competitive once, not currently enjoying much success.
Jaguar= Schwinn... was a top dog until the early 2000's.
Suzuki= Diamondback, the Release is basically the Samurai of MTB. It's not great but it's surprisingly good for what it is.
Nissan= Giant. Gets a bad reputation from its low end products,but makes some legit high end stuff. Wants to be Toyota
GMC= Kona. Hasn't led the pack in years but has a solid fan base.
Volvo= Scott. Really hit and miss with the innovations and reliability. Your mom has/wants one.
Tesla= Santa Cruz. The brand everyone loves to hate but would probably own one if they could.
Shelby American- Revel. Taking an existing platform (Canfield) and making it beautiful.
Jeep= Commencal. Is capable of way more than most owners will ever use it for.
Pontiac= Transition. if a brand could have a Mullet.... \m/ (>.)
Mini= Grim Doughnut. Wildly impractical but Levey still loves it.
Dodge=Cannondale. Doin their own thing. Sometimes its cool, but mostly it's just weird.
Mazda = GT. Everyone wanted one of these in the 90's.

I know I missed some here. Let me know what they are:
  • 5 0
 Subaru=Yeti is my biggest gripe with this. Subarus dont have the "boutique" vibe that Yeits have.

Based on your Trek description I would almost go with Subaru for them. Every Subaru looks like a stretched and scaled version of their other cars
  • 1 0
 Anyone labeling Specialized as "okayest" hasn't actually ridden the current Enduro. Whew. That's your Tesla. Lots and lots of mid-grade models out there, but the stealthy performance models will outshine a Buggati.
  • 1 0
 @KJP1230: He labelled Toyotas as okay too, such a travesty.
  • 4 0
 I used to like the heavy industrial look of Orange bikes. Big fat welds. but something is different about their newer ones. I think its just the sheer number of welding seems all over the frame that reminds me of stiching. The frame kind of looks like a welded chucky doll that might split apart at any moment. Still a cool looking bike IMO, nice color too.
  • 2 0
 Looks like its been chopped dropped and sectioned. It's got 70's hot rod metalflake paint too.
  • 4 0
 Am I the only one who finds Orange's current naming scheme to be really confusing? The Stage 6 Evo has less travel than the Stage 6, but more travel than the Stage Evo. It also does not have 6 inches of travel, nor does the Alpine 6, which again has more travel than it's Evo counterpart. And then they also have a whole bunch of hardtails, in Evo and non-Evo variants, which appear to all be built for basically the same niche?
  • 5 1
 It's almost as if Orange have no bulk buying power in their procurement team. Let's build a bike, add the RRP price of the components, add another 10% mark up and sell to the customer.
  • 3 0
 I like that these are a little different. I like that they’ve refined their platform for a lot of years.

Price is still too high. Blah blah blah UK manufacturing. Make a good Asian version of this, sell the UK frames as works models and offer some customization (reach, chainstay length, headtube length, color, bosses).

Until then, Commencal is the hot ticket for sturdy aluminum full suspension bikes.
  • 1 0
 The construction process is so unique to Orange and the frames are so complex - basically all folded aluminium - I wonder if an Asia-produced version would be possible?
I would love to buy a Taiwanese Orange frame for the price of a Commencal, but none of the factories would be tooled to make them AFAIK.
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: Asia is where almost all the bikes are built. You can get anything you want built there to spec. Yeti, Santa Cruz, Transition-just about every “boutique” brand has their bikes built in that part of the world.

And it would trim a lot off the price of Orange bikes to be built there.

Somehow GG does affordable(ish) US carbon frames, but Orange can’t seem to be bothered looking for ways to keep their cost competitive.
  • 1 0
 @wyorider: mate, the frames are competitive. They are just greedy with the full build prices.
Have you looked up how they are made? It's not like any other bike brand.
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: Monocoque made from clamshell halves. This could be done well for less elsewhere.

I get they’re unique. I get they’re well built. But so is a US made Guerilla Gravity. And those are carbon.
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: to be fair their production method is because of the fact they have a shitload of bin making gear next production line down , the overseas mob would cut a tool and blow aluminium up or press it into shape....i remeber when kinesis did the mountain cycle frames pretty much what happened
  • 6 2
 I don't want one. But I would rather this than a Santa cruz or a specialised, giant, gt etc etc. At least it's different and Interesting.
  • 3 1
 What exactly is the innovation here that counterbalances the price tag? I admit Orange has a fancy and desirable brand (I wouldn't mind owning their bike)... but how is the new bike different/improved from the previous version? Perhaps I can simply answer this question to myself: the market is hungry for new bikes, supply is scarce, and Orange knows exactly which moves to make. It's just business and there's nothing to complain about, really.
  • 3 0
 You used the terms "fancy" and "desirable" to describe Orange.

This is a no-linkage single pivot, with the same basic design/layout as their bikes from 20 years ago. The price is $8.5k USD for an SLX drivetrain, base level wheels, and Ohlins suspension. I don't know if desirable or fancy are terms that readily apply Smile
  • 3 3
 I don't care about innovation, I care about what works. Many great bikes have stopped production just so that something new could be released to satisfy the market's consumption-driven delusion of newer=better. The fact is that there has been plenty of time to come up with a good suspension design, and this is one of them. With a few geometry adjustments and a few tweaks, we have a top performing contemporary bike. The motor world overwhelmingly uses this design, this doesn't mean innovation stopped, they are just tweaking what needs to be tweaked with the same basic proven design.
  • 3 1
 @DavidGuerra: We get it. You have an Orange. No amount of kinematic diagrams, swoopy carbon shapes, better build kits/components, or innovation is going to convince you that you need anything more than two hunks of metal, joined by a shock and a pivot.

I'm glad you love your bike. Shred on!
  • 1 5
flag DavidGuerra (Dec 1, 2021 at 1:57) (Below Threshold)
 @KJP1230: I don't, but I have always wanted one. And the amount of bullshit I see on the comments about Orange bikes is cringeworthy. This is indeed a good design, but, hum, I realize this now, it's mostly americans vs. the british, defending their flexy four-bar bikes. I concede that there might be one or another four-bar bike that isn't shit, but I have always had the realization that having a rear section in which the seatstays and the chainstays are connected is the way to have a solid rear end. But these dumb-ass american kids don't seem to get it, and talk crap about Orange bikes while riding their 4-bar single pivots, which offer exactly the same pedalling performance while just adding extra flex points at the rear.
  • 1 3
 @KJP1230: "two hunks of metal, joined by a shock and a pivot" - Sounds bloody lovely! And if you think anything else is clearly superior for any MTB application and use, except perhaps "two hunks of carbon composite, joined together by a shock and a pivot", you're quite ignorant of the structural and performance requirements of mountain bikes.
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: Also, your defense of "innovation" is in favour of what? The completely ubiquitous 4-bar design? Is that what you call innovation, hahaha? What nowadays can utterly be called the "cookie stamp" bike??
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: You're seriously going to argue that VPP, DW Link, DELTA, various high pivot designs, 4-bar horst, 6-link horst, variable pivot point (see Yeti, Alchemy) hell...even a linkage backed single pivot offer nothing?

All of these designs offer decidedly more "degrees of freedom" and opportunity to engineer very specific attributes related to anti-squat, brake jack, wheel path, variable leverage ratios, etc. And winning bikes seem to select this complexity. They just do. Are they more complex than a simple lever single pivot? Yup. Big time. But that complexity does deliver ever-improving performance, beyond what geometry updates can deliver.

Case in point: Look at the current 2020 Specialized Enduro. At it's core, its a 4-bar horst, but the actual suspension kinematics and wheel path are fine tuned by a complex shock linkage that actually drives the rocker link. As a result, its been a "benchmark" bike for 2+ years for at least 4 major mountain bike periodicals. Its a super slack, 170mm bike that is better downhill than many DH bikes from 5-7 years ago, and better climbing dynamics than many 140-150mm trail bikes from 5 years ago. Is it complex? Yep. But is it better, year over year than even Enduro's of years past? Absolutely - big time.

Same with some of these fancy, new, high-pivots. Man, I just rode my buddies Fordbidden Dreadnaught a few weeks ago. The thing is a MONSTER. The wheel stays glued to the ground on super gnarly trails, unlike anything I've ever felt. This Orange will never be able to offer that ride dynamic. Not possible.

So yes, there is a great deal to be gained from increasing complexity and/or innovation. As for flex, get your head out of your a$$. Firstly, a certain amount of flex or compliance can be a good thing. Ever ridden super rigid carbon hoops? 2nd, unless you are a world-caliber racer, I don't wanna hear it. I see a lot of local professional racers who seem to shred their "flexy" four-bar and other design types.
  • 1 2
 @KJP1230: "You're seriously going to argue that VPP, DW Link, DELTA, various high pivot designs, 4-bar horst, 6-link horst, variable pivot point (see Yeti, Alchemy) hell...even a linkage backed single pivot offer nothing?"
No, that's not what I'm saying. They do offer something, but I dispute your claim that they are superior. They aren't. Mountain bikes are all about trade-offs. I don't expect an Orange to have the downhill performance of an high pivot bike, but there is a weight and drag penalty trade-off. VPP (overall, including other names you mentioned which I consider VPP as well) and linkage backed (meaning shock linkage, not seatstays linkage) single pivot bikes are good bikes, but there really isn't an established superiority over a well executed non-linkage single pivot bike. A rear wheel pivot always has to be somewhere, whether it's virtual or physical. Yes, ideally there would be a linkage in here, connecting the rear swingarm to the shock as on an Evil bike, but it's not really crucial, it's just a matter of progressivity and progressivity involves a trade-off as well, the more progressivity you have the less usable your travel is. Besides, progressivity is tunable through the shock as well. So the only aspect that I concede to be a relative weakness in this bike, the lack of progressivity, may not be a weakness at all. It can actually be considered a weight-saving measure that does not have an adverse affect on performance. Hence I absolutely dispute your labeling this bike as inferior to anything.
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: I do very much appreciate a rear wheel that does not wooble all over the place. Some people do like that, that's fine. I just rode a Pro-Flex 855 whose rear end feels like a strand of spaghetti and I did enjoy riding that thing, but it's more for the challenge, not at all for going fast.
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: I will add something else. This might defeat all of my points, but I don't care. The fact is that I don't want or need "too much bike". I rode all competition-worthy trails in my country and I never felt that a lack of suspension performance was holding me back. I mostly care about the tires, I'm obsessed with tires, that's how you interact with the terrain, with every knob of them. A long time ago, when I could not afford a bike with front or rear suspension, I learned to be the suspension myself. I probably still carry that. I don't find that the most challenging trails are "solvable" through suspension performance. I just need the bike/wheels/tires/components not to break.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: Then we need to respectfully disagree.

I feel strongly that a bike with (somewhat) independently tunable axle path, pedal kickback, variable leverage ratio (linear vs. progressive during different parts of the suspension curve), brake jack, anti-squat, anti-rise, dynamic chainstay length, etc. is going to provide a basis on which objectively "superior" suspension performance is delivered for any given application. No bike will ever be a 10/10 in each category, but design and innovation allows us to inch closer and closer.

Orange is not going to excel across several of these domains. Specifically: axle path, pedal kickback, variable/dynamic leverage ratio, brake jack and dynamic chainstay length. Because of Orange's ultra-simple suspension design, these particular aspects are either entirely or partially unavailable to engineer without major tradeoff.
  • 1 1
 “Orange is not going to excel across several of these domains. Specifically: axle path, pedal kickback, variable/dynamic leverage ratio, brake jack and dynamic chainstay length. Because of Orange's ultra-simple suspension design, these particular aspects are either entirely or partially unavailable to engineer without major tradeoff."
That’s wrong on several points. Pedal kickback depends on the position of the pivot. Axle path (obviously) depends on the position of the pivot. Anti-squat depends on the position of the pivot. These are choices that have to be made regardless of the suspension system, and that always involve a trade-off. And what here is a physical pivot, in non-single pivot bikes is a virtual pivot, but the choices are the same and the trade-offs are the same. The single pivot bike simply offers a visual, immediate representation of these options, which is the physical location of the pivot. Other systems can’t escape from this, they still must provide a virtual pivot point that is in the same place that a physical pivot point would be on a single pivot bike. It’s the same thing. And that determines everything, the trade-off between anti-squat and pedal kickback for instance, I mean, it’s not a trade-off because one is associated with the other, if you get more anti-squat you get more pedal kickback. No matter the suspension system, it’s a choice and a trade-off, depending on where you make the wheel rotate around. Then, the leverage ratio, I addressed it already, the dynamic chainstay length, I don’t know what you mean (do you?), and the brake jack is indeed one the things that can be considered a drawback in this bike, but it's also slight and very possibly unnoticeable. One solution is, don't brake. But it's mostly on very vertical trails where you have to be hanging on the brakes a lot that this might show itself more, and I probably wouldn't be buying this bike if I was going to be riding a lot of such trails. Such trails are also a waste of pedal power, too much braking, and would be considered downhill trails, and this isn’t a downhill bike. Though Orange didn’t do bad at all in DH in the hands of Steve Peat.
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: Also, the chainring size determines all the major factors in the performance of the suspension, because it determines where the chain line is placed in relation to the virtual or physical pivot. The whole pedalling characteristics of the bike are that. The bike might have been thought for a particular chainring size, but if you install a larger one, you get less anti-squat and less pedal kickback, and vice-versa with a smaller chainring. I know there are other factors, but this is actually the most important for me, and a single pivot bike actually allows you to see visually where this pivot is and where you want the chainline to be to get the amount of anti-squat that you want (I primarily want a good anti-squat because pedal kickback doesn't bother me nearly as much as pedal bobbing).
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: And you are hating on the Orange here, but the bike that "all bikes look like" (Trek Session) is a single pivot just like this one, and its pedalling and drivetrain-related characteristics are directly and exclusively related to the location of the main pivot, just like this one. Yet I haven't seen you ranting against its lack of "innovation" or optimization ability. Oh, and it does suffer from brake jack as well, the majority of bikes do, just a little less than single pivots with no seatstay linkages like Oranges.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: You're missing the point. More complex suspension designs allow engineers to fine tune those various aspects of suspension performance somewhat independently. The "somewhat independently" is the important piece.

Let's use your own example: Pivot location. As you've said, axle path, pedal feedback, anti-squat, leverage ratio are going to be highly dependent on pivot location. With this bike design, you get 1 pivot location and zero additional degrees of freedom between the pivot, bottom bracket, and rear axle. So now you have to pick a location, and that location is going to be a tradeoff between axle path, pedal feedback, anti-squat, and levaerage rate. With other bike designs, you have MORE ability to independently optimize each.

Case in point (again): the 2020 Specialized Enduro with its very complicated "6-bar" suspension. At its core, it is a horst link bike. Yet the axle position, independent chainstay and seat stay, as well as the complex linkage and rocker link allows you to engineer a bike that has a rearward axle path for the first 30% of suspension travel (lengthening the effective chainstay, and moving the axle "back and out of the way") that then switches to a forward axle path (shortening the effective chainstay and reducing pedal kickback) for the final 70% of suspension travel. Further, by fine tuning the 3-arms which link the shock to the rocker link, it delivers a suspension curve that switches between linear and progressive at different parts of the stroke. Brake jack is reduced by decoupling (somewhat) the axle position and brake mount from the movement of the chainstay and rocker link, which allows the bike to remain more reactive under braking.

Do you see what I mean? The Orange cannot offer this level of sophistication and fine tuning. You effectively get to make 1 choice with the Orange: Where is the pivot, and where is the axle? Everything else is a function of where you mounted the shock to the lever arm. That's it.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: One last point: Pivot location is not fixed in man bike designs: Norco's new Range (VPP high pivot), DW-Link, Revel, Yeti, Alchemy....they all have suspension with pivot locations that move during, and as part of, suspension travel. Again: this allows for "somewhat independent" engineering of different aspects of the suspension.
  • 2 2
 @DavidGuerra: “(Trek Session) is a single pivot just like this one”

Thanks for the insight. I’m headed out to the garage to weld the ABP and the rocker link solid. What a waste of bearings.
  • 2 1
 @reed81: Yes, it is considered a single pivot because there are no pivots between the main pivot and the rear wheel. The wheel path is determined by a single pivot.
  • 2 0
 @DavidGuerra:
Right, in simplest terms it is a single pivot as well. The ABP and Linkage driven shock make them totally different.
  • 2 1
 @reed81: No, that just influences the progressivity, and the braking to a small degree. Basically just the suspension characteristics. Does not influence anything that has to do with the transmission such as anti-squat, pedal feedback etc. So in that respect it's a single pivot like any other. Also regarding wheel path, obviously.
  • 2 1
 @reed81: By "single pivot like any other" I don't mean it depreciatively, and every single pivot is also different depending on pivot location, rigidity of the rear section (very important for power transmission, among other things), etc.
  • 1 1
 @KJP1230: Except for the shock actuating mechanism, the 2020 is no more and no less than an horst link bike. This makes it a VPP (as in Virtual Pivot Point) because the concentric point of the wheel's path does not correspond to an actual physical pivot. Now, I would like to address wheel paths and their concentric points. The question is, where do you want this concentric point to be? My answer to that is on some point along the chainline, not too much to the front of the bike and not too much to the back, in fact precisely over the point where the chain enters the chainring, because that's the chain's pivot point as the wheel rotates. But it can be a little forward, for a more vertical wheel path and extra clearance, and a little above the chainring, for a certain amount of anti-squat. That is the concentric point that I want for the wheel's path, no other. I don't want a moving pivot or a floating pivot. I want precisely that pivot point. With a single pivot bike, all it takes is placing the main pivot precisely there. With a VPP bike (in the sense I mentioned) I want the concentric point of the wheel's rotation to be precisely there as well. So no, I really don't want any of the tweaks you mention. If a virtual or physical pivot point strays too much from the point where the chain pivots on the chainring, there will be bad effects on the transmission.
  • 1 0
 @reed81: At some point, I think David Guerra needs to admit that he is interested in an all-out defense of Orange's suspension design. As you and I have illustrated in conversation regarding competing single-pivot and other suspension designs, the increasing complexity of the rear suspension allows for additional engineering of various aspects of the suspension kinematics and attributes. None of this means that Orange bikes are "bad" per se, but Orange IS constrained by their chosen design as compared to all other available options. That's just a flat out fact.

At this point, there is really nothing left to say. He ended is last message by talking about "flex" again, as if modern bike designers haven't accounted for flex as part of their suspension engineering process. Smile
  • 2 1
 @KJP1230: This is silly, really. Theories fail, they always have, I've been seeing them fail for decades. MTB marketing subsists on the idea of innovation, dressed in all kinds of acronyms. Let the riding speak for itself, that's the ultimate test, and no couch arguing will contradict that. I've only seen favourable reviews of Orange bikes throughout the years, there are none here, being a US site probably doesn't help, but enlightnment will hopefully hit you one day. Cheers!
  • 2 0
 I have always liked Orange bikes, but their reluctance to adapt on certain levels is turning away a lot of customers. No bottle mounts on the top of the down tube is a killer for me these days. I know people will say that Specialized is over touted in the bike world but their SWAT storage and capability to run a bigger bottle make them stay at the top of my list. With all that being said, good on Orange for sticking to their design ethos but I also think they could gain customer base if they adapted a bit. Maybe they don't want a larger customer base, but this customer wishes they would consider some changes.
  • 3 1
 Having only seen one Orange in the flesh,a very recent version of the 5, I thought it was absolutely stunning,finish was excellent and although only I got to take it for a spin around the carpark I loved the feel of it,had one of those "this just fits perfectly" kind if feel to it, unfortunately didn't get to try it out on the trails though.
How about an instant downvote for the usual "gate" comments Orange get and commend them for giving riders an option other that the usual offered by the big brands!
  • 2 0
 Man that thing looks the shiz I’ve never been crazy about the way they look but that color and paint job looks pretty dope. I’ll bet that sucker rips like nobody’s business too!! Any time You see somebody riding on an Orange frame they allways look fun as sh%10-4t to ride somehow. They must be pretty snappy and playful
  • 2 0
 That's exactly how they feel
  • 2 0
 Awesome! This refined first world built, likely durable/reliable machine is WAY better than most of the carbon junk out there. Rather have something refined than something ‘new’ from one of the big carbon marketing first companies that will most likely need to be warrantied if you actually ride hard.
  • 5 0
 I wouldn't buy it because I'm not a single-pivot lover but I like it!
  • 2 0
 Single pivot without links...
  • 3 1
 Pretty sure it has a pivot on both sides. Does that help?
  • 1 0
 @vinay: you wrong only one side to save weight!
  • 3 0
 6400 GBP? Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
  • 2 1
 Well, I'm glad Orange has started putting 210mm shocks on their new designs at least. The shock is still 190mm on the Five Evo, which is totally suboptimal. It's not like they're using the room in the front triangle for a bottle cage.
  • 5 0
 ...and still using tab rear brake mounts. Really?
  • 1 0
 Why not? Lots of brands use them and I doubt for instance Cotic can even move away from them with their current suspension design.
  • 5 1
 I'm confident enough in my sexuality to admit that I like the look of an Orange, and I know I'm not alone in that.
  • 4 0
 absolutely gigantic bike. almost 1,300 mm in medium? what is going on with these people?
  • 2 0
 Everything else aside i think it would be super sick to be able to ride a bike with an equal cs to reach number, super well balanced and my hands wouldnt hurt all the time, too bad im tall
  • 1 0
 Get it through your thick skulls: reach and stack are complimentary. Your bike does not magically become smaller if you add headset spacers. Sure, your reach technically gets smaller, but your stack INCREASES.

Reach decreases, stack increases = same size bike.
  • 3 0
 Are the chainstays really 467mm or is that a misprint?

If yes, then damn son, the door will definitely be closing while you wheel that sucker out of the garage!
  • 1 0
 I have an Orange Switch 6 and a Whyte G170. The reason I got the Switch was to reduce the Chainstay compared to the Stage 6. The Switch rides much better with a coil and the difference is noticeable over an air can, the Whyte is good with both and you have to ride it back to back with coil/air to notice the difference. Both single pivot and Horst link feel really good.
Now the important bit.
The Orange Switch (MX) has 145mm and 447mm CS (210/55) SA 76.
The Stage 6 has 150mm and 469mm CS (210/55) (same front triangle as the Switch) SA 76.
Stage 6 Evo has 140mm and 467mm CS (210/55) SA76.
The Alpine 6 has 165mm and 441mm CS (230/65) but the seat angle is 72/74 deg.

The Switch/Stage/Evo have straight seat tubes, the Alpine doesn't. I think Orange have run out of space to fit a bigger shock or get a modern seat angle (edit-they could get the seat angle by starting the seat tube say 5mm behind the BB and running it through the point where it meets the top of the CS). They can't increase the travel without increasing the CS and shortening the stroke. There going to have to change something if they want their Enduro bikes to keep up and I don't think people are going to accept the solution on the 329 (hole in the downtube/slack seat angle) to get the big travel on an Enduro.
  • 1 0
 Which air and coil shocks were you riding on the Switch? I have the original Stage 6 and there's not much to choose between the Float X2 and EXT Storia - with the latter just having a bit of an edge in some situations (as you'd bloody hope).
The last part of your comment is very interesting, they are obviously missing a long-travel 29er now and the Stage 6 could always have done with a bit more.
  • 1 0
 @chakaping: was using a DPX2 and now on a Super Delux coil so that might have had more to do with it. The Switch never happy with the DPX2. Says something that they only offer it on the base spec.
Concure ref Stage 6 always needing a bit more travel.
  • 1 0
 Owned four Oranges over a 9 year period before switching to Transition in February 2020 and still have a soft spot for the brand. My first Five really cemented my obsession for mountain biking and while the looks of the Orange range aren’t for everyone, the bikes are a lot of fun to ride, although you definitely pay a premium for the frames being hand built in the UK.
  • 1 0
 Yeti= Porsche; unique engineering solutions, boutique prices, rich racing heritage that the respective marketing teams heavily leverage to sell products to white male dentists having mid-life crisis. Orange and blue (turquoise), aka “Gulf” color schemes.
Both take themselves very seriously.

Trek=Ford; massive number of total units sold annually, most pretty standard run of the mill stuff. Occasionally pulls out all the stops to make something insane (ford GT, super lite)

Specialized=Chevy; also ginormous and also sells lots on “non-enthusiasts” models. Creates some insane performances bargains from time to time.

Scott= Audi, Unnecessarily complex engineering solutions to problems nobody had. High price, euro vibes.

Transition=Mazda. Smaller company that makes fun to drive/ride products at reasonable prices. Pushing to go more “upmarket” but still not too serious about it.
  • 1 0
 That geo is out of control. 467 rear center? 468 medium with a 76 and 64??? So much front traction that I will be near impossible to get the front off the ground when needed.

Maybe the trails near their HQ are straight, fast, and boring.
  • 4 4
 Having raced a 224 (hated it) and demo'd a 5 and patriot (both not nice and didn't fair well in technical climbing or descending test).

This looks nice. Maybe it's because the colour reminds me of my old VPFree. Maybe because it's Billy basic. Maybe because the team riders have been shredding them well and putting in some good results.

But... I watched the video of how orange frames are made and that is enough to put anyone off forever!
  • 5 1
 and it's still kinda ugly...
  • 1 0
 I have a good respect on all the Bike compony that don't sell out. They stay on there color. Orange. Canfield and Knolly still not making a E-bike. Prop for them to be deferent.
  • 2 0
 They do make Ebikes BTW.
  • 2 0
 @nrpuk: they do?! I like the idea to build a E-bike with a smaller motor and battery just for a assistance but not those crazy 700 watts or more power. I have a friend I used to ride a lot that is very strong and then bought a E-bike and when we ride together he doesn't use it, he get really tired fast even he said he ride on his E- bike 20 to 30miles every other day and now He's so weak now.
  • 2 0
 @Tumal1: I’m trying to avoid buying an Ebike for the same reason. I think I’d lose fitness too!
  • 2 0
 @nrpuk: I know of only 1 person personally that can ride ebikes and regular bikes and hasn't gone backwards in fitness. I also personally know 4 other people who got ebikes, and are no longer able or willing to ride regular bikes. 3 of those 4 sold all their regular bikes, the one holdout says he's making a comeback after the winter.
  • 4 0
 I don't even care about the description, that bike is sexy as hell!
  • 4 0
 I prefer my shocks to be less of a structural component of the frame.
  • 1 0
 I'm too old to not be honest with opinion, but slot that bike in the HC (Hideous creature) column.

I would not own this machine, but welcome its presence in the market to give consumers more options and foster competition.
  • 1 0
 I recently bought Five Evo. I switched from Propain Tyee and it's a lot of fun. The cornering in particular is great and feels better than any other bike I've ridden. My only complaint is the bottle position.
  • 2 0
 Agreed, basically they can’t get hold of anything higher spec is my guess
  • 2 1
 Prices have risen in the land of Stain (hx4) since ownership change .Still ideal for the UKs Slopfest and cracking good frames. but at a cost.
  • 9 1
 Careful with the cracking good frames comment, the bike may hear you and oblige
  • 4 0
 @Corkster9: *laughs in split headtube*
  • 2 0
 @Corkster9: Who doesnt love a double entendre
  • 3 0
 All jokes aside, that is a beautiful colour!
  • 1 0
 But it's not orange
  • 2 1
 Why does the evo version have less travel? Surely the Evo version should be more aggressive and more travel like the stumpjumper
  • 2 0
 Or even Orange’s own Clockwork Evo, which has more travel than the Clockwork.
  • 4 0
 expensive ridable hinge
  • 2 0
 I’m mean I’m cool if you want to change your suspension design, we won’t judge you at all….it’s been a good run
  • 1 0
 Love the colour and would love a go on the bike as I think it would be bloody good but no bottle mount within the triangle is a big no from me.
  • 3 0
 "first look"
  • 5 4
 Never had any desire to have an Orange. Thought they looked out of date in 2008 let alone now.
  • 2 3
 6400 quid. Buy a crosser for that. It's Almost grim donutite. at least thay put another triangle in the design. Iv just brought a genesis latitude for 300 quid yay. Just thought I'd say...
  • 3 3
 Without looking at the bike or the spec sheet I'm guessing Looks the same as an orange from 5 years ago Expensive piss poor components for the price
  • 3 3
 Anyone complaining about the "looks" of an Orange, have you all looked in the mirror lately. Not much to be proud of there for about 99% of you.
  • 3 0
 Too orangey for crows!
  • 3 0
 I’ll be your dog!
  • 1 0
 Only one pivot to service and that paint color…my next bike might be an Orange.
  • 2 2
 In one sentence "no fuss" is followed by "Shimano SLX." That derailleur is full of fuss. Shimano's low end to mid range derailleurs are garbage.
  • 4 5
 At some point I'd like to try riding an Orange just to see how bad a single pivot really feels compared to all of the fancy suspension designs I've grown familiar with.
  • 10 2
 Or how good it really feels.
No point in starting out with negative bias.
They’re actually pretty nice to ride (or at least the older ones were). Not ridden a new Orange in several years.
  • 5 1
 You probably couldn’t tell any difference!!
  • 7 1
 I know someone who had an Orange and thought the simple single pivot was great and it climbed great too. Then he bought a properly engineered bike and realised the Orange actually sucked. Someone else I know cracked 3 rear triangles on his Orange.
  • 6 1
 The stage Evo is very good. Good enough that I'm replacing my 2021 tallboy with one.
  • 2 1
 @MikeW75: Yep, know 3 or 4 riders who had the same experiences. I borrowed one of their bikes and spent the first climb thinking that something was loose or broken because of how flexy the back end of the bike was.

That combined with how many break, and the amount of bearings they seemed to go through, means that I'd never consider one.
  • 2 1
 Look at how many brands are moving to single pivot designs. Why is that? 1x drivetrains and modern suspension has made them relevant again.
  • 2 0
 Looks red to me.
  • 5 4
 it looks like a 2000's Mongoose from K-Mart only with better parts...
  • 1 0
 How much?? Moving on thanks.
  • 2 0
 Looks like a.... Orange
  • 1 0
 $11k Canadian for that? Hard pass
  • 1 1
 Santa Cruz in Nissan, part of a huge conglomerate of other brands. Makes OK bikes but nothing to write home about.
  • 1 0
 ..........so, it's a new Stage 5 then?
  • 1 0
 love the high stays, mud clearance ah plenty.
  • 1 0
 LOOKS LIKE AN ORANGE that is a big compliment
  • 1 0
 then go and buy some cheep shiiitake
  • 1 0
 Underwhelmed
  • 2 1
 Good enough for peaty
  • 2 0
 …in 2005
  • 1 0
 My next bike.
  • 1 1
 Pinkorange bike.
  • 1 3
 no superboost? not enogugh modern!

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