First Look: SRAM Guide Trail Brakes – Power, Precision and Control

Mar 25, 2014
by Richard Cunningham  
SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014
  SRAM's new Guide brake was named to pay homage to the trail guides who tirelessly ushered the design team around the back country and in doing so, became the program's key test riders as well.


SRAM has developed an all-new braking system that handily addresses the minor deficiencies of its Avid XO and XX1-level trail brakes. The brake platform is called “Guide” and it will be a SRAM-branded product that is intended specifically to serve elite-level all-mountain and trail riders. The new brake is the end product of an intensive, three-year development program that began with a series of test sessions where SRAM’s engineers and selected riders evaluated top performing models from major component makers. Based upon information gathered from the trail sessions, SRAM then outlined the performance goals it wanted to hit with its new braking platform: quicker action, more precise engagement control, and independent adjustments for lever-reach, pad contact and engagement – and then developed three different prototypes to explore the best mechanical option to achieve those goals. The result was a distinctly different lever design, a new rotor configuration, and a familiar, four-piston caliper. We were invited to ride-test the SRAM’s Guide Trail Brake in Moab, Utah, on some of the same terrain where those first product evaluations took place – and it seems that the Guide team has met or exceeded their expectations.


Details:

• Purpose: AM/Trail
• Contact point adjust
• Tool-free reach adjust
• MatchMaker X compatible
• Lever pivots on ball bearings
• 4-piston Guide caliper
• New Centerline rotor
• Colors: polished silver anodize or black anodize
• Weight: 375 grams (front system, 160mm rotor)
• MSRP: $199 / €177 per side



Inside SRAM's Guide RSC Trail Brake

SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014
  SRAM's Guide brakes use a shorter two-finger lever and a piggyback-type reservoir. Lever reach, engagement and pad contact are independently adjustable.


Guide Lever

From the outside, the Guide brake lever’s in-line master cylinder and reservoir looks much different than its predecessors, with a larger reservoir, a shorter, forged-aluminum lever blade and a forward-pointing reach-adjustment dial. From tip to tip, the Guide lever is the same overall length as the present trail brakes, but with additional clearance made for GripShift levers at the outboard end and a larger volume for fluid in a piggyback reservoir. The lever-reach dial has been moved from below the lever blade, where it interfered with twist-shifters and some lock-on grips, and placed facing inward up top. SRAM uncoupled the Guide’s lever-reach and free-stroke (engagement point) adjustments so Guide owners can quickly fine tune their brakes. Like all SRAM brakes, Guide levers are Matchmaker compatible and ambidextrous, so users can switch sides without bleeding hoses. SRAM did not give us the individual weight of the lever assembly, but the total system weight for a charged brake: lever, caliper, and 160mm rotor is 375 grams, with a $199 USD MSRP. Colors are polished or gloss black

SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014
  This cut-away lever shows the swing link with its hardened-steel roller near the center of the image, the lever-driven cam is contacting the roller and is just peeping out of the cut-away from the right of the photo.

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New Master Cylinder

In the search for an extremely precise and repeatable engagement feel, SRAM abandoned the simpler TaperBore master cylinder of its Avid Elixir brakes in favor of the sliding cup-seal and port system that most hydraulic types employ. Because the cup-type piston must travel a measured distance before it closes off the bleed port and begins to actuate the caliper, a “dead band” is created that causes unwanted play in the brake lever’s travel. SRAM’s designers solved this with a cam-driven swing link which moves the master cylinder piston quickly past the reservoir’s bleed port so the brakes will begin to actuate at the moment the lever is squeezed. The swing link is designed to quickly drive the brake pads to the rotor, after which, the lever-mounted cam is profiled to ensure that when the rider squeezes the lever, the clamping force at the caliper becomes linear and easy to modulate.

SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014
  Another view of the Guide lever shows the molded butyl rubber membrane above the master cylinder and piston. Notice that the bleed ports above the piston assembly are protected from air bubbles by a raised tower when the lever is inverted.


Inside the Reservoir

SRAM officials stated that there are always one or two bubbles left inside a well bled braking system that normally do not affect braking performance because they migrate into the brake lever’s reservoir. Often, especially when the bicycle is inverted, a bubble can find its way through the open port inside the reservoir and migrate into the brake hose, causing the lever to feel spongy. Multiple applications of the brake lever will force small air bubbles back into the reservoir – most of the time - but SRAM wanted to eliminate the problem altogether.

More fluid volume was added to the reservoir to ensure that there would be ample reserves to compensate for 100-percent pad wear, and SRAM engineers also designed a short tower around the bleed ports in the master cylinder reservoir to guide any trapped air away from their openings, should the bike be flipped up-side down. Clever enough, but to ensure less bubble formation and more consistent braking feel, the brains there designed a more flexible butyl separator-membrane in the reservoir cap. The pull of the stiffer plastic membrane, say the scientists at SRAM, can draw molecules of air through the membrane over time and also affect how crisply the lever returns.

SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014
  SRAM's new rotor has double the number of spokes and a new profile - all intended to keep the braking track straight when it is red hot. The "Centerline" name is derived from the elongated mud-clearning slots in the center of the braking track.


New Rotor

Guide Brakes also feature a new rotor design called “Centerline” which refers to a series of elongated vents in the center of the braking track, as well as a new 12-spoke configuration (up from six spokes) that is intended to allow for more precise expansion and contraction of the disc as it is heated. The revisions are reported to control warping and lateral distortion of the rotors and to assist cooling. Centerline rotors will be available in 140, 160, 180 and 200-millimeter diameters and the standard, six-bolt hub interface.

Familiar Caliper

Guide calipers are essentially the same four-piston items, paired in 14 and 16-millimeter diameters, that are presently used for Avid’s XXI and X01-level Trail Brakes. Sintered metallic pads as standard equipment, and a new optional organic pad has been developed for those who want a more quiet running system. Like Avid brakes, the new Guide platform is charged with DOT 5.1 fluid – a more advanced formulation of the standard DOT-4 automotive brake fluid. Guide brakes are bled and serviced with the same system that SRAM uses for Avid brakes – and the pads are interchangeable with AVID four-piston trail brakes as well.

Three Models

SRAM will offer Guide Brakes in three price points: the top-drawer RSC (Reach adjust, Swing link, Contact-point adjust) with a claimed weight of 375 grams for a complete front brake at $199 a side; the RS, with reach adjust and swing link features at 380 grams and $149; and the $129-per-side Guide R model, which is limited to lever reach adjustments only and said to weigh 375 grams.

Compatibility and Delivery

Guide brakes are projected to arrive in bike shops around July, 2014. SRAM says that the levers will fit Shimano shifters as well as its own triggers and GripShift options, and as mentioned earlier, the clamps and lever design allow the right and left side levers to be easily reversed. Matchmaker compatibility ensures that SRAM’s shift levers, and RockShox’s dropper-post and fork lockout controls can be mounted directly to the handlebar clamps.


Pinkbike’s First Impressions:
bigquotes SRAM treated us to three days of riding in Moab, where the terrain gave us ample opportunity to test the Guide RSC Trail brakes to the limits of their performance - not long enough to hand you a definitive verdict, as we will when we do a longer-term test at home, but we rode them hard enough to say that SRAM now has a brake that can proudly stand alongside XX1 in looks, performance and power. We rode the sintered metallic pads on both cross-country and all-mountain bikes and in all cases, we never were wanting for more stopping power, while the pressure required to mete out a maximum braking effort was comfortably low. To put the new Guide brakes in perspective, we never needed more than one finger and Guide brakes require slightly more squeeze force than Shimano XTR Trail brakes do for the same stopping power. Where SRAM's new stoppers stand above the crowd, however, is in the modulation department. Guide brakes feel seamless on trail - to the point where we forgot about braking completely, even in the most technical situations. It took a while, but it seems SRAM finally got the brake thing right. - RC
SRAM Guide RSC Trail Brake 2014




409 Comments

  • 314 27
 "...addresses the minor deficiencies of its Avid XO and XX1-level trail brakes..." is like:

You know these previous brakesets we made you buy as we explained they were the best? We lied, they were shit. Now THIS is the best... You cannot beat the marketing bs.
  • 88 21
 XO Trail brakes were tits, these must be even more tits.
  • 202 40
 I am Shimano person I must admit. I have tried Avid brakes on numerous occasions and they were always shite.
  • 79 3
 Like the chick with 3 tits from Total Recall?
  • 27 1
 That was not originally my intended as a comparison but, hey, why not...
  • 27 9
 It would have made more sense if it slotted in directly below forrestrae's comment. And I agree - Shimano all the way. On every bike I own.
  • 9 1
 Ooh it makes more sense now LOL
  • 130 15
 Well, obviously they try to make a better product every model year. Would it make more sense if the next brake they released was specifically aimed at being worse? I don't get the logic.

They're trying to fix problems with previous systems. Nothing is perfect, and everything gets improved over time. Nothing different here. You cannot beat the fanboy BS.
  • 12 2
 Well... the caliper looks nice :/
  • 3 0
 And that cam/roller combo does too- I bet it delivers shed loads of modulation...
  • 8 3
 I think I like the rotor. Really long unbroken braking surface. Looks real nice.
  • 63 2
 the name change makes me laugh.... like a former criminal trying to start a new life
  • 14 2
 Thank you for being the voice of reason sherbet. I don't get the whole sram, shaman fan boy thing. I have saints and zee's on my evil and x0 trails on my cube and both work great. Neither is better than the other.
  • 32 5
 I don't know about that. I'll very plainly say I prefer Shimano brakes, I just hate the fanboys picking at the text to try and make Sram out to be this evil megacoporation of death and hate.
  • 14 27
flag scott-townes (Mar 25, 2014 at 10:22) (Below Threshold)
 Avid and their brake fading can fucking burn in hell... this though... this looks nice.
  • 24 11
 I am not a fanboy. I prefer Shimano too. I rode Avids and they sucked. They sucked big time. Very big time. It is not a corporated death and hate. They simply are (or apparently were) crap brakes. That is all.
  • 58 7
 I don't get why, but I've been so incredibly lucky with my Avid brakes. I get them, I cut them to length, I bleed them once, and then they work flawlessly. Aside from that, everything breaks. Everything. I can get people saying "I had some bad luck then got a warranty" or something like that, but chances are, if you could not remedy your braking system at all, the fault was your own, not Avid.

Also think they get a lot of hate as they're the Kona of the bike world. Very popular, normally ridden into the dirt and broken before looked at, then complained about how poor they are without taking the merit of how they were treated into it.

Shimano is a better system in my eyes. Better lever feel, better product to bleed, feels better on the trail, but I honestly think you're a simpleton if your only opinion of avid is "crap."
  • 31 32
 Avids: lever feel- crap, consistency- crap, temperature management- crap, modulation- average, feel- crap, bleeding- smashing great. To summarise- they are crap in my opinion.

I do not buy stuff to 'get the warranty'. I would never buy something that gets as many bad reports and reviews as good ones. Especially brakes man. If you are happy to take the 50/50 chance on your breaking devices then go for it. I must be a simpleton then...
  • 22 20
 Again, if you could never get your brake to feel alright, even after warranty, bleeding, proper setting of the pistons, and otherwise, it speaks loads more about you than it does the system.

You don't have to buy them to "get the warranty." As I implied, they're a very common brake and many bikes come stock with them, on top of that, they're found online for very good deals. There's a huge host of people poorly taking care of them and suffering the results. If you happen to have a bike with Avid stoppers, it's not an issue. Have them properly worked on and they'll run properly. Nobody here is suggesting you go out and spend your hard earned cash on an inferior system, but we are telling people that already own them that they're not "crap" such as some simpletons keep propagating, but rather just need a bit of work out of the box.

Can't handle working on your bike? Cool. Then you're going to take your bike and get someone else to work on it. Can't stand paying for someone to do a hyper simple job on your bike? Cool. Don't buy avid, and if you have avid, stop bitching about an issue that takes 20 minutes to solve.
  • 10 1
 I've been lucky with 2010-2011 AVID CODES. Good brakes actually make you dangerously fast on trails, downhills.
  • 31 1
 I'll be sticking with my Shimano XTs Smile
  • 6 4
 I won't be sticking with my Maguras unless new pads make a world of difference. Think I'll likely be swapping over to SLX or XT brakes. Seem pretty tidy for the money, just not stoked about how they lack rotors from most online stores. Gotta pay for performance though!
  • 2 3
 ..
  • 41 8
 Dear haters: Please keep hating, and selling me your perfectly good brakes cheap so you can buy Shimano!
  • 10 2
 I have just ordered some new saints for my dh bike. I decided in them after much comparison of xo, code, zee and formula the one. I decide on the saints after I got the group set which is outstanding! Anyways, the stock brakes on my bike are elixir 5s. They always lacked power, suffered a lot of fade, even on Short dh tracks. I experienced a lot of the common issues with an old set of elixirs on another bike, and swore I wouldn't get another set of avids. However, I must admit that the elixir 5 brakes surprised me, whilst they lacked in power and heat management from the start, I have owned the bike for 13 months and ridden it for 10 months, including 3 races in wet and dry weather. But I have never bothered to change the pads or bleed them. Consequently, they were even worse than they could have been, but they have only just completely died. My point is, I think avid is very hit and miss, normally miss, but occasionally hit. Rant over, Now here come the neg props....
  • 11 5
 ^ no problem. shimanos are way better anyway, which is the premise of our hatred. Smile
  • 26 6
 You just admitted to the largest fault of having a poor brake, you never bled it. Of course the brake isn't going to preform very well if you don't do basic work to them. Avids are notorious for having poor factory bleeds. If you go out on a poor bleed you have no foot to stand on to say the brake didn't feel very good. Take care of your bike, it will take care of you. Neglect your bike, it will neglect you.
  • 14 6
 "shimanos have good factory bleeds" - that doesnt even make sense. it should just work properly when you buy it.
  • 7 3
 I don't get all the hate on Avids either. I've had three sets of Avid Elixirs, and they've all worked great. Easy to bleed and good feel. I only bleed them once a year too.
  • 12 16
flag davies13 (Mar 25, 2014 at 12:10) (Below Threshold)
 SRAM are horse shit
  • 4 3
 Sherbet, I admit that they won't work as well without a bleed, and I was saying how impressed I was that I hadn't really need to. They still stop me fast enough, I can still get enough power from them using one finger.

The other elixirs I had, I used them for a month on the factory bleed ten had them bled twice in a month and a half and then they started leaking. Wink
  • 10 8
 Firstly, nobody said that. We've noted about avid's bleeds, not shimanos. Secondly, it's a well documented fact they they're a poor factory bleed. It's not perfect, but we know it by now. If you'd rather stamp your feet being cross at Avid than fix the issue, that's fine. There are those of us that really don't mind putting in 20 minutes work to have a system that works very well. Thirdly, there's a huge host of mechanics that work on everything out of the box. Most good shops will over over absolutely every bit of the bike when assembling. If you're getting a built bike with a shit bleed, and you're spending some money on it, look at your shop, they're the ones who are told to cut and bleed every Avid system. Many of us will work on it for nothing more than peace of mind. If that isn't the brake for you, that's fine, but it doesn't make them crap.
  • 2 0
 Also, I read you comment about changing to slx/xt. I have no expirence but I have heard from a few people that the power difference isn't noticeable and the slx s feel almost the same. They said either go slx or xtr. Wink
  • 11 4
 im just saying, add 'poor factory bleeds' to the list of many reasons why people do not approve of avid brakes compared to other manufacturers. lets not make excuses for poor quality now.

would anyone buy a car from a manufacturer who was notorious for a poor factory bleed?
  • 7 3
 @Lukachadwick "But I have never bothered to change the pads or bleed them. Consequently, they were even worse than they could have been, but they have only just completely died. My point is, I think avid is very hit and miss, normally miss, but occasionally hit."
This is like saying: I never put gas or oil in my Honda and it finally died. It was a piece of crap. Come on!
  • 6 5
 It's the only objective thing I can think of on that list though. Avids that are suffering from lack of power or having heat issues are 99/100 times just because they have a poor bleed. That ignorance in the mentality that there's a ton objectively wrong with Avid is why I'm commenting in this thread. No. There are not many reasons Avid is bad. There is one reason, people don't bother working on their own stuff.
  • 3 1
 If you read my comment, I am saying that they took me a long way without needing a bleed or new pads. I'm not critisising the elixir 5s, I am very surprised and pleased at how long they worked for.
  • 3 1
 yeah i see what youre saying. but what happens when they are bled properly, often, but still do not compare to the stopping power of shimanos that have never been bled in two years.
  • 3 3
 Luka, at the same time, all we're saying is that they felt poor as they had been neglected. if they had a bleed, such as what most people need to do, they'd have preformed very well.
  • 2 0
 Cuban b, they were new 13months ago, and they have been used for 10 months. Sherbet, I was impressed with the feel of the brakes, from the start they weren't the best, but they always did the job. I knew what to expect, and actually considering how badly I treated them, they outstood my expectations. Sorry for explaining it badly in my first comment...
  • 5 3
 Avid brakes....they're the only brakes where you can get a warranty pair of XO brakes that needed a bleed out of the box. Literally. I needed to bleed my XO Trails that came from the warranty department. WTF is that? And that's a normal occurrence.

Kudos to how well they take care of problems, but come on, you wouldn't need to take care of the problems if you just designed products well and kept a much better eye at QC the first time around rather than releasing something then fixing mistakes. AKA research and testing. Every product has issues, but none nearly as severe or often as sram/avid.
  • 4 0
 You'd think that these large brake manufacturers would want to ensure that their QC/QA is excellent for their pre-bled packages. If they want to attract a general public with little technical knowledge (or indifference/laziness toward maintenance) to use their pre-bled brakes out of the box without the consequence of this same general public ranting on public forums like they're informed industry professionals, the brakes had better work every time for every single pre-bled brake leaving the factory.

Makes me wonder what the actual automated bleeding and QC/QA process entails. Perhaps a pinkbike factory visit is in order? =p
  • 8 6
 I know I'm going to get some flak for this, but honestly, I've seen more examples of Hope brakes that could not be repaired than I have seen of Avid. At least with Avid, the fix is typically hyper easy and fast, but some of the issues I've seen on other brakes (mismachined ressies, hoses that don't fit in correctly, pads that don't line up correctly with the piston) make Avid look straightforward and easy. Also bare in mind their CC is unmatched. You call them, say you have an issue, and they fix it. PERIOD.

But yes, if we are to sound off on the bleeding broken record, Avids come with a poor bleed. They also note to cut and bleed their brakes after they come out of the box, which is why they come with a poor bleed, as they advise you to bleed the brake.
  • 8 0
 I have always had luck with my Avids too. The whole "it doesnt feel right before its bled" is like whining that a WC level fork feels crap but you didnt take time to get any rebound or compression setup correctly.

Not saying I dont like shimanos too but I have to side with Sherbs on this one. Avids are great breaks. Poor mechanics can ruin the performance of any nice component.
  • 4 0
 So if it's the mechanics ruining the brakes...please explain why Avid's are CONSISTENTLY needed to be bled straight from the factory? Seems to me that's really shit QC. On countless occassions I've called up the warranty dept and they've handled the issues without hesitation (which is awesome) but they give me things like "this batch of hoses wasn't manufactured properly" or "the machine bleeding the brakes was out of spec" or "the machine milling the pistons was out of spec..." Yeah, that's called crap any way you look at it if a MASSIVE number of brakes across all lines has issues and the product got packaged and distributed. It's even worse when the warranty department is sending out brakes that have issues, meaning they didn't even assure the warranty replacements are properly working.
  • 5 0
 Honestly if the Hope's couldn't be repaired that's because the lazy ass importer wouldn't get the parts in.
  • 3 5
 If by "part" you mean "whole new reservoir" then yes. It was also a fairly expensive fix given he could (and did) swap to another set of brakes that same day and be out riding.

I'd still say Hope makes a great brake, even if I have seen issues. That's my point. EVERYTHING BREAKS. Why Avid has to be perfect to not be crap is beyond me.
  • 4 5
 Also, nobody said mechanics are ruining bikes. I mentioned that mechanics should be going over every bit of a new bike before selling it to a customer. Surely you agree that a shop that sells iffy bikes is not a shop you'd want to browse at?

Please stop construing asinine things from my posts. My points are simple. Avid makes a good brake with a fairly common and large problem, but the problem is a very easy to fix one. If an easy to fix problem means something is shit, then I've no idea what to say.
  • 5 0
 Somebody edited their posts...cause I was replying to "maybe the machanics are jacking them up..."

The warranty process....you really have to wonder about that. I waste about 15 minutes of every day calling Avid on warranty issues. As I said, yes, they fix the issue...but I have at least 50 Avid warranty issues to every Shimano issue when it comes to brakes. The Shimano issues typically pertain to the non-gruppo brakes....the Avid problems range from Elixers to XX brakes....all of them being they can't hold a bleed or simply just work like crap.

Again, kudos to Avid handling their issues, but again, do it right the first time, have solid quality control, and the warranty department won't be flooded like they are. Funny how a company that did $500 million last year across all their lines have 30 times the amount of warranty issues as a company that did over $1.5 billion in their bicycle line alone. THAT'S what my point was.
  • 3 0
 Sorry I think the mechanic post was aimed at me. I mean the "mechanic" (aka whomever is installing the brakes, be it you, me, the dude at the shop) should be bleeding a new set of brakes as soon as they are installed.

Dont jump him too bad Sherb he was just asking a question of me.
  • 5 5
 I did not edit any of my posts. I cannot speak for others. Cheers man, was confused.

I cannot really fathom needing 15 minutes a day to resolved Avid issues. I will again say that the vast majority of issues with Avids are very easy to fix in a shop, or flatout need replacing as they've been crashed and burnt.

You are also assuming your method is best. Avid sells them with an iffy bleed, as again, they instruct stores to cut and bleed them to the bike. It's not really Avid's fault that shops aren't taking the steps that are needed and faulty bikes are going out the store. Is it a pain in the ass for the shops? Sure as hell is it. Is it as much of an issue as what people are making it out to be? Seriously? 20 minutes of work for a multihundred dollar investment is too much? Take up knitting if you honestly feel that.

I'm with the guy above with his line about forks. A WC fork does not come out of box ready to rip. You will need to tune it to your bike and your riding style, and often that involves oil weights, oil CC count, shims, and otherwise. Are we going to fault fork companies for knowing you have to work on their product to get the most of it? You're welcome to start the trend.
  • 3 0
 Don't be afraid to learn to wrench on your own bikes. Understanding and learning how your hydro brakes inner workings, bleeding, and changing pads are top of that list. I found often times the crush washer ($1) is the culprit, make sure it seated right and properly tightened. Good luck!
  • 5 0
 I wanna know what SRAM thought about the XTR Trails.
  • 4 0
 I agree with Sherberts comments. and if you buy a set of avid brakes aftermarket and they need a bleed out of the box Who cares. the hose would have to be cutt anyways to size it. and really you should be bleeding a brake every time you size the hose. i know you can get away with cutting it and not loosing oil and not bleeding but really they even say in the instructions you should bleed it after cutting. I still prefer Shimanos mainly because of their bleed process and i hate working with DOT fluid, but both brakes work great when properly maintained/setup.
  • 3 0
 @sherbert, good thing you mentioned forks. The 1st thing I do when I get a new one is change out the stock oil to Spectra 7.5 weight and put the right amount for the rider, 20mins tops.
  • 2 0
 In addition to @JonJonM comments, do not re-use the crush washers ($1) on the cut brake lines, always replace with a new one. Good Luck!
  • 4 1
 @sherbet, I have owned 3 sets of Avid brakes. Both elixir pairs I had were terribly unreliable. I bled them with every technique I could find, but they were still rubbish. I took them to 2 different shops each and they couldn't make them good either. Your insistence that Avids are mainly bad because people don't bleed them doesn't tally with my experience, and that of several of my friends. If bleeding is the major cause for Avid's previous shiteness, then why were they swapping out faulty trail brakes at Crankworx last year with just an apology and no questions asked?
  • 5 8
 Because every company knows they can produce a lemon. Avid is wise enough to not blame their customers for the occasional issue, and would rather just see you happy and rolling.

Seeing as you didn't complain about the set they gave you, I'll assume they worked for their purpose and couldn't be called "shitty."

Also as every issue is personal, and I can't speak for your workmanship or the shop you brought it to, I don't know why you're asking for me to give you an explanation for something I couldn't know? Perhaps you did a poor job bleeding it? Perhaps the shops were lazy and didn't use the correct method to get the air out of the line? Maybe there was a fitment issue with the hose or a seal issue that neither you nor the shops could find? I couldn't tell you the specifics, nor will I ever be able to. Your brake didn't work. You took it to Avid. They replaced it with one that did work. They didn't bother to berate you with everything they could have to make you feel inept, rather, they took the brake, they tossed it in a van, they looked at it later on to see what the issue was, and then a few months/years later, they produced the brake you're currently looking at, to address those issues.

What else would you have them do? This hobby horse is dead and beaten.
  • 3 1
 I still don't agree with you, but oh well. I didn't return my brakes, as I have got rid of them all, I just watched a line of people getting them swapped whilst I was waiting for my fork service. I think the key point that we see differently on is that I believe that if Avid thought a large % of the faulty brakes had bleed issues then they would bleed them for people, or show a fool proof way to bleed them online. Perhaps they are really really hard to bleed and keep working well. That, in my opinion, makes them shitty brakes.
  • 5 8
 So you went over to get a fork serviced, and the fork is okay, but the brakes needing service is totally unacceptable?

Avid instructs people to bleed them. They have several foolproof methods for you to do at home with a few different price levels of bleed kits available.

I'm also struggling to see these absolute droves of people having issues that you're alluding to. I'm seeing a common brake have a fairly low instance of issues due to negligent owners/dealers. The issues are very different to me. A shop not taking care of the product it sells is a bigger issue in my eyes, and I dislike how they're passing off the issue to a company that is telling them the exact solution that they need. This is a shitty little blame game. It stops here. If your brake doesn't work, fix it. If you cannot fix it, you are likely the problem.

They are very easy to bleed. The fact that you keep implying they're near impossible to bleed really makes me wonder if this was the brake's fault, or you just couldn't provide a decent bleed? You weren't even aware there were video tutorials on the matter, so it does make me curious how much you knew about bleeding before you failed at it. Again, this speaks loads more about the owners than the product. Most examples brought up in this comment chain seem to point to that same conclusion.
  • 5 6
 " Hi, Im James Albers. The bonehead that designed the POS Elixir brakes. I have another POS brakes, buy it. "
  • 4 1
 I think you need to be a little less presumptive.

I watched their videos. I have bled many other brakes successfully. I am aware of the need to bleed brakes, and do so regularly. 'Fool proof' was my way of suggesting that the Elixir models I and many people I have spoken to had were either really hard to bleed properly, or had some kind of flaw that led to them performing badly and unreliably. Maybe that was limited to the popular models i owned a few years ago, and that has in turn biased my view that many people returning a particular model of brake to a manufacturer with a non bleed related issue (they were advising people when they thought bleeding was the problem) makes a flawed brake, and not flawed people. Maybe if a brand has a problem whereby their product is not as reliable or servicable to a significant proportion of their customers as their competitors' are then their product is not up to standard, and that is a problem with the product, not with the users? Consumers should not have to resolve design flaws with the products.

Also, there is a difference between getting a fork serviced, and giving the fork back to the manufacturer because it has a major problem that the manufacturer is seemingly aware of and apologising for.
  • 4 5
 I wasn't being presumptuous, I'm merely trying to illustrate how I can't answer the question of how your brake wasn't working, as I didn't work on your brake. Absolutely anything I try to answer with would be an assumption, and I'm rather trying to say I don't know. You could be a great mech, you could be a hack mech, most of the things I'm hearing point to hack in regards to people not being able to make their brake work. The fact you're stating you couldn't get two sets to work speaks more loudly to poor mechanic, frankly. There is no difference. You don't know if it's worth Avid's time to bleed every single brake they encounter in the same way they would service a fork. The systems cost a much different amount. What is the same between the examples is a company willing to work on a product in order to keep a customer happy. Why people keep relating good customer service to shit products is beyond me. Also, speaking of presumptions, you're assuming all of those people just got replacements rather than had their issues sorted out. You didn't go into the line, you didn't bother seeing the process first hand, you're making assumptions. Past that, you saw a perfect opportunity to fix a product and walked away from it, while you're saying you were waiting there anyway. Clearly the issue wasn't that big of a deal. No matter how you stamp online, your actions in person, and your desire to not fix the issue, speaks louder than your hate.
  • 3 1
 Clearly this is going nowhere, and your last paragraph was about me and not the product we were debating, so lets end the debate here. I would just like to clear up the personal issues you raised I don't hate avid, I just don't think their brakes are as good as their competitors. I know the people didn't get their problems fixed as they handed over their broken brakes and got given new ones, it was a process that took 30 seconds per person and I could hear the whole transactions. I'm not an amazing mechanic, but I'm competent and generally quite capable of bleeding brakes and performing routine maintenance with all components on my bikes. I didn't return my brakes to avid, as i had already sold them. Thank you for the debate.
  • 7 0
 As Sherbet has been saying, Avids need an installation bleed, and regular bleeds to maintain their feel and power. Agreed, the idea of install and forget is not to be advised with ANY brakes: they need looking after do brakes, your life may depend upon it one day.

I was running various combinations of Juicys, Codes and Elixirs for years and can say, without qualification, I have learned all about the internals of every one of those three systems.

After years of experimenting with various bleed methods, the SRAM official method, my local LBS method, mates' methods, and after hours spent doing code and elixir lever overhauls because of a combination of seized pistons (code) and worn plastic parts (elixir), I decided personally to try some Shimano brakes. The rationale behind this was that, given my busy work and family schedule, I didn't want to sit down and strip down a lever, or re bleed the system again.... I would rather reduce the time spent fixing issues, I'd rather pick up the bike and go ride, so I bought some of last years Deore brakes and have been so impressed, I bought another set, and a set of SLX. The Avids have gone.

For a home mechanic, it is my personal experience that the Avid brakes I've had, required more of my time than have the Shimanos.
  • 4 0
 Simple thing here is avid have a piss poor design, it doesn't hold up long term. that being the case go back to the drawing board, don't mod it and hope it gets better. yes you can make them feel good but how long does that last and how much ball ache and cost is there to put it right? when there are cheaper alternatives that have an as good if not better feel and much longer service intervals you've gotta maybe take a step back an rethink and avid have been running this same basic design (allbeit with tweeks) since god knows when.
  • 4 5
 looks like the sram fanbois are the rabid ones today Smile . the long-winded posts defending sram only show insecurity for what they are arguing. confidence in your equipment doesn't require an all day internet debate. thanks for the entertainment though. lol
  • 4 4
 You're running a full shimano bike, including wheels, I'm not running a single Avid part, but rather a host of stuff I got at good pricing and does a good job. The fanboy here is obvious.
  • 2 0
 how do you know what im running or how much i spent to purchase those nice functional parts? i wasnt even talking about you sherbet, we cool.
  • 6 1
 Then maybe you should stop being their chief apologist, it seems like such a thankless role.

Here's a thought. If Avid know that their brakes need a bleed out of the box, and experience shows that most customers are too stupid or too lazy to bleed them, maybe just maybe it's time they changed their policy on selling part set-up goods to accommodate the reality of their customer base and started selling them fully bled. I work in sports marketing if my customers were that f-in stupid/stubborn I'd change the product spec to help them, anyone who wants a good product rep would do the same.
  • 9 0
 I like turtles
  • 2 0
 @sq225917

How would they size the hose?
  • 1 0
 I don't want anything on my MTB to be ROBUST!
  • 3 1
 Wrong. XT's rock.
XT all day for the money, feel , and quality.
@chadwick
If your riding mid-grade brakes and not taking care of / or maintaining them , of coarse your gonna have issues you idiot.
Would you ride a kmart bike full speed downhill with your Heath depending on it ?
Why run lower grade brakes in that situation and expect perfection ?

P.s - I loved my avid OX's.
Rode them a full season - XC and downhill without any issues at all.
  • 4 1
 After the last couple seasons of terrible brake designs by Avid, these new joints should be on the house.
  • 6 0
 It would be easier to get someone to change religions or sexual orientation than get an Avid hater to like Avids. People are so goddamn stubborn and unwilling to give something new a try. Listen to yourselves. There are over 50 comments here of you (supposedly) ADULTS bitching back and forth about the performance of a brake THAT NONE OF YOU HAVE EVEN TRIED. Shut up!
  • 3 0
 Also, to original comment, nobody "made you" buy anything.
  • 7 0
 Come on people..........brake it up! teeeheeee!
  • 5 2
 Avid has to be perfect to not be crap for a couple of reasons:

1. Shimano exists, simple as that. You cant get anymore reliable/durable/powerful than the xtr trail brakes. they rock
2. Their reputation is terrible, and have pretty much always been that way since Avid/Sram brakes went past the point of no return.
3. they come from the factory with a bad bleed, im not sure about you guys, but i wouldn't trust it if their own factory cant bleed brakes properly...
  • 2 2
 most of us - at least I am - are basing our opinions on past experience. so we have tried avid. granted, not these new ones, i'll admit. but the sentiment here is "ten bux says these suck also, based on past experience, and the fact that they said they'd fix the problems with their last iteration, which turned out to be dubious".

I'm just hoping Avid/SRAM can 'brake' their own curse. get it, Lana? brake? lol
  • 6 1
 If you do a bit of research other than the review which may or may not be biased you will see that bar Codes the whole Sram/Avid line up is poor. MTBR is always a good place to see the general trend of a companies products. From what I can see the main manufactures average rate is:

Avid Elixer = 3.18
Avid Juicy = 3.41
Avid Code = 4.15

Formula The one/RX/R1 = 4.39

Hope M4/Me evo/V2/X2/X2 evo= 4.56

Hayes HFX 9 = 3.4
Hayes Prime, Pro, Stroker ace, carbon, gram, ryde, trail = 3.90

Shimano Overall (XT/Saint/SLX/XTR/Zee) = 4.21
Shimano XT = 4.16
Shimano Saint = 4.12
Shimano SLX = 4.15
Shimano XTR = 4.30
Shimano Zee = 4.47

That's the view of the general public, simple data available to all. Sram/Avid is well below where it should be, I'm actually surprised Shimano wasn't better. Hayes also did well considering not many people on this site would buy there brakes at the moment, just not cool or advertised.

You have to be impressed by Hope & Formula beating the big companies in the public's view.
  • 3 2
 Am I crazy or do I see a Reverb trigger connected somehow?
Just point me in the right direction please.
  • 3 1
 Its always good when there is competition to keep everyone making better stuff. If either company is the mega evil one it would have to be the one associated with efficiently destroying the largest biomes of the world, our oceans. I've been hooked on Shimano for ages and a good reason to change is very welcome.
  • 4 2
 Probb im the only AVID fan here i used to run a set of Juicy 7 and they ware foking awesome never had any issues and i ride a lot as i mean a lot i mean a lot of DH and here the track is dry dusty and the weather is hot and dry about 30-35C summer temp. Well later i moved to set of Elixir 5 and they ware good as well, now im running x9 carbon and i would like to say they are amazing too. So far im pleased with the performance and ect. probb the best lever feeling too. I will admit they are not strong as 4 cylinders, any other brake, but come on i don't need a concrete block heavy as i fok and i don't need a nasty bite on a high speed cornering so for those like me i think Avid are not that bad Razz with a right pads composition my X9 is fair enough to fit my riding stile Smile
  • 2 4
 Thanks for leaching and not even trying to answer a valid question "choppertank3e" and "DragRider"...
  • 3 0
 @bainbridge thanks for actually doing some research and at least attempting to quantify any of this shit. Obviously there's some amt of public bias on the interweb, but I think that data makes it pretty clear who's on top in customer satisfaction.

People can go back and forth on design and maintenance philosophies all day, but the point is that both sides seem to agree that one of the products (Avid) seems to require a non-negligible amount more service than the other (Shimano) on average. To be a product of equal quality, it would have to perform better to make up for it, but that's not what I hear from people online, in shop, or in person. If people and their maintenance/laziness are the problem with Avids, and Avids and Shimanos are of comparable quality, then you would expect to hear about just as many problems with Shimano as Avid. But we don't hear that. So either Shimano customers are smarter and better at maintenance or you need to conclude that Avid is offering a lower quality product, or at least not suiting their design specs to their consumer base as well.

I don't think you have to be an Avid hater to find fault with their QC and design/production philosophy. Personally I love most SRAM products. I have used SRAM Apex group, Truvativ stuff, and several RS XC forks and liked them all. Hell, I've even used Avid Shortys, Single Digits, BB7s, and BB5s with zero issues. On the other hand, I've never met someone who gushes about Avid hydraulics the way they gush about Shimanos, and I've heard lots of complaints about the need for maintenance. That's pretty much enough to deter me from buying Avid hydros, but hopefully Guides can change that.
  • 3 0
 Well summed bkm303. Ditto.
  • 1 2
 I will gush about the Trail brakes. In fact, I've never had a problem with Avid brakes at all... XX, Elixir 5, Juicy 5, Juicy 7, and XO Trail. I've liked them all, never had a problem. I also never met an Avid brake I couldn't bleed, and I rather like the 2 syringe method, because it's really clean. Now, I have also owned various iterations of Shimano (XT, XTR trail, XTR race, ZEE), and while I also like them, I just think the new Avid Trail brakes has them beat. Before the Trails, Shimano took a slight lead, because while they're a bit heavier, they're more powerful. With the Trail brakes, power is not an issue, and they're lighter as well with better modulation.

Any decent brake these days will lock up a wheel with 1 finger, so that's not important any more. You should ask: "How easy is it to NOT lock up the wheel?" Good modulation will save your ass in low traction situations.
  • 1 2
 As for the MTBR research, You have something there, but you have to take it with a grain of salt. You don't know who's out there reviewing. It could be someone who bought a bike with OEM Avids, who fully expected them to suck, went out for 1 ride and wasn't impressed with them, and came home and wrote a bad review. For this reason, I put much more stock in long term reviews from bike mags and PB. These people have skills and knowledge about bikes that makes their opinion more valid. Beyond that, I have the tools and knowledge as well as motivation to wrench on my own gear, which is what the Bike mag guys and PB reviewers do as well. Also, some people just don't take care of their stuff. I'll admit that if your bicycle maintenance philosophy is to mount a part and forget about it, Shimano is better because it just seems to require less attention. But the attention required by Avid isn't unreasonable. In fact, about once every 5 or 6 rides, everyone should really take the time to at least pull the pads out of your caliper and inspect them. Clean the caliper with alcohol and an old toothbrush or a q-tip or something. You're taking your life in your hands whizzing balls out down a mountain. If you expect something to happen when you pull the brake lever, then take some responsibility for your bike's maintenance.
  • 3 0
 I had 2010-2011codes and I loved them.looked amazing,tons of power. Then the lever became inconsistent. Bleed,was fine for a few weeks then same again. Then the seals went in the lever and the caliper. Really cheap for new seals,replaced them and from that day on. Power was drastically worse. Don't know why,sold them. Now have saints. Not touched the in two years.will never use avid again. But then I've had mates who's saints were bad so go figure!
  • 2 3
 we should stop. we're hurting sram brake users' feelings.
  • 3 1
 Cuban, really love how you keep implying everyone is a fanboy, when you're just sitting here spouting off irrelevant bullshit trying to troll everyone. Let them have their discussion. Like momma always said, "If you have nothing worth reading to write, put down the keyboard."
  • 3 0
 Mikelee, if your buddy ever figures his saints out let me know. I have a friend who's saints never wanted to function correctly after multiple bleeds. He never could figure out what needed corrected but still has them. If their is a fix he doesnt know about, he could get a backup set of brakes going. THey were sweet brakes before he had problems though. He's on codes now. He likes them too.
  • 3 2
 "You don't know who's out there reviewing. It could be someone who bought a bike with OEM Avids, who fully expected them to suck, went out for 1 ride and wasn't impressed with them, and came home and wrote a bad review."

Why would that be any more likely than someone buying and reviewing a bike with OEM shimano brakes? Sure, internet reviews should always be taken with grains of salt, but the reviews of one product is far better than the other in the same class.

"I'll admit that if your bicycle maintenance philosophy is to mount a part and forget about it, Shimano is better because it just seems to require less attention."

In other words, Shimano has a more robust and reliable design that offers the same performance. That's pretty much by definition a better design. Less time wrenching is more time riding.

"But the attention required by Avid isn't unreasonable. But the attention required by Avid isn't unreasonable. In fact, about once every 5 or 6 rides, everyone should really take the time to at least pull the pads out of your caliper and inspect them."

Every 5 rides? That's an insanely short service/inspection interval for pretty much any consumer product I can think of. I trust my life to my car all the time, and that gets inspected once every couple months at most. Should they have the same standards? Probably not. But it's a bike, not an airliner or fighter jet. Any piece of recreational equipment that requires inspection that often is a bad piece of equipment, imo (except maybe climbing rope? but you just look at it whenever you coil it up). If that was the industry standard that would be one thing, but there is at least one option in the market that setting the bar way higher in terms of reliability.... until Avid hydros can catch up they can't really be considered a better/equal product.
  • 3 3
 My sincerest apologies to sherbet. I was merely joking, as I did not realize internet discussion boards about disc brakes were taken this seriously, nor was it my intention to disrespect a "PLUS" member, but you've put me in my place. But if you think I'm a troll, then it's obvious your feelings were hurt, all over disc brakes, and for that I'm genuinely sorry. You're absolutely correct - this is a very profound discussion. That being said, you should follow your own advice Wink . Please continue, and ignore my comments.
  • 4 3
 I think you're a troll. You came out to an Avid brake article to spout constant needless bullshit hate, without ever trying to enter the discussion. You called people fanboys, shit all over factual opinions, and now you're mocking someone for telling you to stop spreading the hate. Come back when you're cool with being an adult and can talk with the rest of us without shitty buzzwords and idiotic fanboy bullshit. People like you are what's ruining these articles for every that actually wants to learn something. Inb4 another retarded mocking post that's nowhere related to the brakes. Also, I went though a host of Avid manuals. Can't find any literature stating they need to be bled from factory. That's fairly poor.
  • 3 3
 wow you're mad. c'mon man, i said i hope avid/sram brake their curse. i'm supporting them. Smile
  • 3 3
 In after another retarded mocking post that's nowhere related to bikes. At least your shit is predictable...
  • 4 3
 If I were a real troll, I'd be satisfied with this reaction I'm causing. But, I'm not. I'm genuinely a little bit concerned over the amount of anxiety you're displaying over something so minor and insignificant to life and even biking. I'm genuinely sorry for that, and look into yourself for peace and perspective. I mean that.

Avid is way better than Shimano.

is that better?
  • 3 5
 If you were a real troll (and you are) you would continue to milk out responses (aka trolling) for as long as you could, which, incidentally, is exactly what you are doing. Now you are pulling mock sympythy bullshit to try to make yourself out to be the bigger dude. We're on a thread about brakes. You haven't been talking about brakes. You have been talking about fanboy this and shitty brake that. You can turn it to me being anxious, but you're the idiot who felt the constant need to take this debate and make it personal. I'd really wonder about your mental health if you feel the need to drop on a BIKING website in order to troll and act a fool. If anyone here is unhealthy, it's sure as f*ck the 34 year old man trying to annoy a group of bikers.

Again, come back out when you've grown up a bit and don't feel the need to troll an article. People are trying to have a conversation here. It's absolutely marvelous that your THIRTY FOUR year old ass feels the need to harass and annoy a group of people trying to learn, but if you don't mind, could you take it somewhere more appropriate? Say 4chan?

So. Do you mind shutting up and letting the people talk? Sat aside for ages letting people discuss their opinions only to see your constant shitty little jabs. If you don't want to talk about bikes, get the f*ck off a biking website. Obvious.
  • 4 4
 Relax. Let's go grab a beer and talk it out. If you're ever in LA, contact me and we'll hang out, go for a ride, have a j. Where in Canada are you located? I didn't research your profile, so let me know, and I'm sure I'll be up there soon (I go up there for work). I visit UBC, McGill, and Montreal multiple times a year and always look forward to it every time. Peace, young man.
  • 2 7
flag sherbet Plus (Mar 26, 2014 at 12:31) (Below Threshold)
 Sorry, tend to ride with friends. Someone who openly mocks and tries to make me out to be a bad dude is not a friend. Think I'll keep riding with friends. Cheers.
  • 2 4
 The Invitation is always open, to talk it out like real men. Cheers, buddy. Smile
  • 2 4
 You're not a real man. You are a troll. You resolve issues by doing anything to get a reaction, and you're still doing it. I really hope that one day you're able to act the age you state you are.
  • 2 1
 Think the boys have the best answer to this:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ZSbpj21W0
  • 2 2
 This was worst case ontario. What comes around is all around!
  • 1 2
 It's better to read online than learning through denial and error. Or you can just look at supply and command and see why Avid is still around.
  • 4 1
 @at all..

As a professional bike mechanic and workshop manager, I've worked on literally 100's of hydraulic brake systems including Sachs (!!), Magura, Formula, Avid, Shimano, Hope, Tektro, Hayes.

I've also had constant involvement in undertaking warranty claims on both brand new (boxed bike) and used brake systems for customers.

Avid in my opinion had a good solid product with their juicy series. There were some QC issues on later Juicy models typically on the lower cost models made for the OE market. Generally if you bled Juicys properly and perhaps once a year, replaced the caliper seals / pistons and lubed with silicon grease, those brakes would run like butter for many seasons
  • 4 1
 Moving onto Elixir, the "Taperbore" design introduced some immediate issues relating to the master cylinder including the QC of the assembly, difficulty to bleed due to bleed port location, development of pin-hole leaks in the diaphragm (which was somewhat cured after 2012 with move to Nalgene material), leaks through the in-line "pad contact adjuster" on earlier models and other issues

would not tarr Avid brakes as being "cr*p". Avid built a huge OE business (taking the market share from Hayes) and so you see more Avid brakes on bikes, and more faults. It's all proportional. I have run Avid brakes since the original Juicy and have owned many versions of Juicy and Elixir, some were golden, others a nightmare that required warranty claims.

Same situation for my many customers....Avid warranty is very good and timely (and generous) which has helped me in my job when dealing with angry customers with brake issues! My last set of Avid (Elixir 7) failed after 7 weeks, Avid could not sold the issues and replaced both brakes FOC with aftermarket version which had the carbon fibre levers. No issues since..

The new brakes in this article are interesting because they are not using the "taperbore" MC design, but a larger piggyback design. See what happens.

Currently building many bikes with an Italian brake fitted and that is a sh*tfest to say the least...brakes faulty of out the box with DOT all over the workshop floor!
  • 3 1
 At least i can say atoadaso, atoadaso!, A F****N' ATOADASO! Razz
  • 2 2
 To agree and elaborate a tad. With the elixir, avid made the spacing in the pads a fair lot thinner. Because of that, I found them very finiky for bleeding, whereas Juicy brakes would often feel good with a fairly crap bleed. Really did like the Juicy line, and hoping the new Guide follows in it's footsteps. Hope ya didn't get any DOT on ya hands. Hate that. Cheers man!
  • 4 1
 @sherbert

agree about the spacing - that was a side effect of the "taperbore" design for the MC which was basically a much slimmer design with low fluid volume, this made the brake very very sensitive to pad wear. I've seen many elixirs (including my own) where 1/2 of the pad material is still on the backing plate yet the brake does not work properly as the fluid volume has dropped below the tolerance range for the MC timing port

This is actually commented on in the article for this new brake, that they have increased fluid volumes, it can only be a good thing

something else that has been interesting is SRAM advertising globally on job recruitment websites for a hydraulic brake engineer to work in Colorado Wink

in the road cycling market, SRAM made a huge mess with their new hydro discs which got recalled due to safety issues in cold weather, I have customers who purchased kit before Christmas 2013 and have been told its probably May 2014 for their replacement
  • 2 2
 Thanks for putting some information behind that.
  • 3 1
 @sherbet

no problem, those of us working at the "blunt end" get to see these issues first hand. Most brakes don't actually have "bad bleeds" but poor setups!

something I will say about all DOT based brake systems is that something riders / customers need to understand is that DOT based system degrade over time due to the corrosive nature of the DOT fluid on the rubber parts in the caliper and MC, after some time you do need to be replacing these parts.

2 issues I have seen, too many times:-

1 is "sticky pistons" in DOT systems where the rider has gone to the trouble of rebuilding the brake and during this rebuild have split the caliper half, degreased the metal parts, installed new pistons and seals but made the fatal mistake of "lubing" the seals with DOT fluid during the rebuild. DOT is not a lubricant..its a brake fluid. Using DOT as a lube on the seals certainly makes them feel smooth when you push the pistons back in during the rebuild, but does not lubricate the seals and actually causes them to swell within minutes causing binding! The only item to use is high-temp silicon grease on the seals, and then degrease the caliper halves before rebuilding, to remove any excess grease. Doing this right gives butter smooth brake action.

2 is "centering the brake" using the pads over rotor as a guide, rather than the caliper-half. Many 2-piece calipers have a split-line, this should be eyeballed as the centre line when centreing the brake over the rotor. Using the pads as a centre often reflects the existing problem of sticky pistons, and exaggerates the issue going forward.

in constrast, Mineral Oil based brakes don't suffer the same rubber degredation as DOT systems over time. This is why many mineral oil brake manufacturers don't offer rubber parts.
  • 1 2
 @ Sherbet: Don't you mean what's all around comes around?
  • 2 2
 Ahaha. A low shit pressure is rolling in, Max, can you feel it? The winds of shit are coming.
  • 1 2
 Better haul in the jib! There's a shitticane coming and you don't want to get covered in shit!
  • 3 0
 @maxlombardy - The amount of reviews over all the brakes was nearly 1900 in total, so you'd expect 1900 sets of brakes to have been reviewed by random public members, the likes of you and me. Correct some industry insiders may have written the odd review or two which most of us would not be cool with if we found out. However I doubt they wrote all of them, I generally disregard the MTBR review if it only has say 3 people reviewed the product as just not enough people have tried them and bothered to review them to get any real opinion from it.

If a magazine or website gets invited to test parts then the parts will likely be the first off the production line, if the companies had done done the QC process correctly on those assemblies, i.e. a full inspection on every component, not just critical features, then we would not see many bad reviews.

The stuff we the public buy is the production goods, the every day stuff that comes out of the factory. In my opinion the quality and reviews of this is much more important than a magazine/website and we can see what quality a company produces in the real world.

It's great to get an insight as to what new products are coming to the bike world, everyone likes a bit of bike porn to gaze over and it's why we read sites like this.
  • 3 0
 Someone made a comment about OEM stuff, people often think it is of a lesser quality to the after market stuff. Why do we think and expect it??? To me that's absurd, the stuff is machined in the same factory, probably assembled in the same factory and tested in the same factory. If the company does not have the correct processes and procedures in place to churn out a quality product time and time again they will get a bad name for themselves and they only have themselves to blame for the poor name.

In my opinion Avid have some great designs when they work but you have to question the quality of the manufacturing and the also the designs if it can not be made time and time again at the correct quality. A small bore change due to bad tooling, a score left by a bit of swarf, porosity of a seal or caliper can mean the difference between a brake that will function perfectly and one which will never work right. With the correct QC and processes you can get rid of most of the problems.

From the divided opinion on this site and the data available to us you have to conclude that Avid have struggled over the last 5 years or so to match the public opinion of the other companies.
  • 3 4
 Yeah, because I never hear hate about Shimano hubs and cranks being inferior, never hear hate about fox ruining their dampening flatforms, never hear about straitline's tolerance issues, never hear about formula's bleed and quality issues, never hear anything bad about spec and their constant standards, never hear anything bad about giant's new overdrive. ETC ETC ETC FOR EVER. Every company makes a product that can be complained about. Why you feel Avid stands alone in the shittalk category I will never know. Avid has a pretty fantastic public opinion, it's just a few haters seem to scream really loudly when it comes up.
  • 3 4
 ^ Avid doesn't stand alone in the shittalk category - this a sram/avid article, so, naturally, one should assume that the focus of comments would be on sram/avid. For someone who doesn't run Avid, you sure are stressing yourself out alot over this. I would understand if you were paid by sram or ran the company. As far as screaming goes, you win that medal.

by the way, it's "what goes around, comes around." Wink
  • 4 1
 You missed that inside joke B.
  • 2 1
 Dont think its just Avid Sherbert, i remember RS getting a hell of a lot of flack for dukes psylos and other forks because the quality was out the window just before SRAM bought them and turned them around. Marzo got a lot of flack in that 07-09 period for QC issues. Manitou had the same for the travis just failing and generally crap quality on most forks right before hayes bought them out.

I think the thing with Avid might be some people remember how good their Vbrakes were and where as shimano have made a good jump into the hydro market avid havent thrown anything out there yet that people have sat back and gone "holy sh*t i need me a pair of them". Hope have a good rep, hayes did have, shimano certainly do where as avid generally, and i stress the generally, most people have a "meh" sort of attitude about
  • 1 4
 Stress? Hardly. The fact you keep coming out to drop buzzwords over shit that's irrelevant, once again, points to you being the dude who's anxious about this. I'm merely stating Avid gets a lot of hate even though they're not the only company having issues. That's relevant to the topic, f*ckboy. Coming in from left field for the tenth time to try and make shit personal is not.

Again, you can leave and come back when you're ready to act like an adult. Clearly not there yet. Clearly.

I'd still say Avid has a better public image than most companies. Fox has been able to keep getting love after year after year of mediocre products lines. Spec is able to constantly put out shitty standards. We get on with it as they also make a host of really good parts, exactly like Sram does. If Sram were to nix their other names, such as Avid and Truvativ, and keep it all under the Sram tree, I feel people would be forced to open their eyes at all the good shit they make, like drivetrains, suspension, and small parts.

By the way, idiot, I was quoting Trailer Park Boys after someone posted a TPB video. I'm sorry you're not up to date on pop culture, but please do try to keep ahead before trying to sound smart. It has once again backfired.
  • 2 1
 I think it's interesting that most Sram users don't slam Shimano products. I think Shimano makes good stuff, but I also think it's not the end-all be all. If you're a ham-fisted mechanic or just too lazy to perform maintenance, get Shimano. It's good stuff, and it probably won't let you down. If, however, you are motivated to put in a little work to keep your product in good order, buy the new Sram (trail brakes). You will be rewarded with lighter brakes with better modulation.
  • 5 1
 There's a lesson to be learnt here. If you want to ensure the continuing output of negative feeling for any brand, especially one who might deserve it the very best thing to do is to take the stand as an apologist for them and try to tell everyone that their experiences don't mean shit. Sherb is waving the Avid/SRAM fanboi banner so hard I'm beginning to think he might actually work for Shimano and be in charge of their flip psychology dept. ;-)
  • 2 2
 Not saying their experiences don't mean anything, just saying they don't know how to properly set up and maintain a brake system. Any little flaw is hence magnified.
  • 4 2
 people calling me bad words hurts my feelings Frown
  • 3 1
 @maxlombardy lol i totally did miss that inside joke. oops. thanks for the catch. and you're right, sram does make good stuff. i run their drivetrain on my road bike. just not their brakes, obviously lol
  • 2 2
 i love the backhanded explanation. it's not that your experience doesnt matter - you just suck at taking care of your bike. so anyone that has a poor experience with a product line automatically sucks at working on their bike? LOL

What do you guys say to the article that quotes WC pro riders preferring Formula and Shimano brakes?

Link:
www.pinkbike.com/news/mick-hannahs-polygon-dh-bos-air-sprung-suspension-26-inch-wheels-2014.html
  • 3 1
 @Max, I agree with you a % of people couldn't fix a f_ck in a f_ck bucket, but that still leaves a whole bunch of people like myself who just found the brakes to be shit. I owned a pair of Juicy Ultimate Carbons that were perfect. A set of Elixir CR that were perfect, and maybe another five pairs that were shit no matter what i did to them.

Avid brakes are under the exact same scrutiny as any other brand, idiots ride all brands. The difference is that they made design choices that were fundamentally flawed in their products. Hell i ride SRAM carbon road wheels, they didn't even bother to offset drill the spoke holes on the rims when they launched them, that created an inexcusable stress riser where spokes used to ping every ride. The next season they offset drilled them, but what a*shole weighed up that choice- widespread spoke failure vs cost of a new drilling jig. That's a choice that speaks of accountants and marketing idiots running the show, not engineers.
  • 3 1
 i actually run avid mech disc brake on my dirt jumper and i really like it. because it isn't an avid hydraulic. whoever was looking up/stalking my profile should have caught that bit of irony.
  • 2 7
flag sherbet Plus (Mar 26, 2014 at 16:52) (Below Threshold)
 You also run a long as f*ck road seat, a tall as f*ck fork, and an XC wheelset. Looks like a hodge podge bike, and that's why I said nothing of it. Your Yeti adorned with Shimano top to bottom does really point the fanboy finger at you. Also, how is it even relevant? The only reason your bike was brought up was because you were calling people fanboys when you're the only fanboyin' up this article with hate and bullshit spam. Hypoooooocriiiiiite.

Also really like how nobody was responding to your trolling so you just kept spamming until someone does. Still going to try and convince us you're not a troll? Rolleyes

Oh, and if you can't handle being called inept when you're acting flatout inept, don't act inept? That seems pretty obvious. Sorry for calling a spade a spade, ya troll.
  • 5 2
 It's funny to me that you keep responding if you think i'm a troll. aren't you just falling for the very trap that you are accusing me of?

you're very angry and full of anxiety. seek help.
  • 1 8
flag sherbet Plus (Mar 26, 2014 at 16:56) (Below Threshold)
 So others realize what a loser you are and take the shit you're spouting off with a grain of salt. Can't handle the heat? Get out of the kitchen. In the near 20 comments you've made in this comment thread, probably only 3 or 4 have been about bikes. Kindly, for the sake of everyone involved, shuuuuuut upppppp.

Though honestly, you're right. Your shit stinks loudly enough that I'm sure everyone is seeing through you, hence not getting much love. It's a silent agreement that you're annoying as f*ck. 34 years old and still can't get on in a social situation. Pretty sad really.

Cheers. Have a good one.
  • 4 1
 For someone who went through all my pictures and then summarize my builds expecting me to feel bad about that, I'm starting to wonder who the real troll is. Are you a fanboy of me? I'm flattered
  • 3 1
 Have you ever run anything bad or lower (than competitors) quality? It is obviously your fault.

Nevertheless the discussion span out of control. I like it. The neverending battle of brands continues.

Shimano brakes- which I salute I must admit- deliver significant advantages in few departments- reliability, price vs consistency, price vs predictability and so on. There are plenty of brands that deliver amazing stoppers- Formula, Hope, etc.- and they share the same principle: they simply work. No extra terrestrial activities required, no rocket science. My XT set is almost 14 months old now- bled twice. Once after I shortened the hose 14 months ago and once about 3 months ago when the oil was simply toast. These days Shimano brakes are simple to bleed which makes it even a bigger paradox- making something so easy despite the fact that it is not even needed- that is the advantage I am talking about. They have flaws too- crappy bite point adjustment to name one- yet they still work.

Avids were always (quoting) hit and miss. In general they were a miss. They were a hit for few lucky buggers. It has nothing to do with bleeding or lack of thereof; nothing to do with neglecting them; nothing to do with a set up. They are not good brakes- yes indeed I admit I know they are developing quite promptly but they are still behind. For whatever silly reason you think it has anything to do with me as an end user- I really do not get it. I truly must be a simpleton...


SRAM makes great stuff- drivetrain is astonishing, cockpit items are smashing, droppers got defined by SRAM. They are not a bad company- they make amazing gear- just not all of it is the best. Live with it. As of my experience and bike mechanical knowledge- you would never know thus assuming that I am a cretin is not going to get you sympathy.
  • 4 2
 Sherbet: relax and learn how to take a joke. I'm not mad about anything you said to me today. I pointed out my own irony (avid mech) to try to quell your anger and show you that i'm not 100% evil like you're making me out to be. I also admitted to using sram drivetrain in an attempt to show you that i'm not one-sided - i just dont like their brakes. I suppose these did not work. it's pinkbike. it's not serious business.
  • 4 1
 Guys goto Facebook and continue. Both of you are simply off topic. Pick up your toys and roll off guys.
  • 2 2
 You're right - this is your thread. I didn't realized we had been responding to your thread until now. My apologies.
  • 1 4
 I'd rather stay here and discuss bikes, honestly, it's why I got an account on this site in the first place. It's really sad that trolls have to ruin shit for others. That being said, I think your last post summed up the majority of the feels in this. Avid makes a good, but commonly faulty product. Shimano makes a better product. 'Nuff said.
  • 3 0
 In this case let's have a cuppa and think of something else to bitch about... Bring the biscuits.
  • 1 2
 I just had fish and chips! British chips though, cause gotta do the whole package right?
  • 4 1
 hey guys you too (sherb and the cuban) account for maybe 25% of this approx 370 comment article? with just one thread? really, get a room guys.

this is the internet. remember, everyone will give their two cents, but no one really gives a f*ck about what you have to say. you can only be taken so seriously.
  • 2 1
 for the record, i already asked him out for a beer lol . and i'm asking people, please do not take me seriously, nobody should give a F what i'm saying.
  • 1 3
 Seems people do care what I say, as I'm not even allowed to state I enjoyed fish and chips without getting negative props for it. Pretty stupid that people would care, but here we are. I'll also say I added a lot of relevant and good information to this debate the entire time, while someone called me out from the background constantly. Don't really think that's a fair stick to swing at me. Ah well. My bad for telling a troll to shut up. Whistle blower seems to go down with the actual issue.

You'll also note all of my comments were basically what you're saying right now. "Talk about bikes or shut up." You're doin' the same thing as me, just you're pointing it at the wrong dude. I'd very gladly get back to the brake at any given point. f*ck, I'd be down to talk about other avid shit. I'd talk about magura brakes. I'd talk about just about most anything at this point to get this retarded troll off my back so I can get the f*ck on with it.

HELP ME?
  • 2 1
 Wow, all this over a subject like sram trail brakes... you all suck so fucking bad. go ride your bikes. god damn it. at least i have an excuse, i just rented wolf on wall street. suck my dick. jordan belfort fucking rules.
  • 4 0
 How about this: The SRAM Tech Rep was brought a brake, tried to bleed it and it still didn't work. When he asked how old the brake was and was told it was less than 3 days old and he's the 3rd person to attempt at a bleed AND it's a warranty replacement....is that still a good product or just a lemon? Seems like a lot of lemons are getting pushed out if that is in fact the case. Which in any case is terrible QC, not necessarily a shit product, but shit QC. Nobody can blame the technique used, because that person is trained in SRAM headquarters on how to bleed the brake and service the components.

If this is happening in my area...I find it extremely hard to believe my area is an isolated incident.
  • 3 0
 And comparing forks to brakes is TERRIBLE. You can't do that simply because both have fluid in them. One is based completely on weight, riding style, preferences, needs while the other can't be modified at all other than the pads. You can't use different fluid in it to change the feel or performance. Well you can, but your warranty won't be in effect, whereas with a fork, it's understood that people WILL shim it and change it to suit their needs. The brake is simply supposed to work with fluid in it. And when it doesn't work when fluid is in it is a problem. Nice try though.
  • 4 0
 Excellent comments by hamsteadbandit about Taperbore, oil volume, and dot fluid.
Does it seem my theory was correct?

m.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=154516
  • 3 0
 The saints tend to be the levers that cause problems. He bought a new pair and have been fine since. Could even use the new saints,Xt,xtr etc lever. Although I've heard the new saint lever also has problems but not the other models. I know they are different to the rest of the range in that they have an port to release air in the bladder,but some alSo loose oil at the same time. Shame they haven't sorted it yet because the idea is genius and the lever looks amazing.
  • 35 6
 "SRAM treated us to three days of riding in Moab..."

...and now I am going to write a negative review on their new stuff.
  • 6 17
flag sickdj17 (Mar 25, 2014 at 10:54) (Below Threshold)
 I dont know what your reading but that review was very positive towards the brakes..........
  • 15 0
 I don't know how you're reading the comment above yours but it should be with a heavy sarcastic tone..........
  • 2 1
 @sickdk17: Exactly.

But maybe they are now indeed better. Most problematic thing with their master cylinder design are apparently addressed, by copying the best brakes in the business. It may just work.
  • 7 0
 If they write "those brakes/wheels/grips/pedals are garbage", they risk the manufacturer pulling their advertising dollars. Just ask Bike mag. If something is crap, the review has to be written with tact. No advertising income for PB = HTTP 404.
  • 3 0
 DirtyDee - you are correct sir!
  • 5 0
 Well than. I definately didnt pick up on that sarcasm. I now feel like a retard..................
  • 2 1
 I do have to say, reviews for MTB stuff - esp. tires - are something that have so many variables, they are tough to interpret ( nevermind the advertisers' influence). There is no Consumers Report for bikes...and if there was, there is no way they can account for every rider and every condition. It is not like a dishwasher, which either works or doesn't the same for everyone. A tire that works for a rider that rides loose in Socal may be complete garbage for a finesse rider in the UK.
  • 2 0
 there's gotta be a 'sarcastic' font that we could use here in PB.
  • 1 0
 funny that you say that. on other boards we are able to modify font type, and we designated sans serif as the sarcasm font.
  • 27 0
 So it is back to a refined Juicy?
  • 11 0
 Exactly what I thought when I first saw the levers...
  • 5 0
 ^^agreed^^ that they look as though they have gone backwards in looks, but i bet they have jumped way ahead in performance!!!
  • 2 1
 I thought so too. And I'm still running some Juicy 7s. Got them for next to nothing from a friend two years ago as one hose was missing and the other was cut. Replaced the hoses, bled them and they are still fine today. Modulation isn't the best but reliability is great.
  • 1 0
 Weeks ago I found a pair of nearly brand-new Juicy Ultimate. God I love those calipers! Those are the prettiest brakes ever in my opinion! And they are working perfect!
  • 2 1
 Holy crap those things are ugly!
  • 23 4
 Always nice to see how things are getting improved by companies like sram, leading to a higher standard.
  • 11 16
flag cuban-b (Mar 25, 2014 at 10:11) (Below Threshold)
 while i support healthy competition in any industry, i would be laughing (all the way to the bank) if i were a shimano top dog right now. still doesn't touch what they have coming out next year.
  • 5 0
 And what would that be?!
  • 33 1
 650b rotors obviously
  • 13 6
 650b enduro friendly rotors I must add...
  • 5 0
 Di2 XTR? with choice of 3x , 2x or 1x and 11speed 11-40 cassette?
just guessing….
  • 21 4
 How does one know if they've attained the "elite-level" necessary to use these? Is there a test before you're allowed to purchase them?
  • 5 1
 "Hey marketing folks, we need to avoid that overhyped E-word. Ideas, anyone?"
  • 5 1
 half shell and goggles, else too slow
  • 9 1
 Avid Trail brakes are top performers, but they had issues with inconsistent pad contact and lever throw as the system heated and cooled. "Elite" level components are where nit-picks like that become important performance issues - thus the reference. The switch back to a cup-style piston and a bleed port solved that problem. TaperBore was designed to eliminate the tiny wear point that the bleed port makes on the cup seal as it slides over the hole. In the end, it seems that the extra reliability of TaperBore was offset by the more precise feel of the sliding cup system. SRAM uses an anodizing process to round the bleed port opening on Guide brakes.
  • 2 1
 With the swing link I am looking forward to testing out improved modulation and reliable power. This design looks and sounds good, I am excited to give them a shot. Those rotors are pretty slick too, hopefully they deliver quiet performance. If the reliability is there, these could be winners.
  • 1 2
 I don't know why they're releasing pro components out to the public if apparently we're not capable of noticing their current products huuuge Hayes HFX9 levels of LACK of power... but seeing that they still require more force to pull than XTR, which scientifically means they have less power still, I'm not holding out too much optimism, although I'm hoping SRAM catches up soon!
  • 1 1
 Having ridden x0 trails and hfx 9's I can safely say x0 trails do not have a huge lack of power like the hayes. I'm stoked on the slightly changed lever design, that has always been my complaint.
  • 13 1
 I wonded if they still sound like squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!
  • 9 1
 I only heard one bike making noise during test trials and it was pretty quiet. No howling monkeys - and most of us rode out with new parts which had not been secretly broken in by the staff there. All of us were running metallic pads too, which are traditionally the noisiest.
  • 6 0
 Yes, it looks like they've decided to go with stronger rotors. They probably weigh more, but imo the old style HS1 rotors were just too flimsy to resist vibration and harmonics.

Power - Precision - Control. Unfortunately, it makes me think of the old saying about "light, strong, cheap".

"SRAM brakes. Power, precision, control - pick two"
  • 3 1
 mxwhitey- I believe you mean "gobble gobble...gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble gobble"
  • 3 0
 I have had a set of elixir CR's that came stock on a specialized enduro. i fought the turkey gobble and frame vibration for almost three years. Different rotors, pads, adjusting the height, help from two different shops as well as specialized and SRAM themselves. Several fixes worked, but only temporarily. I eventually replaced the rear only, because the front works awesome, with an XT. Running an avid and a shimano on the same bike, I like them both equally. I don't think it really was the fault of the brakes themselves, but something about the caliper/frame combo was like hooking a tuning fork to my taint and stomping on bagpipes when I grabbed the rear brake.
  • 1 0
 I was looking for the RSCS model - Reach, Swing, Contact and Squeal
  • 1 1
 robwhynot- in order to find this SRAM brakeset sir, please visit us at www.shimano.com
  • 2 0
 HAHA. I've spent a lot of time on both systems and have never had a Shimano brake squeal unless it was contaminated. My juicy's on the other hand never shut up.
  • 3 0
 My XT will squeal when it is soaking wet, but it never shudders my entire frame and calls bull elk from two counties over.
  • 14 2
 Meh. I think i'll stick with shimano zee's.
  • 1 0
 Thats what I switched to
  • 3 0
 Same. Still hoping they're getting their shit together so next time I'm stuck buying a complete with sram brakes, maybe the experience won't be as unpleasant...
  • 1 0
 Agree with PLC07...spent more money bleeding them than buying my new slx's
  • 1 0
 ...
  • 11 2
 I will never buy SRAM brakes again no matter what people say. I made the mistake of buying a bike with the bullsh*t they called 'elixir 5'
  • 5 0
 You mean you will not buy Avid brakes again? Smile

Well, you would not. Cause now they are SRAM.
  • 1 1
 I think many people did Zanek012, finally gave up here and replacing them with slx
  • 1 1
 well, i wouldn't use sram brakes even if they gave the brakes for free. damn thing came with my 09 demo and it was the shitiest brakes i've ever had in my entire life even if it had carbon levers.
  • 1 0
 @Axxe It doesn't matter what they are called, they are all made by the same company (which can't make shocks and forks either)
  • 6 0
 So when they were supposed to have 'fixed' their shit brakes in the 2014 re-vamp, it took them all of how long to realize they didn't actually fix anything? Right. It's not often I hope someone gets fired for doing stupid shit, but I hope they shit-canned a bunch of junior varsity avid engineers and their entire marketing department over the '14 snafu's. I just bought a 2014 model and figured I'd give the 'new' stuff a shot, guess I'm going to have to spend another $300 to upgrade to shimano's again. It's going to be a long time before I even consider buying sram/avid brakes again.
  • 9 2
 "...specifically to serve elite-level all-mountain and trail riders" What the hell does that mean? elite-level? Get f*cked MTB marketing douches.
  • 4 4
 the intent of that statement is not calling folks out, it is simply stating the fact that elite level riders will notice small differences in brake performance, the average joe will not. If you doubt this statement, cruise your local riding spot and feel peoples brakes, at least half of them will be adjusted terribly or with some major deficiency, but the average joe will not notice that issue and will just put up with it. All they are saying here is that if you are very sensitive to brake performance, aka an elite rider, you will not be disappointed here. Shimano XTR, Formula, the others would all say the same.
  • 1 2
 What ever happend to high performance?, that description should work.
New for 2015 Elite Enduro...it's not for you. HA HA
  • 4 0
 Getting rid of taperbore is the answer to most mechanics dreams! Bubbles that you can't get rid of will sit in the reservoir out of the way! Instead of in the piston bore where they cause problems, congratulations for realising that it's been done the cup seal/timing port way for years for a reason!
Calling them Sram instead of Avid might fool some people, but if they haven't sorted the caliper seal material, they (the seals)will still need replacing after 6/12 months! Find out what material Hope use, and copy! Seals last year's and use the same fluid!
I want to like Avid/Sram brakes, when working the feel/modulation is fantastic, unfortunately the next pull usually hits the bar!
  • 2 0
 funny i had a pair of Juicy 7 in the past and i had them for 2 years and never had any issues never had seal broken nor i had bubbles, air or lack of stopping power may be Im the lucky one or i just know how to run and service my breaks Razz
  • 2 0
 Yes Juicy's were nice and a thing of the past, but have your tried their Elixer's now that is were the PROBLEMS STARTED!
  • 1 0
 it still has the same crappy bleed system.
  • 7 1
 "minor deficiencies"?

So they basically aped the Servo wave cam from Shimano.

Well, good move. Maybe now they will not suck.
  • 1 2
 They should just take the whole SLX brake and write SRAM on it. Then 'their' brakes won't suck
  • 2 0
 It also takes quality control and manufacturing processes, material suppliers, choice of hydraulic liquid, pricing levels.
  • 5 0
 Juicy's were the last good brakes from Avid. Unless Shimano fucks up really bad in the future, there is no need to use anything else. Shimano SLX is the best brake for the money hands down.
  • 9 2
 Very nice. I could see myself using those.
  • 7 0
 They needed to do something to stop the bleeding (no pun intended) from people moving to the now amazing Shimano brakes. I will give them a shot when they hit the market. Glad to see more innovation.
  • 7 9
 innovation? wtf? sh servo wave clone, 2 steps back to resevoir (jucy era).
so it first looks like to work as a DOT based shimano clone... nice.
what next? an other recall?
  • 7 1
 Power is not where modern brakes fall flat (most are plenty powerful), modulation is the real tough nut to crack along with reliable lever feel. If you can get one finger braking out of these and great repeatable modulation, that is a win. Sounds like they have their priorities straight.
  • 4 2
 One finger for sure - and they never hit hard like XTR Trail brakes often do.
  • 2 0
 What exactly does modulation mean in reference to bike brakes? Not trying to be a smart*ss, I honestly don't know.
  • 2 0
 I would say that modulation is how well (consistently?) the brakes interpret your squeeze of the lever. If you are confident that when you squeeze the brake lever a certain distance, that the brakes are going to respond in a certain way, that's part of good modulation.

Good modulation also makes it easier to anticipate the point during braking at which your tire is going to skid, rather than grip.

It can probably be partially explained by a 1:1 ratio between brake lever movement and braking force, but there is a non-objective "feel" element as well.
  • 2 0
 Modulation is the brake's ability to apply braking power in small increments based on lever squeeze. Power should correspond to how hard you are pulling the lever, as opposed to an "on or off" system. If you are applying 15% force, the brake should return 15% breaking power consistently and predictably. In theory, that is.
  • 1 0
 Thanks, makes sense now. In other words the brakes should not be a light switch but more a dimmer switch!
  • 2 0
 ^^^ Also, If I can add to the three good comments above, the release must be as seamless as it is when applying braking force. If the hoses and internal bits balloon too much, the brakes won't release smoothly and that also kills the sensitivity of the brake. Modulation is how well braking force tracks squeeze force at the lever blade - what they said.
RC
  • 7 0
 Reminds me of my old codes sitting in the parts box
  • 3 0
 The article limits its comparisons to the trail and lower riding styles: when the XO Trails were debuted, there was no hesitation to compare them to the top end Code stuff, or rather, the gravity crowd. So come on PB, how does it compare to X0 Trail and Codes? what is to become of the Trails and Codes?
  • 4 0
 SRAM says the Guide brake will be replacing XX1, X01 and X0 level AM/trail brakes. Code will remain as the DH-specific brake in the SRAM lineup. Avid will fill out the brake ranges below X0. Guide brakes kick ass on X0 Trail in feel and modulation.
  • 1 0
 And what about the Codes? Will they get this new lever for 2015? It's only logical for the SRAM guys to do so, in order for the Code model to compete with the present Saint as it is lacking power, modulation and heat management compared to Shimano's offering. Smile
  • 2 0
 Saint and good modulation is that a joke Razz ??
  • 1 1
 Someone hasn't ridden a Saint 820, i think.... Razz
  • 1 0
 I, for one, hope the codes remain unchanged. Best power/modulation/cost solution I have found thus far. Shimano is doing a great job, but only if you need more than 30% at that moment. My codes offer incredible control at "barely-there" braking levels when I need to scrub just a shade of speed for a corner entry, yet all-out power is more than adequate when needed.
  • 1 0
 HOPE!
  • 1 0
 I've got to add my experience somewhere... seems good spot here- about where they fit in the lineup and how they compare.

First, I've been a Formula fan for the last 10 or more years... this year my new Railon came with Formula T1's supposed to be the bomb. Well... if this counts I never beet my strava times on the new bike over the old bike ( Trek Scratch with K24 special editions - they were awesome brakes). So why is that I wondered...

I've got BOS front and back and couldn't get the front sorted out and the back, always was going 'pang, pang' which seemed to be the back end locking like brake jam then getting tracktion. my new bike was just not my best friend like i was hoping. And riding my old bike... just still was more comfortable. i was even going to put the k24s on them.

Just finished my first weekend with the new Guide RSC. Let me tell you. my bike is new again! And its smooth like butter on the same home trail I've been fighting.

.... did you hear that? exactly, those discs are killer quiet!! And smooth on the braking side.
And the lever feel - about perfect.
Modulation - my T1's were nervous brakes, like I couldn't imagine. I bled them three times, and a shop bled them, to try and get them "smooth" in their grab and feel.

I cleaned the very first time a techy steep switch back that I almost made with my formula's... today, perfect.

And both front and back is running so smooth! Like the BOS are famous for - today I also ran full open on a section I hadn't with the formulas since the last steep part of this section was super loose and closing with tight corners. I was skipping down that like I had a skip rope.... today?? butter.
  • 1 0
 No kidding.... I'm impressed enough to post this about how nice the weekend was with the brakes. as I mentioned, I was a formula guy for the last 4 bikes I had, and now I'm on the Guides. Sorry formula, you're R+D department should buy a few of these for the lever feel, and use the old k24's for the modulation (they were awesome in the day!).

oh, one last thing, I did cut my hoses to fit, without bleeding the levers - honestly! unscrew, snip, screw in the new thingy, put the other thingy on and re screw back together. No bleeding at all. After two days I can say I won't have to bleed them either they got pretty hot today on a 1000' downhill. And still so quiet!!

happy camper here :-) both with the brakes and my new best friend my Rallon.
  • 1 0
 none of that answers Kapricorn actually... but ha, its ok. I added apparently 150grams to my ride just by swapping brakes and rotors. Well worth it.
  • 10 4
 Save your money get the XTs the first time then you won't spend the money twice
  • 6 15
flag allix2456 (Mar 25, 2014 at 12:58) (Below Threshold)
 You're right, and a nice side effect of XT's is that they make you way faster…. by not working…. ever.
  • 4 8
flag allix2456 (Mar 25, 2014 at 13:38) (Below Threshold)
 And negative reps for the truth, ty PB, ty
  • 1 1
 My 2013 XTs work amazing.

They've never been bled, I mounted them straight out of the box. My front was a dud out of the box that was warrantied with zero questions. Ever since that I've had no issues. I do need to shorten the hoses now I've found a bar/stem setup I plan on keeping for a while. I have 400 miles on those brakes. They are unbelievably powerful, great feel, good looking and reliable.

Before that I had 2011 elixir 3s. The worked ok but they were horribly loud. Once I changed the pads to organic they were rideable but the pads were worn out within 2-3 months. They had so much lever travel when the pads were below 50% the levers would hit my grips. I ended up replacing them before they were totally worn out because of that. (it was either that, or re-bleed them and have issues with new thicker pads when they needed replacement). After I had about 150 miles on them there was so much play in the levers (up and down, the way they're not suppose to move) that I'd miss grabbing the lever occasionally after taking my finger off. They needed bushings or bearings on the pivots to prevent this.

I also boiled the fluid in my avids several times. First time I thought it was a fluke, second time I damn near went off a switchback. That was the final straw for me. (I was 200lb at the time, riding an anthem 29er). Ordered the XTs the next day.

I had much better luck with hydraulic tektros that came stock on my wifes Giant avail. We got her an anthem with the base shimanos and they're also great - much better than the avids.

I ride about 40 miles a week, 2 rides of 20 miles or so depending on how I'm feeling.
  • 7 0
 Pinkbike is full of tossers. I know, I'm one of them.
  • 4 0
 I wonder if it's worth a statistical analysis to show the difference in article author/mod follow up on SRAM product announcement threads vs their competitor product announcement threads....
  • 3 0
 Save up spend the extra change on a pair of Hope Tech 3 E4 and throw the other crap out the window for those who pillage and have no choice on what they can and can not run on their rig. Hope's are amazing, the only brakes I will run with tons of modulation, adjustment and reliability. Not on off braking of shimano (but atleast they work) or the pull to the bar squishy feel of any sram brake made in the last 5 years.
  • 3 0
 Agreed! My Hope Tech X2 (3 years no issues) and EVO M4's (18 months no issues) are amazing. No bleeding or air bubbles. If you do have to bleed them, I had to rotate a banjo, easiest brake ever to bleed. Remove a cap, open a bleeder. Like, have to be a complete idiot to get it wrong. Great modulation. No fade. Tech 3's are in the cards in a few months, if they are just that bit better, nothing will ever make me switch, ever! Speaking of Hope, notice how that NEW cam is a somewhat modified Hope setup? Bet SRAM compared Hope in the development, I know FSA did when they developed their brakes while searching for modulation.
  • 1 0
 Hope is heavy! Some people look at weight when choosing brakes. And the lever feel is not to their likings - i, for example, don't like it at all and prefer the feel of Avids, but am riding Hayes Stroker Aces and am in the process of upgrading to Saints in the near future. Smile
  • 1 0
 That's cool. I wasn't so concerned about weight, more function and easy bleeding and they are kinda rare in my neck of the woods. The lever adjustment is awesome. Had 2 pairs of Hayes and ran 2 pairs of Avids and they required something every couple months. Borrowed a pair of XT's and they were nice, but the rear needed a bleed after a winter of 60 degree days and 10 degree days. I bled them fine, but thought "Why hasn't someone made brake's that bleed like a car or moto". Tech's came out a few weeks later, watched the "How to bleed" video, bought them that day and have never regretted it. Can change the contact and reach if it's cold or warm. No bleeding or air in the lines in 3 years!! Nice to because my Cotic has matching hubs, rotors, levers, res caps. Maybe it's a good thing they aren't popular...
  • 1 0
 Been on Avids as my first brakes and they were fine, but a little weak for my big ass. Went to Aces from Hayes 2 and something years ago, since then it's been only 1 bleed for both brakes - since it's a 5euro-per-brake job, i gave them to a professional. Changed twice the pads and they are still going strong, through any conditions, all time during the year. Smile
But it's been more than 2 years already, as stated, and i would like to try some Shimanos now, to see if all the hype is true. but i need to sell my Hayeses first. Smile
  • 1 0
 In Response to "hitarpotar"
I have owned my share of avids Juicy 5's and 7's and both were Rad, I also had Codes which were also powerful and semi reliable. But then came the ELIXER'S, now if they are on your bike try this: store your bike upside down for an hour or it may only take flipping the bike over upside down, this experiment should show results of a squishy lever or a pull to the bar feel which will result in pumping or bleeding the brake system. I also agree with your argument that the brakes can be heavy, but that all depends on the brake system that you choose, I gave example of Tech 3 E4 which is a quad piston enduro/freeride brakeset. If you ride this way your first concern isn't a light part, but a part that is reliable and in this case POWERFUL. If you truly want the facts lets compare apples to apples a pair of Hope X2 Race Brakes weigh 396 Grams and a pair of Shimano XTR Race Brakes weigh 458 Grams but who's counting. Are hopes really heavier or do they just look heavier being that they are made of metal and not carbon and plastic materials. Like most things Sram puts on the market, They will allow their R&D TEAM to make a beautiful refined LOOKING PRODUCT and bring it to the market and TEST IT ON THE PUBLIC. So let's count the warranties in the first three months on the market and hope this doesnt happen again as it could be very damaging to their mountain market.Check this out if you haven't seen it already: sramroadhydraulicbrakerecall.com. Some feedback for your future purchase, Consider the hope tech 3 e4 brakes if you havent ridden them, the lever feel can be set to your liking by you easily, and if you dont like them, you will have no problem getting your money out of them when you sell them. Saints are also a great choice as are the ZEE brakeset if your looking for the quad piston setup. "HOPE" this helps and Happy Trails!
  • 1 0
 In response to you, "StreetFiend":
Well, as a matter of fact, i had a front Elixir and a rear juicy 5 for around 2 years. I assure you, they've had their fare share of being pressed to the max while the bike is parted out, in a car's trunk, without a rotor between the pads, on multiple ocasions. And yes, i had to bleed them after all... at the end of the 2 years in which they were in my posession. During all this time they've been flawless!
As for the X2 Race brakes, i am not interested in them as they are not powerfull enough for more than XC, so for me their price is unacceptable. And i am also sure they are heavier than Formula's R1s which are 270g per piece. And the newest XTR is around the 306g mark (all the examples are for front brake with 160mm rotor). Don't really know where you get your numbers from. The E4 brake is as heavy as the older quad-piston Saint and is less powerful than it, so what's left for comparing it with the new one? And i will not even comment on the V2/V4 brakes which have a really alternative heat management to Shimano's Ice Tech stuff when only coupled with the Vented rotors... which are mighty heavy, something like 300g for the rotor. Which brings the total weight of the brake system on your bike close to 1300g... :O Sorry, in my opinion 300g of a difference is substantial compared to a Saint setup.

As for the road hydraulic brakes' recall - yeah, i know. I read news - i am out of the cave now. Wink
As for lever feel - i am not sure you understood me correctly. What i meant was i don't like the shape of the lever, it is totally wrong for my hands and this makes the whole feel of the brake crappy. I don't like it, i am not comfortable with it, and therefore am not able to use it to its full potential, i cannot sqeese the lever hard enough with 1 finger only to achive the stopping power i need. It might sound stupid, but is a fact.
Happy trails! Smile
  • 1 0
 Wow you sure pulled out all the stops, (or just ran Elixer's on your bike). I figured you didnt live in a cave as you have read the up and coming brake info above from sram and probebly every other update on this Rad site, so I realize the recall is old news but it is in no way unrelated. R1's Certainly are a super light XC brake, I was just letting your know that in your first statement comparing an enduro brakeset to any of the XC brakesets on the market will prove that they are heavy, point well taken. As for the wieghts they are straight from the mouth of the BEAST, Brake weight is not measured with rotor, the factories provide you the weight of the brakes without rotor to provide you a true comparison as how they do not know what adapter or rotor you will be choosing for your setup and in some cases they dont even provide you the weight at all. Im certainly not arguing that the HOPE V series is LIGHT as you are totally correct that that system is VERY VERY Heavy, But They do work extremely well. Well The Hope Tech 3 E4 comes in at an astonishing Weight from: 266g (standard hose), 300g (braided hose) and the New SAINTS at 304g BOTH WITHOUT ROTORS. Comparing weights can be bad news as many sources get different answers, this is why many of the companies do not post their weights on their websites such as Shimano, My information on weights came from HOPETECH website and BIKERUMOR.com Both very trusted sources. So what are your trails like? Conditions etc...
  • 1 0
 Had the Elixir and Juicy on my bike, and then the Hayes Stroker Aces currently on the rig - 2 years and counting, super reliable. Smile The Hope and Shimanos i've tried on friends' bikes on trails - Hope i don't like at all, old Shimanos are no go, new Shimanos were love at first... errr, feel. Big Grin
I always compare same class brakes, not different. And am not interested in XC-brakes as my ass is heavy! Big Grin
And all the brakes i read about are stated as complete set for a front brake, 160mm IS mount and 160mm rotor. Saint may look heavier than Hope according to your post, but it has the finned pads which are a major strenght in the brake-game. Only thing that can compare with it (with a Hope brand on it) is the vented rotor. Which is around 100g more than a Shimano rotor. For 2 brakes - 200g. Smile
As for the other stuff - yeah, i don't put the weight as a number one factor when buying brakes. i look for the lever feel, the durability, the power. Guess a total weight of 1kg for the whole brakeset is enough. But this is absolutely enough! Smile not more.
  • 4 1
 Sram is naming more products under its name instead of Avid and Truvativ. Can I understand this as they want to make Sram a more comprehensive and systematic high-end brand, leaving Avid and Truvativ more entry level?
  • 3 1
 correct me if I'm wrong, but, a lot of SRAMs absolute high end stuff is branded as SRAM rather than Truvativ/Avid. Look at the Carbon X0 Cranks for example

I don't know why, they just do
  • 3 0
 Consistency in branding recognition for photos (elite level racing).
  • 1 1
 I rattled through their website after posted that and found Truvativ logo on X0 crankset. But every time when it comes to X0 or X9 or XX, the first brand name comes into my mind would be SRAM.
  • 2 0
 Its fun to hate the evil megacorperation that needs to please its stock holders. But bigger reservoirs make for a longer lasting brake. I dont question RC if he says these brakes have the same power as xtr brakes they probably do! Sherbet makes a good point. From the factory many Sram brakes are improperly bled,do not the proper amount of fluid. Explains my mistrust for Sram brakes. I run Shimano and Sram brakes. Properly bled they both work great!
  • 2 0
 AH CRAP I am agreeing with Richard Cunningham. CRAP. I have Elixir 5's and have had them for over 3 years. They have only ever once felt like they were fading. I kept them bled and never had an issue with them and I am 235lbs. Nowadays I split time now between two bikes one equipped with Shimano XT (almost 2 years on them) and the other using Avid. I like the looks of these and by the time I am truly looking for something new I will know the quality of these.
  • 6 1
 Those rotors look the dog's nads!
  • 2 1
 Looks like some great brakes. I have been running my elixir 5 rear only on my dirtjump rig for over 2 years now and it still works perefectly fine. On a side I don't quite understand why the brakes are now made by sram not avid. Also they may work very well but the lever and especially the disk looks like shit. Just my opinion though.
  • 5 0
 Did Sram get rid of Elixirs? Its not on their website anymore
  • 3 0
 Seems so. That's a real shame. Despite people's negative reviews, they were awesome performing brakes, I love my elixir 9's. Aesthetically, they were light years ahead of this seemingly evolved juicy lever design.
  • 7 4
 Notice how SRAM always has a article on PB that says they have improved stuff and Shimano doesn't? It's because Shimano breaks are about as perfect as it gets.
  • 5 1
 Power, Precision and Control... Till next week, where they will need bleeding yet again...
  • 6 1
 SRAM unveils new brake, they promise this one works...
  • 2 0
 ill be getting a pair of those... not happy with my slx..they've been bled more times than my old elixir 3's and they still pump up..not to mention I have to run 200mm rotors front and rear on an AM bike..
  • 2 0
 Shimano brakes are reliable but far from perfect. Shimano Ice-Tec rotors have distorted for me worse than Avids G3 and G3's weren't great. Perhaps the extra spokes on 'Centreline' rotors might be a good idea.........
  • 4 1
 Look like... Juicy. I wonder if MTB marketing gurus will admit the same "minor deficiencies" of 27,5" some day and come back to good old 26"?
  • 1 0
 I've been riding mountain bikes since the Eighties... before wheel size was a point of conversation and before brakes actually worked! Since brakes did start to work properly (i.e. disc brakes) I've used Hope, Shimano XTR / Saint and Avid XO (not by choice - they were on a new build bike). The XO feel was very 'modulated' compared to the saint I had before, but still very powerful so decided to give them a go. The only problem I've had is reliability. XO brakes have let me down 3 times in around a year (with spongyness, and the eventual lever back to the bar experience).

I'm getting a pair of saints again and selling the XO's on Ebay. SRAM will have to do a lot to win me over.... why risk it? Shimano all the way.
  • 1 0
 I just purchased the latest Shimano SLX, because I didn't want to risk it with Avid, although I have owned Juicy 5 and Elixir R Carbon, which did not fault me in any way. But, as I started building a whole new bike from scratch, I went for sure with Shimano. The SLX brakes are perfomance monsters, they handle pretty great, having in mind, I am not a good rider so I tend to use brakes quite a lot. Unless I am on a downhill WC track, I do not see the need for more powerful or "better"brakes.
If Avid come up with better working Exlixir 5's and decent Codes, I might reconsider my choice, as they are good at making bling bling Smile For now, SLX for me, thank you.
  • 1 0
 Been working in bike shops for years and avid is a bi-word for rubbish brakes (throughout the range) customers do nothing but moan, the new sram brakes look over complicated to me just like the taperbore design, We never see bike coming back with Shimano hydraulic problems. There's lots of brake options out there but most mid-range bikes come wtih sram/avid. Time will tell.
  • 1 0
 They have done something intelligent from the marketing perspective...by imitating the colours of Shimano in their top model (shiny silver), it will be more difficult for us consumers to tell when watching the videos here or the WC on RedBull TV if the rider is using Shimano or Sram brakes. Clever copycats Smile
  • 1 0
 And dropping the distinctive look of the HS1/HSX rotors.
  • 1 0
 "the brains there designed a more flexible butyl separator-membrane in the reservoir cap"

That is good news right there. I was in danger of running out of fingers and toes to count how many times I had "issues" with some of the plastic elements found in previous Avid brakes from a few years back, leading to lever overhauls.
  • 2 0
 I ride fast, brake hard and my Avids have never let me down. I run them in all my bikes. Have I just been lucky? Can't imagine. Why all the haters? Don't you trust the word of the PB testers? Open your mind.
  • 1 0
 Well this is a really fun discussion. I have really good experience with Avid brakes i have avid 3 and now code r 2014. I hade a chance to run also shimano deore and shimano XT. All the brakes are good Shimano XT its really nice i like this sandwich rotors i am sure they will not heat up to much . But i am really sorry Code R stops like there is no tomorrow. They allow me to go down really fast and stop late because they have way more stopping power. 4 piston brakes are the way to go . I am sure that this new brakes are also going to be nice.
  • 1 0
 I have a set of sram guide rs brakes that came stock on my new Demo 8 II As soon as I got home, spotted a leak. I believe there is a factory defect on many of these. I thought it was a little strange when SRAM said they would exchange the defective unit without even asking to see it. It's like if they were expecting my call. My Elixers have worked great but these seem like crap. The one good thing I can say about these is that they will make you a much faster downhiller. That's because they will not slow you down. #they don't work #can't stop
Love the SRAM drivetrains. Love the Rock Shox forks.
  • 8 6
 Personally, I always had trouble with Shimano brakes (except for Saint). I always had good time with newer Avid products (2011 x0 and later). Both brands are good anyways...
  • 3 1
 I also had some XTRs and only had issues with them, then the XTR enduro brakes came out and some were mounted at my new bike and again I only had trouble ( I have never ridden saints ). I never had problems with my juicy and all other Avid brakes including Code and multiple Elixier. Maybe I was lucky or the Shimano fanboys don´t want to admit, that also Shimano brakes can have issues and Avid brakes can function.
  • 1 0
 I think while both brakes can have their flaws, SO many more Avids/SRAMs have had trouble with their systems.
  • 3 0
 good for the cup-seal, but look like a tektro auriga...
and now x0 trail are outdated, or what?
  • 3 1
 do the seals dissolve in brake DOT fluid? Do you need to buy a $50 bleed kit that actually wears out because you need it use it so often?

early adopters beware
  • 7 5
 Avid = avoid. 2 months use and they were sucking air. After one year seals were dissolved and dot fluid was coming out of pistons and levers. Bleeding them every 3 weeks with that expensive bleed kit, until i got a set of XTs. XT = 1 bleed after cutting hoses, 1 year - still solid performance. And at half the price as the Avid Elixir CR.
  • 4 0
 yea but do they still squeal
  • 4 1
 Interested to see long term test vs XTR/Saint/Zee. Shimano seems unstoppable as of late though.
  • 1 0
 Not bad.. but those SRAM grips are absolutely this worst grips I've ever tried. SRAM components are really hit or miss. I recommend Shimano Zee s cheap, awesome, powerful, and yes light enough for all mtn.
  • 1 0
 Hey RC.. The reservoir lever length seems pretty long?? Can you post pics of them used with fingers??Alo the new lever design pulls the mount bracket way more inbound. How does this give with trigger/Reverb switch?
  • 1 0
 Reminds me of the vintage dual control Shimano systems.. those were 8" long! lol
  • 1 1
 I was using Elixir 5 (1st gen) for past few years and after upgrading them with Hel Performance cables (which are no longer produced...) they were really good despite their flaws ie loose brake levers. Until the moment when one brake lever started to occasionaly suck air inside the system and it turns out that there was no resonable way to buy repair kit or brake lever itself. I was really pissed of ended with Shimanos Saint/Zee mix with Unex cables. The difference between Avid and Shimano is that you can buy complete brake lever (Zee) with price of Avid repair kit which you can't actually buy anywhere.

Next thing is Avid Bleed Kit which is extremely expensive compared to syringe with 15cm o tube and a funnel.

Don't get me wrong: Elixirs were really enjoyable but lack of spare parts ruins everything so now I'm Shimano again Smile
  • 2 2
 All of my friends have Avid and I ride Shimano XT. More often than not, I get down the hill faster than them. Who's brakes are better? Because of thumb problems I have gripshift and the new XT levers don't have enough room between for even 1 finger braking. I have the original XT's and still going strong. 4 piston love.
  • 2 0
 Shimano shorty lever reigns supreme!!! Looks like SRAM is trying to get there.... and don't call it the Avid Guide, hahahha.
  • 1 0
 The ball is already for some time in Shimano's court, though it took some time for Sram to recognize that you have to "borrow" the design of Shimano's brakes eventually.
  • 3 0
 Funniest comment I have heard in a while: "And by "SRAM Engineering" they really mean "SRAM Marketing" ..."
  • 1 0
 I like the 2010+ Avid Codes, but it look s like they had some left over parts from the 2007 Avid Codes master and mashed together with their 2012 Avid Trail Brake calipers...why the step back on Avids?
  • 2 1
 The sad part is that the cheapest hydraulic shimano disc brake could destroy this sram brake, its amazing how much sram products suck in performance and reliablility when compared to shimano
  • 1 1
 IT'S A TRICK! DON'T FALL FOR IT!
THEY ARE AVIDS!!!!
They won't work, condesending idiots will teel you it's your fault for not knowing how to service them (every other ride...), they will fail at the worst time and their life span will be measured in months. Oh, and they look AWFUL.
Seriously, do not buy this crap, you'll only encourage them to make more.
  • 3 0
 Avid breaks are good, just do good bleeding and right Setups and works very well.
  • 1 0
 While I do like the stopping power Shimano brakes for me feel like pulling on a light switch...click...on or off. I'll take the 10 minutes to bleed my Avids a few times a year to get that nice lever feel.
  • 1 0
 I have been riding Guides for two weeks and must say that they are powerful and silent. They are a bit heavier than Shimano, but have great modulation and perform very well.
  • 23 20
 Shimano Zee cheaper and better. Never ever Avid/Sram brakes!
  • 12 5
 So you've ridden the Guide brakes? How do you know that Zee's are better?
  • 6 13
flag cuban-b (Mar 25, 2014 at 10:08) (Below Threshold)
 his point is "i currently own shimano brakes so why should i try anything else." he's getting neg prop'd because people know he's 100% correct.
  • 7 4
 yeah, I am going to guess that you are just one more internet troll who knows nothing of this new brake system.
  • 3 4
 Totally agree.David is a rubbish.
  • 4 9
flag cuban-b (Mar 25, 2014 at 10:13) (Below Threshold)
 troll? just stating an opinion. if you want to call him or me a troll for preferring one company over another (due to experience, historical reputation, and past products), that just makes you look like a bitch.
  • 4 3
 Well, in fairness, they likely are Smile
  • 8 5
 cuban-b, are you 8 years old?

Why dont all of you "super experienced mountain biker keyboard jockeys" save the commentary about which is better until you try the brakes. Yes, you can go off of previous experiences of yours, but state it as such. "I tried juicy 7's 6 years ago and they didnt work as well as the shimano Zees". That is a worthwhile opinion.

"I have never seen or tried these brakes but Shimano Zee's are better" - that is a worthless piece of internet garbage.
  • 4 6
 The answer is very simply my friend. My experience with disc brakes is about 15 years and I had many various disc brakes: Grimeca, Shimano, Avid, Magura, Formula... I never had any problems with Shimano brakes, even cheap Deore 10 years old are better... So dont tell me about my experience again. Second thing is price and Avid/Sram brakes never beat Shimano quality, price and reliability!!! This is my opinion.
  • 3 2
 wow people take this stuff really seriously. i apologize for judging sram brakes based on past experience. is that better now?
  • 2 2
 cuban-b. Do not pay attention to kids around here.
  • 3 2
 kids neg propping makes me feel sad Frown that is their goal is it not? its funny because 50% of the comments are bashing sram brakes and we're focusing on this guy's post.
  • 3 2
 The others are saying that previous SRAM/Avid brakes are bad and that is a valid opinion to have. However, you can't say that Zee's are better than Guide's since I'm sure he hasn't tried them.

You guys are like my kids. "How do you know you don't like mushrooms?" "Because I've never tried them."
  • 2 4
 That's all well and good and yeah I agree you can't say you don't like mushrooms if you haven't tried (they are delicious) BUT .... Avid keeps saying this stuff "we fixed the issues of previous design" and yet, each time there are these imo unforgivable issues. I have not tried the new XO trail, everyone has been saying they are quite good, but I have had a poor experience with 2011 MY Codes that has put me firmly in the Shimano camp for brakes. It would take a lot to get me to buy Avid brakes again, maybe these are the answer maybe not but you can't blame me for not trusting Avid marketing claims at this point.
  • 1 2
 Everyone needs to stop spewing hate and negativity on peoples preferences in product especially when they haven't even tried the alliterative. Shimano Fanboys: No one is telling you to buy Sram brakes so settle down. Sram Fanboys: Shimano fans haves their reasons to hate but keep in mind it is likely not a single person writing negative comments on this post has ridden the Sram Guides yet. When a new product is released from any company skeptics arise, but ultimately if a product is legit it will speak for its self and oh wait it did...http://www.pinkbike.com/news/pinkbike-awards-product-of-the-year-nominees.html. Not here to troll people just need to put things into perspective, its good Shimano has this competition, it forces them to innovate unlike before Sram entered the world and Shimano controlled near 90% of the bicycle component market and sat on their ass. There is no war between Shimano and Sram, you all create it, they are vasty different companies with very different views on innovation, marketing, design, ect. The bottom line is that we as riders are all better off with two major component producers as opposed to one.
  • 1 1
 What is important is searching for the truth on the internet.
  • 6 3
 All rotors should look like Hope Saw rotors for extra badass points
  • 4 2
 This looks awesome! Sram has definitely been putting out a lot of nice new gear for the 2013/2014 season Smile
  • 4 1
 still using that stupid CPS hardware though
  • 3 0
 Thank God, CPS are gone with the new 4 pots brakes. Looks like they used the top washers on their giant test bike for some reason, but they are no longer needed and are not spec with the brakes. They were not such a bad idea from an engineering point of view, but they made it a lot easier to mess up the caliper alignment if you did not know what you were doing. I think a lot of the avid hate comes from poor installation, and then people blame the brakes.
  • 5 3
 Wow SRAM is on a roll! XX1, Pike, now brakes. Looks like bike companies can spec almost spec full SRAM with no compromise.
  • 5 0
 Don't forget the Reverb...
  • 3 0
 The biggest issue with new bikes that come with the Pike, XX1/X01 and a Reverb is the brakes. I'm looking for a complete new bike for next year. If these brakes prove out well then it'll be that much simpler to get a complete bike with a complete spec.
  • 3 2
 All I see is sram being shimanized here, lever looks just like shimano range ( ok a little imagination needed, not mucho tho!)
  • 3 0
 I like em but xtr look sooo much more bling
  • 2 1
 so, it's like sram invented "servo-wave" inside these levers??? looks too damn familiar to the current shimano levers with the resemblense to the old Code levers
  • 2 0
 I have the x0 trail brakes and love them.. these puppies must be great. A little sad my current stuff is going outdated :/
  • 4 4
 So it took nearly 15 years for SRAM to come up with a brake which might be half as good as the Shimano M755 XT?
And it's been how many years since Hope came out with the Mono M4?

Better late than never I suppose...
  • 2 0
 Looks like the shorter lever is going to push the shifters too close to the grips, especially for us middle-finger brakers.
  • 1 0
 Im going to miss the old ones. My elixirs have worked faultlessly for over 1500km of abuse and that way more than any other brake has lasted me.
  • 3 0
 New rotors? Will this stop the orgasmic turkey squeal! Please say yes!
  • 3 0
 ive used avid brakes for years , never had any bother
  • 3 1
 If they're as good as sram/avid brakes usually are...


Then stick with your Hopes or Shimano's!
  • 2 0
 Did a quick read and maybe I missed it, but are these replacing the Trails altogether???
  • 1 0
 so basicly avid brakes are still crap. these are sram... lets see what reputation they get (i know they are the same owner/company)
  • 2 0
 I think they will kick ass! Avid brakes are the shit in terms of how they feel, when they're working
  • 2 1
 Avid releases yet another pos production. . Shimanos for life.. they are miles and tears ahead and dont fail I horrible ways.. avid you are crap
  • 2 0
 I'm one of the few who loves and has loved avids for years. Looking forward to trying these ones, they look sweet.
  • 4 1
 Owned both....will always go for shimano....avid is a nightmate
  • 1 1
 LOL i bet the funny thing is...when they warranty my Trail XO's again...for the 4th time in 1 year..I bet they will offer to send something a bit better, hopefully they fixed all the problems.
  • 1 0
 Hope Tech inspired rocker link? Thought it was innovative... It's a reworked knock off. Never match Hope's quality or performance though.
  • 3 1
 More bullshit spin about another bullshit product. Pinkbike get your hand off it.
  • 1 1
 I have ridden all 3 of the big mtb disc brake manufacturers, Shimano, Hayes and SRAM and had great luck with all three. Am now on some SLX's with SRAM rotors, must say lever feel and one finger braking is nice
  • 1 0
 I never understand all the hate on SRAM brakes, some people must like them/ Love them. I personally love mine and have never had a problem with mine to date.
  • 1 0
 Avid are crap on so many levels, Shimano are good but aggressive, I'm for Hope, nice and progressive, a bit dated, tons of bits you can easily replace, last ages, bomb proof.
  • 3 1
 We'll wait and see if they last any better than their road brakes...
  • 5 3
 This is getting interesting... Sram offensive continues! sa sa sa sa sa
  • 7 2
 Yeah the first one was against their own customers with their previous brakes... Who's next?
  • 3 2
 Mneh, the latest levers were quite good. I have Elixirs 5 and they are cool. I also have XTs from 2008 and from 2011 which I think are whatever. Saints are hands diwn the best brakes I have ever tried, but other than that, Shimano does not look as good to me as many people ejaculate about it. Niw I have Formulas R1s, we'll se how they go
  • 2 0
 Just got Formula RO. Love them, bit these things are very much a question of taste. The combination of power, modulation and lever pivot position simply suit me. Plus they are gorgeous, which does not hurt.
  • 1 0
 +1 for RO's but don't tell anyone. it's a secret unfair advantage
  • 3 1
 Looks like a Tektro brake
  • 1 3
 The rotor is also ugly as hell very Xingling look
  • 4 1
 Wel love SRAM
  • 3 0
 Give me a brake!
  • 1 0
 Hmmmm I'd like to see a long term test on them to see how they fair. I like the look of em though....
  • 3 0
 Please give up avid.
  • 1 0
 lol! likeBig Grin
  • 2 0
 Eh brakes just low you down. Who needs em Razz lol jk
  • 2 0
 new DH brakes announcement in 3 .....2.....1.....
  • 2 0
 I'm pretty sure that we will see a dw linkage in brake lever soon....
  • 1 0
 Same stuff, same Tektro sweatshop, same hit and miss quality. 3 more thingies on our bikes and finally Sramano-free.
  • 2 0
 I like eye contact when someone wants to sell/explain me something.
  • 1 1
 while everybody worries about their breaks i will be smashing threw the bushes passing you or going braaap!!! and buzzing your tires all while not using my brakes hahaha!
  • 2 0
 As long as my brakes are not avid 5's again I am good.
  • 2 0
 looks like a old code lever
  • 2 1
 They should have called them Enduro, not Guide. I probably would have bought some then.
  • 1 0
 had juicy3's for years and NEVER bleed them. just make those again but with a hair more power.
  • 1 0
 Not sure if someone posted this or not... But the mc looks like a sideways shimano brake. Anyone else agree?
  • 2 0
 We used Shimano brakes as a guide.
  • 3 0
 God they look awful.
  • 1 0
 So when is a decent DH brake coming? Or does that market not exist anymore to the enduro-hive-mind?
  • 1 0
 I like these a lot. They look sweet. I wonder if they can be run for DH? And why are they branded as Sram and not Avid?
  • 2 0
 Is it just me or do these brakes look a lot like 2006 Juicy????
  • 2 1
 Is the MSRP for both together?
  • 3 0
 one side only^^^
  • 6 1
 If that's for the lowest range, they are loosing it to their direct competitor, Zee. Because a pair of Zee's with rotors and adaptors are 240eur, compared to a single side for 180 eur.
  • 3 0
 Shimano, who makes the zee. And yea shimano zee are awesome brakes.
  • 2 1
 Great...Now we have another set of SRAm squealers to deal with...
  • 2 0
 look like really good
  • 1 0
 Wow a rubber bladder for a mtb disc brake who woulda thunk it.
  • 1 0
 It's like avid and shimano levers made babies, looks sweet though
  • 1 1
 Dear Sram please stop making another Avid brake we all know they are crap. Sincerelly all Shimano users and Avid users
  • 1 0
 Well its final. SLX or XT to replace the old avids.
  • 1 0
 What does the "T" in the bolts mean?
  • 2 0
 Terrible.
  • 1 0
 Tight
  • 1 0
 twerk?
  • 3 0
 Wont t'work (Yorkshire accent)
  • 1 0
 saint is still the way to go tho Big Grin
  • 1 0
 Good for me as the shops will sell their elixir trail models for cheap. Smile
  • 1 1
 Brand new Sram ad for brand new brakes:

''Because one full brake recall wasn’t enough!''

Big Grin
  • 1 0
 Well, don't these rotors just look... old?
  • 1 0
 OOOOOOH they brought back the old codes...LEGENDS!
  • 1 0
 Used these on the new Nomad, there pure shite and feel like a sponge.
  • 1 0
 warble
  • 1 0
 Shimano FTW
  • 1 1
 i like avid's e9 .it is very strong.
  • 1 0
 Codes for life
  • 1 0
 Looks real nice Razz
  • 6 7
 another marketing crock - well done SRAM
  • 7 5
 Oh you have ridden these new brakes? Wow, you must be a big deal, please tell us about your experiences!

If not, save your worthless opinion. Pinkbike is full of trolls, they don't need any more.
  • 1 2
 ^ LOL
  • 2 0
 Neverlost go change your tampon
  • 1 1
 edward (enduro) snowden
  • 2 5
 why oh why do companies bother competing with formula and shimano in the mtb brakes market??
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