First Ride: Revel's Recyclable, American-made RW30 Fusion-Fiber Wheels

Feb 27, 2020
by Daniel Sapp  



Last year, we looked into Revel Bikes, at that time a new company started by a few industry veterans. Following the launch of two trail bikes, Revel has now released a 100% recyclable and US-made carbon rim that's manufactured in a much different way than traditional carbon bike parts. Revel is calling this method "Fusion-Fiber" technology, and it was developed by an aerospace facility in southern Utah.

Revel's founder, Adam Miller, met Joe Stanish of CSS Composites back in 2010 when Stanish was still VP of Operations at ENVE, but it wasn't until last year that things came together. In 2019, Joe approached Revel with the idea of utilizing a new material that was being developed at CSS Composites that he claimed was stronger, lighter, more cost-effective, could be made in America, and is 100% recyclable. Stanish wanted to partner with Revel to introduce the first bicycle rims made of this material, and Fusion-Fiber was born.
Revel RW30 Details

• Intended use: All-mountain / enduro
• Double-wall Fusion Fiber rim
• 28 hole, 3-cross lacing
• 35mm external, 29mm internal width
• Hub: Industry Nine Hydra, 690 P.O.E.
• Weight: 1,840-grams (29") / 1,730-grams (27.5")
• Rims available individually, 28/32h ($700)
• Laid up and molded in Gunnison, Utah, USA
• Lifetime warranty
• Price: $2,200 USD / $700 rim only
www.revelbikes.com

bigquotesWhat really got my attention was that the material was 100% recyclable.Adam Miller

On the surface, the rims don't look all that different than any others out there. They're made with the same material as a traditional thermoset carbon rim, but a second glance shows that the material is quite different: The epoxy used in a thermoset rim is absent, and the binding agent in its place is an advanced polymer; picture nylon holding the strands of carbon together.

The rims are available as a wheelset with either Industry Nine's 101 or Hydra hubs in both 27.5" and 29" versions, and also as a rim-only in 28 or 32 hole drilling patterns. The wheels I'm testing are the 29" version on Industry Nine's Hydra hubs, weigh 1,840-grams on my scale, and sell for $2,200 USD. Going with the 101 hubs will lose you a little bit of engagement and $300 from the price, or you can pick up a bare rim for $700.

Revel spec's their wheelsets with I9's hubs and Sapim spokes.


Thermoset vs Thermoplastic

Before we discuss the rims themselves, let's look at the basic differences in thermoset and thermoplastic materials. Put simply, both utilize the same fibers but a very different glue.

Thermoset materials include nearly everything you can think of that we traditionally call carbon fiber. That goes for frames, rims, and other components. The process for making a thermoset product involves taking sheets of carbon fiber which, in this case, are held together with a two-stage epoxy that acts as the matrix (AKA glue). The fibers are laid down into the mold, epoxy is added to the equation, and then it's cooked. Once cured, the carbon is set and cannot be changed, which is where the name "thermoset" comes from. Thermoset carbon has a finite shelf life and must be kept at certain temperatures, usually in a refrigerator, before use in laying up a product and adding the epoxy.

Thermoplastics also use strands of carbon, but the way that they're laid up is different. The fibers start similar to a thermoset carbon, as a raw unidirectional tape, but are then turned into a thermoplastic by using a polymer to act as the matrix (glue) and hold things together. There are also various advanced polymer recipes that can be used depending on the application. The polymer-based glue can be melted back down into a liquid state and formed or recycled into other products as many times as desired. Thermoplastics are typically less brittle, more ductile, and more flexible than epoxies. There are countless uses outside of bike products; for instance, airplanes utilize thermoplastics in various components. Thermoplastic carbon is stable and has an infinite shelf life, and it doesn't need to be refrigerated before final construction to maintain its integrity.

Anything that is currently made of traditional thermoset carbon fiber could be made with a thermoplastic, but the cost and availability of equipment to produce products have been the biggest limiting factor.

On the right is a sheet of the raw unidirectional material. On the left is that material once it is stamped into a 6-layer consolidated panel.


Fusion-Fiber Rims

Fusion-Fiber is a product used by Revel for their rims, much like how Gore-Tex is used and licensed by many different companies to make various products. Revel's Fusion-Fiber thermoplastic rims are constructed in a very similar fashion to a traditional thermoset rim as far as laying up carbon goes. There are fibers laid out in various directions that are then stamped into a bias-ply sheet, similar to how you would stamp and form metal. The difference is that Revel is using a robot instead of laying things up by hand, thereby removing the variability of human error. The machine can also put down one layer per second.

The materials are then fused together with Fusion-Fiber, whereas traditional thermoset components are epoxied and cured. This means that there is no material waste or burn-off in the process, and unused fibers can be chopped up and remolded. There are also no added chemicals. The Fusion-Fiber layers are flash-welded together with electricity, a process that takes between twenty and sixty seconds.

The process of using the Fusion-Fiber sheets for manufacturing the rim is something Revel isn't keen on sharing with the world, but the basic (and over-simplified) process involves pieces of thermoplastic put into the mold and flash-welded into a rim. The rim then goes through three different heating and cooling steps, and requires no sanding, clear coat, or paint when it pops out of the mold.


The Fusion-Fiber rims are constructed in a similar manner to traditional thermoset carbon but with a different matrix, or glue, holding things together.


Recyclability

One of the notable drawbacks to traditional thermoset carbon fiber is excess or damaged products are difficult to recycle - when a thermoset frame or rim reaches the end of its life cycle, it's typically trash. While it can be done in some cases, it's said to be not as cost-effective as starting from scratch, which leads to a lot of waste. There are also hazardous byproducts produced in the manufacturing process.

Being a thermoplastic, Fusion-Fiber is claimed to be easily recycled. CSS, the company that makes Fusion-Fiber, can recycle it themselves by chopping it up into smaller pieces and melting it down to form parts that use short fibers, like stems and other small components. Everything is said to be easily and infinitely re-moldable into something else, whether it's in the bike industry or elsewhere.

Joe Stanish, COO of CSS claims they have full control over the recycling process of the material. They say this allows them to know exactly what they're getting, and that it's of much higher quality than mass-recycled plastics that can have all sorts of variances in them.

Recyclability is a theme with the thermoplastic design.


RW30 Wheels

My test wheels are the RW30s, the only model that's currently offered, but Revel will have different options in the future.

Thermoplastics are claimed to offer some differences in ride quality that can be seen as advantages. The material handles impacts somewhat differently by giving what Revel and CSS claim to be over 50% more vertical deflection in impacts without sacrificing any lateral stiffness. If true, they should offer a stiff but not harsh ride quality. With a thermoset rim, it's difficult to design the wheel in a way that allows more vertical compliance without sacrificing lateral stability - it's inherent in the way the epoxies harden.

According to Revel, the polymer in the thermoplastic flexes in a smaller region for a given impact, whereas almost a third of the wheel flexes with a thermoset rim for the same impact. That's said to help with the stability while also offering that vertical compliance, as well as being quiet and durable in the case of rock strikes.

Revel and CSS didn't stray too far from convention with the RW30 wheels, going with a standard double-wall design rim that they say offers an excellent ride quality when paired with the Fusion-Fiber. The internal rim width of the RW30 is 29mm and aimed at aggressive trail and enduro riding.

All of the rims are covered by a lifetime warranty that includes Revel paying for shipping and handling should anything happen. It also covers getting a loaner set while your new wheels are built up and the old rims are recycled.


The rims use a traditional double-wall design but coming out of the mold, there is little work to be done as they don't need paint, clearcoat, or anything else.



First Impressions

I've only had the RW30 wheels out on a couple of short rides at this point. Mounting up tires was straight forward, and I had zero issues airing up with a standard floor pump. In my time on the trail, I can confirm that they deliver in terms of stiffness and compliance, and I've had zero issues with anything otherwise. The wheels do seem to do a good job of damping trail chatter, especially at high speeds, and there is something unique about the way they ride compared to other carbon wheels that I've been on.

Long-term use is yet to be seen, but we'll provide an update once I put a lot more miles on them.






362 Comments

  • 434 78
 Recycling is and has always been a scam. The only way to be better to the planet is to keep things longer and buy less. Trading in a perfectly functioning older car to buy a Prius is not environmentally responsible to anyone but a marketer. And the same applies here.
  • 34 75
flag RoadStain (Feb 27, 2020 at 4:38) (Below Threshold)
 Oh, you and all your facts.......you see the TopGear video on the BMW M3 -vs- Pious? Classic.
  • 107 43
 I’m sure this rim *could* be recycled, but I would like to know how. I highly doubt my local trash man is versed in carbon thermoplastics, or cares. ...Into the dump it goes.
  • 140 3
 @ninjatarian: “ Joe Stanish, COO of CSS claims they have full control over the recycling process of the material. They say this allows them to know exactly what they're getting, and that it's of much higher quality than mass-recycled plastics that can have all sorts of variances in them.”

“All of the rims are covered by a lifetime warranty that includes Revel paying for shipping and handling should anything happen. It also covers getting a loaner set while your new wheels are built up and the old rims are recycled.“
  • 102 1
 @ninjatarian: why would you put them in your trash can? Lifetime warranty and Revel pays for shipping both ways so they can recycle the rim for you.
  • 32 2
 Who would you sell a cracked carbon rim? Recycling is just another step after reuse. Some things can be easily reused, some do not, but everything should be recyclable.
  • 29 20
 Lifetime warranties don’t cover everything forever; there will be plenty people who’s cases and crashes aren’t covered, and will move on to something else and don’t send them back. For those who do send them back, I hope the company sticks around for 10,000 years to keep recycling the same product.

Inevitably, they will all still end up in a dump once some new technology comes along.
  • 15 0
 @Paddock22: Same reason that just yesterday I saw a shop cut the headtube off of a Trek Fuel.....Lifetime warranty frame is on the way in. Broken frame is on the way to an eventual archeological dig in a landfill.
  • 43 5
 In this instance, it mostly means less manufacturing waste. I think this is a game changer.
  • 57 15
 this is truth right here, i laugh at people who dream of owning a Tesla for environmental reasons. hell, that 98 corolla is the most environmental car ever produced on a true scale.
  • 33 0
 Although this is true, people will inevitably buy/upgrade to new things. And when they do, there are certain options that will be more environmentally friendly than others
  • 13 2
 @RoadStain: as I read it, you send your broken wheels back to Revel and they replace/recycle.

Companies that don’t recycle don’t need you send their broken product back.
  • 32 6
 @Paddock22: Can I complain about the environmental impact of the shipping?
  • 23 7
 But then how would capitalism and consumerism work? How are the multinational conglomerates supposed to make money if they don't plan for limited life cycles and planned obsolescence? How will the CEOs be able to afford their 4th summer home?
  • 9 0
 I wish we knew more details, although obviously they need to keep their manufacturing secret. Most recycling is a scam, but I can see this actually being real. Normal carbon fiber, because its glued up with essentially an epoxy, is worthless as trimmings or as broken pieces. This stuff, if the propaganda is true, is just in plastic that can be melted down to get the fibers out. Plastic is never worth recycling, but some things like aluminum and easily recoverable carbon fiber actually is.
  • 3 1
 @Lewis-pick: yes i agree, but there is a serious lack of effort in regards to reverse compatibility with new products.
  • 4 0
 @matadorCE: Only four? I would fire the CEO for not thinking bigger (seriously)
  • 9 0
 @RoadStain: Yes, it's a valid argument that recycling the carbon fiber doesn't offset the impact that shipping back and forth would have on the environment but that would probably depend on many different factors.

I would imagine the dream scenario from Revel here is: During manufacturing, we (they) are able to recycle more manufacturing byproducts than any other carbon wheel manufacturer. These wheels are strong and you probably won't break them. We stand behind that with a lifetime warranty. If you return them to us, we will give you a new wheel (probably made from some recycled carbon) and recycle the old one.
  • 8 17
flag DHhack (Feb 27, 2020 at 7:09) (Below Threshold)
 @danielsapp: strictly speaking, they are full of it. Recycling would turn broken rims into new rims. They are not doing that. Broken rim material will be reused making stems etc. Broken stems?

Never mind paying $700US for a rather generic looking rim design.
  • 18 2
 strange that not so many people get that. everybody thinks buying a new electric car every 3 years is good for our environment.
  • 28 4
 Guys. The impact of shipping a rim, especially one that you've cut into quarters, is so minimal. Whatever truck or plane that box made it on, is sharing cargo space with hundreds if not thousands of other packages. And likely, filling a small void that would otherwise not have been filled. The incremental environmental impact of that one extra box back, is nil. but the impact of recycling the material means less raw materials being process later, and less processed material going into landfill.
  • 34 3
 Sweeping generalizations are a scam.
  • 1 0
 And burn less gas
  • 17 6
 As an overall comment about recycling, this is very wrong. Recycling is very economically, and therefore environmentally, advantageous. Of course, more or much more in some things than others... Also regarding keeping things, it depends. Trading incandescent light bulbs for instance is advantageous in every way.
  • 41 0
 Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
  • 11 5
 Ahhh, everyone “knows” this so it must be true. The car comparison is bunk and even if it were true the entirety of Western Civilization is not going to be able drive a 1996 Camry around.

www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-news
  • 10 1
 @DavidGuerra: I know people in the industry. Aluminum and some plastics has some commercial demand but requires shipping to China for reuse in low stress products. Prices have been dropping to the point it doesn't support shipping. The market for recycled products is now saturated and much of what you think is being recycled is heading to landfill or worse in unethical countries.
  • 3 0
 @chasejj: Sure, I understand that, the commercial value is low and often even separated goods end up in landfills just the same, however that was an overall comment about recycling, and glass recycling for example is straightforward.
  • 9 0
 @DavidGuerra: The recycling industry is all kinds of messed up but that is a problem not a solution. These rims might be total greenwashing for all I know about the specifics. Recycling is only a scam because we refuse to pay the true cost of products inclusive of carbon and recycling on the backend.
  • 24 1
 The 3 R's are listed in the order they are - reduce, reuse, recycle - because that is their effective order. Of course, it's only recycling that is pushed in the marketplace, because it keeps consumption and commerce going. If you really want to make a difference, follow what @Adamrideshisbike says here. If you think a handful of high end bicycle rims with slightly improved recycleability will make any difference in the world, then maybe just reconsider if you need a new set of rims at all.
It's more work, but if ethical consideration is your thing then think about country of origin as well. If you can get your part from a source not located overseas, that's one less thing to fill another cargo ship that has to plow across the ocean burning 200 tons of bunker fuel per day.
  • 10 1
 You're absolutely correct, keep longer and buy less. But who is to say that your old wheelset cant be recycled? and who is to say that buying a recycled carbon set with this warranty isn't environmentally responsible. The more people buy recycled products, the less demand for new products there will be. I don't see a $2,200 wheelset saving the world from its trash crisis, but a landslide usually starts with a pebble. So this is at least a step in the right direction.
  • 3 1
 Thermoplastics are already used in many parts of the aerospace industry. Insulation for wiring, barriers between cabin compartments, switch heads and even the trays for the meal service.
Probably not the structural elements though, am I wrong?
  • 4 0
 @jaame: thermoplastics have linear polymer chains (basically any plastic you can melt), thermoset have covalent bonds (you heat them up and they burn instead). a Tupperware or plastic bag is a thermoplastic, whereas epoxy, adhesives, electrical wire insulation are all thermosets.
  • 4 0
 @BoneDog: oh ok. I thought you could melt wire insulation.
Still, thermoplastics are not used in structural elements of planes are they?
Just that the article’s introductory paragraph states that thermoplastics are good, and support this with the claim that they are used in aerospace. I’m sure they are, but there are many different applications within aerospace. Planes even have paper on them (sick bags, toilet paper, tissues) but we would not use this as evidence to support a suggestion that paper would be a good material for making bike wheels.

It strikes me as as a bit irrelevant without specific details of application.
  • 5 15
flag RoadStain (Feb 27, 2020 at 10:52) (Below Threshold)
 @DavidGuerra: "Trading incandescent light bulbs for instance is advantageous in every way." = FALSE

So, before I moved to FL I lived in Snow Land...the city replaced all the stop lights with the LED's...know what they dont do? Melt snow or ice due to not creating heat. There were hundreds of accidents due to the lights being covered in snow. From there the MFG and on and on and and on....They, in the end, are far worse, and I have never not once ever had one last over a year. I do out of my way to find Incandescent bulbs for all applications.
  • 2 0
 Trading in a car for another car is not recycling at all.
  • 4 0
 How the manufacturer is recycling this material is literally addressed in the article. Thomson, King and many other MTB companies that deal with aluminum in-house also recycle the cast off bits from the CNC process. While your secondary points may make from sense, your first sentence is provably false.
  • 5 0
 @jaame: insights.globalspec.com/article/12596/thermoplastic-composites-for-aerospace-applications I think they are trying to show that this new thermoplastic carbon fiber material is also being used in aerospace. I think its super exciting because you can imagine making a carbon fiber frame using plastic mold forming from a sheet of laminate. Like imagine no layup process and mixing of epoxy, you just pull a sheet of laminate over a hot mold and form it in a press.
  • 1 1
 @RoadStain: How about the YouTube video where they compare the gas milage of a c5 corvette and a Prius?
  • 3 0
 @RoadStain: I would not trust Top Gear as a source. They faked that the Tesla Roadster broke down during the test.
  • 4 0
 @lkubica: Not evwrything is worth recycling. Big tankers cost too much to be recycled. They can be recycled at a huge loss, that is why they are sent to india where we dont care what happens to the workers and the beaches.
  • 7 0
 I know trading in cars isn't an example of recycling, but I was just reminded of this mentality, that buying new things can somehow be considered a 'green thing to do' and that was the first thing I thought of. I owned a Prius until recently and they are amazing. I'd buy one again.

I'm just had it up to here with eco-consumerism or environmentalism as a marketing strategy. I'm also a curmudgeon before I get a coffee into me in the morning.

To me, a $2200 carbon fibre wheel set should be sold for what it is. A luxury item bought by people with carbon footprints the size of Shaq. And I wouldn't judge anyone for that. I like new things too.
  • 2 0
 @sngltrkmnd: underrated comment
  • 6 0
 Recycling is a great way to make consumers feel better about themselves and thus companies can sell more disposable products. Funny thing is we are going backwards. Reduce, reuse, recycle uses to be a saying and it was in that order for a reason. Now it is consume, consume, toss in a recycle bin and feel good about yourself even if the recycle bin ends up in the landfill.
  • 7 0
 If only there was a material, perhaps a metal, which we could make all the bike frames and rims from? One that is easily and cheaply recycled!
  • 8 0
 @RoadStain: Oh give me a break, what's that got to do with the lighting itself?? An heating circuit can be installed that only gets turned on in winter, energy cost will be lower overall. Or maybe get processors there mining bitcoins and melting the snow at the same time, it's better than just creating electrical resistance for nothing. Or just leave the damn lamps, that's got nothing to do with my comment. Replacing incandescent bulbs is only not worth it if their use is very sporadic. In fact, in where I live their sale is now prohibited.
  • 5 15
flag RoadStain (Feb 27, 2020 at 13:08) (Below Threshold)
 @DavidGuerra: I will stick to incandescents. I guess I will leave out the thousands of people left out of jobs due to plants closing (and going to China where no EPA is worried about the toxic chemicals in the new -better- bulbs). Then again, I do not at all care what my electric bill is, nor my water bill....that is MY bill (I also tend to get about 10mpg in my car as it is always, always in Sport or Race mode). Simply, that is my finances and none of the business of any other person.

For the people who do try to make it their business, they can start in China, India and other places where something such a catalytic converter is new fangled. Or, go to Africa and keep the kids from using torches while cutting the lids off of 50-gallon drums to make authentic African "art" for the tourists (barefoot).
  • 1 0
 @BoneDog: I stand corrected, that’s very interesting. Thanks for the link.
  • 2 0
 @joni0001984: Top Gear is tabloid entertainment that happens to use cars as a vehicle to present the entertainment.
  • 1 0
 @joni0001984: I thought it was Bangladesh. They reuse all of that metal!
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: For Thermosets, you can burn the epoxy out to get the fibers and reuse them in a molding compound. For Thermoplastics, you can shop the rims in small pieces, and re-melt the whole thing into short fiber panels than can be formed again into something new, but you are downsizing the fiber length and contaminating the resin each time, so there might only be a couple of cycles possible. Still a bit better than burning the epoxy, but not much of a step towards circular manufacturing.
  • 4 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: my mate was telling me the other day that the most environmentally friendly vehicle ever made is the Land Rover defender, because 90% of all units ever made are still on the road
  • 6 5
 @GuerillaGravity - Guerilla Gravity, please make carbon wheels that people can afford !
  • 1 0
 @Adamrideshisbike Amen brother. Don't foresee anyone shipping in their old bike parts for recycling anytime soon. Even those 'old' aluminum and steel parts probably get trashed more often than recycled.
  • 5 0
 @jaame: Both TP and TS composites are used in a variety of structural components across multiple industries.
Quick example: www.compositesworld.com/blog/post/injection-overmolded-composites-demo-comes-to-conclusion

There isn't a better material to rule them all though. Different applications with different criterias will be better off with a TS or a TP, and there are dozens of each to choose from. Just like there are hundreds of alloys for a variety of structural applications. You won't use wood for a exhaust pipe, and you won't use glass for a baseball bat. Different properties for different uses.
  • 3 0
 @jaame: I would expect an answer more in the spirit of "one of the lowest-emissions vehicles ever made as it's usually carried about on a flatbed truck/transporter" haha /s
  • 7 0
 @maccraz: that's cool.
One thing I love about PB is that in amongst all the inane pubescent teen comments, there are people with real knowledge!
  • 1 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: Bravo!!x10000000
  • 8 4
 @RoadStain: your argument against leds is a hell of a stretch. How can lack of lights contribute to a massive increase in accidents? If anything cities around the world are too lit, WHO is currently working out how much negative effect it has on our health (as the assumption is: it is harmful) and energy cost, pollution in case of coal generated electricity, is very easy to see.
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: who? Chinese Communist Party lackeys
  • 2 4
 @jaame: so now WHO is bad?
  • 1 0
 @BoneDog: especially when not used
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: an organisation in cahoots with a dictatorship, becoming complicit in the fabrication of false information cannot be considered saintly.
  • 2 0
 @matadorCE: i know right, we need more dictatorships and less options/freedoms.
  • 1 0
 @ewoodard024: interesting how in many places, we cannot put a new engine in an old car...wait what, why?
  • 3 0
 @sngltrkmnd: it's funny you say that. I was at Revolition bike park the other day and they have about ten defenders pulling the shuttle trailers up and down a gravel track on the side of a very steep hill all day every day. Some of them look like they have been cobbled together from four donor vehicles. Consensus from the drivers seems to be that no other vehicle could do that. Yes they break, but that's not the point. The point is that you can fix them yourself with rudimentary tools and a bit of mechanical knowhow in the middle of nowhere. No laptop or specific tools required. They give a consistently mediocre level of performance, which for an actual working vehicle is far preferable to better performance from something else that relies on electronics and lighweight differentials etc.
  • 2 1
 @Dougal-SC: Aluminum is pretty rough on the enviornment to manufacture. I still hold out hope that titanium will make a comeback. Its right inbetween steel and aluminum for weight, so tubing geometry is right inbetween as well. With modern manufacturing techniques, it should be possible to make linkage driven suspension frames that are stiffer than steel but as light/ligher than aluminum.
  • 1 0
 @joni0001984: I wouldn’t trust anything EM says either...
  • 2 7
flag deserat (Feb 27, 2020 at 16:38) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: It's Range Rover, not Land Rover, that makes the defender. And Range Rovers are notoriously unreliable vehicles. The defenders are collectors items and haven't been produced for 20 years (until just recently). That's why the limited numbers built are "still on the road".
  • 1 0
 amen, sir
  • 6 0
 @hamncheez: Bauxite mining and processing is very dirty and energy intensive. Bauxite is the raw material for producing aluminium. Aluminium recycling is relatively clean and saves something like 90% of the energy compared to using bauxite. Aluminium is also basically infinity recyclable with basically no loss of the original material. Aluminium recycling is the preferred way to produce new aluminium. It's cheap, cleanish, and done locally most everywhere in the world.
  • 3 0
 Yes it's wrong to trade in your current car just to buy a prius but if you were doing it anyway, and you buy an electric car instead of diesel/petrol, then it makes sense.
  • 1 0
 @Korbi777: The point is if they're buying electric instead of petrol.
  • 1 0
 Buying the Heckler is also not a good idea to anyone but a marketer.
  • 2 0
 @RoadStain: wierd, your snow land must have been different... all of our traffic lights are LED and have been for some time... havent bought a single light bulb in my house for over 6 yrs. Maybe LEDs are allergic to you!
  • 1 0
 @BoneDog: fake news, and you know it.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: More likely that they'd grind the rim down into granules. Then it's simple to mold them into various shapes because of the plastic content. Unfortunately I'm not sure that separating the carbon strands from the glues is financially viable, this is driven more by reclaiming manufacturing resources than saving the planet.
  • 2 0
 @chasejj: put environmental taxes on.mining and watch that equation shift.
  • 1 0
 @Adamrideshisbike: The thought is nice, but at $2200, only a small percentage of bikers will be able to afford them. Thus, that small percentage more than likely is not your average environmentalist driving a Prius. Probably a BMW or something similar. If these wheels were around $600, that would be a different story, because the masses could afford them, which would make a positive impact from the most bikers. Right now, they are just a luxury item. Keep longer, buy less
  • 1 0
 @jaame: is that factoring in the constant repairs?
  • 1 0
 @jaame: They are used but typically not in primary structure as extreme temperatures degrade the strength performance. Also they aren't as strong as thermosets in-plane. For out-of-plane applications, like a wheel hitting a rock, the strength is mainly based on the resin strength. So it makes sense to use a thermoplastic in this case as a) you don't have extreme temperatures and b) the resin is the important part.
  • 1 1
 @jaame: I am not saying WHO is the best one could have but it is a... Landrover Defender. I would like you then to point me to an alternative, accessible, viable source of information that general public can use. Because right now, especially in non-English speaking countries it’s fear mongering media and a*sholes on Social misledia. When Swine flu broke out Swedish gov did a huge failure and went with the fear mongering BS, providing shitty vaccine to everyone. Should we now stop vaccinating ourselves every time when government says: “vaccinate” because they are no longer (if have ever been) trustworthy? Should we maybe start an ‘independent‘ worldwide Crisis center? Should I sing Kumba Ya now? There’s no info on WHO website that says: “Corona may kill you” unless they mean beer because that one Surely killed More people than Virus. The virus has lots of work to do to catch up to fatalities and destroyed lives caused either by plaethora of diseases caused by beer indirectly or driving or doing stupid stuff under influence of that particular beer. And there’s more beers and types of alcohol to look at. WHO can give you quite a few cues on how harmful foods to avoid when running to A grocery store in panic, to buy a survival kit for 2 weeks. Ironically, I wonder how many folks Who did this already will Over eat that crap (For it to not go to waste, like 30kg of pasta that some Italians bought) and die of cancer they normally wouldn’t get. I love the irony. I just love it.
  • 3 0
 @Maxcommencemal: Unpopular opinion: being environmentally friendly is actually profitable for most things, in the long run with a decent legal framework in place.

When Standard Oil in the USA dropped the cost of oil to consumers by over 90%, it ended the whaling industry. Disease from livestock was more environmentally harmful to people than cars. Now that the car industry is mature, disruptors like Tesla are helping us move away from oil.

Revel is a small company, and their rims are going to sell even less than their bikes (for now; I'd love for them to grow and challenge the big boys). However, they are proving that the CSS technology is viable in the market, and hopefully it will allow bike manufacturing to move away from thermosets to thermoplastics.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: yeah, it's a first step moving away from 2 part resins, absolutely.
I'm cynical because they haven't gone into much depth explaining how they recycle the rims at the end of their useful life as part of a wheel and because of the price, that frankly doesn't reflect either an automated production line or the true value of the reclamation process.
  • 1 0
 @Maxcommencemal: Are you THE Max Commencal?
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: Commencemal as in "ça commence mal" (that started badly)
Although I admire my namesake's outlook with regards to carbon and costing.
  • 2 0
 @Maxcommencemal: Haha looks like my two years of French in school was a waste
  • 1 0
 @RoadStain: Trek has a carbon frame recycling program, but it would need to be sent back to them. A few years back, Specialized tried a carbon recycling program but ended it due to lack of volume. For now, they apparently store all their scrapped carbon frames in a warehouse, so they don't end up in the landfill.
  • 2 0
 @GRMTBR: Um, not saying your wrong (but I will)....I have stood next to more than one dumpster in Waterloo (it was a about 90 min road ride from home). Their dumpsters have always looked like a collection of crushed dreams...mostly carbon dreams.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns:When the stop lighs are all covered in snow and you can not tell what color they are...well, it is pretty clear.

Now, in an effort to save the earth some of the suburbs install normal bulbs in the winter (arriving with multiple F350 trucks and booms). Then in the spring put back in the LED's (that seem to always have most of the LED's non-functional). They were talking about the heaters, the housings were not designed for them.

TCO is outlandish...but, hey Chicago, they get the government they deserve (then, the leaders go to prison). Plus, the power there is all Nuke plants, the hippie-liberal-tree-huggers are out of their free range organic gourds.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: I know, when they reviewed my car they claimed something like 18mpg avg....I get a little more than 10......Plus, putting Jeremy in a Prius should be considered a war crime.
  • 3 0
 @RoadStain: Your sense of entitlement is void when it deals with the use of non-renewable resources (as your electricity production undoubtedly does, as does the oil for your car) that you did not create. Yes, their use puts us in moral debt to future generations, and in cases like yours with no logical justification. But logic runs scarce in the heads of most people currently populating this planet. For many it's enough that someone else is behaving worse than them.
  • 1 0
 @DavidGuerra: LOL, and yet, until someone can tell me exactly who melted the glaciers that created the US Great Plains, who it was that we blame for the Grand Canyon, or if the Gulf of Mexico really is not a crater as science tells us it probably is.....then, and only then will I care.
  • 3 1
 @RoadStain: Jeez you're a bundle of ignorant science denial aren't you
  • 1 1
 @NorCalNomad: I do not confuse theory with fact. Fact is, no human knows. Fact is, geological studies are ALL theory.

Know why a hole in the ozone was found? We went looking. So, now how do we stop plate tectonics and volcanoes? How about hurricanes and tornadoes? These are facts. Lightbulbs saving earth? Delusional theory.
  • 3 0
 @RoadStain: sorry I get ya. I thought you meant the light posts.

Other than that, there is a consensus among scientists that we are warming up the planet, it’s undeniable because it is so easy to measure. Get your head out of your bum. We all due it at some point, no matter the issue. I see no correlation between Leds and humans warming up the planet. As to what comes out of this warming it’s a completely different story. It’s scenarios. Nobody knows what EXACTLY will happen. Just estimates. One thing is sure, many people consume way too much shit and it harms them directly
  • 6 3
 1. I don't feel in moral debt to future generations. The world will not end in the next 100 years. Anyone who believes the earth will be uninhabitable in 100 years should personally help future generations of their family by not having babies. That would also solve the overpopulation problem in the event that the world does not end in 100 years.

2. Science does not prove theories. It supports or disproves.

3. Humans are adaptable. They literally walked around the world from Africa. The Pacific Islands were populated by people who sailed in canoes made from hollowed out logs from Asia. If they can do that, they can get on a plane and move... Not that they would have to because according to what I read in Nat Geo, some Pacific aslands are shrinking, some are stable and some are growing.

3. There are positives to climate change.

4. There is a lot of hyperbole and dare I say it hysteria in the media. Every storm, every flood, gets blamed on climate change. Sorry, I mean the "climate Emergency" (!)
The media seems to get fixated on a certain subject for a cycle of several years. It reminds me of when I got home from backpacking and every day the news was carrying a story of some act of terrorism which had been "carried out by a terrorist group with links to all Qaeda". It was as ridiculous at the time as what we have now with the global warming bollocks.

The only problem is, news leads the masses, they all start bleating the same shit, and suddenly a theory becomes a fact and you need to be chastised if you dare to even question any of it.

There is no singular truth regarding any subject in life. And that's a fact.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: I agree... but we are living in rather ineffective ways. That includes me. We could minimize consumption out of Pure human drive For improvement and excellence. Warming is a kind of concern for me personally but much lower than pollution. Off course we got much better at decreasing it and we are getting better. I don’t give a sht if Europe needs to invest trillions in developing batteries, recycling of them and waste sites for them. I don’t want to inhale shit and I want noise to go down, I also want fkng city illumination to go down by at least a half, people to eat so that they can limit themselves in 3k calories. All this can be achieved with legalization of psychedelics. It’s a fact
  • 3 1
 @RoadStain: Well. I wasn't even requesting an understanding of science from you. Non renewable resource. Do you understand what that means? Non sustainable consumption. Do you get it? What you are doing cannot be done indefinitely. You can afford it now, but you won't be able to afford it later, when it inevitably becomes scarcer. It's called stupid and irresponsible squandering of finite resources. All we will have then is the CO2 that we transferred from the underground into the atmosphere. Again, none of what I mention requires an understanding of science, although the tiniest bit of logic will lead you to recognize the global warming effect that brings.
  • 2 2
 @DavidGuerra: let's chat about glaciers.....you know...the ones that made the Great Plains.....was it Coal or Oil that melted them?
  • 3 1
 @RoadStain: you are saying sole stupid stuff, sorry, What does one have to do with the other? Do you want to make a case that Dinosaurs lived in an even warmer climate?! If you put things into such perspective, you are simply incapable of understanding the life span of a human being of humans as species, temperature ranges Current flora and fauna operates under. Yhe only thing people are getting from such discussions is how many people are incapable of putting facts together and that we actually may be doomed And environmentalist are just wanking it out, doing no more good than harm. Now philosophy backed with a bit of history of mass extinctions can give us answers to whether It actually matters whether humans survive or not.
  • 2 0
 @RoadStain: simply, please get more understanding of time frame of change. Humans sped up warming exponentially. Then the matter is how long are we supposed to stay here anyways. Environmental couch activists should also understand the idea of time frames. I blame those snowflakes for fueling the climate change deniers movements... science, reasoning, have nothing to do with ideological agenda or f*ck all attitudes.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: we change it? Maybe...but NO ONE knows science over a millenia... no one. For all we know solar flares will take out the earth today....I will be having fun till then.

Odd note: not a single gas friendly car at the trail head. I think my 6cyl may be the most efficient. Most are jeeps with huge tires....environmentalists I am sure.
  • 3 0
 @chasejj:
You’re right about recyclable materials going to landfills but it’s not because of lack of demand, it’s because of the poor quality of the recycling facilities’ output, it’s unusable commercially because of contamination. We have to invest heavily in these facilities.
  • 3 1
 @RoadStain: For me the whole subject is just "...next..."

Do we affect the climate? I don't know. Some people say we do, some say we don't. Let's for the sake of argument say the majority is right. Then the next question I ask myself is, do I care? Yes, I care. Next question - do I care enough to do anything about it? Not really. Do I think the population of the world is of the collective mind to do something about it even if everyone believed it and started to care about it enough to change their lives enough to do anything about it? No. I don't.

The climate is going to change whether we like it or not. Humans will not exist indefinitely. Eventually our species will become extinct. They question is only when. Is the entire population going to stop consuming, stop flying, stop eating meat, stop buying iPhones, stop driving cars, because it wants to save the planet (which is actually code for save the species)? I doubt it. I'm not going to be the only mug eating a plant based diet and going on holiday at an eco resort. Travelling to work on three electric buses instead of driving my own car, and walking two miles to the nearest phone box only to find out they removed the phone in 1993.

I like having 2-3 showers a day and I'm not going to stop doing that until I die.

All the Thumbergers in the world can suck a bag of dicks as far as I'm concerned.
  • 2 0
 @mgibeault: Um, no. Our local facility closed because the enviro-wackos kept complaining about polution from the recycling center. Plus, no profit mean no investors means no function for our economy or work force.
  • 3 1
 @jaame: is racism wrong? Some people say it is some people say it isn’t... come on...
  • 1 1
 but if your perfectly functioning older car is getting 8mpg, the new prius (or even better, a new electric car) will certainly make environmental sense, and will more than make up for the production costs of the new car.
  • 1 1
 @BoneDog: but you're wrong. a new tesla will more than make up for production costs, never mind running costs (and by costs i mean CO2 emissions) your correct, in that a new tesla will not "pay" for itself strictly financially over keeping the used corolla, but it does make sense environmentally speaking. unfortunately, no govt has yet truly taxed CO2 emissions for all of the externalities. (how much do you think it will cost to move the entire city of Vancouver or Miami 10-15 miles inland when sea levels rise 30ft?) but if they did, the Tesla (or any other BEV) will certainly pay for itself.
  • 3 0
 @jaame: There is no singular truth regarding any subject in life. And that's a fact.

seriously? 1+1 = 2 that's a fact. the earth is not flat. also a fact. lot's of "singular truths" out there. stop trying to claim that anything you don't like isn't a fact. facts don't give a shit about your feelings or political leanings.

the fact that many species will go extinct due to human caused climate change is wrong. the fact that every coastal city is going to be badly flooded is wrong. the fact that tons of droughts and famines will be caused is wrong.

burying your head in the sand isn't the right response.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Wow. A person who actually thinks and uses analytical processes. Refreshing to say the least.
  • 1 1
 @chasejj: I am not sure he agrees with you. He’s not a bigot Big Grin
  • 1 0
 @mgibeault: Wrong. I know the people who own the facilities. It's demand. The demand for poor quality recycled aluminum has limits. We have reached the limits.
  • 1 0
 @adamkovics: This is bullshit. Why? In life always follow the money. If sea levels were actually rising and coastal cities were in danger of flooding. Then the banks would no longer even entertain development in these areas. The fact is 85% of ALL real estate development dollars goes to coastal cities and the flow continues unimpeded. There are no plans to halt this.
That is all the proof anyone needs to know that the "sky is foaling" scenarios are propaganda being spewed to distract the mob. One thing banks won't do is lose money, all their jobs depend on this.
.
  • 1 1
 @RoadStain: Yes, the climate does change without human intervention. Yes, the current global warming is not 100% of human origin, maybe "just" 50% or so. Want to discuss more?
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Ad hominem attacks from the drug addled nut. Not an effective approach Wakijob.
  • 2 1
 @chasejj: you are an idiot, just like 99% of climate change deniers. This is exactly why you need to talk about “truth”. You need to compensate because you know you are dumber than most folks you went to school with and you work with.
  • 1 1
 @jaame: This is why every environmental initiative is doomed as long as the overpopulation problem isn't addressed. I mean, it's so obvious and undeniable, it's a simple matter of math, every "over" problem has its source in the "over"population. In one hundred years population has risen five times. There are no miracle tecnologies to lessen our environmental impact. The only thing that can lessen our impact and our consumption is poverty, and nobody wants that, or should be expected to want that. Population size is the crucial variable, all the rest are good intentions that amount to nothing, environmental meetings that amount to nothing, and things that do nothing but rest our conscience, like recycling or buying "green" products. Shaping a better future for our children starts by having fewer of them, but mankind as a collective is too stupid to realize this. The collective brain is lacking, rationality is lacking. We are only able to behave like vermin.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I personally do not agree with racism, but more often than not the term "racism" is used when it would be more appropriate to use something like "culturism".
The media would have us believe everything is racist, when in reality I don't think many people discriminate on grounds of race. Probably culture is a more likely cause for discrimination, in western countries at least.

Right and wrong are very loaded terms heavily influenced by common perception at the time which is in turn influenced by a lot of factors.

As our culture develops, so right and wrong also develop.
For example, most people would probably say smoking opium is wrong, but it was legal in the UK until 1917 or so. Before that time, it could conceivably have been considered right.
Sending your kids out to work at six years old used to be right, now it's wrong in Europe but right in some countries. I could go on but I won't.

The point is, different people have different views. Science is often cited as proof of things when in fact it is not proof per se.

I strive to keep an open mind is all I'm saying. I also respect the right of others to hold a differing opinion or view. I am a true liberal.
  • 2 0
 @DavidGuerra: I agree. And to that I would add: no one would wish poverty on others, but I have seen a lot of poverty and I'm indifferent to it. Some people live in poverty, I don't. I was lucky enough to be born in a rich country and I'm not about to throw away the gift.
It makes me sound like an arsehole maybe, selfish, yes. I'm being honest and the evidence I see all around me tells me most people feel the same, even.if they don't admit it.
The fact is, the majority of people only care about themselves and their immediate family. They work to amass the next thing up the ladder that they need, be it food or personal wealth and that's it.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: now you got into a thought loop. Considering how many times I got into “racism” here I know well enough how twisted it can get. You also know it well enough, so spare me that. Just because 10% of scientists believe human contribution to global warming is small and irrelevant doesn’t mean there isn’t a clear consensus among 80% of scientists that we are warming the planet a lot. As I said above, what will come out of this warming is a prognosis and these cannot be accurate.

So, because you play with words and facts. Yes there is minority of people Who think humans are not warming up the climate significantly, that 2 degrees is nothing, just like there are folks who think that black and brown people are a lesser race and they have some scientific facts to prove it. They can tell you that They come from undeveloped countries and it will take at least two generations, tens of tears to reach Western white level of civilization.

There are diminishing returns to anything including Being critical of consensus of scientists. There is a difference between being critocal of academic consensus and consensus of politicians or religious people.

Psychedelics. Use them. They are a bitch of a pain in the ass for any belief system. They disrupt and reset behaviour patterns and thought processes, they make people question themselves.
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Most racism I have ever seen in the span of my life is in South Africa, followed by the United States. If you are white, you are guilty of something. If you are white and are the victim of a crime, you deserved it and if your suspect is black you are racist. Plus, we get no college funds, TV stations, history months, special parades, small business loans and on and on and on.....
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: "you are an idiot, just like 99% of climate change deniers" no one is denying climate change (need I bring up glaciers again?). But, you can not prove humans are an appreciable part of the theory, no one can. Again, pesky facts.

Truth be told, I can convince you that cutting off your own penis is the best option. I just need to offer the right alternatives. This is the same context that current enviro-wackjobs and the media live for.
  • 2 1
 @RoadStain: I don’t need a lecture on racism, I can tell a SJW ugly snowflake and an subhuman Xenophobe And racist from someone who generalizes something Using a certain ethnic group, or just tells a joke challenging a social norm.
  • 2 0
 I agree 99.9% of recycling is exactly as you say, but still, to me this seems like a step in the right direction. Oh, and i also have a 15 year old prius thats done over 270,000km and keeping till at least approx 20 years / 300,000 - still runs perfectly, had to replace front brake pads only at 180,000km, front discs at 230,000km woohoo for regenerative braking, and water pump last service at 260,000km. On its 5th set of tires, still gets 4.7l per hundred km so i've saved aroud 15k in fuel as well even vs a small car. Go toyota for using tier one parts for quality. My road bikes are on a 10 year tenure, tt bike on 25 year plan, mtb's - 3.5 years for my full suspension bike - not sure when to replace that as new is to mtb (3.5 years) and don't know how long these things last? Its done 34 races, im on my 3rd rear shock, 3rd set of swing arm bearings, 2nd set of brakes, cracked on rear wheel, broken on crank arm and one pedal, oh yeah also broke 2 rear derailleurs - they seem to have a somewhat tougher life than road bikes hahahaha - so it will be interesting to see how long before it needs replacing but it is starting to feel tired so i've started pondering ...... Smile
  • 1 2
 @RoadStain: I am not an environmentalist, I hate 80% of those people, they are doing more damage than good. I hate boiling it all down to Co2 footprint, it is retarded. The obvious solutions to many problems are there but they are neither in favor of fossil fuels lobbyists and power greedy environmentalists with minority complex and plethora of social disorders. No other people want to see the world burn more than aggressive environmentalists. I have however no problem with understanding how humans contribute to raise of Global temperatures and pollution of air, ground and water.
  • 1 0
 @arknotnoahs: recyclable carbon rims are polishing the turd, everyone with a bit of ability to make simple research knows they release more toxins and require more energy to Make than alloy ones. They are also useless outside of road and Xc racing. It’s bullshit. Just like the Shitstorm pole caused. It’s like environmentalist lunatics in Sweden who want to make jet fuel from plants and put tax on flying instead of banging on Gov doors to double the railway system and subsidize public transport more.
  • 1 0
 @arknotnoahs: it is simply trying hard to make an ineffective and/or faulty thing work instead of changing the approach completely or just using the existing tech that does the job quite well.
  • 3 1
 @WAKIdesigns: 40 years ago the scientists were saying the next ice age was on the way because there was heavier snowfall for a few years.

I won't lie. I haven't read up on climate change just like I haven't read up on Islamic extremism, transgenderism or plant based dietism.

I'm just not that interested. Everything in the news is suspect, and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I think some of the environmental stuff has its roots in the anti-capitalist/anti-establishment movement for sure. I'm sick of hearing about Greta Thumbergs and Extinction Rebellion (what a ridiculous name). I've even started throwing some plastic containers in the bin instead of the recycling just because I hate them so much. It's my way of getting back at them for all the oxygen they are wasting by being alive.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I totally disagree with the idea of taxing motorists off the road. It won't work. Legislation to force a vehicular change is what we need.

My suggestions are as follows:
1. Ban cars with more than one empty seat in 2040. Everyone will have 20 years to use the car they have and then buy a new one with two seats. Or maybe car companies will make cars with telescopic mid sections that can extend to increase the number of seats when necessary. Shorter cars take up less room, it's better for congestion, fuel economy would go up, and emissions down.

2. Make everyone under 25 ride a scooter or motorbike instead of a car. If you want a car licence you have to earn it by holding a scooter licence for x number of years first. This would also make the roads safer as all the young kevs would learn to use the roads on a vehicle with much less potential to harm others. Plus a few of the young punks would die which would probably do society a favour in the long term.

3. More roundabouts and fewer traffic lights - keep the traffic moving. It's better than start/stop because you don't have to accelerate from a dead stop every time.

4. Remoulded tyres for the life of the carcass.

5. The school run could be banned. People can choose whatever school they want to send their kids to, but they have to walk there. This would have the added benefit of making all those big fat heifers lose some weight off their disgusting fat arses, doing their husbands a massive favour in the process. Or wives, if it was the husbands losing the weight off their revolting beer bellies and double chins. Let's just get healthy by walking! You don't need the gym or clean food if you walk ten miles a day.

6. Working from home could be mandatory, perhaps on x number of days per week. Obvious benefits. That, or a condensed work week of 4x10hr days for example, instead of 5x8hrs.

7. The throwaway culture is shunned. There is a minimum life permissible on home appliances. TVs, fridges, washing machines. You have a licence for them and you have to keep them for x number of years. Ten maybe. Under that time they must be fixed, not replaced. Manufacturers would therefore start to make them properly, and make spares available - no more having to replace the whole assembly when one washer and a bushing have worn out.

8. Same for iPhones. Five year life minimum - loss of trading licences for smart phone companies who do not make phones that last.

9. Self-service butchers shops - farming is a problem and we need to get people to eat less meat. If they had to cut their own meat off an animal instead of picking up a plastic pack from a supermarket refrigerator a lot of people would think twice about eating meat - am I right?

10. A return to the old deli style supermarkets. You buy your beans by the spoon from a big container. Spoon them out into your own reusable bean box. Same for nuts, bread, eggs, yogurt, whatever. No more plastic packaging. In fact, no more packaging. Use your own tupperware and wash it up after.
  • 2 1
 @jaame: Ban cars with more than one empty seat in 2040.

That will work great in rural USA....uh huh.....

2. Make everyone under 25 ride a scooter or motorbike instead of a car - but, I can AFFORD a car and the gas. I am free...so, I will drive my own, thank you (shall I bring up the SeaRay Sundancer 470 and its two 7.9ltr diesels?)

5. The school run could be banned. - absolutely. But, that is racist.

8. Same for iPhones. - I broke at least five phones last year. I do not care, I buy a new one.

9. Self-service butchers shops - farming is a problem and we need to get people to eat less meat. - soylent green. Uh huh.

You been watching old episodes of Little House on the Prairie on some US Classic station?
  • 1 1
 @jaame: It’s hard to understand each other... I said that it is obvious humans are warming the planet more than other processes and that it is not obvious what will it mean in coming years. Sea level will rise, yes. Bummer... or quite a lot of GDP raise, lots of construction people getting jobs and stuff. But quite a few people out there believe we are not warming the planet by any significant amount. Yes what is significant. 1 degree too much water won’t freeze, one too little it freezes - now who benefits? What Sucks for skiers works great for construction workers.

I see we agree on one thing that huge body of environmentalists are people with misplaced empathy and self esteem. I do not believe in honesty of most vegans, greenies and lefties, when you see people being avid activists it’s rarely a non selfish truth when it comes to “what’s in it for you” - the answer is more than probably: you Genuinely dislike humans. You were bullied as a kid, you were non attractive for some reason, observed your friends drink, dance, shag, take drugs and you were not a part of it... you were never the part of the group no matter the reasons and now you found people who can take you in.

Now you seem quite extreme with your proposals, I believe we can start with effective and more affordable car pooling and big investments in railroad infrastructure, public transport in general as well as alternative to cars, like those silly half bikes, half mini cars.

Can we also Publicly execute people in municipalities who allowed this electric kickbike plague?
  • 1 0
 @RoadStain: you may review nuances of meat consumption on it’s own as well as combination with other foods for your own benefit, I don’t care about animal suffering. It’s as hard to argue with not give a fks as with greenies. Both are retarded.

Just because certain things don’t work in rural US or Cambodia doesn’t mean their stupid otherwise it would mean whole world should do as rural US. Thinking about context is hard indeed. You have to actually think often... much harder than deciding on which side of a fence you are
  • 1 2
 @WAKIdesigns: At the end of the day, you can NOT legislate behaviors in a free nation. While many people on this forum are not in a free nation, in the US there are many "god given" things we cherish.

If the Govt tries to ban guns - there will be a Civil War and the people will win.
If the Govt tried to ban free travel, or quota's on travel - there will be a Civil War and the people will win.
If Socialists try to make everyone equal, millions will be out of jobs (and there goes the tax base).
If the idiot Dems try to tax money 'at rest' we will simply move more of it offshore or into places it can not be traced (as easily).

For the tax I pay to simply fuel the boat (from E-F) the attendant's wages could be paid for 30 days (assuming he is at or near Min Wage). That is just the tax for filing at the harbor, already far more costly than fuel for the cars. Most of the time we would leave IL and get fuel in IN or WI for the tax savings (outside of the liberal run "gun free" zone of Chicago).

What is funny, how many Teslas were at the parking area of the harbor...where people get on their boats and we calculate gallons per hour (@xRPM) and the tender craft tends to have 200HP of engine with no emission controls at all.
  • 2 1
 @RoadStain: you are constantly looking for a hole in the pretty image making not giving a fk Into a virtue, since it is not hypocritical as if you Lived by that idea anyways. You do care about loads of stuff. It’s like listening to my old man, who’s top ideology is not being a hypocrite and not being a poser. I like Tesla for two reasons: power and it doesn’t spew exhaust Gases where I live. It’s ok to be a hypocrite, it is impossible not to be one Smile but I can tell you that I used car pool for2 years and I’d gladly not own a car anymore. I love travelling with a well functioning railways (like Poland or Germany or Holland, not like fkng Sweden) I own a car because... I want to travel for riding bikes. Hence whoever says mtb is green, they are idiots and they are full of crap. I travel little... but I will gove you an example of easily avoidable wasteful behavior: Norwegians grow and fish salmon, transport it for a day to Oslo and then fly it to Japan. That’s fkd up. You don’t need regulations. You need... education and self control...
  • 1 0
 Sorry but this statement is nonsense. It suggests the choice is binary, SURPRISE, it’s not. You can make stuff from recycleable materials AND you can use them longer. Aluminum is a perfect example of this.
  • 1 0
 Nothing to add here. Thanks!
  • 171 0
 Disclaimer: I am not a materials scientist, but I have co-supervised students working on efficient thermoplastic fabrication.

Thermoplastics are very interesting from a manufacturing point of view, as they would in theory allow for automated production. I think this is still an area of research, however.

From an environmental point of view, carbon fibre is the only thing that matters - it dominates all other components due to its energy intensity. To make these specific rims, they start with long fibres, and cut them for specific shapes. As the article indicates, once you melt the resin (assuming you can melt enough away, this is not trivial) you end up with shorter fibres. Practically impossible to reuse on rims, so get used in smaller components. So, in my opinion, this is more downcycling than recycling, and is not circular. To be clear, not much currently is! But aluminium and steel are much closer to circularity, though perfect circularity is tough due to alloying elements and mixing of waste streams.

If you take environmental considerations into account when making decisions, people had things pretty much figured out 25 years ago: First reduce, then reuse, and only recycle as the last resort.
  • 14 0
 Best comment to have a clear understanding
  • 2 3
 It's still a reasonable model since stems for example usually only become trash from being outdated in diameter standard, not from breaking. Rims are more likely to become destroyed, but their next form is more definitive. Besides, I think that it takes less energy to turn a thermoplastic rim into a stem than an aluminium rim. Lower melting point.
  • 6 4
 "easily and infinitely re-moldable into something else" - this is hogwash - I'm not a materials scientist either but know that the molecules will never go back to the 'virgin' state of the plasticity in the original manufacturing.

Maybe if a company wanted to tout their environmental bonafides they would START with recycled material and then make rims from that, and not consume any first-use materials at all. What, no market for it?
  • 3 0
 Great comment! I think one point of these conversations that seems to get lost is everyone begins talking in absolutes when it comes to criticizing: “Sure it’s recyclable, but how many will actually get recycled or “a lifetime warranty doesn’t always cover everything, so then they’ll just get thrown in the trash”. Nobody guaranteed anyone that now a material being used that can be recycle would mean 100% of everything manufactured will actually be recycled. That’s just an instant assumption that is made and then criticized when it comes up short. As far as we know 0% of other carbon rims can be recycled so if even a quarter of these rims end up getting recycled, 25% is still better than zero. It’s a step in the right direction
  • 5 5
 @brycepiwek: None will be recycled. Think about the process required for that. Think. It is marketing virtue signaling. Which is annoying, but predictable in the environment this manufacturing segment lives in.
  • 5 0
 I think you are probably mostly correct about down cycling but I did check the Revel website:

"We have a pretty big pile of rims from our development process that we have already recycled and turned into parts. Our partners are dedicated to perfecting this method and the sky is the limit to what we can make. If we get a rim back that needs to be recycled, we remove the vinyl decals and drop the rim into a chipper to chop the rim up into small blocks about 1” square. Those chips are melted down into a block of material that can be turned into another part."

They don't specify what parts are being made with the recycled materials, but I have seen quite a few interesting parts being manufactured with carbon fiber SMC. Who knows maybe your broken rim ends up in a Gorilla Gravity frame Smile

CSS seems to make parts in a bunch of different industries. composite-sourcing.com/about_composite_sourcing_solutions.html
  • 1 0
 @jasonmiles: grind them down and you've got a heat mouldable composite material. I'm not sure about it's uses for making structural components though, I'm no engineer. It seems more applicable for making pedals and suchlike.
  • 1 0
 @jasonmiles: Right now the largest user of short carbon fibres in the bike industry is Magura for their brake levers. Althoug i'm not sure where they get their material from, but i highly doubt that they would buy expensive long fibers just to cut them to bits. Maybe they use excess material from other carbon manufacturing processes.
  • 83 2
 "More cost effective" I see those savings don't trickle down to the consumer in the slightest though.
  • 15 1
 "Stronger, lighter, and more cost effective"
Not any cheaper or lighter than the catagory leaders, WAO & SC Reserve. Maybe they are stronger, but no evidence to support this claim. So, the only real difference is they are recyclable.
  • 6 4
 @MikeAzBS: those brands are industry leaders in carbon rims? Maybe WAO but not SC, and these rims are lighter and stronger than both those brands. Almost 100g lighter than a Zipp or Enve m730 rim
  • 29 1
 Man, everyone is pessimistic these days. I see this as a game changer. With machine-laid fiber, the cost will come down once the tech starts to mature.
  • 4 1
 @MikeAzBS: WR1 at least claims theirs are recyclable as well, I think thats because they also use thermoplastics? Not fully sure, but I believe so. WR1 union 29 with Cx-rays and hydras are $400 less, and about 70-80 grams less for the wheels.

Also noticed the rim only cost for WR1 is dramatically lower at $450, vs. $700.

The ride quality and strength of these revel wheels needs to be head-and-shoulders above the competition to be worth it. Not sure they are.
  • 4 1
 Good product testing video though.

youtu.be/5Be5hBu0jHo
  • 14 0
 The more cost effective statement was supposed to stay in the internal memo.
  • 5 2
 @MikeAzBS: more cost effective, so they can be made in the US. And I'm sure the price will go down over a few years as r+d and tooling gets paid for.
  • 7 0
 @nyhc00: That's some badassery riding down Horsethief Bench with snow!
  • 2 0
 @IamZOSO: For real, it gets dicey even when its dry.
  • 7 1
 @hamncheez: No kidding. I get that this isn't THE solution to the problem but it is at least a step in the right direction, can't we celebrate that and keep the momentum going?
  • 2 0
 @avg-roadie: Well, I said catagory (110-160mm) trail-enduro. I'd say SC is definitely a category leader. And Revel compares them to the M730, but with 28 Sapim D-light spokes, I'd say they compare more with the M630, which are much lighter. I didn't say they were bad wheels, but they should just point out the recyclable nature and show some testing like the SC Danny Mac vid. The price is average, the weight is average, the strength is unknown. Great warranty tho which trumps some of the others.
  • 2 1
 @MikeAzBS: I don't think the SC wheels are actually anything special, I've seen a rider break a front and rear on their first day on the bike. I think the recyclable nature is being a little misread here, Revel will take the rims back and chop them up to use into smaller parts, meanwhile, an epoxy rim is a landfill, which is industry-changing.
  • 2 1
 @avg-roadie: I basically agree with all that. I think SC starting the lifetime warranty and carbon rim compliance trend helped them make a big splash. But in general, the industry has caught up to them in those regards very quickly, making them just a decent option.
  • 5 3
 First thing that came to my mind, as they hype the significantly faster processing and reduced environmental impacts, etc....the price remains rather high, higher than some comparable rims.

Take for example Guerrilla Gravity: They developed a way to mold carbon fiber frames faster and easier, and though it's made domestically, they are still able to keep the price lower than most other carbon frames.

So yeah, I'd call this BS marketing.
  • 1 1
 @avg-roadie: umm then why are my i9 aluminum enduro rims almost the same weight as these and cost almost three times as much?
  • 4 0
 Remove “more cost effective” and insert “higher profit margins”
  • 1 0
 @IamZOSO: I wasn't sure where that was but that was impressive, very impressive riding. Dicey and icy !!
  • 5 1
 @nurseben: correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the GG price without shock and you still get a bullshit rear triangle made of aluminum?
  • 2 1
 @ChesterJ: so aluminum is bullshit, gotcha. Next?
  • 1 1
 @hamncheez: The Enve m730 has rim and tire protection built in at that weight. Essentially, it has Cush core built into that advertised weight. That’s a lot lighter than these carbon rims with Cush core added.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: The lower price of GG frames is mainly due to their "direct to consumer" sales model. There isn't much difference between GG and other DTC brands in terms of price.
  • 1 0
 @Ttimer: it’s still a big difference. That and no GG/DH :-(
  • 73 8
 Aluminum: 100% recyclable. 0% heavier. 25% of the cost.
  • 3 0
 I was thinking the same exact thing.
  • 3 12
flag chasejj (Feb 27, 2020 at 9:14) (Below Threshold)
 False. See above.
  • 5 0
 @chasejj: Please explain. I saw above.
  • 5 0
 I'm going back to aluminum for those reasons
  • 7 1
 Not 0% heavier as a rule, chicken and the egg when you throw durability in the mix. Make a super strong carbon rim and it "can" be as heavy as Aluminum. Make a super light Aluminum rim and it's gonna bend/dent too easy for most riders. A carbon and aluminum rim with the same weight will most likely result in a stronger and stiffer carbon rim. (course that can be a detriment as well... but most carbon rim makers have got to a happy medium these days.)

And even Aluminum is not always 100% recyclable. And aluminum mining and production isn't all flowers and sunshine and environmentally sound. (especially when done in countries where there are not great environmental regs. (course that can probably be said about the US under the current administration))

Anyway, other than cost it's not such an open and shut case... And lifetime carbon rim warranties offset the "total" cost to some degree.

But still, no denying the initial expense!!! What your paying for in weight difference and a most likely stiffer wheel can be very significant! (which is why I've costed, emailed, added to cart countless wheel builds/spec's; carbon, aluminum, bling, budget, etc. But am still riding mostly stock or slightly upgraded take off wheels!!! Smile )
  • 7 1
 Stiffer is not better. Example, I-9's Alum spokes with Carbon rims vs Alum DT Rim with Stainless spokes Tried both on a nice steel hardtail. One rode very nice, one beat the shit out of me.
  • 1 0
 @5poundplumbbob: Totally agree. Stiffer can mean harsher. Wheel companies are now starting to design front/rear wheel specific compliance for better ride qualities.
  • 6 0
 How about Ti? 100% recyclable. 10% lighter. 1000% MOAR COMPLIANT. Cost be damned! /s
  • 4 1
 @sngltrkmnd: I still wonder if steel hasn't come to the point that it can be competitive. Obviously extrusion isn't an option but as there is an increasing demand for low and wide rims so with less focus on radial stiffness, it could maybe be done with a roll formed profile. Or maybe an inner and outer profile welded together. Not sure but the consumer is typically willing to pay more for a (more durable yet heavier and less stiff) steel frame than for an aluminium frame so even if rim good for proper mountainbiking would be between 25% and 50% more expensive than an aluminium rim I'd probably be willing to give it a shot.

At least on heavy/strong commuter bikes the steel Van Schothorst (Ryde) rims are the more expensive option compared to the aluminium alternatives. Obviously it takes something more refined to be able to run it tubeless. As for weight? I laced one of these to a Shimano Nexus 7 speed hub using 36 plain gauge spokes (4.0mm thick). The wheel was about 3kg heavy. It was a bitch to true merely because my truing stand was bending so much Wink .
  • 2 10
flag chasejj (Feb 27, 2020 at 13:47) (Below Threshold)
 @vinay: To be brutally honest. Nobody really gives 2 f*cks. Buy what you want and ride. It's all marketing nonsense to appeal to the mountain bike huggers/ Bernie crowd.
  • 5 1
 @chasejj: I don't really give 3 f*cks whether others give 2 f*cks, it just happens to be that I haven't come across a steel rim designed for mountainbiking. You know, about 30mm inner width, for 26" tires etc. If there were, I'd be willing to try one out.
  • 9 2
 @stiingya: you just made a huge generalization. Quality alu rims from quality alloys (like high end DT Swiss) get plenty stiff above 450g/ 29” for people with reasonable BMI, while carbon rims of all sorts need similar numbers to begin being durable. Enve is not a guarantee of quality so carbon rim market is a one big hit or miss. unlike Alu rim market where almost everyone knows what is durable and what isn’t. Cheap Mavic or Easton will bend all over the place, high end Mavics, DT, Newmen won’t. When quite many pro racers stray away from carbon rims, you should know that it’s not the best thing out there. Strong does not mean durable, stiff does not mean better. Everything has it’s point of diminishing returs. For carbon rims it stops making sense outside of XC racing because at these weights alu is cheese. Not at weights where carbon reaches fundamental durability 450g+
  • 2 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Wow. Waki and I agree on one thing.
My 480g Chicom Carbon Nexties have held up amazingly well but lightweight they ain't.
But my next rims may be aluminum because CF rims when built wide and thick weigh similar to good alloy designs.
The architecture of rims which isn't frequently obsessed about makes as much diff as the wall thickness. I'm liking lower /wider designs these days.
  • 6 1
 @WAKIdesigns: To be honest I feel those solid Zipp rims are a good idea. Attempting to make a hollow carbon rim as if it were an extrusion profile is what we call "black metal design". Which implies trying to make something that is proven to work when it is made out of metal, but then make it out of carbon. The bicycle industry is still too deep into this. Zipp is pretty much the first carbon rim design I have ever seen that actually designed to the strength of the material instead merely try to deal with the weaknesses if/as used the wrong way. And I suppose those Zipp wheels will do just fine outside the XC scene. We'll see how the Lapierre enduro team fares this season.
  • 2 2
 @vinay: i feel that both zipp and cb are good because they are using really thick sidewalls.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Well the poster I was replying to made some huge generalizations so it makes sense I'd respond in kind...? Smile Your making some generalizations too. I didn't say half the stuff your alluding to. I said it's not an open and shut case/100% VS 0% other than cost and even then you have lifetime warranties to consider.

XM481 29er rim is 525gr not 450gr. Yes you can probably get a strong 21 IW rim that weights 450gr. But if you take that same amount of aluminum and extrude a 30IW rim at 450gr your most likely going to have bending/denting issues for a high percentage of riders. (which I'd assume is why they don't weight 450gr and DT Swiss makes them at 525gr)
  • 6 0
 @5poundplumbbob: "one beat the shit out of me." - Claim PTSD and you can go on full disability...ride bikes full time.
  • 2 2
 @chasejj: So you come on here trying to push some conservative political conspiracy hypothesis (not even theoretical), yet you are running Chinese carbon rims!! Anyone see the irony here? Is this an episode of South Park or what?!
  • 1 0
 @stiingya: Sorry then. It is also more nuanced, strong for what. I meant the XM421 and it's 465, could be used for DC even trail ridign for some. I made a generalization as well... yes 481 is possibly the first I would personally use for what I do and it is 525g. I wouldn't use a carbon rim lighter than 450 and considering the practicialities like using levers on stubborn tires, transporting the wheel, no way. If I was to pay this much for any rim material, I'd expect XM481 durability at 400g or less and it just doesn't happen. Opinion of mine, in absence of science... that's all we have: biggest possible volume of Anecdotal experiences. I rode EX471 for years with no issues, then I destroyed EX511 in 2 months of using it... so I am aware of limitations and there is a certain level of risk I am capable of taking. BUt this risk is no lower with carbon and repetitive problems I could not care less for lifetime warranty. I whacked a 511 rim, I can get a new one within 2 days and even if it happens again, I would need to buy 3 pieces to get inline with cheapest carbon offerings that are not some noname crap from AliExpress.
  • 1 0
 @RoadStain: I like the way you're thinking!
  • 1 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: Other than Envy or making my own or these yet unobtainable rims from Revel. Do I have a choice other than a Chicom mfg rim? Besides, when did push anything political here?
  • 2 0
 @chasejj: " when did push anything political here?"

That was when an MFG with insane prices decided that some stupid political view on a theoretical recycling policy was part of a "Value Add" to try and justify their being priced as high or higher than Enve.
  • 1 1
 @chasejj: When you said, “It’s all marketing nonsense to appeal to all the mountain bike huggers/ Bernie supporters”. That’s political propaganda. Rush Limbaugh is that you?
  • 2 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: push him a bit, he will tell you about one and only universal truth, and he happens to have learned it. He's a stoic as well. You can't argue with that.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Have you moved to Fiji or are you just on a holiday?
  • 2 0
 @vinay: I Can’t deal with Swedish West Coast winter anymore, so I decided to identify as someone living On a tropical island
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: That's clever. The mental part is half the job. I'm in a T-shirt or sleeveless all year because it helps me believe that it is nice, hot and dusty. I do have this feeling though that others who see me consider me a weirdo because of this, instead of it making them feel nice and hot too. Mental stuff works different for different people I guess. Haven't quite decided what flag has to go with my name here on PB. I understand it kind of defines what censorship you're being offered. PB was already clear that they'll censor the e-bike stuff for the North American audience. In Japan you'll have your pictures of roost and blowing up berms covered up. In China all articles stating a product is being made in Taiwan is changed into it being made in China. And soon enough the Brits will want to add tax to French (and other EU) racers times so that the British riders get a chance to be great again. At least on the score sheet they get to see. The New Zealand audience gets to see most of the PB content, but all foreign dirt needs to be removed. Only clean bikes and kit for them on PB.
  • 54 3
 Wheelset that costs more than a guerilla gravity frame?!?!?
  • 21 4
 Thats crazy since Guerrilla Gravity is also using aerospace applications
  • 7 0
 burn!
  • 1 9
flag Clem-mk (Feb 27, 2020 at 5:18) (Below Threshold)
 @Lagr1980: burn this frame to make wheels, mean you ?
  • 29 0
 When you buy a second hand set of wheels then they are being both recycled and re-cycled.... I'll see myself out.
  • 6 0
 So many warranties only apply to the original owner too, which isn’t as environmentally friendly because it encourages consumers to buy new.

Why can’t a rim be warrantied by a second or third or fourth owner? I’m looking at you Santa Cruz. No reason except to help drive sales.
  • 24 0
 I like how the wheels are only a mere $600-800 less than the bike frames they sell. What a time to be alive!
  • 20 4
 So you're using acrylic instead of epoxy as a resin, same as guerilla gravity?

Is all the marketing bullshit really nessecary?
  • 3 0
 ...and here I thought epoxy was a polymer.
  • 4 0
 Where have you been living for the last few years? This is the bike industry which eats, breathes and lives by marketing bullshit.
You can bet that their marketing budgets regularly outstrip engineering budgets by large margins.
  • 13 0
 With "big" name carbon rims, you are paying for the warranty when they inevitably break. If they were £70 like an EX511, no one would bat an eyelid when they broke. At $700, people understandably go batshit mental.

After all, $$$ = quality. Doesn't it?
  • 24 4
 I'd place my bets on the EX511 lasting longer than these rims.
  • 10 0
 EX511 all day!! Even at $140 (full retail) you bet a burly, reasonably light rim with nipples and washers included. One of my favorite rims to build with.

Oh yeah-and for the price of one of these rims I can build a set of EX511's on 350 hubs!!
  • 4 0
 @peleton7: Totally.. I've got a few DT rims now and have been MORE than impressed with the strength to weight of them. It's really awesome that they include the nice nips and washers too. I don't have any EX511's but I do have 391's and 471's Great recyclable product .
  • 5 0
 @peleton7: It's as if you are reading my mind. That combo can not be beat!
  • 2 0
 @5poundplumbbob: Crazy strong rims
  • 12 1
 Ehrm, I'll probably have to give this one a couple of reads but some things feel like they are either confusing or just wrong. You don't turn a UD carbon tape into a thermoplastic. You can use a thermoplastic matrix and then you have a carbon reinforced thermoplastic as a compositec. Or the UD tape was already a prepreg with a thermoplastic resin so you don't add anything, not sure how common that is though.

But yeah, thermoplastics are typically tougher and more impact resistant than thermoset plastics. It shouldn't have taken this long to realize this for all those composite engineers out there, you'd say?
  • 3 1
 But the strength of thermoplastic depends on its temperature a lot more. Would be good to know if that could be an issue. I once left some PLA parts in my car, wich was parked in the sun, wich warped a bit as I came back and where noticeably softer. Clearly they aren't using PLA but more information about heat resistance would be nice
  • 1 1
 DAEWOO?
  • 4 0
 @emptybox: Well yeah, that is an issue especially for a part that is continuously being loaded (like a rim loaded by both spokes and tire pressure). But then again it is just the matrix. The whole point of using long fibres is that you design so that you primarily load the fibres and don't load the matrix that much. The matrix is to keep the fibres together so it will be subject to shear. And if you have a high fibre:resin content the gap it needs to bridge is short so even if there would be some creep it wouldn't be noticeable in the product. Same with the drop in Youngs modulus (elasticity coefficient). There would be more elastic deformation under the same load but if the load path the thermoplast needs to bridge is short then say a 10% increase in deformation thereof will still lead to little deformation of the product.

Oh, PB needs a graphic comment section to help us exercise our armchair engineering Wink .
  • 1 0
 @emptybox: agreed, I'd like to hear more about temperature resistance and long term care.
  • 4 0
 Didn't GT do a thermoplastic RTS or something back in the 90's?
  • 5 0
 @twozerosix: They did. They all got recycled into wall art and furniture I think.
  • 6 0
 You are absolutely right; the author should have had a materials engineer proof-read before publishing. The paragraph on TS versus TP is full of errors and confusing. There is no such thing as a ThermoSet carbon or ThermoPlastic carbon; it's the same carbon fibers, but mixed in with either a TS or TP matrix, making it a TS or TP Composite, with a final resin content in the 35-40% range, by weight.

Both TS and TP UD Tapes are very common nowadays, with large programs in Aerospace, Satellite, Rocket, etc. industries using a variety of TS and TP tapes for various applications. There is no clear "best" material for any application, just better choices for specific applications. Any other generalization is oversimplifying a complex, yet interesting, puzzle.

Composite engineers out there generally acknowledge the higher impact properties of some TPs over Epoxies, but the processing challenges, i.e. no tack at room temp and high melt temp, make them much harder to use. There are also downsides to some TPs like mechanical properties dropping significantly with water absorption or poor chemical resistance to acetone or other volatiles present in most bike cleaning products.
  • 2 2
 @maccraz: You seem really smart. Do you have a degree?
  • 1 0
 @twozerosix: GT lobo and LTS came out in thermoplastic options. Drool worthy bikes back in the day... BUT.... I think they ALL broke. Pretty much killed the thermoplastic forray into MTB, until I read this article that is. Not sure if I’ve recovered enough from watching those GT’s explode, to buy this wheel set. That, and the insane price...
  • 2 0
 @manybrouce: I think on a long enough timeline the failure rate of all bikes is 100%
  • 1 0
 @maccraz: Yup they have tape laying robots that do TS as well so it's not just an advantage of TP. In addition, not sure if exposed uni-tape is a good idea for a part that will be expected to take impacts...
  • 1 0
 @normalsigma: Does the exposed side of the rim takes such heavy impacts. Or do you mean the inside face of the rim for when the tire hits the rim? Obviously the tire (and possibly the insert) take part of the blow. Now a weave would be ideal as armour but it is mostly an advantage against really sharp impacts and penetration. I have no experience with carbon rims but I expect an out of plane impact as mentioned would cause fibres of a typical carbon-thermoset-composit to delaminate. So you can have a weave but it is still parallel to the layer below it so that is what it separates from. So yeah, you can have a weave but it is still the matrix that fails there. If this composite here has a tougher matrix then that would imply that it is less likely to delaminate.
  • 1 0
 @emptybox: simple. They talk about Nylon or similar. That’s in the range of 600 to 700•F IIRC. PLA is probably atout 200•F
  • 1 0
 @mgibeault:
Pla melts at about 400 F and nylon at about 500 F. So they are quite similar
  • 1 0
 @emptybox: I think the main concern here was about creep and stress relaxation. Which accelerate at much lower temperature. I haven't looked at how these are different between these different thermoplasts but I think this is the metric we should look at, not just the melting temperature.
  • 12 1
 Canada produces most solid waste in the world per capita. US is 3rd. I think the problem is that we are all addicted to consumerism and the infrastructure just isn't there to support it. I buy used parts whenever I can (even tires), as most riders need perfect condition for some weird mental fixture. Long story short, I'm glad this article has sparked some chatter about our hobby, which has a serious environmental impact (from driving to the places we ride to shedding lube into our waterways on a rainy day). We can do better.

247wallst.com/special-report/2019/05/31/these-are-the-worlds-biggest-producers-of-waste
  • 7 0
 Wow - I didn't expect that.

To those of you suddenly imagining Canadians just throwing stuff away all the time: it's not that. It's driven by agricultural and industrial waste.

Canada makes and exports a bunch of stuff that creates waste in its production.

If you look at municipal solid waste (aka, the stuff individuals throw away at home), we're #1 and Canada is #2: www.statista.com/statistics/689809/per-capital-msw-generation-by-country-worldwide
  • 2 4
 @atourgates: Okay, okay. I thought that when Al Gore invented the internet he said that everything on it had to be 100% true. As for what "we" toss or 'they" toss....well, I have traveled the "third" world. Africa, Asia, China....NOTHING, I mean NOTHING I do is going to stop China, India, Africa....maybe some will want to go to Chengdu and hug a panda and claim that is China (been there, done that, got bit). Until some of the third world cares to care, I will continue on with my first world problems and simply not worry about every drop of gasoline that goes into my car, or every KWh that burns on my electric meter that spins like a meat slicer at the deli.
  • 8 0
 If I purchased rims that's are 700 $ each I would expect the rims to last ten years minimum . Recycling would not be part of the equation. BTW Treck had thermoplastic frames that was more than ten years ago.
So I'm waiting for rims to reach 1000$ each . Imagine how recyclable those will be!
  • 11 1
 "Composites that he claimed was stronger, lighter,..." Yet here we have another heavy carbon wheelset. 1840g (29er)
  • 8 0
 I feel like recyclability shouldn’t be a feature...
It’s should just be common practice. I guess good on them for trying, but my aluminum ex511’s are still lighter. Soooo
  • 4 0
 Amen to that dude. Recyclability shouldn't be something that's NOW just making it's way into the vernacular of the outdoor industry.
  • 6 0
 In a perfect world (one that each of us has to take steps to work towards), these will go back to the manufacturer and be turned into other products, which as far as I see it, is a step in the right direction.
Instead of saying "it is recyclable!" and leaving it to you to figure out how, Revel is saying "WE will recycle this!" I for one am really excited to see a company acknowledge that and take steps to reduce the impact of consumerism that they, by definition, take part in.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
  • 5 0
 Got a question for everyone, what do you think of my idea: scrap the whole ride-feel aspects of wheels. Build them as light and stiff and strong as possible. Focus instead on the tire. Designing an entirely new tire/interface whereby all the aspects of traction, rolling resistance, and high frequency dampening are addressed. With tire inserts becoming a real thing, exposing a big flaw in the current paradigm yet not being approached in a holistic and systematic way, I think it proves that this is the future. You can't control for all the variances in wheel design, current tires, inserts, and then the overall suspension of the bike. Reduce it to main suspension, and tires. Am I crazy?
  • 1 0
 It comes down to what companies core competencies are. There are a not a lot of companies that design and manufacturer an entire wheels ecosystem, let alone in consideration of a bikes suspension. Too many variables at play and a big pretty business risk to limit a product's compatibility.
  • 5 0
 I would say let's focus on how the product performs - as with numerous other comments here in this forum - the recycling is "hook" to draw people in and make them feel better about themselves. It's like anything - the more advantages you have for product the more likely marketers think they are to sell it.
  • 6 0
 Some thermoplastic resins craze and weaken in contact with solvents like ammonia, which is in Stan's sealant. I sure hope they did their homework and chose a resin that is compatible with sealants.
  • 6 0
 "More cost effective" yet still cost as much or more than most other carbon brands. I get that they are made in the USA and it's new technology but...........
  • 4 0
 These people dont give a damn about the environment. If they did we would all still be riding 26"ers. Instead they pushed 27.5 and now that we all have 27.5 the new push is 29er. F'n hypocrites.Btw, I'm assuming all those obsolete 26ers got properly recycled instead of ending up in the landfill! Yeah right.
  • 3 0
 I still see people riding 26" bikes all the time. Presumable the people that had to have the newest marketing trend sold their old bikes.

I know this could be controversial to some, but it is possible to buy a second hand bike and not only ride it, but to love it.
  • 4 1
 Is it just me or is this more or less the same thing We Are One is doing, except more expensive? WR1 I think is layed up by hand, so there are differences, but seemingly even the beadless hook, rim profile, no need for finishing, and material is super similar. Is material similar? I believe WR1 is also thermoplastic, is that right?
  • 1 0
 The decal placement is very familiar
  • 3 0
 Lightbikes carbon rims, same weight, $170-190 per rim and they still make them in 26”. I just built some 26 x 40i LB rims for 26+ x 2.8 wheels that are 1350g build weight with Berd spokes and extralite hubs for around $1,200.
  • 3 0
 $2,200 for a wheelset!, your all smokin crack. I don't care what it's made from. Carbon isn't all that it's made out to be, BUT if your stupid enough to pay for it. I'm glad to see that Revel figured out the secret crabby patty formula that will revolutionize the carbon wheel industry. Go buy a nice set of Hunt alloy wheelset for ~$500 and please stop this nonsense.
  • 4 1
 It's kinda funny that fully recyclable rims have been around for aaages, but aluminium rims just aren't new or sexy enough for marketing departments to spend $/£/€ on development for the ideal ride characteristics
  • 8 6
 Pinkbikers: We want less waste, more recyclable, more environmentally friendly products with lifetime warranties AND a good price!

*recyclable, relatively competitive priced carbon wheel set with lifetime warranty comes out*

Also Pinkbikers: This is stupid! I can buy Reserves that weigh only 70g less for basically the same price AND my new Hightower CC frame every year because the color changed and I don’t want my friends to think I’m not cool anymore all for a measly $5200! Get with the program manufactures!

Lol
  • 6 0
 Sounds nearly the same as guerrilla Gravity's revved carbon.
  • 2 0
 From what I remember (very little), traditional CFRP is more down-cyclable than it is "re-"cyclable (Which IIRC, is the case with most polymer-based products).
I learned that; essentially the old, good but broken or in some way distorted carbon fibre products would mostly be turned in to pellets which would be used for things like brake levers (Magura) or other simple parts which required a good strength to weight ratio.

Sadly, posting this comment has made me realize how much I've already forgotten.
  • 6 2
 Big thanks to Revel for putting their at-risk capital toward developing a product to put us on the path toward sustainability.
  • 2 0
 When we have problem recycling even water bottles, we say "Thanks but no thanks". It's not as easy as pushing a 'Recycle' button on a machine.

www.businessinsider.my/malaysia-return-plastic-trash-rich-countries-us-france-canada-uk-2020-1?r=US&IR=T
  • 2 0
 I dont see a reason for the hate. They're competitive with Santa Cruz reserve wheels for price, they're allegedly more compliant, and they're backed by the same no fault guarantee. The fact that they recycle their own product is just the cherry on top. The price tag is too steep for me to buy the rims or wheels alone, but these rims come stock on some of revel's builds that rival SC's pricing, PLUS theyll ship your new bike to you in a new EVOC bike bag. I'm actively saving for a Revel Rail!
  • 22 17
 We need the grimm donut.....
  • 4 1
 The only frame I have ever cracked was a GT Thermoplastic frame I am sure the R and D has come a long way but for me I am going to stick to traditional carbon fibre.
  • 1 0
 Recycling part aside, which is absolutely a great thing if they handle it all themselves and actually follow through (and provide some proof/metrics of landfill saved at some point), I still think Ibis S28 is the best deal in carbon rims for this class (1580g, 32 spokes, $1,800). I’m curious why all the comparisons are always to WaO, SC, and ENVE when Ibis seems to have them beat on paper and I haven’t seen any tirades/reports about exploding Ibis rims.
  • 2 0
 Hard to accept the "lighter and more cost-effective" line for a $2200, 1840gm (29) wheelset. That's more than double the cost of many lighter wheels (i.e. Giant). What a crock.
  • 1 0
 Sorry to criticize, but there are some detail that need correcting. In your "thermoset" description you've mashed up prepreg carbon techniques and resin-infused carbon techniques (I'm leaving out wet layup, because I don't think anyone does that anymore).

In prepreg layup, the carbon sheets come preimpregnated with epoxy (hence "prepreg"). They are put in the mold, then heated to cure the epoxy. Prepreg carbon sheets typically need to be stored refrigerated because the epoxy cure rate is a function of temperature - warmer is faster. You can't stop it completely. Epoxy isn't added in this process.

In resin infused techniques, neat carbon sheets are added to the mold, then they are infused with epoxy resin, then heated to cure. These don't need to be refrigerated because the carbon is clean, and the two parts of the epoxy resin are not mixed until right before they are infused into the carbon layup.
  • 1 0
 Anyone else besides me have a ~1998 GT LTS or STS back in the day with the thermoplastic carbon frame? Loved that bike. It was the one that made me a believer in long-travel full suspension. Miss this guy: www.bikerecyclery.com/1998-gt-sts-1000-ds-frame-thermoplastic-carbon-fiber-rockshox-super-deluxe-rare
  • 1 0
 The LTS in it's day, compared to everything else, rode really well.. I serviced a TON of those bikes.. the only two downfalls were that damn upper shock mounting clip and the pivot bushing at the rear wheel.
  • 1 0
 Thermoplastics are used in almost every day life whether you know it or not. They are common because they can be easily processed, reheated and processed again. This is due to the use of secondary bonds which can break once heated and remelt. Thermoset materials are cross-linked which are much harder to break and result in material degradation before melting.

There are several problems with this marketing strategy..........

Thermoplastic materials change their mechanical properties with every heat cycle. Depending on this heat cycle (and cooling), different crystal growth will occur resulting in different mechanical properties. This implies that if the materials are in fact recycled, every part you receive will be different and may in-turn be weaker then anticipated. The material is not indefinably recyclable for parts where strength and ductility are needed.
  • 3 0
 y'all broke crybabies trying to kid yourself that alloy rims are better, have obviously never been on carbon rims before. Nobody NEEDS them, but they sure are great.
  • 1 0
 Wow ok. A lot of interesting feedback but lets break it down and put it into perspective:

Recycling: They are formed from recycled carbon and can be later re-recycled. If you don't believe in recycling, then don't but you're a part of the problem not the solution because everything helps.

Price: They cost the same as competing on the market so why bother. Look at the whole picture! You are getting made in the USA rims that are recyclable and have a lifetime warranty.

Warranty doesn't mean anything: It means everything. This is a small company offering lifetime warranty. You don't think that's a big risk?! This means they stand by their product to be strong. Don't judge the product before you even use it. Five years from now, you can have an opinion.

Aluminum vs. Carbon: If you are a diehard aluminum rim rider, that's your preference! Have you tried every single rim out there and have developed a thorough conclusion that carbon rims are not for you? Then you have chosen ignorance because heres a new one that you could enjoy but choose to stick to what you know. Nothing wrong with that but that opinion doesn't apply here. It applies to those asking whether to ride carbon or Aluminum rims.

In the end I think people need to stop nit-picking the details and look at the whole package. In the end don't knock it before you try it. You never know what you're missing out on until you choose to miss out.
  • 3 1
 Worlds most expensive wheel build. I could buy rims and hubs separate and have the shop build them up for significantly less.
  • 2 0
 really? I'm reading this as $700 per rim, i.e. $1400, + $700 to $800 or more for the Hydra hubs, plus spokes, nipples and labour, and I really don't see it coming in 'significantly less'
  • 1 1
 No crank brothers synthesis and enve m90 still top this. Remember enve is still $2899
  • 2 0
 Took 12 seconds for me to find a set of new hydras for a little over 600. I certainly exaggerated a bit but compared to offerings from other companies the price of the wheel build is certainly high.
  • 1 0
 @arden0: could be less if you're building up on hope hubs from CRC?
  • 2 1
 There are a lot of solid CF wheels the days, but few that stand out from the crowd. Nothing wrong with these but I see no advantages compared to many other similar products. Good luck to them.
  • 5 2
 LMFAO I'll look for a good used carbon wheelset for the price of one of these rims. That's how you actually recycle.
  • 3 0
 Why not use recycled materials to begin with? But you had to open a can of worms here!
  • 6 3
 FINALLY I can virtue signal with my rims.

*throws bike over Tacoma tailgate and burns a gallon of gas to the trailhead*
  • 2 0
 I read “cost effective” somewhere, as in for the company or for our wallets? Lifetime still for e13 and half this price, Lifetime for WeROne and still half this price.
  • 4 0
 At least Pole doesn’t have an excuse not to use carbon fibre anymore.
  • 3 0
 Sorry for beating a dead horse but it is driving me nuts how no one lists rim weight anymore.
  • 1 0
 They DO NOT want you to know that number.. All you need to know is Carbon is better.
  • 3 0
 Rim weights are 440g for 27.5 and 480g for 29er - One cool thing about our manufacturing is that these weights are consistent every time a rim is made, unlike traditional thermoset that has some +/- variation

some more details over at: www.revelbikes.com/our-bikes/revel-wheels
  • 1 0
 @RevelBikes: I have a clutch cover on my KTM by a company called Carbon Up in Colorado. Similar tech?
  • 3 0
 @RevelBikes: thanks! Seems respectable for an enduro rim
  • 2 0
 I'm curious what is "new" about this thermoplastic vs the Specialized and Scott bars, GT LTS1 that were all made of this stuff back in the mid 90's.
  • 3 0
 This isn't new tech for the bike industry... GT made thermoplastic carbon frames with aluminum lugs in the late 90s
  • 1 0
 Aluminum is infinitely recyclable. If companies were truly concerned with the environment and the act of recycling they would discontinue the use of carbon/epoxy/plastic. I'll continue riding aluminum products.
  • 4 3
 Unless they’re made of metal or plastics 1-2 then they’re NOT recyclable. Unless revel has their very own recycling plant dedicated to recycling carbon at a loss
  • 8 1
 They handle the recycling themselves. And they’ll pay for shipping on the broken wheels and the new replacement wheels. Sez right there in the text.
  • 4 1
 @NickBit: they also claim these are more cost effective yet at $700 per rim are more expensive then many of their competitors.
  • 2 0
 If they were $1200 they'd be cost effective, and a seriously competitor for WAO or Reserves, but at $2200 they are just recyclable Enves.
  • 1 0
 @onemind123: I’m not saying that they are perfect. Just pointing out that your question was answered in the text. (No idea if they make a loss but I doubt they make a profit on the recycling side)

I like the idea of an American made recyclable rim but your point about the price is valid. At least they are offering a different product for that kind of money. There are a whole lot of fairly Indistinguishable Chinese made carbon rims, at many different price points, to choose from at the moment.
  • 3 0
 I prefer my wheels in one piece and no need to be recycled
  • 2 3
 From stuff I've read in the past the real problem could be Revel's after sales service as they are notoriously difficult to get hold of for anything. Again Not experience, but what i've read in a number of places... also, doesn't standard testing include Danny Mac piling them into granite steps without tires on? Now that was marketing genius, I bet their sales went through the roof after that video came out!
  • 5 1
 bit heavy for me.
  • 4 0
 PBros aren't impressed!
  • 1 0
 Grim Rim!! 30mm internal, aluminum construction. Maybe have H Plus Son make them to keep the quality Asian manufacturing theme going.
  • 3 1
 So much for more cost effective.. $2,200 for a wheelset still isnt cost effective for 80-90% of people.
  • 3 0
 Recyclable in bicycling, the jokes write themselves here!
  • 1 0
 I doubt anything carbon fiber gets "recycled". It just gets thrown in the garbage because its the easiest thing to do.
  • 3 0
 Any rim can be recycled into a hula hoop.
  • 2 0
 isn't everything an "advanced polymer"?

whatever happened to LeMond composites, btw?
  • 1 2
 See where it's made? Is it just me, or I am the only one that thinks this is a way for ENVE to try out a yet-to-be-market-tested product without having to put their name on it if it turns out to be a flop. The price certainly suggests it. Who knows, might turn out to be awesome.
  • 1 1
 So they’re using rims to test a new-to-the-bike-industry material in the hope that it ends up being useful for frame manufacturing as well, in which all of the noted attributes would have a pretty significant impact. Cool!
  • 1 0
 I hope this lot of thermoplastic is better than what was used in the "90s" in Mantis,Gt etc
Unfortunately not as strong as epoxy long term
  • 2 0
 GT did Thermoplastic carbon fibres back in the late 90's with their LTS and STS frames.
  • 3 1
 So for the illusion of “recycling” they can charge the “woke” crowd an extra $$$ grand. Serves them well.
  • 4 1
 $2200 USD hahaha. Ah that made my day.
  • 2 1
 Guys what about recyclable Red Bull cans? The same aluminum product, just they have a recycling logo on them, so they cost a few hundred more! How about it!?!
  • 2 0
 Wonder if I can recycle my old thermoplastic GT STS frame into a set of these rims?
  • 3 0
 how is 2200 more cost-effective?
  • 7 5
 Recyclable, another one soon to be sitting in the dumps forever!
  • 2 0
 Fence needs painting. or is it a wooden berm?
  • 2 0
 Plastic rims revel a real sense here.
  • 2 2
 If I crack a traditional thermoset CF frame / wheels there are many guys I can take it to to have it fixed. Will this be possible with a thermoplastic frame / wheels?
  • 3 1
 At that price, no thank you...
  • 2 0
 We’ll recyclable but is it environmental friendly.....TBD...
  • 5 4
 I may be selfish, but the last thing on my mind when buying expensive wheels is what happens to them when Im done with them.
  • 7 0
 Now replace I with (almost) everybody and expensive wheels with (almost) anything and you get a good picture of the problems we face.
  • 1 1
 @likehell: whose we? Humans?
  • 3 0
 @owlie: We and the world we are a part of until we find another one. Wink
  • 3 1
 No we are all on the same page. For those of us that have the money to shell out. The first on our minds is “what is the turn around time to get a new rim or wheel?”

In terms of environmental impact, people seem to fail to realize aluminum, steel, or titanium ISN’T 100% recyclable. There’s still energy required to normalize or put said metal back to an annealed state. Then there’s energy required to melt it all down and reprocess it via extrusion or pour.

As long as the alloy rim has not been sheared or bent, it is 100% reusable and resell able. Carbon for this to be true is a life time accidental damage from riding (ADR). and if you are selling it, you and the new owner best be in the same state for a fast turnaround.
  • 1 1
 @likehell: Did I just get Eco Bro'd? What part of this luxury sport is sustainable? We ride these plastic fantastic toys for fun.
  • 3 0
 @Happypanda1337: aluminum rims have always been recyclable, so this ain't so novel.

I can swap a new aluminum rim for $60-75 depending on brand and style, usually burn up a rear rim once or twice a year, fronts tend to last longer unless I do something really stoopid.

This CF is really all about giving dentists something to spend money on when they're too busy working to go ride.
  • 1 2
 @nurseben: Most everyone I ride with has CF wheels. None are dentists.Do you peel the peel the decals off your bent hoop before you recycle it?
  • 3 0
 @owlie: I peel the decals off when I get them usually. That shit is tacky as hell. I own the rim, I don't need to look down at it to remind myself what it is.
  • 3 0
 @owlie: No mate, it was just a general remark, nothing against you.
I think we can make it more sustainable by riding stuff longer and thinking more about what we buy and from whom.

But anyhow, sorry for preaching haha!
  • 3 2
 $2200 get the fk out ! Who will pay this and why do we need another carbon wheel ?
  • 2 0
 buys carbon rims *recycles them*
  • 2 0
 I just want my Tuff Wheels back.
  • 2 0
 I’m waiting for compostable rims..
  • 1 0
 That would be amazing! Hmmmm...
  • 3 1
 I guess GG's secret is out of the bag
  • 2 0
 I ride my rims until they taco, or crack. Does that count as Re-Cycling?
  • 1 0
 profits on bike industry are sooo good that even aerospace Nasa and spaceship makers come to this market big LOL
  • 2 1
 Someone's never worked in the bike industry.... or has any clue what tooling for mouldmaking costs up front.

Once these guys sell 500+ wheelsets and they've recouped their costs, I bet they drop their price a bit, but I doubt we'll ever see a wheelset like this for under $1800 USD.
  • 1 0
 @techride:

yes never worked on this industry but have a clue on a bigger picture.
work very close to a factory on heavy machinery and margins are very small.
on another scale just for example, a motorbike needs the triple! on molds just for the engine! and compare prices to bicycles!
maybe a pair of motorbike rims cost 3000 but has to withstand 200hp 180mph.
bicycles industry are on a stratospheric level
  • 2 0
 @machuqueiro: look at economies of scale, though. Anybody making high end motorcycle rims has a MUCH larger market than a boutique bike brand might. Plus, processing a single warranty return in the way Revel has outlined would undoubtedly eat of most (if not all) the profit margin on the original sale. What Revel is offering is a lifetime promise of labour, shipping, recycling and a product made by trained American staff. No motorcycle wheel manufacturer I can think of has a warranty like this... is there one?
  • 1 0
 “Claimed was stronger, lighter, MORE COST-EFFECTIVE , could be made in America.... yet $2200.
  • 1 0
 I’ve seen no comment about the picture with a rim that looks like it’s dented in two places?!?
  • 2 0
 new fangled z rims?
  • 1 1
 Lifetime warranty, free shipping and replacements whilst they recycle your old rims, WORLDWIDE or just backyard?
  • 3 0
 Soon to be in dumps someplace in Asia!
  • 1 2
 Lip service in order to sell a product that does nothing new and is nothing new, so yeah, utter nonsense. Move along, nothing to see here ...
  • 1 1
 We would take care of you wherever you are in the world!
  • 1 3
 @RevelBikes: I appreciate the fact that you’ll take care of a buyer; at $700 per rim I expect that, but this only matters if they fail.

So I’m spending $700 per rim because they’re gonna fail? I kinda figured that paying more guarantees they won’t fail.

See that’s the thing with your guarantee, you aren’t really guaranteeing no failure, you’re just replacing rims that fail.

I’d rather have a rim that doesn’t fail.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: We will be out your way in June if you want to come ride them!
  • 4 2
 use aluminum rims only
  • 5 0
 Agreed, plastic rims at seven times the cost, ya gotta be stoopid, rich, or both
  • 2 1
 Props to Revel. Y'all are dumb.
  • 1 0
 These wheels must be examples of a circular economy
  • 1 0
 Hopefully it works out better than the old GT and Yeti Thermoplastic days.
  • 1 0
 Will this be making it into the Revel Bikes frames?
  • 3 3
 The very definition of great company.
  • 1 1
 Greta still does not like this.
  • 2 2
 Honestly....nobody needs plastic rims ....I cant get the hype , sorry.
  • 2 5
 Wouldn't too bad if they were carbon FIBRE,not Carbon Fiber.
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