Last year, we looked into
Revel Bikes, at that time a new company started by a few industry veterans. Following the launch of two trail bikes, Revel has now released a 100% recyclable and US-made carbon rim that's manufactured in a much different way than traditional carbon bike parts. Revel is calling this method "Fusion-Fiber" technology, and it was developed by an aerospace facility in southern Utah.
Revel's founder, Adam Miller, met Joe Stanish of CSS Composites back in 2010 when Stanish was still VP of Operations at ENVE, but it wasn't until last year that things came together. In 2019, Joe approached Revel with the idea of utilizing a new material that was being developed at CSS Composites that he claimed was stronger, lighter, more cost-effective, could be made in America, and is 100% recyclable. Stanish wanted to partner with Revel to introduce the first bicycle rims made of this material, and Fusion-Fiber was born.
Revel RW30 Details• Intended use: All-mountain / enduro
• Double-wall Fusion Fiber rim
• 28 hole, 3-cross lacing
• 35mm external, 29mm internal width
• Hub: Industry Nine Hydra, 690 P.O.E.
• Weight: 1,840-grams (29") / 1,730-grams (27.5")
• Rims available individually, 28/32h ($700)
• Laid up and molded in Gunnison, Utah, USA
• Lifetime warranty
• Price: $2,200 USD / $700 rim only
•
www.revelbikes.com | What really got my attention was that the material was 100% recyclable.—Adam Miller |
On the surface, the rims don't look all that different than any others out there. They're made with the same material as a traditional thermoset carbon rim, but a second glance shows that the material is quite different: The epoxy used in a thermoset rim is absent, and the binding agent in its place is an advanced polymer; picture nylon holding the strands of carbon together.
The rims are available as a wheelset with either Industry Nine's 101 or Hydra hubs in both 27.5" and 29" versions, and also as a rim-only in 28 or 32 hole drilling patterns. The wheels I'm testing are the 29" version on Industry Nine's Hydra hubs, weigh 1,840-grams on my scale, and sell for $2,200 USD. Going with the 101 hubs will lose you a little bit of engagement and $300 from the price, or you can pick up a bare rim for $700.
Thermoset vs ThermoplasticBefore we discuss the rims themselves, let's look at the basic differences in thermoset and thermoplastic materials. Put simply, both utilize the same fibers but a very different glue.
Thermoset materials include nearly everything you can think of that we traditionally call carbon fiber. That goes for frames, rims, and other components. The process for making a thermoset product involves taking sheets of carbon fiber which, in this case, are held together with a two-stage epoxy that acts as the matrix (AKA glue). The fibers are laid down into the mold, epoxy is added to the equation, and then it's cooked. Once cured, the carbon is set and cannot be changed, which is where the name "thermoset" comes from. Thermoset carbon has a finite shelf life and must be kept at certain temperatures, usually in a refrigerator, before use in laying up a product and adding the epoxy.
Thermoplastics also use strands of carbon, but the way that they're laid up is different. The fibers start similar to a thermoset carbon, as a raw unidirectional tape, but are then turned into a thermoplastic by using a polymer to act as the matrix (glue) and hold things together. There are also various advanced polymer recipes that can be used depending on the application. The polymer-based glue can be melted back down into a liquid state and formed or recycled into other products as many times as desired. Thermoplastics are typically less brittle, more ductile, and more flexible than epoxies. There are countless uses outside of bike products; for instance, airplanes utilize thermoplastics in various components. Thermoplastic carbon is stable and has an infinite shelf life, and it doesn't need to be refrigerated before final construction to maintain its integrity.
Anything that is currently made of traditional thermoset carbon fiber could be made with a thermoplastic, but the cost and availability of equipment to produce products have been the biggest limiting factor.
Fusion-Fiber RimsFusion-Fiber is a product used by Revel for their rims, much like how Gore-Tex is used and licensed by many different companies to make various products. Revel's Fusion-Fiber thermoplastic rims are constructed in a very similar fashion to a traditional thermoset rim as far as laying up carbon goes. There are fibers laid out in various directions that are then stamped into a bias-ply sheet, similar to how you would stamp and form metal. The difference is that Revel is using a robot instead of laying things up by hand, thereby removing the variability of human error. The machine can also put down one layer per second.
The materials are then fused together with Fusion-Fiber, whereas traditional thermoset components are epoxied and cured. This means that there is no material waste or burn-off in the process, and unused fibers can be chopped up and remolded. There are also no added chemicals. The Fusion-Fiber layers are flash-welded together with electricity, a process that takes between twenty and sixty seconds.
The process of using the Fusion-Fiber sheets for manufacturing the rim is something Revel isn't keen on sharing with the world, but the basic (and over-simplified) process involves pieces of thermoplastic put into the mold and flash-welded into a rim. The rim then goes through three different heating and cooling steps, and requires no sanding, clear coat, or paint when it pops out of the mold.
RecyclabilityOne of the notable drawbacks to traditional thermoset carbon fiber is excess or damaged products are difficult to recycle - when a thermoset frame or rim reaches the end of its life cycle, it's typically trash. While it can be done in some cases, it's said to be not as cost-effective as starting from scratch, which leads to a lot of waste. There are also hazardous byproducts produced in the manufacturing process.
Being a thermoplastic, Fusion-Fiber is claimed to be easily recycled. CSS, the company that makes Fusion-Fiber, can recycle it themselves by chopping it up into smaller pieces and melting it down to form parts that use short fibers, like stems and other small components. Everything is said to be easily and infinitely re-moldable into something else, whether it's in the bike industry or elsewhere.
Joe Stanish, COO of CSS claims they have full control over the recycling process of the material. They say this allows them to know exactly what they're getting, and that it's of much higher quality than mass-recycled plastics that can have all sorts of variances in them.
RW30 WheelsMy test wheels are the RW30s, the only model that's currently offered, but Revel will have different options in the future.
Thermoplastics are claimed to offer some differences in ride quality that can be seen as advantages. The material handles impacts somewhat differently by giving what Revel and CSS claim to be over 50% more vertical deflection in impacts without sacrificing any lateral stiffness. If true, they should offer a stiff but not harsh ride quality. With a thermoset rim, it's difficult to design the wheel in a way that allows more vertical compliance without sacrificing lateral stability - it's inherent in the way the epoxies harden.
According to Revel, the polymer in the thermoplastic flexes in a smaller region for a given impact, whereas almost a third of the wheel flexes with a thermoset rim for the same impact. That's said to help with the stability while also offering that vertical compliance, as well as being quiet and durable in the case of rock strikes.
Revel and CSS didn't stray too far from convention with the RW30 wheels, going with a standard double-wall design rim that they say offers an excellent ride quality when paired with the Fusion-Fiber. The internal rim width of the RW30 is 29mm and aimed at aggressive trail and enduro riding.
All of the rims are covered by a lifetime warranty that includes Revel paying for shipping and handling should anything happen. It also covers getting a loaner set while your new wheels are built up and the old rims are recycled.
The rims use a traditional double-wall design but coming out of the mold, there is little work to be done as they don't need paint, clearcoat, or anything else.
First ImpressionsI've only had the RW30 wheels out on a couple of short rides at this point. Mounting up tires was straight forward, and I had zero issues airing up with a standard floor pump. In my time on the trail, I can confirm that they deliver in terms of stiffness and compliance, and I've had zero issues with anything otherwise. The wheels do seem to do a good job of damping trail chatter, especially at high speeds, and there is something unique about the way they ride compared to other carbon wheels that I've been on.
Long-term use is yet to be seen, but we'll provide an update once I put a lot more miles on them.
“All of the rims are covered by a lifetime warranty that includes Revel paying for shipping and handling should anything happen. It also covers getting a loaner set while your new wheels are built up and the old rims are recycled.“
Inevitably, they will all still end up in a dump once some new technology comes along.
Companies that don’t recycle don’t need you send their broken product back.
I would imagine the dream scenario from Revel here is: During manufacturing, we (they) are able to recycle more manufacturing byproducts than any other carbon wheel manufacturer. These wheels are strong and you probably won't break them. We stand behind that with a lifetime warranty. If you return them to us, we will give you a new wheel (probably made from some recycled carbon) and recycle the old one.
Never mind paying $700US for a rather generic looking rim design.
www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-news
It's more work, but if ethical consideration is your thing then think about country of origin as well. If you can get your part from a source not located overseas, that's one less thing to fill another cargo ship that has to plow across the ocean burning 200 tons of bunker fuel per day.
Probably not the structural elements though, am I wrong?
Still, thermoplastics are not used in structural elements of planes are they?
Just that the article’s introductory paragraph states that thermoplastics are good, and support this with the claim that they are used in aerospace. I’m sure they are, but there are many different applications within aerospace. Planes even have paper on them (sick bags, toilet paper, tissues) but we would not use this as evidence to support a suggestion that paper would be a good material for making bike wheels.
It strikes me as as a bit irrelevant without specific details of application.
So, before I moved to FL I lived in Snow Land...the city replaced all the stop lights with the LED's...know what they dont do? Melt snow or ice due to not creating heat. There were hundreds of accidents due to the lights being covered in snow. From there the MFG and on and on and and on....They, in the end, are far worse, and I have never not once ever had one last over a year. I do out of my way to find Incandescent bulbs for all applications.
I'm just had it up to here with eco-consumerism or environmentalism as a marketing strategy. I'm also a curmudgeon before I get a coffee into me in the morning.
To me, a $2200 carbon fibre wheel set should be sold for what it is. A luxury item bought by people with carbon footprints the size of Shaq. And I wouldn't judge anyone for that. I like new things too.
For the people who do try to make it their business, they can start in China, India and other places where something such a catalytic converter is new fangled. Or, go to Africa and keep the kids from using torches while cutting the lids off of 50-gallon drums to make authentic African "art" for the tourists (barefoot).
Quick example: www.compositesworld.com/blog/post/injection-overmolded-composites-demo-comes-to-conclusion
There isn't a better material to rule them all though. Different applications with different criterias will be better off with a TS or a TP, and there are dozens of each to choose from. Just like there are hundreds of alloys for a variety of structural applications. You won't use wood for a exhaust pipe, and you won't use glass for a baseball bat. Different properties for different uses.
One thing I love about PB is that in amongst all the inane pubescent teen comments, there are people with real knowledge!
When Standard Oil in the USA dropped the cost of oil to consumers by over 90%, it ended the whaling industry. Disease from livestock was more environmentally harmful to people than cars. Now that the car industry is mature, disruptors like Tesla are helping us move away from oil.
Revel is a small company, and their rims are going to sell even less than their bikes (for now; I'd love for them to grow and challenge the big boys). However, they are proving that the CSS technology is viable in the market, and hopefully it will allow bike manufacturing to move away from thermosets to thermoplastics.
I'm cynical because they haven't gone into much depth explaining how they recycle the rims at the end of their useful life as part of a wheel and because of the price, that frankly doesn't reflect either an automated production line or the true value of the reclamation process.
Although I admire my namesake's outlook with regards to carbon and costing.
Now, in an effort to save the earth some of the suburbs install normal bulbs in the winter (arriving with multiple F350 trucks and booms). Then in the spring put back in the LED's (that seem to always have most of the LED's non-functional). They were talking about the heaters, the housings were not designed for them.
TCO is outlandish...but, hey Chicago, they get the government they deserve (then, the leaders go to prison). Plus, the power there is all Nuke plants, the hippie-liberal-tree-huggers are out of their free range organic gourds.
Know why a hole in the ozone was found? We went looking. So, now how do we stop plate tectonics and volcanoes? How about hurricanes and tornadoes? These are facts. Lightbulbs saving earth? Delusional theory.
Other than that, there is a consensus among scientists that we are warming up the planet, it’s undeniable because it is so easy to measure. Get your head out of your bum. We all due it at some point, no matter the issue. I see no correlation between Leds and humans warming up the planet. As to what comes out of this warming it’s a completely different story. It’s scenarios. Nobody knows what EXACTLY will happen. Just estimates. One thing is sure, many people consume way too much shit and it harms them directly
2. Science does not prove theories. It supports or disproves.
3. Humans are adaptable. They literally walked around the world from Africa. The Pacific Islands were populated by people who sailed in canoes made from hollowed out logs from Asia. If they can do that, they can get on a plane and move... Not that they would have to because according to what I read in Nat Geo, some Pacific aslands are shrinking, some are stable and some are growing.
3. There are positives to climate change.
4. There is a lot of hyperbole and dare I say it hysteria in the media. Every storm, every flood, gets blamed on climate change. Sorry, I mean the "climate Emergency" (!)
The media seems to get fixated on a certain subject for a cycle of several years. It reminds me of when I got home from backpacking and every day the news was carrying a story of some act of terrorism which had been "carried out by a terrorist group with links to all Qaeda". It was as ridiculous at the time as what we have now with the global warming bollocks.
The only problem is, news leads the masses, they all start bleating the same shit, and suddenly a theory becomes a fact and you need to be chastised if you dare to even question any of it.
There is no singular truth regarding any subject in life. And that's a fact.
Odd note: not a single gas friendly car at the trail head. I think my 6cyl may be the most efficient. Most are jeeps with huge tires....environmentalists I am sure.
You’re right about recyclable materials going to landfills but it’s not because of lack of demand, it’s because of the poor quality of the recycling facilities’ output, it’s unusable commercially because of contamination. We have to invest heavily in these facilities.
Do we affect the climate? I don't know. Some people say we do, some say we don't. Let's for the sake of argument say the majority is right. Then the next question I ask myself is, do I care? Yes, I care. Next question - do I care enough to do anything about it? Not really. Do I think the population of the world is of the collective mind to do something about it even if everyone believed it and started to care about it enough to change their lives enough to do anything about it? No. I don't.
The climate is going to change whether we like it or not. Humans will not exist indefinitely. Eventually our species will become extinct. They question is only when. Is the entire population going to stop consuming, stop flying, stop eating meat, stop buying iPhones, stop driving cars, because it wants to save the planet (which is actually code for save the species)? I doubt it. I'm not going to be the only mug eating a plant based diet and going on holiday at an eco resort. Travelling to work on three electric buses instead of driving my own car, and walking two miles to the nearest phone box only to find out they removed the phone in 1993.
I like having 2-3 showers a day and I'm not going to stop doing that until I die.
All the Thumbergers in the world can suck a bag of dicks as far as I'm concerned.
seriously? 1+1 = 2 that's a fact. the earth is not flat. also a fact. lot's of "singular truths" out there. stop trying to claim that anything you don't like isn't a fact. facts don't give a shit about your feelings or political leanings.
the fact that many species will go extinct due to human caused climate change is wrong. the fact that every coastal city is going to be badly flooded is wrong. the fact that tons of droughts and famines will be caused is wrong.
burying your head in the sand isn't the right response.
That is all the proof anyone needs to know that the "sky is foaling" scenarios are propaganda being spewed to distract the mob. One thing banks won't do is lose money, all their jobs depend on this.
.
The media would have us believe everything is racist, when in reality I don't think many people discriminate on grounds of race. Probably culture is a more likely cause for discrimination, in western countries at least.
Right and wrong are very loaded terms heavily influenced by common perception at the time which is in turn influenced by a lot of factors.
As our culture develops, so right and wrong also develop.
For example, most people would probably say smoking opium is wrong, but it was legal in the UK until 1917 or so. Before that time, it could conceivably have been considered right.
Sending your kids out to work at six years old used to be right, now it's wrong in Europe but right in some countries. I could go on but I won't.
The point is, different people have different views. Science is often cited as proof of things when in fact it is not proof per se.
I strive to keep an open mind is all I'm saying. I also respect the right of others to hold a differing opinion or view. I am a true liberal.
It makes me sound like an arsehole maybe, selfish, yes. I'm being honest and the evidence I see all around me tells me most people feel the same, even.if they don't admit it.
The fact is, the majority of people only care about themselves and their immediate family. They work to amass the next thing up the ladder that they need, be it food or personal wealth and that's it.
So, because you play with words and facts. Yes there is minority of people Who think humans are not warming up the climate significantly, that 2 degrees is nothing, just like there are folks who think that black and brown people are a lesser race and they have some scientific facts to prove it. They can tell you that They come from undeveloped countries and it will take at least two generations, tens of tears to reach Western white level of civilization.
There are diminishing returns to anything including Being critical of consensus of scientists. There is a difference between being critocal of academic consensus and consensus of politicians or religious people.
Psychedelics. Use them. They are a bitch of a pain in the ass for any belief system. They disrupt and reset behaviour patterns and thought processes, they make people question themselves.
Truth be told, I can convince you that cutting off your own penis is the best option. I just need to offer the right alternatives. This is the same context that current enviro-wackjobs and the media live for.
I won't lie. I haven't read up on climate change just like I haven't read up on Islamic extremism, transgenderism or plant based dietism.
I'm just not that interested. Everything in the news is suspect, and should be taken with a pinch of salt.
I think some of the environmental stuff has its roots in the anti-capitalist/anti-establishment movement for sure. I'm sick of hearing about Greta Thumbergs and Extinction Rebellion (what a ridiculous name). I've even started throwing some plastic containers in the bin instead of the recycling just because I hate them so much. It's my way of getting back at them for all the oxygen they are wasting by being alive.
My suggestions are as follows:
1. Ban cars with more than one empty seat in 2040. Everyone will have 20 years to use the car they have and then buy a new one with two seats. Or maybe car companies will make cars with telescopic mid sections that can extend to increase the number of seats when necessary. Shorter cars take up less room, it's better for congestion, fuel economy would go up, and emissions down.
2. Make everyone under 25 ride a scooter or motorbike instead of a car. If you want a car licence you have to earn it by holding a scooter licence for x number of years first. This would also make the roads safer as all the young kevs would learn to use the roads on a vehicle with much less potential to harm others. Plus a few of the young punks would die which would probably do society a favour in the long term.
3. More roundabouts and fewer traffic lights - keep the traffic moving. It's better than start/stop because you don't have to accelerate from a dead stop every time.
4. Remoulded tyres for the life of the carcass.
5. The school run could be banned. People can choose whatever school they want to send their kids to, but they have to walk there. This would have the added benefit of making all those big fat heifers lose some weight off their disgusting fat arses, doing their husbands a massive favour in the process. Or wives, if it was the husbands losing the weight off their revolting beer bellies and double chins. Let's just get healthy by walking! You don't need the gym or clean food if you walk ten miles a day.
6. Working from home could be mandatory, perhaps on x number of days per week. Obvious benefits. That, or a condensed work week of 4x10hr days for example, instead of 5x8hrs.
7. The throwaway culture is shunned. There is a minimum life permissible on home appliances. TVs, fridges, washing machines. You have a licence for them and you have to keep them for x number of years. Ten maybe. Under that time they must be fixed, not replaced. Manufacturers would therefore start to make them properly, and make spares available - no more having to replace the whole assembly when one washer and a bushing have worn out.
8. Same for iPhones. Five year life minimum - loss of trading licences for smart phone companies who do not make phones that last.
9. Self-service butchers shops - farming is a problem and we need to get people to eat less meat. If they had to cut their own meat off an animal instead of picking up a plastic pack from a supermarket refrigerator a lot of people would think twice about eating meat - am I right?
10. A return to the old deli style supermarkets. You buy your beans by the spoon from a big container. Spoon them out into your own reusable bean box. Same for nuts, bread, eggs, yogurt, whatever. No more plastic packaging. In fact, no more packaging. Use your own tupperware and wash it up after.
That will work great in rural USA....uh huh.....
2. Make everyone under 25 ride a scooter or motorbike instead of a car - but, I can AFFORD a car and the gas. I am free...so, I will drive my own, thank you (shall I bring up the SeaRay Sundancer 470 and its two 7.9ltr diesels?)
5. The school run could be banned. - absolutely. But, that is racist.
8. Same for iPhones. - I broke at least five phones last year. I do not care, I buy a new one.
9. Self-service butchers shops - farming is a problem and we need to get people to eat less meat. - soylent green. Uh huh.
You been watching old episodes of Little House on the Prairie on some US Classic station?
I see we agree on one thing that huge body of environmentalists are people with misplaced empathy and self esteem. I do not believe in honesty of most vegans, greenies and lefties, when you see people being avid activists it’s rarely a non selfish truth when it comes to “what’s in it for you” - the answer is more than probably: you Genuinely dislike humans. You were bullied as a kid, you were non attractive for some reason, observed your friends drink, dance, shag, take drugs and you were not a part of it... you were never the part of the group no matter the reasons and now you found people who can take you in.
Now you seem quite extreme with your proposals, I believe we can start with effective and more affordable car pooling and big investments in railroad infrastructure, public transport in general as well as alternative to cars, like those silly half bikes, half mini cars.
Can we also Publicly execute people in municipalities who allowed this electric kickbike plague?
Just because certain things don’t work in rural US or Cambodia doesn’t mean their stupid otherwise it would mean whole world should do as rural US. Thinking about context is hard indeed. You have to actually think often... much harder than deciding on which side of a fence you are
If the Govt tries to ban guns - there will be a Civil War and the people will win.
If the Govt tried to ban free travel, or quota's on travel - there will be a Civil War and the people will win.
If Socialists try to make everyone equal, millions will be out of jobs (and there goes the tax base).
If the idiot Dems try to tax money 'at rest' we will simply move more of it offshore or into places it can not be traced (as easily).
For the tax I pay to simply fuel the boat (from E-F) the attendant's wages could be paid for 30 days (assuming he is at or near Min Wage). That is just the tax for filing at the harbor, already far more costly than fuel for the cars. Most of the time we would leave IL and get fuel in IN or WI for the tax savings (outside of the liberal run "gun free" zone of Chicago).
What is funny, how many Teslas were at the parking area of the harbor...where people get on their boats and we calculate gallons per hour (@xRPM) and the tender craft tends to have 200HP of engine with no emission controls at all.
Thermoplastics are very interesting from a manufacturing point of view, as they would in theory allow for automated production. I think this is still an area of research, however.
From an environmental point of view, carbon fibre is the only thing that matters - it dominates all other components due to its energy intensity. To make these specific rims, they start with long fibres, and cut them for specific shapes. As the article indicates, once you melt the resin (assuming you can melt enough away, this is not trivial) you end up with shorter fibres. Practically impossible to reuse on rims, so get used in smaller components. So, in my opinion, this is more downcycling than recycling, and is not circular. To be clear, not much currently is! But aluminium and steel are much closer to circularity, though perfect circularity is tough due to alloying elements and mixing of waste streams.
If you take environmental considerations into account when making decisions, people had things pretty much figured out 25 years ago: First reduce, then reuse, and only recycle as the last resort.
Maybe if a company wanted to tout their environmental bonafides they would START with recycled material and then make rims from that, and not consume any first-use materials at all. What, no market for it?
"We have a pretty big pile of rims from our development process that we have already recycled and turned into parts. Our partners are dedicated to perfecting this method and the sky is the limit to what we can make. If we get a rim back that needs to be recycled, we remove the vinyl decals and drop the rim into a chipper to chop the rim up into small blocks about 1” square. Those chips are melted down into a block of material that can be turned into another part."
They don't specify what parts are being made with the recycled materials, but I have seen quite a few interesting parts being manufactured with carbon fiber SMC. Who knows maybe your broken rim ends up in a Gorilla Gravity frame
CSS seems to make parts in a bunch of different industries. composite-sourcing.com/about_composite_sourcing_solutions.html
Not any cheaper or lighter than the catagory leaders, WAO & SC Reserve. Maybe they are stronger, but no evidence to support this claim. So, the only real difference is they are recyclable.
Also noticed the rim only cost for WR1 is dramatically lower at $450, vs. $700.
The ride quality and strength of these revel wheels needs to be head-and-shoulders above the competition to be worth it. Not sure they are.
youtu.be/5Be5hBu0jHo
Take for example Guerrilla Gravity: They developed a way to mold carbon fiber frames faster and easier, and though it's made domestically, they are still able to keep the price lower than most other carbon frames.
So yeah, I'd call this BS marketing.
And even Aluminum is not always 100% recyclable. And aluminum mining and production isn't all flowers and sunshine and environmentally sound. (especially when done in countries where there are not great environmental regs. (course that can probably be said about the US under the current administration))
Anyway, other than cost it's not such an open and shut case... And lifetime carbon rim warranties offset the "total" cost to some degree.
But still, no denying the initial expense!!! What your paying for in weight difference and a most likely stiffer wheel can be very significant! (which is why I've costed, emailed, added to cart countless wheel builds/spec's; carbon, aluminum, bling, budget, etc. But am still riding mostly stock or slightly upgraded take off wheels!!! )
At least on heavy/strong commuter bikes the steel Van Schothorst (Ryde) rims are the more expensive option compared to the aluminium alternatives. Obviously it takes something more refined to be able to run it tubeless. As for weight? I laced one of these to a Shimano Nexus 7 speed hub using 36 plain gauge spokes (4.0mm thick). The wheel was about 3kg heavy. It was a bitch to true merely because my truing stand was bending so much .
My 480g Chicom Carbon Nexties have held up amazingly well but lightweight they ain't.
But my next rims may be aluminum because CF rims when built wide and thick weigh similar to good alloy designs.
The architecture of rims which isn't frequently obsessed about makes as much diff as the wall thickness. I'm liking lower /wider designs these days.
XM481 29er rim is 525gr not 450gr. Yes you can probably get a strong 21 IW rim that weights 450gr. But if you take that same amount of aluminum and extrude a 30IW rim at 450gr your most likely going to have bending/denting issues for a high percentage of riders. (which I'd assume is why they don't weight 450gr and DT Swiss makes them at 525gr)
That was when an MFG with insane prices decided that some stupid political view on a theoretical recycling policy was part of a "Value Add" to try and justify their being priced as high or higher than Enve.
Why can’t a rim be warrantied by a second or third or fourth owner? I’m looking at you Santa Cruz. No reason except to help drive sales.
After all, $$$ = quality. Doesn't it?
Oh yeah-and for the price of one of these rims I can build a set of EX511's on 350 hubs!!
Is all the marketing bullshit really nessecary?
You can bet that their marketing budgets regularly outstrip engineering budgets by large margins.
But yeah, thermoplastics are typically tougher and more impact resistant than thermoset plastics. It shouldn't have taken this long to realize this for all those composite engineers out there, you'd say?
Oh, PB needs a graphic comment section to help us exercise our armchair engineering .
Both TS and TP UD Tapes are very common nowadays, with large programs in Aerospace, Satellite, Rocket, etc. industries using a variety of TS and TP tapes for various applications. There is no clear "best" material for any application, just better choices for specific applications. Any other generalization is oversimplifying a complex, yet interesting, puzzle.
Composite engineers out there generally acknowledge the higher impact properties of some TPs over Epoxies, but the processing challenges, i.e. no tack at room temp and high melt temp, make them much harder to use. There are also downsides to some TPs like mechanical properties dropping significantly with water absorption or poor chemical resistance to acetone or other volatiles present in most bike cleaning products.
Pla melts at about 400 F and nylon at about 500 F. So they are quite similar
247wallst.com/special-report/2019/05/31/these-are-the-worlds-biggest-producers-of-waste
To those of you suddenly imagining Canadians just throwing stuff away all the time: it's not that. It's driven by agricultural and industrial waste.
Canada makes and exports a bunch of stuff that creates waste in its production.
If you look at municipal solid waste (aka, the stuff individuals throw away at home), we're #1 and Canada is #2: www.statista.com/statistics/689809/per-capital-msw-generation-by-country-worldwide
So I'm waiting for rims to reach 1000$ each . Imagine how recyclable those will be!
It’s should just be common practice. I guess good on them for trying, but my aluminum ex511’s are still lighter. Soooo
Instead of saying "it is recyclable!" and leaving it to you to figure out how, Revel is saying "WE will recycle this!" I for one am really excited to see a company acknowledge that and take steps to reduce the impact of consumerism that they, by definition, take part in.
Cheers - Dan at Fanatik
I know this could be controversial to some, but it is possible to buy a second hand bike and not only ride it, but to love it.
*recyclable, relatively competitive priced carbon wheel set with lifetime warranty comes out*
Also Pinkbikers: This is stupid! I can buy Reserves that weigh only 70g less for basically the same price AND my new Hightower CC frame every year because the color changed and I don’t want my friends to think I’m not cool anymore all for a measly $5200! Get with the program manufactures!
Lol
www.businessinsider.my/malaysia-return-plastic-trash-rich-countries-us-france-canada-uk-2020-1?r=US&IR=T
I learned that; essentially the old, good but broken or in some way distorted carbon fibre products would mostly be turned in to pellets which would be used for things like brake levers (Magura) or other simple parts which required a good strength to weight ratio.
Sadly, posting this comment has made me realize how much I've already forgotten.
There are several problems with this marketing strategy..........
Thermoplastic materials change their mechanical properties with every heat cycle. Depending on this heat cycle (and cooling), different crystal growth will occur resulting in different mechanical properties. This implies that if the materials are in fact recycled, every part you receive will be different and may in-turn be weaker then anticipated. The material is not indefinably recyclable for parts where strength and ductility are needed.
Recycling: They are formed from recycled carbon and can be later re-recycled. If you don't believe in recycling, then don't but you're a part of the problem not the solution because everything helps.
Price: They cost the same as competing on the market so why bother. Look at the whole picture! You are getting made in the USA rims that are recyclable and have a lifetime warranty.
Warranty doesn't mean anything: It means everything. This is a small company offering lifetime warranty. You don't think that's a big risk?! This means they stand by their product to be strong. Don't judge the product before you even use it. Five years from now, you can have an opinion.
Aluminum vs. Carbon: If you are a diehard aluminum rim rider, that's your preference! Have you tried every single rim out there and have developed a thorough conclusion that carbon rims are not for you? Then you have chosen ignorance because heres a new one that you could enjoy but choose to stick to what you know. Nothing wrong with that but that opinion doesn't apply here. It applies to those asking whether to ride carbon or Aluminum rims.
In the end I think people need to stop nit-picking the details and look at the whole package. In the end don't knock it before you try it. You never know what you're missing out on until you choose to miss out.
In prepreg layup, the carbon sheets come preimpregnated with epoxy (hence "prepreg"). They are put in the mold, then heated to cure the epoxy. Prepreg carbon sheets typically need to be stored refrigerated because the epoxy cure rate is a function of temperature - warmer is faster. You can't stop it completely. Epoxy isn't added in this process.
In resin infused techniques, neat carbon sheets are added to the mold, then they are infused with epoxy resin, then heated to cure. These don't need to be refrigerated because the carbon is clean, and the two parts of the epoxy resin are not mixed until right before they are infused into the carbon layup.
*throws bike over Tacoma tailgate and burns a gallon of gas to the trailhead*
some more details over at: www.revelbikes.com/our-bikes/revel-wheels
I like the idea of an American made recyclable rim but your point about the price is valid. At least they are offering a different product for that kind of money. There are a whole lot of fairly Indistinguishable Chinese made carbon rims, at many different price points, to choose from at the moment.
Unfortunately not as strong as epoxy long term
whatever happened to LeMond composites, btw?
Once these guys sell 500+ wheelsets and they've recouped their costs, I bet they drop their price a bit, but I doubt we'll ever see a wheelset like this for under $1800 USD.
yes never worked on this industry but have a clue on a bigger picture.
work very close to a factory on heavy machinery and margins are very small.
on another scale just for example, a motorbike needs the triple! on molds just for the engine! and compare prices to bicycles!
maybe a pair of motorbike rims cost 3000 but has to withstand 200hp 180mph.
bicycles industry are on a stratospheric level
In terms of environmental impact, people seem to fail to realize aluminum, steel, or titanium ISN’T 100% recyclable. There’s still energy required to normalize or put said metal back to an annealed state. Then there’s energy required to melt it all down and reprocess it via extrusion or pour.
As long as the alloy rim has not been sheared or bent, it is 100% reusable and resell able. Carbon for this to be true is a life time accidental damage from riding (ADR). and if you are selling it, you and the new owner best be in the same state for a fast turnaround.
I can swap a new aluminum rim for $60-75 depending on brand and style, usually burn up a rear rim once or twice a year, fronts tend to last longer unless I do something really stoopid.
This CF is really all about giving dentists something to spend money on when they're too busy working to go ride.
I think we can make it more sustainable by riding stuff longer and thinking more about what we buy and from whom.
But anyhow, sorry for preaching haha!
So I’m spending $700 per rim because they’re gonna fail? I kinda figured that paying more guarantees they won’t fail.
See that’s the thing with your guarantee, you aren’t really guaranteeing no failure, you’re just replacing rims that fail.
I’d rather have a rim that doesn’t fail.
Heck, in the ISS urine is recyclable...but, at what cost?