First Ride: Shimano Deore XT M8000

May 6, 2015
by Mike Kazimer  

Rider: Mike Kazimer. Photo: Irmo Keizer / Shimano

Shimano chose Riva del Garda, Italy, as the location for the official hands-on unveiling of their new Deore XT M8000 gruppo, timing the launch to overlap with the Riva Bike Festival, a massive gathering of mountain bikers from all over Europe that arrive in the picturesque town for a weekend of riding, racing, and partying.

The biggest news about the new group is that it's designed around an eleven speed cassette, with an 11-40 tooth option that's intended to be run with one or two rings up front, and an 11-42 cassette that's meant to be run as as single ring setup. Many of the refinements found on the M8000 group have trickled down from the XTR M9000 components that were released last year, and save for the weight difference between the two groups, Deore XT's performance is closer to that of its more expensive sibling than ever before.


Shimano XT M8000
The cable for the front derailleur is routed along the down tube. Photo: Irmo Keizer / Shimano
XT M8000
A shorter cage provides clearance for big wheels and short chainstays.

Front Derailleur

I'm firmly convinced that front derailleurs aren't necessary for the vast majority of riders out there, especially considering how wide of a range is provided by an 11-42 tooth cassette, but for those that haven't yet seen the light, Shimano's Side Swing front derailleur design makes front shifting quicker and more positive than ever. This design sees the derailleur cable routed along the down tube, rather than along the seat tube, with the spring for the derailleur oriented vertically, almost like a door hinge, which helps decrease the amount of room the derailleur takes up. The cage itself is shorter as well, providing more tire clearance for 29ers and bikes with short chainstays. There's even a triple chainring option, for rider that feel like having 33 gear options. A 22 tooth chainring with a 40 tooth sprocket in the rear should make nearly vertical trails scalable, providing you don't tip over from the slow speed spinning.


Shimano XT M8000
The shape of the derailleur has been altered for better clearance and to accommodate the eleven speed cassette.
Shimano XT M8000
A hex bolt allows the clutch tension to be increased or decreased.

Rear Derailleur

In order to ensure smooth shifts and maintain chain retention across the entirety of the 11 speed cassette, the XT rear derailleur's slant angle has been reduced, which helps keep the upper pulley wheel close to the cassette across the full gear range. Riders that choose to run a single ring up front gain access to Shimano's new 11-42 tooth cassette, creating an even wider gear spread than what is currently available with the XTR 11-40 tooth option.

The derailleur's clutch mechanism is now externally adjustable with an allen key, a feature that allows riders to easily fine tune the amount of retention to their liking. For instance, cross-country riders on smoother terrain may prefer to reduce the tension in order to have a lighter feel at the shift lever, while all-mountain riders or enduro racers may run it tighter in order to increase the amount of chain retention. The same goes for riders who are still running a front derailleur versus those with 1x setups, with the front derailleur crowd not needing as much clutch tension as the single ringers.


Shimano XT M8000
Shimano uses stainless steel for their 1x chainrings for increased longevity.
Shimano XT M8000
The shift levers have been lengthened and textured, another trickle down from XTR.

1x Option

The single ring version of the XT drivetrain uses what Shimano calls Dynamic Chain Engagement (DCE), a tooth shape that supposedly results in a 150% increase in chain retention. This isn't a narrow-wide design like the one employed by SRAM and a host of other chain ring manufacturers – it relies on a more squared off tooth profile that's slightly hooked in order to keep the chain from popping off in rough terrain. The rings are available in 30, 32, and 34 tooth versions (the lack of a spiderless crank option prevents smaller rings from being offered).

Shifters

The XT shifter paddles are now slightly longer and more textured, with dimples on the thumb lever used for upshifts and vertical ridges on the smaller downshift trigger intended to provide a more positive surface to reach for in wet conditions. Like the previous version, they feature Multi-Release shifting, which allows riders to downshift two gears with one push of the lever.

Brakes

To go along with their sleek black color option, the XT brakes now get the dimpled braked levers previously found only on XTR, along with a revised master cylinder design that gives them an even more low profile look, as well as a lighter weight. The handlebar clamp has shrunk in size as well, making it easier to have the brakes play nicely with a dropper post remote, or another brand's shifter.


Shimano XT M8000 brakes
The revised master cylinder gives the XT brakes a more trim look.

Ride Report

The demo bikes on hand for the launch were a little different than what I'm used to, with 100mm stems, narrow handlebars, narrow tires and not a dropper post in sight. Not exactly a setup that's conducive to hard charging, but as they say, “When in Rome...”

It was the single ring configuration that intrigued me the most, but unfortunately there was only a display model available, so the questions about the design's effectiveness will have to wait until we can get our hands on a production version later in the summer. That being said, the XT front derailleur worked flawlessly, providing very quick, positive shifts between the two rings. It was extremely quiet as well, since there's enough room between the chain and the derailleur cage to prevent it from making any annoying clanks or rattles. That, combined with the clutch equipped derailleur helps make for a drivetrain that calls minimal attention to itself out on the trail. At the rear of the bike, the derailleur exhibited the performance that the Deore XT group has traditionally been known for – it simply works, consistently traveling the entire span of the cassette without issue. The shift lever's new ergonomics are as intuitive as ever, and with an eleven speed cassette the ability to drop two gears at a time is especially appreciated.

I've had a very positive experience with the current generation of XT brakes, but I found that the M8000 brakes had an inconsistent lever feel on extended downhill portions of the trail, occasionally pumping up during sustained braking. More than likely an errant air bubble was the culprit, and a quick bleed would have fixed this, but in any case I'd need additional time on them to offer a final verdict.


Shimano XT M8000
Even the pedals have been updated, getting wider and thinner in the process.


Pricing
Shimano XT M8000 pricing
The M8000 group is expected to be available by August, 2015.


Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesShimano's new XT group is a welcome addition to the marketplace, one that adds another relatively affordable eleven speed option to the mix. The fact that the cassette works on a standard freehub body is a plus, saving riders the cost of purchasing a new driver in order to upgrade from a 9 or 10 speed drivetrain. While it may not have the 10 tooth cog that SRAM offers, for many riders it's the easier climbing gear that's most important, not the ability to keep up with road bikers on a paved descent. We'll have a full group on hand for testing as soon as one is available, at which point we'll be sure to give it a thorough thrashing and offer a comprehensive evaluation. - Mike Kazimer




www.shimano.com, @shimano


291 Comments

  • + 148
 Now I can go 11 speed and feel good about doing it. Thankfully no XD driver needed. Take that SRAM! This is 1x11 that can go on anything.
  • + 37
 Sure it's more convenient because it fits on every hub but you don't have the 10T. The point of the XD driver is justly the 10t...
  • + 41
 Really, you actually need the 10t?
  • + 41
 Stop talking sense scatology.
  • + 20
 One of the advantage of the 10t it's to eliminate the double chainring... so yes it's needed if you don't want a crappy front derailleur. There are nothing to argue here, just buy what suits your budget and your need.
  • + 45
 Can't see much reason to buy XTR over any of this stuff. Shimano knocked it out of the park with this group set!
  • + 22
 Shimano is giving 11 to the masses. And as you can see, its the big sprocket people want, not 10 or 9t. And sram is the one making crappy front derailleurs
  • + 3
 Many brands already offer big sproket... regardless of the company, single ring is the way to go in my opinion. It's called "Peace of Mind" I think. That's only personnal preferences I guess. That's another story but I admit the 10t is not really needed in every case and shimano scores high with that group.
  • + 44
 10 vs 11 may not sound like much....but it is almost 10% and that is a lot when it comes to viability of 1x.
  • + 18
 The 10t is a big deal. 10% ! Pair it with a smaller front ring if you're looking for more low end
  • + 35
 Some of you are confused on how gear range works. If you have a 10t, you can go with a smaller front chainring and get lower gearing without sacrificing too end. The same thing as adding a big tooth rear sprocket. I think XD is a good solution to increasing the 1x range so you don't lose so much to 2x or 3x, but it bumps cassette costs up a lot. So I like XT on standard so it is affordable, but XTR should have a 10-42 XD option.
  • + 5
 Range guys, range is the key word here. We want the 10T. It would allow me to have a 28T front and keep the same top end. Shimano needs to suck it up and jump on the xd driver bandwagon and not split to yet another standard.
  • + 0
 That's my fear with Shimano, they so far have been such stubborn ..... that they may make some other stupid standard hub rather than use the XD because SRAM did it first. Though I do like standard hub compatible cassette options as they are way cheaper than XD cassettes.
  • + 24
 Not everyone needs a 10t cog. I will be fine running a 32/34 front with 11-42t. Shimano did something we are all asking for; no new standards. Also those brake levers are sexy. And judging by the prices on euro sites, I can upgrade to 11 speed for $272.
  • + 1
 I think shimano need to suck it up, XD is going to be the new hub standard soon, it helps with gear range a lot. Like warimono said, 10-28t gives a very good range (not sure what it's compared to, 11-36?). I'm happy to sacrifice some of my money to get better gear range. Sure, 2x can still be handy with Di2 now out, but 1x just so much more simple, and especially with the wider range cassettes now, the front mech is dying a slow death now
  • + 9
 Oh darn i can't have a ten tooth cog instead of a 11. The world must be coming to an end.
  • + 10
 Just so you all know, 10-42 is equivalent in range to 46-11 (obviously, with different size chainrings). I don't get why people are so damn happy with 11-42.
  • + 3
 The new options from Shimano are only good, and will hopefully advance the 11 speed tech and options. Anything that will drive down the price of the 10-42 will be good, just wish a Shimano 10-42 for $140 bucks was on this years line up. Maybe the SRAM GX 10-42 will come down close to that range after getting into circulation for a while but it is a bit heavy.

As far as gear ratios, 28-48 is only .2 higher than 22-36, and 28-10 is only .2 smaller than 32-11. It is .9 smaller than 36-11 though, so it depends on how your double is setup.

Both of these options are better than the 10 speed 1x that I have now which is cool.
  • + 6
 11-45 or 11-46 might be OK too. Just heavier, and it doesn't have to be. Also need to run a larger chainring which is heavier and more prone to hits. Will see how the 45T extender cogs actually work out when these things get popular.
  • + 3
 I like the fact it fits to a standard hub and with 42 11 the gear increments should be nice and even. I would have liked to see more front ring variation though, sticking with 11t a slightly bigger front cog would be nice for those of us who like to push big gears of the flatter stuff.
  • + 3
 Hey, how about those new pedals!?
  • + 3
 The only thing holding me back from going 1x11 is the fact that I love the 36/11 ratio for downhills and wouldn't feel comfortable on anything easier and I wouldn't be able to have just a 36t ring because of the gradient of where I live. So a 10t cog would mean I could have a much smaller ring and not compromise my sweet gear.
  • + 0
 ^i hate front mechs as much as the next person too.
  • + 2
 This is an 11 speed with the range of a (slightly modified) 10 speed, so all that means is sometimes you need to shift three gears instead of two. Without the 10 tooth, and therefore the XD driver, I don't see the point. Then again I don't get as sentimental as some about my (completely arbitrary) "standards"
  • + 24
 Just file a tooth off your 11 cog FFS...
  • + 5
 I'm sure I read somewhere about a prototype hope cassette that had a 10t. It needed a hope pro hub though. As a lot of people already run pro hubs that cassette paired with the XT could be the answer people need.
  • + 26
 10t....unless you're racing, who cares? When you're riding fast enough to need a 10t on a tech trail your pedals are gonna be 50/50.

Its funny, when XTR was released everyone was bitchin about no 42t option. Now the Sram fanboys are moaning about no 10t when Shimano has provided a group that doesn't require upgrades to your hub, has the range where riders actually need it, is less expensive (XX1 and X01 cassettes are outrageously expensive by comparison), and gives riders the flexibility to change to 2x or 3x without a wholesale change of the drivetrain.

Rule # 5 Pick a drivetrain, then be a dick about it!
  • + 6
 If I could choose, I'd choose shimano. It's not about sticking up for your preferred drivechain. This is me choosing on spec not on brand.

The reason I prefer shimano is from my experience it's more durable and it's also cheaper. Performance wise they are very similar.

Personally, my priority is having a gear that is equal to or harder than 36/11 as well as being able to climb up super steep long hills without burning out all my energy.
  • - 6
flag Callum-H (May 6, 2015 at 4:35) (Below Threshold)
 Funny you say that Shimano is more durable, lots of mechanics I know say the road shimano is stronger than the road SRAM, yet MTB Sram is stronger than MTB Shimano. Plus shimano can be dicks, Trek started using SRAM drivetrains because shimano did not want to do a 1x11.
  • + 3
 Purely comparing the downhill mechs so it's not necessarily true across the board but te saint mech is far far stronger than the xo1dh 7sp.

I always look for four thins in bike products - cost, durability, weight and performance. These priorities change depending on what in buying specifically but for drive chains id prefer something cheaper and better quality with a good performance and I find that shimano is cheaper and better quality for my riding (mainly dh) and also just as good as sram. Having said that I use sram x9 2x10 on my enduro bike which I've slammed pretty hard and haven't needed to do too many adjustments.

I think the best part about having two major drivechain manufacturers is that the competition is always direct so as consumers we get cheaper, better products.
  • + 9
 thumbs up to shimano, backward compatibility is worth its weight in gold
  • + 7
 I support any entity that is willing to push the envelope, anyone who tries to offer more. That said, the 10t setup is just not worth the money. Even if you have enough SRAM parts, and a suitable wheelset already such that you just need the cassette, XD driver, and shifter, the cost is just far too high for ONE FLIPPIN TOOTH. And that's for the 1%...everyone else will need the entire XX1/X01/X1 drivetrain, plus a new XD compatible wheelset. Even compared to M9000 with an expander, you're talking at least $1000 more for ONE FLIPPIN TOOTH. There's just no valid argument for it.

The masses are right, M8000 is going to be huge. Reasonably priced 11-42t that works with ANYTHING. Home run.
  • + 1
 Is it possible to get a 10t onto a regular hub? Those prototype hope ones got 9t onto an xd hub by integrating the 9t onto the retention cap
  • + 2
 It's simple - if you want more range, pony up for SRAM. GX is just around the corner, and affordable. If you don't want to buy a new free hub, XT is the one for you. Great options, nowadays!
  • + 0
 Theraven, I'm not disputing, but what chainring would you run?

I know for sure that where I live and the type of riding I do I would not be able to have anything easier than 36/11 but a single 36t ring wouldn't get me up everything I ride either.

Also your argument is only valid assuming everyone needs a 1x set up. For now, I'm relatively happy with 2x10 because like you say, I can't justify the money for a 32/10-42 1x11 set up even though I'd like to. My front mech is the Bain of my life! In all my races this year I have dropped my chain into the lower ring even set up so that the click down only just changes the gear. To resolve it I have to set the hanger over the top ring to act as a chain guide and then change it back for normal riding.

I just don't feel like I could manage a 36/11-42 set up where I live. That 10t for me is far more than just a tooth. It's a massive difference in effort needed compared to teeth at the front.
  • + 4
 What's the point of 11 speed without a wider range cassette? 11 speed sram is great because they put a wide range cassette with it. Without that wide range, better to stick with 10 speed and not fork over the money for new derailer and shifter.
  • + 4
 I'm legitimately curious how many people are going to upgrade to 11-42 11-speed, from 11-42 10 speed. I know some don't want to use aftermarket parts, & some people don't like the jumps between gears on the 10-speed version, but other than that, I think an awful lot of people are going to look at this & decide to hold off upgrading for a while.
  • + 5
 Stampers - The 10 tooth isn't necessarily there to go faster with a higher gear. Instead, it simply offers a wider range cassette. The gearing can be however high or low you want. Pair it with a smaller front ring and you can keep the same high gear but get extended low gear ratios.
  • + 5
 To the 95% of the riding population: go ride your bikes more than you sit down an calculate % of range, rpms, hi-low gear equivalents depending on ring size etc....... Ride your bikes FFS........
  • + 5
 @lukachadwick - I don't know for sure, but I would probably have to try both the 32 and 34. A 36t would be far to high for the trails I ride. I have five bikes now and all are 2x (26/36 - 11/36) and 3x (22/32/44 - 11/34), and the 2x setups are JUST BARELY enough to cover my regular trails. I'm ok with the low gear, even though I still find myself walking a handful of the climbs I encounter, but I can deal with that. However I still find myself wishing for another gear or two at the top. So until I can find a 1x11 setup that covers AT LEAST why my 2x setups cover, i'm staying on 2x.

Also, I can't even count at this point how many bikes i've built and owned over the past 20 years, and i've NEVER had significant issues with a front derailleur. For me, there's nothing easier to set up on a bike. Hell, removing a QR9 wheel from "safety" dropouts is harder! I couldn't tell you the last time I dropped a chain while downshifting the front rings. I know it's happened but it was like forever ago.
  • + 3
 Why's everyone complaining about no 10t? How many of you go hard enough to actually require a 10t?
  • + 0
 @GrunderS i need 10t because I'm getting older and fatter and need the wider range!
  • - 1
 What are you guys riding if a 34 or 36 x 42 isn't enough. I'm 100kg and not the fittest man on the planet and here in Yorkshire we have some ridiculous hills. All bar maybe one or two it's middle ring all the way up.
  • + 1
 28:10? That's the ratio I run on my street single speed. I need to build a trail/xc ss now. I can only pedal so fast while standing...
  • + 3
 @randybadger - apparently my trails have even more ridiculous hills than yours, because a 34x42 would be a step higher than my lowest gear on my primary trail bike (26x36) and even now i'm walking the very top of a few of my regular climbs. Perhaps it's not steepness, but length? My ride yesterday included a fairly steep climb (wouldn't call this one "ridiculous") that was just a hair over 2/3 mile long...and keep in mind i'm not talking up-then-level-then-up-some-more, it was the same grade all the way up. Another climb on that same trail is much shorter (maybe 1000ft), but it's so steep that you can't attack it seated. If you try, you'll actually roll backwards off the bike. Why would I subject myself to this? Because in both cases, what lies on the other side is just to badass to miss.
  • + 2
 on my "all mountain" bike i run a 34T 11-42 and wish i had a 10t, i find myself ripping and going for a pedal only to find there i'snt much gearing left. In my opinion you can never have enough top end, when i get to the bottom of the hill at whistler bike park i'm surprised how often i'm in my top or second from the top gear on my DH bike (38T 11-36).
  • + 0
 @o4cobra335 - So you would pay $300-$500 for that one tooth? I understand what you are saying, but my argument is that the difference isn't anywhere near enough to justify the cost.
  • + 2
 If i could afford it, yes. Until then i will wait for mass production to erode the cost.
  • + 4
 You have to consider multiple cases. The $3-500 is one case. Those that are buying new drivetrain and would need new hub.
Many have a convertible hub, so that is cheaper.
Many, like me, are already considering a new hub, so XD vs standard is a no cost issue.
And many more are buying a complete bike, so XD vs standard is a non issue.

For those cases, the only difference is cassette price.
  • + 3
 True but guys like you are the 1% that I already mentioned. The other 99% are the ones riding bikes more than 4 years old, on cheaper wheelsets, probably still on 3x9. This is also every person i've ever ridden with in my entire life. That's 20 years of riding, which is alot of rides, and alot of fellow riders. Not a single one of those riders would be able to go to a 10-42t setup without at least changing out the rear hub. Most of them wouldn't even consider that option because it would mean installing a $200+ hub in a wheel worth $50 max. So most of them would make the smart choice and upgrade their wheel, which in turn would make them want to have an equally good front wheel, and now we're back where we started having spent $500 and not obtained a single drivetrain piece yet.

See?
  • + 4
 @randybadger.

Mountains. I'm riding real mountains that stick a vertical mile above the surrounding landscape.

I ride singlespeed most of the time, but 50 miles and 10,000' of climbing will bring out the 2x machine.

Nobody is going to ride up this beast on a 1x anything: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandia_Mountains#/media/File:Sandia_Crest,_Albuquerque_PP_AB.JPG
  • + 2
 @TheRaven If you could put a 10t on a regular hub somehow then it would be for the 99%

But the whole point is that when you buy a new bike, it could come with the GX and not be any premium over a 2 by 10
  • + 2
 I already got the complete x1 set with xd hub and blah, but i'm considering on buying the xt group. guess i just keep the xd body and the sram cassette. means 10-42 sram cassette, rest xt. i hope the derailleur accepts a 10t cog....
  • + 3
 You should be fine, lots of people were running that setup with XTR already. It's what I plan to do with this new XT setup.
  • + 1
 @hllclmbr Nobody with 2x has climbed up that face of the mountain either. Not legally anyway. I have climbed up King of the Mountain at the Sandia Ski area on 1x just fine though. Not fit enough to do it enough times to make 10,000 feet of vert but 30-42 on a 27.5 isn't THAT bad. I will likely change to a 28-42 though.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez - Well yes, that was pretty much my point. I don't have a problem with the 10t itself, I have a problem with the new standard it requires.

Also, while your point about new bikes is true, consider that now that same bike could come with M8000 and be cheaper, since the OEM can use a cheapo wheelset.
  • + 0
 I won the KOM hill climb on my singlespeed in the Cat1/Pro class, running a 34x18 on a 29er, so yeah. The KOM trail is less than a 6% grade, btw Yeah, I do hit the west facing trails, usually at night, and NOBODY is climbing those trails without a granny.
  • + 1
 So you poach la luz and embudito into wilderness, at night? Hardcore man.
  • + 3
 So if 99% of riders the last 20 years have 4 year old bikes, where do they get them from? Certainly somebody had to be buying all this bikes new?
So, if you are already buying a new bike it is no issue if you are already considering buying a quality bike. There really should be no reason an XD hub from Shimano wouldn't also be $50 like their non XD. So if Shimano just sucked it up and admitted SRAM beat them to something, we could move on.
  • + 2
 why not just use a shimano 11spd drivetrain with an xD driver and an GX casette ? this would make a affordable setup and a big gear range
  • + 3
 The whole point of the shimano is that you don't need a new hub. What people are say is that they aren't sure the range is good enough. Personally I think it's a good step forward for us guys converting on a budget
  • + 1
 @kc358 - some of those guys bought their bikes new and are still riding them 10 years later, some bought them used. Sure you can go out and buy a brand new bike with a 10t on it, but remember that from an OEM's point of view, 10t costs alot more than 11t since they have to spec a nice wheelset, in addition to the inherent higher cost of the 1x11 drivetrain. Now with m8000, not only is it cheaper than X01/XX1 and even it's direct competitor - X1, it can be used on ANY wheelset...even a cheap $100-new wheelset. Which means it can be spec'd on much cheaper builds, bringing 1x11 to a lower price point bike. So in short, this means that Shimano's 1x11 is attainable for a MUCH larger market (remember that as you go down the price scale, sales increase exponentially) than SRAM's 1x11. Even GX can't compete (despite being a level below XT) because of the price of the required wheelset.

Really all i'm saying here is m8000 is going to be huge, and assuming that SLX follows suit, it's going to be SUPER huge.
  • + 1
 Further to Randybadger's comment. It's 1x11 albeit with less range but on a budget at XT level. The quality of XT is not comparable to GX ala deore level.
  • + 1
 I tried 3x10, went to 1x10 and liked it but i was wearing out chains, casettes and chainrings within a few hundred miles. I wrapped out the top end pretty frequently and destroyed 11t cogs in a month.

Went to shimano xt/xtr 2x10 and am happy as a clam. i'll keep that setup on my xc bike.

Im going to do shimano 1x11 to get my pig of a trailbike closer to 28lbs. I don't ride it on the road like i do with the xc bike, so i'm not so concerned with the loss of top end. The cost of not buying an xd driver and getting shimano quality shifts is worth it in my mind.
  • + 4
 What are you doing to wear out cassettes and chainrings in a few hundred miles,sounds like you need to take more care with your drivetrain.
  • + 1
 Was the fine summer dust collecting on drivetrain parts and the narrow wide shoving it into the links. I washed my chain after every ride after the first chain got smoked and then tried 4 different lubes to no avail. 11t cogs started skipping under load and then I'd replace just the 11t.
  • + 1
 I usually break apart my XT cassettes after 1700 miles which usually ends up being every year.
  • + 1
 Raven, I understand that the only current XD hubs are expensive. But why would it cost more for Shimano to make an XD hub than their standard? Maybe a few dollars in royalties, but that's it. They could still easily make a cheap wheelset that uses XD.
I agree this XT is great as it brings 1x11 to the affordable market, but at XT level I expect at 10-42 to at least be an option. Maybe when SLX comes out, XT can go 10-42 and SLX stays 11-42.
  • + 2
 There are no royalties for the xd driver.
  • + 1
 Tooling up to manufacture costs a lot of money. I imagine shimano dont see the need to make another free hub body when they already make a perfectly good one.
  • + 0
 Pretty sure costs would be minimal. 6 axis cnc's could split those out pretty quickly. I like that they use the hub i have, but i could see myself upgrading to an xd casette after i wear out my first casette. I bought a convertible hub for that reason
  • + 2
 The thing I don't get is how everyone seemed perfectly happy modding a 10spd shimano cassette with a third party cog and messing with the gear increments while complaining that shimano did nothing and now they have people still don't seem happy.
  • + 1
 I wasn't happy modding my casette at all. The quality of shifts was junk and required adjustment every other ride. To be fair, i tried 1x10 before things like the rad cage were out and i was just using a longer b screw
  • + 1
 RandyBadger; sure, the current standard free body design is good, but not perfectly good. Otherwise we wouldn't have an XD driver that allows a wider range cassette as well as better resistance to gouging.
Having to mod stuff is one of the things making me not convert to 1x10 and why this is a consideration. But why upgrade a full system to 1x11 when 10-speed cassettes can easily have that range and options like Praxis are coming out at the same price? SRAM makes sense, wider range than you can get with 1x10.
I like the cheapness this 1x11 is compared to SRAM Xs. But 11-42 maybe should have been left to SLX with XT having something to offer over current 10-speeds.
  • + 3
 Oh I agree with all the COULD...I have no problem with the COULD. Hell, if there was a centerlock + XD wheelset option out there for $300-$400, i'd already have it along with X1 or X01.

My whole point in all of this is simply that SRAMs price is far too steep for a one tooth range improvement. It's ridiculous that the MTB community bitches about all the new wheel standards but goes hog wild for a $1000 groupset that requires a $500 rear wheel just to offer ONE TOOTH.
  • + 2
 There are lots of us that have compatible hubs though (DT 250 and 240s are common as are Stans, and more rarely others like I9, Kappius, etc).
  • + 3
 Oh I know lots of people have Hope, DT, and other convertible hubs. I have two convertible wheelsets myself, a set with DT 350s and a set with the new Fulcrum hubs that come with everything you need to convert to ANY axle standard (Though you still have to buy the XD driver separate if you want it, and it's alot more expensive than the average). I'm about to buy another new wheelset and i'm looking at the Spank Spike or Spoon wheelset, which is also convertible.

Despite the thousands of us that have convertible wheelsets, there are MILLIONS who do not. M8000 will be, most likely, their only 1x11 option. They won't care in the slightest...heck they probably won't even realize...that they could have one more tooth of range on their cassette.
  • + 2
 Man, you said it right ! Go out and ride !
  • + 35
 Looking forward to hearing how Shimano's 1x chainring compares to the chain-retention performance of narrow-wide chainrings.
  • + 12
 One Up is making a Shimano 11 speed narrow wide ring.
  • + 4
 I'd be really interested to see a long term review comparing chain retention of the narrow-wide rings and this Shimano square tooth ring. There's something really cool looking to me about the square teeth, not that you'd even hardly see them with the chain wrapped around.
  • + 25
 Why not make Squar-row Wide and get the best of both?

....probably should have patented that first.
  • + 12
 It results in a 150% increase in chain retention!!! Well...I mean...150% increase over what? How do you even measure that? Wait, I'm not supposed to ask difficult questions
  • + 3
 mnorris122, exactly. lol. number of drops per 1000 miles of riding?
  • - 6
flag kc358 (May 5, 2015 at 19:55) (Below Threshold)
 I don't get it. So now having a new chainring that comes shaped like a worn chainring is good? Shimano just came up with a great way to make your NW rings last twice as long, just keep using them once they wear into the shape of a Shimano!
  • + 1
 Ive got over 2000 miles on my xtr and never dropped a chain. take it iff and it does the magic hang a ring by the chain trick
  • + 3
 I'd wonder if the square rings will wear better than narrow wide as the wide teeth will wear faster than the narrow teeth?
  • + 3
 Thank you Shimano, I don't want new wheels. But my driveline will need replacement and I don't want a new driver...
  • + 20
 "The demo bikes on hand for the launch were a little different than what I'm used to, with 100mm stems, narrow handlebars, narrow tires and not a dropper post in sight." Oh Shimano sigh.... Gear does sound promising though. So back to important things Kazis - what about the food??
  • + 12
 Yup. Shows how out of touch they are...
  • + 7
 Or probably the bikes were setup much more towards on XC rather than Trail
  • + 2
 Exactly what I was thinking also.
  • + 22
 They didnt even have a 1x bike to test there....holy moly.
  • + 4
 ^^This
  • + 17
 Their resistance to 1x seems like them wanting to refuse to acknowledge SRAM as a competitor. Shimano has fingers in ears trying to ignore the changing landscape of MTB.

I don't know how much clearer we can make this point: no one wants a front derailleur unless its absolutely necessary to their riding.
  • + 4
 My brother still thinks he needs his. He just thinks that the granny is a safe backup but he didn't quite understand that these cassettes accommodate that. Oh well. It's just weird that a 16 year old hasn't bought into the hype.
  • + 3
 A group of my riding buddies are all still running 2x and all but one are very skeptical of my 1x n/w ring And it's climbing ability and ability to hold a chain. Meanwhile during rides I'm usually leading up and downhill all while they're dropping chains and complaining away. Odd.
  • + 17
 I have the opposite experience. The two that bought into 1x drop chains and struggle, swear, and suffer on steep technical climbs here in the northeast...weird.
  • + 1
 @silvbullit On SRAM? At least my 1x has been expensively flawless (It cost a lot, but it's performed really good as well) especially in the chain retention category.

Climb wise, I know what you mean. My 34/42 is an a*shole on steep climbs.
  • + 1
 The SRAM rings outperform all others retention wise.
  • + 2
 @Uberbob102000 34/42 is a really low gear, if you are on a 26" bike. As silvbullit already mentioned it depends on where you live. I'm running a N/W 32 ring with a 9speed 11-34 cassette and an old x9 RMech. Haven't dropped a chain in rough terrain by now, the only thing I really liked to have is a higher gear 32 / 11 is just not well suited for fast riding.
  • + 1
 My lowest gear on my 29er is 32/36 and I think it is perfect for riding here in good ol' northeaster Ohio. I don't have nearly the range you fellas are bragging about, but I do just fine.
  • + 1
 NW is overrated. I've NEVER dropped a chain with my 2*10 setup, and no, it's not because I'm riding slow. I used to drop chains all the time on my old 2*9 bike - without a clutch derailleur.
Also, stating that 10 tooth is what makes or breaks the 1-by setup is just stupid. You loose 9.1% top speed... So if you were able to hit 30 mph on a 10 tooth, you're going to hit 27.3mph on a 11 tooth cog. Seriously, who cares...
  • + 1
 You're not dropping chains on your 2x10 setup because as it drops off, your front derailleur guides it back on... remove your front der on your non-clutch, non-n/w setup, and head through a rock garden - it'll likely fall off.
  • + 3
 Kainerm, with a 10t people are running a smaller ring - like a 28t - to get even lower gearing without compromising the top end. Its closer to the range of 2x.
  • + 2
 Dude. He's saying that he used to drop chains BEFORE he had a clutch RD... the FD did *not* guide the chain back on because he was still dropping chains. Honestly it's kind of an either-or thing IMO. Regular chainring with clutch RD works surprisingly well, as does NW with non-clutch RD. Using both is best, but either one will work. To me, the real game changer was the clutch derailleur. Narrow-wide, 11sp, and 1x are all kinda nice, but I'm currently running 2x10 with a clutch RD and direct mount FD and it's pretty bomber. I'm really happy with the front shift quality and consistency, and the range is nice for really long rides. The whole reason I converted my old bike to 1x was because the FD never seemed to stay tuned for more than a week or so and I was still dropping chains... as long as the FD works properly I don't have a problem with it at all. Though if I ever get a dropper for the hardtail I might go 1x to keep the bars from getting too busy.
  • + 3
 Kainerm - You don't understand the purpose of the 10 tooth. It simply provides a wider range of gear ratios on the cassette. You can gear a 1x setup however high or low you want. That wider gear ratio doesn't have to be put at the high end, it can be used on the low end instead for climbing. Just use a smaller front ring.
  • + 3
 @bishopmike

Why would someone take the front derailleur off of their 2x setup and ride through rock gardens?
  • + 2
 @bishopsmike: Nope, I've never ever dropped the chain on that bike (Sram X.9 Type 2 /w clutch, medium cage, SLX front mech). Not onto the smaller cog, and certainly not off entirely. Even if it drops to the smaller cog you WILL notice - it doesn't get picked up immediately. The clutch is good enough to prevent the chain drops. Without clutch - no question, you're going to drop it. But that is beside the point - point is, 2x10 can work flawless if set up correctly.
@dfiler: well, that's another way to look at it, but the outcome is the same: you're gaining 9.1% more range. Downside: New freehub, new (stupidly expensive) cassette, new (expensive) derailleur... The reason why 1x10 is so popular is because to get the benefits, you don't really need the 10 tooth. You can get by with a 11 tooth just as well, you're just going to compromise some range.
  • + 2
 I'd argue that the 1x10 is popular entirely due to price. If wide range cassettes and derailleurs were cheaper, very few trail riders would run a low range setups. That 9.1% increased range is critical in some regions just as 2x setups are in some regions due to steepness of terrain.
  • + 2
 That's the point. 1x10 is popular because it can do 90% of the stuff for 50% of the money. 1x11 is a giant scam - fewer components for much, much more money, even though prices are starting to become less idiotic. Still: When "upgrading" a Bike to 1x11, you'll need a new freehub driver (if your hub can be converted at all, that is), new cassette, new derailleur, new chainring, new trigger. Whereas for a 1x10 setup, you'd simply buy a large cog and maybe a new cage for the derailleur. New chainring if you want it. Means ~600$ for 1x10 vs. 200$ for a 1x10 conversion. Which is cheaper to maintain, because a new XT cassette + big sprocket costs about half as much as a new SRAM 11-Speed cassette.
Cheapest 11-speed SRAM derailleur: 160€. Same money as an XTR M9000, 10-spd XTR is 130€, XT 50€.
Cheapest 11-speed SRAM cassette: 220€. XTR M9000: 190€. XT 10-Speed: 41€+60€ for a 42t cog
So even the cheapest SRAM 11-Speed parts cost as much as Shimanos most expensive sets. Rewasonable, but still high-end 10 Speed costs half as much as SRAM 11spd.
  • + 2
 I just built up a new bike and 1x11 increased the total cost by around 3%. Totally worth it for me.

Feel free to continue the hate fest though.
  • + 14
 I'm not so sure Shimano's decision to go after the "I want to spend $600 on a new drive train, but I'm too cheap to spend $80 on a new freehub" market is going to work out. I know I would rather just spend a little more to get the larger range of X1.
  • + 8
 Shimano doesn't want to change the hub standard cause they know most of the market still uses the same hub standard. It keeps manufacturing costs down and makes it very expendable with other lower cost groupsets. You can probably use the new XT while still using the older SLX hub.
  • + 18
 Full XT 1x11 upgrade would cost $440.
Full X1 1x11 upgrade would cost $900.
XD doesn't just add $80-100 for the driver, but an additional $150 for the cassette as well. Every time you replace it.
  • + 2
 @kc358: Wait what? I think the XT M8000 is awesome and I'm definitely happy there's both XD and standard options available but the GX is nowhere NEAR 150 more for the cassette.

The SRAM GX XG-1150 11 speed cassette is MSRP: $144 USD, while the XT M8000 11 speed is $139.99.
  • + 2
 X1 cassette is $313, $170 more than XT.
The GX price is more comparable, but I'm not sure the quality is. I don't have the experience to know. Nor do we know the weight difference.
  • + 1
 You have to take into account the fact that you NEED an XD driver to accommodate the GX XG-1150 cassette. It may only be MSRP: $144 USD but the XD driver for existing hubs is an extra $100'ish dollars...
  • + 1
 whats with Shimano and the names anyway? XTM800, is there some nomenclature they follow?
  • + 0
 @dthomp325 - Right...because everybody currently has a wheelset with a convertible rear hub. So we're all set.

Nevermind that the VAST majority of riders are still riding on non-convertible Shimano or Shimano-clone cup-and-cone hubs. For all those people, the ONE FLIPPIN TOOTH increase of GX/X1/X01/XX1 now starts at $500, and that doesn't include any drivetrain parts. So those folks are faced with the choice of XT at $600, or X1 for $1500. Or they can accept a lesser, heavier drivetrain in GX (which wasn't meant to compete with XT, thats what X1 is for), for only $1100.

11-42 will very quickly overtake 10-42.
  • + 0
 This is the first I'm hearing that a new hub & spokes installed on an existing rear rim costs $500 bucks. Pretty sure an equivalent hub to an XT or so would at be least... slightly cheaper.
  • + 0
 That was for a new wheel. But ok, we'll say $300 then for a rebuild on the rear wheel. I have yet to find an XD hub for under $200, and i've been looking pretty regularly. For comparison purposes, brand new XT hubs are available pretty much everywhere for $50-ish.
  • + 2
 That makes it not a zero sum game, however: a hope pro 2 evo(as an example of a $200 hub) is 10 times the hub an XT is. Also, $500 for a rear wheel is fairly criminal.
  • + 0
 Pro2 vs. XT is fully debateable, as from my experience, the few hope hubs i've been involved with have had significantly more problems than the endless supply of XT hubs i've used.

That's irrelevant however, as if you want an XD-equipped hub of any quality, you are paying $200 minimum. If you simply need a reliable standard hub, the XT is perfect at $50. But i'm talking from the point of view of the vast majority of buyers out there who are simply looking for the cheapest way to equip a reliable bike. This means that to them, an XD hub is four times the price of a standard hub.
  • + 1
 You're in the minority if you think cup & cone bearings are more reliable than sealed ones. Cone bearings require technique to service, that alone makes a hub built on sealed bearings a better hub for your average rider. Furthermore, Hope hubs beat XTs for engagement by a not insignificant amount.

The majority of riders are using whatever wheels came on their bike. so for many of them , they're on 10(or even 9) until they buy a new bike. Their new bike will come with whatever hub standard is appropriate for their drivetrain, & almost certainly one that can be converted, these days(or the shop will offer them trade value.) From a shop perspective, upselling them to a model with 1x & an XD compatible cassette is a no brainer.
  • + 0
 Again, debateable. Any enthusiast rider who wrenches on his own bike better damn well know how to rebuild a hub that's been the standard for nearly three decades. Conversely, it's unlikely that anyone who works on a bike at home is going to have a $200+ bearing puller set. For the "average" rider, who drops his bike off at the LBS every spring for a tuneup, it doesn't matter which is easier to service. As for engagement, Shimano and clone hubs are more than sufficient...my primary bike has a "high engagement" sealed cartridge hub, but my secondary has good old XT. I switch back and forth regularly and couldn't tell you if you had switched out the wheelsets between them. It's inconsequential.

You are right about new bikes, but remember that convertible hubs are pricey, and as such will only be spec'd on higher end builds. The vast majority of riders are riding bikes under $3k with cheap wheelsets. An OEM cannot put X1 or GX on a cheap wheelset, but it can put M8000 on a cheap wheelset. This opens the doors for XT to trickle down the line a bit.
  • + 1
 FYI: your first paragraph condenses down to: If you're passionate about bikes, then you should learn something because it's old, & "I don't know how to rebuild a Hope hub." Hope's own instructions don't call for anything more than their hub support, which is less than 20 bucks. Neither do I9's. In fact, I don't know of a sealed bearing hub that needs any kind of puller, period. Interesting that you think other people should know how to rebuild cup & cone, but don't actually know how to replace the bearings in a modern hub.

If you think the factory houses in taiwan don't have a XD drivers in their catalog waiting for some manufacturer to ask for it, you're nuts. Hub availability problems, aren't, if you're Trek, Specialized, or Giant.
  • + 0
 Huh?

I did say that if you're passionate about building bikes, you should know how to rebuild a cup and cone hub...cause it's old. Without question. If you cannot handle the simple process of disassembling the hub, cleaning, greasing, re-assembling and tensioning, then you should not be touching sealed cartridge bearings either because you can do far more expensive damage there. Just because you are scared of it doesn't mean that everyone else needs to be too. Second, it's clear you have not replaced many sealed cartridge bearings in your time. Believe me, i'm not the slightest bit intimidated by them and actually DO have the $200 puller set, because of how many times I have to replace cartridge bearings (not just in hubs, mind you).

Your second paragraph has less than nothing to do with anything I said. Nothing I said had anything to do with hub availability, problem or otherwise.
  • + 2
 You guys are so knowledgeable and pasionate about bikes. Outta boys. Keep the discusion going so the rest of us non enthisiast bike mechanics can learn from your almighty knowledge.
  • + 0
 Yea, I sure don't know what I'm doing, :rolleyes: I know how to read the instructions, which you don't, apparently. I've replaced the bearing in plenty of sealed hubs, never needed a blind puller, & never seen a manufacturer call for it in their actual, official instructions on bearing replacement. If you're really suggesting that pushing a bearing in is harder than fiddling with cone tension, then I've got some skateboard kids to introduce you to who are better mechanics than you. As to your commentary that I'm "scared" of cup & cone, I'm not. But there's a better option now, that keeps the bearings cleaner, better sealed from the elements, & requires less maintenance. Advocating for the old option because you want to seem impressive for learning a trivial mechanical task is childish. I can cook over a campfire, too, but I don't do it every night.


You said an OEM can't put GX on a cheap wheelset, because convertible hubs are expensive. You also complained that there aren't any cheap ones. How is that not commentary on hub the availability? If an OEM wants to put GX on a cheap wheelset, all they have to do is call up novatec & ask for a XD model of one of their cheap hubs. I guarantee they have it drawn up already, & only haven't produced it due to little demand for a cheap, XD compatible hub, since, until now, the groupset was too expensive to put on cheap bikes.
  • + 0
 This is no longer a discussion that has anything offer anyone. It needs to stop, we clearly do not agree and are not going to change each others minds. I'm out.

As for the second matter of "hub availability"...remember XD tech carries licensing fees while the old "Shimano" freehub does not (patent expired long ago). You will not see truly entry-level XD hubs for some time.
  • + 0
 I recently upgraded my XC bike to X01, and it was $650 for everything (XDDriver for Stan's hub, X01 cassette, X01 Derailleur, X01 Shifter, XX1 chain, Absolute Black elliptical narrow-wide ring). The freehub was $80 and didn't require any special tools beyond a couple of cones wrenches to swap. Admittedly, I paid sale prices, and I got a good deal on the X-Dome cassette. I'm guessing XTR would be much more expensive, and XT would probably be a similar price for a heavier system with less gear range.

Sram really has a huge advantage with the X-Dome cassette. It is much lighter and a feat of engineering compared to Shimano XTR, who's still sticking with the old school "individual cogs pinned to a carrier" design. Now that Sram is releasing pinned versions of the cassette, we're going to see OEM prices drop significantly, and although the pinned versions will be heavier, they will probably still be competitive with XTR's weight. If Shimano sticks with their standard freehub body, the only way they can compete on gear range is by adding a 44t cog, which is going to be even heavier.

GX1 + XDDriver will be cheaper for OEM than XT + standard, and GX1 will have more gear range and be the same weight or lighter. I imagine the OEM market is many times the size of the "I want to upgrade my drivetrain, but not my freehub/hub" market, and I think Shimano has made a major error in going after a seemingly small minority of riders. @TheRaven Giant for one is already speccing XDDriver freehubs on relatively low-end OEM Formula hubs, and I imagine other brands are doing the same.

I think Shimano has let the 1x market pass by because they're betting their R+D resources heavily on electronic shifting instead, but that doesn't seem to be what the majority of mtb riders want.
  • + 4
 To me shimano seem to have played a blinder. Their free hub is pretty much the industry standard. I'm surprised more people aren't happier that the big dog has listened to the little people and produced an affordable 11 speed system that will by and large fit on their existing rolling stock. I don't see how all the keyboard warriors can complain about new standards all the time and not be happy with this.
  • - 2
 I can get M9000 XTR for just under $700 (Cassette, Crank w/ring and BB, shifter, rear mech, chain) using sale prices and special deals like you did for X01. If I re-use my m980 crankset and just buy a 32 or 34t N/W ring, it's $450. For smart shoppers like us, M8000 will be right around $400 complete (minus brakes, of course).

GX is NOT going to be lighter than XT. The GX cassette is almost 400g, The M8000 cassette will be 340-350g max. And how about the rest of the group? The XT cranks will be lighter than X1 for example (roughly 680g for XT vs 750g for X1). XT will be competitive with X1 in weight, and cheaper in price.
  • + 1
 Oh look, the "XD tech carries licensing fees" chestnut. www.xddriverbody.com No, for the billionth time, it doesn't. "Royalty free license" is not a hard concept to grasp.
  • + 2
 That's bullshit. XTR cassette is at 330g with titanium cogs and a 40t. Maybe you can explain how to make a cheaper cassette using steel and a aluminum 42t Big Grin
  • + 1
 @hankpank - you realize what the classic weight difference between the titanium XTR and aluminum XT cassettes has been over the years, right? 6-10g. The m780 is 264g and the m980 is 255g. I'm allowing for an additional 10-15g for the larger low cog.
  • + 2
 Honestly i'd be surprised seeing this cassette coming out below 400g. The cogs are much bigger than on the old cassettes resulting in more weight difference. Also more titanium cogs that need to be replaced by steel, plus the 42t vs 40t. Does xt use a carbon spider same as xtr?
  • + 1
 @groghunter That is even more disappointing that Shimano or somebody else hasn't just made a XD compatible freebody for Shimano hubs. If using XD driver body specs are a royalty free, then why not? What kind of patents does shimano have for its freebody shape that cannot be infringed?

Surprised somebody hasn't fired up a CNC machine and just made one, they would make a killing. Would buy.
  • + 0
 @warimono - the Shimano freehub is ancient, I can't imagine it's under patent anymore. I think people might just be afraid of what would happen when you try to attach a SRAM freehub to a Shimano hub. It's kinda like putting a Mustang motor into a Camaro. We might all be killed by the resulting black hole.
  • + 1
 @warimono because Shimano's corporate culture is to try to create standards, & dictate the course of this sort of stuff, rather than use standards proposed by others. You see this in Japanese corporate culture quite often: look at how worried Nintendo was about using standard CDs or DVDs for games, look at the plethora of memory card standards Sony's used instead of SD, etc.

Not that other cultures & companies don't do the same(Campagnolo, anyone?) but it seems to be especially prevalent in Japan.
  • + 3
 It's all of them actually - Shimano (cup and cone, dual-control, centerlock), SRAM (XD, Boost, Gripshift, Maxle), and Campagnolo (everything). They all do it and it sucks. We need a central consortium...a "standards board" made up of a bunch of riders that can set the standards across the board. Something needs to be changed? Ok Shimano, SRAM or whomever, propose your ideas to the board and let them pick the best...the winner gets to set the standard and be the first to sell it, but everyone gets to use it. No extorting royalties.
  • + 0
 See, the problem you glossing over, is some companies, like SRAM, would be happy to abide by that sort of thing: they see it as a value. Other companies, like Shimano, would take their ball & go home if their standard wasn't the one that was selected. You think there isn't standards bodies for the stuff Sony makes? they participate in them, when their standard wins (Blu-ray) but won't when theirs loses(memory stick.) It depends on the corporate culture. It's happens everywhere, Microsoft & Oracle are two examples of bad eggs, & their American, but there's definitely a bias towards it in Japanese corporate culture. Which isn't surprising, if you know anything about their corporate culture, it's very different from here or Europe.
  • + 0
 HA! What?!

So you're telling me that if the standards board selected XD as the new standard, Shimano would just close up shop?

Really?!

I think we've got a SRAM fanboy here.
  • + 0
 I said nothing about them closing shop. what I meant by "take their ball & go home" is that they'd just ignore the standards body & make what they wanted anyway. Of course, you either didn't read the rest of my comment, or are intentionally ignoring the entire rest of that paragraph, as I provided an example exactly illustrating that point.

Also, OH PLEASE. SRAM fanboy? I'm not the one spreading misinformation, like "XD requires a licensing fee." In fact, you can find multiple examples, going back quite a long time, including in this article, that I'll be buying XT, next time I buy a drivetrain. Multi-release is a game changer, & I won't spend money on another drivetrain without it. Heck, I've got a perfectly good SRAM drivetrain on my second bike that I've thought about taking off, just because I want multi-release. That said, when I go 11 speed, I'll be putting a 10-42 cassette on that bike, not an 11-42, because XD is something that SRAM got right.
  • + 0
 Then why are you making up things to bitch about Shimano over? Nobody disagrees that there are things Shimano can do better, just as there are things that SRAM can do better. You've just spent your last half dozen posts bitching about Shimano and promoting SRAM.

The whole point of the my theoretical "standards board" is that "doing their own thing" would not be an option as there would be no compatible bikes out there, they would all require the "established standard". So Shimano's options would be to accept the standard, or concede the market. Again, it's not a viable idea and was never meant to be. I was just making a point.
  • + 2
 You guys are so full of shit. Smile
  • + 1
 f*ck this argument I'mma ride single speed! *hauls away*
  • + 0
 Groghunter knows what's up. His comments are 100% accurate.
  • - 1
 Yeah he's a pretty cool guy.
  • + 0
 Actually, I made up nothing, I simply answered a question @warimono asked. Also, 3 is not half a dozen.
  • + 13
 great move on the 1X11 shimano. fail on the proprietary BCD for the chainrings. the heck im gonna buy your cranks and can't find a 'standard' BCD chain ring to work with that.
  • + 5
 I thought the same thing. However if those stainless steel teeth hold up really well and the square teeth hold the chain as well as a narrow-wide then I don't think I'd be worried about needing to change it to a different brand of ring in the future.
  • + 6
 There you go. Keep your current cranks and save 200+!
  • + 1
 I'm still considering going with SLX cranks with normal 104bcd. A little cheaper, maybe still the same weight, and somehow the SLX cranks still look better than XT.
  • + 3
 Sram also has the proprietary BCD on theirs. I fail to see how this is a difference :/
  • + 3
 ^ no difference, they both suck. Racefsce is doing it right with direct mount rings/spiders
  • + 1
 Ya direct mount rings look like the way to go. Super clean and simple. Seems like they would be lighter too, is that true?
  • + 2
 Sram's direct mount aint half bad either. I have a GXP mount Race-Face ring on my X9 cranks to tide me over while I save up for SexC cranks, pretty nice interface on the GXP stuff, simple to swap, and light-weight, can't for the life of me figure out why Sram puts a spider on their high end carbon cranks, then bolts the oddball ring to that. The days of fixed spiders are over, why anybody still makes a high end crank that uses a spider is beyond me.
  • + 3
 The issue I see with direct mount is if you want to change hearing, you have to pull the cranks off. With a spider you can just unbolt the chainring and put on a new one. At less as far as I understand, I don't have either 1x to know for sure. Also, I don't see why high end carbon cranks can't have a lightweight carbon spider with no loss to DM weight while maintaining quick gear changing. Plus, it allows the use of steel chainring a for longevity with minimal weight gain.
  • + 2
 Ya that makes sense, if the entire chainring was stainless steel direct-mount it might weigh more than a stainless steel ring with a spider. I really like the idea of stainless rings.
  • + 2
 @kc358 you might be able to change a 34 or higher without taking the cranks off with a 104 BCD. but if you run 32 or 30, & run it on the inner tabs, which you should, if you want a good chain line, I've got 2 words for you: good luck.
  • + 1
 With 104bcd, yes, it may only be possible on the bigger chainrings. But I'm more referring to newly designed cranks using 1x dedicated spiders with smaller bcd, or multiple bcd spider options. Also would be designed with correct chain line.
  • + 2
 Is removing the cranks even an issue? A dozen or so turns with the big hex, light tap with a soft-faced mallet, done.

Having a replaceable spider is awesome on a 2x set-up, I scrapped a couple cranks due to spider tweakage, but when you swap to a 1x set-up, it should be spiderless IMHO. Even with a stainless chainring, it could be pinned to an aluminum center like a brake rotor.
  • + 1
 It is for me, due to using a wheels mfg 24mm BB with an FSA crank(long story short: it's compatible, but a super tight fit.) There's also probably more than a few people that have a SRAM or ethirteen crank that requires a high amount of torque on the crank bolt(especially the ethirteen, you ruin the cranks otherwise) That they don't have tools to properly apply.
  • + 13
 Reading Shimano drivetrain reviews isn't even necessary... you know they're going to kick ass.

Cost/specs/weight are the only unknowns when a new Shimano product comes out.
  • + 11
 You people do realise that the 10t sprocket on sram cassettes spits in the face of good engineering. The inefficiencies an wear caused by using such a small diameter sprocket with high torque loads is just plain daft.
  • + 7
 Whereas an 11T is just fine, right...
  • + 1
 Back in the day I used to buy 11t and 12t cogs all the time as they would wear out 3-to-1 compared to the cassette. So I'd imagine a 10t would wear out even quicker and you end up replacing the whole cassette. I haven't worn my 10t out yet, but it's only been 5 months...
  • + 5
 Most people around here wear out the climbing gears of their cassettes first, not the highest gear. Seriously, the climbing gears get worn into saw teeth while the smaller cogs show almost no sign of wear.

Is that different elsewhere?
  • - 1
 1.) People wear out climbing gears first anyway
2.) High torque is in the big cogs, not the small ones
3.) 10T is where the magic comes from. A 32T ring with a 10T cog gives you the same top end as a 35T chainring with 11T cog so you get to keep your low end too.
  • + 2
 Well just for one example if you ride to the trailhead on the road you'll spend a good amount of time in the small cog. Could wear it out pretty quick that way, especially if you like a slower cadence with a stronger push.
  • + 6
 32x10 is 17.5mph @ 70, 20 @ 80, 22.5 @ 90, 25 @ 100

I have a hard time any of you are maintaining speeds that are a workout (90+ rpm/23+mph) on a road bike on a mountain bike with knobby tires in a non-aero position.
  • + 2
 Seriously? I feel like spinning out my 32 is no problem on a flat or slightly downhill road. I'm a pretty low cadence rider, but still... it's super easy to build up speed when there are no obstacles in the way.
  • + 1
 How low of cadence and do you have an 11 or 10T small cog? If have a 11T and you're at 60rpm, of course that's not a challenging pace. But if you have a 10T and are at a *normal* cadence (in the 90 range), that's almost 23mph. If you can maintain 23mph on a mountain bike with knobbed tires on flat ground without a tailwind for more than like 10 minutes you could be a cat1 racer.

I'm just saying that "I can't ride on the road with a 1x setup" is an ignorant statement. You can make it work if you want to, easily.
  • + 1
 @bkm303 - also, low cadence is not what "spinning out" means. at 90rpm you're going almost 23mph, that's plenty fast on flat ground on a mountain bike. That's faster than most road bikers maintain.
  • + 11
 I guess the 11x40 wasn't received as well as they'd hoped.. The 11x42 is a nice addition and a quick turn on their part. Dimpled levers are pretty sweet too.
  • + 7
 Do people actually find their fingers slipping off their levers?
  • + 9
 @mnorris122 Not really but have you felt saint levers, it is a much nicer feel, even through gloves
  • + 7
 @mnorris122 Subtle details in ergonomics can go a long way in your riding
  • + 5
 XTR is a race group so they only did 11-40 on purpose to keep the % change between gears low. XT was always going to have the 11-42.
  • + 1
 I actually dislike the dimpled levers for normal biking. With gloves, they are awesome, but without they are not too comfortable.
  • + 1
 I ran a 40t for a while, but struggled on some of the climbs around here. Now that I have switched to a 42t and a radr cage I have been passing guys in spandex Smile .
  • + 6
 What I've learned from pinkbike comments: Different chainring sizes have no effect on suspension performance whatsoever. None at all. Not even when your main pivot is placed where it is in order to change squat and kickback characteristics when you change into the big or small ring.

Shimano is totally wrong when they're still supplying 2x/3x systems. Obviously.
  • + 4
 heh that's why I won't be going to 1x. I can definitely feel the difference in antisquat between 24t and 32t chainrings.
  • + 4
 www.ridingfeelsgood.com/suspension-linkage-kinematics-basics-anti-squat-pedal-kickback

for anyone curious about what these coots are talking about. the video halfway down the page is crazy
  • + 6
 Once you've rolled with direct mount chainrings there's no going back to bolts... those things should be dead and gone forever! Otherwise very cool Shimano. P.S. I'm still waiting for that 10 speed 11-40 cassette.
  • + 1
 Shimano isn't going to release 10 speed 11-40 anytime soon for two reasons. Shimano has always been about closer gear spacing for optimum cadence, and now they'd rather try to make you spend more money replacing your entire drivetrain with 11 speed parts. But Praxis has a pretty nice one coming out in the next month or so that you should check out though. $130 and 322g, so it's cheaper than an XT 11 speed cassette and lighter than an XT 10 speed cassette. They say no RADr cage required.
  • + 3
 I'm on a 2X system with a 20 granny ring and a 34 as my lowest gear. Anyone know what the equivalent would be with 1X and, say, a 34 front ring ? I kind of need this low a gear as every ride near my place features evil gradients.
  • + 3
 According to Sheldon Brown's gear calculator, I would need a 55-tooth cog on the back. Where can I get one of those 1Xers?
Hang on, I could use a 30 chainring and a 50-tooth cog... oh...
  • + 0
 be honest... how often do you sit and pedal on your lowest gear? 30front x 42rear is more than I could ever need on even the steepest climbs.
  • + 3
 Still don't see any benefit to this over my existing 10-speed XT with a 42T cog. I'm not a roadie, I don't need tiny ratio jumps to optimize my cadence, and I already do a lot of double and triple shifting as it is. I'll take a wider range over smaller jumps any day of the week. Why on earth would I want to shell out for a new drivetrain that is arguably worse than my current one?

Oh well, looks like we got lots of suckers here. That should drive down the clearance prices on 10-speed XT!
  • + 1
 once you convert, a new 11 speed XT cassette will arguably be far cheaper than an old 10 speed XT cassette + ~$80 extender cog. i would be interested in converting the 11 speed cassette into a ~7 speed, it would make things lighter and simpler
  • + 1
 That would be true... if you were buying a new extender cog with every new cassette. But I went through 3 cassettes last season and the Wolftooth 42T cog just got swapped over each time, still looks pretty much brand new. Generally, the extender cogs are made with better materials and better machining than the base cassette, and have more teeth, so they wear a lot slower. The actual cost of ownership, accounting for replacing wear parts is still way lower on a 10 speed than it is on an 11 speed.
  • + 3
 I think the majority of riders do need a front derailleur. Road bikes still have them and Shimano debuted 2x versions because its preferred in Europe in Asia. One of my buddies tells me he swaps out his front ring depending on where he's riding because it only takes a few minutes with his cinch crank setup. It only takes me a split second to change my front ring with my front shifter and I can do it in the middle of a ride. I've never had the problem of dropped chains that everyone else seems to have. When I ask about their maintenance schedule most of them are running worn out chains and the bike hasn't seen a tune up in a year. its usually a maintenance issu rather than a design issue. I'm glad both Sram and Shimano blinked this year. Sram had to cough up a 2x11 group and Shimano had to cough up 1x11. I don't think 11 cogs are necessary and I hate the crappy chain lines they create. However, these new groups will cause the lower groups to benefit from trickle down so I'll benefit from the this new stuff when buying the mid level components I prefer for the robustness and consistency day to day. Win win.
  • + 3
 Nice Photo work. Anytime you need more time to make a verdict - please take it. Being first / second to press with BS content doesn't do anyone favors. That said, please continue holding manufacturers accountable for their products.
  • + 3
 Don't really see the point of going 1x11 when the smallest cog is an 11. 11-42 on 10 speeds is more than enough and actually better cause it doesn't make you shift endlessly...
  • + 2
 Shhhh... don't interrupt the new Shimano jerk-fest....

I still don't understand why Shimano is getting praise for being "cheaper" when if you want cheaper just by the current XT and a one-up 42T cog. Makes a better drivetrain, like you said.
  • + 2
 something about not wanting to lose when I am on two wheels... even when I hit pavement at the bottom of the mountain. my take is, I want to be faster than anyone else on two wheels beside me including rodies. the look on their faces when they hear the roar of my tires approaching them is priceless.
  • + 1
 "if your not first your last"
  • + 5
 You realize that you're not actually faster than them, right? Not hard to win when the other person doesn't know it's a race.
  • + 0
 they are probably just on the cooldown of their metric century - they aren't racing you
  • + 1
 your missing the point debbie downers! i am what some might say over competitive. i don't take well to being passed. mostly in races! and treesmoker since i like your name i wont be mean but that's like totally your opinion man. and a win is a win right? plus i passed them five miles before town. just looks bad to roadies when a mountain bike is out front is all i was trying to say.one love
  • + 1
 It's like getting passed by someone on an e-bike... doesn't really count.
  • + 0
 that is total BS!!!! I would race it till the battery ran out then pass them! HA! haters gonna hate. you guys have helped motivate me to get faster by all your nonsense. just wish I lived close to any of you so I could ride the ride instead of talking about it. then your minds will be opened. I guess yall must not ride with any fast people...
  • + 0
 and tigerteeuwen, have you ever raced a xc before? something tells me if you did you did so in the beginner cat.
  • + 0
 No, first race this year actually. Not sure why you asked though, I guess I challenge people's times on strava that are actually trying, not some random dude on an e-bike with a leather jacket.
  • - 2
 i already knew the answer. once you get into racing anything, you will have a problem with someone riding in front of you. its called testosterone and being competitive
  • + 0
 Guy! Being competitive is subjective to it actually being a contest.... don't fool yourself guy! Go ahead and follow some e-biker how before his battery runs out, and feel like a stalker for all I care.... lmao
  • + 0
 that's not true man. i ride with dudes that are faster and when we do ride the are just having fun. i am trying to keep their pace. therefore i am being competitive without my friends knowing i am trying to pass them. that sounds like a "contest" you are seriously out of your element man!!! unless you have a real point stop commenting. i am happily married and have plenty of friends so no need to stalk. and i am not following anyone on the road. just trying to get home. and stop talking e bikes. they don't even count. your having to use an extreme to try and make your point. you are not competitive (never raced) so why do you care? just keep thinking like you do and you will never stand on the first place podium GUY!
  • + 1
 Guy!! You were talking about racing the guy till his battery died! Guy!!
  • + 1
 Passing a poseur roadie is like bragging about passing someone in a wheelchair. Just cruise alongside and say hello. The poseur is more concerned about his costume matching his bike and hoping his gut goes unnoticed than giving a crap some wanker on a mountain bike just rode past him.
  • + 2
 I made the jump from 8 to 9 speed last year. Perhaps next year I could move to 10? But, I'm feeling nervous, it might have to wait until 2017. It seems the rate of change of adding cogs is greater than my rate of adoption of the new technology.

Do you think I could fit 8 of an 11spd cassette onto a zero dish rear hub? Now that would be good...
  • + 1
 Funny that we have these "close-ratio" cassettes, and shifters that can jump 2 or even 4 gears at a shift. I don't need so many different speeds...I just need the range. My 1x10 with converted 11-42 rear is *just about* enough range from top end to low end for me.

To your question...I'd be curious to hear if it works.
  • + 1
 See no reason why you couldn't make it work, but you'd have to choose which 8 gears to use. Pretty sure you'd lose a good chunk of your gear range compared to a 9sp or 8sp cassette. The best range you could get would be 11-28 using consecutive cogs. Might be able to do a hack job picking the cogs you want, but it'd be a lot of work and shift intervals might be shitty. Interesting idea though... maybe mods like that could keep 1up alive Razz
  • + 3
 Any mention of the shimano chain to go with this,can't imagine how shit an 11 speed chain would be if the 10 speed ones are anything to go by,lots of trail side repairs me thinks.
  • + 1
 the Ultegra/XT 11sp chain has been out for some time (HG700) and it's great. you can always go for the DuraAce/XTR one if you want to take it one level higher (HG900)
  • + 1
 This XT M8000 group is great news, if not only to provide some competition to SRAM's offerings and to cater to people who don't want to buy XD freewheel. I just feel that Shimano are a bit erratic and loosing focus:

- Still pushing 2x and 3x like it's 90s: yeah, choice is great, but to me this is an indication of either loosing contact with the changing MTB landscape or focusing on XC/marathon bikes
- Indication of the latter is the fact that they only had XC bikes on display at Riva Bike Festival equipped with the M8000 groupset. 1x doesn't seem to be a priority to them.
- No XTR level 11-42 cassette, but now XT has one?. It's ackward that their top-of-the-line 1x groupset is hugely lacking in this respect.

My prediction is that the M8000 1x groupset is NOT going to be big hit in 2016 trail and enduro bikes. SRAM has a strong offerings across all price ranges with XG, X1, and XX1 groupsets. M8000 is just too little and too late.
  • + 1
 I'm currently running 2x10 XT drivetrain, if I want to go 1x11 do I just need to buy a new cassette, shifter and 1x11 ring? Or do I need new cranks aswell? Can a 10spd XTR rear mech be used on 11spd or is it all indexed to max out at 10spd?
  • + 5
 You'll need a new shifter, derailler, chain and cassette, as well as a single ring up front. I would reccomend one like the race face narrow wide since it's cheaper. Your current cranks should be compatible, just remove the two rings you have on there currently and remove the front derailleur.
  • + 7
 A OneUp RAD cage would be a cheap way to give your existing XTR rear derailleur the range it needs.
www.oneupcomponents.com/products/r-a-d-cage
  • + 4
 I haven't read the full product description on the RAD, but even if it has the range, if the cable pull to derailleur movement ratio is different on the new mech (likely) then you will have a fancy green derailleur that still wont work with your cassette.
  • + 2
 You'll need a new Mech, 11spd chain, cassette, shifter and a Raceface chain ring or something similar that works with an 11 speed.
  • + 2
 Personally I won't use a chainring smaller than 30 tooth, but if Shimano is going to set their own bolt pattern anyway, as if they wouldn't make the BCD slightly smaller to accomodate a 28t
  • + 0
 You only get an 11t as the smallest cog, 28t-11t is really small, I max my 36t-10 (XX1) out at 50 km/ph. Riding to the trails with a 28t-11t would be quite frustrating I'm guessing..
  • - 1
 Fat bikes in soft mud/sand/snow, 29er plus, technical long climbs I see your point but there are people out there who would buy it. And its not like Shimano are trying to conform to 104bcd, so no excuse IMO
  • + 1
 Ben you max out at 110 rpm? If your going 30mph you are already sprinting, and should max near 150 at least.
  • + 1
 I really think I'll change to 2x11 when my current mech needs replacing. No need to change my freehub body (which always held me back from SRAM), and a huge range for high mountain riding - oh, it looks good too! Count me in.
  • + 1
 it's cheaper than sram x1 by a lot. and it's xt. which is way better than x1. in so many ways. who cares about not having a low 10t. i've been riding a 1 by hack on 2 of my bikes for about a year. totesamazeballs!!! anyone who thinks they need more gear range is an idiot.
  • + 1
 Nobody wanna talk about the brakes?
I've only had a front mech for a couple of months in the last 10 years and it was rubbish so I went back to a 1x. 8/9/10/11 whatever, you get used to it....
But I'm sure most would agree the XT brakes have been the bench mark for functionality and value since the last ones hit the market. Now reports of the new ones suffering pump. Yes, could be air bubbles but this wasn't the only report of pump-up and surely the test bikes would have been bled properly!?
Anyone else ridden the M9000?
  • + 1
 I haven't heard "reports of new ones suffering pump". All i've heard is one or two cases of improperly bled brakes. I haven't used a ton of the new brakes, but i've used a few sets (I just put M9000 on my primary bike two weeks ago), and every one has been easier to set up and bed in than the 80-series brakes...and those were really easy. I have yet to have a single issue of any kind.
  • + 1
 That's good news! The only news id heard up until now is that the brakes were inconsistent and suffered from pump-up. Granted that was from two online bike sites (both likely using the same test bikes) and a guy using M9000 with the same issue. So not much to go on...I guess I need to wait for some proper reviews. I'm a big fan of shimano, there's not much to improve on over the M875 but a downgrade would be really disappointing so I'm glad to hear you've had a good experience with yours.
  • + 1
 Kudos - even though they (and much of Europe and Asia) seem to believe that 2x setups are crucial to have sufficient range, and that 10-42 results in ratio changes too big for comfort (a judgment that I absolutely do not agree with), they have delivered:

- A front derailleur that sucks a lot less (everyone reviewing this kit tells the same story on smooth shifting - plus it no longer limits frame/suspension design as much).

- A 1x11 setup that delivers roughly 90% of SRAM's 1x11 range, without the need for an XD driver, at lower cost, and if it lives up to the usual Shimano RD goodness, nice performance.

So there's choice now - which is great.

Ironically, the front derailleur improvements may have been at least partially a result in what they learned in making electronic shifting work well. And so an innovation I absolutely don't care about (electronic shifting - seems more trouble than it's worth in MTB to me, from a cost/benefit perspective) may have just made manual 2x drive trains much more attractive. I still like 1x for where and how I ride - but hey, again, choice is good.
  • + 2
 Yeah the front derailleur innovation is really cool to me. I know nobody wants to talk about it because 2x is so uncool at the moment, but I would personally have never felt the need to drop the FD if the effing thing had worked reliably and without constant adjustment. The idea of a totally reliable 2x is pretty awesome in the long run (once it's cool again to talk about 2x). And you're def right about the Di2 improvements carrying over to mechanical shifting. While electronic shifting will be forever out of my price range (but very cool, IMO), it's awesome that it resulted in new improvements.
  • + 1
 I wish Shimano spec'd what kind of Stainless Steel, as there are many different grades of it. Numerous grades are actually softer and less durable than 7075-T6. Not every NW chainring maker is using the stronger tempered version of 7075 since it's cheaper and easier to machine, apparently including SRAM. Stainless typically has ~90 Brinell Hardness (HB), compred to 150 HB for 7075-T6, 60 HB for 7075 (-0, untempered), 256 HB Ti 3Al-2.5V (grade 9), and 150-550 HB for steel, depending on carbon content and amount of hardening treatment.
  • + 1
 Don't know why every ones is so upset there is no 10t i mean the difference between a 36-11 and 36-10 is nothing in a race just draft and win the sprint 1 cog can't determine what group is better I prefer durability and reliability
  • + 1
 I'm wondering if this 11-42 cassette would be a viable option to use with the Sram 11 speed derailleurs over having to spend a fortune on Sram's 10-42 cassette and then have to change your freehub to accept an XD driver. Seems like everything would line up perfectly and could save people quite a few bucks!!!
  • + 4
 Looks like my wife is getting a new to her 10 speed group!
  • + 3
 I really wish they'd gone 11-45 and ditched the front derailleur permanently.
  • + 6
 @stella10
Yep, probably an XT with oneup 34x11-45 in my future...
  • + 4
 Sounds like Shimano really half-assed this "unveiling"
  • + 1
 My new xtr trail brakes also pump up and have an inconsistent feel. My shop got a warranty replacement set and the same thing is happening. It is not a bleed problem as I've bleed both sets many times.
  • + 0
 Good to see such amazing technology finally being trickled down to "lower end" componentry. Before we know it, I wouldn't be surprised if the 1x11 system will be just as normal as the old 3x9 system we see on standard Walmart bikes today. Leads me to think: What's next? With all these new concepts, does the future potentially hold any new inventions like the 1x11, or are we finally meeting the peak of drivetrain innovation?
  • + 7
 I know people keep saying it, but I'm going to say it again: gearbox.
1x without angled chains, no derailleurs to get ripped off, and gears that last a lifetime with minimal maintenance.
Electronic and/or clutched shifting could bring shift times to a tenth that of derailleurs.
Widespread adoption would reduce costs, weight, and bring money to develop new ways to improve the efficiency.
And remove the drivetrain monopoly.
  • + 2
 Walmart bikes have 7spd
  • + 1
 Hi I have a 2011 Specialized SWORKS Epic. I want to know can I install Shimano XT M8000 Disc Brake,or I can use full set .Thanks
  • + 1
 I am curious what the difference between having a 11t as the smallest cassette ring and a 36t single ring up front versus a 10t cassette ring and a 34t up front.
  • + 2
 XT brakes quality is so mch better than compared to GUIDE brakes for sure!!
  • + 0
 Has nobody noticed the spline that they are using to attach the spider to the crank arm... the same one they used on the original Altus Crankset!!!!! Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
  • + 1
 Fail. Should have been 10 speed 11-42 for a mid to budget groupset making expander 42 rings obsolete, Or 11 speed 10-42 to compete wirh GX and X1
  • + 1
 Damnit I just bought some m785 brakes and installed them like a month ago and their clamp size was a huge issue... Refund...?Big Grin ah... Who am I kidding
  • + 2
 In years this will be awesome. Just in time for 3x11s to come back in style.
  • + 3
 This stuff looks the ducks nuts. Bravo Shimano.
  • + 2
 Does the chain stay on without a front mech or guide, that is the question.
  • + 1
 As an owner of the new XTR M9000 cranks with 1x chainrings, the answer is def YES. No issues at all for me personally although I'm more XC than DH. The fact the chainrings are Stainless steel is a big plus for durability.
  • + 1
 Hi Could anyone can tell me . Does XT M8000 set can install to a 2011 Specialized S-work Epic fram?
  • + 1
 The rear deralleiur/mech actually looks really heavy compared to the old one.
  • + 2
 Key word "Looks". Probably because there is much more material covering the cage and clutch area that gives a slightly bulkier look to the RD. However we would not know if it is lighter or heavier until official weight and specs is published
  • + 1
 Opinions on running the 11spd XT cassette with the rest SRAM? was successful with 10spd XT
  • + 2
 The SRAM and shimano 11 speed cassettes are interchangable, spent a bit of time on an XXTR1 drivetrain. Personally if you want more range just run the SRAM cassette with it, if you want tighter range run the shimano cassette. I wouldn't give up my xx1 for anything currently on the market, although I'm pretty interested in the 44 xx1 cassette expander when I wear out the 42.
  • + 1
 Running a Shimano cassette over the SRAM 11 spd cassette is purely based on price.
  • + 1
 Nice but I wish the Rd looked more like the xt shadow I love the looks of my shadow!!! But still very nice stuff!!
  • - 2
 For those of us who still ride to the trailhead front derraileurs are necessary. Getting passed by roadies is not an option. Maybe the majority of shuttle riding professional bike journalists don't think they're necessary, but please just speak for yourselves. (Not the rest of the mountain biking community.)
  • + 12
 what the f*ck are you talking about?
  • + 8
 He means that the size of single chainring you'd use on trails (30, 32, etc) is too small to use on the road to get to the trail.

If he got a big enough single ring to not spin out easily on the road (36, 38, etc), he would be screwed for steep trail climbing.
  • + 0
 trolllolololol
  • + 3
 Okay....first of all if you care about getting passed by a roadie on the road you care way to much. Secondly, I run a 30t chainring up front and dont even get passed that much; I spin at 20mph on the flats and am not under geared on the road climbs, I just coast going down roads. Thirdly, if your needing to use a large chainring to hammer to the trailhead, your probably wearing yourself out more then you should.
  • + 8
 Don't understand the neg props for fatenduro. If you commute or ride to the trailhead you definitely want higher gearing for the road. Honestly, if you have a FD that actually works reliably I don't really see a downside to having one (aside from not being trendy). If you go over to mtbr or other websites you'll see plenty of people who still love 2x drivetrains.
  • + 4
 34x11 or 32x10 are like 25mph @ 100rpm... not one of you are maintaining that on flat ground. If you're going downhill, just coast at that point.
  • + 3
 Huh? I ride to the trail-head and have zero need for a x2. I run a 9 speed & 34T narrow wide with 11-40 no problem.
If I got a 11-42 or 11-45 it would be even less necessary.
What you meant to say was for people who ride to the trail-head a tiny percentage think they still need a 2x. For the massive majority of those that ride to the trail-head and everyone else in the mountain biking community including journalists the front derailleur needed to die 2-3 years ago as it lingering around is hampering newer frame design geometry, and is an ugly piece of noisy low-tech garbage.
  • + 4
 Yeah. I get somewhat annoyed running 30x11 on 29 to commute to the trailhead... It's not terrible but I'd like better.
  • + 0
 @ZMC888 - agreed.... what gearing for you? 32x10 is plennnnnty fast for me on road
  • + 0
 If you are fast enough to stick with the roadies and you care that much about it, then push a 38 up the climbs. people have been riding 1x's for over a decade. 32x34 was all you got back then. Get off your saddle and pedal.
  • + 3
 Are you wearing the Lycra riding up to the trailhead?
  • + 5
 yes, bibs over the jersey just how you're suppose to do it.
  • - 1
 Wow! so many bitter 1x riders! Talk about no sense of humor. Of course a roadie's going to pass you if you're on a bike twice as heavy, with tires 5x as wide, pushing a torso's worth of air resistance and a full face perched on top of your head for some extra anti-aero wind effects. Sure you could go fast on a 1x (if you pedal like a crack addict having a seizure) But if you want to get to your climb trail warm and relaxed it's way nicer to push a big gear slow. I rarely see 1x on the long tech climbs, they always seem to take the fire road. But hey, 1x'ers might actually like their climbs boring. As for the tech climbs, sure I've seen 1x'ers do it, but I've never seen one do it happy.
  • + 2
 I thought it was the bibs, then the jersey, then the leg warmers - Olivia Newton John style!
  • + 6
 Jesus. It's not even "pick a wheelsize and be a dick about it" anymore.. Now it's "pick a chainring quantity and be a dick about it". Ffs.
  • + 3
 I agree that no matter the 1x setup you'll always be giving up range to a 2x or 3x setup. Whether that range is necessary or not is up for debate and obviously depends on what type of riding you do etc.

The front derailleur hate is unfounded in my opinion. Sure I've ridden crappy FD setups that grinded and missed etc. But I have the current (now old) Shimano 2x stuff and have never had a problem. It shifts quickly and precisely. It's cheaper than 1x, not much heavier, and has better range. For me it still makes more sense. I like the direction 1x is heading, but for me I'm too frugal. I might try a 1x10 setup with a standard cassette, but I don't see the point in adding weight and expense to the rear cassette just to avoid using a front derailleur when mine works just fine...
  • + 4
 @bronco5 that's exactly what I'm saying. If 2x shit actually works reliably why the hell wouldn't you want it? The fact is that 2x is never going away completely. Road riders will want it (road bikes will never go 1x), commuters will want it, xc marathon riders will want it.... not to mention out of shape people who live near big hills/mountains. I'm just happy we have front shifting that's solid now. My hardtail has direct mount SRAM x7 2x and it's bomber. 1x is nice and I use it on one of my bikes, but it's not a solution that works for everyone, possibly not even the majority of riders. Again, just go take a look over at mtbr and you'll see what I'm talking about. The mtb world is much bigger than pinkbike.
  • + 1
 People talk bulsh...t really. Its always all about Your power in Your legs, not about 10t or 11t.
  • + 1
 I've already ordered mine on CRC, hopefully the cassette/shifter/derailleur are available sooner than August!
  • + 3
 I want 13 speeds.
  • + 1
 Are the weights of the components available yet?
  • + 1
 Weights would be good to know.

The XTR 11-40T weighs 331g. Going from previous XT versions, they usually weigh about 20% more due to the alloy spider (compared to CFRP on the XTR). Therefore it should be something like 390-400g. That is the biggest issue to me- the fact that the new XT cassette will be weighing the same as an old Deore cassette. Wouldn't surpise me to see the total groupset weights going up a bit...
  • + 1
 Yeah. I don't like the unsprung weight of my current XT with 1-up, and the same thing is currently that's putting me off any budget 1*11 solution. Despite the crappy bolt pattern I'm actually more interested in the cranks. If they're lighter than current ones they'll be an incredible bargain.
  • + 1
 Is the BCD different from Xt to XTR?
  • + 1
 The new XT and XTR M8000 and M9000 cranks share the new BCD.
  • + 1
 I can't wait for my wolftooth to wear out so I can justify buying this.

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