From the Top: David Turner

Jul 13, 2017
by Richard Cunningham  



David Turner's life revolves around two wheels. Twenty-five years ago, Turner was racing both motorcycles and mountain bikes, when another guy with the same last name (Paul Turner) introduced suspension forks to the bicycle world. Dave Turner was one of the lucky few who were given those early prototypes for competition testing. It was an "ah-ha" moment for the young cross-country racer, who knew that the instant popularity of suspension forks would inevitably lead to full-suspension mountain bikes. Dave immediately set out to learn as much as he could about rear suspension, and how it might be adapted to suit the needs of finicky mountain bike riders.

Turner was lucky to fall in with the sharpest suspension designer of the moment and shortly afterwards, founded his namesake bicycle company and went into business with a revolutionary aluminum dual-suspension XC trail bike design that would remain "best in class" for many years. David Turner's career as a bike maker and designer spans the entire timeline of the dual-suspension revolution. Only a few among us can make that claim, so it was an honor to sit down with the man and swap stories about the tech side of the sport, past, and present.




How long have you been making mountain bikes?

The first bike I designed was 1992. When Pinkbike visited, you saw a red painted steel bike prototype that had a strut style shock bolted behind the seat tube. That design never saw production and was built in 1992.

How did you get started?

I had been working for AMP Research after quitting racer life and was not really getting along with the boss. As a former mountain bike racer, I was not really used to working with others and working for a boss who did not share my opinions on what a bike should ride like was not good for my future. So, after another heated discussion, down the road I went.
Dave Turner s First Prototype
Turner made his first prototype in 1992. It was not put into production, in favor of his rocker-link design, which remains the predominant rear suspension to this day. - David Turner photo

What was your inspiration?

I was a racer first, and there I experienced the suspension revolution first hand, starting with RockShox and Manitou showing up at events with prototypes. Several of us were racing and testing those early forks. I knew that rear suspension must surely follow and as one of the first front-suspension racers/test riders I could
imagine what was possible if rear suspension could be added to the mountain bike. I kept thinking about rear suspension and how it could be done.

In the winter, I was racing District 37 hare and hounds on my YZ250 when I noted that the ATK brand had notably better suspension than all the other [motorcycles] I was passing, so I checked out the rear suspension, which was very different than anything at the time or since, and realized I should talk to the owner of the company about bicycle suspension. In talking with Horst Leitner, the engineer of the ATK, he shared an idea of a pivot location that would create enough anti-squat so that the bicycle would bob less while pedaling but still remain active under hard pedaling and brake loads.

The ATK manufacturing crew
Horst Leitner (far left) and the ATK crew. Similar to present DH designs, The ATK used guide rollers to keep chain tension from acting upon the suspension. – AMP research image

Tell us about your first design.

The first production bike had a massive, 70 millimeters of rear-wheel travel and geometry that was not a whole lot different than the cross-country bikes of the era. What set it apart from the AMP bikes, was that I had pushed the anti-squat characteristics further than Horst, as I was very much still pedaling in anger and wanted a tighter feel under power. The whole structure of the bike was designed to resist flex as well, with big pivot shafts, good bushing overlap, square tubes in the rear end for lateral control, and compared to so many frames at the time, the main frame tubes were bigger. I will be the first to admit that, compared to current bikes, the early Burner was by no means stiff, but, at the time there were so so many hunks of junk that I think my bike stood out.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.
The Burner, with its Horst-Link type suspension was Turner's first production model. It became a blueprint for many successors in the budding mountain bike industry.

What was the landscape like when you founded Turner Bikes?

It was still the frontier of a new sport and business segment. It seemed that there was a massive number of mtb business’ that were selling everything from tiny, anodized alloy bolts to linkage forks. Imaginations were running wild and the excitement of a new sport, as well as the possibility of breaking into a new business, created a rush of people and ideas. Companies were popping up right and left and many were creating product that was in many cases were truly the first in modern history.

What were your largest challenges during those early times?

The production. Getting the money to pay for the materials, labor, and services required to build a batch of frames—taking the product from the design phase and through to production.

Unlike most early frame makers, you contracted out your designs from the beginning. How did you come to that decision?

I was not skilled enough at fabrication to align with my vision of the best bike. I wanted to sell a bike with workmanship that was far greater than my proto level scabbing could create, and I really wanted my frames to be awesome, not just stick the tubes together as so many welders could. I designed really cool machined parts and had a machine shop make those parts, and I had really skilled welders put the frames together. I sought out the specialists for each of the steps and parts to get what I thought at the time, was the best product.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.
Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Do you believe that bicycle manufacturing will ever return to the USA?

I wish a lot of manufacturing would come back, not just bicycles, but more of the big-volume products most citizens use. It is hard to believe it will happen, with so many of us concerned with instant gratification and spending vast amounts of time seeking out the lowest possible price in any given product segment. One problem is that, with the low cost of imports, over the last few decades we have grown accustomed to getting a tremendous amount of perceived cool or volume for our money. Overcoming this will be a massive challenge, getting the wants of the buyer aligned with a retail price closer to current import pricing.

I think that the only way to compete with offshore labor costs is with new technology. Our labor will always be higher, so we have to engineer machines and cutting edge technology and processes to be competitive. When I use the word "manufacturing," I am seeing factories building thousands of bikes a month. This would make a dent in the number of imports. We do have some well run, high-volume fab shops in the USA with incredible quality and great people, but these are not factories and they are not going to make a dent in our yearly bicycle imports. If riders would start supporting them more, we could start making progress toward higher volumes.

It seemed like the larger, established brands fell behind the dual-suspension development curve for a sizable portion of those early years. What is your take on that?

The big companies employ smart managers. Why knock yourself out with new designs and updates and tooling every few months (or even every year) when the little guys are doing it for you? Things were changing so fast in the early era of mountain bikes and then again, during the full suspension phase, that I think it was better for them to take a conservative approach to development. I believe some companies let the smaller brands feel out the market direction and then they would follow. With the massive dealer networks the larger companies had, it’s not like they weren’t selling bikes, they just weren’t selling the cutting edge or the best bikes.
Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.
The prototype RFX. Turner abandoned the Horst-Link suspension system that he founded his brand with to avoid being harassed by patent holders. His choice to go with Dave Weagle's DW-Link would prove to be the better decision.

When the 29er took root, it seems like it spurred a decade of rampant development, including the component industry’s new-standard-every-week club. How did that affect smaller builders like Turner Bikes?

We have seen some of the big companies go from moderately misguided and largely crap advancements in the early days, to creating smoke where there was no fire. Most of the big companies are now creating micro changes, some proprietary, some as new "standards." all for nominal performance gains, but with maximal marketing opportunities. The managers now realize that in order to create big marketing opportunities, you have to have something to feed the public from one year to the next.

I think it is actually cost effective at their massive size to just drag and drop a few millimeters here or there, order up some new bits from the parts and accessory companies, then spend the next 18 months telling everyone their new bike is insane and to get a new one or your next ride will suck. And that is hard on all the smaller companies, as we do not have the economies of scale to effectively amortize as many tooling changes. Don’t get me wrong, today's bikes are the best ever, but many of those changes have done nothing to actually improve our ride, and have been created primarily for a marketing opportunity or cost savings - to the great pain in the ass, not only for me, but for the hundreds of thousands of riders trying to keep their bikes working for a reasonable amount of time.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.
Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Do you foresee a point where there will be no standardization at all, when larger bike makers build bikes to their own specs (like the automotive industry does), when beyond tires and some cockpit items, there will be no crossover components between brands?

You mean like the original Schwinn? Honestly, I am surprised that we have not seen a much more massive application of proprietary dimensions and designs from the companies that in a hundred different ways, already make everything but the drivetrain, brakes and dampers. I think it will be a fantastic way to make sure customers keep returning to their brands’ shops, as they will be the only place with the special service tools, factory training (and of course, proprietary parts) to keep that sucker working. As higher-end sales transition to increasingly complicated motor bikes over the next several years, this will be that much easier. It's not like you can pull a Honda motor today and drop it into a Yamaha, or a Nissan parts into a Toyota, right? Why should one be able to drop a Bosch motor into a chassis originally designed around a Brose?

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

Carbon fiber threatened to be the barrier wall between well-moneyed large brands that could ante up for the technology, and smaller brands that were relegated to less-expensive aluminum production. Apparently, that did not transpire.

Just my guess, but I think the number of full carbon bikes from niche brands on the trails is higher than most of the large brands. I am constantly watching the brands/models of the bikes wherever I ride, and the higher-cost builds seem to favor the smaller brands. None of the big brands are making anything better than most of the smaller companies' products. Different? Sure. Overpriced? Absolutely! [It makes no sense] when the economies of scale are taken into consideration. Looking at spec sheets, the smaller brands are usually a better buy as well. That might be one of the reasons they are popular with the more experienced riders who can wade thru the downgraded hidden parts specs of high-volume producers.

Once mountain bikers start looking at higher performance options, the smaller brands make their short list. So in most cases, a rider can get class-leading performance and something unique when they buy a bike from a niche brand - and have something not associated with entry level bikes from the big companies. Think about it: From $1600 to $6000, many of the big companies bikes are made to look similar. But, when one shows up to the trail head with a really nice bike from one of the several small brands, there is no way it will be confused with a big brand's low-price option, made to look like their team bikes.

The Flux side view
The Flux Carbon. - David Turner photo

Today, if you asked where dual-suspension trail bikes came from, most everyone would claim that they evolved from downhill designs, but that wasn’t the case was it?

No, it has always been about trail bikes. Yes, the bikes we ride today are partly influenced by features of a DH bike - most notably the bar and stems, but if trail bikes truly descended from DH bikes, we would not even bother to ride them up. Fact is, most bikes today are still in the pedal-bike lineage, morphing along as trail design and riders' interaction with the terrain changes.

You are one of the better riders I know, but none of us can hang with a National level or World Cup DH racer. How did you make the transition from making trail bikes, to building well-regarded downhill designs?

When I was designing the DHR, my thinking wasn’t only World Cup level, but building the best bike I could for most downhill racers. I got as much info as I could from the highest level athletes I knew or sponsored, of course. But in the end, I knew that most of the DHRs would be [customer owned], as we never had the money to buy our way onto a high-level team. So, I really wanted to make a great bike for the weekend warrior.

I think it can be also be attributed to my ability to interpret the desires of racers and transfer those to a bike design. To better understand their world, I walked every National downhill course on race day, at every venue in North America - watching how bikes worked and how different level riders rode helped put me "in their game" when getting the post-race feedback from athletes. For a couple seasons, I also raced age-class expert for fun and total immersion. I learned a lot standing in lift lines and start paddocks!

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.
Two DHR downhill frames on Turner's wall of fame. The original single-pivot-swingarm version (right), beside the most-recent, DW-Link chassis.

Interest in downhill bikes seemed to gain strength during the freeride movement and then spike as gravity parks opened worldwide. Now, the focus seems to have shifted to venues like the Rampage, FEST, and World Cup DH. How relevant are downhill bikes to the sport at large?

They are just as relevant as F1 or NASCAR to the cars we all drive. In other words: "minor." The World Cup, Rampage, CrankWorx, etc, are not about building bikes for participants, but creating "advertainment" materials. So, from a business standpoint, DH bikes are very relevant. By hiring World Cup level riders, companies hope to impress upon the viewing audience that their bikes are great, but the truth is, riders at that level can race frozen dog shit and kick ass, and many do! It’s all about marketing. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

How, if at all, does the long travel enduro bike play into that equation?

Very different. The enduro bike is just a more comfortable, capable and ultimately enjoyable way for most of us to ride a bicycle in the dirt, and that is who most of us are - mountain bikers.

Turner RFX v4.0 Enduro review 2016
RFX v4.0 was the first design from Turner tailored for enduro racing.

Is there a difference between an enduro bike and a long-travel trail bike?

It might be splitting hairs, but yes, errr, no, uh, maybe. At this time, enduro is generally associated with racing. Therefore, an enduro bike should be properly outfitted to race. Tires and rims are the biggest difference between someone pedaling against the clock, and one having a fun day with your buds. After that, all these bikes are shopped for and built with the individual rider's opinion of the optimal blend of up and downhill performance, based on their own budget, fitness, terrain and of course, trends. Kinda like the different ways to say "car." So many words describe what is basically, the same kind of vehicle. I don’t own an enduro bike, I have a 160-millimeter-travel trail bike. Haha!

Theoretically, if there were no negative effects on the bike’s pedaling performance, would there be a limit where suspension travel would become detrimental to a good performing trail bike?

Yes, I think so, that’s weight. As long as we are talking performance bicycles, weight is always going to be a factor. Adding a bunch of travel will end up making the weight higher, and that will always affect someone pedaling up a hill. The longer the travel the heavier everything will need to be. More travel ultimately means more downhill speed, so heavier frame and fork for sure, but especially rims and tires. Longer fork travel means more fork leg length, so we would need bigger diameter, thicker legs. So instead of the svelte 28 to 30-pound bikes we have access to today, we would end up well over 30 pounds, and no matter how efficient the linkage or suspension is, heavier is still harder to move uphill. Budget builds would skyrocket that weight to back-breaking numbers.

Without belaboring the wheel-size debate, what did you learn most from building mountain bikes with all three current diameters?

That there is no perfect size wheel for everyone, and that somewhere along the way the tire and rim makers should have gone to a "bead-seat diameter" based labeling system instead of the stupid system we have. For example: calling a bike 27.5 or sixfiftybee. That wheel size could really have an effective diameter range of less than 27 inches up to 28.5 inches with the same BSD.

What improvements do you think are most critical to the mountain bike at present?

Brakes. Of all the leaps the mountain bike has gone through since the days you wielded a torch, I say disc brakes. Second, would be tires. Modern tires are sooo much better than back in the old days.

If you had to build the one bike that you would have to ride for the rest of your life, what would it be like?

The short answer is: not electric powered. A fully rigid titanium single speed, with 27.5 x 2.6 wheels—massively long top tube, 770mm wide bar, and a quiet hub. Nothing to do on it but change tires and grips and head into the dirt.

You have been along for the ride, almost from the inception of the mountain bike, and certainly through its most important development stages. In your experience, what is most promising about our sport, and what do you regret most?

Promising? That our insatiable appetites will continue to push virtually every part of the sport and bikes. For little or for great, for better or for worse, the sport will keep changing. Seeing those changes, for a bike addict, is constant entertainment.

Regret? That I did not buy stock in Amazon….

Turner Bikes shooting for Pinkbike 2017 From the Top with RC.

This is not an easy career choice. Looking back, what motivated you most to make mountain bikes and what drives you to continue today?

First, I really knew I could do a better bike than what was available. There was so much crap on the market in the early ‘90s, and I had this clarity of vision that I could design a great bike. I think that’s what it takes to go into business for oneself—a belief so strong that one will go to unreasonable lengths and sacrifices to compete. I am a bike geek, first and foremost, so being in the business is the pinnacle of bicycle immersion. I would rather ride a bike than any other past time. I would do it wearing Lycra or baggies, flats or clips, with or without a shifter or a helmet—it’s all good. The act of pedaling is still the coolest thing—step on pedals and go places.

Must Read This Week

199 Comments

  • + 192
 One of the few guys that, IMO, never sold out.
  • + 44
 DT the straightshooter. Telling it like it is. Proud to ride your bikes
  • + 19
 He also takes good care of his customers. You call Turner bikes, and chances are you'll wind up speaking with him, and he'll get you what you need. He's also a good dude to bullshit with, has some great stories.
  • + 8
 @McNubbin: This is true. I sent an email to the generic info email address asking about shock suggestions and ended up having an exchange with him personally.
  • + 81
 I wish there were more guys like that steering the bike business.
  • + 4
 It doesn't matter if it's bike, car or nutrition business - if you are a small company you can say what you like, if you are big, you have to play the game of appearances. It is as natural as Earth orbiting the Sun
  • - 6
flag gdnorm (Jul 14, 2017 at 7:52) (Below Threshold)
 Except the whole industry would collapse. "A fully rigid titanium single speed, with 27.5 x 2.6 wheels—massively long top tube, 770mm wide bar, and a quiet hub. Nothing to do on it but change tires and grips and head into the dirt." Great for tire and grip companies, not great for selling/development of new products year in year out. Market competition, with heaps of dumb or great ideas and standards then selling these over priced products to those who will buy is what allows the industry to fund itself. 'Keeping it real' is what killed snowboarding's market share. Bros who just wanna ride can't support an superfluous industry.
  • + 1
 @gdnorm: there's still more money in snowboard industry than in biking. If you are a photographer the ski/snowboard always gives better jobs
  • + 1
 @gdnorm: its still good that some companies take this kind of approach though
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: no doubt as ski resorts are packed, but even more reason to have to stay up with the current industry model. Razor thin margins and tons of competition equal death to 'live simply' business models. The down votes I got from core bros is hilarious. Welcome to reality and why you aren't riding elastomer suspension. Because people who have more money than sense you can spend it frivolously year in year out to keep the industry alive.
  • + 71
 The biggest thing I took from this article is " I would do it wearing Lycra or baggies, flats or clips, with or without a shifter or a helmet—it’s all good. The act of pedaling is still the coolest thing—step on pedals and go places."

Just ride the bike you have and enjoy it.
  • - 6
flag RedBurn (Jul 13, 2017 at 9:43) (Below Threshold)
 agreed, except for the helmet. It should be mandatory everywhere (city - bmx - mtb)
  • - 8
flag WAKIdesigns (Jul 13, 2017 at 11:16) (Below Threshold)
 @RedBurn: and with MIPS.
  • - 5
flag RedBurn (Jul 13, 2017 at 14:56) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: yes i forgot, of course ! Safety first
  • + 61
 I wish all dog shit was frozen
  • - 1
 Yeah, you're not alone. Even pro level DH racers won't kick ass riding wet dog shit. Time to reverse global warming, and then some.
  • + 4
 @vinay: what we need is a good old-fashioned nuclear winter.
  • + 1
 @alexhyland: and some Catholic guilt
  • + 1
 In winter, dog shit warms your hands.
  • + 40
 Great to see someone call out the big boys on BS standards, the only way for us as consumers to avoid the roll out of more of these new non-standard standards and the progression further to a point where it is not possible to upgrade without changing your entire bike or getting suckered into brand only maintenance from the big boys is to no buy into the BS. This is where we need the reviewers and media to get a bit down and dirty and properly evaluate the "benefits" of these new standards.
  • + 15
 Cough***Cock block***knock block***cough****boost vs flange to hub center symetry****plus tires****?

Sorry I had a lot of phlegm in my throat.....
  • + 4
 A few influential people serving their self interest ruins it for everyone else. Same old story, be it bicycles or politics.
  • - 6
flag WAKIdesigns (Jul 13, 2017 at 11:21) (Below Threshold)
 @RustyMac - take a chill pill. If Trek and Sram want to bring Boost 152 they just will. They will not ask anyone they will not give a tiniest fk about what Dave Turner or Cesar Rojo or Richard Cunnyngham have to say. Whether you and a couple of opinionated guys on internet will buy their bike or not. They piss on your money because they can. They will just do it and earn money on someone else
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: Hey, maybe Trek and actually design a bike with good kinematics instead of putting out gimmicks and trying to sell me a $10k single pivot bike.
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: They don't piss my money because I'm not a new bike each year kinda guy, family has put pay to that.
New "standards" that offer no real benefits to riders however cost a significant amount of money to buy into really do boil my piss.
  • + 1
 @RustyMac: boil my piss, haha love it
  • + 33
 Bought my first Turner in 2002, and old school RFX. Rode that frame for 12 years without issue, and without being outdated or outclassed. Over that time I watched many companies release frames with misaligned pivots & crooked frames, poor quality, or worse, then fight with their customers over corrections and warranties. I own two Turners now. People use the term 'fanboy' like it's an insult. DT runs his business in a way that creates that loyalty.
  • + 8
 Spent 10 minutes on the phone with him 2 days ago.
I've owned:
2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2009 DHR's
Currently own:
2012 DW-LINK FOR
2006 5 Pack

I'm only on my 3rd set of bidding for the 5 Pack since owning it.

SAPA (the frame makers at the time) ruined the rep of the 2012 DHR by making the head tubes horribly wrong. The bikes were pre sold out of this world and they screwed them up so bad every one had to be recalled. Luckily i got my hand on a re worked one. It's perfect.

Oh...I personally got to test out that frame on the left or one of its prototype brothers. Stoked to see it and have the memories come rushing back.

Anyway...if you want to order "Direct to Consumer", Turner is the only way to go.
  • + 4
 @bizutch: I worked for Sapa from 04-05 and ended up buying and building a DHR I had welded. I later rode a high line for an it and I'm looking into building an rfx
  • + 1
 @bizutch: I knew you would be in here.
  • + 2
 @bizutch: he sounds like a cool dude, bet he has all sorts of gems and tips about bike setups
  • + 1
 @scotttherider: Really. So what exactly is the reason for what happened with the head tubes on that first batch. How did SAPA go from producing every single DHR and as far as i know, never having a head tube failure, to then pumping out their most highly anticipated Turner to date and (and as i was told, so it's third hand info) the first 100 DHR's off the line cracking the head tube the first ride. What went down for something so polar opposite to occur? Never understood.
  • + 1
 @scotttherider: Also, it's been a while, but for some reason I remember someone trying to come in (maybe former SAPA employees) and trying to somehow fill the void building US bikes in the same town or facility for some of the same bike companies?
  • + 1
 @bizutch: I left in 06 shortly after we started welding out the third iterations of the DHR with the round tubes instead of the square tubes that still had the link driven single point design. I was there when our guy that was over quality and shipping broke off and took some of our better help. I left solely because of false promises on advancement and compensation. SAPA had great employees but was not great to their employees. It was a good learning experience and great stepping stone.
  • + 2
 I am a proud Turner "fanboy" also.
  • + 35
 Correction to a long time popular PB comment...should be : "looks like a Turner".
  • + 22
 I never understood wearing a stocking cap other in the middle of the winter. Hes in So Cal so its probably pretty hot.. People do it and i dont know why.
  • + 25
 Us Canadians are confused by this too.
  • + 8
 I think you have to be from So Cal to understand this. In all fairness it can be pretty cold in mornings in the winter.
  • + 3
 It's cold as fokk in that warehouse and DT is bald. Maybe... heh
  • + 5
 Yes, this was all the rage a few years back. It used to drive me mad to see a guy walking down the street in the middle of July wearing a knit stocking cap. I don't see it as much anymore.
  • + 4
 It's a general biker thing-not just SoCal. My Daughter tells me it's to hide your 'helmet hair'. Big Grin
  • + 3
 I remember on a rugby trip once having someone in Kansas refer to my toque (or beanie) as a "stocking cap" though thought they were calling it a "stalking cap" and felt super curious about the criminal element in the field party I was at. It oddly made sense though as I could see someone stalking in one. Toques and beanies are like a nice hug for your head if your bald... of course I live in the mountains in BC so it's a bit different here than in SoCal but given the rationality of his interview I'm assuming if he's doing it than it works for him and he doesn't seem the type to suffer through a bad choice for the sake of fashion.
  • + 8
 Say toque, it isn't hard.
  • + 4
 "Stocking cap"! Oh my gawd that is the funniest thing I've ever heard. I guess it's similar to hearing a Brit call Levi's "denim trousers".
  • + 2
 Toque's on Don.
  • + 2
 @bishopsmike: Who's been calling them "denim trousers"? We call them "jeans" (sounds like "jeens", if this really isn't familiar thing in N. American).
  • + 2
 @TheR: lol, cuz the cute lol man buns wont fit!
  • + 1
 @bishopsmike: But thats what they are!!!
  • + 3
 “The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.”
  • + 1
 @StevenJohn: Yep - we can wear em all Summer. @#$@#$ the heat!
  • + 17
 I still have one of those original DHR frames. Even now it's a great thing to look at, with all the CNC billet parts and twin top tubes. It must have looked mad back when it was new.
  • + 8
 No. It looked awesome back then. Focking awesome was what it looked like.
  • + 5
 That bike and the M1 were the pinnacle of DH rigs in the late 90's early 2000's.
  • + 2
 @garrettstories: And Greg Wulff worked at both. Coincidence?
  • + 4
 I have a twin-tuber. too! in white....gotta fish that frame out and clean it up - it's work of art. I want to turn it into a parade bike, but need a fork long enough to compensate for one of the steepest head angles ever.
  • + 2
 @endlessblockades: go with a 27.5" fork up front and run your stantions all the way out.
  • + 1
 There's an idea but I don't want to drop real money- still looking for the 100$ Monster T @scotttherider:
  • + 1
 @endlessblockades: Super monster T....
  • + 16
 Proper Legend of the sport and a super cool down to earth dude.
  • + 9
 I love that DT's "forever" bike would be a titanium hardtail singlespeed. I have a full carbon 140 travel trail bike that is--by any objective measure-- my "best" bike, but the bike I most often pull down off the hook is my titanium singlespeed. I agree with Mr. Turner, the act of pedalling itself is the most important thing. Thanks PB for an excellent interview, and thanks DT for some thought-provoking answers
  • + 3
 funny, my riding circle it's the same thing: at the end of the day if we had one bike, it would be our singlespeeds...
  • + 8
 "But the truth is, riders at that level can race frozen dog shit and kick ass, and many do! It’s all about marketing. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday."

This made me kind of disenchanted with bicycle design. You always hope, or at least I do, that there's some sort of progress being made by perfecting say suspension linkage, or design, or materials, or bearings, or hubs, kind of like how automobile manufacturers say, "we've taken what we learned from Formula 1, and integrated it", but apparently they're probably all just talking out their ass.
  • + 2
 Nice bike! www.turnerbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2017-RFX-blk-turquoise-4500-1-1028x643.jpg Even that dual suspension from 1992 was way ahead of it's time.
  • - 6
flag vinay (Jul 13, 2017 at 2:03) (Below Threshold)
 I never got that F1 reference. I really can't watch road sports. And then when you watch the Tour de France, you're still looking at a nice scenery. F1 racing is on an isolated asphalt track without jumps and a gravel pit for a scenery. And then the technology. Currently there is a driver from my country (The Netherlands) competing. I don't really follow the racing but the only news reports I'm getting is him moaning about his car breaking down. His dad used to race too. What I do remember about him is that they illegally messed with the refueling equipment (to be able to refuel faster), spilled and set the car alight (he survived but couldn't finish the race). So that's F1 technology, stuff that with even that many technicians around doesn't even survive a couple of hours racing. I don't want any of that techology near my bike (or car). Sure aerospace technology, I don't mind having that trickle down into my gear. They want performance too but never skim on decent reliability and safety. F1 tech with reliability so low that you never get to know about the performance, GTFO.
  • + 15
 @vinay: I think the F1 reference was more geared along the lines of car companies don't make F1 cars to sell F1 cars- one of the main reasons they do it is to strengthen their brand image. Sure some technology trickles it's way down to commercial cars, but a big portion of F1 is to promote and sell the brand. This applies to downhill ski racing and downhill mountain biking the same. FIS ski racing isn't primarily done to sell FIS-level skis, but to promote the brand behind the skis. Same for downhill bike racing and downhill bikes.
  • + 4
 @ka-brap: whilst I do think that DH is largely the F1 of mtb, I don't think F1 cars is a good analogy for DH bikes. Most of us ride the bikes the WC DHers ride for a start!

@Kramz - the impression I got is he isn't into racing that much, all good, he can be into whatever. It doesn't surprise me considering he gets no business or benefit out of it since hes not in it. Business guys will always promote what supports them. So I wouldn't read too much into it, its just like his opinion man.

A final thought - if any trail bike descended as well as a dh bike, it would be super rad
  • - 4
flag newenglandrocks (Jul 13, 2017 at 4:31) (Below Threshold)
 In racing, it's about the rider, not the bike. If it was about the bike, all the men's DH WC qualifiers and finals would be dominated by 29ers.
  • + 4
 @vinay: many critical advancements in "consumer" automobiles have come from F1
  • + 5
 @russthedog: Obviously true that we can buy a DH bike but not an F1 car. But, most frames and components the World Cup uses are not exactly the commercial bikes available to us. While the commercial bikes we buy are totally inspired and based on the World Cup, there are often tweaks made (Sram Black Box, Fox RAD, lighter/thinner aluminums, special rocker links, carbon layups, etc.) that are not commercially available. Almost never is a commercial bike 1:1 what is used on the World Cup.

But the main point Turner was making is that downhill bikes are a very small fraction of a company's overall turnover. Companies participate in World Cup racing not to mainly sell downhill bikes but to promote and sell the brand. Selling downhill bikes is secondary, promoting the brand is primary.
  • + 1
 @ka-brap: There's an article on dirt mag worth a read, they're more stock than you.might think. Agree re reasons to participate for sure
  • + 4
 @DGWW: like what?

Audi won't put a single dollar into an F1 racing program because they feel that the technologies developed in F1 offer little to no benefit to their consumer cars. As @vinay mentioned, much of what is developed for an F1 race car is intended to last the short duration of a single race.

LMS racing on the other hand, is a whole different story.
  • + 2
 @russthedog: f1 may not be a good analogy for resorts or wherever you live aparently. But for the large majority of shops(which don't even stock a single dh bike) dh bikes might as well be f1. They don't stock them because it's such a small portion of the market, excluding very few select areas. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to live in dh bike candyland. But I live in wheelchair accessible dirt sidewalk IMBA land.
  • + 2
 @incubus: auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the-hood/trends-innovations/top-10-car-tech-from-racing.htm

www.popularmechanics.com/cars/technology/a24799/racing-innovations-real-engineering
Here a couple of websites that offer information on what has trickled down from racing to the everyday modern vehicle.
  • + 2
 @USMC: I'm not saying that motorsports (racing) doesn't result in trickle-down technology to road cars, I'm just saying that if you look at the different types of racing, F1 in particular contributes very little. This is especially true today as road cars inch closer to maximum fuel efficiency. Even from an aerodynamics perspective... how much can open wheeled F1 shapes help a typical five passenger vehicle? Whereas NASCAR at least uses bodies that somewhat mimic the shape of road cars.
LMS (think 24 hours of Le Mans) has a very high rate of trickle down tech, those cars need to be fuel efficient, need to be durable, need to be able to illuminate a roadway, etc.
  • + 2
 It does filter down. Look at just one example shimano xtr has features that filter down to the cheaper stuff. Or like in this article, the concept of full suspension started with pro level xc racing and now it's the norm.
  • + 2
 See I loved that quote, but I already have that same opinion.
  • + 1
 Materials Science is real, and that affects design, but yeah, 80% of it is just marketing bs.
  • + 1
 @WaterBear: Confirmation bias is real isn't it!
  • + 2
 @takeiteasyridehard: I live in Australia. There's probably three bike parks in the whole country. Its about 4000km wide. There's not many parks, so the likelihood of living in one is pretty much zero.

Most shops here will show off a flagship dh bike at least. I cam see if you.live somewhere completely flat itd be a waste of time. Still doesn't reduce their desire factor though
  • + 1
 @russthedog: there is nothing more stock than I might think. Thats the equivalent of saying that the TDF
Is more similar to my cycling commute than I might think.
  • + 1
 @incubus: The popular mechanics article is solely based on F1.
  • + 1
 @russthedog: I think that confirmation bias implies that I'm evaluating evidence. In this case I'm just sharing my cynicism with a more optimistic sort of commenter. Smile
  • + 1
 @russthedog: my bad. I misread your reply to @ka-brap where you said that there are many similarities between commercially available DH bikes and that of a sponsored pro's bike. While your reference to the dirt rag article should've clued me in to what you were referring to, when I replied, I was under the impression that you were comparing F1 cars to consumer cars.
  • + 11
 Nice to hear someone on the inside calling out the big companies bs! So tired of proprietary stuff I want to puke.
  • + 8
 a lot of people in industry have said this, it just gets drowned out by the larger companies and the media following along so they don't miss out on press trips to nice places.
  • + 9
 Great interview of a legend. Only issue I have is RC never asked Dave, "so what's next from Turner?" Been patiently waiting to see something new...
  • + 9
 Easily the best bike I have ever owned. The difference is insane, if you ever get to demo one.
  • + 5
 I love Dave's bikes. Haters gonna hate, because they can't relate. A craftsman building his designs is the ultimate expression of human development. Dave makes bikes to fill his own need. Not the market's trendy demand. Great article and great bike builder.
  • + 5
 Turner's just work. They are built to ride and last. On my third trailbike (Burner v2, Spot TNT, Burner v3), DHR, kid rides a Burner 3.1 and Wife a DW Spot. All reliable and great to ride, even for those of us that are not world class bike handlers.
  • + 5
 So much love for this brand. My first 'real' mountain bike was a 2006 Turner Sultan 29 with 100mm of Horst link rear travel. Then I got a 5 Spot which further blew my mind! I'd love to see Turner gain a bigger foothold in the market cause their bike's f***ing rock!
  • + 4
 Two problems with this:
1) the Sultan wasn't introduced until 2007
2) the Sultan never had a Horst link rear end. The initial '07/08 production was TNT (faux bar) and transitioned to DW-link in 2009.
Details aside, I share your love for the brand.
  • + 2
 @Inertiaman: Yeah I can see you do share the love for Turner and/or details. Apologies to the Turner historians out there..
  • + 6
 no one cares , please make another downhil bike with up to date wheel sizes ... i really mis my old bike and want too support your company again :/
  • + 4
 I rode for turner for a season when I first turned pro He hooked me up with a DHR and it's still one of my favourite bikes I have ever owned Plus the whole turner company is just world class I still talk to DT from time to time and catch up on stuff people really need to pay more attention to tuner bikes
  • + 3
 I ride a Burner v3. Knows the way home by itself. My old O2 and Flux have moved on but are still going strong and are still relevant. Nobody ever complained about a Turner and probably never will. I imagine it would be really hard to get these at your LBS and have both Turner and shop happy with the margins nowadays.
  • + 2
 I've got 4 Turners all being ridden by family. 2003 XCE ,2006 5 Spot,2013 5 Spot, 2015 Burner v.3. Awesome bikes that are worthy of component upgrades from year to year to keep up with the gearing changes. All are 1X big cassettes now. Turner customer service is amazing. I cannot tell you how many times I have phoned the shop and got Dave answering the phone and he will wax on just like this interview for an hour. Just because he is truly always stoked on MTB's and the business itself. I want to see that Ti hardtail with a Turner HT badge. Hopefully US made.
  • + 2
 @chasejj: +1 on the 'DT Dream Bike'. Maybe as a '30th Anniversary Special'? Smile
  • + 5
 Rode a turner all last week at the Whistler bike park--had such a good time! It was absolutely eating up the tech. Keep making good bikes!
  • + 3
 His point on pricing from big brands is absolutely accurate. It's what has created a window for companies like YT, Canyon, etc. in the North American market. Trek and Specialized have by far the largest brand reach, but they overprice the shit out of their bikes. Economies of scale are very real, especially with carbon frames where volume is key to pay off the costs of tooling. Rather than promoting proprietary suspension products and other features, the big boys will have to come to grips with realistic product margins in an industry where small companies are cranking out bikes that are as good or better.
  • + 2
 Are you asking the bike companies themselves to take the hit or the bike shops? Working/running a shop off/on for 10 years I can tell you that the shops have very low margins on the majority of products sold. Especially compared to other traditional retail industries
  • + 1
 @bman33: I worked in a shop at one point and was shocked by how low the margins are - I would never suggest that shops take the hit. I think the companies are the ones that need to get real and take the hit.

Example: A Trek Slash 29 frameset is $3700 on their website for the frame and shock. For being a massive brand that can crank out a lot of frames every year in volume, that's pretty outrageous. Meanwhile, smaller companies are coming in with frames that are MUCH cheaper, and still not selling direct.
  • + 2
 @bman33: But hey! Specialized needs to have free Espresso and Snacks in their museum. Someone's gotta pay!
That's why I won't get anymore carbon bikes. All Taiwan/China made and extremely limited and conservative on sizing. Which inihibits real innovations in geometry. Oh, and they don't really ride any better that I can tell and I've owned the best of them. Sold them all.
Aluminum/Steel/Ti can still be made here in small batches by artisans in the US. Think about it.
Turner has moved production overseas not because he wanted to or for more money, but to simply survive in this marketplace.
I truly hope they can somehow figure out bringing at least some models back to US production.
  • + 1
 To me shops have two problems. The first is an unwillingness to give up on unprofitable high end bikes (they are great at entry level and getting people into the sport) and consumers unwilling to pay for expertise. It is far more efficient for consumers to buy bikes direct from manufactures, but they nead to learn (and shops need to reinforce) that it is okay to go to an LBS and pay for setup and repairs. That experience and knowledge has value. I am no different than the next guy, I mail order and save where I can, but when I need a part in a hurry, I gladly pay my LBS retail for the convience and speed.
  • + 1
 @bman33: Just out of curiosity, have bike shops considered organizing in some way? If you want to twist the arm of your suppliers you're going to need numbers, I figure. Something like IMBA, only an alliance of stores with collective bargaining power.
  • + 1
 @WaterBear: Not sure about that. I'm sure many corporate stores have volume discounts
  • + 3
 hah love this. Put up a Turner interview and there is damn near universal praise and genuine love for the brand. Put up an Ellesworth and note the difference. Its nice that the PB forum sees the difference between genuine bike people and business people. We could do with more Turners and less BS.
  • + 3
 David is one of the best guys in the industry. He's also the best rider of anyone who owns a bike company, that's why his bikes are so dialed. Buying his bikes doesn't support marketing, advertising, or trends, just David developing really good bikes. And his wife crushing it. Hard. Ive been seeing all of these new school cross country bikes out and they're only about 4 years behind the Czar, which is still the best of that crop. Mine is aging and the only thing I've ridden that I would replace it with is another Czar. Climbs like a scalded cat, and descends like a bike with way more travel. I routinely crush my buddies on enduro bikes with it on techy downhills. The new RFX bucks a few trends but is more fun in most places for most riders because of that. Really fun when it gets tight and flicky and chunky. That's the one I take to Moab. Once it cools off a bit.
  • + 3
 David Turner may now be my favorite person in the bicycle industry, and I threw my lot in with the Canfield bros.

There are a few guys that ride Turners around here (one whose been riding Turners for over a decade). They have a very good reputation over all.
  • + 3
 I bought my first Turner, a 2000 RFX in late 1999. I still have the bike, and in fact, rode it last night. I have upgraded it through the years, and it still works flawlessly. I turned many people on to the bikes as well, including Aquaholic, who became a bit of a defacto test rider for Dave for many years until he went back to jetskiing. At one point, I had four Turners, a 2006 Flux, then a 2007 Five Spot that I built up for my son when he was 12. I still have a 14.5" Burner that I loaned to a friend for his son to ride. All great bikes.

The RFX has been transformed into a 26"+ bike, with 40mm wide rims, and 2.8" tires. It's great for when I take kitesurfing trips to Baja, to ride around the loamy trails, and get me to and from the launch point. I always had great customer service from Dave.

I remember when I ordered the RFX, I was talking to Dave on the phone. He asked me what trails I was going to be riding, and I was debating to go with rim brakes or disc brakes, which was still a question at that time. When I mentioned Telonix, he replied "You need to put disc brakes on that bike, or you're going to be blasting down Telonix so fast, you'll end up on Laguna Canyon Road without them". I'll never forget that comment. I of course went with the discs, and never looked back.

Take a look at my photos if you want to look at some of these iconic bikes.
  • + 3
 The dude is a legend... I'll probably get hated for the idea but he should sell out like Gary Fisher and go design bikes for one of the big brands. Times are changing and in order to compete in this marking driven industry DEEP pockets are needed. If your reading this Dave please go start designing bikes for one of the big guys, get a fat salary, ins benefits and a sweet 401k!! I would love to buy a modern day Turner... even if it's made in a big brand factory.
  • + 3
 Totally different psychology. If you could spend your life just messing around with bikes wouldn't you want to? There are people like Dave, Tom Teesdale, 'Frank the Welder', etc. who do quite nicely as independents, with a type of freedom they'd never have inside the Giant/Speck machine.
  • - 1
 @scottmartin49: you can't play around with things forever and expect to keep paying the bills... unfortunately life expenses get in the way and having a nice retirement nest egg makes the later years of life much sweeter.

The idea is save enough money so you can just f*ck around and have fun when you get older. Not saying this is the only way but it's the plan that lets you sleep good at night for most!
  • + 0
 what are you on about? you're @loaded...
  • + 0
 @noisette: "loaded" as in not sober!
  • + 3
 Great read from a top fella / company - I've an 06 DHR, the swingarm has a hairline fracture and the paint is pretty battered now, but it's still such a grin inducing blast to ride that I can't bare to switch the frame out - which probably pretty much sums up how a great bike should make you feel!
  • + 7
 Thumbs up to Dave and PB for the very good interview/article. Thanks.
  • + 5
 Been riding Turner's since the mid 90's, I wont ride anything else, I currently own 3, would love to see a new DHR,,, Hint hint
  • + 3
 He's not listening. I keep saying the same thing
  • + 2
 @bizutch: he should be, considering the real reason the company did so well was that we all drooled over the DHR, then bought a trail bike.
  • + 1
 @atrokz: dropped into the Turner warehouse a couple weeks ago and asked DT about a new DH bike. Not happening. Too expensive to make at his standards. He did say if he ever made another DH bike, it'll be single speed, something cheaper and more affordable.
  • + 1
 @DrunKidCatholic: I find that pretty surprising considering how much was put into the DHR revisions, esp the DW one, and the lineage and history the brand has w downhill racing.
  • + 4
 My DW-DHR will never quit... I fukking love it.
  • + 2
 @atrokz: I know. It's the corvette theory of sales. No one can buy a corvette, butt they aspire to it. So they buy a Chevy. You dont really make on the corvette, you make money because of it.
  • + 1
 @trumbullhucker55: wow. Haven't seen you on a forum in forever
  • + 2
 @bizutch: exactly. There's a strong argument for having a DH bike even as a marketing tool.
  • + 8
 Turners are CLASSIC
  • + 5
 Thanks for this RC/Colin. DT, you're the man! I doubt I'll ever part with my v3.1 Burner - killer looks, stout design, and handles awesome!
  • + 4
 Had an 08 DHR, and easily the best bike I have owned. It was just indestructible!! Would love to see a new DHR, pleeeeease Dave, make one!!!
  • + 6
 So many signs from the universe that I should buy a new RFX.
  • + 3
 The orange DW-linked DHR is NOT the production (and the last current) frame... I think it was the prototype before they drew up the final production frame. UNLESS that's a new 29er DHR coming out... lol!
  • + 4
 Yup. Proto. Good to keep one for a week and rip around on One of them. It was heavy and overbuilt for testing If you could look up close and compare to stock, the rear swingarm is burlier than stock and the linkage is thick, blocky and far from.production. I loved it though.
  • + 2
 My first real mountain bike was a anodised gold Turner Nitrous just like the one hanging on his wall. 10 bikes later and I'm ditching my full suspension carbon Scott spark and putting the finishing touches to a Turner 5 spot I rescued.
  • + 2
 Another happy 2001 RFX owner here. Spent my first proper job pay cheque on that thing, it's the most expensive bike related purchase I ever made (£1950 for an aluminium frame) yet the most value-for money, ride it for 14 years until 2015.
I have to say that I'm confused by Dave's dream bike though, 'A fully rigid titanium single speed, with 27.5 x 2.6 wheels—massively long top tube, 770mm wide bar, and a quiet hub.' Both because he was one of the first to see the benefits of suspension, and also because his bikes have always gone with a shorter reach which is something that I prefer. Guess he's just riding different trails these days.
  • + 4
 Great article, thank you. I'd like to hear more of the 'back in the day' stories.
  • + 4
 Turner bikes rule! Dave is the man! Thanks for many great years of mtn riding bro.
  • + 2
 "A fully rigid titanium single speed, with 27.5 x 2.6 wheels—massively long top tube, 770mm wide bar, and a quiet hub."

So can Turner go ahead and make this bike? Sounds basically perfect.
  • + 2
 I harrased Dave about a hardtail at Sea Otter. I pointed out that even though he said no hardtails years ago, because the company is Turner Suspension Bicycles, he already did a cross bike. I still have my fingers crossed.
  • + 2
 Damn it, now I want a single speed titanium hardtail.
  • + 2
 @carym: and the CX bike is sweeeeeet!
  • + 1
 When I read that line the question instantly popped. What exactly is stopping him from making one, at least for himself only?
  • + 2
 "By hiring World Cup level riders, companies hope to impress upon the viewing audience that their bikes are great, but the truth is, riders at that level can race frozen dog shit and kick ass, and many do!" The truth!
  • + 1
 If you want to see what American mountain bike manufacturing can be (though it's currently on a small scale), check out Guerrilla Gravity. What a fantastic company and what great bikes. My Trail Pistol is amazing! The spec is competitive with many larger companies. The frame is sublime.
  • + 1
 Purchased one of the first Sultan's he produced and for the time it made a 29'er FS rideable. When he produced the DW Sultan in a great "Trail Bike" was born.

DT was a true innovator.

As far as 29'ers are concerned he is behind the times. The new breed of trail bikes are just outstanding and Turner isn't making one....sad
  • + 5
 I can't believe 1992 was 25 years ago already!
  • + 4
 I know right! I remember those days like it was yesterday.
  • + 2
 Must be something in the name "Turner", between both Paul and Dave we've got six frames and four forks!

BUT....none of that DW nonsense for me, thanks. Razz
  • + 4
 Don't forget Gary Turner (GT bikes)
  • + 1
 @gtill9000: Criminy, you're right! S'gotta be the name...
  • + 1
 I'm curious--what's the difference between enduro (racer) wheels & tires and weekend warrior wheels & tires? (For wheels, I imagine that's carbon vs alloy?)
  • + 1
 Probably those expensive carbon rims? But I'm puzzled too.
  • + 4
 I think Enduro racers need a beefier tire,double carcass or very reinforced and foam inserts to prevent a flat. Most people runs on regular 2.5/2.4 tires tubeless and alloy rims,lucky people run on fancy carbon rims. 1 flat while racing and your are done,go home and think for the next race. If I get a flat I look for a good place to rest a little bit while and repair it whit no worry at all.
  • + 1
 I think its a case of needing stronger rims & more protective tires for racing because the guys are going faster and hitting things harder, not to mention how a puncture can be detrimental to their race against the clock.
  • + 1
 I'd have thought the opposite to the commenters above. Racers will want to have to haul less weight around, admittedly not at a total sacrifice to durability, whereas your average weekend Joe park basher is probably going to want the shiny carbon rims to last as long as resonably possible despite the cased jumps and rocky line "choices" they inevitably put them through.
  • + 2
 I guess the weekend warrior just wants something that lasts and doesn't care about something that's marginally faster. Whereas the racer needs to go fast and is willing to invest in that and may even go as far as compromise some durability. So if a tire is worn in two weeks, that's good enough for the racers. But that's going to put off the regular rider.
  • + 2
 I love it when Pastor Dave preaches his sermons strewn with truth, prophecy, and retrospective clarity.
  • + 3
 I still compare new dh bikes to my 2005 dhr
  • + 4
 I had an 05 DHR and upgraded to a 13 DHR, significant imporvment over something i did not think could get any better, if only the 6-pack was lighter i would still have only turner bikes. These guys kick ass
  • + 2
 They should have worked in a mention of Gary Turner... Seemingly a common surname in our industry.
  • + 3
 You're the man Dave!!! Nothin' rides like a Turner
  • + 2
 DT is awesome. I wish I had hung on to my old 26" burner from '04. Lovely machine
  • + 2
 Am I the only Turner owner that felt let down when they shifted to carbon? The welds on my 5 spot we're perfect.
  • + 1
 I would still like a square tube dhr. Every once in a while i think about finding one to try some offset shock bushings and slacker headset cups...
  • + 4
 Shoulda bought a Turner.
  • + 1
 All I want to know is what happened to the beautiful 6-pack prototype from a few years back. Now that was a sexy piece of bike.
  • + 2
 Still riding my 2009 Turner 5-spot! Very capable still...
  • + 2
 Those bikes are real head Turners.
  • + 2
 My old square tube dhr was so good!
  • + 2
 Thanks for everything Dave
  • + 1
 Could build new rear ends for the DHR and make it new wheel size compatible.
  • + 2
 Which came first, the Torker logo or the Turner logo?
  • + 2
 Yo Dave -- I'll sell you some of my AMZN stock for a new RFX!! Deal?

Smile
  • + 1
 I always imagined Sam Hill riding and winning on a DW Link Turner DHR. Sunday?
  • + 1
 Soooo when do I get to purchase the new and improved DHR?
  • + 1
 Hi Dave! Blast from the past!
  • + 2
 bikes with machine soul
  • + 2
 OG
  • + 0
 Needs to invest in marketing. Its a must or he will only be around for a few more years.
  • + 2
 What you just read above, including the comments = brand marketing.
  • + 2
 Great bikes!
  • - 2
 Did Dave really imply that someone should purchase one of his bikes to improve their image and up their trailhead credibility?
  • - 1
 I was surprised to read his thoughts about people's images when they pull up to trailheads.
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