Good Ideas Executed Poorly - Opinion

Feb 15, 2018
by Mike Levy  
Mike Levy


What do Rapid Rise and Dual Control have in common? Yes, they're both from the same drivetrain giant, and they're both long dead, but that's not what I'm getting at here; I could also include pedals with their bearings in the crank arms, those old THE Eliminator rims, and even downhill racers wearing skin suits on this list. The answer is that all of those things either never caught on or earned nearly universal disdain when they were released to the always (understandably) cynical riding public. Oh, and they also share something else: each one either had or has merit and real reasons to exist, too. Yeah, even Dual Control.

Why did it go down like that? You might say that it's because another common trait is that they're also shitty ideas, but I'm going to argue that while none of them were executed all that well in hindsight, the concepts behind each were all very sound.

One of the main reasons that none of those things stuck around, I believe, is that their benefits were either not widely understood, never explained in an easy to grasp way, or straight-up ignored. They had some issues, no doubt about it, but each one also had logical reasons to stick around... yet they went the way of bar-ends and URTs.

There's a good chance that you don't believe me, which is fair, but let me make my case before the flaming pitchforks come out.

Skin suits for downhillers? This one is easy. Hello, their only goal should be to get from point A to point B ASAP, and the ol' sausage suit makes all the sense in the world. Even amateur ski racers slip on the spandex for the relatively slow-speed slalom events, unconcerned with how the world views them because they know that skin tight = fast because science and stuff. I wonder how often the average amateur downhill racer considers aerodynamics? I'm only one-third serious; I don't expect any downhiller to actually want to wear a skin suit, but it's one example of how we're just fine snubbing something regardless of its advantages.
Kamikaze Bike Games - 2015
Skin suits aren't ''cool,'' but there are good reasons for wearing one. Long Nguyen photo.

And we all know where pedal bearings belong, right? Certainly not in the pedals but rather the crankarms so they can be larger and more reliable, thereby allowing axles to be made larger and strong enough to withstand even the great Chris Glew case of Kranked 5. Even better, the axles could bugger off entirely if the bearings moved shop to the cranks. Variations have been made and tested, yet here we are with bearings from a freaking RC car - no joke - inside of our pedals. I believe that this is down to one of two things: either the crank and pedal people are ignoring it, or, kinda understandably, they're nervous to invest in a design that would call for a pretty noteworthy addition to the always crowded and widely derided ''new standard'' shark tank.

The concept makes way, way more sense than the crap we're using now, so one of you companies needs to man-up and get 'er done already.


photo
Thinner pedals and larger bearings... it just makes sense. Ashworth photo.



Skin suits make sense. Pedal bearings becoming crank bearings make sense. Rapid Rise and Dual Control... make sense? You betcha they do, but these two received a mostly frosty response all around when debuted, at least partly because their advantages were never explained well enough for most of us to look past the glaringly obvious disadvantages.

I know more about knitting sweaters out of cat hair than I do about marketing, but given the often bewildering approach that some companies take when debuting a new product, not even a numbskull like me needs a crystal ball to predict the angry mob that forms mere seconds after the news breaks. Worse yet, sometimes the product in the line of fire truly does makes a lot of sense but the message was lost in translation or, even more worse, coated in slime when that's actually the last thing it needed.

Let's look at Rapid Rise first, the derailleur that everyone hated back in the 90s when it was first debuted, and then got to hate again with renewed vigor when it showed up in Shimano's high-end drivetrains in the early 2000s.


Shimano XTR RD-M951 - GS medium cage - Rapid Rise rear derailleur low normal
Shimano XTR RD-M951 - GS medium cage - Rapid Rise rear derailleur low normal
Shimano's Rapid Rise derailleurs made sense mechanically, but asking people to reverse their burnt-in shifting method meant that it was never going to stick around long. C2winter Photo.


What's not to like about it? Well, it worked in reverse compared to everything else back then and still to this day; if you un-clamped the shift cable, the spring would force the derailleur up to the largest cog, which is the opposite of what the derailleur that's on your bike right now will do. The shift cable actually pulled it down to smaller cogs/higher gears which is, once again, the opposite of your derailleur. I understand the hate, I really do. If some all-seeing, all-knowing, omnipotent prankster decided that left is right and right is left, I'd be so f*cked given that it's taken me thirty-seven-years to learn that left is left and right is right. But back to shifting. Factor in steering and pedaling a bike, mud, rocks, roots, along with my newborn calf level of coordination, and there's a high probability that I'd lose my marbles over Rapid Rise if it forced was upon me tomorrow. The comment section would feel my all caps locked wrath, I tell you what.

But it's a damn good idea.

Shimano isn't stupid. Far from it, and, at least technically, Rapid Rise made loads of sense. Because the derailleur's spring wanted to pull it up to larger cogs/lower gears, shift action in this direction could be made smoother and with less effort, especially when asking for an easier gear under load on a steep climb like we're not supposed to do. That same spring could easily overcome your ratty, three-year-old contaminated shift housing, and the pulling of the cable to shift the opposite direction accomplished the same thing. Also, if your shift cable snapped, you'd be stuck in an easier gear rather than one that makes sense for land speed record attempt. Sign me up.

But you can't ask us to relearn how to shift, Shimano. You just can't. Aaaaaand they did exactly that, with predictable results. Rapid Rise, while making much more sense than David Icke's lizard people philosophy, probably had fewer riders who believed in it than people who believe that bipedal reptiles are currently running the world from beneath the Denver airport. Seriously. It also makes more sense than how our derailleurs work today, but a wholesale change in how we use our fingers was never going to fly with the riding public. The same goes for Dual Control, which was Shimano's idea to turn the brake lever into a dual-action shift lever. At the risk of being run off the line, this was also a really sound idea if you lean more towards fitness than flying through the air. And before you type out ''HAVE U USED THAT CRAP?!!!!' in the comment section, the answer is yes, a lot.


0 3x9 Shimano XTR ST-M960 Dual Control shifter set
When brake levers are also shift levers. Granted, these were never a good idea if you were doing much more than cross-country racing, but they were damn clever. Balfasoldier photo.


C'mon, Shimano, what'd you expect? I don't have a white belt in marketing, but even I know that there was little chance of Rapid Rise and (the complicated and expensive) Dual Control taking off, regardless of some advantages for certain styles of riding. In fact, it's probably one of the lesser reasons that SRAM got the foothold it did around this time - riders wanted a high-end drivetrain that operated how they were used to, and SRAM wisely chose to keep left as left and right as right.

So, the question is: where'd Shimano go wrong? The merits of both systems were steamrolled by hate, and therefore no one was about to re-learn how to operate their thumbs and pointer fingers in battle, understandably. Because change can be a real piss-off when it comes across as dogmatic and uncalled for, there shouldn't be any surprise to see how Rapid Rise's merits were quickly buried in hostility.


0 THE Eliminator Wheel Set
No flats, no pool noodle foam. THE's Eliminator rim was ahead of its time, but changing a tire could turn into a real war if you didn't have the technique down. Karlbr151 photo.

The most glaring example has to be that neato THE Eliminator rim that was released back in 2006. Designed by ex-racer Toby Henderson, the rim employed a raised PVC center section that kept the tire, rim, and tube (this was before tubeless was a thing) safe from being damaged. Sound familiar? Yeah, that's because Henderson's rim used the same principles that all those expensive foam tire inserts do today, but in a completely integrated package.

It wasn't a perfect system; getting a tire on or off the rim was a heinous task that could make you give up mountain biking altogether but, as the name suggests, they essentially eliminated the majority of flat tire issues.
photo
The Eliminator rim's raised rim bed protected the tire and tube against damage. The design worked very, very well.

Mr. Henderson was about a decade ahead of his time with that idea, but the promise of improved reliability and being able to run lighter weight tires and tubes clearly wasn't lost on everyone - now we're doing the same thing by stuffing over-priced pieces of pool noodles inside our tires. It makes me wonder how Toby's rim would have panned out had the idea stuck around long enough to be refined properly.

Skinsuits on downhill racers, bearing-less pedals, Rapid Rise, Dual Control, and THE Eliminator rims are all ideas that, at least technically, make sense. I'll happily concede that some or none of those might not make one iota of sense to you right now, but the idea behind each is sound. Regardless, they were let down because they were either poorly explained (by the brands or the media, including us) or simply weren't refined enough to stick around.

Can you think of any other examples of products that, while maybe not being ready for prime time out of the gate, should have stuck around longer than they did?

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456 Comments
  • 276 1
 UCI Downhill
  • 42 0
 Totally.
  • 16 16
 Which bit? The uci or the dh
  • 6 0
 top comment
  • 4 0
 This should be top comment Smile
  • 3 0
 Top comment of EVER!
  • 19 0
 Agreed. But can't we all stop complaining and instead figure out where to find one of those cat hair sweaters that Mike Levy is known for?
  • 3 0
 @sspiff: ‘I know more about knitting sweaters out of cat hair’
It’s an article I want to seee on pinkbike.
  • 23 0
 @sspiff @sspiff : I don't sell them. It's just a passion project.
  • 19 1
 Apologies in advance for jumping off topic - Please downvote me to oblivion with no offence taken... and for the record I also think DH would also benefit from an EWSesque format.

@mikelevy I think I see where you are going with this.... Currently you are riding a Zerode. The sexy carbon wunderbike with a 12 speed gearbox and outstanding rear suspension (due to the lack of unsprung weight). But there are two buts and they are biggies .... It has a twist shifter and you can't change down under load. You love the idea of the gearbox but can't stand the shifter and not being able to change down under load.

Hence it got you thinking, what other great inventions have died that actually made sense. I think deep down you love the idea of gearboxes but see them going the same way as Rapid Rise etc.
  • 1 1
 @mikelevy: deraillers kinda work and they're cheap. Sure there are maintenance issues but you still need to clean a chain on a gearbox unless you are using a Gates. The best way forward is a Millyard sealed drivetrain.... or someone invent something that makes cleaning sh!tty chains easy.
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy: sorry, this topic is probably for another day.
  • 3 0
 @fartymarty: Since when you could shift under load with any system? Well, technically you CAN, but should not, to avoid damaging anything. So essentially you have to back off the torque when shifting, right?
So the only valid point is the shifter, and it can't be so hard to desing a trigger where both paddles pull the cables, just in opposite directions?
  • 2 0
 @hirvi: with a cassettes you can power thru a shift altho your chain wont like it. Don't Effigear do a thumb shifter for their gearbox? The other alternative is electronic shifting which would be cool. I am sure there are solutions.
  • 1 0
 @hirvi: www.effigear.com/control plus they say you can shift under load.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: Designed and tried to patented a sealed mech in a box idea, but did not go though, because uni was studing and Shimano had same patent agent, but idea does work, but makes all gearing parts last to long?
  • 1 0
 @aljoburr: I really like the mech in a box idea. It's simple and works. I though Honda would have the patent on it?
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: Not really they did not seal the drive chain, so no
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: Only real problem with Honda design is less efficency from 2 stage drive design, but do that on standard drive works fine,
  • 81 14
 I think a current great idea being *marketed* poorly is Shimano Centerlock rotors. Of all the new standards, how has that one failed to eliminated to heinous 6 bolt system? I fear the day that it too, goes the way of Rapid Rise.
  • 75 7
 That's another good one, although I can't stand how Centerlock rotors rock on the hub splines. So annoying.
  • 33 3
 @mikelevy: Yeah, but once they are seated in place I forget all about it. Most brake pads rock around inside of the calipers to a greater degree anyway.
  • 30 5
 @ninjatarian: I've always had issues with them rocking back and forth, not just when you first pull the lever. I get annoyed by the pad rock as well, but I rarely feel that. I can feel that Centerlock movement a bunch of times each ride.
  • 9 1
 I'm sure there was a press release fairly recently from a wheel manufacturer saying they used 6 bolt as there are six bolts to fail rather than one as with centrelock. It seemed to miss the point that six bolt hold the rotor in place and take all the braking force.
  • 40 6
 @mikelevy: Blame the hub companies. Shimano hubs and rotors fit perfectly together, I've never seen rocking on them.
  • 41 8
 @DC1988:
The bolts are not in shear. The rotor to hub friction is what holds the rotor.
Water/plasma jets are the only thing you need to make 6 bolt rotors.
The addition of Broaching tooling/Machine for the Shimano Centerlock is cost prohibitive for most.

-Jon
  • 9 0
 @mnorris122: Yeah, I'm not 100% sure but I don't think I've had that issue with Shimano hubs.
  • 3 5
 @jlrotax583: Cost prohibitive for who?
  • 6 0
 Even considering the changes suggested here, I still think the centerlock-rock is an issue of execution. Slightly changing the interface of the rotors and the hubs (wider splines, closer to interference fit) could probably eliminate the rock.
  • 18 2
 @mikelevy: What hubs, what rotors? Using Shimano rotors on DT hubs I have never, ever encountered the much fabled rotor rock. I guess janky manufacturing tolerances are what's keeping it down, but if DT and Shimano can make it work you would think everyone else would figure it out sooner or later. Of course 6 bolt working just fine probably hurts it more, better but expensive tends to fail against cheap but good enough.
.
Disagree with you completely about dual control though. A system that integrated the shifters into the prone to crash damage brake levers, ties you into one brand for gears and brakes AND made you twist your wrist or finger in an awkward way to shift gears. I hated the second gen XT dual controls so much I went to Hope brakes. A case of trying to apply roadie tech to mountain bikes without thinking about who would actually want it or why.
  • 9 3
 @Fix-the-Spade: I know I've had rocking issues with DT Swiss hubs with Shimano, TRP, and I think someone else's rotors.

Dual Control certainly had issues, no doubt about it, but I think the concept had a lot of promise back in the day. For the average Pinkbiker...? Probably not, but for a lot of mountain bikers who just like to ride, maybe.
  • 3 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: Agree 100% on all of that!
  • 13 6
 @jlrotax583: BS they're not in shear to some degree. You'd argue that if you could apply duct tape with the same amount of clamping force of the bolts the rotor would hold firm huh?
  • 9 0
 @ninjatarian : When centerlock was first introduced there was 2 different size interfaces. 1 for QR (the current one) and one for 20mm (larger than the current one, and 15mm was not around yet). This forced customers to have 2 different rotor sizes and less compatibility. Shimano eventually ditched the larger centerlock which is also what is needed for most companies other than Shimano to make a 20mm hub work with center lock. As most brands use cartridge bearings it doesn't leave enough room to fit a durable enough bearing.

Another major draw back to centerlock is that Shimano has been removing the license for lock ring over the past few years which again make it difficult for brands to sell hub without the lockring. The lock ring that comes with most Shimano rotor will not work on a 15x100 hub.

There are other drawback like bearing placement but those are the two biggest that I see.
  • 2 2
 @mikelevy: I think the ergonomics of dual controls don't mesh well with flat bars and human wrists. Even road bikes use trigger and grip shifters for flat bars, if there was a way to make it work the road crowd would have it by now!
  • 8 0
 @mikelevy: When you license center lock from Shimano they give you the dimension of the pattern, but not the tolerance, which is left up to various manufactures to determine. One would assume a tolerance that would error on loose instead of not fitting, if you get both a rotor and hub and the respective ends of the tolerance you get rocking. Another problem with centerlock.
  • 2 1
 @Fix-the-Spade: Agreed, that motion didn't feel all that natural, did it? Good point. Okay, it was so far from perfect, but I guess what I'm meaning to say is that I think that the issues could have been overcome. It'd never be for the average Pinkbike'er or BC rider, no doubt about that. I should track a set down and re-try them... maybe I'd end up hating them? I'll keep you posted.
  • 18 1
 Centerlock just has poor trailside (or weekend trip / holiday) repairability. hex or torx keys are always there, but the cassette tool?
  • 2 0
 @OTBSteve: Ah, interesting info. Thanks!
  • 5 1
 @mikelevy: That is an article I'm looking forward to. Maybe a whole 'nostalgia bike' with dual control, rapid rise, T.H.E rims and Fly Paper/FSA cranks if someone will loan you a set? Maybe a little ambitious.
  • 2 1
 @mikelevy: how is dual control different from brake lever shifting on road bikes?
  • 3 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: That's too good of an idea to pass up, revisiting things we used to think were way out there. Time to visit the PB buy and sell. Thanks!
  • 2 0
 @xzyragon: The concept is similar, of course, but I think the execution, and obviously the environment they were intended for, were both very different. I understand why Dual Control went the way of the Dodo, but the idea is rad.
  • 7 1
 @mikelevy: have guys at national level that will only use center lock! Never had one loose! Not a shimano fan boy but CL is the best period!
  • 16 20
flag jflb (Feb 15, 2018 at 14:00) (Below Threshold)
 @mikelevy:
Rapid rise was not a good idea.
And it’s not a bad idea just because it’s backwards. It’s bad because they forced it on us and it didn’t work well like they told us it would.
On the good side at least it opened the door for Sram to come in and give us better options.
Dual control works good on road bikes. But not on a bike with constant jarring and death switch disc brakes where you might slam your wheel locked when you think your just shifting and your safe grip of the bar has been loosened to do so.
Centre lock is also shit.
On a bicycle where every click and clunk rattles through the whole machine. An extra clunk or creak when you use your brakes is not good. It adds up the a shittier feeling bike whenever you grab the handlebar. Not confidence inspiring.
Don’t stand up for the shitty ideas Mike.
They’re shitty ideas. The bike business is full of them and it’s bullshit that they aren’t weeded our before they waste our money.
  • 17 3
 @jlrotax583: Regarding 6 bolt rotors, as designed the bolts ARE in shear.
  • 10 8
 @jlrotax583: The bolts are not in shear as long as they are tight... If the bolts are slightly loose then they ARE in shear!
  • 3 9
flag jflb (Feb 15, 2018 at 14:05) (Below Threshold)
 @mnorris122: that’s total bullshit. You’re not attentive enough. Which is the main reason why shitty bike parts get the pass.
  • 5 2
 @jflb: For sure, that's exactly what I said - Shimano's dogmatic approach soured a lot of people. I'll stand by Dual Control being great for many, many riders, though. Not everyone, or even close to the majority of riders, is on scary, technical terrain. I've used Dual Control quite a bit and it was fine on trails that aren't full on.
  • 7 1
 @billreilly: the bolts are in shear as the head of the bolt is in contact with the rotor (friction, thus shear). Granted, much more surface area is in contact with the hub surface (preloaded by the bolt torque), but to say the bolts are not in shear is not entirely true. If the bolts were loose, the braking force would be purely shear in the bolts on the threads, but as you noted that is not the case.
  • 7 10
 Centerlock is not great, they constantly come loose and its always a hassle trying to get the proper lock ring for thru axle hubs
  • 8 1
 @jflb: I've always liked rapid rise
  • 3 0
 @SB66:
For the low budget companies cranking out $10 rotors
  • 1 1
 @drunknride:
If they were to some degree, you would hear 4 clunks everytime you put your car in reverse and applied the brakes.They can't be in shear and held by friction at the same time for very long.
  • 1 0
 @billreilly:
Yup. But not designed to be. That's all I was trying to convey. Your right though, that could be one of the failure modes.
  • 4 0
 @mikelevy: The rocking is real and we can chalk to bad execution again. The idea is sound and working on them is a breeze (unless you're using their equally poorly executed wafer-thin external lock ring) but when your new system has play out of the box that your old system didn't it's a very hard sell.
  • 2 3
 @shredteds:
But the friction under the bolt doesn't come into play until the friction between the rotor and hub is overcome.
And at that point the bolts would no longer be in tension and placed in shear due to the rotor being loose. So the friction under the bolt never is part of the equation.
  • 4 1
 @nsp234: I've never seen a broken rotor trailside, it's so far down the list that it's not something I've considered preparing for.

But it's not really that hard for a weekend trip is it?

I went riding at Blue Derby last weekend, and my repairs & spares fitted in a single small shoebox (my wife wears a size 4):
* two spare chains
* adjustable spanner
* Pedal spanner
* Shimano external BB spanner
* Truvativ external BB tool
* cassette tool
* bottle of chain lube
* grease & grease gun
* friction paste
* spare XT cassette
* spare gear cable & short bit of housing
* blue loctite
* small bottle of shimano mineral oil
* spare sets of brake pads

[Mea culpa, I had a big bottle of Stans as well that didn't fit in the box]

These go with the multi-tool, pump, spare tube, patch kit and quick links that live permanently in my hydration pack.

I know it's overkill having spares like cassettes and chains (especially somewhere like Derby where there are shops you could get them at), but this stuff lives in the shoe-box in my shed drawer, so it's easier just to grab it and stick it in the car than anything else. I also have some buddies that can't be trusted to keep up with maintenance, which can ruin everyone's ride if you're somewhere with no shops, or even have to hang around waiting for the shop to open.
  • 6 0
 @jlrotax583: You guys are arguing the ins and outs of a system that has innumerable cases of it working regardless of which part actually takes the braking forces... to what end?
  • 1 1
 @fullfacemike: The 6 bolt system could be better. I've had rotors come loose and start clunking back and forth.
  • 9 0
 @thuren: I'd highly recommend using a torque wrench (or start going to a shop that uses one if you didn't DIY). Loose rotor bolts is not a flaw in design but rather in installation.
  • 1 1
 @fullfacemike: It would be nice if it was that easy! Yes, it IS a design flaw. Anything in shear like that should use a conical surface at the least. Think lug nuts on a car.... Not to say that it does not work most of the time, but it's not right as it is now.
  • 3 0
 @thuren: As designed its a good system but yea, It will tell you when installed haphazardly. (sp)

The Centerlock is probably a more robust system, but a bit heavier on average?
Its a lot like Beta vs VHS. All depends who adopts it first.... Smile
  • 2 0
 It... is that easy.
  • 1 0
 @jlrotax583: 29" wheels, 200mm rotors, and a 200lb rider, can sure "tell you" more often!
  • 2 3
 @fullfacemike: Ok gotcha.... I'll just pretend my perfectly calibrated Snap On torque wrench is the problem, or maybe it's the bolts, or maybe it's something else letting a rotor of mine shift loose every now and then, haha! Ever wonder why Shimano has those fold over bolt lock tabs?
  • 4 1
 @jflb: to say that CL is shit is just an ignorant comment. Does it hold the rotor on the hub? Yes. Can you feel riding when you are applying the brakes while standing beside your bike, rocking it fore/aft? Yes. However, while riding the bike, no one could ever possibly feel that movement, because when you apply your brakes, the bike isn't rocking back and forth. It's just another way to mount a rotor to a hub. Calling it shit is whack. You may as well call 6 bolt shit, because you have to undo 6 bolts to remove the rotor, tighten 6 bolts to install it, rather than Shimano's one bolt. Arguing about how many bolts hold your rotor on is hilarious, as if we're always removing our rotors. I mean, come on!
  • 5 1
 Amen. Never had any issues with my center lock rotors. Easy to take off and easy to install. It's a much cleaner look too!
  • 10 0
 @jlrotax583:

Seems like a lot of people already reply to your statement.

Still I would like to clarify a few things.

When a brake forcing acting on the rotor. The forces that countering the braking force is bolt shear forces + friction (from bolt head/preload).

Though engineers only consider shear load to the bolts are the actual load path of this system. Since friction in this case is considered to be insignificant or not to be relied on. It means to be a conservative approach.

Now lot of people might think there are room to jiggle during rotor installation but that's all due to tolerance. The correct way is rotate the rotor to the loaded direction till it bottom out (all bolts bearing against the rotor) then tighten it to the spec.

Of cuz, one might argue that some bolt might not be fully engaged to the rotor. And that's a issue with manufacturing so be sure to check if there is elongated holes in case of uneven loading. The principle is to have all bolts provide bearing load in order counter the brake force.

I am a senior structural engineer and this is sort of what I do for living. Be safe shredding and make sure installing the rotor correctly.
  • 7 0
 @thuren: Sounds like you need some Loctite...
  • 2 1
 @jlrotax583 Nope, the friction on the bolt heads (and the hub surface) acts as soon as the rotor has a braking force. Sorry! - Source: non-armchair degree-holding engineer
  • 1 0
 @eimechanics: And, don't try any fun driveway stunts or trials moves, where you might shift your rotor forces the opposite direction!
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike: Anything for the sake of learning/correct info on the internet.
  • 2 0
 @eimechanics:
So explain to me why your car doesn't clunk when braking in reverse?
For the bolts to be in sheer preventing the rotor from turning, it would need to be a slip joint due to the rotor hole size clearance.
Oh, and it actually the tire that stops the bike. Smile
  • 2 0
 @jlrotax583: Car lug nuts have a tapered/conical seat to keep things centered.
  • 2 0
 @shredteds:
You are correct. My point was it isn't the primary mode.
But hey, thanks for the backhanded insult. BTW, I'm on the couch, not the chair.
  • 1 0
 @thuren: not true for rotors. The conical surface on lugnuts ensures that your wheel is centered on the hub so that you don’t get wheel hop. This is not important for a rotor because it can have a radial bit of movement without affecting the braking.

Many common items are designed with fasteners in shear. Girder bridges are one example.
  • 2 0
 @jlrotax583:

Because there are springs, and tolerances on a caliper that mostly prevent it. Some aftermarket pads that aren't made to proper tolerances do exactly that. I've also had cars with aftermarket pads rattle over bumps.
  • 3 0
 @thuren: I maybe came off as a jerk but I'm trying to be helpful (hopefully for everyone with this problem). If you have the same Snap On I do it's almost a foot and a half long and that just doesn't work with a T25 head that's only a couple mms deep (the bolt heads are a different complaint for a different day). I use a much shorter Mariposa and even that's a little unwieldy on these bolts. A P- or T-handle preset not only lets you apply the torque a lot more consistently in this scenario but they are also more than accurate enough. Use new bolts; if you've got a Snap On you can afford new bolts. At the very least apply new Loctite. Apply force clockwise to the rotor and hold it while you tighten in a star pattern. If you're still having rotors come loose you might have damaged the threads on the hub. If you're still having trouble, pull up the manuals for the hub and the rotor as they may be nuanced (they don't all use 6.2nm). If none of those do it (and take this with a big dose of "not trying to be a dick" here) you might not have the finesse for this and need to take it to reputable shop.
  • 1 0
 @UtahBikeMike:
Those are things that prevent pad rattle, taper wear and encourage pad retraction.
With a correctly designed and torqued joint, it should not be possible to spin the rotor when braking.

And your right about aftermarket pads rattling.Most of the time it is from undersized backing plates.
The flip side is you can get more even pad wear with more of a loose fit do to less binding and better retraction.
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike:
Good points Mike. I'd like to add that the quality of the bolt impacts clamp load of the rotor, even when torqued correctly. You just don't know were the yield point is on questionable bolts. Ive had rotor bolts that were barely harder than pot metal. Using a new good quality bolt, preferably with proper loctite is a must.
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike:

I have all snap-on torque angles.

I re-use rotor bolts and still tighten them by hand. I only use the torque wrench when I'm torquing seat clamps, stems, handlebars and the like. The 1/4" one torques rotor bolts well, only used it once on a new set of wheels, because lazy.
  • 1 0
 @bogey: Good point about automotive rotors! That said, they have full surface friction on both sides, and a lot of bolt torque, to help hold in place.
  • 2 0
 @fullfacemike: Not being a jerk at all no worries! Good info you are posting! My torque wrench is the small one. Inch/lb toque only. I'm an engineer and more. I have a lot of background in this stuff. The internet is funny you could be talking to a 12 year old kid, or Einstein, you never know. Having a brake rotor design that does not use a press fit shoulder bolt(s), or conical seat, is just sloppy engineering. We are dealing with left over technology from 1995, when tiny disk brakes controlling 26" wheels had little power, and back then that technology was cutting edge. These days, what we have for 6 bolt rotors is sloppy, literally.
  • 1 0
 @thuren: need to clarify my post a bit. Auto wheels have the conical surface, the rotors don’t. The rotors fit on the studs with clearance holes only. And you’re correct, they have a ton of surface area that is clamped with mucho force so they don’t move easily.
  • 3 2
 @mikelevy: Thanks for mentioning that Mike, I wish Centerlock would just go away for good. Who decided something was wrong with 6 bolt anyway?

Also don't like how Shimano (purposely) reserves the finned (Freeza?) rotors for Centerlock rotors only.

And have begun a personal mini crusade against double lock on grips. Oh, how I adore the outside of my hand getting pummeled by that outer lock ring.
  • 2 0
 @thuren: think about a dirtbike sprocket. when theyre loose itll rip the hub apart. when theyre tight, it runs forever.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Rapid rise was the easiest thing on earth to get used to. We still have an XT version on one of my kids bikes. I rode it for years after years on a normal shifter. Its a no brainer. There must be some other reason it didnt catch on, but I cant think of one...
  • 4 0
 I have to agree @ninjatarian although I hope centre lock doesn't go the same way as rapid rise. For me personally centre lock is a god send, I travel a lot with my bike (like a lot, 90,000+ miles last year / 25 countries in 5 years)im constantly mounting and removing rotors as the bike goes in and out of the bike bag ( experience tells me not to trust baggage handlers!). I've run a variety of rotors and hubs and personally never suffered from disk rock. My current DT Swiss and TRP set up is rock solid. #savethestandard
  • 1 0
 @thuren: not sure why you'd have a 'perfectly calibrated' snap-on torque wrench in your (no doubt impressively stocked) toolbox but then not have heard of thread lock?
If you're not using the correct type of thread lock when putting a steel bolt into an alu hole then I very much doubt that you are getting the correct torque reading anyway...
  • 3 1
 How in the name of Allah and Shiva have we decided that the 6-bolt system is bad? Do people regularly swap rotors between rides? Plus, Levy says the rotors rock with CL and I believe everything he says.
  • 1 0
 @jlrotax583: kudos
You saved me having to write it!
  • 1 0
 @OTBSteve: Yes.. I had 2 sets of wheels, Saint hubs, Mavic rims. both 20mm thru axle. the hubs must have been of different ages. One had a centrelock that could be removed with a cassette tool, the other needed a larger version! I assume the smaller (now common fitment came later, as Shimano had worked out how to get the small tool over the 20mm axle tube)
I love shimano stufff... but having to buy a £25 special socket to remove a rotor left a sour taste! Also, the entire centrelock spline was larger, and those large bore rotors are like hens teeth!
  • 1 2
 @thuren: the bolts are only in tension...
  • 2 1
 @thuren: wrong again.
Do you think 5 bolts in shear will hold a car wheel on?
The conical section is to align the wheel to the hub properly, so that all the bolts can be fitted properly - so equal TENSION can be applied.
It is hub to wheel friction which keeps the wheel on. The friction is created by the tension in the bolts
  • 1 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: I agree mate, fine on a roadie with drop handles and a vertical grip but soon S IT GOES FLAT IT'S RIDICULOUS
  • 1 0
 @mm732: Exactly! That is why the best Moto sprocket and brake rotor designs use bolts with counter sunk heads. The goal is to keep the sprocket or rotor from shifting, and make sure it's center. Once it slips back and forth a few times, it's all over!
  • 1 0
 @robhill: Agree'd the bolts are only in tension....... When they are tight.
  • 1 0
 @robhill: The car wheel was a bad analogy here in a way, as a car wheel see's forces from MANY directions, unlike the brake rotor itself. To that though, yes the 5 bolts hold the car wheel on when ripping around a corner with high lateral forces.
  • 1 2
 @Obidog: The hundreds of bicycle brake rotor bolts I have seen, all have the blue dab of thread lock. Though
thread "LOCK" is a funny name, as unless you are using the RED(high heat required to remove), that blue stuff is only there to keep the bolts from falling out if they do come loose. The blue Loctite does not "LOCK" anything.
  • 4 0
 Amen. Still can't understand how six-bolt still exists. Let alone how it still remains dominant.
  • 2 2
 Centerlock is not a failure due to marketing, but to design. They could have easily made the design such that a rotor fits onto the hub in a keyed manner without any extra piece on the rotor, so it is still laser cut from a single piece of steel or aluminum, that slides onto your hub, then you have a screw on cap that snugs it to stay there, as a backup for the cap a tiny pinch bolt keeps it from unwinding. This is much like the Race Face Cinch system. Now you have a winning idea, a rotor that is as cheap as laser cut steel rotors, it's easier to change, and requires less parts to attach. The hub change may be a wash as now you don't have to mill and tap 6 bolt interfaces, now you have to cut one thread for the cap, and then have one part for the screw on piece.
  • 1 0
 @UtahBikeMike: It's got a torque spec. You've got a torque wrench. No excuses.

@thuren: It's getting harder and harder for me to not come off as a dick but here goes: Understanding how the system is designed does not qualify you to install it any more than understanding how to install it qualifies me to design it. You sound like a very competent engineer and I'm not trying to one up you here but your bolts come loose.
  • 1 0
 @thuren: Most new car brake rotors just sit on the edge of the wheel stud. No conical interface. In shear. On a way heavier vehicle than a bike. The only time you would want a tapered interface is to provide perfect centering. Bike rotors don't need that, and would up the expense quite a bit. Use some threadlocker on the rotor bolts. As you should be using on almost every bolt on your bike. Problem solved.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Never had spline rocking issues using Shimano rotors on Shimano hubs.
  • 1 0
 @jflb: Problem with dual control levers, was if any thing went wrong you had to replace whole unit, plus could not use different brakes, this was not a problem when started producing them as v brakes but disks brakes
  • 3 0
 @eimechanics: thank you for the correct explanation. I'm a mechanical engineer. The assertive way some people wrongly present basic engineering principles in Pb comments drives me nuts sometimes. But they can not be lectured either...
  • 1 0
 @scotthy72: Yes automotive rotors DO have a tapered surface! Not always, but quite often the brake rotor is not just loose on the studs, but rather there are a few counter sunk head bolts that both the rotor to the hub.
  • 1 0
 @madblack: He does explain it well, and I agree with everything he says. This is why I feel the rotors need conical/counter sunk bolts retaining them, to make sure they all take some of the shear force. At least put a shoulder on the bolts or something!
  • 2 1
 @jlrotax583: I had one centre lock wheel (I don't anymore), its definitely heavier, doesn't look as clean, needs a cassette tool, more expensive rotors, I didn't experience the rocking / knocking but heard many other complain of it.

6 Bolt in 20+ years of use I've never had any come loose or fail and have several expensive top end hubs that keep getting re-used on new rims so centre lock for me is just another pointless new standard fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
  • 1 0
 @fullfacemike:

Yeah i do. I'm lazy. I'm yet to have a rotor bolt come loose, strip my hub or have any other issues.
  • 2 0
 @StevieJB: I've had several of both. Centerlock is barely heavier, if at all. IMO, it looks way more "clean" than ISO, and it uses a tool that you can use for other things on your bike (nothing else on any of my bikes needs a T25 bit). I have experienced the rocking but it's silly to complain about because it's only a factor when you stand and rock your bike back and forth while holding the brake.

Conversely, i've dealt with plenty of stripped ISO bolt holes, and several sheared bolts. So for me centerlock is hands down the better solution.
  • 2 0
 @Rasterman: no no, Shimano engineers surely never thought of that! Keep rockin that armchair!
  • 39 0
 Hammerschmidt? I’m still rocking this one on my 26’ Nomad. As much as I like it, it’s getting hard to out run dinosaurs.
  • 7 0
 Agree. Love the hammerschmidt. still watch local used ads hoping to see one for sale.
  • 17 0
 Yes! But the weight and friction were annoying.
  • 8 0
 I would love to try and engineer a 5 speed hammerschmidt that you could put on a DH bike. The drag on the old one was only in the overdrive, so I don't think it mattered since you'd climb in the low-drag state. On a DH bike a little drag is fine, and with a 5 speed you could ditch the rear derailleur and have that smooth suspension action Gwin talked about when he broke his chain. Even if it was sort of heavy, you're losing the rear derailleur and cassette, and its a DH bike anyways. This would bring gearboxes to any frame with ISCG tabs without a heavy, unsprung geared hub.
  • 1 0
 Hammerschmidt was a very awkward system. Almost the weight of a gearbox, still needed a rear mech, added a lot of drag and interfered with the suspension. I think once Pinion got their system going it removed any reason for Hammerschmidt to exist, wide range, no mech, less drag (than Hammerschmidt), same ground clearance.
  • 21 0
 So I loved Hammerschmidt so much that I put it on a Remedy frame back in 2008 or 2009. The frame didn't have ISCG tabs so I tacked an adapter on and then brought the shell back down to the right width and faced it properly. I also had to slice up the Hammerschmidt's backplate to clear the Remedy's drive-side chainstay.

I shifted it via a PopLoc remote (I think) mounted to the underside of my bike's top tube, like a suicide shifter. It was a pretty neat setup. I also had my girlfriend at the time draw a bunch of art on the frame with a permanent marker.

www.pinkbike.com/photo/4074188
  • 6 0
 Before Hammerschmidt there was (and still is) the Schlumpf dual speed crankset. You shifted by pushing a small button that was essentially the crankbolt cover with your heel. Surprisingly intuitive after half an hour. No cables. Swiss-made, tool steel. My dream bike would have one.
  • 4 0
 @iamamodel: I've used a Schlumpf shifter and it's pretty neat. Not sure about on the trail, but it's a good way to make a tricky fixie, too.
  • 5 0
 I’ll say this about my beloved Hammer, weight and friction aside. After almost ten years of riding, zero maintenance issues, totally bombproof, tons of clearance and love the instant and flawless shift. As I can’t wait for a new bike with all the modern fancies, I will always think fondly of my Hammer.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Nice bike art!
  • 5 0
 @Bomadics: Thanks! She did a pretty rad job if it. Look at the seat post... Jesus, I used to ride bikes that were too small haha
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: So much drag in the high range. On the upside made me realize I was good with a single ring way back in 2009. Wink
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: removing the rear derailleur would not give you the smooth suspension action Gwin talked about when he broke his chain as you would still have a chain. Most suspension bikes there is chain growth which in many cases makes the suspension not work as well, even if you didn't have any rear cogs (other than one) you would still need something to allow for chain growth. And as long as you had a chain you won't get that feel that Gwin is talking about. The rear might be more reactive due to the decreased weight but not what made Gwin's bike feel so good without a chain.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Dude you rode a bike, size doesn't matter! (duck & cover)
  • 1 0
 I'm still riding my Hammerschmidt twice weekly, on my 26" rose beefcake. It's so unbelievably reliable, I've serviced it twice in 7 years! More than once I've broken a rear mech, and found that with it locked mid cassette I can still carry on riding all day thanks to the Hammerschmidt. I can't say enough good things about it, the only downside is the weight, which isn't even that excessive.
  • 1 0
 @OTBSteve: YOu would have the lower idler pulley like what the Zerode has, right after the hammerschmidt. It wouldn't have a derailleur clutch, and maybe you could do a belt, so there would be very little drag even with chain growth.
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: a Schlumpf? I’d ride anything called a Schlumpf!!
  • 50 14
 Yes I have an idea... 26” wheels
  • 31 10
 RIP
  • 7 10
 @mikelevy: caution: this is propping system test #26marsfill
  • 26 5
 I got another one!! Back when Waki was cool... lol
  • 5 0
 @mikelevy: I'm feeling triggered...
  • 4 5
 @whattheheel: His artwork was more entertaining than his comments section performance.
  • 10 8
 I have a strange feeling that writing “caution this is propping system test” under a comment supposedly praising 26” wheels, was like telling a girl: Hey, I bought you flowers and I am saying I love you, forgive me, but I’m not really sorry, I just need to screw someone tonight
  • 16 0
 (hand in the air) still riding 26"!
  • 32 0
 Good idea, but executed poorly? Bike shops.
I work in shops and am embarrassed by what I see passing as 'qualified' labor.
Product wise, biopace was shit but the newer, properly aligned rings makes sense for all race bikes. It also helps reduce chainring wear for our high torque mtb efforts by increasing the number of teeth that are pulling the chain. Lots of rings only have 4 teeth that are worn out on opposite sides of the chainring.
  • 39 0
 Blame the wages and the fact that we're conditioned to believe that being a bicycle mechanic can't be an adult job. So dumb.
  • 7 0
 @mikelevy: Absolutely. Mediocrity abounds in the industry, but I thinks it's just as much a societal change to devalue the 'common' employee
  • 18 3
 @mikelevy your argument in favour of rapid rise having a spring that could "overcome the friction in your old cable" doesn't actually offer any benefit over "low normal" (aka standard) direction shifting... because those derailleurs also have a spring. What Rapid Rise really sucks for is that you can't force it to shift fast enough to an easier gear, nor can you jump up 3 or 4 gears easier in one shift. I never ever have a sudden need to be in a gear that's 4 gears harder than where I currently am, but the reverse is true every single ride - if you accelerate suddenly it's because you're pointed down a steep gradient where pedaling is irrelevant anyway, but if you decelerate suddenly it's because you went from down (or flat) to up suddenly... where you DO need to pedal suddenly. I rode it for a while and it was just annoying.

Dual control was great when panic braking pulled you into the wrong gear on rough terrain. Rode that briefly, it was annoying but maybe had a place with XC racers (also freed up your thumbs for remote lockouts! Yaaaay!).

Pedal bearings do indeed suck, but so does putting the bearing further away from the load, ie in the crank arm where you now have your full body weight levering on it with the pedal body instead of having a bearing directly beneath the load path. Those Flypaper pedals were pretty grippy though. The THE rims (which came out before 2006, I think more like 2003 or 2004, and UST has been around since at least 2002) were ignored at the time because everyone associated THE with TLD-knockoff helmets that didn't fit anyone's heads and enormous mudguards, and because the rims weighed a ton at a time everyone was obsessed with weight. And because when you hit the PVC guard enough times it broke. Other than that, great idea Smile
  • 7 2
 You can downshift as fast as you can tap X on a playstation controller. Same precision every time. Only problem is when you're other bike is normal. But it's like being bilingual after a while.
  • 3 0
 YES THIS. On my old Iron Horse with rapid rise, if you were really on the cranks and the chain was under tension it sometimes wouldn't shift up at all unless you cleaned your chain after every ride.
  • 5 0
 I had rapid rise xtr on a URT Trek!! It was the first trigger shifter I ever used, everything else is weird!
  • 3 2
 @BenPea: I can push through 4 gears in the time I can tap that button once... because you are tapping it once. And you're using your thumb instead of your forefinger (remember that rapid rise pre-dates Shimano's thumb-only shifting by several years) which at least to me is way more intuitive and comfortable. I rode rapid rise on a bike for about 9 months, it sucked - it did everything worse IMO. The whole idea of smoother shifting is only relevant on the road - I don't really care if it clunks a bit, I just don't want to have to spend 5 minutes trying to coast up a steep hill while a spring with the physical strength of a depressed quadriplegic decides whether it wants me to be in an easier gear or not. Was glad to see Rapid Rise disappear, it was garbage.
  • 1 3
 Rapid rise was Shimano's rip off of Suntour XC's derailleur. When Maeda Industries stopped selling Suntour in the US, Shimano saw a way to improve their product without admitting that Suntour was superior all along.
  • 2 1
 I'm afraid I don't get the point, you need to upshift more than 2 gears at a time? Granted I used to live in a place where there isn't mountains (Perth West Australia) but when I'm climbing, I've never found the need to upshift more than 2 gears at once and the XTR shifter/rear mech would let me do this with 1 movement of the trigger. Getting to the top of the climb and starting to descend, the rapid rise would let you select 4 cogs in one hit as a downshift, I found this of more benefit. From what I can gather though, the terrain you ride is significantly steeper than ours as we need to pedal to get the speed up.

I've changed from rapid rise to di2 (No, I'm not a dentist, just a glorified mechanic) so skipped the whole retraining my brain thing.

I really wish UST tyres were still available (Tubeless ready isn't as good), they were the bomb on my old Mavic 823's
  • 2 0
 I found rapid rise great on my DH bike because I could change up a gear quicker when accelerating. Changing down was less of an issue. For trail riding though I completely agree that downshifting takes priority and needs to be quick. When you really need low gears you need them in an instant which isn't the same for high gears.
  • 1 0
 @Socket: I have SRAM Attack shifters (works with Shimano), so 2 thumb triggers, but have another RR with LX shifters. Never really experienced issues with an XT mech and its strong spring. Clean cables important as ever. You can get used to stuff if you can't find any drawbacks. Maybe I lose 0.1 of a second on a double shift, but at least chains stay intact.
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: I had 3 bikes one with group shift, one with Shimano and standard derailleur, and one with rapid rise. It's all worn out and in the yeah except that rapid rise derailleur, it just won't die, it still works great.
  • 1 0
 @Duderz7: I'd still have one if my wheel hadn't eaten it. Can't get hold of them any more. Had to update to 9 speed shadow (which does offer greater chain tension).
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: I have one in service and I believe there may be another laying around. Check the buy/sell next week and you may find one.
  • 2 0
 @Blackers: Yeah, it's a thing. Come to Tassie and you'll understand. On the pedals using a low gear, turn corner on trail, faced with 45% wall of roots and rocks, dump gears into low range, proceed. 15-20 times per ride. Actually part of the charm of MTB for me Smile
  • 1 0
 @skerby: it's ok, I'll live
  • 3 0
 @Blackers: the terrain in BC is a little steeper. You pretty commonly go from having some forward momentum to having backwards momentum in quite a hurry if you aren't quick on the shifting.
  • 15 0
 I can't figure out why 20mm front axles have not taken over, all the way down to XC bikes....
  • 11 0
 The M-link on the breezer repack bikes. I rode a 6" travel heavy bike up a hill and beat all my stravas. no pedal bob and great suspension response. But the geo was so bad I went over the bars on the way down twice. The back half of the bike was great, but the front sucked. it was like a 90's front end.
  • 14 0
 That was/is an interesting bike. It pedals SO well but is far too linear, and the geo needed updating. I suspect that'll happen for 2018.
  • 11 0
 Pneumatic shifting. Shimano's Airlines system was pretty neat back in the day. A little too proprietary at the time but I feel like we could fairly easily make it work nowadays. Or maybe the Acros hydraulic shifting system. Another neat idea.
  • 14 1
 talas, and all the other 2 position systems.
  • 7 0
 U-turn worked really well, the rest weren't so reliable
  • 1 0
 Before the dropper posts that was all the rage.
  • 2 0
 I have the new Lyrik DPA and don't find any disadvantage. In fact, in 150mm mode, it seems be more progressive so it's near perfect for 'trail' riding and at 180mm great for park and 'enduro'. Don't understand the hate...
  • 6 4
 @Klainmeister: people hate because they don’t understand.
Travel adjust forks are essential where the climbing is steep.
Why not have a bike that’s easy to climb steep technical and shreds on the way down too?
Mostly because enduro riders don’t like it and they just walk when the climbs are too steep anyway.
  • 5 0
 @jflb: Not worth the performance sacrifice to most riders. More seals = more stiction, plus it's harder to work on.
  • 5 0
 @jflb: There is the fact that by dropping your fork 30mm, you decrease your BB height and generate more pedal strikes, which is not ideal for tech climbs.
  • 3 0
 They can have their 3 position shocks back too IMO. Give me wide open and a pedal or "platform" lock out with a bit of give at both ends please.
  • 1 0
 @jkowitz: ya it has to be put on the right bike. And be used for the right terrain.
So i understand why it seems useless to most people.
The performance sacrifice is a non issue compared to not sitting right on your dick up 4 hours of brutal climbing.
But since that’s not enduro it doesn’t really matter right.
  • 1 0
 @jkowitz: in this instance it's a Yeti Sb6, so it goes from 150mm to 180mm, which is pretty amazing. Compared to the 36, even if there was more stiction you would never notice. It performs better than my Pike RT3...
  • 1 0
 Another fan of dropper forks here. jflb is right on. It helps to have a bike with a ever so slightly too tall BB that's true. Heck I keep my dropper fork down 80% of the time cuz I like the quiicker steering, I only raise it for serious downs. My buddy has the exact same bike and its clearly easier to climb steep tech on a lower fork.
  • 1 0
 @riish: still does... ATA too...
  • 1 0
 i had a dual position pike which was ok. only thing i didnt like was the breakaway feeling when it passed the short travel position. and after starting to feel that, i could not un-feel it. and i found i never bothered dropping it lower anyway, even for long climbs. i switched to a 36 and have been happy ever since. on a yeti sb95 if youre wondering.
  • 2 0
 Talas is like having 2 bikes in one. I love it. Reliable, too. I'm rocking a fork from 2003, just do proper maintenance.
  • 2 0
 The Manitou IT (infinite travel) system was freaking amazing on my old Nixon Platinum. Required some tight tolerances, but if serviced at least once every year or so it just dominated when it comes to technical climbing. You could take a long travel fork and drop it anywhere in it's travel, including to 0mm, and turn any slack ass long travel bike into freaking amazing technical climbing machine. I cleaned climbs with that fork that elude me to this day. I know they licensed the technology from Bionicon IIRC, speaking of which...
  • 1 0
 Indeed. Back then bikes did not have knuckle dragging BB height. One would just size lower position for trail riding/climbing and upper one for descending.
Still have coil Uturn on one bike, and miss old Wotan.
Admittedly newer geometries reduce the need for adjustment. Still don’t like low BB trend though.
  • 15 6
 12 spd. Why the hell would I need so many gears. A might aswell walk gear it would be faster, and a I don't have legs like Chris hoy gear with a skinny little chain that won't last, a lead weight that's ruins the suspension and that costs a fortune out back, shift gaps so small I spend half my ride shifting gears to get any meaningful difference in drive. Even my cr@py legs work at more than rpm.
Rant over
  • 5 0
 For sure. But I'd argue that the root of the issue is the crazy wide cassette range that everyone thinks they need, which in turn requires more cogs so the jumps between gears are stupid huge.
  • 9 0
 I'm seriously thinking about going 2x and getting the rear suspension back to lightness. 1x is neat, but that weight right @the axle is BS Smile ...I'm surprised more people don't realize that issue
  • 6 1
 I agree 12 is a lot of gears and most don't really 'need' them. That said, I live in Colorado. Having 12-speeds/wide range is really enjoyable on our steep and long climbs 6000-8000 feet high. Plus, being able to run a larger front ring really helps if you want to push it on the downs. Plenty of 11 and 10-speed out there for those who want to still run it. I am 43 and remember when XTR 8-speed and then 9-speed came out. Many were saying the same (nobody needs that many...)
  • 3 0
 @markg1150 Biggest problem I have with it is dead gears, I use the top, the bottom and a couple in the middle. Having used SRAM's EX1 set up I'd love to see a non-Ebike version come along, beefy mech, nigh indestructable chain (even if it is unique to EX1 and not normal 8spd) and 8 definite steps between each gear. If the cassette wasn't a million billion pounds I'd be using it on my own bike already. Still has the huge cassette problem, but loses the dead cogs I never used on 10/11/12spd.
  • 4 1
 I should sell my 1x while it's low mileage and before "2x, The best thing since sliced bread" movement starts ....hahahaha (I purposely bought a new bike last yr that could be retrofitted to 2x...just in case Smile
  • 5 1
 @loopie: Agree. That said, my XO1 Eagle cassette is lighter than my previous 2x cassettes.
  • 5 1
 Some of us live in steep places. On 10 speed i lived at both ends of the casette. 11s made it better. 12s let's me run a larger chainring and live more towards the center of the casette. Works extremely well for me and with gx eagle it's affordable
  • 3 2
 I completely agree. I when from a 9 to 11 and now my 11 is so finicky the slightest cable stretch or bump to the cage and it stops shifting properly. And for what? I can barely notice individual shifts.
  • 4 0
 10 speed all the way here. Over winter I have been running an old drivetrain with 11-36 cassette with a 32t up front on a 29er. I have managed all of my regular climbs and even a few new tricky ones. Once I go back to 42t out back it will give me a bailout gear. I can't understand how anyone needs a 50t rear cog with 275 wheels. You would almost need to trackstand to keep your balance.
  • 3 0
 @UtahBikeMike: Just to clarify, that means you almost never use the giant cogs you paid extra for right?
  • 2 0
 @fartymarty: it's for the end of the day when you have one last 20% climb to clear and you're already breathing out of your eyeballs.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: I had that the other day and wished I had my 42 out back. That late in the day I will happily push up and take it easy down because you should never try and do your last run fast anyway.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: Last time I tried to take it easy on a descent I hurt myself quite badly. Doesn't work for me unfortunately.
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: yeah there is a balance. I find the same. Take it too easy and you make silly mistakes and get hurt. Push to hard when you are tired and you have to drive 16 hours back from the Morzine to UK the next day with a black bruise the size of a dinner plate on your hip.
  • 1 0
 @fartymarty: clutch hip or cruise control hip? :-)
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: can't remember as it was 13 years ago.
  • 3 0
 I went back to 2x. It's not as bad as everyone said. Cheap and cheerful.
  • 2 0
 @friendlyfoe:
That's the hope, but it usually doesn't work like that. I try to keep the massive one as a bailout gear but after a few hours it becomes my best friend.
  • 1 0
 @friendlyfoe:

And to just note, i didn't pay that much extra. Gx eagle and gx 11s are in my opinion, too close in price for the extra benefit of 12s.
  • 1 1
 Agree wish 12 speed would disappear, 10 speed ideal, the chain and spaces between sprockets is big enough it doesn't clog with mud too badly and the gaps between gears are just right for mountain biking, we are not roadies with cadence sensors needing micro gaps between ratios. I almost never shift a single gear even with 11speed. I also wish the Shimano free hub would disappear though, the SRAM XD is just so much better allowing a 10T or even 9T, the perfect setup for me would be 10speed 10-42T with a 30T chain ring.
  • 1 0
 @StevieJB: Disappear? So because you don't like something nobody else should have it even if they find it perfect for their riding style needs? I heard very similar arguments when8-spd, 9-spd 10-spd, AND 11-spd came out. If 10-speed is perfect for yuu, then great. I can go online or many local shops and find 10-speed XT all day long. Plus SRAM 10 - speed if you dug a bit. 12 speed is perfect for my location and I have had zero issues. 4 trips to Moab with it, miles of Colorado trails, etc
  • 1 0
 @bman33: I haven't crunched all the numbers yet...except that I see light weight 46+ cassettes are big bucks and the cheap 46+ cassette are tanks. Lots to consider for sure.
  • 2 1
 @bman33: 10 speed XD 10-42T point me to one and I'll buy it, but far as I'm aware it doesn't exist as with every 'upgrade' we always have to have more cogs, bigger numbers, something to brag about over the competition rather than refine, perfect and ask is further change actually wanted?

Can you tell me anything better for mountain biking about a 12 speed cassette with 10-42 range against a 10 speed with 10-42?

I see it as more weight, more sensitive mech adjustment required for equal shifting, more multiple shifts required to get to the right gear, clogs with mud easier, weaker shorter lived chain, higher cost because of the extra cog, less reliable shifting.

I said I'd like 12 speed to disappear as we all know the big companies won't go back and release new options for their 'old' standards.
  • 1 0
 @StevieJB: why would you buy the same gear range in 10 and 12? That defeats the purpose unless you are primarily XC and enjoy/prefer tighter increments between gears. The wider range of 12 let's me run a bigger front ring so I have more range in the top end and easy gears. Sorry you have issues keeping things adjusted. Me along with numerous people I ride with have zero issues. That said, my X01 Eagle weighs less than all my previous 11 & 10-speed cassettes so that is null in my case. It sheds mud pretty well also with all the machining

I can't afford or maintain a Ferrari. Should I wish for those to disappear as well?
As for parts, I'll dig around for some links and send them your way.
  • 1 0
 @StevieJB: Shimano recently released the M6000 Deore 10 spd 11-42t cassette, that might count as refinement. I agree, 9 or 10 speeds are ample for most including me.
A properly set up 2x also works remarkably well.
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: allegedly it is 40-50g heavier than a Sunrace. Probably has better shifting tho.
  • 2 0
 I've never spent any time in the 1x vs 2x threads that are out there...but I'm sure all the facts of both sides have been hashed out and it's a matter of whatever you/we want. Kamloops has big climbs...and fast as F descents...ALL the range is nice, which can be had with either setup. But for ultimate hard climbing... 24T granny gives a better leverage ratio at the crank...no?
  • 1 0
 @woofer2609: Correct. 2x can work as flawlessly as 1x while providing more range (although nothing is flawless). It just doesn't offer those 2018 aesthetics (old-school chainguide). Hating front derailleurs (and people really do) is a little excessive.
  • 1 0
 Don't like 2x, More weight more maintenance more bar clutter, cables, noisy. Didn't realise how noisy 2x until went 1x and now I can't go back I hate bike noise.
Having to run a draggy dual chain guide/roller. Either a draggy slider or a noisy roller with a bearing that goes every 2 mins. For what? the same range as a decent 10spd.
  • 1 0
 @markg1150: I think I am with you on that one. I haven't been on 2x since the late 90s (when chain guides came out and I could ditch the front mech). I would rather run out of big gears and freewheel down a hill than put a front mech back on.

The only reason I would put one back on would be if I were bike packing and really needed the low gears. But saying that I would just get a smaller ring up front and be done with it.

Even though we don't have mountain in the south east there are still some punchy climbs that I can make it up on 1x. Any steeper and I will walk.
  • 2 0
 @fartymarty: I think if you're happy with what you've got, then you win the argument. I like having a 524% range (20/34-34/11), it's all a hell of a lot quieter than my hub and I have zero maintenance issues. Roller has kept spinning silently for years and I've had the same front mech cable/housing for as long as I can remember. 1X is right for you boys. Happy days.
  • 1 0
 @bman33: I have absolutely no need for the range offered by Eagle, I mentioned earlier what my ideal range requirements are. Therefore, for the range I want and the steps between ratios I want, 10 speed has all the benefits and none of the disadvantages. However "progress" of yet more gears means a lack of availability of my ideal cassette.

For the record I run 11speed XT shifter and mech and XD Sram freehubs GX cassettes on 4 of my bikes as it offers my perfect range of gears. However it would have better bigger steps between gears as a 10 speed, better mud clearance, better durability, reduced manufacturing costs etc. So for me it would be a superior setup.

Keep the Ferrari I'm more a Lotus kind of chap.
  • 1 0
 @StevieJB: If you can put up with a standard freehub there are tons of 10 speed options. Plus they're cheap. I've got no reason for any more gears than 11-42 so will stick with 10 speed.

The other advantage of 1x is oval rings. I'm definitely a fan.
  • 1 0
 @StevieJB: Fair enough points. That said, I very much have use for the range in Eagle where I live/ride. 30 min climbs or more at 2000-2500 or meters altitude plus the long descents make the wide range very useful. That and I gave up front derr years ago. Try a regular Shimano freehub with an XT 10-speed cassette and a One-UP (or competitor's) extender. I used that set up for two years and it was great.

Lotus, hmmm. I would have to go vintage bond era if I went Lotus. For British cars, Aston really sparks my interest. Big Grin
  • 9 0
 @mikelevy - This is a pretty damned good article. Why's it not on the front page?
How does Pinkbike work anyway? I get the feel I'm missing out on some pretty good articles, because they don't get listed.
  • 6 1
 It'll be up on the main page soon. I finished it early (for once) and published it publicly, which is why you can comment on it already.
  • 4 1
 @mikelevy The first comments on this article is posted on Feb 7. Is articles like this available somewhere else before they make it to the front page?
  • 3 0
 @Startgas: No, not normally. I just made a mistake and published it publicly. My bad.
  • 10 4
 @Startgas: Mikes followers get it earlier. Subscribe now. #followmike #opinionclub #stayhumble
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: "Mikes followers get it earlier." Read it in isolation. Doesn't come across well.
  • 5 3
 @BenPea: i think it does
  • 10 2
 Yeah I even invented a few - the ¾ length bib tight with built-in knee pads for example, among other ideas. But the company I was working for at the time, did what they do with all new concepts, they took the design straight to production without sufficient test mules, so the rushed product was ill-fitting and didn't really work.
Another I did, literally years before helmets came with camera mounts was to make the connecting pieces of helmet vents to be circular with a 31.8mm diameter (yes, handle bar dimensions) so that any bar mount would transfer straight to the helmet.
Same again, ok idea, rushed to production, crap outcome that was written off
  • 2 0
 I don't understand the 31.8mm connecting piece? Surely anything clamped round this part will transfer external forces directly to my head bypassing the good squashable helmety bit?
  • 1 0
 @hexhamstu: not if its a rubber band
  • 1 0
 Isn't the 31.8 mm dia. the clamp dia? The handlebar itself is 22.2
  • 9 0
 shimanos redesign/re-imagination/perfection of the front derailleur (like, 5 years too late), and DI2, of course (for mountain bikes). For roadies, DI2 is probably awesome.
  • 17 3
 So much yes. A good Shimano front derailleur destroys every other front derailleur. But front derailleurs still suck regardless.
  • 8 1
 Yes - I have a bike with a shimano side swing XT 2x11. It's the best, smoothest, fastest front derailleur I've ever experienced. And I have a road bike with campy record on it. If Shimano had come out with that derailleur and the carbon chainrings a few years back, I don't think 1x would have been able to get a toe hold. It's just too good. I often have to look down just to confirm it shifted. It's so damn fast and smooth and quiet. I've got a 1x bike, too. I like 1x, but damn that Shimano FD works.
  • 8 0
 Yeah 100% agree. Side swing, for the few people that have tried it, is absolutely amazing. Absolutely RAMS the chain over instantly.

But 5 years too late as you say
  • 1 0
 Yeah, I switched to di2 on my road bike last year and it's a whole new game. Crisp and direct. But it's the most helpful on the front where mountain bikes don't need it anymore and on the rear I wouldn't want it. Constant single gear changes on a road bike to keep cadence are perfect for di2. On a mountain bike I want to bang out three or four gears at a time, and modern cable derailleurs have that sorted. I feel like di2 would be a hindrance to most mountain bikers.
  • 12 1
 Is the Hammerschmidt worthy of inclusion?
  • 5 0
 Totally. I had one for ages and it was great-ish.
  • 10 0
 Anyone remember the Manitou FS frame which was basically a fork out back for seat stays
  • 1 0
 Marin as well.
  • 2 0
 It was beautifully machined though. I saw one in a shop once and looked at it for about an hour.
  • 10 0
 Specialized E150 Fork! Or maybe not
  • 8 2
 I will think tomorrow of some things I wish stuck around, but for now a few thoughts on the above:

1. Rapid Rise derailleurs are definitely cool, but you need some extra time to set them up, just because they are reverse. Back in the day, our Dual/4X champion used an XTR M952 for good reasons: he sprinted out of the gate in a light gear and then he could instantly shift DOWN 3-5 gears (depending on the shifter lever), to get himself in a proper gear that was good for the rest of the course.

2. You are very mild on Dual Control, but let me tell you that the biggest reason why people hated it is because Shimano forced them to use it, because this is what hucking Shimano does and they always acted like this, shoving whatever they wanted down our throats, just because they can. Could one buy a normal RapidFire unit from Shimano in 2003-2004? NO! Shimano only offered you their crappy Dual Control levers you didn't want, because they needed more ”integration” (read: ”you should only buy our stuff and we will force you to do so”). Meanwhile, do you know what SRAM did? SRAM rolled out the second generation of Triggers that actually WORKED and offered you Shimano-compatible levers in good quality with better ergonomics than Shimano. What's not to like? It's this kind of dreadful corporate attitude that still makes me avoid Shimano a much as I can and I am sure I am not the only one.

These companies should learn, for crying out loud, only one simple thing: to be DECENT towards their customers, who are not stupid, by the way. Speaking of decency, all these shitty ”standards” come to mind, and can you remember who recently called all stakeholders together to fix this as much as it can be fixed? Chris King. Chris freaking King! A little company, not your industry mammoth. Do you know why? Because Chris King is first and foremost a DECENT company which cares about its customers and you only need to go to their website to learn why. If you own a King product you probably feel more of this good attitude towards the end consumer too. And have I mentioned Mr. King is a very approachable person and just a delight as a human being? Well, there you go! Our MTB world needs more people like him and less douchebags who fantasize about a fresh method of blackmailing you into buying their damn product.
  • 2 2
 And that is different from SRAM pushing complete 12sp drivetrains on OEM how?

Also, triggers by SRAM still suck.
  • 5 0
 Maxxis rim strips...now reinvented by ENVE. Seriously, they were way ahead of their time in the early 2000s.

1) They provided a level of pinch flat protection at the rim bead.
2) They could easily be donned and doffed to access spoke nipples otherwise locked away under non reusable tape. When I had ENVEs I didn't have to access the nipples often, but when I did I really hated ruining/wasting a good tape job. I guess ENVE saw the light, at least sort of for some of their rims.
  • 3 0
 Excellent example.
  • 5 1
 Adjustable stroke rear shocks. The Dyad on my Jekyll was sweet. In the short-stroke setting, the bike became more efficient yet more active on small stuff than when flipping on the platform on other shocks. Scott and Cannondale have continued with adjustable stroke shocks, but it really hasn't caught on in any major way.
  • 1 0
 More effective idea on canyon strive altering leverage ratio, bb height and head angle with one lever.
  • 9 1
 Shiver SC’s. We need more SC UD forks, because they look cool.
  • 5 0
 XFusion Revel?
  • 3 0
 Wonderful fork. 120mm of ultra plush, feels like 150
  • 2 0
 @FLATLlNE: why did the revel die? You can buy one in Taiwan, but no one in the west seems to be able to get one
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: They seem to be slow to roll them out in North America. I do have a buddy in Winnipeg with one, however. They aren't that hard to get your hands on. Contact Iron Stable in Taiwan, is my suggestion - if anyone wants one.
  • 1 0
 @FLATLlNE: Are they any good? Should I want one?
  • 5 4
 @fracasnoxteam: neh! Shover SC feels like it’s 150 because it has no low spped compression and too soft spring. So it feels like 150 until it bottoms out. Then if you put the bike upside down the oil will pour out through the hole in the top cap, where the adjuster goes through. If you want I can sell you mine. It’s interesting. Like having sex with a dwarf.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: "like having sex with a dwarf" something I'd never thought I'd read on pinkbike
  • 5 2
 @hamncheez: yes, you may want to try it but you don’t want a relationship... off course I meant a dwarf like in LOTR... PC for life
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: xfusion rough cut dampers are pretty nice in my opinion. And the fork itself feels pretty nice. I'd ride it.

For reference I have a mix of Pike's (1 Avy cart), Dvo diamond, and an Xfusion meteic in my ahead right now.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: we prefer to be called "little people"
  • 1 0
 @sk133872: *PC mode off* Hey, f*ck you I'm a little person, bit I ain't no f*ckin dwarf. *PC mode back on*
  • 1 0
 @BenPea: stop acting so small
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: How sorry, I'm glad you make me realise my memories where wrong.
How much for this shitty dwarf?
  • 2 0
 @fracasnoxteam: yes your memories were wrong, just like my memories of Mz Z1 Drop Off 4. Because at the time you had Marzocchi Shiver SC/Z1 and then you had Manitou Sherman which was kind of ok, and then... RS Psylo, Suntour Duro and Manitou Black and other pieces of absolute crap. Pike was the first single crown fork that could match Marzocchi, then came 36, then Lyrik, and then 2008 happened to Marzocchi and we all realized what kind of crap we were riding all this time, masturbating to Richie Shley on Super T and Wade Simmons on Monster T... Back in the days people considered Marozcchi monster a good fork. Do I need to say more? Big Grin Honestly if you ride Rockshox Sektor for a day and then jump back to Shiver SC you'll see that compression damping is no joke. Make no mistake, I'd love an USD 160 fork with decent damping, there are some amazing qualities to this chassis (apart from the low unsprung mass which is a load of bollocks, I'm quite sure USD forks have higher unsprung mass than STD ones since oil is lifted up and down
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: GOod point about unsprung weight. Have you lifted a clean magnesium lower? Its incredibly light that it feels like its made out of styrofoam.
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez: how dare you. I service my forks so I know how much a magnesium lower weighs! I also know how many gallons of oil go into a fkng Shiver Big Grin
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: You service your forks? What are you, a f*ckin xenosexual?
  • 2 0
 @BenPea: no, I’m poor
  • 3 0
 I never thought it would have been easy, but I commute with an Alfine-8 hub that shifts to harder gears with the larger thumb paddle (like rapid-rise) and switch between that and my "normal" derailleur mtb - without issue. Shimano switched that back to "normal" for the Alfine-11, so I guess I'm the outlier. Smile
  • 3 0
 Yes, those times, when marketing bullshit wasn´t so strong and smelly...
Also i miss the mention about that, that the Rapid Rise and Dual Control were two parts of one shifting system. Both together, that had sense. But! Some manufacturers specced their bikes incorrectly (trigger shifters coupled with rapidrise derailleurs-that couple really does´nt sense for me), and from that was the hate of both.
  • 3 0
 Wide bars and slacker angles on Klunkers. XC racers with roadie backgrounds were the worst thing that ever happened to mtb geometry.

I remember seeing Specialized 2.5" Ground Control tires in early 90's on closeout in Nashbar catalogs.

But I'm not seeing the justification for Dual Control brake/ shifter but seems like skinsuits could come back. The skinsuit Moto look is starting to get weird.
  • 5 0
 Grip shift somehow became uncool, but I sure love it. The ability to dump all my gears at once... simple bar setup, fast, precise shifting. I'm still a fan.
  • 2 0
 I put XTR rapid rise on my V 10 and loved it. The reason was because the cable holds the derailleur up against gravity and prevents ghost shifting over bumpy heavy terrain at speed. I would love a rapid rise with a clutch. When the trail is really rough the spring on a normal derailleur cannot handle the g-forces and allows accidental shifts when pedaling.
  • 6 1
 Hammershmidt, I really liked it. I wonder what it what be like now with 10 years of development.
  • 6 0
 I got rapid rise on my pole haha Smile
  • 6 0
 Following the short, high, and steep trend?
  • 6 0
 RockShox Reverb. Bed..bad..bad.
  • 4 2
 Disagree, but there is (was?) a consistency issue for sure. I've had many that lasted years and years without a hint of trouble, but also had some last about five minutes.
  • 1 1
 Maybe the earlier ones. Mine's going into its third year of amazing performance. Serviced it voluntarily twice. Would totally buy again.
  • 2 1
 I put it down to sram/rockshox iffy quality control. You either get a very good one or a very bad one of anything they make and you will find out soon enough.
  • 6 1
 Probably getting some hate for this but I'd say SRAM DUB crankset was a okay idea, but executed poorly
  • 10 2
 It's a great idea but it wasn't told correctly.
  • 3 2
 It was an unnecessary idea. Other companies have already solved the one crankset, all bb standard problem. FSA has their bb392Evo, a longer 30mmm spindle. E THIRTEEN, rotor and others. But then Sram comes along and says, no, we don't play well with others so instead of the 30mm axle that everyone else is using, we're going to make it 28.99 and you have to like it.
  • 1 0
 SRAM really did make it light though, and I heard that it's pretty reliable, if only the axle was standard
  • 1 0
 @BCtrailrider: They made it lighter but compromised BB durability for people with threaded BB's.
  • 1 0
 @Flowcheckers: I did have a friend that wrecked a BB but we assumed that it was just worn, thanks for the info
  • 4 0
 The Hite Rite was ahead of it's time. Raising and lowering your seat was not in fashion for the xc racer crowd in the 90's. Now it's all the rage.
  • 2 0
 For sure, but it was probably executed as well as could have been back in 1873 when it came out.
  • 2 0
 I still can't comprehend why droppers have to be so complex.
  • 1 0
 @schofell84: Gravity dropper is very simple but elegant design... The danger Will Robinson robot arm shock boot is another matter.
  • 2 0
 I feel like double cranksets with a 38-40T big ring never really got the time they deserved in the sun. They are much better than triples but it was almost impossible to find a 104mm BCD 38-40T ring with shifting ramps before XX.
  • 2 0
 Agree.
  • 3 1
 Skinsuits make no sense in this category, since they only equally speed up all racers at the same time. All results would still be the same, Gwin would still lead, but everyone would look super lame. The point of racing is not to get from A to B the fastest, it is to see who is the fastest racer on a given track with a specification of equipment. If they paved the courses or added motors they would go faster too!
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy Don't agree with the froth over inboard crank-mounted pedal bearings. This places the bearing in bending, and crank arm width is constrained by rear triangle envelope so there's little room to fit a pair of bearings, which would help. Bottom line, a crank mounted bearing would likely fail a lot sooner. In addition to this, you have no structural redundancy- if the bearing fails, the pedal falls off. This is bad. If a bearing fails on a spindle type pedal, the pedal body has a high chance of being retained by the spindle, giving you a greater chance of avoiding a dirt sandwich.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: Totally agree with rapid rise. I have an old C-Dale HT that I’m currently repainting and building back up as my commuter/ winter bike. When I first built it I bought an XT 9 speed rapid rise derailleur. I’ve never had a bike that’s shifted quicker or smother than that setup. 3x9 system xt and xtr level. It was no problem to use at all. Both hands did the same thing. Thumbs up, index shifter down. It was literally not a problem to work both shifters simultaneously and throw the chain around. Never missed a shift. Effortless too. I’m currently using XTR and Sram XO level stuff and neither one shifts as good as the xt rapid rise. Truth. So guess what? I’m gonna dust off the old rapid rise when I build her back up. Set it up with British middleburn 20-30-40 chainring setup. (No one needs a 44 chain ring on a Mtb. That’s a dumb idea that took a long time to go away.) I’ll get use out of the 40 because part of my commute is on bike paths. Gear range on the low end with that setup is lower than most 11 speeds, and top end is higher than any 1x that I know of. Chainline will be right in line with how the frame was designed. I’ll see how it stacks up against my modern drives. Something tells me it’ll be fine.
  • 2 0
 4 bolt bashrings (or more correctly crank arm mounted bash rings). f*ck you ICG... about as tough as overcooked pasta

Or am I the only one who thinks using my cranks to get up a feature is cheating??? Hint (its not cheating if it's bigger than your wheel)
  • 4 1
 I had no idea about the whole moving-the-pedal-bearings-to-the-crank idea. But I run Shimano pedals so have never had an issue with durability.
  • 1 0
 I can see why you’d do it, but the potential to damage two components is higher when all of the load is transferred directly to a joint. There isn’t a need when decent pedals will last 4 years before they need bearings anyhow.
  • 1 0
 Really? Because I snap their axles at the thin end easily, sending the pedal shooting off the axle. I gave up on them after the third time. Tiny threaded part/nut taking significant loads, just crap.
  • 3 0
 @stumpymidget: Have you tried the M647 spd pedal? Pretty sure you could land from space on those.
  • 1 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: you can snap the cage very easy -I have still two left ones lying around
  • 1 0
 @optimumnotmaximum: Don't tell that to mine, they might get ideas!.
  • 1 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: all good as long as the right ones are concerned -i would send you my left ones
  • 3 0
 I still have a rapid rise XTR derailleur on a Cannondale Super V. It still works just fine 20 years later. I think the jockeys have been replaced a few times.
  • 1 0
 Sturdy things back then. I used to run a Sachs derailleur and it was the only one that refused to fall apart.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: Sachs was good stuff
  • 1 0
 @properp: Back when a lot of my "rides" were messing around downtown and smashing into picnic tables, it was one of the few derailleurs that refused to fall to pieces.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: can't remember their derialleurs, but being a big fan of the original Grip Shift, the feel of the first Sachs branded grip shifters with that "lock" feature was the lamest ever.
  • 2 7
flag deadmeat25 (Feb 15, 2018 at 13:55) (Below Threshold)
 @mikelevy: Am i missing something? Sachs derailleurs are the sole reason i've been anti Shimano since the 90's. Sachs mechs were so much better than anything else back then and for me that simply continued with Sram. I currently run an X01 DH derailleur and shifter and fail to see how shifting could be any better, but there is still so much shit spouted about it i assumed it was just typical PB f*cktardary.

Though i suppose it's possible that Shimano have got their act together in the last 20 years, for instance i have noticed that the floating jockey wheel (the only thing that made Shimano mechs work in the mud) has gone, and the springs are are much more substantial (the other reason Shimano mechs sucked so much). For those who weren't there, imagine the difference between a firm manly handshake and a slightly clammy limp wristed thumb and fingertips handshake that makes seriously wonder if the guy actually has balls or not, that was the difference between Sachs and Shimano, has it shifted? versus, f*ck me the Terminator just shifted gear for me!

So i'm left thinking, ok so Shimano have basically copied Sram mechs, and now suddenly Sram sucks, so, what am i missing?
  • 2 0
 ..
  • 1 0
 about a year ago I sold my yeti 575 that had XTR 970 rapid rise rear mech. My bike before that was a Specialized FSR XC with XTR 960 rapid rise. I guess I'm in the 1% that actually liked the idea Smile

I'm on sram now...
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy: what happened to the good old days of urban assault? Some of my best ever mountain bike rides were hanging out with friends in the city far away from the mountains.
  • 2 0
 @properp: Same! Those were good times, riding downtown and practicing riding along the tops of parking barriers, having fun on the uphill landings off of loading docks, and spending hours and hours sessioning the same picnic bench.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: back in the day of All or Nothing Rim brakes I used to look for the biggest hill in town then session it riding wheelie after wheelie.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: just curious as to what you called a manual back then? All of the local neighborhood kids called it a manual on a skateboard and a coaster on a bike.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Loading docks were great fun, bike killers though. I hit one a good few times on my Kona U'Hu and it survived, my mate followed in on his Intense Uzzi and it bent the linkage mounts.
  • 2 1
 The key to smooth-running pedals is to use journal bearings - as long as you keep them full of grease, journal bearings have no metal-on-metal contact and there aren't any moving parts, so there genuinely is no wear; literally none at all.

I'm a big guy, ride my bike without much finesse and don't service my pedals more than once a year, but have had 10 year's life out of a set of pedal built like this, which only gave up once the rubber seals perished. The two sets of Specialized Bennies I have at the moment are both going strong after 2 years, with one grease replacement.

The only trade-off is that journal bearings like this usually have a hair's width of vertical play in them all the time, but when you're standing on them, rather than wiggling them in your hands, your weight is obviously only ever pressing down, so you can't feel it.
  • 1 0
 Hey, i loved my rapid rise! Rocked it for about 8 years and like all things after a period of time, you just get used to it and it feels normal. Actually felt really strange when I upgraded my bike in 2016 and it had 'normal' gears. But again, I got used to that too....
  • 4 1
 26 inch wheels They turn better Lighter Stronger than 27.5 There was no hate for 26 inch wheels We have been force fed 27.5
  • 3 1
 26”, there was nothing wrong with it! It’s cheap, light, strong! Maybe why 27.5 and 29er was created, expensive, bad suspension, lots of broken frames, unreliable carbon parts!
  • 1 0
 Also, while not a technological innovation, I don't understand why running brakes moto-style doesn't get more love... My first cyclocross bike was set up right/front, and I've ridden every bike that way since. Gotta appreciate the ability to shift and brake the rear wheel simultaneously.
  • 2 0
 I run right rear because im right handed and my right hand is faster than my left and I use my rear brake more. Plus all the rear stuff is on the right.

Braking and changing down is front brake and rear shifter. I don't think I use both rears at the same time (but will have a look next time I ride).
  • 1 0
 This probably only bothers people who ride moto Smile . Coming from moto first, I only mountain bike these days and once I got used to it, I cant say it bothers me at all. Might be an issue if I was going back and forth though.
  • 1 0
 @friendlyfoe: Yeah I get that argument but I have never ridden moto.
  • 1 1
 @fartymarty: not aimed at you? Moto would be right front brake.
  • 1 0
 In the UK new bikes have to be sold moto setup Right hand front so we all start that way. I imported my 1st DH bike from the US in 1997 and it was Right hand rear and I learned how to ride that way. Recently, I decided to actively try and improve my riding, up the pace a bit and being critical of myself I decided and area for work was braking. I was not very hard on the front brake, I never skidded but used the rear gently a lot, controlling speed but keeping smooth - I thought I'd try and let the bike run more and brake much harder, much more front, struggled with modulation, wasn't going well. So I decided a new tact and swapped to moto (I ride a motorbike everyday as well), it only took a week riding everyday to re-learn on the MTB & I'm now much better at hard braking on the front and faster overall, do feel less rear control and skid a bit more, but overall better. I think right handed people have more control with right hand so makes sense for that hand to be the one doing the more important work.

Plenty of motorbikes these days have linked brakes, slam the front on hard and it give 20% braking to the rear. Maybe linked brakes is something that should be looked at, is there ever an occasion where you want full front braking but no rear braking at all? I guess the other way round maybe the bit that needs sorting as pulling skids it maybe a bummer to have your front activate.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy you’re spending so much time commenting on PB I hope you don’t get in trouble with your boss. :winky:

Also came here to say I’ve got some dual controls sitting in my basement that I thought were nigh-worthless. Dunno if this article increased their value or may then worthlesser. Off to buy-sell!
  • 2 0
 good read Mike. I did admittedly read like 4 paragraphs then watched the last third of Kranked 5, then wrote this and an now going to continue to read said article... it better not be crap!
  • 1 0
 First generation tubeless rims with screw in eyelets for the spokes... I never had these on any of my bikes but rim strips (Gorilla tape) seems to work just as well and it's way easier to manufacture/use.

And dropper posts with levers under the saddle...
  • 1 0
 I like the concept of this article but as someone who tried rapid rise in xc, freeriding and dh on a few bikes..... It was a devil. It killed wheels. Chain spoke cassette threesome galore. But the general sense is not having enough early adopters kills good products is correct and there are many examples like VHS and BETA
  • 1 0
 I imagine rapid rise is a bit like owning an automatic car and a manual car. At first you try to throw yourself through the window as your left foot has slammed the brake thinking it's a clutch...a couple of goes at that and your brain soon learns how to cope with both without needed to be conscious about which one you're in
  • 1 0
 1000% my experience, including the "clutch" incident.
  • 1 0
 Hmm, skinsuits are cool, should still be used Smile
Pedal bearings in the crank. Something shimano tried in the 80s? Allowed perfect circles to be pedalled due to pedal platform being in line with center of pedal axle, one sided though, used toe clips. Larger bearing ues, but also larger hole for pedal to be inserted into crank, obviously newer manufacturing could cure this, but it limited the original to that proprietary crank/pedal combo.
Rapid Rise (Rapid Demise?) You were relying on the spring in the derailleur to move the chain to larger cogs. A tough shift even for cabled derailleurs, despite shift ramps on the cassette and chain profiles, it never matched the performace of the traditional derailleur. It was designed to match shifts front and rear, same action on each shifter has the same result, now that we are almost all 1x thats not necessary.
Dual Control. For whatever reason shimano wanted to make their mtn bike shifters like their road bike ones. Well, we dont ride on roads. Bumpy terrain, especially on a descent where you are braking resulted in a lot of unwanted shifts, kinda like bunny hopping and popping wheelies with gripshifts. It also allowed them to match shifts fr and rr, again with a rapid rise derailleur...
Those THE rims... anyone got a nos set in 32h laying around? I still ride 26"
  • 1 0
 true singlepivot suspension ! a simple reliable system which can produce impressive suspension characteristics, just look at the numbers of Guerilla Gravitys GG DH. Nowerdays everyone thinks it is a dated and inferior design - which is partly true if you look at the way it is still executed by orange and the likes with too much antisquat and not enough progression.
  • 1 0
 Lauf Forks seem to me to have no damping and appear to be something that would not have enough travel...I havent tried them but to look at them I wouldnt think to like riding them??? any comments or answers???are they any good???
  • 1 0
 By the way shimano had in production the alfa x pedals on the Road bike gruppo back in the 80's, with a similar concept, which turned out to be the worst pedal ever, due to the awkward loading on the bearing they didn't last long, nevertheless i have one on a vintage centurion. You can't change it, because the eye is bigger on the crankarm, compared to the standard, because the bearings were bigger.... Long lasting standards are Good!
  • 1 0
 it sounds like dual control would have helped beginners understand which levers shifted up and which shifted down on 2x and 3x systems. There are so many new riders who are confused by the fact that the left and right shifters behave completely opposite. A lot of people still don't shift because they're either scared to, or confused. Granted, it's not confusing to us because we have adapted, and because we understand how the springs and cables work. But it's definitely a barrier for a lot of new riders.
  • 1 0
 Bionicon Bikes. The adjustable geometry/travel at the push of a button makes one bike go from DH confident geometry to aggressive XC billy goat climbing mode. Sunk by terrible damping and general non-availability. Still see them at Eurobike every year, but I have never seen one in the wild except for the demo I tried about 10 years ago. Still remember what an amazing idea it was let down by what I'm sure are a lack of development and resources.
  • 1 0
 Last year I resurrected my 2004 Spec Enduro, upgraded to single ring, dropper post, some fat carbon rims. And still has the stock Dual Control and Rapid Rise. I love it! Use this rig on silly local stuff as it feels like a BMX compared to my 2017 S-Works Enduro, but that RR and DC combo is so logical. The whole contaminated housing gripe was for slobs who can't keep any of their stuff nice, let alone what was the top of line MTB tech. Even when it was new I upgraded the cables with sleeves between stops and a bootie down at the deraillure, sealed end to end. Really not so hard when you think about it. When I replaced the cables and housings after all this time, running the cable through a towel left nothing but the teflon grease I originally injected the housings with. Basically brand new and didn't actually need to be replaced. And yea, I rode a lot in NE mud and shyte. Sometimes the wisdom of masses is kind of the exact opposite.

All that said, when I adjust my brain to my modern Eagle, then hop on the jalopy, takes me a mile or two to reprogram. Figure it'll stave off the dementia. :-D
  • 1 0
 I like centrelock. It is very quick to remove a rotor to pack wheels in a bike bag for flying etc, and I've never noticed any play or loosening. I just keep the spanner in the bike bag.
  • 5 1
 2011+ Avid CODES, best brakes ever, ever! Still see them in WC today!
  • 4 1
 The opposite of this: Awful Taste but Great Execution www.reddit.com/r/ATBGE
  • 2 9
flag IllestT (Feb 15, 2018 at 12:56) (Below Threshold)
 That brings me to Shimano cup and cone hubs. A really bad idea that they STILL persevere with. So much so that they've designed it to be almost good, except it never will be as good as cartridge bearings hubs that cost half as much
  • 8 1
 @IllestT: There are really, really good reasons for hubs to spin on cup and cone setups, though. Cartridge bearings aren't the best choice for the job, but they can be trouble-free which is a good thing.
  • 3 0
 @IllestT: wot? shimano hubs are the cheapest. And maybe they're not the highest performance ones, but cup and cone reliability is undeniable. Any play? just thighten the cone. Boom!
  • 3 4
 @mikelevy: NO! I used to work in a bike shop and cup and cone hubs are what made me leave!!!
  • 2 5
 @mikelevy: I guess cup'n'cone hubs may work in some parts of the world, but you'll almost never find them on a British bike worth more than a grand.
They just can't take this climate, especially not here in the Peak District where I live
  • 2 0
 @IllestT: no way. I have a set of Dura-Ace hubs that still feel perfect after 20,000+ miles, including in all types of terrible weather. Rebuild them for $.50 in ball bearings and back to perfect.

Cartridge hubs are lighter and somewhat easier to work with (most don’t have adjustable preload), but if you want long term durability, cup and cone is the way to go.
  • 2 1
 @scofflaw23: I don't really see how road bike components somehow prove their worthiness for mtb?
I use cup'n'cone hubs on road bike too - absolutely fine.

Off road in the Peak District? They last maybe 2 rides
  • 1 0
 @scofflaw23: Old Mavic hubs had sealed bearings with preload, add a decent ball bearing most are rated for 200,000 hours.

You will never have to replace them, still have some 30+ yrs old and perfect.

They also made a Sealed cartridge BB for road bikes, but you had to chamfer the threads with a special tool, that to lasted forever.

Get the design right and sealed bearings will outlast all of us, seems like the engineers are slipping of late.
  • 1 1
 Peddle bearings in the crank seems sketchy due to the high overhead load on the bearings. The heavy tapered roller bearings needed for reliability don't seem worth it. Rapid rise always made more sense to me but I have always used sram because that's what my bikes came with.
  • 3 0
 Kona magic link Can't say it doesn't do what it says on the tin. With a few side effects.
  • 1 0
 Ha ha I had a Cadabra as my first real bike. That Magic Link had to be set juuuust right. And even then it wore out every six months or so.
  • 3 1
 The dude who dreamed it up now runs Tantrum Cycles, their bike is a much refined take on Magic Link that doesn't pogo you into the trees without warning.
  • 2 1
 @MrFogg:
Agreed has to be just right or it's s*#t.
G3 linkage and the air shock seems to much better touch wood. Stll use my old cadabra. Nostalgia.
Makes me want to try a tantrum
  • 3 2
 Yes, bring it back with modern geo on a lighter bike. The new 'missing link' tantrum bike has a falling suspension curve and dated geo/industrial design.
  • 2 0
 @Fix-the-Spade: my Cadabra launched me off the bike on a step up one time, knocked me out cold and broke both arms. I went into the ground like a lawn dart ha ha
  • 2 0
 Dual control shifters had a second life as bodged Road STI's!
Hydraulic Road bike brakes before they were even born.

You're welcome x)
  • 3 0
 Those pedals with bearings from RC cars mentioned in the article, hello RaceFace with your Atlas pedals.
  • 2 0
 Everyone is guilty, though. Flat pedal design is a slave to body thickness, bearing location, and weight.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: shame point one racing pedals never caught on too well, I have a set and they have 3 normal RC car bearings in them and a larger one at the axle end, so unlike most others, you have distributed load. Last for ages and run mint. DU bushings work, but always have play...
  • 2 0
 @cunning-linguist: Can't stand DU bushing in pedals, especially when the tolerances are too tight.
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy: I've been thinking about those old flypaper pedals. It seems that to land a bigger bearing inside the crankarm, you would be just making the crank arm longer. While its not a big as having a thick pedal, the bottoms of all my cranks would tell you I hit them plenty. I've been wondering if you could get away with a bigger bearing seated inside the crankarm, them have something similar to the flypapers, but they would not be concentric on the axle, which would allow you to have the bottom of your pedal be level with the bottom of the crankarm. However, it probably won't work because you might try to use it upside down and flop your foot off.

Good design problem!
  • 4 0
 @mikelevy: The bearing location is exactly the problem in moving the bearings to the cranks. There's a good reason why many maufacturers use DU bushings on the crankside and bearings on the outside, the bushing takes big hits and high loads much better than the bearings, especially when you consider the lever you apply on the bushing/bearing, which gets longer, when moving the bearing/bushing to the crank. From an engineers point of view, bearings in the cranks are the worst working (when keeping out the added flexibility in shaping the platform) and most expensive solution, as you need to use different types of bearings, which will take the load at least for some time.
  • 5 0
 I-Beam ?
  • 3 0
 I love the idea of I-Beam, but dropper posts and the I-Beam interface made sure it wouldn't catch on. There was/is an adapter, of course, but it's a hokey way to do it.
  • 4 0
 Balsa BB7, great frame. Massively underrated
  • 1 0
 Cannondale Force 40 Braking system, version 1. As included on my first mtb, the very rigid blue M700. Worked great. Took hours to set up right. And then you still have to adjust cantilever pads...
  • 2 0
 I seem to recall a shifting system that used 2 cables on the rear derailleur. That was a poor solution to a problem that didn't exist.
  • 1 0
 I bought my first mountain bike including Dual Control in 2005, a simple hard tail. I downgraded that bike a long time ago as my commuter bike, the DC is great in the city and still going strong.
  • 1 0
 T.H.E branded and Kayabusa produced dual crown forks. Around '99-2000. Way ahead of their time! Extremely supple, far more so than the Marzocchi's of the time! Problem was they were about double the price of anything else.
  • 3 0
 I’m not sure if anyone has noticed but mist WC DH racers are now wearing skinsuits disguised as moto kits.
  • 1 0
 I used an XTR dual control on my commuter bike for a few years. Worked bloody well for commuting and the odd random bit where the road is essentially a dirt walking track, oh and for climbing steep hills. Nothing else more.
  • 1 0
 No love for the tire inserts huh @mikelevy? I´m super pumped on trying those. Anybody have personal experience of Cushcore i.e.?
  • 4 0
 1.5" head tubes.
  • 2 1
 Second gen dual control XT hydro had been very ergonomic and worked great when paired with regular Shadow derailleurs that came out at that time.
  • 2 0
 Indeed. My favorite winter bike setup.
  • 5 3
 142 Hub, manufacturers screwed everyone since it had same flange spacing at 135s and was only corrected as boost 148!!
  • 3 0
 Shimano Airlines. No just kidding
  • 2 0
 I wanted it so, so bad.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Fun to play with. A #pita to work with!
  • 2 0
 @ridestuff: Never had a chance to tinker with it - I was too young at the time to get my hands on that stuff - but I'd sure as hell love to have an Airlines setup now, even if it's not a realistic thing to use day-in and day-out.
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: I tried it, very quickly. Insane
KA-PSCHHHIT
  • 4 0
 Sofa saddles on dh bikes
  • 2 0
 Yes! I had a sweet Tioga couch on my Giant ATX DH bike. The extra leverage crushed and bent the rails every other day, though.
  • 1 0
 They were insanely comfy though for a bike you barely sat on , and the old Club Roost saddles were also great on the xc bikes@mikelevy:
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy: Tioga DH Sofa = crushed balls and thigh sores.
  • 2 0
 @sewer-rat: @mikelevy: do either of you remember the GT prototype DH bike (pre-i-drive) that had no 'saddle', but a long cushioned top-tube similar to a motocross bike? I only ever say the photo in print.
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: Yeah coz we all cornered sitting down.... Not...
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: yes I do!! How alien is that now
  • 2 0
 @iamamodel: yeah just about when it started going moto, remember that Scott in about 2004 with the Murica paint job Salute
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: That thing was mind-blowing back when I first saw it. Ugh, back when we wanted to pretend we were all riding motorbikes.
  • 3 0
 @iamamodel: bwaaaaarrrrppp
  • 3 0
 The movie "The Rise Of Enduro"
  • 3 0
 Who killed Power Straps? Shimano with their fancy clipless pedals.
  • 2 0
 Check out Ynot. They do a great power strap. You can even get a custom design! www.ynotmade.com/en/shop/pedalstrap
  • 2 1
 Those break shifters were one of the dumber innovations in MTB history. As if a tidy cockpit is anywhere near being worth the chance of braking or shifting by mistake.
  • 1 1
 I have dual control on 2 bikes, a commuter and my mtb. It doesn't need to be confined to xc only once you get a feel for it. I like how it works and how clean it keeps the cockpit looking. YMMV.
  • 1 0
 It was a good idea giving this edit some love: www.pinkbike.com/video/483246

Only giving it a VOD was poor execution of appreciation.
  • 1 0
 i think the extra leverage on the peddle bearing outweighs its larger diameter. would love to see some tests but im willing to bet their weaker and last less long.
  • 1 0
 Shimano Biopace oval chainrings ,late 80's, ahead of it's time and dropped fairly quickly.reincarnated by Rotor and used by all the road teams.
  • 1 0
 I loved my rapid rise XTR derailleur. It shifted better when shifting was actually needed and I had ZERO issues with reversing my brain to use it.
  • 6 3
 Pressfit BB
  • 37 2
 That is a bad idea executed poorly.
  • 7 1
 @Axxe: lololol. couldn't agree more.. thanks again bike industry for a solution to a problem we didn't have.
  • 5 0
 Agreed! If the exact same bike came in pressfit or threaded which would you choose? I guess 99% of people who work on their own bikes would choose threaded. Bike companies chose manufacturing simplicity over customer value
  • 11 2
 I've had far more noise issues with threaded BBs than Pressfit setups, including bikes that I've had for multiple years. I think the execution/tolerances of Pressfit can sometimes be an issue, but fixing noisy threaded BB's was the most common job during my 10+ years as a mechanic.

I can't argue that I'd far prefer to work on a threaded BB than a Pressfit system, though.
  • 1 0
 @erik2k10: I would pay extra to have the same bike with a BSA bb.
  • 7 0
 @erik2k10: I'd like to press fit a baseball bat into the arse of whoever thought that was a good idea!
  • 2 0
 @erik2k10: Yep, even though I really like all the numbers on the new Capra I won't touch it because of that BB. Such a shame.
  • 7 1
 I really have no idea where the PF hate comes from. Lost count of bikes I've had with both threaded and PF and I've only had to replace one PF bearing/cup. Not a sound ever with 4000-6000 kms of dirt a year. As for threaded, I swear a quarter of the time in my garage was working on the BB. Maybe it is the gravity bikes that suffer...
  • 6 0
 @iamamodel: Exactly! Also, everyone forgets that a threaded BB uses sealed bearings pressed into cups. Sure, those cups thread into the frame, but I've seen that bearing/cup interface make noise as well.
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy: you shouldn't have to use a punch to replace a pressfit bb at the risk of destroying your frame. Threaded BB, so simple to replace..
  • 2 0
 @Beez177: Or even destroying the press-in cups, especially when they're plastic like Shimano uses. Just because I'm taking them out, doesn't mean they're garbage. I might want to reuse them!
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy: " the industry" want you to buy new not reuse!
  • 3 0
 @mikelevy: I was using Shimano BBs last 25 years and they worked just fine. Square taper, octalink, outboard..

And Spanish BB in BMX.

Those few times I strayed away, GXP, ISIS, 30mm, pressfit - it was all crap.

Stay with 24mm Shimano, and all will be good. I hope this new 29mm option from SRAM will be reliable as well.
  • 2 1
 @mikelevy: true dat, so many people don't even think about about it because they just toss the cups as well when the bearing has had it.

Threaded BBs are a boon for the unskilled mechanic without a bearing press, but don't have any inherent mechanical benefit over press-fit bearings.
  • 1 0
 Well, im going into the thrid year now with my first PF BB. Haven't heard a peep from it, so far i'm impressed. Earlier experiences with octalink and those four sided BBs were dreadful, HT2 was okay but not flawless.
  • 3 1
 We need those rims! I would never get a pinch flat again.
  • 1 2
 Agreed. The skin suits would probrably make crash because I’d be too focused on what other people are thinking of me to focuse on the trail. But these rims are awsome! I mean it would suck to get the tires on and off, but at least I’d be able to go riding without worrying about wether or not I have an extra tube on me. Yes I would rather have tubeless but I’d get these just because they are cheaper than going tubeless.
  • 2 0
 I loved my xtr rapid rise, so easy to shift...but there’s always one Wink
  • 1 0
 XTR rapid rise was awesome, and I could always find a cheap one around from someone who hated it.
  • 2 0
 @mikelevy how about FOX teraalogic
  • 2 0
 Magura wireless suspension lockout.
  • 2 1
 Lockouts and pedal-assists are crutches.
  • 1 0
 I have Rapod Rise on my Nomad, and Dual Controls on my touring bike - and I love it.
  • 3 0
 Steering damper.
  • 1 0
 oh that's right they were all the rage for awhile.
  • 2 0
 Bar ends. Never understood those things.
  • 2 0
 Well back in the 90's, Girvin Flex stems. Not even a good idea I guess...
  • 1 0
 And bear trap pedals + shin pads combo in full lycra!
  • 3 0
 4x racing...
  • 1 0
 @mikelevy Shimanos Direct mount rear derailleur mounting point is the obvious way to negate todays 42-46t cassettes
  • 2 0
 how about gripshift bass worm?
  • 1 0
 Wow! I had that and coupled with a bullet brothers derailleur tensioner and the rollamajig = shifting heaven.
  • 1 0
 I still don´t understand why are the rim/tire protectors like Huck Norris so bloody expensive..piece of foam, robbery
  • 1 0
 LOVED my dual controls. Still have them in a box. May even put them on a bike....
  • 1 0
 React Suspension by Naild. Seems to be great, but it has become quite silent around the final bikes.
  • 2 0
 Hhhmm, most reviews have been pretty positive about it. The time that I spent on it was eye-opening, too. I think it's appearance, at least in its current form, puts some people off.
  • 1 0
 You must be kidding about dual control and rapid rise. Just bat shit crazy about that shit. Bat shit crazy.
  • 1 0
 Those pedals are quite intriguing if I do say so myself.
  • 4 4
 Good ideas executed poorly? Based on that I thought this article was going to focus on PinkBike's comments section.
  • 1 0
 Bring back the Velocipede and the bone shaker!!!
  • 2 1
 I liked dual control. Thought it worked well, even in technical terrain.
  • 1 0
 The THE rim DNA lives on with Stan's Hugo carrying on the torch.
  • 2 0
 I loved Rapid Rise.
  • 1 0
 I for one LOVED Rapid Rise.
  • 3 0
 Same here. For 2x and 3x drivetrains, it also made sense because you shifted the same way for easier/harder gearing on both front and rear. I rode XTR Rapid Rise until this year, when the jump to a new ride and 1x10 meant I was back to "normal" shifting. Took me about one ride for to get used to it the new direction.
  • 1 0
 @TyPierce: Exactly. The gearing made sense before 1x drivetrains.
  • 2 0
 Giants Overdrive 2
  • 1 0
 David Bowie. That's always been his thing.
  • 1 0
 AOL Keyword
  • 1 0
 Elastomers
  • 1 0
 Fail: I-drive
  • 1 0
 I-beam saddles.
  • 1 1
 SPD Pedals. No idea why they are still around!
  • 10 12
 SRAM drivetrain, excuted poorly, but people ate it up! But their Marketing was brilliant!
  • 2 4
 Fail: 29 DH bikes!
  • 2 5
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