Guerrilla Gravity's Less Expensive, US-Made Carbon Frame
This sport ain't cheap. Sure, we're getting more and more bike for our bucks as each year goes by, but the dream machines at the top of the want-list are usually carbon and usually pricey. Want a Trek Remedy or Yeti SB100 frame? That'll be $3,299 USD and $3,800, please, or you can get an S-Works Stumpjumper 29 frame for $3,200. Yeah, Giant's Reign Advanced rings up at only $2,625 with a DVO shock, but you get the picture: If you want a carbon frame, the price tag is probably going to start with a '3' more often than not. And those examples - or nearly any example you can think of - are all born in Asia. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Oh, you want a US-made carbon frame? No problem; just send Alchemy $3,999 USD for your Arktos patriot-mobile and brace for a barrage of dentist jokes from your buddies. Shoutout to Ibis for making their size-small front triangle in the US (and selling it for the same price as their Asian-made frames), but it's slim pickings otherwise.
All of which makes the $2,440 USD price tag (w/ a RockShox Deluxe RT shock) for Guerrilla Gravity's US-made carbon frame look pretty damn impressive. So, how the hell can a relatively tiny company out of Colorado, a company that had, up until recently, little to no experience with carbon fiber, offer a frame that's made in America for a thousand bucks less than what we see coming out of Asia?
The answer lies with robots, some out-of-the-box thinking, a lot of hard work, and a bit of luck. Guerrilla Gravity is calling it their Revved Carbon Technology, and it refers to both the materials and methods being used to manufacture their new frames.
Oh, you want a US-made carbon frame? No problem; just send Alchemy $3,999 USD for your Arktos patriot-mobile and brace for a barrage of dentist jokes from your buddies. Shoutout to Ibis for making their size-small front triangle in the US (and selling it for the same price as their Asian-made frames), but it's slim pickings otherwise.
All of which makes the $2,440 USD price tag (w/ a RockShox Deluxe RT shock) for Guerrilla Gravity's US-made carbon frame look pretty damn impressive. So, how the hell can a relatively tiny company out of Colorado, a company that had, up until recently, little to no experience with carbon fiber, offer a frame that's made in America for a thousand bucks less than what we see coming out of Asia?
The answer lies with robots, some out-of-the-box thinking, a lot of hard work, and a bit of luck. Guerrilla Gravity is calling it their Revved Carbon Technology, and it refers to both the materials and methods being used to manufacture their new frames.
The Ingredients
There's a decent chance that the carbon frame in your garage is made with Toray T700 or something similar, a relatively common type of carbon that can be bought by bike companies in large amounts. Today's carbon works pretty well, too, aside from it being a bit delicate when it comes to getting hit with pointy things and a bit expensive when it comes to buying a new one. But overall, it's arguably the best option right now if you want to build a lightweight and strong frame.
Guerrilla Gravity, that pint-sized outfit best known for their reasonably priced aluminum frames, says that they have something better, though.
A US-made carbon frame for less than what comes out of Asia? Guerrilla Gravity is doing exactly that with their Revved carbon production.
Thanks to the resin they're using during manufacturing, they claim that their frame is a whopping 300-percent "tougher" when it comes to impact strength. That's a hell of a lot of percents in an industry where an increase of just a few points calls for a bunch of new acronyms. It also begs the question of how a comparatively small company managed to get their paws on this stuff before a larger brand with more resources threw a truckload of money at it.
It turns out there's a plane-building company called Boeing - you may have heard of them - that's been using this stuff for a few years to build large and important portions of their new 787 Dreamliner, but it's only recently become available for others to make things out of.
Guerrilla Gravity freely admits that they happened to be in the right place at the right time to come across these vital ingredients, but it wasn't simply a matter of plug and play; they hired a new composites engineer and spent plenty of time experimenting with different fiber orientation and types.
Originally, they had short-strand fiber that could be purchased in large sheets and then laid down into the mold, but those early prototypes didn't cut the mustard when it came to the frame's rigidity.
The answer took much more work, a lot of trial and error, and a different type of long-strand US-sourced carbon that was mixed with the much stronger resin.
Originally, they had short-strand fiber that could be purchased in large sheets and then laid down into the mold, but those early prototypes didn't cut the mustard when it came to the frame's rigidity.
The answer took much more work, a lot of trial and error, and a different type of long-strand US-sourced carbon that was mixed with the much stronger resin.
I reviewed the alloy Smash last year and loved it, but Guerrilla Gravity is stopping production of all aluminum frames.
Guerrilla Gravity can now "cook" a frame in just thirty minutes and at a much, much higher temperature thanks to that special resin. For reference, they said that a traditional carbon frame can take three to four hours to cook, and while theirs comes out of the mold needing only minor sanding and love, the normal process could call for a lot of hands-on work to turn it into a finished product.
Molds can cost a lot of money so Guerrilla Gravity made their own, as you do.
Also, because the resin can handle much higher temps, they can go with a more durable powder-coat finish for their carbon frames. That's supposed to be better for the environment, too, and the whole thing is said to be far safer for everyone involved.
The process ended up being so forward-thinking that Guerrilla Gravity won a $250,000 USD grant through the Advanced Industries Grant Program that's run by the Colorado Office of Economic Development and International Trade. Serious stuff, especially when it had only ever been awarded to companies in the aerospace, bioscience, and renewable energy industries up until now.
The Method
Did you know that essentially every carbon fiber mountain bike frame is made by hand? If you walked into a carbon frame-making facility, you'd see a bunch of people laying down hundreds of different and precisely cut small sheets of carbon in a very specific way before sending the puzzle off to be baked in the mold.
It's a time-consuming process, and because human hands are involved, human error can be as well.
You know what doesn't make silly human errors? Robots, of course. ''Using automated fiber placement for the majority of the layup process, we’re able to reduce labor time by approximately 80% while also ensuring quality consistency from one frame to the next,'' says Guerrilla Gravity. That's pretty much all they'd say about the secretive process, but a quick search of the Google brings up plenty of giant robot arms covered in spools of carbon fiber, so it's probably safe to assume that it's along those lines but smaller.
The machine is also bespoke to Guerrilla Gravity, I'm told, which no doubt cost them a pretty penny to set up.
You know what doesn't make silly human errors? Robots, of course. ''Using automated fiber placement for the majority of the layup process, we’re able to reduce labor time by approximately 80% while also ensuring quality consistency from one frame to the next,'' says Guerrilla Gravity. That's pretty much all they'd say about the secretive process, but a quick search of the Google brings up plenty of giant robot arms covered in spools of carbon fiber, so it's probably safe to assume that it's along those lines but smaller.
The machine is also bespoke to Guerrilla Gravity, I'm told, which no doubt cost them a pretty penny to set up.
While they won't share photos of how the carbon is applied, it's likely that Guerrilla Gravity has employed some sort of robotic arm that does most of the work.
Automated fiber placement has been around for a handful of years now, mostly in the aerospace sector, but Guerrilla Gravity says that using that method to construct hollow, 3D tubes wasn't something that had been done before. That's the secret, patent-pending part, and it required them to investigate new bladder and mold techniques to make it a viable process.
Once the mold is bolted shut it's slid into the Frame Maker 3000 that, you guessed it, Guerrilla Gravity built themselves. Handy folks.
Once the robot has done its thing and the mold is closed, it's off to get cooked in by their 'Frame Maker 3000' machine, a job that takes just thirty minutes rather than hours and hours. The frame that emerges on the other end is then touched up by hand as required before being sent off to be powder-coated. What comes out is said to weigh 6.5lb without a shock, so while it's not the lightest frame around, it's also not the heaviest either.
1 Frame, 4 Models
Being a relatively small outfit has its advantages - being able to switch your entire range from one frame material to another, for example - but as any small business owner will tell you, it helps if you can outsmart your better-funded competition.
Let's pretend that you're a bike company who sources your frames from overseas. The traditional route would be to take an educated guess as to how many frames you're going to sell in all three or four sizes and then place one or two whopper-sized orders each year. If you think that sounds risky, it's because it most definitely is; it's also why you often see those "year end" or "overstock" sales. In contrast to that, Guerrilla Gravity does something they call "Just In Time" manufacturing that's exactly as it sounds: Because they're manufacturing their own frames in-house, they get to decide how many to make and when to make them.
By swapping out seatstays and, in some cases the shock, they're able to share one front triangle between four different models.
The other thing they're doing is a "Modular Frame Platform" that sees a single front triangle used across four different models (and both 27.5 and 29'' wheels) that sit at 120mm, 145mm, 155mm, and 165mm of rear wheel travel. Each model uses its own seatstay kit, and you'll need a different shock for certain configurations, but it's a clever way to do it that certainly saves Guerrilla Gravity some money.
It wasn't that long ago that Specialized got a lot of grief for using the same front triangle for their 27.5'' and 29'' platforms, so it'll be interesting to see how Guerrilla Gravity's approach is received.
The rear-end is aluminum and still made in-house. Each seatstay kit is designed with a different leverage ratio in mind, thereby tuning the suspension to better suit the available travel.
The seatstay tuning kits, which include all the hardware and require only a 5mm and 6mm hex key to install, go for $445 USD, and the idea is that a customer could pick up what he or she needs to effectively have a second bike built for a different purpose. That price doesn't include a different shock, of course, but they'll sell you one of those, too. The idea makes sense on paper, for sure, but I've still never met anyone who swapped between wheel sizes a few years back when that was a "selling feature." Also, you'll need a longer-travel fork for drastic changes, so it's not like the investment will be small. Maybe I'm out to lunch, though, so let me know what you think in the comment section.
The frame comes with a nifty adjustable headset as well, with an insert up top that can be rotated to give you 10mm of reach adjustment and a lower cup that be had with 0mm or 15mm of rise to compensate for a different wheel size.
An insert at the top of the headtube lets you tinker with reach by 10mm, while 0mm and 15mm high lower cups tune head angle and handlebar height.
Guerrilla Gravity also deserves some kudos for encouraging people to tinker with their setup, even going so far as to describe certain combos that they've found to work well. There's the MegaSmash that rocks a 170mm, 29” front end combined with a 165mm-travel, 27.5’’ rear end. Or the Madd Dogg that gets 120mm front and back, 27.5’’ wheels, and a 0mm lower cup that probably adds up to one hoot of a bike.
You get the picture, and if you end up with one of their bikes and are curious if a certain combination will work or not, there's even a forum, or you can just call them up.
The 120mm/130mm Trail Pistol setup was my preference, and the 'Plush' and 'Crush' modes offer two very distinct rear-suspension options.
The frame can be had in four different "standard" configurations, each listed below, and you can get them in three different trim options. Ride 2 starts at $3,695 to $3,795 USD, Ride 1 will cost you $4,595 USD, and the top-end Race model sells for $5,695 to $5,995. Guerrilla Gravity will let you upgrade or downgrade parts as you see fit, too, so you can spring for the baller suspension and carbon wheels, but save some money by going with an entry-level drivetrain. Again, not only are you not locked into a certain model, you're not even locked into a certain spec.
A small chip at the rearward shock mount (left) lets you change between 'Plush' and 'Crush' modes without altering the geometry. The latter is quite a bit firmer feeling, while the former offers a more forgiving ride. That bolt-on loop (right) is for your Velcro strap to go through, or you can mount a small water bottle below the shock.
Smash
• Travel: 145mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.5''
• 64.6° HTA
• 76.8° STA
• Travel: 145mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.5''
• 64.6° HTA
• 76.8° STA
Megatrail
• Travel: 155 - 165mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 64.5° - 65° HTA
• 77.2° STA
• Travel: 155 - 165mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 64.5° - 65° HTA
• 77.2° STA
Trail Pistol
• Travel: 120mm
• Fork travel: 130mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 65.9° HTA
• 78.2° STA
• Travel: 120mm
• Fork travel: 130mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 65.9° HTA
• 78.2° STA
Shred Dogg
• Travel: 130 - 140mm
• Fork travel: 150mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.8''
• 65.8° HTA
• 78.2° STA
• Travel: 130 - 140mm
• Fork travel: 150mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.8''
• 65.8° HTA
• 78.2° STA
What does all the mean? The material and methods that Guerrilla Gravity is using allow them to build their carbon fiber frames in much less time and with much less labor required, which means a less expensive finished product. It's said to yield a considerably stronger frame, too, and one that's takes less of a toll on the environment to produce.
Less expensive, stronger, and made in the US to boot... This Revved thing sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? It certainly does, but it also really does look like Guerrilla Gravity is about to take the leap from what is essentially a small but much-loved cult brand to something that could have a much, much larger impact.
Less expensive, stronger, and made in the US to boot... This Revved thing sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? It certainly does, but it also really does look like Guerrilla Gravity is about to take the leap from what is essentially a small but much-loved cult brand to something that could have a much, much larger impact.
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Weight is the other reasons: 6.5 pounds with no shock makes this a pretty heavy "carbon" frame. Hopefully the weight is the frame complete not just the front triangle.
All evil frames, which are complete carbon Fibre, weigh over 2.9 kilos. And the heavy hitters from yt or Santa are not a lot lighter. Thus this weight is great. The vitus CRX frames go the same route with alloy rear end and come at 2800 grams in M.
Seriously GG just make this frame aluminum (and keep them in stock!) and I doubt you'll have any problems.
Almost bought an alu Jeffsy - out of stock
Almost bought an alu Whyte - out of stock
Best option out right now - Alu Canondale Habit
What could have been THE best option - Guerrilla Gravity new Smash - If it was Alu....
now don't get me wrong, i'm super stoked that GG is making a carbon frame here in denver. i think its awesome, and i hope their innovations spur the competition from the other brands.
The pricing discussion here is a bit odd. MSRP (or market price) is really not dependent on the cost to make the frame. The price for a carbon frame is set by the market. This is why you see a number of carbon frames all priced roughly the same, about $3.3K. The cost determines company's margin. I'm guessing SC, Trek, Yeti, etc. make a 50% margin (FOB) on their frames at wholesale. If wholesale is 50% off MSRP, a frame costs about 800-900 for a company to make (obviously there are shipping, admin, overhead costs not included). I'd be interested, once the initial investment is discounted, if GG is doing it for 500-600 with shorter lead times and more capacity.
Anyway, congrats to GG. Seems like really great innovation for such a small company. Definitely a bike I'll take a look at in the future.
This is what alot of people lose sight of when we think about manufacturing and jobs in the US. Its automation that is by far the largest contributor to manufacturing job loss in the US, not jobs lost overseas. Unfortunately as a country we are still trying to hold onto the past and I feel like we are woefully under prepared for the the future. We need to start thinking about how to train the future workforce for the jobs that will exist in 30 years, not the ones that existed 30 years ago.
I would be surprised if they were super expensive in the US. Even over here, in the land of YT, well specced Banshee complete bikes are not much more expensive than YT.
Which is awesome because there is now 10x more stuff available. And if there is one thing people want all the time, its more stuff!
You could probably hop on 90% of companies S/M bikes and make them work. Tall people end up fighting an XL to make it fit.
I appreciate companies like GG/Pole/Mondraker pushing the geo norms because it makes bikes actually work for tall people.
My add to this would be expenses/overhead costs are probably very significant when you consider the quality of marketing, r&D, and employee benefits most of these companies probably take on.
The idea that the "markup" from COG to MSRP determines profit and implies the greed of bike companies is hilarious. Especially since I'm not sure anyone here has actually seen a recent P/L from a big (or small) bike company.
The other thing these machines do is drive down prices. This is not just going to affect Guerilla Gravity. If others want to compete, then they will have to devise a manufacturing strategy that will bring their costs down, too. Or slash costs for less of a profit margin, or whatever. This is good for us as riders.
For GG, this could be the start of something big -- manufacturing frames for other companies, in much the same way Giant makes frames for certain companies. That raises labor demand, too.
Now you can say, "What about the welders who aren't making aluminum bikes anymore?" Well, I would argue that GG's decision to go carbon was in response to market demand. If the market demand for aluminum bikes is diminishing (and it is, regardless of what some hardcore holdouts commenting here have to say), then who's to say GG could continue to compete? And if they can't compete, keeping welders employed is moot. There wouldn't be a company to employ the welders.
This is innovation. And it's great news.
My point was more big picture, about manufacturing as a whole, and that ultimately, across all industries, automation is going to continue to cost alot of manufacturing jobs and that's what we need to prepare for. Innovation is good, but you have to be aware of and prepare for all aspects of what implementing it means. Yes, someone has to program, run, repair the machines, and those are jobs, but the number of people required for those jobs is always going to be significantly less that they amount of people those machines are ultimately replacing. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to automate in the first place. The reason its done is because of how efficient it is.
p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories/2019/01/30/max_Megatrail_196626.jpg?1548897603
Small megatrail seat tube is now 15.35". Not too many frames much shorter than that other than Knolly and Ibis.
Now, do I sell the Wreck and recoup some of the cost or slap a 180 fork on and turn it into a dedicated park monster?
Also Intense and Turner haven't made their bikes in the US since going to carbon.
Don't forget that is all covered with money made between landed costs and wholesale costs, then a lot of that stuff has to be covered again by the dealer.
Point being, a company doesn't pay a grand for a bike, sell it for three and clear two. Add in a middle man and you make maybe half that then pay for all those other things and you have way less in hand than you would think.
I have to confess, this is the first lengthy front page video interview that I have actually watched in its entirety, purely because it was interesting and made a lot of sense!
good job G.G!
Check-out the latest earnings reports on outdoor brands (w/o any military contracts), it's not like the operating margins are 40% or something. They are pretty reasonable...
seems a little contrived to compare a small company to Santa Cruz, never mind the pharmaceutical industry. i feel totally fine with those guys making enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and grow a reputable brand.
fixing inflated prices requires EVERYONE to buy cheaper bikes, not just dentists.
Obviously that would put a bit of a damper on the breakthrough factor but still really cool even if it costs as much.
The time benefits do seem to make sense that it should cost less though.
Just my two cents.
Amen! Well said.
For starters, mountain bikes are "wants" not "needs". Secondly, it's as good as a "perfect" market that you're going to find anywhere in that there is an absolute plethora or brands and customers who have no market power and the industry is not subject to overt market distorting regulation meaning you get as pure a case of price formation as possible in a free market.
It's not even like demand for mountain bikes is inelastic (like oil for example) meaning people need to buy it no matter the price.
Pricing for mountain bike frames is as balanced a market as you are going to find anywhere. Pricing is not a function of cost. Whilst knowledge and appreciation of manufacturing/materials and consumer behaviour/influence all impact individual consumers differently, that is not something unique to mountain bike frames.
People pay what they are willing to pay and suppliers are willing to accept. Of course consumers always want things cheaper and suppliers always want things more expensive, the interests of both parties are served and it is very hard to argue anyone is getting a raw deal (whether you personally think so or not). It's not the case that there is some level of collusion or price fixation amongst bike brands that would cause otherwise.
My point is that the prices are entirely reasonable, fair, and the market knows far more than you in determining price.
Your perceptions of value and price reasonableness are entirely your own and a result of your knowledge, values and drivers, but just yours. You're just as much a sheep as anyone else.
these concepts are really not that hard, either. take this obsession over "markup." one's reaction has less to do with the realities of a company's cost accounting or profit goals than the behavioral response to what that speculated markup means to you as an individual. the marginal utility of $2000 is a lot to most people.
also, it's amazing how much value a retail consumer will attribute to each individual purchase they make. if you really want a bike company to respond to your wants/needs, the bike direct model is a good platform for that. so pony up and value/support companies like GG accordingly.
Take the Clarus Corp, which owns Black Diamond and Sierra Bullets where BD makes up a lot of the revenue. Their operating margin is 4.2% or an EBITDA Margin of 8%. The margin on individual products is probably in the 50% range, but there are a bunch of other costs that go into managing a company that brings their products to market.
uhm, that's exactly what it means. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. if a person willingly pays, then it is by definition reasonable.
your example of medical/pharmaceutical indistry is not a great example... when you're about to die, you dont have much of a choice... when you passed out during a heart attack, you're not going to price shop which emergency room is cheaper while in the ambulance... therefore you'll pay whatever the cost is. (thus the reason why most civilized countries have systems in place for their healthcare system(s) that mitigate this market failure issue) so obviously not the same as a consumer good like a bike...
Maybe that wasn't the best comparison, would the brand Supreme be better? People perceive this company to be valuable and will pay exorbitant prices for their stuff but in the end it doesn't add anything other than flash and clout.
If you think Carbon bikes aren't good value, there's an argument for that. However, you are just one plot on the entire demand curve that makes up the whole market. Given that carbon is becoming more popular, the market is disagreeing with you at the moment. Market's are living things, so who knows maybe it will shift more in line with your thinking in the coming years. But if we knew that, no one would be arguing on PB because we could predict the future...
m.facebook.com/groups/315034135666520?view=permalink&id=545994715903793&anchor_composer=false
Other reviews stated it clearly, and their rational: so many pieces of alluminum would have to be machined and laid into the molds for pivots that it is more practical to have alluminum stays.
Where do you get that bummer from? 20 years in home retail makes me think irds way low, prove me wrong.
Typical LBS margin on bikes around 37% overhead cost of doing business around 36%. (Gooogle, Bicycle Retailer, NBDA)
There are very few people getting rich in the bike business
Anyone can gain market penetration by offsetting costs today and taking that hit initially
One of the things driving automation is lack of a skilled labor. People simply don't want to do these jobs and are unable to do them as quickly or precisely as machines. An example of this is the medical industry. Do you want something like a catheter manufactured by a machine or handled by a person's fingers (likely ending up with carpal tunnel) in your body?
Nearly everything you touch has been produced with some level of automation today. Manual labor manufacturing is dated and is likely to never be the booming industry it once was here. IMO automation isn't to blame for loss of jobs. Manufacturing has just evolved and people haven't kept up with it (especially the countries who still offer cheap manual labor). You know what industry is actually growing that other countries are coming to us for?....Automation. Training more people in this industry and applying new technologies like GG has may be part of the answer to creating more jobs.
#CustomforLess
#RideGG
And that price...
Dear all other bike companies: shots very, very much fired.
I would like to see their AFM machine, trying to figure out how that is applied to a complex shape like a bike. Maybe they are just placing flat plys and building the stack before the roll it into a tube.
There is a lot of BS about the fiber in this article. It's starts by saying how everyone else uses T700 but they have a special resin. No mention of what fiber they are using expect it is "long strand", long and short strand only applies to injection molded reinforced plastics or SMC/BMC. Were they trying to make a bike out of chopped random orientation mat? Also everyone uses impact modified resins like Newport 301, nothing new here. If it works for Softball bats and hockey sticks it should be fine for bikes. The fragility of modern bikes has all to do with how thin they are not so much the resin and fiber.
There's been a lot of interest in thermoplastic structures for aerospace. I've seen some short fiber thermoplastic parts made from Dreamliner waste. If it's the same stuff that GG originally started with, I am not shocked that they couldn't get it to work - it's tough, but it's extremely flexible. However GG should have access to PEEK / PEKK / PPS reinforced carbon through a few different suppliers, which would give them much better stiffness properties. All of these would offer quick cycle times and high impact toughness, but require a much higher cure temperature (like 350 C) than an epoxy prepreg.
Edit: my guess for AFM is flat sheets -> preform -> mold. Nothing high tech, but it would be time saving.
I agree about the fiber discussion, I think he was trying to say they don't use chopped fiber, which is odd. Other companies (Scott off the top of my head) tout the use of T1000.
This is their patent: patents.google.com/patent/US20180264756A1/en?oq=US20180264756A1
The carbon material might be something like this: www.vectorams.com/thermoplastic-prepreg-products
Paint adhesion might be a problem with this thermoplastic material, so maybe that is why they are powder coating.
Pretty neat process. The price is certainly good and it kind of allows them to span the gap between aluminum and resin infused carbon frames, which is pretty cool. Maybe with more development time their frame weights will come down.
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This all reminds me of the Cannondale Raven which was thermoplastic woven sheets compression molded into half shells and then bonded to a magnesium spine. The bonding was the Achilles heal of this design. patents.google.com/patent/US5791673A
For the "robot" portion they could be building up their laminate schedule similar to how North Sails does it with their 3Di robot heads. Basically a thin tape that is woven precisely as needed. Have the robot build up your layup, then use a more traditional flat table fabric cutter to trim it to final shape before laying into the mold. This would save all he human labor of moving all the cut layup pieces and layup in a traditional method.
www.northsails.com/sailing/en/innovation/3di-technology
I chuckled at someone aboves comments about high temp cure....it reduces cycle times to minutes....is one advantage
Look at lots of parts from BMWs I series carbon parts
The problem they have is that they only slightly changed the game from ply by ply prepreg there's a range of technology that everyone else has just as much access to commercially it's no big secret.
That said, I love GG's approach to the modularity/build process/materials. And done in the US of A!
Will look forward to some test reviews and longterm durability results. Would love to see this catapult the industry to another, less costly, level of MTB production.
Using the robot for tape laying is an interesting one. I'm surprised it took so long because these industrial robot arms are readily available and there sure must be several companies by now that provide you with the software, fibre tensioners and all that to have this setup. I actually did my graduation project at one of these (taniq.com). Then again the difficulties I see here is that if they want to orient the fibres in line with the loads (in longitudinal direction with the tube) they are going to have to do wet lay up to make them stick in place. It is doable but it is messy as you'll have to bleed the excess resin before it cures. Or well, they may actually have a clever way to deal with that. Or they may be using pre-pregs.
Personally I'm not interested in the bike itself, simply because I'm not interested in a carbon bike. My hardtail frame is welded in the UK, my full susser is made in the US (at least it says so on the frame) so apparently that's all possible. But the process of producing these bikes is interesting. Apparently carbon frames are a big deal in the US (considering even Intense quit welding alu frames and only offers Asian made carbon frames) so if this is what it takes for US customers to buy a US made frame I suppose that's all good.
Thumbs up to GG. I would love to buy something that was made in the USA. Robots or not. At least in the USA I can watch YouTube and do a Google search. I can say the president is a wanker without getting thrown in jail. I know that the law applies to all people equally, at least in theory. I love the USA. We need more USA made stuff, or at least we need less made in China stuff. Nothing against the Chinese per se, but I hate the communist party with a passion. People should think more carefully about where there money is going and more importantly, how they are helping to shape the future.
As the Aussie prime minister said last year, there was a time when we could count on the world operating in a way that we generally agreed with. Not any longer, now that China is P.A.I.D. and it's run by a bunch of c*nts.
I just ordered a new bike from Azor last week at my local bike shop. It is fun. The two ladies who run the shop remember all (commuter/cargo) bikes me and my girlfriend have bought from them over the past nine years. They try to fix the bike same or next day and borrow me a bike to still be able to travel to work etc. That's how you win the competition against internet dealers. The Azor is a heavy commuter so it may not appeal to the PB crowd but it is really what keeps me sane. I'd go nuts if I'd commute by car or public transport. At the end of the day, this is the kind of bike I'll ride most of the time so it'd better be good. And supposedly they really are. What I like is that they also employ people with a cognitive or visual limitation (including people who are 100% blind). Seeing a western company apply the latest and greatest technology to their products may be cool. But employing people with disabilities and allow them to do the stuff they actually can do is what makes me happy. But yeah I think the frames are mostly welded in The Netherlands and Belgium. Maybe still some Taiwanese welded frames but they then finish the simple tack welds into proper welds. All painting, assembly etc is done here in The Netherlands.
I do agree that it is striking how China has so much economic power (and resources like important rare earth metals) that most western countries rather close their eyes and continue to do business with them rather than speak up against their human rights and environmental policies. Two things though. Not made in the US doesn't necessarily mean made in Asia. And made in Asia doesn't necessarily mean made in China. The other thing is that it hugely depends on the kind of product. Injection moulding, CNC machining etc are mostly automated processes so these by themselves wouldn't affect worker conditions. Actually a lot of injection moulding is done right here in Europe. Magura has a huge facility in Ulm nearby their HQ in Bad Urach (they no longer produce in Bad Urach) and they really don't want their advanced injection moulding know how to leave the country. Their Taiwanese plant does the metal stuff. Tacx over here also does all in house. It is the assembly that takes all the hard manual labour. Which is why when you buy a trainer or workstand from them you just get a plastic bag with parts and a manual. It is not doable for them to assemble all that in house. So they could either have that done in an Asian sweatshop or you could make some tea and take the time to assemble your new stuff yourself. I like that thinking. So yeah, we as consumers just need to put some thought in it. If it is an electronic device, there is most likely assembly involved which is done in a horribly noisy workshop. Carbon fibre frames is also mostly manual labour, same story. But my simple long drink glass? That's all automated. Doesn't matter where it is done. Once chemicals are involved though, you'll need to be cautious. That includes epoxy but also paint processes (including anodization of aluminium). Injection moulding of thermoplastics however doesn't give much waste. All trimmings go back into the hopper with no loss of quality. CNC companies may be proud of recycling all their swarf, but there is a lot more energy involved before it can be made into something usable whereas the waste from injection moulding can be reused on the spot.
TL
TL;DR: @jaame is right again. It isn't just about the complete products though. Even for many of the products made in a western country, raw materials are bought from questionable sources.
thats a hell of a bigoted statement *check yourself
Not to mention that its a stretch to insult an entire race's culture off a topic of bicycle mfg. these kind of far stretching correlations and blanket statements of entire groups of people are straight up ignorant - just saying man..
What better place than here, what better time than now?
Ok, that was entirely appropriate. Lol
Just wish they had a better export proposition.
You buy a Smash 145mm travel 29” with a 160mm MRP fork (relatively easily adjustable travel)
You buy a rear triangle for 120mm travel and a 120mm shock.
You now have two completely different bikes in one.
My mind is blown. Modular and “future proof”, made in USA, and at a steal of a price.
I've run mine as a 29 front 27.5x2.8 rear as well. Rips that way too!
I haven't been this intrigued over a bike launch in a long, long time.
Now, if they can just hire some better graphic designers.
Eliminating the hassles of overseas production such as quality control and order quantity should work out quite well for GG. It looks like these bikes took a massive amount of effort by GG to get where they are.
Don't get us started on the factories and production, costs us so much to get a production run done, from the qty we have to order to the fact we have to send someone over to physically watch all stages of production. Some of these factories are pure charlatans, they will use less solder, swap out parts, steal parts for their own late night productions .. they will always find ways to save money . for them, not us, QC would be non-existent - also, ripping off and IP - does not matter where you are, they will always find a way to copy.
I find it a shame that reducing labour costs is a thing - end of the day we want jobs for people, its great we are bringing production back to our own countries, but we only want to do that when we can create automated systems and not have to worry about labour costs, which was one of the main reason for going abroad in first place .. crazy
Small crew "come across" a magic aerospace material, then within a short time they invent, build and streamline several new production technologies, have themselves a custom robot build AND all of that, at first try, results in lower priced products than anyone else can offer?
There are pros to this approach, but there will also be some cons too. I mean aside from the aluminium rear triangle and cheap RS shock, which suddenly makes the comparison with Giant not look quite so stellar anymore.
Wondering if the $250,000 grant stretches far enough to knock a couple hundred bucks off the first few hundred frames once the tooling costs are covered.
Giant (and by extension all the other brands that rely on Giant for manufacturing) doesn't do this because their carbon frame manufacturing is WAY larger scale, and would take a lot of investment to implement, not to mention possibility of ITAR compliance of exporting composite stuff overseas. They have their process in place, and they make money of up-charging the carbon builds.
If GG starts massively putting a dent into carbon frames, manufacturers are going to take note and adjust. In the same way all direct order brands put a dent into LBS brand sales, so now you have Giant drop their base Trance to $2000 to keep it competitive.
As I mentioned elsewhere, GG also doesn't pay team salaries, doesn't build kids bikes or "cheap bikes", and stays pretty focused on a small product line. That's gotta save money in terms of staffing.
This wasn't magic. Those guys very hard worked for many years to make these bikes work.
In CFRP laminates, the toughness comes from the resin that bonds the layers of fibers together(which they have), but the strength and stiffness comes from those carbon fibers themselves. So in order to meet whatever strength and stiffness requirements they have, the need to have a certain amount of carbon fibers, which means a certain number of plies, and you don't want to go below that.
Given that this is a brand new carbon product, they're probably erring on the side of going to heavy, rather than running the risk of frame failures.
Props GG, Love to see you grow and get comfortable with the geometry times! Can I get a little bit more slack and steep, but made by you? Loves, the entire Westcoast!
For the first time ever, as someone living outside the States, Guerrilla Gravity are on my radar. That says something
If they use SGL fibers made in Moses Lake they would massively reduce environmental implications because the factory solely uses renewable energy. It is possible that this factory is only producing materials for BMW though...
Note that 300% tougher (impact resistance if you will) does not mean 300% stronger. Toughness is a resin dominated property, strength is fiber dominated.
I'm going for a downvoting record here..bring it on.
For example the Smash and Megatrail both have 160mm travel front, ~64.5 deg HTA, ~77 deg STA, but one has 29" wheels and the other 27.5". Won't the BB be height be vastly different between the two?
I'm not hating... Just honestly curious how that will work.
Unless there is some other trick going on that I'm missing (hence the question).
Sure the common concerns with carbon still exist, but the point is that their manufacturing process, new carbon composite, and the toughness of the frame, in addition to the fact that they are actively working towards recycling plans AND have a low cost/made in the USA, will hopefully eliminate these with the carbon they are introducing.
They look tough, and I applaud the versatility built in. As we get pickier as riders, you have brought back even more adjustability to help us find the best possible fit.
Absolute Rippers! Can't wait to demo one, let me know if you need any Moab testing done! Love Y'all, keep on killing it~
you can still do all those things tho
Also...For Sale! One somewhat slightly used 2014 Giant Anthem...
www.tencatecomposites.com/products/thermoplastic
Only last night I went on the Commencal website for example, as I'm considering the new Meta AM. There are TWO 27.5" Metas with no real high end option (the "top" model is an NX/GX build, though admittedly still nice for the price), the lower tier hasn't even got a dropper (!) and no frame only option. 29"? SEVEN builds covering all reasonable price points, coil or air, Fox or RS and three finishes available for the frame only option. Shame my choices are so limited as at 5'9" no amount of marketing is going to magically make a 29er the better bike for me.
At least Paul Aston had the guts to look from someone else's perspective in the DH bike shootout (even though he's exactly the height that warrants a 29er) and say it like it is about rider hight/wheel size. To be fair, he's also one of the only guys who really criticise bikes and set high expectations to go with stupidly high prices as he rightly points out about the Session.
Will from GG: “literally anything”
Levy: “mhmm”
The videos were awesome, nice work guys!
Now, different length chain stays for each size (especially XL) and reasonable shipping to Straya and I'm keen.
I think some frame manufacturing will come back to US/Europe from Taiwan/Asia because of flexibility/warranty issues.
I wish you great success!
So you print/sew the bike frame with a robot arm like Arevo did but instead printing two sides like a clamshell :-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvN229r0uNY#action=share
You then put each half in a mould, put the bladders in, close the mould up, heat up the mould and pressurise the bladders and vacuum the mould. The warmed up soft 3d printed frame then gets pushed to the outside and achieves a nice smooth finish just like a normal carbon part.
That's my theory anyway!
Congrats GG, the Bike and how it is made looks very interesting, you got my attention!
Either way congratus GG this is so cool to see!
Warranty is a big issue. I won't buy a carbon frame without lifetime warranty anymore. GG warranty reads like a bunch of marketing BS, and in the end appears to only be one year with crash replacement pricing after that. And there is no way I am buying a first year release from a company that has never done carbon before. That headset adjustment systems smells like a lot of creaking to me. And i bet that GG will raise their prices quickly in the next few years, to cover the huge jump in warranty claims they will see compared to aluminum.
I think all the business development grant money these guys have gotten has skewed the normal business evolution process. My prediction is GG loses their ass on carbon. Like in ten years they aren't in business any more.
Quit being dumb, un-clever, and unoriginal. Carbon bikes are carbon, aluminum bikes are aluminum.
But the bike industry in general is stupid when it comes to names, take everyone calling aluminum "alloy." Alloy just means a mix of metals and other elements to do useful things. Steel is an alloy too, as is all the titanium used in the industry, but for some reason people thing alloy = only aluminum.
Ya fixed it!
Is it work too?
Thank you. So I will try to buy Smash or Megatrail
That said, what Guerilla Gravity has done is very impressive, and we need more manufacturing talent in the USA too!
me: "Yep, that's good! Ready for testing"
Even CNC machines which are relatively robust technology as they've been around for ages require constant re-calibration and checking. This is a new technology for GG - they'll need to hire new people to run it for them (or pull old people from their previous roles and train them).
$3000 for 2-4 carbon/alu frames is much better.
*certain specs are limited to Sram drive trains and brakes
I don't want to be too negative because the process is really interesting but the resultant frame really isn't all that exciting on paper. I'm struggling to see what all the fuss is about.
But on the other hand I don't buy 1 ply toilet paper, but I still see it on the shelf when i'm at the supermarket so someone must.
I specced out a couple of bikes on their site and the built weight is very comparable to a lot of other carbon bikes.
Respect to any company that does their own manufacturing localy. It's not about patriotism, it's about using resources the best way and pays dividents for R & D, also makes for a very versatile business.