Guerrilla Gravity's Less Expensive, US-Made Carbon Frame

Jan 31, 2019
by Mike Levy  



This sport ain't cheap. Sure, we're getting more and more bike for our bucks as each year goes by, but the dream machines at the top of the want-list are usually carbon and usually pricey. Want a Trek Remedy or Yeti SB100 frame? That'll be $3,299 USD and $3,800, please, or you can get an S-Works Stumpjumper 29 frame for $3,200. Yeah, Giant's Reign Advanced rings up at only $2,625 with a DVO shock, but you get the picture: If you want a carbon frame, the price tag is probably going to start with a '3' more often than not. And those examples - or nearly any example you can think of - are all born in Asia. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Oh, you want a US-made carbon frame? No problem; just send Alchemy $3,999 USD for your Arktos patriot-mobile and brace for a barrage of dentist jokes from your buddies. Shoutout to Ibis for making their size-small front triangle in the US (and selling it for the same price as their Asian-made frames), but it's slim pickings otherwise.

All of which makes the $2,440 USD price tag (w/ a RockShox Deluxe RT shock) for Guerrilla Gravity's US-made carbon frame look pretty damn impressive. So, how the hell can a relatively tiny company out of Colorado, a company that had, up until recently, little to no experience with carbon fiber, offer a frame that's made in America for a thousand bucks less than what we see coming out of Asia?

The answer lies with robots, some out-of-the-box thinking, a lot of hard work, and a bit of luck. Guerrilla Gravity is calling it their Revved Carbon Technology, and it refers to both the materials and methods being used to manufacture their new frames.








The Ingredients

There's a decent chance that the carbon frame in your garage is made with Toray T700 or something similar, a relatively common type of carbon that can be bought by bike companies in large amounts. Today's carbon works pretty well, too, aside from it being a bit delicate when it comes to getting hit with pointy things and a bit expensive when it comes to buying a new one. But overall, it's arguably the best option right now if you want to build a lightweight and strong frame.

Guerrilla Gravity, that pint-sized outfit best known for their reasonably priced aluminum frames, says that they have something better, though.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
A US-made carbon frame for less than what comes out of Asia? Guerrilla Gravity is doing exactly that with their Revved carbon production.


Thanks to the resin they're using during manufacturing, they claim that their frame is a whopping 300-percent "tougher" when it comes to impact strength. That's a hell of a lot of percents in an industry where an increase of just a few points calls for a bunch of new acronyms. It also begs the question of how a comparatively small company managed to get their paws on this stuff before a larger brand with more resources threw a truckload of money at it.

It turns out there's a plane-building company called Boeing - you may have heard of them - that's been using this stuff for a few years to build large and important portions of their new 787 Dreamliner, but it's only recently become available for others to make things out of.

Guerrilla Gravity freely admits that they happened to be in the right place at the right time to come across these vital ingredients, but it wasn't simply a matter of plug and play; they hired a new composites engineer and spent plenty of time experimenting with different fiber orientation and types.

Originally, they had short-strand fiber that could be purchased in large sheets and then laid down into the mold, but those early prototypes didn't cut the mustard when it came to the frame's rigidity.

The answer took much more work, a lot of trial and error, and a different type of long-strand US-sourced carbon that was mixed with the much stronger resin.
Guerrilla Gravity Smash review
I reviewed the alloy Smash last year and loved it, but Guerrilla Gravity is stopping production of all aluminum frames.

Guerrilla Gravity can now "cook" a frame in just thirty minutes and at a much, much higher temperature thanks to that special resin. For reference, they said that a traditional carbon frame can take three to four hours to cook, and while theirs comes out of the mold needing only minor sanding and love, the normal process could call for a lot of hands-on work to turn it into a finished product.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Molds can cost a lot of money so Guerrilla Gravity made their own, as you do.


Also, because the resin can handle much higher temps, they can go with a more durable powder-coat finish for their carbon frames. That's supposed to be better for the environment, too, and the whole thing is said to be far safer for everyone involved.

The process ended up being so forward-thinking that Guerrilla Gravity won a $250,000 USD grant through the Advanced Industries Grant Program that's run by the Colorado Office of Economic Development and International Trade. Serious stuff, especially when it had only ever been awarded to companies in the aerospace, bioscience, and renewable energy industries up until now.




The Method

Did you know that essentially every carbon fiber mountain bike frame is made by hand? If you walked into a carbon frame-making facility, you'd see a bunch of people laying down hundreds of different and precisely cut small sheets of carbon in a very specific way before sending the puzzle off to be baked in the mold.

It's a time-consuming process, and because human hands are involved, human error can be as well.

You know what doesn't make silly human errors? Robots, of course. ''Using automated fiber placement for the majority of the layup process, we’re able to reduce labor time by approximately 80% while also ensuring quality consistency from one frame to the next,'' says Guerrilla Gravity. That's pretty much all they'd say about the secretive process, but a quick search of the Google brings up plenty of giant robot arms covered in spools of carbon fiber, so it's probably safe to assume that it's along those lines but smaller.

The machine is also bespoke to Guerrilla Gravity, I'm told, which no doubt cost them a pretty penny to set up.
n a
While they won't share photos of how the carbon is applied, it's likely that Guerrilla Gravity has employed some sort of robotic arm that does most of the work.

Automated fiber placement has been around for a handful of years now, mostly in the aerospace sector, but Guerrilla Gravity says that using that method to construct hollow, 3D tubes wasn't something that had been done before. That's the secret, patent-pending part, and it required them to investigate new bladder and mold techniques to make it a viable process.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Once the mold is bolted shut it's slid into the Frame Maker 3000 that, you guessed it, Guerrilla Gravity built themselves. Handy folks.


Once the robot has done its thing and the mold is closed, it's off to get cooked in by their 'Frame Maker 3000' machine, a job that takes just thirty minutes rather than hours and hours. The frame that emerges on the other end is then touched up by hand as required before being sent off to be powder-coated. What comes out is said to weigh 6.5lb without a shock, so while it's not the lightest frame around, it's also not the heaviest either.




1 Frame, 4 Models

Being a relatively small outfit has its advantages - being able to switch your entire range from one frame material to another, for example - but as any small business owner will tell you, it helps if you can outsmart your better-funded competition.

Let's pretend that you're a bike company who sources your frames from overseas. The traditional route would be to take an educated guess as to how many frames you're going to sell in all three or four sizes and then place one or two whopper-sized orders each year. If you think that sounds risky, it's because it most definitely is; it's also why you often see those "year end" or "overstock" sales. In contrast to that, Guerrilla Gravity does something they call "Just In Time" manufacturing that's exactly as it sounds: Because they're manufacturing their own frames in-house, they get to decide how many to make and when to make them.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
By swapping out seatstays and, in some cases the shock, they're able to share one front triangle between four different models.


The other thing they're doing is a "Modular Frame Platform" that sees a single front triangle used across four different models (and both 27.5 and 29'' wheels) that sit at 120mm, 145mm, 155mm, and 165mm of rear wheel travel. Each model uses its own seatstay kit, and you'll need a different shock for certain configurations, but it's a clever way to do it that certainly saves Guerrilla Gravity some money.

It wasn't that long ago that Specialized got a lot of grief for using the same front triangle for their 27.5'' and 29'' platforms, so it'll be interesting to see how Guerrilla Gravity's approach is received.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
The rear-end is aluminum and still made in-house. Each seatstay kit is designed with a different leverage ratio in mind, thereby tuning the suspension to better suit the available travel.


The seatstay tuning kits, which include all the hardware and require only a 5mm and 6mm hex key to install, go for $445 USD, and the idea is that a customer could pick up what he or she needs to effectively have a second bike built for a different purpose. That price doesn't include a different shock, of course, but they'll sell you one of those, too. The idea makes sense on paper, for sure, but I've still never met anyone who swapped between wheel sizes a few years back when that was a "selling feature." Also, you'll need a longer-travel fork for drastic changes, so it's not like the investment will be small. Maybe I'm out to lunch, though, so let me know what you think in the comment section.

The frame comes with a nifty adjustable headset as well, with an insert up top that can be rotated to give you 10mm of reach adjustment and a lower cup that be had with 0mm or 15mm of rise to compensate for a different wheel size.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
An insert at the top of the headtube lets you tinker with reach by 10mm, while 0mm and 15mm high lower cups tune head angle and handlebar height.


Guerrilla Gravity also deserves some kudos for encouraging people to tinker with their setup, even going so far as to describe certain combos that they've found to work well. There's the MegaSmash that rocks a 170mm, 29” front end combined with a 165mm-travel, 27.5’’ rear end. Or the Madd Dogg that gets 120mm front and back, 27.5’’ wheels, and a 0mm lower cup that probably adds up to one hoot of a bike.

You get the picture, and if you end up with one of their bikes and are curious if a certain combination will work or not, there's even a forum, or you can just call them up.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
The 120mm/130mm Trail Pistol setup was my preference, and the 'Plush' and 'Crush' modes offer two very distinct rear-suspension options.


The frame can be had in four different "standard" configurations, each listed below, and you can get them in three different trim options. Ride 2 starts at $3,695 to $3,795 USD, Ride 1 will cost you $4,595 USD, and the top-end Race model sells for $5,695 to $5,995. Guerrilla Gravity will let you upgrade or downgrade parts as you see fit, too, so you can spring for the baller suspension and carbon wheels, but save some money by going with an entry-level drivetrain. Again, not only are you not locked into a certain model, you're not even locked into a certain spec.


Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
Guerrilla Gravity Photo by Justin vanAlstyne
A small chip at the rearward shock mount (left) lets you change between 'Plush' and 'Crush' modes without altering the geometry. The latter is quite a bit firmer feeling, while the former offers a more forgiving ride. That bolt-on loop (right) is for your Velcro strap to go through, or you can mount a small water bottle below the shock.


Smash
• Travel: 145mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.5''
• 64.6° HTA
• 76.8° STA
Megatrail
• Travel: 155 - 165mm
• Fork travel: 160mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 64.5° - 65° HTA
• 77.2° STA

Trail Pistol
• Travel: 120mm
• Fork travel: 130mm
• Wheel size: 29''
• Tire clearance: 2.6''
• 65.9° HTA
• 78.2° STA
Shred Dogg
• Travel: 130 - 140mm
• Fork travel: 150mm
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Tire clearance: 2.8''
• 65.8° HTA
• 78.2° STA







What does all the mean? The material and methods that Guerrilla Gravity is using allow them to build their carbon fiber frames in much less time and with much less labor required, which means a less expensive finished product. It's said to yield a considerably stronger frame, too, and one that's takes less of a toll on the environment to produce.

Less expensive, stronger, and made in the US to boot... This Revved thing sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? It certainly does, but it also really does look like Guerrilla Gravity is about to take the leap from what is essentially a small but much-loved cult brand to something that could have a much, much larger impact.








552 Comments

  • + 295
 I never wanted carbon, now I do.
  • - 177
flag millsr4 (Jan 30, 2019 at 21:35) (Below Threshold)
 I never wanted carbon and I still don't... this change in direction breaks my heart. I was set on getting Shred Dogg as my next bike but not if all they will offer is carbon. I hope they got good seats on the hype train...
  • + 50
 @millsr4: If their geo was going to work for you, it still will.
  • + 39
 Do be honest I'm bummed they got rid of Al. Was waiting for the smash to come back in stock to get one, not sure I can afford this. With that being said, these look great and they are a rad company and it's made here. Time to save up!
  • + 15
 @scvkurt03: It was more than just about geo, it was ethos and craftsmanship. For me a quality welded and machined frame is down right sexy I'm against using the fantastic plastic for most applications in the bike industry although they claim to have solve my biggest issues which are durability and consistency/quality of layups. The increase in prices aren't exactly appealing either...
  • - 3
 @millsr4: Buy a Pedalhead?
  • + 4
 @thook: you will no doubt be able to get a used one at knock down prices very shortly
  • + 33
 You will not really get it. Carefully unmentioned in this Pinbike commercial is the fact that the rear triangle is aluminum. That is one of the reasons the frame costs "only" $2440, instead of the fairly standard $3,000 for a full carbon bike.

Weight is the other reasons: 6.5 pounds with no shock makes this a pretty heavy "carbon" frame. Hopefully the weight is the frame complete not just the front triangle.
  • - 8
flag gerhards (Jan 30, 2019 at 22:46) (Below Threshold)
 Only thing still worrying me is recyclability. But if the total resource investment is even half of current standard carbon manufacture - and sounds like it is for labor and less waste due to on-time production - then I'm sold. If true, what was discussed is incredibly disruptive.
  • + 10
 @duzzi: I think the back end of Trek Remedys are Al. The Reign might be the same...
  • + 19
 @duzzi:

All evil frames, which are complete carbon Fibre, weigh over 2.9 kilos. And the heavy hitters from yt or Santa are not a lot lighter. Thus this weight is great. The vitus CRX frames go the same route with alloy rear end and come at 2800 grams in M.
  • - 55
flag jclnv (Jan 30, 2019 at 23:25) (Below Threshold)
 Thanks Trump.
  • + 22
 stoked with companies pushing more and more the limits of building i would like to see a future where you chose your frame based on preferred material, and not based on how deep your pockets go ultimately, i want peace on earth and affordable bikes for everyone.. .. and uplifts too, of course...
  • - 4
flag benpinnick (Jan 31, 2019 at 3:48) (Below Threshold)
 @duzzi: The reason that a standard carbon frame costs $3000 is the mark up applied. The materials you make it from don't actually change all that much price wise - only the quantity you make has a significant cost impact. Given its direct this frame is actually relatively expensive as you'd expect from small run US manufacture, its just there's not $2500 of mark up in there.
  • + 15
 This is one of the most innovative bikes I have ever seen!
  • + 9
 @duzzi: Not exactly the only people in the business doing that are they? Hope are still making £10k superbikes with alu rear triangles.
  • + 6
 @TomShark: Reigns and Trances both have an aluminum rear triangle. Seems common but I can’t speak for any other brand
  • + 4
 @thook: I'm selling a brand new never ridden aluminum smash frame. large
  • + 4
 @TomShark: remedy frame only option is full carbon. 9.7 full build is aluminum rear end. 9.8 build is just aluminum chain stays.
  • + 18
 @duzzi: "The rear-end is aluminum and still made in-house." The weight ain't a big deal for heavy hitting bikes like this. Their alloys were not ridiculous for frame weights and these look to be less. That said, weight or lack thereof is soooooo over-hyped with bikes.
  • + 19
 A beautiful bike. Pretty disappointed they wont be producing alu bikes anymore. Brands on the carbon hype wagon dont understand that if a customer doesnt subscribe to plastic bikes, they wont ever be convinced otherwise.

Seriously GG just make this frame aluminum (and keep them in stock!) and I doubt you'll have any problems.

Almost bought an alu Jeffsy - out of stock
Almost bought an alu Whyte - out of stock
Best option out right now - Alu Canondale Habit
What could have been THE best option - Guerrilla Gravity new Smash - If it was Alu....
  • + 3
 @TomShark: frame only remedy version is full carbon
  • + 2
 @benpinnick: yup. Landed cost of carbon into USA is a little over a grand. Rest is markup.
  • + 23
 @NYShred: Why not just get a Banshee? They only come in aluminium and are pretty awesome bikes.
  • + 8
 @duzzi: it says, "the rear end is aluminum, and still made in-house," directly under the picture of the guy welding the rear triangle...
  • + 8
 @NYShred: Rocky makes some amazing alum bikes. Check out the instinct BC Al, its amazing
  • + 8
 @NYShred: Commencal.
  • + 10
 @benpinnick: So you know what their costs are on this and what the mark up is? You're suggesting they are lying by saying the labor time is the saving factor here and you know the real truth. Pretty bold.
  • + 5
 @NYShred: You do know, Commencal makes only Alu bikes right?
  • + 1
 @sethbuckner: I wish I could take that thing off of your hands right now. Very enticing.
  • + 5
 @yupstate: I think you mis-interpreted what I said. What I mean is that for a small run US manufactured frame done the way they are doing it the price is about what you'd expect. I don't actually know GG's costs of course, but the number doesn't seem wildly high or low. I also however will say that its not cheaper than a big brand frame because they can make it cheaper. Its cheaper because the big brands have massive mark ups.
  • + 3
 @duzzi: I clicked through purchase process for a medium Trail Pistol. With Fox Float Performance Elite rear shock it is claimed 7.1 pounds (probably a small) plus $85 shipping, total $2725, to the western US.
  • + 2
 @NYShred: Just bought an alu Transition Smuggler for similar reasons. Also check out the Orbea Occam TR in alu
  • + 1
 @duzzi: yeah, i concur... after watching the video last night (the one with the co-founder interview) where he stated that the frame weight is a competitive 6.5lbs, i went to check my notes from when i built my SB5.5 last spring... my yeti in size XL (with the DPX2 shock) weighs 6.41 lbs. the dpx2 weighs almost 1lb exactly. so the GG smash complete would then be 7.5lbs with shock (assuming that they're including the rear triangle) so that's ~17% heavier than the yeti frameset.

now don't get me wrong, i'm super stoked that GG is making a carbon frame here in denver. i think its awesome, and i hope their innovations spur the competition from the other brands.
  • + 3
 @NYShred: Check out FOES out of California, all Aluminum all hand made and gorgeous workmanship. I love my Mixer
  • - 7
flag duzzi (Jan 31, 2019 at 7:24) (Below Threshold)
 @bansaiman: No the weight of this is not really impressive. We still do not know if the 6.5 pounds is just the front triangle, but mid travel, 130-140, Ibis/Pivot/Santa Cruz are all well below 6 pounds with shock. My Ibis HD3 (160/150) is 5.9 pounds with shock, 5.2 lbs bare. If you care about weight putting aluminum on a frame is always heavier (and cheaper). And there are cheaper all carbon frames around. For example my full carbon Norco Revolver was $1800 and if you care about weight it was 4.6 (painted red) WITH shock.
  • + 2
 @NYShred: You can always buy a Reeb!
  • - 2
 @Ttimer: Almost $5k, no thanks
  • - 2
 @danedownhill: Theyre $5k, no thanks
  • - 2
 @pbfan08: you do know, theyre $5k, right?
  • + 2
 @fock yea !!!!
  • + 40
 Not sure why so many people seem to be taking a dump on this. Seems like great innovation that's going to start driving costs down for us and bringing manufacturing back to the U.S.
  • + 4
 @TheR: agree!
  • + 14
 This is definitely really cool. Awesome seeing a company really explore the manufacturing options and taking a unique approach. At scale, it will be really interesting to see what they can do if everything really is that robotic.

The pricing discussion here is a bit odd. MSRP (or market price) is really not dependent on the cost to make the frame. The price for a carbon frame is set by the market. This is why you see a number of carbon frames all priced roughly the same, about $3.3K. The cost determines company's margin. I'm guessing SC, Trek, Yeti, etc. make a 50% margin (FOB) on their frames at wholesale. If wholesale is 50% off MSRP, a frame costs about 800-900 for a company to make (obviously there are shipping, admin, overhead costs not included). I'd be interested, once the initial investment is discounted, if GG is doing it for 500-600 with shorter lead times and more capacity.

Anyway, congrats to GG. Seems like really great innovation for such a small company. Definitely a bike I'll take a look at in the future.
  • + 7
 As someone with a short inseam disappointed their 'small' seat tube length is still 16.5". Inorder to run a dropper with a comfortable 100mm travel this would never fit comfortably (for ref I have a small Rune with 15.5" seat tube which just allows me to run 100mm dropper comfortably) . Ibis was able to get their sizing to truly work based on reach, in fact I would be able to choose between a small or medium with their RipMo and HD4. A lot of u complain about bikes not fitting tall riders, us short folks are even more limited.
  • - 1
 @TheR: But you do have to look at the big picture here. Yes they are "bringing manufacturing back to the USA", but they are doing it with robots and automation. Is it better than just making the shit in China, yes. But its also not some major boon to the american workforce.

This is what alot of people lose sight of when we think about manufacturing and jobs in the US. Its automation that is by far the largest contributor to manufacturing job loss in the US, not jobs lost overseas. Unfortunately as a country we are still trying to hold onto the past and I feel like we are woefully under prepared for the the future. We need to start thinking about how to train the future workforce for the jobs that will exist in 30 years, not the ones that existed 30 years ago.
  • + 10
 I don't get the bitchin about weight. I went to their site, built a "4" (I guess "large), Ride 1 and with base wheels set and MRP Ribbon upgrade and it lists under 29#. Unless GG is outright lying, that's certainly competitive with most other brands...esp at $4795.
  • + 4
 @NYShred: Jenson regularly has very good deals on very well specced Banshees.

I would be surprised if they were super expensive in the US. Even over here, in the land of YT, well specced Banshee complete bikes are not much more expensive than YT.
  • + 3
 @NYShred: Currently Knolly throws a huge discount on their 2018 bikes.
  • + 3
 @millsr4: in truth I completely agree, yes my fancy carbon bike Is light, but personally I would love to go back to aluminium for both durability, and feel companies like Banshee seem to be few and far between in terms of someone offering al bikes without any carbon options.
  • + 7
 @sino428: Actually making things with robots and automation can be a major boon to american standards of living. Its not about "1 guy and his machine doing the work of 10 guys", its "1 guy and his machine produce 10 times as much stuff ".
Which is awesome because there is now 10x more stuff available. And if there is one thing people want all the time, its more stuff!
  • - 1
 @Ttimer: True, but if people have no jobs they won't be able to buy all that cool stuff.
  • + 3
 @Grmasterd: As a 6'7" rider I will argue for most of us it is MUCH harder to find a bike that we can fit and pedal on comfortably. I've never found a bike that had enough stack, comfortable reach, and reasonable seat tube length/angle that allowed enough leg extension, without putting your ass directly over the rear axle or even behind it.
You could probably hop on 90% of companies S/M bikes and make them work. Tall people end up fighting an XL to make it fit.
I appreciate companies like GG/Pole/Mondraker pushing the geo norms because it makes bikes actually work for tall people.
  • + 10
 @sino428: Any job that wasn't there to begin with is a NEW job. I guarantee GG will directly and indirectly be paying more people with this business model. More robots mean more robot repairmen.
  • + 13
 @duzzi: I did mention it in the article Wink
  • + 9
 @dhx42: Finally, a logical comment on product pricing.

My add to this would be expenses/overhead costs are probably very significant when you consider the quality of marketing, r&D, and employee benefits most of these companies probably take on.

The idea that the "markup" from COG to MSRP determines profit and implies the greed of bike companies is hilarious. Especially since I'm not sure anyone here has actually seen a recent P/L from a big (or small) bike company.
  • + 1
 @NYShred: Reeb makes a 140 travel metal bike, and its rad.
  • + 2
 @benpinnick: Well, my point was how do you know GG doesn't have massive mark up and can still provide it cheaper?
  • + 25
 @sino428: This is an add-on, not a loss. Before, there was no carbon manufacturing here in the States and at GG. Now there is. Somebody has to run those machines. Program those machines. Devise sale strategies. Sell the bikes. The machines open up those possibilities. You're only looking at one dimension.

The other thing these machines do is drive down prices. This is not just going to affect Guerilla Gravity. If others want to compete, then they will have to devise a manufacturing strategy that will bring their costs down, too. Or slash costs for less of a profit margin, or whatever. This is good for us as riders.

For GG, this could be the start of something big -- manufacturing frames for other companies, in much the same way Giant makes frames for certain companies. That raises labor demand, too.

Now you can say, "What about the welders who aren't making aluminum bikes anymore?" Well, I would argue that GG's decision to go carbon was in response to market demand. If the market demand for aluminum bikes is diminishing (and it is, regardless of what some hardcore holdouts commenting here have to say), then who's to say GG could continue to compete? And if they can't compete, keeping welders employed is moot. There wouldn't be a company to employ the welders.

This is innovation. And it's great news.
  • + 4
 @bigwheels87: 100%. The issue for the small brands is less on the supply cost side and more on the ability to leverage overhead. These are significant expenses and these expenses above COG and this is especially true for a small company with an innovative process like GG. Takes some real leadership to do what they are doing. Hats off too them.
  • + 3
 @yupstate: And it has been said already but your sales margins are not all profit.
  • + 4
 @TheR: I think you are missing my point. In this particular example about GG, this seems to be a good thing, because almost all the other carbon manufacturing was already done overseas, so bringing any portion of it back is overall a net positive.

My point was more big picture, about manufacturing as a whole, and that ultimately, across all industries, automation is going to continue to cost alot of manufacturing jobs and that's what we need to prepare for. Innovation is good, but you have to be aware of and prepare for all aspects of what implementing it means. Yes, someone has to program, run, repair the machines, and those are jobs, but the number of people required for those jobs is always going to be significantly less that they amount of people those machines are ultimately replacing. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to automate in the first place. The reason its done is because of how efficient it is.
  • + 0
 @pyromaniacman129: at 6'7" yes, you'll have a harder time finding a frame with a good fit without resorting to extreme seat post lengths and stem lengths which sucks. However @ 5'4" - well there are a lot more people this size than 6'7", and I can assure we do not have a good fit with 90% of the s/m out there.
  • + 9
 @sino428: All true. But consider, we don't have as many blacksmiths as we did in 1890. But we do have more computer programmers (or your modern occupation of choice). That's the way of things. Things evolve. And by and large, our lives are better for it.
  • + 2
 @powderturns: depends on the factory... I would say that most are well south of that mark, even in CAD.
  • + 4
 The headtube fits an extra beer, sold!
  • + 3
 @yupstate: Define massive...like brokerage firms charging $5/trade for a nanosecond of server activity? Not much room in a $2200 unit for a theft-worthy markup.
  • + 6
 @Grmasterd: I don't think you're looking at the new geo:

p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories/2019/01/30/max_Megatrail_196626.jpg?1548897603

Small megatrail seat tube is now 15.35". Not too many frames much shorter than that other than Knolly and Ibis.
  • + 1
 @yupstate: I don't of course, but I would be willing to wager the per unit cost is higher than a big co bike. Ben
  • + 1
 @Grmasterd: I don't know how they handle it now, but on any of their aluminum bikes you could just get the seat-tube cut by them to whatever length you wanted.
  • + 1
 @Zaeius: thx - when I looked earlier today the ExtraSmall was not on the website. Good to see, more options are a good thing
  • + 7
 I ordered one this morning. Smash to replace my Evil Wreckoning. Was looking to get a short travel bike to complement the Wreck, but this should climb better with the steeper seat-tube and crush mode, plus I can get the Trail Pistol seatstays and air shock if I still want something snappier. Published frame weight is about the same as the Wreck, which is fine for enduro, but is quite a bit heavier than competitors like Trance if you're looking at the shorter-travel build. The ride1 with RS coil shock, Lyric RC2, and Revive dropper upgrades was $5500 with tax and local pickup. We'll see how this first production run of a brand new manufacturing process turns out, guess I'll be a bit of a beta tester.


Now, do I sell the Wreck and recoup some of the cost or slap a 180 fork on and turn it into a dedicated park monster?
  • + 5
 @millsr4: Check out Knolly's aluminum frames. Top-notch quality and they bikes rip.
  • + 6
 @TheR: This is true, but my main point in all this is that we have to prepare for it now, as these changes in technology are happening rapidly and we in the US seem more concerned with bring back jobs that won't exist is 25 years, than we are concerned with preparing our future workforce for the jobs that will exist.
  • + 2
 @Skooks: They are definitely already on my short list Smile as is Banshee @snowboarderboy but I believe both of those companies still manufacture over seas and the made in USA aspect was also a big selling point for me. The only options that line up with GG that I know of are Foes, Turner, and Intense although 2 of those a price restrictive and I don't want to look like a Gwin fan boy on the other lol.
  • + 2
 @millsr4: Reeb.

Also Intense and Turner haven't made their bikes in the US since going to carbon.
  • + 1
 @kmg0: I thought that Intense only outsourced carbon and the aluminum was still in house? Also, it doesn't look like Reeb has a 27.5" trail bike and I'm a bit too small for a 29er with my riding style...
  • + 0
 @NYShred: how much do some bikes cost?
  • + 6
 @powderturns: Keep in mind in the rest of the markup goes towards covering overhead such as warehousing, rent, insurance, r&d, tooling costs, legal stuff, patents, marketing, paying the light bills, paying peoples salaries, paying for all the other product that will get put on the bikes, savings and funding other projects.

Don't forget that is all covered with money made between landed costs and wholesale costs, then a lot of that stuff has to be covered again by the dealer.

Point being, a company doesn't pay a grand for a bike, sell it for three and clear two. Add in a middle man and you make maybe half that then pay for all those other things and you have way less in hand than you would think.
  • + 2
 @millsr4: intense is all carbon now, me thinks.
  • + 2
 @savagelake: Yay, foresooth and verily.
  • + 1
 @sino428: I get you. And pretty much in agreement.
  • + 6
 I love the modular frame idea and the the thought of stronger carbon has changed my thoughts on carbon frames, all at a sensible pricing.
I have to confess, this is the first lengthy front page video interview that I have actually watched in its entirety, purely because it was interesting and made a lot of sense!
good job G.G! tup
  • + 1
 @jkella: Trance 29 is carbon rear triangle and rocker. Only the lower link is aluminum. But price is closer to the $3k figure.
  • + 1
 @savagelake: Lame, I think you're right...
  • + 3
 @BirdBikes: Then GG is lying, which is a pretty bold thing to call them out on. I honestly don't know any of the costs, I just know what is being reported. It seems a few folks on here that are business savvy seem to want to call them out for lying. People are basically saying: "No, your frame isn't at an attractive price because you've come up with a way to make it cheaper, you just aren't 'marking it up' as much as everyone else." People are basically calling out the whole premise for this article as being a lie which is damn bold in my opinion without true facts. Maybe @mikelevy has more input after talking directly with the company.
  • + 1
 @bigwheels87: I wasn't saying they have massive markup, I was using that as a comparison as a counter-point to someone saying the only reason GG's frame isn't the same price as everyone else's is because GG in fact ISN'T marking it up as much. My point was "How do you know their markup?"
  • + 4
 @dthomp325: the Smash climbs like a beast in plush mode. Mine is setup with a coil and I never flip the CS switch. Enjoy the new ride. Smile
  • + 1
 @yupstate: Why should GG charge any less than anyone else? If they can make the bikes cheaper, they should make more...
  • + 3
 @dhx42: Because prices are already ridiculous in this industry...
  • + 2
 @millsr4: You may think they are but if the prices were actually ridiculous no one would buy the bikes... Since there are a number of bike brands and suppliers, new ones entering the space, and brands willing to invest in the space to make new product, I'd say the current prices aren't symptomatic of a market where they are out of line with demand...

Check-out the latest earnings reports on outdoor brands (w/o any military contracts), it's not like the operating margins are 40% or something. They are pretty reasonable...
  • + 2
 @vikb: I actually found my Wreck to climb better with coil because it's more linear and tends to sit higher in the travel when adjusted the way I like, plus it has full range compression adjust vs those crappy three position adjusters that come on air shocks, which allows you to fine tune the feel.
  • + 2
 @dthomp325: Park Monster!! Obviously! Wink
  • + 3
 @dhx42: Just because people are willing to pay a certain price it doesn't mean that price is then reasonable. Most people have a huge gap in understanding of manufacturing and materials so they are willing to pay top dollar for what they think they "need" or what is the new hot shit rather than what is appropriate. Just because a market dictates a price, it doesn't make that price reasonable. Just look at the medical and pharmaceutical industry in our country as an example...
  • + 3
 @jclnv: That comment was better left in your head than on the internet...
  • + 1
 @underhawk: ask your mom
  • + 4
 @millsr4: fair enough. but it's not like GG just sat around a table and said "i don't know, $2200 sounds good!" borrowing that much money requires capital, which requires investors, accountants, and banks. those folks making an investment or taking on liability require projections and will often chime in on how to make those projections fit their tolerance for risk. so maybe GG wants to sell the bike for $1800, but the bank wouldn't loan the balance of funds needed to cover the new equipment unless they showed more revenue YOY.

seems a little contrived to compare a small company to Santa Cruz, never mind the pharmaceutical industry. i feel totally fine with those guys making enough to have a comfortable lifestyle and grow a reputable brand.

fixing inflated prices requires EVERYONE to buy cheaper bikes, not just dentists.
  • + 1
 @NYShred: she said $5k!
  • + 1
 @bigwheels87: I never made any such comparison to Santa Cruz or the like... I simply said that the prices are ridiculous and I stand by that. Carbon is NOT the correct material for this application when you can make an aluminum frame at the same weight and strength for a lower cost. Look at all carbon enduro bikes and their aluminum equivalents, the weight differences are negligible and often due to component weights rather than the frame itself. I feel like the model they had previously was ideal but the market wants carbon because the masses don't know any better and here we are...
  • + 2
 @yupstate: Agree that that's quite bold, and even if it turns out to be true, does it really matter? What is really relevant when purchasing a frame is how much you're paying (quality and working conditions should come up too).
Obviously that would put a bit of a damper on the breakthrough factor but still really cool even if it costs as much.
The time benefits do seem to make sense that it should cost less though.
Just my two cents.
  • + 1
 @duzzi: That's for a size large without shock, pretty reasonable weight considering the intended use: SMASHING!
  • + 1
 @adamkovics: it's for a large frame, not a medium, the reason they weighed the large is because the other frame size molds are still in production
  • + 1
 @bigwheels87:
Amen! Well said.
  • + 13
 @millsr4: Nonsense.

For starters, mountain bikes are "wants" not "needs". Secondly, it's as good as a "perfect" market that you're going to find anywhere in that there is an absolute plethora or brands and customers who have no market power and the industry is not subject to overt market distorting regulation meaning you get as pure a case of price formation as possible in a free market.

It's not even like demand for mountain bikes is inelastic (like oil for example) meaning people need to buy it no matter the price.

Pricing for mountain bike frames is as balanced a market as you are going to find anywhere. Pricing is not a function of cost. Whilst knowledge and appreciation of manufacturing/materials and consumer behaviour/influence all impact individual consumers differently, that is not something unique to mountain bike frames.

People pay what they are willing to pay and suppliers are willing to accept. Of course consumers always want things cheaper and suppliers always want things more expensive, the interests of both parties are served and it is very hard to argue anyone is getting a raw deal (whether you personally think so or not). It's not the case that there is some level of collusion or price fixation amongst bike brands that would cause otherwise.
  • + 3
 @Ktron: can’t say it much better than that. Sometimes I feel like pinkbike needs a micro Econ 101 class.
  • + 4
 Bahaha, these people saying they're price gouging. Buy yourself a few robot arms, a building, a van, a couple welding machines, a few CNC machines, 5 employees, and let me know your pricing model afterwards. The 12 year old clowns of PB need to all get deleted
  • + 1
 @Ktron: Where did I ever spell out some sort of conspiracy between brands or say that the market is imbalanced?! My point is people are sheep and carbon is not all it is cracked up to be. From an engineering and manufacturing standpoint carbon adds little benefit vs. the added costs in this application. I was perfectly happy with their pricing before they went carbon which is part of the reason why they used to be at the top of my list for a new bike.
  • - 1
 @jclnv: wow -49 down votes? Lots of trump haters ????
  • + 3
 @NYShred: I've never been a plastic fan either
  • + 3
 I actually think this is the best mountainbike since years. It gives you all the options to costume tune it like you want it and it has a cabel chanel, botttle cage and threaded bottom breakets and all the other practicel stuff everybody has always wanted. Two suspension modes for every kind of travel you choose, wtf. This is heaven. I want 27,5 in back and 29 in the front with 160 mm travel on both ends. and its possible. Yeah. But there are two problems. I would prefer aluminium and i am living in europe.
  • + 5
 @millsr4: Only that prices aren't "reasonable".

My point is that the prices are entirely reasonable, fair, and the market knows far more than you in determining price.

Your perceptions of value and price reasonableness are entirely your own and a result of your knowledge, values and drivers, but just yours. You're just as much a sheep as anyone else.
  • + 2
 Came here to say the exact same thing... N+1
  • + 1
 I got a Transition Sentinel Aluminum with your name on it @NYShred:
  • - 1
 Ha ha what an ugly bike and price tag! @DH-Angel:
  • + 1
 @jkella: specialized have aluminum rear ends
  • + 4
 @drunknride: That's the exact reason I'm teaching my kids, all under 8 yrs old about robotics and computer science. The future will be all about automation in every way possible. Progress or die. This coming from a carpenter/fabricator.
  • + 1
 @dhx42: amen. i am always baffled by how few people i interact with have actual experience running a business, never mind one that manufactures physical products.

these concepts are really not that hard, either. take this obsession over "markup." one's reaction has less to do with the realities of a company's cost accounting or profit goals than the behavioral response to what that speculated markup means to you as an individual. the marginal utility of $2000 is a lot to most people.

also, it's amazing how much value a retail consumer will attribute to each individual purchase they make. if you really want a bike company to respond to your wants/needs, the bike direct model is a good platform for that. so pony up and value/support companies like GG accordingly.
  • + 3
 @dhx42: I’m willing to bet that most companies selling carbon bikes are operating on margins way higher than 40%. You can’t stay in business with that low of a margin unless you are selling a very high-volume product, and Mountain biking is still a niche sport. I also have first hand experience with manufacturing in Asia and the overhead and labor is much lower than you think. We’ve been conditioned over years with tech marketing to believe that $2500-3500 is a reasonable price to pay for a carbon frame, and consumers happily pay that price. I’m fairly certain the actual cost is much, much lower. Cost is setup so that you make your ROI well inside year one and the rest is profit. And shipping (sea freight) is the cheapest part of this whole thing.
  • + 2
 @SlodownU: operating margin also includes expenses and if we're talking about the bike company itself, you have to use their wholesale cost to create revenue figures, which is probably 25-50% under MSRP. they may markup their landed cost for a frame by maybe 100% but that doesn't mean their YE operating margin is anywhere near 40%. the tax liability on that figure alone would be a significant headache i doubt the bike industry really has.
  • + 3
 @Ktron: I'm a sheep because I have my own knowledge, values, and experience which leads me to my own opinion? That is the exact opposite... you enjoy paying too much for stuff you don't need... Wink
  • + 3
 @SlodownU: Operating Margin is the margin for the business; not the margin of the direct costs associated with making each individual frame. The revenue generated by each frame needs to cover all direct supply and labor costs to make the frame plus all of the business costs that go into actually running a business, which people have outlined but this R&D and future resource development.

Take the Clarus Corp, which owns Black Diamond and Sierra Bullets where BD makes up a lot of the revenue. Their operating margin is 4.2% or an EBITDA Margin of 8%. The margin on individual products is probably in the 50% range, but there are a bunch of other costs that go into managing a company that brings their products to market.
  • + 2
 @millsr4: i'm sure some runners and most people who can't afford to exercise would say anyone who buys a mountain bike is paying too much for something you don't need. @Ktron was making an economic argument that you're just as much a part of the market as the person who wants to spend 50% more than you do. your decisions are as much responsible for carbon bikes and their pricepoint as those who buy them. it's pretty basic.
  • + 2
 @millsr4: you said " @dhx42: Just because people are willing to pay a certain price it doesn't mean that price is then reasonable. "

uhm, that's exactly what it means. no one is forcing anyone to buy anything. if a person willingly pays, then it is by definition reasonable.

your example of medical/pharmaceutical indistry is not a great example... when you're about to die, you dont have much of a choice... when you passed out during a heart attack, you're not going to price shop which emergency room is cheaper while in the ambulance... therefore you'll pay whatever the cost is. (thus the reason why most civilized countries have systems in place for their healthcare system(s) that mitigate this market failure issue) so obviously not the same as a consumer good like a bike...
  • + 3
 @bigwheels87: Sure, our sport is a complete luxury I fully understand that and when I say "need" it is relative to our activity not actual necessity, that should have been implied. I still don't understand how my decisions to not want carbon and only buy a frame from a company that doesn't heavily invest in carbon are responsible for carbon bikes?
  • + 1
 @Grmasterd: I have an xtra medium smash. Meaning Large size length, but seat tube & head tube from medium. Curious if they still allow customizations like that with the carbon setup.
  • + 2
 @adamkovics: My point was that the price is unreasonable because the added cost is unnecessary. For what it takes to actually manufacture carbon I don't think it is unreasonable at all.

Maybe that wasn't the best comparison, would the brand Supreme be better? People perceive this company to be valuable and will pay exorbitant prices for their stuff but in the end it doesn't add anything other than flash and clout.
  • + 1
 @millsr4: because you're still participating in the market that also includes carbon bikes (and steel bikes and e-bikes and skinsuits and bike racks....). the industry looks at you and says "this guy will spend $2000 on an aluminum frame, there must be another guy that will spend $3000 on a carbon frame." just because you're right that carbon is unnecessary doesn't mean you're excluded from participating in the market forces that created carbon in the first place. whether or not carbon is unnecessary is totally irrelevant. isn't full suspension unnecessary?
  • + 4
 @millsr4: I think we're talking different things. If you don't think Carbon bikes are worth it and are disappointed GG is abandoning AL bike that is totally fine, but that doesn't mean that the market for the price for carbon bikes in its entirety is unreasonable, as you mentioned earlier. Most of us in disagreement with you are saying that the market price for carbon bikes is reasonable because the market for this good is very balanced. Whether you think a carbon bike is the right material or not, is a different discussion.

If you think Carbon bikes aren't good value, there's an argument for that. However, you are just one plot on the entire demand curve that makes up the whole market. Given that carbon is becoming more popular, the market is disagreeing with you at the moment. Market's are living things, so who knows maybe it will shift more in line with your thinking in the coming years. But if we knew that, no one would be arguing on PB because we could predict the future...
  • + 2
 @dhx42: Yea they can and should charge whatever they think it's worth and people are willing to pay. My point was to the people pretending to know how much it costs them to make and claiming they are just discounting it more than other brands that make carbon frames. Those folks seem to think they didn't REALLY come up with a cheaper way to make the frames...thus saying the article and the company are lying.
  • + 1
 @sutter2k: I think it isn't really necessary with the new frames the seat tubes are much shorter. On the AL frames I was going to try and squeeze a 160mm dropper on a large and on the carbon frames I could probably clear a 200mm post. I'm 6' 33ish inch inseam
  • + 2
 @duzzi: well, if you look carefully you will notice that one of the photo captions says that the rear triangle is alluminum, but they should have said it in the main text.

Other reviews stated it clearly, and their rational: so many pieces of alluminum would have to be machined and laid into the molds for pivots that it is more practical to have alluminum stays.
  • + 2
 @powderturns: "yup. Landed cost of carbon into USA is a little over a grand. Rest is markup"

Where do you get that bummer from? 20 years in home retail makes me think irds way low, prove me wrong.

Typical LBS margin on bikes around 37% overhead cost of doing business around 36%. (Gooogle, Bicycle Retailer, NBDA)

There are very few people getting rich in the bike business
  • + 2
 @plndrws: industry knowledge from 8 years ago. could be dated. but also recall, there are middlemen not included in that landed cost (distributors, sales guys), and that cost also doesn't include any company overhead, marketing, engineering, etc. not saying anyone is getting rich - it's a brutally competitive business, and the number of bankruptcies isn't entirely due to poor operations and bad management.
  • + 2
 @yupstate: he doesn't know what their costs are but as someone who imports frames he will know a hell of a lot about markup..and seen what out of the mold frames cost ...that can be as low as 400 bucks

Anyone can gain market penetration by offsetting costs today and taking that hit initially
  • + 185
 Small companies like GG and Pole leading the way with inovations and big dogs reinventing the wheel and setting up new "standards". No need to think twice where to put my money.
  • + 15
 Amen brotha
  • + 9
 Pretty rad, huh?
  • + 49
 Ding! ding! It's has been like this in almost every single human organization in every industry, this is how we roll. Aside of few exceptions like Sram and XX1 where they changed the drivetrain game with narrow wides and cassette dinner plates. Small company has less to lose and by default is forced to do something new, since it won't win playing the big sharks game (like Box components WTF?!). At the same time, a big shark has a family to feed (employees, potential shareholders), you can't go around streets challenging people to a fist fight while carring a baby on your shoulder. When you are young and dumb you can do whatever you want. Like call every company making bikes in Asia polluters and sea life killers.
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: The next step is small innovative company is bought out by large soul less corporation. 95% of the time it happens every time. Bless those 5% who dont sell out.
  • + 14
 @Boardlife69: at the same time media is so impregnated with all sorts of BS that when I hear someone say “No Bullsht company” I call it BS. Like “By riders for riders”. I’d rather hear blessed by Jesus.
  • + 15
 By the people, for the people. Buy the people, floor the people.
  • + 3
 @Boardlife69: This is how corporations "innovate". Instead of wasting money on some risky product development they just find and buy the winner out there. M&A > R&D.
  • + 3
 @Neale1978: it's like this Pepsi commercial with Kendall Jenner. SJWs got mad as hell - Did it trivialize social movements? Yes. But Did it also point out how trivial social movements can be, how easily can they be orchestrated for any purpose? Yes! Because if this video was made some human rights organization and she carried some symbol of theirs, dunno gave "Black Lives Matter" scarf to the Police man, people would find it "so fkng inspiring". And when the only thing differentiating right from wrong is some symbol, it means anything can be dressed up in high values, so you better pay attention and not judge by the label, neither in positive nor in negative sense. Just because there's "organic" on your snacks, or "fossil free" on the gas station, doesn't mean it's all great and you are a great person for chosing it. So to go back to bikes, "made in US" or "handmade" means little by universal measures. It means something to YOU. it is in your and a few people's heads. not everyone has to recognize the same value in it.
  • + 2
 Too true. Hope other local rocky mountain 'local' companies take note (goofy Fezzari).
  • + 5
 I agree 100%. Placed my pre-order for a Size 2 Smash this morning.
  • + 0
 @Boardlife69: I don't think they will sell out. They are a grass roots bike company who does what they love, and if anything, we will see others trying to copy their process. #BestSupportintheIndustry
#CustomforLess
#RideGG
  • - 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Thankfully there is competition among the big sharks and they have money for R&D ,so it is not almost like that in every single industry. Innovation can come from anywhere. The company Tesla comes to mind.
  • + 106
 Huh. So high temp carbon (350F cure) would imply either a tooling carbon mold, or an Invar mold. Sure you get a lot better mechanical properties, but the production process is normally way out of the price range of a consumer good. It's very much only an aerospace thing, until now I guess. Along with the AFP process.

And that price...

Dear all other bike companies: shots very, very much fired.
  • + 38
 They managed to put out one heck of a nice looking frame, and will let you customize your build, AND have a great price? Not only shots fired, but that might be a full mag dump! Could not be more stoked that such a great bunch of folks are pulling this off. GG just leaped to the front of my list for the new full suspension I'm after this summer. Hot damn.
  • + 5
 Sounds like these guys figured out a clever way to make it much more affordable. That would be pretty amazing if they did.
  • + 3
 PEW! PEW! PEW! BOOOOM! Grenades fired.
  • + 22
 Yeah except there is a picture of the mold and it's not carbon (they are lifting it with a magnet) and it sure doesn't look like invar. I'm going with typical steel tool. "High temp" cure might be 275F, but why bother with high temp cure unless you need service temp close to that cure temp, riding your bike in an oven? And typical bike cure time is 60min, not 3-4 hours. Great they can do it in 30-40min I guess they don't need much b-stage time for wet out.

I would like to see their AFM machine, trying to figure out how that is applied to a complex shape like a bike. Maybe they are just placing flat plys and building the stack before the roll it into a tube.

There is a lot of BS about the fiber in this article. It's starts by saying how everyone else uses T700 but they have a special resin. No mention of what fiber they are using expect it is "long strand", long and short strand only applies to injection molded reinforced plastics or SMC/BMC. Were they trying to make a bike out of chopped random orientation mat? Also everyone uses impact modified resins like Newport 301, nothing new here. If it works for Softball bats and hockey sticks it should be fine for bikes. The fragility of modern bikes has all to do with how thin they are not so much the resin and fiber.
  • + 11
 If they are consumer direct, and bike shops cant sell them with a margin to stay in business, then the frame price isn't that great compared to companies like Trek, Giant, Rocky, Pivot and so on. It seems that cutting out the bike shops is the only way to make it appear to be a better value. Pivot top of the line frame 2999, Devinci top of the line 2600, Rocky mountain 2800, all these while supporting the shops who employee so many. Im stoked that they are doing it, just wish it was more about the quality and configurations, and less about the price. Its misleading that they are cheaper because of their process, its more because they sell direct.
  • + 0
 This advancement is huge! Long live the USA ingenuity!
  • + 7
 @raelx: If you watch the video he states the fiber is pretty much what everyone else is using and is nothing special but, rather, the resin is where they differentiate and allows the higher temp curing and impact strength gains. I know nothing about carbon manufacturing but thats what the man said.
  • + 6
 @danedownhill: They can be sold through shops last I heard. They basically wanted the shops to have 2-3 demos on floors for customers to see and test. Then they place an order and bike will be shipped to shop......
  • + 3
 In addition to the toughness and cure temp that is discussed here, GG's website mentions the recyclability of the material and the safe handling of carbon during layup. Like you said, there's no real advantage of a high temp cure unless you need to operate it in high temperatures, so it's probably to do with processing requirements rather than any real consumer benefit. Based on what's shown, I think they are using a thermoplastic reinforced carbon instead of a traditional epoyx prepreg.

There's been a lot of interest in thermoplastic structures for aerospace. I've seen some short fiber thermoplastic parts made from Dreamliner waste. If it's the same stuff that GG originally started with, I am not shocked that they couldn't get it to work - it's tough, but it's extremely flexible. However GG should have access to PEEK / PEKK / PPS reinforced carbon through a few different suppliers, which would give them much better stiffness properties. All of these would offer quick cycle times and high impact toughness, but require a much higher cure temperature (like 350 C) than an epoxy prepreg.

Edit: my guess for AFM is flat sheets -> preform -> mold. Nothing high tech, but it would be time saving.
  • + 6
 @downhillnews: Shops can sell them, but there isn't any markup available. Basically, you'd use the GG product as a means of getting a customer into the store, then maybe charge them service prices.
  • + 1
 Fused Deposition Modeling or Selective Laser Sintering possibilities? LASERS!!!
  • + 6
 @raelx: If they're using thermoplastic resins the processing temperature could be as high as 800 F. I work in aerospace, not bikes, so I'm not totally familiar with what they do for bikes.

I agree about the fiber discussion, I think he was trying to say they don't use chopped fiber, which is odd. Other companies (Scott off the top of my head) tout the use of T1000.
  • + 2
 @trw0007: Short carbon fiber thermoplastic parts sounds like the stuff Magura brakes are made of ("Carbotecture"). Injection molded, carbon reinforced plastic. Which seems to be a common material for use in the automotive industry. Is that the same kind of stuff, or are these different approaches?
  • + 4
 @raelx: you just made me feel dumb
  • + 2
 @Ttimer: Slightly different approach. It sounds like they experimented with that style of carbon, but moved away from it due to stiffness issues. The thermoplastics I'm referring to are very similar to an epoxy pre-preg uni, but instead of being impregnated with an uncured thermoset plastic, they use a meltable theroplastic resin. The fiber layup will be very similar to a pre-preg (potentially with the use of heat to help form and tack the plys together). Heat and pressure are used to melt the plastic and consolidate the fibers.
  • + 14
 @trw0007: Yeah. It looks like they are using thermoplastic for their polymer matrix instead of a resin. I can't deduce what sort of thermoplastic they are using. It could be PEEK, PP, or polycarbonate or something else. Surprisingly it looks like they are incorporating some number of layers of random directional carbon mat as well.
This is their patent: patents.google.com/patent/US20180264756A1/en?oq=US20180264756A1
The carbon material might be something like this: www.vectorams.com/thermoplastic-prepreg-products
Paint adhesion might be a problem with this thermoplastic material, so maybe that is why they are powder coating.
Pretty neat process. The price is certainly good and it kind of allows them to span the gap between aluminum and resin infused carbon frames, which is pretty cool. Maybe with more development time their frame weights will come down.
  • + 2
 @WheelNut: Damn dude. Good find. As far as the short fiber, I'm not sure. Maybe for cost, or impact or and some cosmetic help?
  • + 9
 @danedownhill: You can buy GG bikes from any bike shop. They have some process where I think they cut the LBS a deal to make it worthwhile to sell to you.

2. Your favorite local bike shop
How to order from your LBS:

Visit your favorite LBS
Let them know you’d like a Guerrilla Gravity bike through our Shop Direct channel
Discuss any options and build components you’d like
Give ‘em your money
They’ll call us up and get the bike ordered
We’ll ship it to the shop
They’ll get it built up for you
Go shred
Work at shop and want more specifics? Give us a shout.
  • + 3
 @WheelNut: That patent is interesting. If they are doing this it would explain a lot of the stuff i pointed out. They would need a higher cure temp for thermoplastic matrix and their patent mentions SMC so this wold explain the short and long strand comments. Random orientation plys would be great for drape if they are trying to mold sheets into half frame shells. That with some AFM placed uni for stiffness. Welding the two halves together is glossed over in the patent but would be the hardest part of this process.

This all reminds me of the Cannondale Raven which was thermoplastic woven sheets compression molded into half shells and then bonded to a magnesium spine. The bonding was the Achilles heal of this design. patents.google.com/patent/US5791673A
  • + 4
 @Ososmash: Yep. They give us a dealer price. Come on in!
  • + 5
 @WheelNut: Good detective work. They received a 250k grant from CO business grants for this patent, I'm pretty sure. Glad to see it went to something good, they didn't just get really high, buy 3 buses, and make a world cup team
  • + 3
 @trw0007: My bet is PEEK as PPS would be worse for paint adhesion. I guess they are using a carbon semipreg to work with and some of the processing may involve interesting methods to heat "tack" the plies in place prior to full heat processing.
  • + 4
 @kmg0: that's actually what I need a manufacturing sector grant to accomplish
  • + 2
 @Mntneer: Also I realize I only read some of the article cause they mention it, ha ha
  • + 3
 @trw0007: possibly using OXPEKK®-LTS. A little digging on PEKK and PEEK lead to an article on OXPEKK®-LTS and it sounds like it's better optimized for carbon tape pre-preg applications.

For the "robot" portion they could be building up their laminate schedule similar to how North Sails does it with their 3Di robot heads. Basically a thin tape that is woven precisely as needed. Have the robot build up your layup, then use a more traditional flat table fabric cutter to trim it to final shape before laying into the mold. This would save all he human labor of moving all the cut layup pieces and layup in a traditional method.

www.northsails.com/sailing/en/innovation/3di-technology
  • + 2
 @raelx: can't up prop this comment enough.
  • + 5
 This has been the most interesting and informative thread I've ever read on pinkbike I think.
  • + 2
 @raelx: this is all stuff the automotive industry has been doing to reduce costs and cycle times hence the weight being similar

I chuckled at someone aboves comments about high temp cure....it reduces cycle times to minutes....is one advantage

Look at lots of parts from BMWs I series carbon parts

The problem they have is that they only slightly changed the game from ply by ply prepreg there's a range of technology that everyone else has just as much access to commercially it's no big secret.
  • + 77
 this sounds pretty awesome and I hope they are wildly successfully. Made in the USA is important to me and any pressure they can put on the bigger players to innovate and deliver better product at lower price is welcome. Plus, they don’t make ebikes and you can be sure your purchase of a pedal bike isn’t subsidizing ebikes!
  • - 71
flag MrBaker87 (Jan 30, 2019 at 22:23) (Below Threshold)
 It may be made in the USA, but it’s made by robots and not American workers. But hey, at least the companies profits may stay local.
  • + 42
 @MrBaker87: they did mention that they will be hiring more people to help run the new carbon production.. so actually, they are creating jobs.
  • + 31
 @MrBaker87: just because a job is now performed by a robot, it doesn't mean it replaces an "american worker" it just means its performed more erfficiently, you still need someone to run/program the robot (i know because i run surgical robots for a big medical company- they dont run themselves)
  • + 11
 Bigger players constantly innovate. In marketing B/S. So they don't have the time to develop proper products.
  • + 38
 @philip9175: I think you're wrong. I've seen a telly program called Futurama and in that they have a robot that can do everything.
  • - 15
flag jaame (Jan 31, 2019 at 0:57) (Below Threshold)
 @MrBaker87: was going to say same! Still not creating jobs. Still, those workers in the robot factory in Japan will have jobs, which is pretty great!
  • + 10
 @bigtim: Please dont tell me robots will take over drinking too. *Not sure if I should start killing them with fire before they lay eggs, or if I should hide all the booze.*
  • + 4
 Yeah: Creativity and disruptive processes are usually the purview of smaller, more agile and risk-accepting, outfits. If it works, they get "taken off the street/bought out" by a big.

That said, I love GG's approach to the modularity/build process/materials. And done in the US of A!

Will look forward to some test reviews and longterm durability results. Would love to see this catapult the industry to another, less costly, level of MTB production.
  • + 2
 @MrBaker87: A CNC machine is a robot too. It is what it takes to have something produced at a lower price whilst avoiding underpaid manual labor. It for instance also allows Superstarcomponents to do more production in house which hugely improves their efficiency. Ever since the industrial revolution there has been these kinds of discussions.

Using the robot for tape laying is an interesting one. I'm surprised it took so long because these industrial robot arms are readily available and there sure must be several companies by now that provide you with the software, fibre tensioners and all that to have this setup. I actually did my graduation project at one of these (taniq.com). Then again the difficulties I see here is that if they want to orient the fibres in line with the loads (in longitudinal direction with the tube) they are going to have to do wet lay up to make them stick in place. It is doable but it is messy as you'll have to bleed the excess resin before it cures. Or well, they may actually have a clever way to deal with that. Or they may be using pre-pregs.

Personally I'm not interested in the bike itself, simply because I'm not interested in a carbon bike. My hardtail frame is welded in the UK, my full susser is made in the US (at least it says so on the frame) so apparently that's all possible. But the process of producing these bikes is interesting. Apparently carbon frames are a big deal in the US (considering even Intense quit welding alu frames and only offers Asian made carbon frames) so if this is what it takes for US customers to buy a US made frame I suppose that's all good.
  • + 8
 @vinay: definitely good because even if the majority of made in china stuff was made with very cheap labour, that is a little bit of money going into china from other countries every time anyone buys anything. A little bit of money multiplied by billions of units multiplied by thirty years is an absolute f*ck ton of money that china now has that it didn't used to have. That money has been used to bankroll an oppressive regime, which has had the knock on effect of doing countless things that I'm not too keen on - and the worst is yet to come.

Thumbs up to GG. I would love to buy something that was made in the USA. Robots or not. At least in the USA I can watch YouTube and do a Google search. I can say the president is a wanker without getting thrown in jail. I know that the law applies to all people equally, at least in theory. I love the USA. We need more USA made stuff, or at least we need less made in China stuff. Nothing against the Chinese per se, but I hate the communist party with a passion. People should think more carefully about where there money is going and more importantly, how they are helping to shape the future.

As the Aussie prime minister said last year, there was a time when we could count on the world operating in a way that we generally agreed with. Not any longer, now that China is P.A.I.D. and it's run by a bunch of c*nts.
  • + 2
 @jaame: Oh yeah, I'm all for producing local. But I live in The Netherlands so it makes more sense for me to have a frame built in the UK or Germany than in the US.

I just ordered a new bike from Azor last week at my local bike shop. It is fun. The two ladies who run the shop remember all (commuter/cargo) bikes me and my girlfriend have bought from them over the past nine years. They try to fix the bike same or next day and borrow me a bike to still be able to travel to work etc. That's how you win the competition against internet dealers. The Azor is a heavy commuter so it may not appeal to the PB crowd but it is really what keeps me sane. I'd go nuts if I'd commute by car or public transport. At the end of the day, this is the kind of bike I'll ride most of the time so it'd better be good. And supposedly they really are. What I like is that they also employ people with a cognitive or visual limitation (including people who are 100% blind). Seeing a western company apply the latest and greatest technology to their products may be cool. But employing people with disabilities and allow them to do the stuff they actually can do is what makes me happy. But yeah I think the frames are mostly welded in The Netherlands and Belgium. Maybe still some Taiwanese welded frames but they then finish the simple tack welds into proper welds. All painting, assembly etc is done here in The Netherlands.

I do agree that it is striking how China has so much economic power (and resources like important rare earth metals) that most western countries rather close their eyes and continue to do business with them rather than speak up against their human rights and environmental policies. Two things though. Not made in the US doesn't necessarily mean made in Asia. And made in Asia doesn't necessarily mean made in China. The other thing is that it hugely depends on the kind of product. Injection moulding, CNC machining etc are mostly automated processes so these by themselves wouldn't affect worker conditions. Actually a lot of injection moulding is done right here in Europe. Magura has a huge facility in Ulm nearby their HQ in Bad Urach (they no longer produce in Bad Urach) and they really don't want their advanced injection moulding know how to leave the country. Their Taiwanese plant does the metal stuff. Tacx over here also does all in house. It is the assembly that takes all the hard manual labour. Which is why when you buy a trainer or workstand from them you just get a plastic bag with parts and a manual. It is not doable for them to assemble all that in house. So they could either have that done in an Asian sweatshop or you could make some tea and take the time to assemble your new stuff yourself. I like that thinking. So yeah, we as consumers just need to put some thought in it. If it is an electronic device, there is most likely assembly involved which is done in a horribly noisy workshop. Carbon fibre frames is also mostly manual labour, same story. But my simple long drink glass? That's all automated. Doesn't matter where it is done. Once chemicals are involved though, you'll need to be cautious. That includes epoxy but also paint processes (including anodization of aluminium). Injection moulding of thermoplastics however doesn't give much waste. All trimmings go back into the hopper with no loss of quality. CNC companies may be proud of recycling all their swarf, but there is a lot more energy involved before it can be made into something usable whereas the waste from injection moulding can be reused on the spot.

TLBig Grin R; I got carried away about my new bike. Other than that, @jaame is correct but I'd like to add that it really depends on the product. The more manual labour involved or the more scary chemicals (including paint processes) the more we should be concerned about pulling it back to a country with regulations that are up to your own ethical standards. There sure was a need for a TLBig Grin R.
  • + 2
 @vinay: I agree with most of what you say. My point is kind of more along the lines of, if you keep giving money to a leader who wants to lead in a way that you probably don't agree with, it won't end well.
  • + 2
 @jaame: Alright, that's a good point, sorry for glossing over that. There are more than a few of those. Buying conflict minerals from Africa (lithium for batteries from Congo), rare earth metals (neodymium from China for powerful magnets for sustainable energy generators and electric vehicles and also some other mineral for touch screens), oil from Saudi Arabia. We've made ourselves horribly dependent on products but also raw materials from questionable regimes. Still of course we as consumers have the room to make our sensible and ethic decisions. And it is different for everyone. For me it really starts with "how much on the bleeding edge do I need to be?". And in that context, how much sense does carbon make for a simple rider who's working on manuals, front wheel pivots and actually is out riding to blow off excess energy? Yet I acknowledge that for some people it really is important so what GG is doing there does make sense. My initial response was mainly aimed at my perception (through PB comments) that North American riders buy so much into the carbon thing even when it doesn't make sense for them that they've been killing local production of metal frames. That said, I admit I'm still behind a computer screen and I'm probably not well informed. I never heard of REEB until Jeff Lenosky joined, so good to know companies like those are still around over there.

TL;DR: @jaame is right again. It isn't just about the complete products though. Even for many of the products made in a western country, raw materials are bought from questionable sources.
  • + 2
 @vinay: Only the Chinese Communist Party is getting close to a position of being able to possibly achieve world domination or global hegemony. It will happen before 2100, sooner if we keep buying 90% of our goods from China. I don't think that's a good idea myself. I mean, I know the Americans take a lot of shit for being obnoxious, talking too loudly in public places, chewing gum with their mouths open, referring to themselves in the third person etc.. but trust me, it's a lot better than what the Chinese can offer in a cultural sense.
  • + 0
 @jaame: "but trust me, it's a lot better than what the Chinese can offer in a cultural sense."

thats a hell of a bigoted statement *check yourself
  • + 2
 @ledude: have you ever lived in China? Or seen a Chinese tour group in an airport?
  • + 0
 @jaame: never lived in the China, but I'm familiar with what youre getting at. I've been back to my motherland 2x and I still wonder when and how the "Western" countries decided they were the arbiters of good taste and culture.

Not to mention that its a stretch to insult an entire race's culture off a topic of bicycle mfg. these kind of far stretching correlations and blanket statements of entire groups of people are straight up ignorant - just saying man..
  • + 67
 Waging Guerrilla warfare on the other manufacturers. Well done.
  • + 52
 It has to start somewhere, It has to start sometime.
What better place than here, what better time than now?
  • + 5
 @Boardlife69:
Ok, that was entirely appropriate. Lol
  • + 9
 @Boardlife69: I’m sure GG would agree with Rage on this. +1 man
  • + 49
 Went to the sold launch party tonight at the Marquis Theater in Denver. Couple of loud bands that rocked, beer, pizza, and crazy new carbon from an what has been an aluminum bike brand to this point. Hats off to Will and the crew if they actually have pulled this off!
  • + 4
 *sold out. Dammit
  • + 42
 I, for one, welcome our future robot overlords.
  • + 42
 They are going to sell the shit out of these.
  • + 7
 100%

Just wish they had a better export proposition.
  • + 4
 @Ktron: Even better would be to license this out to a factory in Europe (or build their own) to reduce export shipping.
  • + 1
 I hope so. They are really cool people who make amazing bikes. I dearly love my Megatrail.
  • + 38
 Never loved my aluminum megatrail more than now that it's an endangered species
  • + 31
 "market disrupter" achieved
  • + 29
 I think other bike manufacturers may be knocking at GG's door. "Hey guys, I got a case of beer. Let's hang out at your factory. You mind if I take a few photos?"
  • + 9
 GG could keep their advantage for a year or two, then start licensing the tech and manufacturing process as a sub or side business before one of the big manufacturing players copies them.
  • + 2
 @NickMT: I have a feeling Yeti may soon be made by GG.
  • + 21
 @Boardlife69: so that Yeti can up the price 30-50% for Made in USA?
  • + 28
 @NotNamed: I really want gg to release a made in America turquoise color just to rile up the yeti people
  • + 2
 @Boardlife69: Honestly, that would please me if GG's bikes end up having being built well. I just recently purchased a Yeti and this article made me rethink my purchase on a bike I truly love. It would be great to see Yeti, who touts their status as a Colorado-based company, to end up in the US
  • + 2
 @NotNamed: Lol, Yeti would do that. What I mean is if GG plays their cards right they could expand to be a contract manufacturer where other frames are made by GG. Another Colorado company that does this is Never Summer who makes snowboards and even skis for other companies. So my gut feeling is GG may end up building frames for companies like Yeti, Intense, etc. Or they license out the tech.
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69: During the stream, they stated that had a patent in process. Not sure if it's on treatment, layup, mould but on a way, the frame was being made.
  • + 5
 @NickMT: Exactly. Not to take anything away from their bikes, but their innovation is the real story. Licensing their technology to other companies is pure gold for their company and won't have to make bikes if they don't want to. This is quite big for the bike industry.
  • + 2
 @Boardlife69: what companies does NS make boards and skis for? this is the first i've heard of that (though i don't follow skiing news like i do mtb)
  • + 4
 @xeren: Icelantic is made in the Never Summer factory, might be more that I don't know about.
  • + 27
 Just one use case ...

You buy a Smash 145mm travel 29” with a 160mm MRP fork (relatively easily adjustable travel)

You buy a rear triangle for 120mm travel and a 120mm shock.

You now have two completely different bikes in one.

My mind is blown. Modular and “future proof”, made in USA, and at a steal of a price.
  • + 3
 As a Banshee Phantom (105mm rear travel) owner with a 140mm fork, this makes me happy. I like playing lego bikes.

I've run mine as a 29 front 27.5x2.8 rear as well. Rips that way too!
  • + 29
 Bottle cage placement is prime.
  • + 5
 Yeah, I think I'd only trust something like a Fabric or Fidlock up there. But at least it's there! You can always use it for something else.
  • + 25
 Let me tell you all about my next bike...
  • + 24
 GG just won the pinkbike comments section. I've never seen such positivity here!
  • + 20
 Dang. A tiny bit sad about no more alloy (wait, no, that means I might get a used alloy for cheap... I'm happy Wink ), but WOW. This ain't shots fired. This is an artillery bombardment, covered by an airstrike, dropping a nuke. Wink All aboard the hype train! Eek Drool Salute
  • + 1
 It doesn't say they are dropping ally frames (or did I miss that part?)
  • + 9
 @Patrick9-32: they are dropping aluminum frames
  • + 4
 @Patrick9-32: but keeping the steel! Pedalhead partyyyyy
  • + 2
 These seem like they're only going to be maybe half a pound lighter than the aluminum versions. I would be happy to get an aluminium frame if they're out there, but the carbon looks like a really nice bike in and of itself.
  • + 16
 Goddamnit, I just bought a Sentinel over a Smash, in part because the Smash geo was just a *little* off from what I wanted (a slacker STA, steeper HTA). Smash Carbon would have been exactly what I was looking for, with tons of tinkering options, and made in USA.
  • + 7
 I'm very much with you on those conclusions. At least the Transition team are a super rad, rider owned bike company. But yeah, I want Pole geometry, American made aluminum or Carbon.
  • + 9
 N+1 my friend.
  • + 4
 That adjustable Headset looks damn nice. The only thing I don't like, is that all their different carbon bikes now looks pretty much the same.
  • + 5
 @OneTrustMan: that's because they are the same, just different shocks and rear triangles. Makes sense for efficiencies. Paint and graphic treatment could go a long way to giving each model a distinct personality. But it seems they're all for mixing and matching.

I haven't been this intrigued over a bike launch in a long, long time.

Now, if they can just hire some better graphic designers. Wink
  • + 4
 I feel the same way about the Yeti I just bought. Still super happy about it, but it would have been great to go with a truly US-based company
  • - 5
flag Craigso (Jan 31, 2019 at 8:56) (Below Threshold)
 Don't worry transition rides much better then the smash. And anyone who don't agree has never rode them back to back.
  • + 2
 @Craigso: I do really, really like how the Sentinel rides. And I did find the Trail Pistol to be firm as hell when I rode that, so thanks for cheering me up a bit.
  • + 15
 Such a stark contrast to that other Colorado company. In house manufacturing, creating jobs, with arguably the lowest frame prices. That other Colorado company; some of the highest frame prices, Vietnam production (with some of the lowest labour costs in Asia). Nice work GG!
  • + 17
 IMHO this is the hidden gem: Carbon Frame w/ Push Eleven6 = $3075. Top notch coil w/ a carbon platform for a reasonable price.
  • + 2
 good eye
  • + 20
 Did not expect that
  • + 14
 Great story and a great way to bring things under back to your own country and take full control, I work for a company that makes earphones, we too are now making our own models in house using 3D printing, meaning we now control everything and can manage stocks and re-developments so much better - not having to play ball with a third party factory is just a massive releif on every level. Good luck guys
  • + 6
 Agreed Makded. Here in the Silicon Valley, the protection of IP is a major concern. It seems like many are finding their IP ripped off to high heaven overseas ... Namely China. It also plays into a bigger factor which is automation which eliminates the biggest cost factor, labor. Don't think for a second that Ibis, Specialized, and Trek, etc, etc. are not taking note. Want to guess how many would choose to eliminate overseas production if they could? This could get interesting.
  • + 2
 @Pkadillak: All good points.
Eliminating the hassles of overseas production such as quality control and order quantity should work out quite well for GG. It looks like these bikes took a massive amount of effort by GG to get where they are.
  • + 2
 @Pkadillak:

Don't get us started on the factories and production, costs us so much to get a production run done, from the qty we have to order to the fact we have to send someone over to physically watch all stages of production. Some of these factories are pure charlatans, they will use less solder, swap out parts, steal parts for their own late night productions .. they will always find ways to save money . for them, not us, QC would be non-existent - also, ripping off and IP - does not matter where you are, they will always find a way to copy.

I find it a shame that reducing labour costs is a thing - end of the day we want jobs for people, its great we are bringing production back to our own countries, but we only want to do that when we can create automated systems and not have to worry about labour costs, which was one of the main reason for going abroad in first place .. crazy
  • + 14
 Just got home from the release party. Almost bought a Smash last year... Placing preorder now. Yeeeeaaah!
  • + 3
 I don't doubt that you'll love it!
  • + 11
 This is huge. May not be apparent to everyone , but this is an enormous amount of work , even just to get the grant ! These GG guys & gals (maybe guy-gals or gal-guys?) must have been working their asses off on this for the past couple of years. Very exciting to see automated layup being used in mtb...can't wait until the robots can lay up one piece front triangles , then we can get away from pushing manufacturing to the developing world just to save $$. Also apparent ,alot of thought has gone into the details of this modular frame system , no easy task to execute. It is looking like GG may be leading the industry in some ways , very cool.
  • + 2
 Yeah, I'm sure it took a huge amount of effort on their part to make all this happen. I hope they sell a crap-ton of bikes. I own a GG Megatrail and it's quite evident that they take quality and engineering very seriously.
  • + 10
 This really makes me wonder how brands like Yeti, Pivot etc. can charge such a huge premium for a frame made overseas. Amazing bikes but over $3k for a frame? Fuuuhk no. Good work GG- hope this is a sign to the rest of the industry that they CAN bring carbon manufacturing back to the US without gouging the consumer...
  • + 10
 To be honest, that just sounds far too good to be true. There is no such thing as a free lunch, and this story as presented here is straight out of a fairy tale:
Small crew "come across" a magic aerospace material, then within a short time they invent, build and streamline several new production technologies, have themselves a custom robot build AND all of that, at first try, results in lower priced products than anyone else can offer?

There are pros to this approach, but there will also be some cons too. I mean aside from the aluminium rear triangle and cheap RS shock, which suddenly makes the comparison with Giant not look quite so stellar anymore.
  • + 1
 And no R&D costs??
  • + 3
 Yes, it does read a bit like "These plucky entrepreneurs are totally disrupting a multi-billion dollar industry" clickbait. To your point, composite manufacturing is a pretty mature industry and it's not like Giant wouldn't jump on any new technology advantages.

Wondering if the $250,000 grant stretches far enough to knock a couple hundred bucks off the first few hundred frames once the tooling costs are covered.
  • + 10
 They are also doing direct sales, and they don't sponsor riders. That saves a lot of money.
  • + 12
 I didn't hear any fairy tale in the video or their presentation last night. They took a material Boeing developed, figured out how to apply its construction to hollow tubes, and started making bikes that way. They're faster to market because they're smaller and everything happens in-house, so there's no trips back and forth to Asia or waiting for shipping containers full of bikes to arrive. They spent a couple years refining the process and figuring out how to apply known techniques in a novel way (automated carbon placement, higher curing temps) to make bikes locally, quickly.
  • + 6
 The con is that they invested a bunch of money into a process, and they priced the frames competitively to sell them to recoup the cost over a period of time.

Giant (and by extension all the other brands that rely on Giant for manufacturing) doesn't do this because their carbon frame manufacturing is WAY larger scale, and would take a lot of investment to implement, not to mention possibility of ITAR compliance of exporting composite stuff overseas. They have their process in place, and they make money of up-charging the carbon builds.

If GG starts massively putting a dent into carbon frames, manufacturers are going to take note and adjust. In the same way all direct order brands put a dent into LBS brand sales, so now you have Giant drop their base Trance to $2000 to keep it competitive.
  • + 3
 @skelldify: maybe they poached some know-how from an aerospace company. and they did get a grant from Colorado.
  • + 6
 @phops: Thing is, there is still a pretty major market out there that buys American because American. Plus, it's pretty rad being able to ride with the owners and designers of the bikes you ride, as you can still do with GG.

As I mentioned elsewhere, GG also doesn't pay team salaries, doesn't build kids bikes or "cheap bikes", and stays pretty focused on a small product line. That's gotta save money in terms of staffing.
  • + 2
 @Jnicholz: Forgot about that small business grant.
  • + 4
 I get your skepticism, but most real innovation always comes from startup companies. The reality is that there is not a lot of incentive for large companies to change unless it is forced upon them.
  • + 2
 You don't have to get the cheap RS shock. You can custom order whatever shock works best for you. Yes, it has an aluminum rear triangle, but have you ever had a close look at their welding work? It's a few steps above any mass production bike that I've seen.

This wasn't magic. Those guys very hard worked for many years to make these bikes work.
  • + 4
 You can slap a different shock on there if you prefer something else. Fox DPX2 Elite is a $200 or get an 11.6 if you are feeling rich. The builds are pretty much fully customizable at reasonable costs.
  • + 2
 I think is not so hard if you got the right pieces to put together the puzzle. I saw a few videos about 787 dreamliner, 20 years ago Boeing wasted a lot of money to develop the plane and tech needed to put it together. To me make sense some other industries can benefit using it in the US. This is the future I think,this is far more flexible and you can do it at home. And this is the right time,China&US US&China tax thing,so in the near future it could be a must to have in house knowledge to build a CF bike. My actual bike has a molded/injected cf rocker,like a plastic rc model.
  • + 11
 A sincere and deserved congratulations to Guerilla Gravity. In an industry plagued by shitty margins and shittier attitudes, this kind of innovation and damn-the-torpedoes action is refreshing.
  • + 11
 Cheaper ways of making carbon is interesting but we'd rather focus our resources on hub and standards innovation by adding state-of-the-art mm to these components - Big Company Brand Manager.
  • + 9
 Well, time to for the "I wish stuff was still made in the USA" and "Asian carbon frames are bad" people to put their money where their mouth is. Overall I applaud true innovation like this from Guerilla Gravity and other companies like Vorsprung who go for it with their own products. I do have to wonder about the durability testing of these new frames considering they're a small company.
  • + 7
 They have a hammer on a rope! What more do they need?
  • + 2
 I know they've been having some people put some serious hours onto the protos. Once I replace my hardtail all my bikes will be MUSA.
  • + 12
 GG, definitely will be my next bike
  • + 2
 I love my Megatrail and I'm sure you'll be beyond stoked to get a GG bike.
  • + 9
 “300% tougher.” What exactly are the units they’re using to measure this “toughness.” Sounds made up to me. I don’t think they’re referring to Rockwell Hardness.
  • + 4
 The normal standard unit is impact energy per unit area, without detectable damage. But that discussion is probably beyond what is still a press release. Picture of a sledgehammer tells the story much quicker.
  • + 9
 rockwell hardness, the porn guy? i think the new frames can stand up to 3 ChuckNorrises. that is the unit.
  • + 3
 @savagelake: I think you mean 0.3 Chuck Norris's. Nothing can stand up to a whole Chuck Norris's!
  • + 1
 If its 300% tougher, why wouldnt the frame be 300% lighter?
  • + 3
 @guylovesbike:
In CFRP laminates, the toughness comes from the resin that bonds the layers of fibers together(which they have), but the strength and stiffness comes from those carbon fibers themselves. So in order to meet whatever strength and stiffness requirements they have, the need to have a certain amount of carbon fibers, which means a certain number of plies, and you don't want to go below that.

Given that this is a brand new carbon product, they're probably erring on the side of going to heavy, rather than running the risk of frame failures.
  • + 11
 This sounds potentially revolutionary. I'm absolutely psyched for these guys. Well done.
  • + 6
 There is a company in Mukilteo, WA that makes robots that do this sort of thing for aircraft companies. I have to wonder if they might not be making sometime fun for once! Lots of mountain bike riders at (un) said robotics aerospace company.

Props GG, Love to see you grow and get comfortable with the geometry times! Can I get a little bit more slack and steep, but made by you? Loves, the entire Westcoast!
  • + 5
 So which american fibers do they use?
If they use SGL fibers made in Moses Lake they would massively reduce environmental implications because the factory solely uses renewable energy. It is possible that this factory is only producing materials for BMW though...
  • + 2
 According to vicious rumor, yes SGL is their supplier, and possibly out of Moses. Take with as much salt as you think appropriate though.
  • + 5
 Yes the kit needed to swap builds with the modular option won't be a small investment, but it will still be cheaper than buying a second bike, which is the alternative. I think it's a brilliant idea and something I would totally do myself.
  • + 7
 Happy for them, but bummed they are no longer offering full Aluminum. I was going to get a Megatrail in March...but thats my luck.
  • + 7
 Don't worry, there's a bunch of nearly new aluminum GG bikes that will soon be on sale.
  • + 5
 So happy for you guys been riding my megatrail gen 1 for years now this is a company that’s these guys have built from the ground up on small hand made principal the fact that they have figured out how to stay small and produce a top notch product is mind blowing I can attest to the fact that they stand behind there products the sky is the limit and I’m stoked for you Will Matt and the whole GG crew
  • + 5
 To connect the dots for anyone curious they're using an out of autoclave process with a high toughness thermoplastic resin. Good for them, that's the future of composites where cost matters.

Note that 300% tougher (impact resistance if you will) does not mean 300% stronger. Toughness is a resin dominated property, strength is fiber dominated.
  • + 5
 This is SERIOUSLY impressive stuff. Great, innovative and bold engineering and from such a small company. I hope the technology proves itself and they reap the rewards.
For the first time ever, as someone living outside the States, Guerrilla Gravity are on my radar. That says something Smile
  • + 8
 GG - Atherton's , hold my beer.....
  • + 4
 Fuck yeah. I love Guerrilla Gravity. This looks like a really good way to rock the mtb industry, and I'm super proud of GG. I hope they start to level out the breakdown of market share. Also proves that making stuff east asia is not always cheaper, easier, or better, it's just what the people in power are doing right now. Once the trendy kids get tired of it they'll leave China and Taiwan behind like the Europe left behind the beaver hat in the 1800s. However, I still want an Alloy Smash and Mega for myself, not sure how I will pull that off now
  • + 4
 I think any thing that we can do to stop dependence on asian manufacturing is a step in the right direction. This also may just be me but as an american I want to buy american made stuff. I do agree that we need to find a way to recycle space plastic. Keep in mind that this is just the beginning! They are going to keep refining this process. This is just the very first product they have made with this new setup. I can't wait to see how GG does in comparison to Atherton bikes with their customizable additive manufacturing. Exciting times we live in folks.
  • + 5
 Hell yea! I was already dead set on an aluminum GG Megatrail as my next frame set. Wasn't expecting this at all. Well done guys! Hoping I'll be able to demo one this summer in Colorado.
  • + 4
 I'm really pumped about this. I was sold on a Cannondale Jekyll 29, but I love the modular nature of this. You can just change the seat stay and get a longer stroke shock then boom you have a different bike capable of park rides or enduro. Go back tot he short stays and shorter stroke shock then you have a cross countryish/short travel trail bike. They also do both shop direct and consumer direct so you don't have to cut out your LBS unless you want to. Really exciting.
  • + 6
 Impact resistant affordable carbon frames are all good but shouldn't they be applying the same process in to making rims like right now?
  • + 2
 LOL! Yeah, that would be really cool. Maybe down the road at some point they can apply their technology to rims too.
  • + 7
 There goes buying a new truck.
  • + 3
 I bought a Shred Dogg last year because I liked that I could buy another shock and have a Megatrail, it was made in the USA, I could upgrade whatever components I wanted, I could even pick the color. In short, they gave me a lot of options which is why I can’t believe they are taking away the aluminum option. They had a niche market and judging by the wait times they were doing pretty well. This is disappointing. If forced to pick between aluminum and made in US I’m not sure what I will do next time. Hopefully they will rethink this.
  • + 2
 "I could buy another shock and have a Megatrail, it was made in the USA, I could upgrade whatever components I wanted, I could even pick the color."

you can still do all those things tho
  • + 2
 @arrowheadrush: I don’t see the added value in carbon.
  • + 3
 This is amazing. It's very interesting period of MTB tech development and big boys are getting kicked by new kids. . Actually, we should be able to automatically layup carbon strand using the right combination of CNC and additive manufacturing principles. Simpler suspension arms, one-piece rear triangles, single piecee fork crown-steerer units !!!. Things are getting interesting.
  • + 3
 Everyone complaining about the price need to go to the site and build the bike. A "Race" build has XO1 w Carbon rims... Now Build a "Ride 1". do some pretty sweet changes and you are $5,500 w GX and a sold build .( X2, Grip 2 Fork, carbon cranks and other sweet things! Not everyone need the Race. Pretty impressive in my eyes... Seeing my SB150 w GX and Factory Float X2 and Grip 2 was $7600... and cheaper factory wheels and stem! So a 2k saving or almost the same bike. Just cause they offer the fancy bike, doesn't mean that we NEED that build. Most of us will be just fine in the lower 1 build. And we all know, its not the bike, its the rider! Just my option...
  • + 3
 I envision a day in the future when the GG crew can take the 10 minute drive down Colfax Ave to NREL (National Renewable Energy Lab) in Golden to pickup some bio-mass sourced carbon-fiber, sneak in a Apex hot lap, then back to shredquarters to "bake" a Smash made from plants. Bio-mass sourced carbon-fiber would be cool www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/66386.pdf
  • + 3
 It's oddly weird on here that normally, on any given day, we bitch and complain about carbon frames sucking, being overpriced plastic, bad for the enviroment(like anyone has ever recycled a frame before), cracking, delaminating, and the list goes on........But in one day, GG eliminates their beloved Aluminum frame bikes, only makes carbon frames now, and..... complete harmony on PB. Its like GG just painlessly converted everyone to carbon. Something is definatley afoot, at the Circle K.
  • + 4
 Well, this report about a company figuring out how to make them cheaper, better for the environment (actually recyclable and using less material/extra supply chain energy), and tougher. I suspect that's why everyone is impressed by this.
  • + 4
 Yeah, because they're sick bikes, and they've truly done something different and potentially revolutionary. I've been a GG loyalist for several years now, and I never, ever thought I would say "yay carbon", but because of their process and after experiencing the bikes, I am sold.

Sure the common concerns with carbon still exist, but the point is that their manufacturing process, new carbon composite, and the toughness of the frame, in addition to the fact that they are actively working towards recycling plans AND have a low cost/made in the USA, will hopefully eliminate these with the carbon they are introducing.
  • + 2
 Likewise I am baffled at the response. As someone else cited, Specialized used the same front triangle for multilple wheelsizes before, and got crushed for it. All they are doing is presenting the same marketing bs that we get from Spec, Trek etc and now it's fine and dandy?? It's like eveyone turned their brain off all of a sudden. They don't even have frames ready to sell! 4-6 weeks out already. And that's only one size! These guys got bunch of grants that paid for the upfront costs for carbon process, and if they don't sell enough bikes, they are screwed. They should keep selling aluminum, and just add the carbon to their lineup. Then the risk is distributed. I don't think this is going to turn out well.
  • + 3
 Powdercoating is a great option for bikes because if it's scratched, it can usually be buffed out as the shine is in the material itself... not just on the top layer like clearcoating or anodizing. I didn't realize you could powdercoat carbon fiber as the powder adhered to the worksurface by way of electric current passing through it. It's great if they've figured out how to do this. And it is more environmentally friendly for sure... much less use of thinners, hazardous chemicals, waste, etc. Any excess powder that is oversprayed is usually captured and recycled.
  • + 2
 Apparently carbon fiber is pretty electrically conductive. Saw an article saying that certain carbon nano tubes are more conductive then copper.
  • + 3
 Congrats on the grant funding, and the slick new frames!
They look tough, and I applaud the versatility built in. As we get pickier as riders, you have brought back even more adjustability to help us find the best possible fit.
Absolute Rippers! Can't wait to demo one, let me know if you need any Moab testing done! Love Y'all, keep on killing it~
  • + 3
 What will happen to bottom bracket height between models?

For example the Smash and Megatrail both have 160mm travel front, ~64.5 deg HTA, ~77 deg STA, but one has 29" wheels and the other 27.5". Won't the BB be height be vastly different between the two?

I'm not hating... Just honestly curious how that will work.
  • + 1
 since you swap rear triangle parts between wheel sizes/travel options, that will surely adjust bb height
  • + 1
 @lys3rg0: Certainly a different rear triangles could raise/lower the rear end to compensate but that would significantly alter the HTA and STA. The fact that the Smash/Megatrail have the same front triangle, same front travel, and very similar angles would suggest that the 29er would have a way higher BB.

Unless there is some other trick going on that I'm missing (hence the question).
  • + 3
 @bobshort: They have the bb heights on the geo chart...
  • + 1
 @ZappBrannigan: Cool. There weren't up yet when I checked earlier but I see them now. Geo charts shows 29er Smash with a 140mm fork and the 27.5 Megatrail with a 170mm fork. Mystery solved.
  • + 2
 article stated taller 15mm lower headset cup for 27.5
  • + 8
 USA
  • - 2
 I didn't know Obama was on Pinkbike to downvote this comment. Smile

I'm going for a downvoting record here..bring it on.
  • + 3
 Time will tell how well these hold up. The real testing takes place once real people are using them. The other down fall of carbon is the cost of repair. Yes it can be fixed but the local trusted shop with the most experience starts at 500.00 for any repair without paint. So I'll stick to alloy and steel old school style for pennies on these dollars.
  • + 2
 Pretty bummed at no more aluminum from GG. Was gonna get a Smash this spring, because it was aluminum and awesome. I think they are underestimating the competition in the carbon world. They are taking a big risk completely changing their position in the market. They were making progressive alu bikes that were a good value. Now they are making carbon bikes that are the same as every other carbon bike, and the value is gone. For only 200 bucks more I can get an entry level carbon Santa Cruz with lifetime warranty, a full shop network of support, and many many years of carbon frame experience. Why would I buy their bikes anymore?

Warranty is a big issue. I won't buy a carbon frame without lifetime warranty anymore. GG warranty reads like a bunch of marketing BS, and in the end appears to only be one year with crash replacement pricing after that. And there is no way I am buying a first year release from a company that has never done carbon before. That headset adjustment systems smells like a lot of creaking to me. And i bet that GG will raise their prices quickly in the next few years, to cover the huge jump in warranty claims they will see compared to aluminum.

I think all the business development grant money these guys have gotten has skewed the normal business evolution process. My prediction is GG loses their ass on carbon. Like in ten years they aren't in business any more.
  • + 4
 Carbon Santa Cruz frame is $3300... And warranties are always at the discretion of the company. Bikes, like anything else ever made, have a lifespan. You're high if you think you're going to buy a bike with a "lifetime warranty" and have your frame replaced for free anytime something goes wrong for "life". They'll probably make you pay for a discounted frame at some point, only Santa Cruz doesn't explicitly say that while GG does.
  • + 3
 Hardly the same as everyone else. Name one company that has a modular frame design that isn't absurdly expensive (The ONLY one that comes to mind is what used to be called Robot bikes and is now apparently owned by the Atherton's). No other company is doing that. I don't think everyone is seeing the big picture. People need to stop getting hung up on the material. They are still just as progressive as they were before only now you have a lot more options.
  • + 2
 Great looking bikes. Only complaint is the offset rear spacing still. I have multiple bikes and the ability to move wheels from bike to bike is really important so I can ride if a wheel is damaged, wrong tires, etc. Might not be a big deal to run 3mm off with a standard wheel, but would limit the max tire sizes.
  • + 6
 Dope. A bike that encourages bike nerds to be bike nerds.
  • + 2
 Anyone else noticed Mike saying "check out GG's new carbon fibre frames, the Smash and the Trail Pistol" at the beginning of the video, as if the Megatrail and Shred Dogg weren't there or at least weren't getting the new frame? He literally ignored the existence of 27.5" bikes in GG's line up in the opening sentence. The 29" hype train in the media is real and everyone saying it's just more choice is in for a surprise when in 2 years there is no choice and mtb is exclusively a sport for tall people.

Only last night I went on the Commencal website for example, as I'm considering the new Meta AM. There are TWO 27.5" Metas with no real high end option (the "top" model is an NX/GX build, though admittedly still nice for the price), the lower tier hasn't even got a dropper (!) and no frame only option. 29"? SEVEN builds covering all reasonable price points, coil or air, Fox or RS and three finishes available for the frame only option. Shame my choices are so limited as at 5'9" no amount of marketing is going to magically make a 29er the better bike for me.

At least Paul Aston had the guts to look from someone else's perspective in the DH bike shootout (even though he's exactly the height that warrants a 29er) and say it like it is about rider hight/wheel size. To be fair, he's also one of the only guys who really criticise bikes and set high expectations to go with stupidly high prices as he rightly points out about the Session.
  • + 4
 This is simply amazing. And the fact that a small company did clearly tells something about people behind it. Really really the best news I read for a long time.
  • + 2
 I will have a Trail Pistol in royal blue powder coat and (perhaps) a thin orange pinstripe on the top tube. Then I will proceed to ride the tyres off it.... again and again and again...

Also...For Sale! One somewhat slightly used 2014 Giant Anthem...
  • + 2
 My buddy is a gg ambassador, so when Pinkbike,vital, and gg came to Austin, I heard about it and inserted myself for a piece of the action. I met the whole crew, and saw these bikes in person. Wow. They are really stunning. If I were on top of my shit, I would have a YouTube video ready to roll of the day I got to ride with these dudes and see these new bikes in action. I was able to meet them at spider mountain in the morning, then ride with them at cat mountain in Austin proper. It was a sweet day, and I’ll have the video on my channel ASAP - (as the crow flies)
  • + 2
 I'm guessing that this is a thermoplastic carbon composite. Probably no robots involved. No resin in the traditional sense. Think of it like a prepreg and replace the thermoset epoxy with an engineering thermoplastic. It's a fairly stiff sheet that is formed with heat + pressure or vacuum. Based on the surface finish of the finished part that's what my money is on....

www.tencatecomposites.com/products/thermoplastic
  • + 2
 I was waiting till next year to buy an ALUMINUM guerilla gravity mega trail, welded in the U.S.A. by a human being but they just shot that plan all to hell. Guerilla Gravity can keep their plastic bike made by robots, I don't care how inexpensive they make it.
  • + 5
 Bravo gg, shaking things up in a very big way.
  • + 3
 Now there's a dilemma. How do i tell my wife that i need another bike?
Congrats GG, the Bike and how it is made looks very interesting, you got my attention!
  • + 2
 Buy the black one and don't say anything
  • + 3
 "new bike? what? oh, that old thing? i've had that for years"
  • + 3
 Alrighty kids its "impact toughness" not "impact strength" Strength is a different property.

Either way congratus GG this is so cool to see!
  • + 1
 Here's my theory

So you print/sew the bike frame with a robot arm like Arevo did but instead printing two sides like a clamshell :-

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvN229r0uNY#action=share


You then put each half in a mould, put the bladders in, close the mould up, heat up the mould and pressurise the bladders and vacuum the mould. The warmed up soft 3d printed frame then gets pushed to the outside and achieves a nice smooth finish just like a normal carbon part.

That's my theory anyway!
  • + 5
 Yes GG you make me happy.
  • + 1
 Great story. Thanks for that. Great options for customization. But unfortunately only place for a small bottle on top tube.
I think some frame manufacturing will come back to US/Europe from Taiwan/Asia because of flexibility/warranty issues.
I wish you great success!
  • + 4
 Video about the carbon fiber:

Will from GG: “literally anything”

Levy: “mhmm”
  • + 3
 Ugh, I know. I gotta stop mhmm'ing everthing haha
  • + 6
 @mikelevy: in your defense, I assume you dont have a background in video or presenting and between these and the field test, you have a natural skill for it (coming from someone who works in marketing, video, photo production) and have more screen charisma than just about any other reviewer from all the major pubs.

The videos were awesome, nice work guys!
  • + 2
 @mikelevy: Just having a laugh man! The video and article were great. Jealous you got to ride the new bikes already.
  • + 1
 Reading this I was expecting a punchline. I'm very fond of raw aluminium frames but also like carbon. The versatility and price are very attractive, as is the claimed impact resistance.

Now, different length chain stays for each size (especially XL) and reasonable shipping to Straya and I'm keen.
  • + 1
 How can you not like these guys at GG! You can argue all day long about who has the cheapest Carbon / Aluminum frames but one has to give huge "thumbs up" to a company that is giving you up to 4 distinct builds into one universal triangle. Think about an average rider with varied terrain like we have in the SF Bay. Dig a shorter travel bike for 70% of the rides and the option to make a Full on Enduro for the other 30%. Given the angels, you may say it's like getting an SB130 and 150 in one. Ibis Ripmo only more versatile? Time will tell, but US made bikes and a true Quiver Killer style. Big winner for the consumer.
  • + 5
 Next fame. For. Sure. Also nice MST3K reference with that frame maker.
  • + 4
 Small innovative American companies for the win! Thats a lot of adjustability in one bike, freaking awesome!
  • + 4
 I wonder if GG will ever be available in the EU... Import tax from the US is tough to swallow.
  • + 6
 Shorelines in the UK has been selling GG in the EU for over a year. Pricing comparable with the $US price when you factor if shipping and taxes.
  • + 2
 I’m so glad I didn’t procrastinate on buying my Shred Dogg last year. I hope it lasts because I’m not interested in a carbon frame. I really liked what GG had going on until now.
  • + 0
 What's wrong with their carbon that you dislike it so much?
  • + 1
 @NWBasser: The biggest problem is the cost. I don’t give a damn about weight so I’m not going to spend the extra money to save a pound or two. The other problem is I think it’s inferior. I’ve never seen an aluminum head tube get completely blown out like I have carbon. I’ve had crashes or pitched the bike mid air where the bike is bouncing down the trail and hit a tree. I have to believe that aluminum can take that a hell of a lot better than carbon.
  • + 1
 just to provide some clarity, there was only about a $300 price increase when comparing apples to apples. For example, the Ride 1 last year was GX 11 speed with a e-13 cassette, DT Swiss 1900 and Guide brakes. This year, a Ride 1 is full GX Eagle, Code R brakes and XM 1501s, and a carbon front triangle..
  • + 1
 I want this! No more crap builds from big companies for the average person. Not locked into a certain build? Mix and Match.....yes please! Oh and LOL Pole bikes how do you feel about giving up carbon now? Hahaha
  • + 1
 I love it! Reminds me of the days we were throwing triple crowns and 24in rims with 3.0s on hard tail free ride frames. Buying the frame is just a means to your personalization of it.
  • + 2
 Excellent to see and hear!!! Keep the build quality in house for besr QC and support the local economy! Great work, when i shift to fiber frames, these will be the one.
  • + 4
 That bike really ties the room together. Fuckin a....
  • + 2
 My guess is that this frame is made with Sheet Molding Compound or Bulk Molding Compound. I wonder if their new carbon fames are.lighter than their old alloy ones.
  • + 2
 .6 lbs lighter, according to the launch last night.
  • + 3
 I wasn't interested in carbon before but now I am. More power to GG. Respect.
  • + 3
 Damn them and their awesome bikes!... my friend got a Megatrail, it is so super kick ass, and it made me jealous.
  • + 5
 Way to go Uncle Sam!
  • + 2
 the silly thing about the interview is that that giant yacht in the background is on a lake the size of a parking lot. very cool otherwise
  • + 3
 Way to go GG, making CO proud! ...now who wants to buy an '18 YT Jeffsy so I can justify a new Smash?
  • + 5
 Spider Mountain?
  • + 2
 Will we (the people that own aluminum frames) still be able to get rears that fit? I was looking forward to getting a Shred Dogg rear for my Smash.
  • + 1
 The new stays look good! Wouldn't be a bad way to get a Smash though I wanted a new front triangle, mines getting beat up
  • + 5
 GG smashed with this one
  • + 1
 So is this the exact same weight as the old, Al Smash? Using the weight from Pinkbike's AL smash review vs the estimated weight on GG's website makes it seem like they aren't losing any weight at all in going carbon.
  • + 4
 These guys are onto something. I’m super impressed.
  • + 1
 If nothing else, GG has managed to make a great looking frame. Something far too many other bike manufacturers haven’t yet figured out. And if it looks right, it’ll ride right.
  • + 1
 This is so progressive and awesome. Props to GG for keeping things domestic. If they can give these things a decent 5+ year warranty they are going to have some winners.
  • + 1
 It's got my attention for sure! I wish I could have had a hand in the branding side of things but all in all a solid bike to own!
  • + 2
 Can you cut the carbon out of that little triangle where the seat tube and top tube meet? It's driving me crazy!!!!!
  • + 1
 This is awesome! Great to hear they acquired this technology before the larger brands did. Their frames look great. I wonder if there will be a DH model offered one day?
  • + 2
 Knocks the door at Boeing factory: "excuse me sir, can I have your carbon fiber leftovers?"
  • + 2
 damn...this is a contender for my next bike. theyre being made 3 miles from my house and at a hell of a pricepoint.
  • + 1
 Not needing a frame anytime soon, but this will most likely be my next purchase when I’m in the market.. American made Brutha!!!
  • + 1
 So, how soon will this new resin tech be applied to carbon rims? 300% more impact resistant? Less expensive? That sounds like win-win to me.
  • + 2
 GG wins. Changing the industry forever. Quick, everyone make stronger frames before my current carbon frame implodes.
  • + 2
 Well I think I just found my next bike and their shop is a 15 min. drive away. ,|,,|
  • + 2
 Awesome read PB and way to go GG! Big congrats and best of luck keeping up with the orders about to flow in!
  • + 2
 Does it use a standard/traditional Offset fork or does it use a newer short offset fork??
  • + 1
 also interested
  • + 1
 they said during the launch that they don’t see a big diff between the two. as for what u get when u order, i don’t think it was mentioned.
  • + 1
 Reduced offset is standard but I ordered mine with a 51mm offset
  • + 3
 Nooo! Don't stop the alloy frames!!
  • + 3
 that's what I call a game changer....
  • + 2
 I was set on getting an SB150 as my next bike to supplement my Scout, but the Smash is looking more like it now...
  • + 1
 300%%%%%%%%%%%...WHAT! I expect everyone to be riding GG at the bike park this summer. Why would you not buy this bike. Did I say 300% stronger!!!
  • + 1
 this looks great, but, I still don't get the hate on alu bikes.. recycling should be a priority for every bike manufacturer..
  • + 1
 ...Anyone find out if they're gonna poke out the Carbon from the Seat tube brace? Looks funky to have it plugged up, and it's a nice handhold when ya need it.
  • + 0
 Whats with haters calling carbon bikes "plastic".... Why aren't the aluminum bikes you love so much "tin cans"?

Quit being dumb, un-clever, and unoriginal. Carbon bikes are carbon, aluminum bikes are aluminum.
  • + 3
 Well, CFRP = carbon fiber reinforced plastic/polymer. So there's some truth to that.

But the bike industry in general is stupid when it comes to names, take everyone calling aluminum "alloy." Alloy just means a mix of metals and other elements to do useful things. Steel is an alloy too, as is all the titanium used in the industry, but for some reason people thing alloy = only aluminum.
  • + 3
 Because carbon bikes are a type of plastic and aluminium is not tin. That's why.
  • + 3
 Gorgeous bike, but hate to see there is no option for full aluminum.
  • + 3
 I'm throwing the devil horns, awesome stuff GG.
  • + 2
 Can't believe Im saying this but I'm kinda bummed i just got a carbon Sentinel...
  • + 3
 I love the cable routing idea just brilliant!!
  • + 0
 Aesthetically speaking, in my opinion, the geo is average. The company name, logo, and graphics, however, I could certainly do without. Might not matter for some folks but it definitely matters for me
  • + 3
 That is a beautiful bicycle!
  • + 1
 So, given the the dirty business that is carbon manufacturing, how does this new methadology compare with traditional carbon lay-up processes?
  • + 1
 Would definitely be on the short list, but the seat tube length of 457mm in size M means it's for people with longer legs than me Frown
  • + 2
 457mm for size M is 2018 geo/sizing. Website is not fully consistent yet. 2019 size 2 has a 400mm seat tube; 2019 size 3 has a 430 mm seat tube.
  • + 1
 I broke my front triangle on my 2018 specialized enduro elite and I got a new carbon frame with a rock shocks shock on it for $2000
  • + 2
 Their new sizing chart is pretty cool (short & long). That +-10mm adjustment of the headset cup is an awesome idea.
  • + 3
 i would buy it for the lightning bolt alone.
  • + 2
 I don’t have anywhere to ride it but I want the Mega Smash 29”F 27,5” R!
  • + 1
 jah bless
  • + 2
 Dammit, I knew I shouldn't have waited to get an aluminum smash. Now I'll have to save a few more bucks.
  • + 2
 Hell ya crew! The bike looks so dope (but please cutout the carbon at the seat post brace)! Can't wait to try one out.
  • + 1
 I'm happy to support a domestic product and company like these guys! Make America Greatful Again!
  • + 2
 Wow, great to see innovation like this !
  • + 2
 I was happy with my bike...that bike is beautiful.
  • + 1
 Has anybody ridden one yet? I'm anxiously waiting for a thorough review. Until then, I'm saving my pennies up for a Smash!
  • + 2
 Nice job GG! My Pedalhead was getting lonely
  • + 1
 The rear of the bike is 3 mm offset to the drive side,like Cannondale Ai bikes.
  • + 1
 Graphine oxide enriched resin, pre woven 'sock' frame (not a new idea), and resin infusion. I reckon.
  • + 2
 Great product from a great American Company. Very cool.
  • + 2
 Damn, was hoping not to buy a new bike for a few years.
  • + 2
 Damn!!!!!!! Love my Trail Pistol - time to get a carbon Megatrail!!!!!
  • + 2
 These guys are going places! The big boys better take notes.
  • + 3
 Way sweeter than Habit.
  • + 2
 This is awesome! Way to go Guerrilla!
  • + 2
 I'm not a arbon fan but, I like everything aboot this
  • + 2
 Well *that* got my attention!
  • + 1
 Shred Dogg, full time gravity mode, 29 on the front with a 150 reduced offset fork. Want.
  • + 2
 Waiting for the high cost excuses from the rest of the industry...
  • + 2
 Great work from the small guys. Love it! Keep up the hard work!
  • + 1
 carboxyl-terminated butadiene solid rubber and polysulfone reinforced epoxy resin systems....
  • + 2
 The bottle holder position is quiet an interesting thing
  • + 0
 It is simple to make a carbon frame for under 2.5k. If half the frame is carbon and the other half is aluminum it will be cheaper!
  • + 0
 First they drop their DH bike, and now aluminum (front triangles) all together. The technology looks amazing, but I’ll be spending my money elsewhere.
  • + 2
 Ummm a GT force or GG Smash?
  • + 0
 How have they powder coated the carbon frames? Powder coating relies on the piece being electrically charged, and as carbon fibre isn't conductive, it can't be powder coated.
  • + 1
 There are ways to powercoat non conductive materials. You can cause a buildup of charge on them differently, or hot spray them when there arent nooks and cranny's to get into.
  • + 1
 Hot flocking works for non conductive materials.
  • + 1
 only way this bike could be better for me is if GG was Canadian, nice work!
  • + 2
 This is the coolest thing I’ve seen in a long time!
  • + 1
 Do i still have to redish my rear hub for a GG frame? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist
  • + 2
 Ok, I’m sold...I now want a pull start minibike.
  • + 2
 GG you have my attention...
  • + 1
 Wish i had 2500 USD burning in my pocket to be spent
  • + 1
 *lays one layer of carbon*

me: "Yep, that's good! Ready for testing"
  • + 1
 Less expensive is like less dead...
  • + 1
 Let’s talk about that headtube......
  • + 1
 How do the 27.5" models change the travel + - 10mm and the 29" is fixed?
  • + 1
 the flip chip adjustments aren't the same on the different seatstay kits
  • + 1
 I missed what kind of suspension design it uses?
  • + 1
 Horst link.
  • + 1
 Thanks Guerilla Gravity...now I have to go home and change my pants.
  • + 2
 My next bike.
  • + 1
 2019's shaping up for be the year of out of the blue surprises.
  • + 1
 Less expensive makes my cry less...
  • + 1
 You put Megatrail as a 29er which is incorrect Wink

Ya fixed it!
  • + 1
 457mm seat tube on a medium???
  • + 1
 Their website is not fully updated and consistent yet. If you are looking at "medium" I think you are seeing the 2018 geo chart. 457mm for size M is 2018 geo/sizing. Select the frame build, geo and sizing, and enter your height. For me at 5'10" I got the following two size recommendations: 2019 size 2 with a 400mm seat tube; 2019 size 3 with a 430 mm seat tube.
  • + 2
 Very cool, I like it.
  • - 3
 These frames don't cost less than what comes out of Asia. They cost much more. There is a difference between factory pricing and retail pricing. If you do your research and know what suppliers are worthy, you can get very nice carbon full-suspension frames from Chinese factories for $600, all said and done, after taxes and shipping.

That said, what Guerilla Gravity has done is very impressive, and we need more manufacturing talent in the USA too!
  • + 1
 Soo sick! Love the geo/fit on their bikes
  • + 1
 aaarrgghhh! why why why why do I want so many bikes!
  • + 1
 Hmm, what about "Modular Frame Platform" for Al frame?
Is it work too?
  • + 2
 It's not as interchangeable but short answer is yes. The Megatrail, Shred Dogg and The Smash all share the same front on the Aluminum frames. Trail Pistol has different shock tabs. This has been something a lot of people have been doing and became popular for people on Megatrails that wanted to make the switch to the Smash when it was released!
  • + 1
 @jimmydubya:
Thank you. So I will try to buy Smash or Megatrail
  • + 0
 Good for them but what a bummer. Guess you can't ignore the carbon juggernaut. Never understand everyone's obsession.
  • + 2
 Options? Yes, please.
  • + 2
 Oh look, my next bike!
  • + 2
 sweet
  • + 1
 Sounds like heavy cheap fantastic plastic.
  • + 2
 Cracking looking bike!
  • + 0
 They can also dodge the Asian manufacturing tariffs that were recently implemented in the US. Very nice looking frames.
  • + 10
 Just China man. Not all of the other Asian countries have those new tarrifs.
  • + 2
 Cool
  • + 1
 Reminds me Guerrilla Radio.
  • + 1
 Super Super.
  • + 0
 Came for the protuberant headtube comments
  • + 7
 it has reach adjust built in. run it long and it wont protrude
  • - 5
flag kmg0 (Jan 31, 2019 at 7:01) (Below Threshold)
 seriously hideous.
  • + 1
 PHWOAR!!!
  • - 2
 So happy see more USA Carbon. America needs tough tariffs to encourage other manufacturers to to build in USA. No more China carbon bs.
  • + 1
 In
  • + 0
 its not the prettiest thing but at least it has a water bottle
  • + 1
 I’m digging it
  • + 1
 #gamechanger
  • + 1
 sick advertisement !
  • + 0
 Carbon Pedalhead please....
  • + 1
 Wow....Nice work GG!
  • + 0
 or 800 for a sick china carbon
  • + 1
 all i have: sick
  • + 0
 This is some serious MAGA action Wink
  • + 7
 Haters gonna hate but it's true. American manufacturing at a cheaper price creating jobs for American's. I disagree with the current admin as much as the next guy but you can't argue with this.
  • + 0
 @MikeyMT: Definitely cool that they are pioneering this in-house method at a much-better price-point (enough hyphens?), but I doubt its creating jobs. Maybe they hired a few more? Who knows, but I am guessing the current team rallied together, made this huge plan for a carbon-only process and got to work with the same staff...and not only that...it sounds like they are employing robots in order to keep costs down. But whatever - good for them.
  • + 2
 @KGAmoto: Over the last 2 years I've lost count of the all the new people moving around the shop. My guess is they've added at least 4-8 people to handle the process, the family definitely appears to be growing!
  • + 2
 @KGAmoto: Machines don't run themselves. And once you program a machine to do a job you don't just leave it and come back a couple of days later to find it running exactly as you left it.
Even CNC machines which are relatively robust technology as they've been around for ages require constant re-calibration and checking. This is a new technology for GG - they'll need to hire new people to run it for them (or pull old people from their previous roles and train them).
  • + 3
 @MikeyMT: I don't care for politics, but it certainly is nice to support American companies and manufacturing. That did play a factor in buying my GG bike.
  • + 2
 @nouseforaname: Beyond production, there's also design and engineering staff, maybe more sales staff, marketing, etc. It's probably a net positive.
  • + 0
 @MikeyMT: what has trump done that helped GG create a cheaper carbon frame?
  • - 1
 Intense carbine, frame and shock. $2499
  • + 4
 made in china not adjustable to different bike lines and has a huge co2 impact.
  • + 0
 You had me at USE
  • - 2
 rad for gg! but why go away from alloy? a lot more ocean fill to come. time to find a way to recycle plasticfantastic.
  • + 2
 I'm not sure of the details, but I thought I read that this material can be recycled.
  • + 2
 @NWBasser: yep, they claim that this material is much easier to recycle.
  • - 1
 Made by a robot that was probably made in China.
  • - 1
 #fakenews
  • - 3
 $2500 for 1 carbon/alu frame is pretty average.
$3000 for 2-4 carbon/alu frames is much better.
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