Hardcore German Tech(no?) - Eurobike 2015

Aug 29, 2015
by Paul Aston  

Brake Force One

Brake Force One




Brake Force One have built the first ever brake which uses water instead of hydraulic fluid. Sounds crazy but their engineers say that brake fluids don't get as hot as people think - Magura and Shimano seals aren't designed to take more than 100°C and the only reason we use DOT or mineral oil is because of old technology taken from the automotive where fluid temperatures can get much higher.
Brake Force One

Brake Force One say that water is actually more heat resistant than hydraulic fluid with two times higher heat capacity, five times better heat transportation and less heat elongation. In direct comparison tests the water filled brakes outlast normal fluids, and the outstanding benefit of water is that it's clean and can be found anywhere. Propylene glycol antifreeze is used to prevent freezing in winter temperatures, and there is also a neat quick release button for the hoses if you need to cut, or re-route them. The H2O brakes weigh in at 188g each and will be available in October for €594 pair. (Editor's note - Don't shoot the messenger)

Brake Force One
Brake Force One



Trickstuff


Trickstuff


Trickstuff engineer Cornelius Kapfinger built this upside fork in his spare time, just because he could. It has 200mm travel and weighs 2700g with carbon guards and an 8" post mount. Stiffness is said to be similar to a DVO Emerald, some being gained by using a steel 20mm axle which is 30% stiffer than aluminium of the same weight. Air sprung, oil damped and no steerer tube - short stubs on each crown connected by a long bolt with all forces heading through the fork legs. Cornelius says he has no plans for production although he has made a few single crown versions for friends.
Trickstuff Parts

Trickstuff

That's right, no steerer tube! Stubs that protrude from the crowns just enough to sit inside the bearing races are then bolted together from the lower crown.

Trickstuff Parts

Trickstuff Parts

This seat clamp goes by the name of Gandhi and is 10% lighter than any other seat clamp on the market and is designed to be carbon friendly.
bigquotesThe Gandhi gently caresses your seat post rather than strangling it with brutal force. - Trickstuff

Trickstuff Parts

Make any frame with a standard bottom bracket in to a single speed using these eccentric bottom bracket cups.

Trickstuff Parts

Cornelius has also built this derailleur cage for himself. The massive cog gives similar benefits of a longer cage carried on a single sided carbon arm.

Trickstuff Parts

Direttissima translates to 'the shortest way down' in mountaineering speak. This all new brake uses four roller bearings in the lever and PTFE coated piston seals to lower friction - less friction equals better modulation and sensitivity. Trickstuff say that the Direttissima is 5-10% more powerful than a Shimano XTR Trail at a very similar weight. The lever shape and pivot placement were chosen to place the finger at 90 degrees to the lever at the bite point for a comfortable ergonomic. Thomas Genon will be using these to slow himself down the Rampage course in October, and the public can get their hands on them in 2-3 months time. Machined in Germany and a snip at €399 per brake.

Trickstuff Parts

Trickstuff Parts
Trickstuff Parts

'Small, Ugly, Useful.' At least they're honest about these bleed blocks.

Trickstuff Parts

The lightest 'star nut' in the world. The allen key bolt drives a sliding wedge to clamp it inside the steerer tube, then uses a standard top cap and bolt to preload everything down.



Tune


Tune Parts

At 0.3 grams world's lightest spoke magnet for speed sensors.

Tune Parts

An 8g battery holder to hide away a Shimano Di2 battery inside of your seatpost.

Tune Parts

This laser unit sits on your handlebars and shines a red dot on to your front tire for perfect stem alignment. €69

Tune Parts

I understand the saddle, but the cake's decorations were a little confusing.

Tune Parts

Tune are well known in expert mechanic/uber geek circles for being some of the fastest hubs around. Found on a number of pro downhiller's race run only wheelset's with a spot of duct tape over the logo's. This xc / all mountain wheelset uses AX Lightness 29mm internal carbon rims and comes in under 1200g for a 27.5" pair.

Tune Parts
Tune Parts


EDCO


Edco one piece cassette

Not quite German, but Switzerland is close enough, geographically speaking at least. EDCO is a brand that's nearly 140 years old with it roots in engineering for military purposes. This mono block cassette has low range ideal for road bikes but there are wider spreads currently being tested for mountain bike purposes. EDCO say that it's the only true one-piece cassette on the market. A chromoly block is crushed in to a cone shape and then milled out by a 7- axis machine that was constructed purely to build these cassettes. No word on availability but they should be uber-light, hard wearing and priced accordingly.

Edco one piece cassette

Photo Credits: Beatrice Baar - @whateverphoto


215 Comments

  • 160 0
 The Germans know how to make serious hardcore (bike) porn, regardless of wether it actually works well, (or at all) it just looks ace! It does not matter, I can't afford it anyway!
  • 32 0
 hope the Germans did not tell Mr Aston the fun fact about Direttissima translating into whatever in "German Mountaineering"..pretty sure that is italian.
  • 15 2
 @Lagr1980 You are right, there is nothing German about this Word ;-)

Direttissima would be Direkt in German ;-)

Still great looking Stuff but I prefere Japanese mainstream
  • 16 1
 Hard to say if much of that stuff would hold up in the real world. But still amazing to see someone thinking so far out of the box. We need more of that than we do all these new standards. Tinkerers and mad rocket scientists were the foundation of this sport.
  • 13 3
 gaatorraaadee h2o... gaaaaatorrrraaadeeeeee H2O!!!! Waterboy would be stoked on this development from the krauts.
  • 7 1
 Time to pair them and xzibit for pimp my bike. pretty sure they could fit some lcds and dvd player on any bikes.
  • 5 0
 What about filling the Brake with Beer, m8?
  • 12 2
 Can't wait for that fork to not come out. I'm definitely gonna be the first guy to not get one. Can't freakin wait to not ride it
  • 8 0
 it is. Direttissima translates into "Very Direct". generally speaking, among all the trails that go up to the top of a mountain, the direttissima is the shortest one (and therefore, the steepest)
  • 2 0
 I want some of those brake levers for mechanical applications. those are badass
  • 3 1
 I use to like all this sick CNC stuff.. It sure looks trick in the showroom. I now look for rounded edges and clean lines on parts. All those sharp edges will open you up in a blink of a eye in a O S##T moment.
  • 81 2
 So what about vodka filled brakes?
  • 104 2
 Russian engineering?
  • 7 2
 lol, dude!
  • 8 1
 alcohol boils at around 60c it could work but still 40c is a huge drop from 100c.
  • 8 1
 I'd work in the Arctic, though - ethylic alcohol (ethanol) freezes at -114 °C!
  • 3 1
 that's a perfect use case scenario, as oils congeal and thicken from -15 to -30.
  • 23 1
 Even if they didn't mention it: they brake will be way more aggressive if it gets filled with beer.
  • 4 1
 Schnapps!
  • 3 4
 You should bleed beer brakes with some kind of no-CO2 alcohol, beaxuse of the gas in the system. I think polish bimber (>80% homemade alcohol, mainly based on potatoes, sugar and yeast, distilled with a reflux column self-welded distiller- or anything you have to build one) should do the job.
  • 5 13
flag torero (Aug 29, 2015 at 14:38) (Below Threshold)
 Fuck UKR
  • 2 3
 Soo, ukrainians will swear with russians in any case, if they have a chance to do, that's funny to see...
  • 2 0
 Use the vodka brakes on a fat bike for the snow?
  • 4 0
 @shr3d at the end some of riders wouldn' t have anything to brake with
  • 2 0
 Would fail miserably first time you try to brake, but that doesn't matter, 'cos you're way too drunk to ride anyway.
  • 1 0
 @toaster29, it may be difficult to understand for many not central/eastern Europe nations, but very much people in Poland, way too drunk to walk, can just sit on the bike and ride straight. That's weird, I know, but I saw it many times. Personally, I went through this situation maybe two times in my life, but don't remember it, others told me that I did.
  • 1 1
 Well, try to beat this - max alcohol level recorded in Portugal was 7,46 gr/l. In 2006 a 36yo man crashed onto the back of a car in broad daylight, after a 3km ride - on a motorized 2 wheeler - without an helmet, knocking his head onto the ground. The man left hospital 2 weeks later, though, according to witnesses, was since no longer in possession of his full mental capacities. The legal limit is 0,5gr/l; 0,2 for pros and newly licensed drivers.
  • 1 0
 In Poland, man with 6gr/l was riding bike from one village to another, going back home after some kind of party. He spotted police car behind him on the road, so he get off the bike, got into a ditch along the road, and laying inside put a bike onto him, to hide from police officers. When they stopped and told him to get out, he wasn't moving or talking to them- thought he was invisible or at least hidden good enough Big Grin
  • 2 0
 With eisbock, it would br amazing! Ein bier bitte!
  • 69 9
 That laser tire alignment thing is absolutely genius.
  • 32 1
 But what if your wheel is out of true or dish? Or your tire casing not perfect? Just line up the back of your bar the the upper fork crown like a gun sight. Easy peasy!
  • 19 1
 We have one in the shop I work in, it's the ultimate cure for the paranoia that your tyre is out of line. Such an original tool and really well built
  • 4 7
 I've read somewhere that it doesn't really work well because handlebars are rarely totally straight, I have no idea if it's true though.
  • 17 1
 I love the fetishist aspect of bike componentry. It may be totally unnecessary, but is that even a relevant issue?
  • 10 1
 Skip the tire; align your handlebars with the crown of your fork. Perfectly straight handlebars 100% of the time.
  • 4 2
 Yes, and it is zip tied on so could be incorrectly aligned at the stem too!
  • 12 0
 most likely it's zip tied on so as not to walk away from the booth by itself Wink
  • 3 4
 No way, really?! Wink
  • 2 10
flag cmcrawfo (Aug 29, 2015 at 15:36) (Below Threshold)
 A laser alignment tool .. for precision alignment ... that has to be manually aligned with zip ties?? Fail. You can get a laser pointer for under 10bucks, and eyeball it just the same.
  • 3 0
 I doesn't really matter though if it looks straight it really is straight enough apart from a bit of ocdnesses
  • 3 1
 Its totally worth the price too.
  • 1 3
 @JP199 "worth the price too."

Not really. I can get that laser for $10USD and could mill a $5USD aluminum block to fit it in less than 30 minutes.

Align with the crown and bars using your eyes, cost nothing.
  • 11 3
 it was a fucking joke you clown
  • 2 0
 The zip ties were purely for anti-theft reasons. The mount is machined out to the same size and shape of a handlebar so should sit nice and straight. As for handlebars rarely being straight - that is likely but they should be pretty true so near to the stem. Wheel dish and tire shape - you could use tool before mounting the tire to check the wheel is directly in line with the stem. Also rather than a dot, a laser line could be more useful.
  • 50 1
 'Hi... Yeah I just knocked up an upside down dh fork in my spare time' Slaps face... I need to do more with my spare time.
  • 3 17
flag friendlyfoe (Aug 29, 2015 at 18:54) (Below Threshold)
 Getting wasted with your bro's is hardly making better use of your spare time than engineering and manufacturing new products.
  • 14 0
 I think you've read it wrong bro. Either that or I've missed what you mean.
  • 43 2
 KOLBENRÜCKDRÜCKHOLWERKZEUG! Because Germany! Where's my Bier?
  • 21 7
 Wacky Germans. They have all this tech and can't put a working space bar on their computers...

...Not to mention the angry SHOUTING of words in the internetz. Is this a rally or is Großmutter typing here?
  • 6 0
 That word's ironic btw. Correct, but ironic.
  • 14 3
 Achtung! Schmetterlingen!!!
  • 6 0
 Damn butterflies are always after my Weißbier!
  • 3 0
 the butterflies are listening
  • 7 0
 Jawoi Burschn!
  • 26 1
 So, water filled brakes has been a thing for 10 years, same with antifreeze. And it should work in any brake designed for mineral oil..... Yay marketing
  • 19 1
 wait, are they saying that we are buying expensive toxic oil for our brakes whereas they could work with water ?
  • 20 0
 I would gladly read more on this subject, any links?
  • 11 0
 Links or it doesn't work.
  • 10 1
 No No No No you have to buy those €549 brakes to make that work Wink
  • 10 3
 Water instead of mineral oil does work. However it will cause far more corrosion issues than oil. Also saying a brake never gets over 100 degrees is just plain ridiculous. Mine do, you can tell by the steam that comes off them when they get wet. Seals are still working just fine...
  • 6 5
 Wetbed0 - any documentation on this?

all very well saying it, im sure we'd all love to see something about this.

a: water will freeze at low temps
b: heat up and evaporate at high temps
c: compresses a lot, so not much use in a compression brake system....

i am ONLY ASKING BTW.......

can u explain the points above please?
  • 4 0
 Tell me more, please!
  • 28 1
 water is uncompressable. however everything else you say is true.
  • 2 0
 @gabriel-mission9:

I know TECHNICALLY it will function for a SHORT TIME, i think that wetbed0 is trying to say it completely works ALL THE TIME (though i could be wrong, i await comment.. Wink ).. this is what im questioning
  • 3 0
 Why not make water cooled brakes with water as braking fluid
  • 2 0
 i stand corrected gabriel-mission9
  • 4 1
 @AMGoran Apparentely one of the bonuses of using water INSTEAD of mineral / dot4 is the fact it heats up less.

as for water cooling the discs, that'd require some form of external storage reservoir for the cooling water? (cant see the the TT / racing crew being a fan of that extra kilo/half kilo addition, Wink )

or a fully enclosed cooling system (complicated), and then might u need some form of radiator to cool the heated coolant..
  • 1 0
 Im looking at some new Hope, or SRAM Guide Ultimates soon, so ill be keeping an eye on these..........
  • 10 0
 @gabriel-mission9 they are saying the FLUID never gets that hot; of course the rotor does.
  • 7 0
 Time for the links.
www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/85231-when-bleeding-magura-hs33s-water.html
www.trials-forum.co.uk/topic/162904-questions-on-water-bled-maguras

I've read about water bled discs, but can only find so much from the bus. It's also a lot easier to bleed your brakes when you can just dunk them in a 5 gallon bucket.
  • 1 0
 Interesting reading...
  • 2 0
 Pinkbike must ge ta hold of them and see how they work. I remember the original BF1 brakes being a slightly damp squib, maybe these ones will be a bit more effective.
  • 4 2
 Water is only incompressible until it boils, then it turns to vapour in your brake lines and is very compressible, which would cause serious brake fade.
  • 5 0
 I would also be concerned about overheating and freezing. But i can say that water does not compress much at all. At around 4,000ft deep in the ocean where presures are much more than we could churn up in a brake, it compresses by less that 2%.
  • 3 1
 I used water in the brakes of my Chevy S15 pickup for a summer. No prob!
  • 2 3
 When water boils, its vapour is very compressible, (at sea level) that's how old steam loco's worked. If you you had water vapour in your brake lines, you would first have to compress this by pulling the lever a certain amount before the pads even started to move towards the disc surface dependant upon piston friction, in which case, you may keep pulling the lever and nothing happens.
  • 15 0
 Thing is, if there is vapour in the lines, then the water had to expand to make vapour meaning your brakes will have locked on by this point anyway. You will never get spongy feeling brakes due to vapour in the line, cos if you compress the vapour enough it will turn back to liquid, and there will never be any less water in the system than you started with unless you have a leak.
  • 3 1
 True, but by this point your pads are rubbing, no? Due to fluid/ gas expansion, thereby proving its a cack idea in the first place.
  • 2 0
 Oh god yeah, its a stupid idea to be putting into production, unless they really can keep the heat WELL under 100degrees. Not sure what anti-freeze does to the boiling point either. could make things worse. could make things better.
  • 1 0
 A friend of mine once bled his old magura brakes with olive oil and it worked just fine. If i remember correctly hydraulic fluid compresses between 5-10% at 100 bar, at pressures in bikes seals and hoses are was more important. I am actually really interested in the real temperature of the brake fluid, pads get really hot, pistons should do less, also because most of them are designed so the contact area is not whole piston, but most of what it gets to piston will spread to caliper/fluid. Dot should boil above 200 which is supposingly too high for bikes but important for cars, in my opinion waters should not boil in bike brakes... Would like to see some data on that, also tests. Life would be sooo much easier with water in brakes...
  • 2 0
 As long as you remember to use destilled water, not tap water...

Same goes for water cooling, btw; if temp doesn't go past zero degrees where you live, it's obvious you won't need antifreeze in you radiator (or wipers).
  • 2 0
 Trials riders may run water in brakes, but trials puts very different demands on braking than trail riding. In general a trials brake is ideal when it has as little modulation as possible, and it's extremely unlikely to ever heat up. Remember trials riders also grind their rims and / or run tar on the rim to increase bite.

I'd be interested to see if anyone's running water for trail riding, but I'd be very wary of applying trials tech to any other kind of biking.
  • 5 1
 To clarify, my calipers can and do get to well over 100 degrees. After extreme descents in the alps, I have accidentally dripped water onto my caliper (as opposed to rotor or pads), and watched it immediately boil. I agree life would be much much better if water turned out to be a viable brake fluid, so I hope these brakes are good. I just have my doubts at this stage.
  • 10 0
 Boiling point isn't the only factor. Specific heat will play a large factor here. While I can't find a specific heat for DOT fluid, water is over double the specific heat of mineral oil. So while the boiling point is lower the amount of heat to raise it one degree is much better than mineral oil. Maguras oils boiling point is only 40 degrees higher so if it doesn't boil water shouldn't either seeing how the amount of heat to get maguras oil to 140 would only get water to somewhere in the 60s. While there are more factors beside just the boiling point and specific heat it's not far fetched to say it would would as well as at least maguras mineral oil.
  • 1 1
 This is very true, however given that when my calipers get heated up to over 100 degrees, you have to factor in the heat capacity of the metal and plastic parts as well. I havent done the maths, but would assume the overall heat capacity of the caliper/fluid/pads/rotor etc doesnt change a huge amount when you switch from oil to water. It will definitely be increased, but by how much? Just to confuse things further the speed of heat radiation increases with the heat differential between the caliper and the air around it.

All very interesting, I am keen to see a proper review of these brakes. And that new Brew shock. If both turn out to be effective upgrades we could actually see some changes to the status quo that bring a real performance/servicability benefit, and don't even require you to buy a completely new bike in order to take advantage of them! Woo!
  • 3 2
 The Brake Force Ones are supposedly pretty sh1t so all of this discussion about technicalities is irrelevant!
  • 3 1
 This is where those Shimano cooling fins finally make sense.
  • 2 0
 Brakes running mineral oil can also work on olive or sunflower oil in case of emergency. It is easier to get hold of than distilled water or even a proper brake cable in some places. Which makes those old HS33 rim brakes the best choice for trekking to remote places. Obviously tapwater could also work, but the minerals in there will always trigger some corrosion in your system which oil does not. And corrosion in aluminium will affect the piston seal.
  • 8 1
 who cares there 600 quid.
  • 1 0
 For me the cold side of the spectrum is more important, if I recall correctly water expands 7% when frozen. My bike WILL be exposed to freezing conditions, weather on a ride or in the garage. I would fully expect the line or a seal to rupture.

BTW water puts the 'hydro' in hydraulic.
  • 3 0
 Water expands below 4degC. As this is is an open system (I suppose) the reservoir should accommodate the expanded fluid. The article mentions they'll add some anti-freeze so that should keep it from freezing. I'm not saying this system is perfect (I've only read the article and seen the picture so I can't judge based on that), but I suppose if they've got the guts to go to show with a 600 euro brake that is very different from the norm, it should at least do fairly well and survive these overly obvious risks.
  • 2 0
 @winko, @vinay: vegetable oils are acidic (even the "sweetest" of olive oils) - you don't want any metal parts near them for a long time, specially when heat is involved, trust me...
  • 1 0
 If it works why not, pinkbike can you please "crash test these" after I install the box components dérailleur and shifter this would be a great product to use over the other brands, providing you survive the testing
  • 2 1
 They never said that your "brake rotors" don't get over 100c, they said the fluid there is a big difference. I have no idea if what they are saying is true, but saying my rotors are so the fluid is the same is not correct. That's like saying that racing car disks reach 1000c so the hydraulic fluid is at 1000c it's ridiculous.
  • 1 1
 Nope, my CALIPERS reach at least 100degrees, suggesting the fluid inside them does too
  • 2 0
 @gabriel-mission9 It's a 188g brake, which is quite similar to Magura MT8's, and you are talking about extreme descents in the alps, when these brakes are obviously designed for XC racing. If they turn out to work, I'd love to put them on a future "race-only" bike, if it turns out that they actually work.
These kind of products are not meant to be mainstream, but as a weight-weenie XC racer, this is what we want. A lot of xc racers have bikes for training and "race-only" bikes, and those "race-only" bikes are not built to be durable or anything, they just have to be the fastest bike possible for that 1.5h, that XCO races last.
  • 2 0
 yup, but water is not gonna get you to the finish line any faster than "normal" brake fluid.

Unless the finish line happens to be at the end of a long alpine descent in a perfectly straight line...

not hating on this idea, just discussing.
  • 2 0
 To add fuel to the fire:
I just read this article www.ride.ch/site/index.php/10362-eurobike-bei-brakeforce-one-ist-wasser-das-neue-oel.html

There it says, that you don't screw the brake line in or secure it in any other way. It's just pushed into the leverbody. Not even pressed, just pushed.

I wonder if this design really can hold its own against some shrubbery.
  • 1 0
 Not here it won't, whether it's branches just pulling it out or thorns puncturing/slashing it... also all this time we've been led to believe we needed nothing less than steel braided hose because of pressure swell, and all of a sudden a simple aquarium airline is enough? Preposterous, I say!
  • 2 0
 "pyromaniac (14 hours ago)
To add fuel to the fire:"

Lol. Good name...
  • 1 0
 @gabriel-mission9 No, it won't, but a lighter brake will, which was my point. The benefits of using water has nothing to do with braking power or modulation, but is more based on health and environment, with the added benefits of a non-corrosive and easy to acces liquid.
  • 1 1
 This is a dumb thread, but the temperature of your caliper does not directly correlate to fluid temp.
  • 3 0
 @erikthefatty What does it then? Heat transfers from pads to caliper and from caliper to fluid. Also temperature of the fluid changes along the hose so in reality only problematic part is fluid in the caliper which has highest temp...
  • 2 0
 @erikthefatty Whats dumb about it? And how do you suppose that the caliper and fluid are going to be at wildly different temps when one is contained within the other and they are being heated by the same source?
  • 1 1
 It's dumb because I really doubt any of you know much about thermodynamics. There are a huge number of variables that can make x≠y.
  • 1 0
 Care to explain?
  • 3 0
 True, there's a lot going on here. I didn't take the time to look at any heat transfer throughout the system, but I did make some basic calculations earlier today. So, assuming all of the fluid heats uniformly (Not entirely correct), that the caliper heats uniformly( also not correct), that the rotor heats evenly( still kinda far off), and that every part of the system is at the same temperature (Pretty far from true), the water based system is down about 60% on heat capacity due to the limited temperature range vs shimano mineral oil. I may run the numbers again, on this very simplified system, with magura blood (Boils at 140C vs 280C for shimano) and see how water stacks up against a fluid that is still viable in a common braking system.
  • 3 0
 Ran it with Magura blood(boil at 140C) only a 2.7% reduction in energy capacity by switching to water. Since all of my assumptions are held constant, the comparison should be somewhat viable, and if your brakes stay cooler, your pads rotors and seals should last better too. I may run a test with an elixer I have laying around and report back.
  • 1 0
 @wetbed0 , ^^^this is awesome.

What volume of fluid are you using for inside the caliper? (ignoring the hose/fittings)
  • 1 0
 Miss typed(unit conversion) 30% reduction. So, more considerable. Fluid volume was 3.46 mL, calculated from hose ID and 1000mm length. So, I could either try to do a lot more math, or possibly try it out, in a controlled, only running water in one brake kinda way.
  • 1 0
 Did some digging, because unlike most people assume, bikes aren't the first thing to look at these kinds of problems.
So, here's some test data from Adriaan Neys from Chalmers university. Note how cool the fluid is compared to everything else, this is for a car, so the masses of different components will vary, but I doubt bike components will reach these kinds of temperatures.

i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad83/wetbed0/Untitled_zpsesvtxok8.jpg
  • 1 0
 @wetbed0 How dare you do actual research before posting! Do you know what type of fluid these results are for? Although its as expected that the fluid wouldnt absorb as much heat as everything else, Im wondering if these actual results are a result of a brake fluids designed characteristics / additives.
  • 1 0
 Dot 3 or 4 I'm pretty sure that the heat capacity of brake fluid is less than water, cabtcan't find any hard numbers, but most fluids have a heat capacity of about half of water. The main limits would be designing a caliper to transfer a minimal amount of heat to the fluid. Which should be done already. If I really get bored, I'll plug the models into Matlab with masses and materials used with bikes.
  • 2 0
 Very interesting. Shame it doesnt give caliper temps. I still maintain that the caliper temp and fluid temp will be pretty similar, while the discs and pads will be far hotter. Obviously I mean the fluid within the caliper, ignoring the fluid in the hose/lever as this will be essentially unaffected by heat. Cant imagine there is more than 1cc of fluid in the caliper, and as the caliper is fairly massive itself (large heat capacity/slow to change temperature) I think the fluid temp will match caliper temp almost exactly.
  • 1 1
 @gabriel-mission9 you're assuming no fluid flow. Hot water is less dense and rises; there might be a slight current taking hot water upwards and away from the caliper. Also the boiling point of water rises with pressure.
  • 3 0
 Could be wrong, but I think when the internal diameter of the brake hose is +/- 1mm, there isnt gonna be much convection going on. This is all speculation on my part, but I assume you will see almost no heat increase more than about 2 or 3 inches down the hose from the caliper.
  • 3 0
 I dont want to ad anything to this discussion and i dont really care about it either but it fascinates me that there is so much knowledge on here, i wonder what we together as a pinkbike community could create if everyone got together and worked on something
  • 1 0
 I think another paper I skimmed looked at caliper temp. They're still limited since the weight differences are have an effect. I might start a thread somewhere to keep things more organized.
  • 1 0
 Pads to piston to fluid to caliper with some transfer in the pocket area from rotor to caliper.
  • 1 0
 No antifreeze in your radiator? The antifreeze acts as a water pump lube. You need some antifreeze no matter what the temperature range. I run a minimum 25% mixture since it rarely hits freezing but it hits 105F ambient around here pretty often. It's less than the 50-50 factory mix for better heat transfer but enough to ensure long water pump life.
  • 1 0
 That's where water wetter comes in. It'll lube and protect parts without reducing the heat capacity or conductivity near as much as antifreeze. But that's a different subject all together, but could help in my water brake test, since water is pretty corrosive.
  • 1 0
 @BuickV6: maybe you don't remember, but before antifreeze became "indispensable", radiators were filled with plain water (and not even distilled) - maybe the pumps were more reliable then than now, but that was a fact.
  • 2 0
 They were unreliable in today's terms. But the water pump didn't have to last 100k,since the car fell apart around it. But for the most part, antifreeze is a good thing.
  • 1 0
 @AMGoran Protour and Waki have already collaborated on a new suspension design

www.pinkbike.com/photo/11743393
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez yeah no I was thinking about something more serious Wink
  • 1 0
 @wetbed0 Considering how overbuilt old cars were, the numbers still around running like new and the mileage some have reached (over 2mil km), calling them unreliable has to be a joke... but yes, antifreeze is a good thing... if it freezes where you live...
  • 2 0
 Think about the work put into old cars. Valves at 30k, front end rebuild at 60k, engine rebuild at 100k, along with tons of parts along the way. The materials are just better today. And antifreeze has been in use since the 50's, if you want to debate that pre 60's cars are reliable, you're a bit off. They're running today thanks to a lot of work and passion, nothing to do with the original design.
  • 3 0
 All of this is irrelevant; fact is antifreeze exists for one reason alone and that's freezing temps, besides that makes as much sense as using a dh'er for commuting because it has better shock absorption...
  • 24 0
 Not sure if those are testies or butts next to that cake. I think they're butts
  • 7 0
 They seem to be made of marzipan though, rather tasty!
  • 7 0
 Looks like a knob end from some angles....
  • 17 1
 I thought the saddle was a vagina at first
  • 6 1
 was that a chocolate vag? take my $
  • 17 0
 Ugliest cake ever made hahaha
  • 15 0
 I'd really like to meet Cornelius, "Well, I got some free time, might as well build a couple upside down forks for me and my buddies...".
  • 12 1
 Those 'Direttissima' brakes are a thing of engineering beauty... a German contender for Hope ?
  • 11 0
 Thank God someone finally shaved some weight off the seat post clamp. That things been weighing me down bro.
  • 2 0
 No kidding. How much sleep did the engineers lose trying to shave 10% of the weight off a 10 gram part? I probably loose more weight than that every time I have a pedal strike!
  • 6 0
 Sorry Trickstuff, but your Gandhi seat clamp isn't 10% lighter than every other collar on the market, since the Mcfk Carbon collar is 7.6 grams in the 31.8mm size, while your 31.8mm clamp is 9.3 grams. Better cut a few speed holes in there!
  • 4 0
 Yes, and I have a Mt Zoom 34.9 at 6g and there are some carbon clamps around 5g!

That starnut also isn't the lightest unless they've trumped the Extralite 6g version while apparently using more material!

Check your facts Trickstuff and or PB! Smile
  • 5 0
 I think they forget to wright "every other Aluminium Collar" ;-)
  • 1 0
 I doubt it's lighter than every other aluminum collar on the market. That's still quite a bold statement.
  • 2 0
 Mt Zoom 6g seat clamp is alu and New Ultimate use a very similar design to also produce a 6g alu seat clamp (6g even in the larger 34.9 size).

Not even lighter than every other alu clamp Wink 10g is pretty average for a lightish clamp (e.g. KCNC)
  • 2 1
 OK, you find "One" Alu Clamp .Write an email to Trickstuff and complain you.
If you think KCNC is the average (1g more than the Ghandi) then it is still lighter than the average ;-)
  • 2 0
 I think it is PB making a ill informed claim not Trickstuff but whatever Smile

"This seat clamp goes by the name of Gandhi and is 10% lighter than any other seat clamp on the market and is designed to be carbon friendly. "

They say lighter than ANY other.... well, just for starters.... Big Grin

Carbonice 4.5g (CF)
MCFK 5g (CF)
POP 6g (CF)
Tune 6g (CF)
Mt Zoom 6g (Alu)
Juniper 6g (Alu)
BK 6.5g (CF)
New Ultimate 6.8g (Alu)
Carbon-Ti 8g (Alu)
MSC 8.4g (Alu)
Procraft 9g (CF)
Procraft 9g (Alu)
Tune 9g (Alu)
.......
Trickstuff 9g (Alu)
  • 1 0
 Prototype alu: 5,4g: prototype.pt/product/seat-clamp
  • 6 0
 Hi there, this is Klaus Liedler speaking, I am the CEO at Trickstuff and I am using our engineer Cornelius Kapfinger’s PB account to comment on the Direttissima info here on PB.

1. Direttissima is - of course - an Italian word. German sounds different.
2. The Direttissima BMC will be available separately (without hoses and caliper) for tuning your Shimano or – mainly – Magura MT5/7 brakes. Be prepared for the monster brake power with excellent modulation!
3. KOLBENRÜCKDRÜCKHOLZWERKZEUG = WOODENPISTONPUSHBACKTOOL. And yes, it is ironic.
4. Please do not mix up Trickstuff-Direttissima and BrakeforceOne. We at Trickstuff believe in the advantages of mineral oil or DOT as brake fluid. We do not believe in water. I experienced boiling DOT ( >270 °C !) personally.
5. We do not claim to have the lightest seat post clamps of the world. We do not claim to have the lightest aluminum clamps of the world. What we claim is that our very light aluminum clamps stand the highest loads whilst – due to the intelligent positioning of the bolt – caressing the post rather than struggling it. The tune, Hope, Zoom, KCNC and New Ultimate clamps have a completely different bolt position.
6. Yes, the brake hose on Cornelius’ bike is too short. We know that ;-)

Greets from small Black Forest to the world, Klaus
  • 2 0
 You can give me the fork, I have a hose longh enough to put it on my bike.
  • 7 0
 Is it just me, or is the front brake line on the Kapfinger fork stretched a bit tight? Would love to try the fork though.
  • 4 0
 It looks goofy but it isn't a hazard like it would be on the rear... the front needs no slack at all. It turns with the fork and it's already in the fully extended position.
  • 2 0
 Yeh, youre absolutely right. I guess it was the angle of where the line connects to the lever that just made it look extreeme.
  • 7 0
 that cassete is art. I could look at it for hours.... i need a life.
  • 6 0
 So many bike parts I can't get here...oh well
  • 6 0
 you never heard of the internet, and international postage brother? Wink
  • 2 0
 Hmm I'll save this post. Might need a canyon shipped to the US....
  • 3 0
 coming in 2016...supposedly.
YT is here now.
Tjavascript:;he patent expiring on the Horst-link should open up the flood gates.
  • 5 0
 7-axis cnc machine? What axis is left avec x y z a b c?
  • 16 0
 d.
  • 22 0
 Pretty common here in the 4th dimension. Can't build a decent spaceship with that.
  • 3 0
 Think of your arm.
  • 7 0
 Probably means you have a 6 axis milling arm with a rotating fixture table. Helps to reduce the amount of arm movement which is slower/less rigid than a rotating table.
  • 5 0
 I got curious and just found this:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEhQD13wtFk

So cool.
  • 1 0
 Rotary table on a trunion.
  • 2 0
 You can never have too many axes.
  • 1 1
 Wait until they realize they'll be faster axisless...
  • 1 0
 Oh i get it... it do not have more degree of freedom, it just have more tools working at the same time or more pivot in the robot arm. Somehow CNC sellers are good to let you think they have invented new dimensions! Anyway, if you can achieve that with a five axis, you can achieve pretty much anything
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnIvhlKT7SY
  • 5 0
 Trials riders have been using water in their brakes for years........
  • 2 1
 the brakes: ooh thanks just what i needed squidgy ugly brakes i can refill from my tap
the fork: 'nah i just build a fork i my spare time'. you have a lot of spare time.
the cassete: ok...
the seat clamp: needs QR...
the other brakes: OH NO WHAT HAVE WE DONE
spoke magnet: why
battery holder: why
stem laser thingy: why
saddle cake: *squish* hey, that wasn't my bike...
wheels: actually, i kinda like this
cassete: also like this
  • 1 0
 "Tune are well known in expert mechanic/uber geek circles for being some of the fastest hubs around. Found on a number of pro downhiller's race run only wheelset's with a spot of duct tape over the logo's. This xc / all mountain wheelset uses AX Lightness 29mm internal carbon rims and comes in under 1200g for a 27.5" pair."

PB, can you test a set of these please?
  • 2 0
 I love how it says, "don't shoot the messenger" under the BrakeForceOne portion. It's amazing that companies could miss using water for hydraulic brakes, when it supposedly works better for bike applications.
  • 4 0
 To do list:

a) befriend Cornelius;

or...

b) get a CNC station;
  • 3 0
 Give that Cornelius man a medal! Two true inocations in one event, genius!
  • 3 0
 Absolutely right, Trickstuff is one of the most innovative companies out there! I'm pretty sure they invented the hydraulic gyro that even Cam McCaul was featuring on his bikes... They always found solutions to problems which seemingly nobody else could solve. I really love how a small one man company from Freiburg, a cute little city in the Black Forest, helped out the big namens of the scene. Unfortunately Trickstuff never managed to grow into a well-known Business, though... Which makes it even more awesome to see this huge coverage on pinkbike. Props to their attention to details! Pinkbike is really making a difference in the bikeworld.
  • 6 3
 I always thought aluminum was stiffer than steel?!?
  • 15 0
 Nope. Steel is around 3 times as stiff. Modulus of elasticity is pretty much what dictates stiffness. Steel is 200GPa, aluminium (high grade) just slightly over 70GPa. You might hear of aluminium frames being stiffer but that is because it is so much lighter (around 30% density) that the frame tubes can be made much wider which adds a lot of stiffness.
  • 6 0
 Best response on pinkbike ever.
  • 3 0
 RoboDuck is bang on. People often confuse material stiffness (aka Young's modulus, or elastic modulus) and mechanical stiffness, with the latter being a property of the geometry of a structure only.
  • 2 0
 I understand the difference (material vs. mechanical stiffness), but if this guy can make a steel axle stiffer and as light as aluminum, then why wouldn't anyone do it for whole frames? I'd much rather have a steel frame than alu., but not a noodle or boat anchor. Is it because the steel walls would have to be too thin to provide durability?
  • 3 0
 Well the article says "30% stiffer than aluminium of the same weight". But it doesn't say exactly what that weight is =) My feeling is that his axle is probably a fair bit heftier than say a maxle or taperwall, but theoretically if you made an aluminium axle of the same mass as his that his steel one will be stiffer. Considering the alu axle would be restricted in size to 20mm dia x 110mm, this is entirely to be expected. If you were just talking about the stiffness of tubes in general, using alu would enable you to use more material for the same weight, and thus construct a larger diameter tube which could well be stiffer.

With regards to frames, aluminium gave frame designers much more freedom over cross-section shape and size (this is also even more true of carbon) and therefore to make frames stiffer in key areas without incurring large weight penalties. Consider as a textbook example, the Yeti DJ 2013, particularly the rear triangle and dropouts.

You are also completely right about wall thickness - that is the limiting factor when it comes to steel. Sure, you can make the tubes wider or larger to create a _really_ stiff frame, but you then end up with an anchor as you put it. There then comes a point where they only way to lose mass is to reduce wall thickness, and most companies have found that wall thickness cannot be reduced enough to retain dent resistance while remaining competitive with the weight of alu frames.

I sure do still love me a steel frame though =P
  • 2 0
 Makes good sense--thanks! I bet you're right that his steel axle is heavier than most.
  • 2 1
 It's always been possible to make a steel frame that's lighter and stiffer than aluminum, but to do so you'd have to have large, extremely thin tubes which would have no impact/dent resistance. That's why steel frames used smaller tube diameters, since you have a tricky tradeoff between stiffness and durability/wall thickness. Aluminum has always had the advantage in this way, cuz you can use larger, thicker tubes without a weight penalty.

In this case, since diameter of both axles has to be the same, steel could have the advantage. You could use a butted tube that's super thin in the middle, since it won't really need toughness there. The ends just have to have enough shear strength to to handle landings and bumps.

But yeah. Given the same diameter and weight, steel basically has to be stronger than aluminum. Constraining diameter takes away alu's mechanical stiffness advantage.
  • 4 2
 Whats that in you pants Tommy?
Its a gun!
What do u need a gun for ? Zee Germans
  • 1 0
 Love the Euro bling! No one else wants to say it so I will. Get the air bubbles out and water will work in hydraulic brakes.
  • 1 0
 Best thing to do is dyno those water brakes. Then put it on a web site for us all to see. Then I would buy them. Save faffing with oil or brake fluid near my rotors.
  • 2 0
 I like that BrakeForceOne, At least I can use my Urine in case of emergency Smile
  • 1 0
 nice brakes!!!! not sure I actually need them though since i'm pretty sure my brakes stop me well enough.. its the tires that aren't stopping!
  • 2 0
 EDCO

Make bike parts... Not war.

(Pedalling is so much cooler than killing)
  • 3 0
 You had me at world's lightest star nut.
  • 1 0
 Is it just me or does the front brake hose on the Trickstuff bike look really short and stretched out?
  • 1 0
 I had an idea for losing the steerer tube on double crown forks years ago Damn.....
  • 1 0
 I recon that seat clamp is gonna save my race times
  • 4 7
 "Brake Force One say that water is actually more heat resistant than hydraulic fluid with two times higher heat capacity"
Why does PB even post this shit?
By FMVSS116 standards, DOT 4 fluids must have a minimum dry boiling point of 446°F and a minimum wet boiling point of 311°F. Water, as well all know, boils at 212F(100C).
And it's not like you gotta be a friggen engineer to know this.
You learn it in 7th grade chemistry.
  • 16 1
 Heat resistance isn't all about boiling point. If you get past 7th grade science into say physics you learn about specific heat. Specific heat is how much heat is required to raise the tempature 1 degree. And water has a very high specific heat giving it higher heat capacity. Sure it will boil at a lower tempature but it will require more heat to reach that point. If Dot4 truely has a specific heat half of water it would actually boil faster than water adding the same amount of heat since it will raise in tempature twice as fast as water and reach 311 faster than water can reach 212.
  • 2 0
 Owned.
  • 1 3
 I only speak to what I know.
Because my life used to depend on it, I know brake fluid.
Dry brake fluid has a MUCH higher boiling point than Wet brake fluid.
Obviously you don't know what the difference is, so I'll tell you.
'DRY' brake fluid is fluid in the container before you crack the seal.
'WET' brake fluid is brake fluid that has absorbed WATER-3.7% is the measuring point.
You'll notice the WET boiling point is MUCH lower than the DRY boiling point.
Why? Because it's absorbed WATER
Here's a graph:
www.cquence.net/media/wysiwyg/brake_fluid_chart.jpg
The more water you have in your brake fluid, the QUICKER it will boil, as it requires LESS HEAT to do so.
It doesn't even need to be that complicated however, as the ONLY thing you need to know(and what my original point was) is that driving the same car/riding the same bike around a given course, your brakes will last MUCH longer with fresh-uncontaminated- DOT 3/4/5.1 brake fluid, than they will with pure water in your lines, or even brake fluid contaminated with JUST 3% water. I'm actually a little scared that I even had to explain this, but I guess it makes sense when you consider the Kardashians and Miley Cyrus are what people are attracted to.
Then there are the other properties DOT brake fluid and Mineral oil have that water DOESN'T, i.e. lubricant, anti-oxidation(water itself CAUSES oxidation), a modifier-coupler, which reduces the amount of swelling of exposed rubber.
But that wasn't part of my original point.
IMO, this isn't even a debatable topic-water being more advantages in braking systems- so I'll leave y'all with this, then be on my way.
It's a free world(for the most part), and everyone is allowed to do whatever the heck they want to(within reason of course). If you feel your brakes will work better with water in your system, then all the power to you.
You'll certainly save money on maintenance. Of course you'll end up spending a LOT more money on repairs.
I just hope neither I, nor anybody I know is on the road in front of you, or on the other side of the road coming towards you.
  • 4 0
 I know brake fluid and I also know physics and the difference between a boiling point and specific heat. You can have the highest boiling point you want but if you have a very low specific heat it's till going to boil fast. I know as brake fluid absorbs water it lower the boiling point. And once you have the lower boiling point you still have a lower specific heat than water so you are losing the plus of water and losing the plus if brake fluid. It also sounds like your taking cars and not bikes. There is a big difference there. Bike brakes are at the highest 1/3-1/4 the temp of highest car temps so the need for such a high boiling point it not needed. If your boiling water in bike brakes I how to got you don't accidentally touch the caliper since it's going to be extremely hot since Al has a specific heat 1/4 water so if enough to heat has been generated to get water to boiling point the calipers will be close to 4 times higher so 800 degrees. What's better is that to boil dot 4 at 311 degrees the calipers would be cooler since it appears the specific heat is half of water so they would be closer to 600 degrees.
  • 1 0
 You are SEVERELY confused on that abomination of physics you posted. The caliper temps roughly reflect the fluid temp inside. The fluid typically runs a little hotter than the caliper. The fluid is heated from the piston. The piston is heated by the pads. The calipers receive a little direct heat from the rotor and pads in the pocket area. Don't worry about specific heat. Don't even try to understand it. Just understand the fluid eventually receives heat from the piston and the fluid heats the caliper body to near the same temp as the fluid itself. A bikes brake fluid most definitely can get as hot as a cars fluid. In fact, my bikes brakes run hotter than my cars front brakes during normal use, both rotor and caliper temps. They're actually surprisingly close to one another in temp. The difference is the bike's brakes cool down much quicker than the car's brakes. A downhill run has my calipers around 320F and rotors up to 700F. I would not want water in this system. I prefer my mineral oil with a boiling point higher than 500F.
  • 2 0
 Ass cake anyone???
  • 1 0
 I still have a right Edco crank from the early 80s in a box somewhere.
  • 1 0
 H2O brakes... I'd love to see them work in the winter time! Razz
  • 2 0
 They add propylene glycol so that it can't freeze, did you read the article?
  • 1 4
 Using water in your brakes would not work to well in freezing conditions, do they not go riding out side in Germany?
Also trials riders have been using water bled maguras for years so not new
  • 2 0
 Read the article. They addressed below zero temperatures
  • 1 0
 Pussy cake!
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