Hope Questions Lack of Parity in Shimano Micro Spline Licensing

Jun 6, 2019
by James Smurthwaite  
XTR M9100

Hope has raised questions about what they see as an unfair distribution of Micro Spline licenses from Shimano in a Facebook post last week.

Micro Spline is a new driver body standard that was introduced when Shimano first unveiled its XTR 12-speed drivetrain last year. Up until that point, Shimano had been using the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting, but that did not allow for cassette cogs smaller than 11 teeth. The Micro Spline freehub design has 23 rectangular splines that allows for the use of a multi-part cassette with a 10 tooth cog, as opposed to SRAM's XD freehub design, where the cassette is threaded onto the driver body.

When it first launched, Shimano said it would only be licensing the Micro Spline standard to DT Swiss, but since then several other brands have been granted licenses. And don't forget White Industries, who decided to create their own titanium freehub with 12 splines that just-so-happens to fit a Shimano 12-speed cassette...

XTR M9100
A Micro Spline freehub body is required to run a Shimano 10-51 tooth cassette.
Interbike 2018
White Industries' 12-spline titanium freehub design.

Hope had apparently had a fair few requests for a Micro Spline hub, and they even have the CNC programs ready to go, but without the license they can't actually sell them. In an effort to explain this to their customers, they wrote on Facebook on May 31, "We have been talking with Shimano ever since the new standard was announced. They stated that they would only offer it to OEM hub manufacturers and the hubs must be branded with the bike manufacturers name. They also said they would not release the licence to aftermarket hub manufacturers.

"Looking at the wheels and hubs listed around the XT and SLX launch it seems that they are stating different rules to each manufacturer which is disappointing for us and our loyal customers. We’ll continue to lobby Shimano for the licence and keep you informed of any developments."

We reached out to Shimano and they said, "In addition to our own XTR M9100 hubs, Deore XT M8100 hubs and wheels, and SLX M7100 hubs with a Micro Spline freehub, brands including DT Swiss, Mavic, Newmen and Industry Nine are licensed to produce their own freehub bodies with a Micro Spline structure to fit the Micro Spline cassettes. This means that these brands can offer complete Shimano-compatible 12-speed wheels. Additional hub brands using the Micro Spline freehub body will be announced in the coming season."

We also asked Shimano to clarify the conditions that must be met for a Micro Spline license to be granted, and why certain manufacturers such as Hope had not been granted a license, but they declined to offer any more comment to help demystify the situation.

We'll update you on any more news as we get it.


427 Comments

  • + 575
 Way to go Shimano. You showed up late to the party and now you don't want to make any friends.
  • + 98
 As a devout user of Hope hubs, their ability to be converted to numerous axle spacings far out weighs my concern of converting to Shimano 12 speed. I'll run my Shimano 11 speed drivetrain with another cassette if I ever needed that low of a gear before ever converting to this new horseshit.
  • + 31
 Sony often plays a similar losing game: BetaMax vs VHS, MiniDisc vs CD... and they continually get left out of the greater market while trying to control their own little piece.

That aside, could Hope easily tweak the geometry and offer a compatible-but-different interface?
  • + 67
 @chrod: Maybe they could license the White Industries standard....
  • + 4
 @defineindecline: agree. And hope does a fairly nice freehub and wide range 11 speed cassette of their own.
  • + 10
 @patrick2cents: Or do a 12 sp cassette with pawls on the aluminium spider and just don't care about freehub body anymore?
  • + 10
 @chrod: It was more a DAT vs MiniDisc battle (a battle won by Sony, but it kinda seem that, left playing alone, they were infact unable to convert the try). Another great example for your analogy would be HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray (and in that case, Sony won).
  • - 12
flag Euskafreez (Jun 6, 2019 at 12:07) (Below Threshold)
 That's just one side of the story, and even though I understand why Hope is upset I don't like the cry baby attitudes. For years and years Hope HG's free hub body were made out of way too soft aluminium. Having to grind the dents on a supposedly reliable hub ain't that great.

Instead of lobbying on social networks they should go to Sakai and ask to talk directly with the people in charge. It sounds like they have no idea on how things work with Japanese companies. They are great people to deal with, but you need to show them respect.

So dear guys back at Hope, go to Japan with some lawyers and hire good translators, and you'll have your Microspline freehub body, but calling Shimano out like that … big mistake!
  • + 52
 Shimano deserves all the criticism they're getting for this. Also I can't wait to try XT.
  • + 3
 @chrod: Apple has played this game for a decade but had the leverage to do so when they were the only phone manufacturer producing quality products in terms of fit and finish. Now that the competition has caught-up, I’m typing on an iPad with USB-C. I’m not sure what the future holds for Shimano though...
  • + 12
 @Euskafreez: From the facts related by the article alone we can't guess what has been the previous communication process in between Hope and Shimano. Main citations "[...]We have been talking with Shimano ever since the new standard was announced[...]" vs "[...]but they declined to offer any more comment[...]"

So Hope is probably pissed off, yes. They trust that bringing the current issue public will help, maybe. Hoping to leverage riders reaction, for sure. Industry negociations 2.0

Now what has really happened, what has been said, what has been tried, etc all those types of question remain pure speculation.
  • + 5
 @Euskafreez: didn't know that bit of history about Hope's HG freehub bodies, so that was interesting and seems like the most likely reason for withholding the licence. My experiences with Hope hubs have been positive, but with SRAM drivetrains.

That said, there seems to be a rash of oversharing in the bike industry lately where consumer opinion is courted, rather than companies hammering things out behind closed doors. I agree with you that I don't like it because we may not be given all the facts. Shimano are not being bad guys for keeping their reasons private. That's entirely their right, and it's probably prudent business practice. To really hammer it home, we simply don't have all the facts.

I do hope Shimano can work something out with Hope, though.
  • - 9
flag EnduroriderPL (Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29) (Below Threshold)
 @Euskafreez: 10/10
  • + 1
 @fneuf: my point exactly is that no one but Shimano and Hope knows exactly what happened. And Hope ain't giving us the full story, just what they want and or think is useful. So drawing conclusion with not enough details … no thank you.

Upsetting Shimano with a public stunt ain't a smart move from Hope. But like you said negotiations 2.0 so who knows … except it's a risky way to negotiate with Japanese Wink .
  • + 13
 @Euskafreez: I've had the se issue with Dt, ringle, and pretty much anyone that makes Aluminum freehub bodies. My solution has been to only use cassettes with larger carriers to distribute the load. Hope also has steel bodies. I doubt this is the issue.
  • + 11
 @mgrantorser: not a hope issue, you are right. This gouging happens with pretty much all alloy bodies - DT Swiss is no better. Doesn't really affect the hub in use, but the steel freehub body option is nice. Titanium would be even better, like White Industries.
  • + 6
 @defineindecline: It's not completely about the extra gears. The Shimano 12-speed allegedly shifts amazingly both up & down, and under power. But limiting the license to only OEMs (who likely already buy a bunch of Shimano stuff) is pretty anti-competitve. Qualcomm just got nailed for doing something similar with 4G modems
  • + 9
 @chrod: Hope already has to deal with the slight differences with slightly Shimano vs SRAM and mtb vs road differences on 10/11 speed HG. The support nightmare of trying to explain that their non-licensed micro-spline freehub will actually work with shimano 12-speed, yet not actually mention shimano, is just not worth it

I mean, Hope is actually trying to give Shimano their money, butSshimano says no because they're actually a competitor. Similar things have happened in tech, and the shimano "side" of almost all those cases ends up being found to be anti-competitive.
  • + 0
 @cwatt: Apple didn't have any restrictions (that we know of) on who could get a 40-pin or Lightning connector license for Made for iPhone stuff, though. If they, say, wouldn't let Samsung get the MFi license and build an iPhone compatible alarm clock, then that matches the issue we see here.
  • + 3
 Hope's call to Shimano:

"Sorry I don't see you on our list of licensees. I see DT, Hop, Industry, Mavi...dam it Barry! You left the freaking E off of Hope. Can you start using spell check please?"
  • - 3
 @cwatt: They succeed in creating hype, and they simplified the user experience, yes. They reshaped a market centralized on specs, geeky, to a market centralized on look, perceived value or whatever yes.

Their design language was different, elegant, for sure. They paid attention to details, check. But they were not the best at fit or finish in the first steps. Early iterations of the iPhone were not so ahead in terms of fit or finish.
  • - 9
flag drivereight (Jun 6, 2019 at 13:04) (Below Threshold)
 @defineindecline: Take it up with HOPE if you think is horseshit! They are the one air ring our their dirty laundry!
  • - 1
 @chrod: Sony learned from Betamax, they co-developed the CD, as well as DVD and Blu Ray. They regularly enter themselves into competition with themselves, making sure they will be on the winning side in the process. I would say Shimano are taking this approach, but seem to have forgotten about SRAM in the process.
  • + 0
 @chrod: Sony's Blu-Ray disks haven't done too bad... Win some and loose some.
  • + 8
 This. They are just shooting themselves in the foot by not opening it up like Sram did with XD.
  • + 9
 @Euskafreez: Yeah, and HOPE's XD driver also does not follow the spec to the letter which is why certain version of e13 casettes had to use a shim if mounted on a hope hub....
  • + 1
 Easy answer, make the hub more expensive but get a free Shimano free hub (that way they aren’t selling anything so rules don’t apply)
  • + 3
 @Euskafreez: you mean like in tommy boy when they lobbied for callahan auto parts?
  • + 9
 Maybe they’ll just piss Hope off and they’ll make their own drivetrain. With blackjack... and hookers!
  • + 7
 I think it's a big strategy move from Shimano, and it's pretty sound when you look at it.

They're going after OEM sales, and one of the largest manufacturers of bikes, Specialized, and their Roval wheels are all on DT Swiss hubs. A quick browse around anything that's not Trek of Giant will show DT Swiss wheels on most bikes in the ranges. They're not trying to convert people over to it as an aftermarket item, they're locking people into it on an bike purchase. That being said, DT Swiss 350 and 240 hubs kind of form the bread and butter of a lot of custom wheel builders as well, they're by no means lacking in that department.

It's a deal that mutually benefits DT Swiss and Shimano when negotiating OEM sales with bicycle manufacturers; who WILL want to spec their bikes with Shimano drivetrains/brakes and will consequently bring DT Swiss wheels in to achieve that. It'll be interesting to see how it works, but you can probably rest assured that huge bite of the 2020 and 2021 range of bikes come specced with 1900 and 1700 wheelsets and SLX and XT.
  • + 5
 I agree as gives me a reason to run sram drive chain over Shimano simply because I already have (and prefer) hope hubs
  • + 2
 @Zaff: Giant uses both Star Ratchet and 370 (easily convertible to Star Ratchet but honestly a fine 3-pawl in its own right) systems on their higher end bikes Wink
  • + 0
 @mnorris122: Cheers for the heads up, I didn't reaseach that one enough and thought they might have done their own hubs with their wheels. But holy shit, it only makes the OEM argument stronger. Giant and Specialized is a pretty big chunk of the market before you even look at the others.
  • + 2
 @Zaff:
No they're not
Formula makes the OE'Roval hubs. Some Roval wheelsets come with DT Swiss internals.
Who do you think makes those hub shells?
  • + 2
 Greedy fvckers
  • + 2
 @YoKev: Those DT-ish Roval hubs found on the Expert/Pro/S-Works wheelsets use DT freehubs...and now from what I understand the lower-end DT hubs are appearing in the lower-end Roval wheelsets too. So yeah.
  • + 2
 @Ferisko: I totally dig the E-Thirteen cassette, And your 100% right..If Hope(and a few others) did design it exactly I would not have to deal with the shim stuff. Ok for me to deal with it while being just annoying enough, but my costumers would not want to have to try and tackle that.
  • + 2
 @YoKev: All Roval wheelsets, for at least as long as I can remember, come with DT Swiss internals. Without a doubt all the newer ones do. DT Swiss even made the special end caps for their 142+ rear hubs when they were running that system.
Even if you're right about the shell, it's a semantic point.
  • + 1
 Shimano makes a great product (usually) but I don't like their attitude.
  • + 1
 @Ferisko: I read that recently on e13’s site, and wondered what they meant. I’ve had an X01 11 speed and now a GX eagle cassette on my Hope hub and they have been fine. I figured it must be something with e13’s janky two piece cassette design.
  • + 1
 This comment pure gold...
  • + 2
 All the protected standards are a bollocks.

Look what happened with the 20mm/15mm axle bollocks.

Shimano should just open it up.

Hope surely sells morehubs aftermarket than a couple of those who have the licence.

They should just make their own that's almost the same.
  • + 1
 @YoKev: if you dig a little deeper you will find that both you and @Zaff are both correct
  • - 3
 I agree that companies should keep shit like that behind closed doors. A rather silly move by Hope, that looks good only to hardcore fanbois and luddites. First Pole shat on all industry, at the same time blowing the ether with bullshit claims of their bikes performance worthy of Trek or Giant (or Spec from not that distant past), then Sick Bicycles changed the climate and we all know how it went, not to mention all they years of Chris Porter stirring the pot then coming out with Geometron that supposed to be a God send and then he attached led plates to it (for god fkng knows what reason, only Steve Jones can understand since he is faster on Ebike than on DH bike DH track - waiting for elite to ride ebikes). Now Hope. Small “authentic” “woke as fuk” players are starting to play big boy bullshit game on a really slippery slope. And it is a slippery slope because a big portion of their clients are not keep it real die hard fans, these are people who spend more time earning money than looking on the internet, and if they see what obviously is bullshit signaling, they will go elswhere and woke as fuk hub and brake market is rather big. As to Shimano hating, nobody made bigger mess in the hub department than Sram and if I were to point a finger at Shimano for anything it would be their luddite cup and cone bearings, making their hubs one of the worst choices man can make, especially in pricy XTR version. You have to be silly to buy any Shimano wheel-set and fkng crazy to buy XTR.
  • + 1
 Pearl Harbour pattern...
  • - 5
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 7, 2019 at 3:56) (Below Threshold)
 @zokinjo: you mean Japanese leaving money in Switzerland?
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: I have to disagree. Shimano brakes are worse than cup and cone bearings. Personally I don't mind cup and cone bearings, but I do mind the brake biting wherever it feels like from one pull to the next.
  • + 2
 @Zaff: Your argument that this is a move to increase oem sales is a very weak argument not based upon facts.

First, even excluding Trek and Giant, DT wheels are NOT "on most bikes in the ranges." Not even close, companies spec'ing Novatec and Formula hubs are much more common.

Second, while people who buy a bike with Shimano stuff might be "locked into it", this in no way increases their oem sales. They also aren't really locked into Shimano if they buy a bike with it. You could run a SRAM shifter and derailleur on the new Shimano drivetrain.

This move has nothing to do with oem sales, it's simply about Shimano trying to control things for no reason other than to keep Hope from getting the standard, which ironically hurts Shimano's efforts to have the new standard adopted. Shimano isn't being a strategic genius in any way, they are simply control freaks.

Your poor theory is completely unfounded and makes no sense, but since it's sensational and conspiracy sounding you get positive Pinkbike props.
  • + 3
 @Flowcheckers: LoL Are you serious?

You say this "Your poor theory is completely unfounded and makes no sense, but since it's sensational and conspiracy sounding you get positive Pinkbike props."

Right after you pull this out of your ass "This move has nothing to do with OEM sales, it's simply about Shimano trying to control things for no reason other than to keep Hope from getting the standard..."

If you're not trolling you are an idiot. 1 simple question for you: How long did SRAM keep XD to themselves before they licensed it to everyone?
  • - 3
 @m1dg3t: For quite awhile. I'll acknowledge that point, but it is completely unrelated to your weak argument and no defense of it either. I'm not trolling, just calling out a very weak and unfounded theory.
  • + 3
 @Flowcheckers: LoL Ok. Now I know you're trolling, and that's being nice.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 7, 2019 at 5:26) (Below Threshold)
 @jaame: I agree But to some degree only, because when their brakes work they float my boat rather well when it comes to power build up and max power. Feelwise XT would be my favorite brake IF it worked. However their hubs are a fricking disgrace, I wasted each single one I had, either through seizing bearings or freehub getting fkd. A shame because their rims and general build is really good, on par with factory Mavics. I had XT AM wheelset and it was as bombproof as Mavic Crossmax SX. Even stronger than my current home made DT Ex1501 on EX471s. But off course the hubs died. Bearings in the front, freehub in the rear. First FH body that died I manages to replace. Second, not so much because if fkng broke off. Each OEM Shimano hub that I had seized. So did hubs of my friends, including ones of a GF of an experienced bike mechanic. I wouldn’t even piss on a XTR hub if it was on fire. The bearings in my front DT350 are starting to die. I know that you can pretty much buy a compete XT front hub in the price of a pair of bearings to DT but I don’t need to relace the fkng wheel. I don’t need to read drama from
hope but I think Shimano are making a stupid/dicky move with that patent thing. If I were them I’d give it out for free. And when someone acts this way, people (like white industries) are going to fk with it.
  • + 0
 @m1dg3t: I'm still waiting for you to explain how this move increases Shimano oem sales, which you have yet to do.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I don't mind servicing cup and cone bearings. Pretty cheap and easy to do. From what I understand in the comment section, if you're doing it right you should destroy your rims in less than a year anyway (or you're not riding hard enough). So having to replace a broken hub from a perfectly fine rim is a bit of a no issue. I do realize I'm doing it wrong (my rims hold up fairly fine) but I'm stepping up for the generic progressive hardcore skilled Pinkbike rider here.
  • + 0
 @Flowcheckers: I never said anything to that effect. I don't argue with idiots.

Dunning Kruger is strong here.
  • - 1
 @m1dg3t: You wrote: "They're going after OEM sales"

You have nothing but insults and distractions, which isn't backing up your weak theory very well. Why can't you simply be content that your stupid conspiracy post got the 6 upvotes from uncritical and naive pinkbike readers?
  • + 3
 @Flowcheckers: "[Shimano] would only offer it to OEM hub manufacturers and the hubs must be branded with the bike manufacturers name. They also said they would not release the licence to aftermarket hub manufacturers."

Just read the article, it doesn't take a super sleuth to figure out.
They now have three tiers of 12sp Drivetrains and Brakes (and have broken from launch tradition and released XT and SLX simultaneously), as well as a reputable and prolific wheel brand in cahoots. If you don't think they're going to product managers and giving them a lot of really good reasons to be speccing Shimano stuff on their different tiers of upcoming bikes, and the subsequent deals from having a certain percentage of their range with Shimano gear, you've got your head in the sand.
  • + 4
 Any other company they'd be banished for this behavior...lucky for them, they have stuff that works
  • + 1
 Just make Ti stuff...patent pending won't ever become a patent anyways
  • - 1
 @Zaff: You're trying very hard but have still yet to back up your original weak post. One question: How does denying Hope the license help their oem sales? Do you think people who have Hope hubs will buy a new bike so they can get the new Shimano stuff? That's the only way that your theory makes sense, and its absurd to think anybody would do that.
  • - 1
 @Flowcheckers: I never said that.

You are a moron. That isn't an insult. It's an observation.
  • - 1
 I don't understand the uproar here. You develop the technology, patent it, therefore get to make the strategic decision to license it to a partner that fits with that strategy. Its called business. Maybe Hope needs to stop whining, put on their big-boy pants, take a business course, understand Japanese business culture, and approach them accordingly with a proposal that works for both parties.
  • - 1
 @m1dg3t: I'm just searching for the logic in your writing and there is none. You have yet to explain how denying Hope a license helps Shimano oem sales.

You are much better at hurling personal insults than backing up your weak, no fact assertions.
  • + 0
 @Flowcheckers: I never made that claim you troglodyte. Learn how to read.

If I was insulting you you would know. I'm just making observations.
  • + 0
 @Flowcheckers: I'm afraid I'm with @m1dg3t on this; you are a moron.

They're in partnership with DT Swiss (and a few others) to mutually benefit one another by supporting each other's products; and clearly a big part of that is in offering OEM deals together. DT Swiss is supporting Shimano by offering very viable wheel choices to their drivetrains, and Shimano scratches their back by incentivising DT Swiss purchases if people want to adopt their drivetrains aftermarket. You don't create a partnership like that and then allow someone to take a cut of your friends pie (not without paying at least).

At this point, if you want to go aftermarket on a Shimano 12speed setup, you're limited to wheel options that are supporting their OEM specs. Again, reinforcing the OEM focus on the sales! They're targeting product managers, not individuals. They want mass orders, across multiple price points and in large volume and they've now got a competitive module to sell. Namely; M1900's with SLX, and M1700's with XT, and 1501's or XMC 1200's with XTR would all be the natural fits to each price bracket.

It's a leverage point for getting a larger royalty from aftermarket sales who want to get on board with a Microspline option. Hope needs Shimano compatibility more than Shimano needs Hope compatibility.
  • + 1
 @Zaff: Your weak talking points are completely muted by the fact that Shimano has granted other hub and wheel manufacturers the license.

Denying Hope a license in no way gives Shimano a "leverage point for getting a larger royalty from aftermarket sales who want to get on board with a Microspline option."

What leverage??? Denying Hope a license has absolutely nothing to do with Shimano's negotiating power with bike manufacturers. You're talking apples and oranges and nothing about any of it makes any sense.
  • + 1
 @m1dg3t: You never made that claim? Then what the hell were you talking about? A bunch of nonsense is all you have to show. You came out so strong and confident in your original assertions and now you've gone silent except for your weak personal insults.
  • + 2
 @chrod: That's basically what Onyx did, I believe
  • + 2
 Great, another incompatible proprietary standard, all to get 1 less tooth on a gear more suited to gravel than trail. How an industry eats itself.
  • + 1
 But they brought pizza and beer!
  • + 1
 @Euskafreez: and also bring suitcases of $$$$
  • + 1
 @defineindecline: Amen. Just bought my first Hope Pro 4 front hub. Bought it because of the ability to use it on a Boost bike in the future. Nice enough hub that I'll consider getting the rear. I'm still trying to wear out my 10 speed stuff.Wink
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers & @Zaff: you're both right, opening license to hope doesn't directly cannibalize oem sales. That said, if I were Dt, partnering with shimano on an oem push for a product people have been waiting years for, I'd be insisting on retaining exclusivity for a period of time. Hope is huge in that aftermarket and custom hub space, but so is Dt. Industry is a relative newbie with a history of issues. I would bet money this is DT leveraging their partnership with shimano to squeeze hope. There is almost certainly a time limit on it, and in a year or two it will be moot.
  • + 1
 Maybe Hope is in a rush because they feel Superstarcomponents may overtake them in the hub department. Made in in house in the UK, decent quality, just cheaper because they work direct to customer. Being able to offer that new cassette interface may give them an edge over their competitors.
  • + 0
 @mgrantorser: I agree with most of your very sensible comment. But it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to say that Shimano is denying Hope a patent in order to increase oem sales, or somehow have more leverage in negotiations with bike manufacturers, which is what @zaff and @m13gt have been stupidly saying and then personally insulting me for calling out their stupid, nonsense theories.

Yes, it totally makes sense that Hope would give DT some exclusivity.
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers: in denying hope, and granting Dt exclusivity they may be able to push Dt to a new price point for oem sales, one that would make it a better deal to spec shimano vs sram. In doing so they may well increase oem sales indirectly by denying hope license. I personally view hope and king as dt's main rivals (if a bit down and upmarket respectively).
  • + 1
 @mgrantorser: By "push Dt to a new price point for oem sales" do you mean that they would cut DT's profit margins by getting them to lower their profit margin on oem sales? Just trying to understand what you meant.
  • + 1
 @Flowcheckers: I took it to mean, push them to make a slightly lower level hub or wheelset.
  • + 101
 I want to love Shimano and I want to ride their stuff again. But proprietary interfaces are the best way to alienate real riders who wrench on their own bikes and maintain parts for a decade. Just make the rules, publish the rules, and let anyone who complies with the rules be part of the party. Or face obsolescence. Our sport will truly suck if we're left with just sram.
  • + 17
 Yea it’s a puzzling move. However people will vote with their wallets and Shimano will ultimately only hurt themselves.
  • + 4
 @cyrways: especially with their more aggressive approach to preventing NA region folks from buying Shimano products outside of the country and more pricing 'protection', I can't imagine they'll retain the same market share they have now compared to SRAM. One of the big draws, for me anyway, to their 11-speed products was the cost I could get them at compared to SRAM. Now, there isn't much reason to consider them when you are comparing 12 speed options, both due to pricing and having to acquire a new freehub
  • + 33
 "proprietary interfaces alienate users?" Someone tell Apple this...
  • + 3
 @shinook: The Shimano cassettes will still be way cheaper than SD driver ones from SRAM, because they don’t have to be one piece.
  • + 8
 @shinook: Agree to disagree when it comes to the region ban when it comes to buying Shimano parts from outside of NA. The Shimano distributors in NA having to service what they don't sell, that sort of business model doesn't last long usually …

Instead of buying cheap Shimano parts from Europe, you'll buy them from a NA shop online. The NA distributors will make money, you'll save money from your LBS, it's a win win unlike now. Because now, the Shimano parts american people buy from Europe, they come from Shimano Europe or the grey market. And you buy them without paying any import tax. It was meant to happen!
  • + 1
 There are other wide range 12 speed cassettes that could be used with the rest of the Shimano drivetrain
  • + 1
 @level4designs: I tell my girlfriend this all the time, but they got her good

sent from my lg v20 that still works
  • + 4
 @cyrways: I think the only party that will hurt here is Hope; there are more consumers looking for Shimano-loyal drivetrain that will simply go with an alternative hub compared to the number of Hope-loyal customers who will switch to Sram (or Box)
  • + 3
 @kleinblake: I was at an enduro this weekend and spotted a few bikes near the Shimano truck (not in open sight) with XT shifter/derails and GX cassettes, maybe they work together?
  • + 2
 @shinook: sram has also done this (no more sram at crc, not that their kit is worth riding), only pinkbike has decided not to report it.
  • + 2
 @level4designs: that's why I left Apple almost two years ago and haven't looked back since.
  • + 1
 @Mekamonkey: I believe so. There was a vital BOTD a little while back running an eagle shifter with an XTR derailleur and he claimed it ran as if they were made for one another
  • + 0
 @level4designs: Tell SRAM while at it!
  • + 8
 @kleinblake: Shimano has patents on certain shaped shifting ramps that reportedly are the best, for both up and down, and under power. When reviewers say the new 12 speed stuff shifts under power better than the competition, its mostly because of the Shimano cassette.
  • + 8
 @Euskafreez: I hate that you've been downvoted for pointing something reasonable out in context to a market scheme that was unsustainable. Shimano themselves have even said this.

Sorry people, Shimano pricing is now reflecting what the product actually costs. This isn't something you can downvote away, it's just the reality of the situation.
  • + 2
 @Mekamonkey: Yes, they work together.
  • + 3
 This is classic Shimano, even though they haven't done this in a while. When Saint was first released, to run the RD (which everyone wanted) you needed a shimano axle to mount it and that axle came with the hubs. But the hubs were centerlock, so shimano centerlock rotors were needed too. But those rotors didnt work well with other brakes, so now shimano brakes were part of it.

Of course we found other ways around it (a hadley 12x165 axle worked) and we'll figure this one out too if its worthwhile.
  • + 2
 Hope is a direct competitor. They make brakes, cassettes, cranks, bottom brackets, among other things. It's not the worst idea. The only companies licensed to use it only manufacturer wheels. Chris King will be next I'm sure. Especially with Syndicate on the payroll.
  • + 2
 @MikeAzBS: that is true, but some people, and I think it's quite a lot, want hope hubs. They sell a lot. People like the facts that they are manufactured in their own factory by natives, and that they are reliable and the backup is excellent, even ten years later.
A lot of those people will just buy hope hubs with an XD driver and use a seam cassette, or something else. Shimano will therefore lose out in the sale of cassettes, for those kind of customers. They have kind of pushed hope back to being a second tier brand too, which must hurt!
  • + 0
 @sherbet: That's the way users roll on Pinkbike, no big deal Smile . Too bad people don't realise what's at stake.

@jaame: The moulded piece of aluminium Hope machines, it comes from Italy not from the UK …And what about the bearings they use? Don't get me wrong, I like the fact they do as much as possible 'in-house' and it's also great that brits support the company by buying and using their products.
  • + 3
 @Euskafreez: well whatever. Everyone has seen that video of the forgings being turned into hub shells in their factory in the UK. Are the CNC machines Japanese? Is the aluminium smelted in China and forged in Italy? Maybe. Do people still think they are made.in the UK? Absolutely yes. Made in the UK, as much as they can be these days, and made by real blokes who actually care aboit bikes. And backed up for years to boot. You can buy spares for big un hubs from 1996 if you want! That kind of image creates a strong following. Plus their hubs are pretty good and affordable.
  • + 36
 Been mountain biking for probably over 25 years, mostly on Shimano stuff. Between their wandering bite point brakes, late showing to 12 speed, and now this proprietary splined set up - forget it. Over the past year I've weeded out Shimano stuff in favor of SRAM brakes and drives - which has worked every bit as well, if not better than Shimano. Bye, bye, it was nice knowing you.
  • + 3
 So you now prefer the SRAM proprietary set up?
  • + 36
 @FuzzyL: Sram licensed the XD driver to anyone who wanted it, so yes, absolutely.
  • + 4
 Same, particularly with drivetrains. Last shimano drivetrain I had was XT/XTR 11 spd and absolutely loved it. I still prefer the shimano shifter to Sram's but the gap is small, and Sram has left shim in the dust since releasing 12 spd and Shim isn't doing anything to help themselves.
  • + 7
 @tgent: yes the license for the xD driver is open and free but they kept the locking system of the cassette proprietary, that why you don't see other xD cassette than the sram one and they are pricey. The only exception is e13 that found a way to lock their cassette without infringing on any sram patent
  • - 4
flag BryceBorlick Plus (Jun 6, 2019 at 17:36) (Below Threshold)
 In general, SRAM is first to the party but the stuff isn't thorougly tested. Shimano comes later but it works exactly as advertised. The bite point thing is a bit odd but, hey, at least theyre not elixirs.
  • + 0
 @BryceBorlick: Shimano has been manufacturing bicycle components for at least twice as long as SRAM has existed.
  • + 1
 @tgent: In the beginning they licensed it to exactly one company - pretty much what Shimano is doing now.
  • + 2
 @BryceBorlick: they may not be elixirs but theyre also not sram codes rsc,which imo is the best brake on the market. The wandering bite point is a huge issue and has been for years. My friend just returned his brand new xtr 4 pots for the same problem so it’s not fixed. Shimano take the piss out of us riders. Sram held their hands up and not only replaced but fixed their issues. I’m loving my codes. Who’d have thought having the lever bite in the same place every time could be so important. Loving the power too.
  • - 3
 @mikelee: SRAM brakes aren't really a SRAM product. They are Avids. SRAM bought Avid because they couldn't design their own brakes. Ha.
  • + 4
 @m1dg3t: well as sram own avid then they’re their product. As long as they keep up with the consistency I’ve had the last 6 months I’ll be happy.
  • - 2
 @mikelee: My bad. They are indeed a SRAM product as SRAM bought their rights. If SRAM didn't buy Avid what would SRAM have for brakes?

I hate semantics.
  • + 5
 @m1dg3t: Stop being semantic then. You were the one that tried to make a distinction between sram and avid when it amounted to nothing.
  • + 4
 @m1dg3t: that’s like saying if Fox didn’t buy marzocchi they wouldn’t have the grip damper. The point is they did and now it’s their product.
  • + 32
 As a self confessed Shimano fanboy, this seems really backwards. Given the recent kick up the butt from SRAM with their 12 speed offerings, surely it would make better business sense to allow as many quality manufacturers as possible to produce these new freehub bodies so they can shift more Mx100 drivetrains?
  • + 7
 I would think so too... Being second to the 12-speed game, and then having distribution issues, I'd think spreading out as quickly as possible would be the best play. But I'm no marketing expert so what do I know
  • + 0
 @JamieMcl: Exactly, Shimano is coming late to 12 speed with a new standard, and then makes it hard for people to adopt the standard by denying the license. When you combine this with centerlock and the new odd chaining standard on their cranks, it's as if Shimano is intentionally trying to become a fringe manufacturer who only sells derailleurs and shifters.
  • + 3
 @richard01: Thank you very much for posting this man, that was some great insight. It's unfortunate to see companies essentially forcing competition out with bully tactics rather than purely on the merit of the product.

I will say I'd be skeptical that many bikes would ship with a crankset that retails for near a grand USD, but a high end does exist, and people do want them.
  • + 29
 Isn't this similar to how the SRAM XD driver was introduced? SRAM and DT were exclusive partners developing the technology and licenses were rolled out slowly afterwards.
  • + 33
 Yup. But no one remembers that now. Similarly, no one will remember this in three years when 12-speed Shimano drivetrains are the benchmark.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: you dont become the benchmark by being 3 years behind. Eagle GX is pretty refined, and with the ultra cheap OE SX eagle, I imagine sram will maintain the OE dominance they’ve gained.
  • + 10
 @lognar: You become the benchmark by being the benchmark. SRAM is constantly compared to Shimano...because Shimano is the benchmark.

You say Shimano is behind on 12-speed drivetrains. I say SRAM is behind on drivetrains that just work, all the time, no matter what - and THAT'S a benchmark.
  • + 9
 @TheRaven: Absolutely deluded. Go and have a look around a bike shop. Shimano aren’t competing with sram anymore they’re competing with sunrace, Magura, e13, hope in the aftermarket game. Sram absolutely dominates sales these days and that’s why their products are so much better because they just have more resources to throw at stuff. This was Shimano’s attempt at a big comeback and if I was running sram I really wouldn’t be concerned. They can’t even make the cranks and hubs they made a big song and dance about last year which are only just getting into store now, who knows when xt / slx will ever arrive?They’re clearly having issues somewhere if sram just shut up shop tomorrow and decided it was going to stick making fishing rods there’s not a chance in hell shimano could step up and fill it’s shoes. Get your head out of the clouds it’s not 2009 anymore.
  • + 8
 @lognar: eagle gx is garbage. You probably enjoy olive garden
  • + 13
 @TheRaven: I have been riding Shimano cassettes since 2010, for the last 1,5 year I have been using the 11sp XTR. Recently I bought XX1 11sp and todqy rode a trail to put it to the ultimate test. And it is nowhere close to XTR. Shifts are loud and I may actually like it more but what I don’t like is that when shifting fast (like only Shimano shifters can) the chain wanders over cogs more than one could expect and takes more time than necessary.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: I imagine no one remembers it because it wasn't the same argument.

Given Sram's current domination people actually seem to forget that XX1 was a huge gamble by Sram, and was never expected to takeover the drivetrain market like it did. It was reserved for only elite/rich riders who liked the idea, and as such widespread XD driver availability wasn't a priority. When X01 and X1 hit the scene for more riders the XD driver was almost everywhere.

Microspline however is the basis for the entire performance level Shimano platform, so to only have limited freehub availabitily is a huge stuff up. Having ridden both brands over the last 10 years I prefer Sram, but I admit I like the new XT and SLX drivetrains a lot. However with microspline availability the way it currently is I wouldn't consider buying either.

Shimano's days as the benchmark are over. Sram has it's fair share of errors, but Shimano like Fox and Rockshox too *doesn't* work flawlessly all the time. I've been in the industry for the last decade and have a good idea of failure rates.
  • + 9
 @thenotoriousmic: uh oh sram's biggest fanboy is back

"who knows when xt / slx will ever arrive"

uh, it will be available in shops in 8 days.
  • + 10
 @thenotoriousmic:

And that's why Shimano is pushing OE and making Hope take a backseat is to take back marketshare in the high-end mountain bike market. The high-end mountain market is a small piece of the pie for Shimano. You don't see SRAM on entry bikes or road bikes, more money there. Were their mistakes with the roll-out, I don't even think Shimano would deny that. But the people who are hating on Shimano are really just afraid that their Eagle drivetrain just became devalued. I use eagle, I know Shimano 12 will be better. And in 1 years time SRAM will return to being a tier 2 drivetrain. Time to sell.
  • - 1
 @NickB01:

HG freehub came out before you were in the industry and that's the only thing that's new here. Pretty sure 12 speed hasn't failed yet and am also pretty sure they come on road bikes now too. Campy started that. People just can't get enough range these days.

www.pinkbike.com/news/SRAM-XX1-One-by-Eleven-Drivetrain-First-Look-2012.html.
And feel free to look over the release of 11 speed XX1 article and readers comments. Doesn't seem like a gamble, looks like it was well accepted as great innovation at the time and SRAM did very well because of it. Like I said, people can't get enough range in their gearing these days. It may only have 1 more tooth, but more is better.
  • - 2
 @xeren: so if I wheel my bike into my local bike shop in 8 days and tell them to put a full xt groupset on it, what do you think they’re going to say other than I need a new wheel?
  • + 14
 @thenotoriousmic: Sram have more resources to throw at stuff. Hahahahahaha! Just a quick look on Wikipedia shows that in 2017 Srams revenue was $725 million, Shimanos was $2.93 billion. Just because Sram are winning in the mid to high end OEM mtb market at the moment, doesn't mean they have more resources.
  • + 7
 @thenotoriousmic: now you're making an argument about the microspline freehub, having just been schooled on the release date of all the components and not wanting to admit it
  • - 6
flag lognar (Jun 6, 2019 at 16:53) (Below Threshold)
 @pargolf8: dropping insults in a civilized discussion doesn’t make you’re point more credible, it just makes you sound like a douche.
  • - 3
 @xeren: ha no I read the same press release as you except I just wasn’t naive enough to be believe it. I’m sure some shops will have it in 8 days just not many. Just look at xtr only just starting to see it now over a year later.
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic:
I think they'd say, good you were smart enough to choose DT swiss over Hope, that's awesome, let's get you a freehub and slap that drivetrain right on...
  • + 8
 @TheRaven: accurate. They couldn't even make a working front derailleur, so they decided to ditch it.
  • + 4
 @Circe: How dare you! What gives you the right to not only know/remember that fact, but to then share it with the rest of us?

You obsequious automaton.
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: True that. Shimano has been making cycling components for much longer than SRAM has existed. It took SRAM like 10yrs just to make a thumb/trigger shifter for crying out loud. Gripshift LoL

SRAM wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Shimano.
  • + 4
 @jabbi: Yes. We need to keep this in perspective here people. SRAM is not "dominating" anything...they are still struggling to maintain a foothold. Shimano does 4x the business SRAM does...and Shimano doesn't even have a suspension brand. Not even close.

Funny that the fanboy is now being downvoted out of existence before I even get to read his replies to my comments. LOL.
  • - 3
 @rtclark: What does any of that have to do with anything? Bikes in general were also around long before I was, but these arguments weren't about what Shimano was like 20 years ago it's what it's been like over the last 5 years or so.

We're talking about new drivetrains and new standards, so the HG freehub is irrelevant and is the only thing *not new* here. 12 speed isn't really out yet due to so many supply issues, but the 11 speed systems have been out a while and they sure had a few problems. I'm sure there's a few people here who have had issues with XT and XTR cassettes, warped SLX and XT derailleurs, and some of the most adament Shimano supporters I know won't deny they chew through shifter cables at an absolutely alarming rate.

And because XX1 won a lot of support at release in no way means it was a sure bet, why do you think Shimano insisted on a) making 10 speed for so long, and b) insisted on making their 11 speed systems 2x and 3x compatible? 1x11 paid off for Sram, but it was never fully expected to replace their entire range.

And yes Sram is dominating the OEM market for performance bikes, ever since GX Eagle was released I can't think of any mass produced high end mountain bike brands that still use Shimano outside of niche providers who offer both. Also of course Shimano makes more revenue, they own the market for nasty OEM drivetrains for super-budget bikes, and offer fishing equipment.

And I love the irony of the Shimano fanboy calling out other fanboys. I have Ultegra on my roadbike and XTR on my mountain bike so while I prefer Sram I'm hardly a fanboy.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: ah, moving the goalposts, I see.

I never said every shop would be carrying it on their shelves. I said it would be available. if you were smart enough to order it at your shop you would have it on June 14th. or you can buy it at one of the millions of online shops out there

you're really bad at arguing. let me guess you're going to tell me there aren't actually millions of online shops only thousands of them and then feel like you "got me"
  • - 2
 @NickB01:
I forgot about how much the M8000 derailleurs chew up cables.
  • - 4
flag Flowcheckers (Jun 7, 2019 at 3:39) (Below Threshold)
 @Chris97a: It wasn't just the M8000 issue, also happened on their 10 speed derailleurs. For years Shimano produced and sold what I would consider a defective product, along with their mushy and inconsistent mineral oil brakes. Yet for some reason Shimano fans still pretend everything they make is engineering perfection.

But I do like the Shimano push pull shifting configuration, it feels more precise. I might buy a Shimano 12 speed shifter and derailleur, but I won't buy their hubs or cassettes because I already have several xd compatible hubs. Once again too late to the game, Shimano.
  • + 6
 @Chris97a: I haven't heard about this. I had an XT m8000 rear derailleur for three years on my only mountain bike and it didn't chew even one cable.
  • - 1
 @jabbi: I’m mostly here for the ???? but you can’t compare the two companies total revenue as representing market share. Shimano’s fishing division absolutely eclipses their bike division.
  • + 8
 @Flowcheckers: I have never, and I mean NEVER, experienced this "shift cable eating" issue you speak of. Not on any of my bikes, nor any of the guys I ride with, nor any of the nearly 100 bikes that have come through my shop in the past three years. This is the first i've EVER heard of it.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 5:49) (Below Threshold)
 @xeren: no I’m not moving the goal posts. I’m just saying that xt / slx will be super hard to find like xtr is now over a year later.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 5:55) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: you’re the deluded fan boy. I don’t give a shit about sram or shimano I’m totally on the fence calling out your bullshit. I’m a years time I could well be riding and loving the new xt but your going to still be saying the same blinkered head in the sand fanboy shit you’re saying right now. You won’t even admit that shimano have fallen behind despite the fact they’ve been slaughtered by sram in the sales department. I only care about mountain bikes. Not interested in road bikes fishing rods rowing boats etc it’s not relevant to me.
  • + 6
 @whambat: You got that backwards.

www.shimano.com/en/ir/library/cms/contents/Summary%20of%20Financial%20Results%20FY2018-YE.pdf

Page six section four - Bicycle division 79-81%, Fishing Tackle division 18-20%, Other 0.1-0.2%.

Again I need to reiterate that Shimano's bicycle division does not include suspension, which is somewhere around 25% of SRAM's revenue. Finally, Shimano holds 71% marketshare in bike drivetrain, SRAM has 15%.

So yeah, SRAM is not even close.
  • + 8
 @thenotoriousmic: XTRs delay is/was due to a factory fire. You keep making stuff up and shifting goal posts though.
  • + 6
 @TheRaven: I stand corrected. My data and memory is probably a decade or two old I guess.
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 6:29) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: yeah I heard that I just didn’t believe it. They also had to admit they couldn’t make the cranks and hubs and here we are again commenting on another negative shimano article. Never happens with sram does it? Or am I just making that up as well?
  • - 4
flag Flowcheckers (Jun 7, 2019 at 7:42) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: Its more accurate to say SRAM wouldn't exist without Shimano's slow innovation.

SRAM's 1 to 1 shifting ratio and 1x drivetrain were the big innovations that broke Shimano's domination.
  • + 4
 @Flowcheckers: of all things they have SRAM should be thanked for XX1. First good wide range and narrow wide which literally changed the game. Pity they haven’t refined it to bring it to shifting quality of their high end 9 and 10 sp stuff. Because their 11sp buried all performance advantages they made over Shimano in 9/10 era. I have the XX1 cassette now and it is far from being as smooth as XX or PG990.
  • + 4
 @Flowcheckers: 1-1 shifting a big innovation? REALLY? LOL.

Definitely1x was a big win for SRAM, no question. But the list of things that Shimano has done to revolutionize bike drivetrains is nearly endless. At number one though is quality stuff that you can count on to work. With Shimano you don't need reviews, there is no such thing as "early adopting"...when it's available it's fully tested and will work perfectly.

Shimano isn't a big innovator, and there's nothing wrong with that.
  • + 3
 @thenotoriousmic: Yeah I heard that Jesus is real too. What's your point? Are you a flat Earther too? LoL
  • + 3
 @Flowcheckers: SRAMs shifting/shifters are garbage. Maybe their top tier is decent/good, but I couldn't care less about those products. SRAM went 1x because they don't know how to make a properly functioning front derailleur/shifter.

The only thing SRAM has over Shimano is marketing.
  • + 0
 @TheRaven:
Well the cable fraying issue is a real thing if you ride in rough terrain.

The only 2 guys in the last shop that I worked at had this issue a lot. They we're running m8000 as Shimano had given us 4 drivetrains, and a discount on wholesale prices, to try and get back in good with us after we stopped stocking their product as it was cheaper to buy it from chain reaction then it was from Shimano USA.
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: Right, and within those divisions, high-end MTB market is very small niche in the entire pie. Shimano dominates low end, city and road markets, and I don't think many pinkbikers realize just how much bigger road bike sales are than MTB. Most road privateer teams run Shimano parts due to reliability, and 70+% of the top UCI teams run Shimano. Competition and parity are great though, so once 3D and rapid manufacturing become more scalable, expect to see more manufacturers like Box and TRP.
  • + 5
 @Chris97a: That is not a common issue. This is literally the first time i'm hearing of it...including here on Pinkbike.

I did a google search just for fun and there were like three results that match what you are talking about. Maybe there was a bad day at the casting plant that produced a run of derailleurs with flashing at the lever arm cable guide. I know SRAM had exactly that happen with a pretty big run of XO derailleurs back in 2011. Could be the same thing.
  • - 3
 @m1dg3t: You are completely wrong... again. SRAM went 1x and the narrow wide chaining because they saw a trend where riders were doing it on their own, and they improved upon it. Their front derailleurs were inferior to Shimano's, but that's not why they went with 1x.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 8:32) (Below Threshold)
 @m1dg3t: I use both shimano and sram. I actually ride my bike with shimano on it more. I’m running and maintaining three bikes. Sram stuff just works better, lasts longer and needs way less maintenance and when I jump on my sram equipped bike the difference is noticeable straight away. Shimano is cheap and it’s usually heavily discounted in the uk where sram isn’t. If you’re not really that fussed and want something that’s going to do the job shimano is good for that but it’s not touching sram when it comes to performance though that could have changed with the new stuff I have no loyalties to ether company. Interested to try the new stuff if it’s better than what SRAM’s doing then I’ll buy it. f*ck front derailers though I don’t think I’ve used one since the late 90’s thank you sram for not knowing how to make a front mech. Wink
  • + 4
 @motard5: Yes, and Shimano NEEDS competition. The last thing we need is to have only one drivetrain choice, that'd be a disaster whether it were Shimano or SRAM.

I'm just pointing out that Shimano couldn't be further from "in trouble" or "slipping" or "losing". They are completely dominating, and that's not going to change in the near future.
  • + 0
 @m1dg3t:
It is a matter of opinion that the shifting is garbage.

I greatly prefer the ergonomics of the SRAM shifter and am occasionally annoyed by the double up shift feature of the Shimano shifters. I prefer the more mechanical feel of SRAM shifting over the super smooth, I wonder if it just shifted, feel of Shimano. I also thought it strange that they seemed to add a hard detent feel to the m8000 shifters that I currently own. It seemed like they were aware that feel was missing and so they tried to add it back in. Like how some cars will make engine noises come through the speakers to make you think your engine sounds cool.

I also understand that this is just my opinion and can 100% understand that others will view this differently.
  • - 3
 @TheRaven: mate just go and have a look around a decent bike shop tell me if you see any shimano and then go and have a look around Halfords and tell me if you see any sram. You stop seeing shimano past the deore mark. Honestly wake up. It’s not even close and you’re only talking about brakes and gears they’re dominating in the suspension game as well and because it’s all proprietary stuff shimano are missing out on sales because you can’t put a shimano part on a sram system and slowly move over if that’s your preference and now with the new driver they’re making it even harder to justify moving over knowing it likely involves a new wheel.
  • + 7
 @thenotoriousmic: One more time:

Shimano bike component marketshare: 71%
SRAM bike component marketshare: 15%

Every one of my local shops has far more Shimano drivetrain on the floor than SRAM drivetrain (that's on bikes, they stock pretty much nothing in aftermarket parts from either brand). Of course that's like 3 shops within a 30 min drive because I don't live in the PNW.

You want to have an intelligent and mature discussion come with some factual data. Otherwise i'll just watch you disappear as always.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 9:09) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: You are living in an total dreamland. Just go and look at any decent manufacturers website and see what they’re using on their bikes. It’s not even close. No point even bothering with someone who won’t even acknowledge that and not sound deluded. I’m actually struggling to think of a company that uses shimano. Giant maybe?
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: what source is your shimano/sram marketshare data from?
  • - 2
 @thenotoriousmic:
If you do an overall comparison he is likely correct. Just not in the mountain bike world outside of the entry level. Road bikes, commuter bikes and low-end bikes are totally dominated by Shimano.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: That's an old 2015 article. This 2018 article says SRAM sales were up 15% recently, while Shimano was only 1%. SRAM has been gaining oem in all categories consistently, year after year, though Shimano still dominates overall.

www.businessinsider.com/sram-bicycle-components-company-chicago-tour-interview-2018-3

And yes, 1 to 1 shift ratio back in 1995 was a big innovation that led to SRAM gaining on Shimano, whether you remember It or not. Its mentioned on their Wikipedia page and I remember how much of a improvement it was over Shimano 2 to 1 shifting.
  • - 2
 @Flowcheckers: in the business insider article, Day from SRAM says shimano has $2 billion in component sales to SRAM’s $700 million. Which is surprising to me. Id be interested to know the breakdown of mtb component sales. Likely shimano is ahead from road groups and real low end OE stuff.
  • + 4
 @Flowcheckers: I have the exact same link in my list.

There's not a lot of data out there on this stuff, so you have to get bits and pieces from different sources and do the math.
  • + 5
 @lognar: SRAM hasn't been in the game long in comparison to Shimano, but has exponentially increased their high-end MTB presence, in particular US and UK, where consumers purchase much more high-end stuff. Makes sense as Americans excel at corporate deals, margin mgt and flashy new products to keep the rich consumers wanting more. Trek HQ is 3 hours away from SRAM's Chicago HQ, and now they basically run Sram top to bottom, even their UCI team. Shops warranty Sram at a much higher rate, but Sram overcomes this with great service. Japanese are not really known for their post sales service, as they expect their product to be reliable from the start. Japanese mfg are much more conservative, focusing on refinement, reliability, and value. This is why pro road bike teams, who have WAY more to lose with a mechanical than any MTB team, chose Shimano. Its why basically any bike sub $1000usd around the world will have Shimano.
  • + 5
 @TheRaven: Sram supplied trigger shifters at a time when Dual control was forced upon us, that was their way in the OEM door! I quite liked Dual Control but appreciate I was one of about 4 people that did!
  • + 4
 @jabbi: Dual control wasn't "forced upon us". It was a rare misstep by Shimano. It failed to catch on. No different than XX1, XD, or Boost...except that those ideas caught on. If Dual-control had been received by the MTB community the way XX1 was, we'd be hailing it as one of Shimano's "great innovations".

That's the risk of innovation...you gotta stick your neck out and hope it doesn't get cut off. You can lose big. But you can't win if you don't try.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven:
Dual Control had no chance of catching on the way XX1, XD(I think you are just trying to say 1x drivetrain here) or boost hub spacing, because it was an awful idea.

I don't think I remember anyone really speaking out about wanting to accidently shift when they are trying to brake or accidently brake when they are trying to shift.

People were already running 1x10 and SRAM just made that system work for more people by offering a bigger range.

Hub spacing had been discussed as being to narrow since the mid ninties and so it finally happened after almost 30 years. They could have just adopted the dh width of course but I doubt many xc racers and road riders would have accepted that move.
  • + 2
 @Chris97a: A lot of opinion there. TONS of people panned XX1 when it came out...think about it, there was a lot to question - a gigantic over-complicated, hyper-expensive cassette that requires a new freehub for one frikin tooth of range, and a drivetrain that contained fewer components but cost way more. Horrible chainline, reduced overall range...I mean at that time it was hard to see a clear advantage. It eliminated the front derailleur...great...but front derailleur haters were in the extreme minority at the time. It took awhile for everyone to really come around. All of 1x's deficiencies are still problems, they are just problems we have agreed to live with because we have come to like the advantages. It's no coincidence that the 11-speed generation is when SRAM's drivetrains went to crap, and when Shimano started taking forever to get their stuff to market.

On the other hand, dual control was simply bringing to MTB what already existed and was widely accepted (even preferred) in road biking. It was actually a much safer gamble than 1x in it's time. What no one thought of at the time though is that what was good for road was in no way guaranteed to be good for mountain.

You have to look at these things in the perspective of the time in which they came to light.

Oh and Boost is still moronic, as is DUB. Two ideas that are even more ridiculous than Dual-control.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: A couple points:

Your first link is from 2015, so the 71% you keep quoting is likely outdated.

Second link says SRAM was UP 15%, meaning increased 15% over previous year. Not 15% total marketshare, that’s incorrect.

About 20 seconds of searching found this, which is much more relevant:
www.bicycling.co.za/bikes-gear/the-fight-for-the-crown-shimano-vs-sram

It says that SRAM and Shimano dominate the MTB and road groupsets, with Shimano having slightly more at 50%, which means SRAM would have nearly all of the other half. To say Shimano is completely dominating, and SRAM is struggling to maintain a foothold, is simply not true.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven:
The XX1 cassette was the exact same construction technique as the X0 10 spd.

The XD driver allowed the small tooth to be as small as 9 teeth, but more relevantly allowed the biggest cog to be a 42 instead of a 47 to get the same range. Imagine if 1x11 originally came out with a 47 and how much push back there would have been.

How exactly is a hub with wider hub flanges or a particular size bb bearing "moronic".

Before boost, being a big guy that pushes pretty hard, I could not ride a 29 er rear wheel without a high end offset rim. Boost strengthened the rear wheel significantly without being as wide as a dh hub.
  • + 3
 @lj17: No i meant 15% marketshare. I made no reference to the sales increases by either company because they were irrelevant to what I was saying.

Shimano has 50% of the BIKE COMPONENT market. 71% of DRIVETRAINS. SRAM is at an advantage when you talk about bike components because they have offerings in several categories that Shimano does not - most significantly suspension. Despite that fact, Shimano still triples SRAMs bike component sales. So yeah, there's no twisting of numbers that gets you to any other conclusion.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: Shimano gets those numbers due to being in the super cheap component market while also holding a significant advantage in the road market, period. SRAM components are not on every bike at Walmart. That is a big chunk of the market share advantage that Shimano has.
  • + 4
 @Chris97a: The XX1 was the same construction technique as the XO cassette, and also way bigger, 50% heavier, and requiring a special freehub.

SRAM has released nothing smaller than a 10t for the XD driver because 9t cassettes suck. They know that. And yes, you are absolutely right people would have been freaking out about a 47t cassette at that time...hell they freaked out about a 42t cassette. Nonetheless, now we have 50-51t cassettes.

A hub with flanges wide enough to make a difference would be great...perhaps like "Super Boost Plus"...but even that is marginal. Boost is of zero benefit - see Pinkbike's own comparison test for proof. One thing Boost does offer though is increased cost. and forced obsolescence. So the industry loves it.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven:
Man you are bought in 100%. If the original 1x11 cassette was this awful tank of a cassette tell me how a 11spd gx cassette is lighter than a 11-42 xt cassette.

Yes they tested and decided to not make 9 tooth cassettes...true.

Super boost plus is just a DH hub with offset flanges instead of centered. It is not a new standard, and was always available. The off set from center on the drive side of a 135/142 hub is tiny, something like 11mm in some cases so adding another 3mm does do quite a bit to strengthen the rear wheel as triangulation is one of the most effective ways to do that. I don't think it is necessary of 27.5" wheels but might as well make it a standard hub size, across the board.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven: I know you meant 15% marketshare, but that is wrong. You don’t understand what the article you linked to is reporting.

And stop throwing out 71%, that number is from 2015. You said there isn’t much data out there on this, but that doesn’t mean you can use data from 4 years ago and assume it is still valid today.
  • + 3
 @lj17: Remember i said "do the math". It appears YOU are the one who doesn't understand the links i provided.

But I'll play along - my numbers are from 2015. Can you provide some more up to date numbers? Otherwise we'll just go with the most recent numbers available.

Besides, it doesn't change the point i was backng up.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven:
You REALLY like Shimano. We get it.
  • - 3
 @TheRaven: For the third time... The article you linked to as evidence for your claim that SRAM has 15% marketshare... says nothing about 15% marketshare. I'm done trying to explain to you what the 15% mentioned in the article was referring to.

I already did provide a more recent article from Bicycling from Oct. 2018. It claims that Shimano has 50% of groupset components, which is dominated by Shimano and SRAM. Here comes the math part.. If there are only two main players and one has 50%, then the other must have close to 50%. The reason SRAM would have slightly less than 50% is because there are other manufactures like Campagnolo that would have a small percentage.

If the point you're trying to back up is that Shimano is "completely dominating" and SRAM "are still struggling to maintain a foothold", you have yet to provide anything that actually backs that up.
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 17:07) (Below Threshold)
 @Chris97a: you don’t see shimano on bikes people who are actually into mountain biking would buy. Can’t talk about road bikes I don’t know who’s winning there and I’m yet to check out SRAMs fishing range but where it comes mountain bikes it’s not even close. Who actually sells shimano equipped completes? I actually can’t think of anyone.
  • + 1
 @lj17: I linked to three articles to support my claim, because you need to read all three in order to find the information I found. I did the leg work for you, and posted my references in case you wanted more information. I'll give you a hint - the 15% marketshare number DOES NOT COME FROM THE ARTICLE YOU ARE STUCK ON.

Secondly, your math on the 50% claim is wrong. You don't understand the article YOU posted as reference. I didn't use that one as a reference because it's worded for noobs. Anyway, as I mentioned previously, Shimano has about 50% of the BIKE COMPONENT MARKET, and about 70% of the BIKE DRIVETRAIN MARKET. Yes that's from 2015 because those are the newest numbers available on the net. Yes they certainly have changed by now, but a couple percentage points does absolutely nothing to change my point so why are we going on about this?

I'm done bickering with you over inconsequential details. Until you can find some real numbers that are more recent than mine, this argument is a waste of everyone's time.
  • + 2
 @Chris97a: I never said the XX1 cassette was an awful tank. These days it's among the lightest 11-speed options there is.

As for boost:

www.pinkbike.com/news/does-boost-spacing-really-make-a-stronger-wheel-1.html

No difference.
  • - 6
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 7, 2019 at 18:45) (Below Threshold)
 @Chris97a: don’t even waste you’re time. The guys a complete and utter moron living in a dream world. You won’t talk any sense into him. He’s like a crazy religious fanatic except for some bizarre reason shimano is his Jesus. He’s picked a side and that’s that and won’t listen to reason.
  • + 1
 @thenotoriousmic: I'm not the one being downvoted out of existence.

We all know who the real fanboy is. Chris and LJ may be partial to SRAM but they at least engage in intelligent debate about the merits of the brands. I appreciate that. You on the other hand know nothing but hyperbole and insults. Thats what makes you a fanboy, and it's also why you never get the hint that downvotes are supposed to give.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: Ahh.. I see it now. It all makes sense and you’re totally right. Shimano is killing it, and SRAM is really struggling. I guess that’s why you never see SRAM specced on any bikes.
  • + 4
 @lj17: Never said any of that.

You know what, maybe it's an honest misunderstanding. You showed up in the middle of this thread and perhaps didn't see what my original point was. I got sucked into discussing a bunch of inconsequential details so it's easy for someone to get the impression that I was making a very different point than I actually was.

here it is, my original point, taken from my 3rd post in this thread -

"We need to keep this in perspective here people. SRAM is not "dominating" anything...they are still struggling to maintain a foothold. Shimano does 4x the business SRAM does...and Shimano doesn't even have a suspension brand. Not even close."

That's it. And it's absolutely true. That's not to say that SRAM isn't doing great for a brand that's 1/3rd as old as it's biggest competitor, and that's not to say that SRAM doesn't have some very compelling offerings. It's just to point out that this idea that SRAM is absolutely dominating and Shimano is on the verge of collapse is utterly laughable. The fact that Eagle has put them on the "front page" so-to-speak and given them a strong presence in the hyper-bike market has little bearing on the big picture. For now at least.
  • - 4
flag Chris97a (Jun 7, 2019 at 20:46) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven:
From the article you linked, and I had read earlier.

"Bill says that Boost is a good thing"

"Boost 148 affords a better spoke bracing angle"

The whole point of that article was that having even spoke tension is perhaps more important than given credit. I agree with that idea and that is the reason that I adopted the lacing pattern of 2x on the drive in the back and the disc side in the front, with 3x on the other 2 sides. When I was younger I would build the drive side with straight gauge and the DB spokes everywhere else(pre disc brakes).

The type of wheel in that article is basically a DH hub with more narrow flange spacing so it may work due to it being boost, definitely would fall apart if tried with a 135 hub.
  • + 5
 @Chris97a: no it would definitely not fall apart when tried with 135. I know boost angles because I personally drew such wheel in CAD as well as many other options. The best solution has been introduced by Cannondale which offsets the whole 142 hub giving even better triangulation as well as spoke tension than boost. Similar effect can be achieved by asymmetric rims. And then those idiots, I’d hope one of them reads it, uneducated fkng idiots who came up with super boost 157 which creates the biggest spoke tension disaster.

There is no defending of Boost, there just isn’t. A couple of engineers have stated that like Cesar Rojo or Joe from Starling. Nearly every smaller frame maker will tell you that. It is an nothing more but lowlife profiteering creating like lots of obsolete garbage just like DUB although in defense of sram that comes from idiots who decided to bring a roadie standard to MTB where it saves 10g over 24mm axle, greatly compromising bearings on pressfit BBs of which not all are dumb. And even Hope plays that stupid game with their overcomplicated crankset. 30mm axle... fk...
  • - 4
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 8, 2019 at 2:23) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: wake up mate it’s not 2009 anymore. Shimano aren’t competing with sram anymore. sram won and they won years ago. They have totally kicked shimano out of mountain biking. You can’t buy shimano equipped bikes anymore absolutely dominated by sram. I get you really like shimano but you’ve got to face facts mate. If it is true and they’re making those numbers then it shows that they’re not really that bothered about mountain biking so why are you so blindly supporting them? Anyway I do hope shimano sort themselves out and actually start competing with sram again. Let’s see what this new stuffs like.
  • + 6
 @thenotoriousmic: you are pretty one sided in your arguments. One would have to agree that SRAM has more presence on complete bikes with NX and GX for sure. That said, they are not the only groupsets in the world.

Shimano gears are super reliable and the shifter is definitely better with the two way and multi release. Shimano cassettes are dinosaurs... but the SRAM cassettes are by all accounts heavy and shit at GX level, and hideously overpriced above that level.
Shimano brakes are pants, the two piston ones are anyway.
Apparently XT derailleurs chew cables (?!) but I've only heard that for the first time on this thread. I've read a hundred times that GX derailleurs shit the bed given the slightest chance.
It's swings and roundabouts for me. I absolutely would not buy GX eagle. I think XT is super reliable but also super uninspiring. I would not touch Shimano brakes again until I have been assured the bite point issue has been buried.
New 12 speed XT, yes I will absolutely give it a whirl when the time comes.
Shimano admitted themselves that 9000 xtr was wide of the mark. That doesn't mean it was shit. It just wasn't 12 speed. They also repeatedly state that in continental Europe they still sell a shit ton of 2x drivetrains. Just because people on pinkbike don't use 2x doesn't mean no one else in the world does.
The reason I like Shimano is that it works and it keeps working. It's not sexy but it is affordable and reliable. I don't mind waiting to get something that works and rightly or wrongly, my general feeling is that SRAM stuff isn't that reliable if you compare XT to GX - the level of stuff I spend my own money on.
SRAM gets a lot of OEM not because it's better, but because they offer sweet discounts for complete builds when speccing rockshox at the same time. And don't get me started on rockshox. The pricing for aftermarket is 90% of fox, but the quality is closer to 60%. The reviews might say it's closer than that but in my experience after a fork is two years old fox is just better. And rockshox rear shocks? Oh dear. And the reverb? Never had one and I never will.
I know fox is not.shimano, but I feel they occupy the same realm of substance over style. They put their money into engineering and not marketing.
  • - 3
 I did an exhaustive internet search to see if anybody on the planet had a Shimano tattoo and found nothing. Which one of you Shimano die hards will be the first to get a Shimano tattoo?
  • - 3
 @jaame: honestly out of everything shimano does it’s the shifter I dislike the most. It feels cheap and I struggle to find the down shift though the new shifters have way more adjustments so maybe that won’t be such a problem in the future. I was running a gx cassette before I broke a wheel and went with an xt cassette because no xd driver on the wheel I had. Again definitely felt like the gx cassette was better I’m keeping it as a spare for when my x0 cassette wears out again have a three year old gx mech scratched and battered and other than changing the cable all I’ve had to do is straighten the hanger. I’ve never had a shimano mech go longer than 18 months before ether bending it or it going floppy at the pivots. Shimano mechs normally bend or twist before the hanger does I’ve found.
I’ve got slx and xt two pots and they’re absolute garbage if you don’t do lever bleeds on them all the time. Never have to bleed my guides and I’ve totally abused them honestly they should have f*cked up by now and I’d have nobody but myself to blame.

Fox vs rockshox is a totally different thing as far as I’m concerned I’ll happily run ether. I can’t decide which is the best.

I’m quite new to sram after years of only riding shimano and I still ride both I just think sram are making much better kit right now, works better, feels nicer, lasts longer and doesn’t need constant maintenance to get it running good. There’s no reason I wouldn’t run shimano again in the future of the new stuff turns out to be better or as good at a cheaper price.
  • - 4
flag Flowcheckers (Jun 8, 2019 at 10:31) (Below Threshold)
 The struggle is real.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns:
Just looking at a random 135/142 hub and it only has 19.5 mm of offset on the drive side. The scariest wheel I have built for myself was a 11spd road wheel which had 11 mm of offset on the drive side.

Every low cost 29er wheel I have ridden pre boost felt like I was rolling the tire off the rim every time I turned left hard. I always say the old 135 spacing could worked for me with a high end offset rim on a 29er and I never had a problem on 27.5 wheels.

Boosts reason for existence instead of just going to DH hub widths was because of front derailleurs, is my understanding. That reason is now pretty much gone so perhaps we will see everyone move on to 157. I would definitely give that a shot and see how that works with my size 12 feet and being a little duck footed.
  • + 4
 @Chris97a: it must be in your head. Wheel stiffness is determined to the biggest degree by rim stiffness and while you could experience this with some cheesy alloy XC rims I doubt you could point me a boost/ non boost hub in a blind test already with the rim like DT XM481 or Mavic XM427. With DH rims like DT Ex511 EX630 and pretty much any carbon rim it’s a non issue.

If Sram and God damn Trek wanted to improve triangulation they would do what Cannondale did, offset the whole hub. Just like I wrote before. Better triangulation, much more even tension between drive and nondrive side. It is even more ironic considering that around 2007 Bontrager had asymmetrical rims...

But both Sram and Trek wanted to capitalize on pseudo improvement. They added some more points to what Boost theoretically does, like allowing for shorter chainstays, well the whole 3mm shorter.

The reality was, Trek wanted Boost because they were pushing Plus tyres, particularly 29+ tyres (that we all now know were a big miss) and they needed to offset the chainring so that chain doesn’t rub on the tyre, and as they did that, they needed to offset the cassette as well, especially since chainlines for giant spinning rear saucers sucked already.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns:
All of what you are saying are true points. I will only add this one caveat.

If you are trying to make a given rim stiffer when building it into a wheel your biggest factor is to make the spokes shorter. That is why I adopted building all rears with 2 cross on the drive side and 3 cross on the disc side. This also evens out the tension a little.

The second biggest factor in making that given rim have more lateral stiffness is to add triangulation to the spokes. Boost did accomplish this by adding about 15% additional triangulation to the drive side.

For sure there are other ways to make the rear wheel better, like offset rear triangles, offset rims, 157 hub widths. All of these other solutions may be adopted in the future. I think boost does make an improvement especially on an entry level spec bike where there is less likelyhood of seeing offset rims, rear triangles or carbon rims. I think the adoption of dh hubs by the xc racers is unlikely for at least a little while.
  • + 1
 @Chris97a: I am 100% with you on what you wrote when it comes to physics of a wheel. It’s just that as I wrote, offset the whole hub and you have all the benefits and no boost OEM market mess. Make everything 157 and no offset and the same is achieved. There’s more to 157, chainline in general as pointed to me by Antidote designers. You want a good chainline where you have your chain most often and where you put most power. In case of 157, a 73mm shell is perfectly suited to that optimal gearing if you use boost chainring (achievable for Sram by only altering the offset of the spiderless chainring)

But they wanted to profit with no regard to OEM clients. And anyone running Bontrager or Sram wheels becomes an OEM client rather quickly. It doesn’t even end with the rear hub. The 20mm front hub had lots of space wasted with flanges moved to the inside. Potential to bring back 20mm with upgraded wider flange spacing was there and they could have made fools out of Fox/Shimano.

Whatever, crying over spoiled milk. Cheers!
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns:
Boost chainrings were only used on boost bikes that didn't have clearance for a non boost(very uncommon), or for customers that would not listen to reason(more common) at the last shop I was at.

Makes sense that those chainrings would actually be useful on a 157 hub.
  • - 1
 No reason to go wider than Boost, WAKI. Loic Bruni is winning World Championship and World Cup DH races with a 135mm rear axle. He probably gets a little Boost in his times from the more aerodynamic frame.
  • + 3
 @Chris97a: *Jesus I meant aftermarket clients not OEM...

@Flowcheckers: totally Spec deserves lots of good words for keeping the 135/142 hub. They were also the ones who were sane enough to use 6speed rear. Sram made yet another DH specific groupset With that stupid cassette cluster instead of making a narrow one and a new damn hub with a new narrow freehub. That would be a genuinely DH specific drivetrain. Hope has their DH hub and it’s brilliant
  • - 5
flag thenotoriousmic (Jun 9, 2019 at 12:38) (Below Threshold)
 @TheRaven: what downvoted by you? My hearts broken. Keep saying ridiculous stuff and I’m going to keep on making you look stupid. I’ve told you exactly why and how sram have wiped the floor with shimano the best you’ve managed is a downvote. Well done babes you really showed me. Anyway enjoy your plastic thumb shifters, sheet metal cassettes and sticky mech clutches... we’ve all moved on to better things. Xoxo
  • + 2
 @jabbi: you have 6 likes at the moment, so it looks like at least 5 other people liked dual control. I did. It realky cleaned up the appearance of my bike and works great 10 years later.
  • + 1
 Heresy!!! Deprivation!!! @woofer2609:
  • + 24
 hard to understand Shimano´s point of view:

1. they should be happy if their stuff is compatible with Iconic manufacturers like Hope

2. a customer who is running a Hope wheelset (propably in new condition) is surely not interested in the Investment for a completely new rear Hub-Wheelbuild and so on...just to run the Shimano System,this customer will likely stick to stuff wich fits more easily
  • + 6
 Yeah, as far as I remember, Hope is the most popular manufacturer for aftermarket handbuilt wheelsets. You'd think Shimano would want in on that action even if it's a lesser piece of the pie than OEM.
  • + 1
 @chrod:

LOL... not hardly. Far more people build aftermarket wheelsets with Novatec hubs than with Hope hubs.
  • + 1
 @deeeight: and OEM as well. But Shimano has their heads up their ass on this one. What % of market share in a year from now vs 10 years or even 5 years ago. Epic fails.
  • + 2
 Shimano (and SRAM) only really care about OEM installs. That market dwarfs the people buying groupsets to stick on an existing bike. So they've licensed to the hub manufacturers who get high OEM spec and don't really give a shit about anyone else.
  • + 1
 @jaydawg69:

OEM sales are the bread and butter of any component maker, not individual sales doing custom builds and/or upgrading existing bikes. Limiting who can produce hubs for the new standard while they increase production of the cassettes isn't going to hurt them in the slightest long term.
  • + 1
 @deeeight: But It is hurting their reputation, I would suggest you read the comments from the top if you doubt it. You state that they are increasing production of cassettes, but by denying manufacturers the new standard to use the cassette, they obviously are hurting their cassette sales and the adoption of their new standard. From my perspective, moves like this help turn Shimano into a fringe component manufacturer, since xd has already become so popular.
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers:

Shimano has NEVER given a flying f*ck about the comments of pinkbike users. They're a BILLION dollar company. Denying manyl brands licenses to their patented developments is not going to hurt their reputation in the slightest long term, nor will it hurt their cassette sales at all. XD only became popular because there was no alternative from Shimano yet. Now that there is, XD is going to fall back to second place just as SRAM has for every other area shimano produces something better in.
  • + 0
 @deeeight: Denying a license to a popular hub manufacturer that would allow them to sell Shimano cassettes to the owners of those hubs isn't going to hurt Shimano aftermarket cassette sales "at all." ????

Reread what you wrote, you desperately and repeatedly exaggerate things flagrantly to the point of reducing your credibility. Go get a Shimano tattoo!
  • + 2
 @deeeight: have to agree with Flowcheckers on this. By limiting what hubs can use your design, there will be less OEM able to use it. Novatec (etc) are the biggest hub OEM and not having them on it will force the manufacturers to stick with SRAM.
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers:

Aftermarket sales are a drop in the bucket right now compared to OEM sales, and that's a fact that isn't going to change just because you cannot accept it. But what the hell do I know..I've only been in the bike industry for nearly 30 years.
  • + 2
 @jaydawg69: Most OEM's that buy Novatec manufactured hubs are doing it for drivetrains that use shimano, microshift or sunrace cassetes that mount to the HG freehub body, NOT to XD Drivers. As was pointed out elsewhere in this topic already, even SRAM uses the HG freehub standard for their NX groupset, as they're unable to produce a XD compatible cassette cheap enough for that price point.

Also you're all conveniently ignoring the fact that shimano HAS already allowed DT to sell micro spline hubs aftermarket. and will eventually open up the license for aftermarket sales to other makers, but at the moment their deliberately making that sales corridor exclusive to the brand that helped pay for the development.
  • + 1
 @deeeight: I like the SRAM model better by letting it as a free for all and judging by the comments, others do as well.
  • + 2
 @jaydawg69:

IT WASN'T ORIGINALLY a free for all...SRAM developed XD with DT, who had the original exclusive license to produce hubs using that freehub body design (other than SRAM) for aftermarket sales when the group was officially announced in July 2012 (with availability being indicated as October). A month later Mavic was listed as a licensee for OEM wheelsets. By december of 2012 other brands were indicating they were either going to be offering freehub bodies, or were testing them, or already had them in production but they were simply retrofit kits for existing hubs, or they were OEM only complete hubs/wheelsets. I've been to the official SRAM website and read the license agreement for producing XD driver hubs. While there's zero royalties required, a LICENSE has to be agreed to by SRAM before you can just start producing the hubs. Shimano is not doing anything different with Micro Spline thus far as any manufacturer (who has a license) has indicated. They're simply exercising some restraint in how quickly they license other hub makers to use the patented design. And Hope and Stan's are moaning and whining because they didn't meet with Shimano's approval.

I have only one set of Hope hubs built into a wheelset that I use and the lack of reliability in its freehub body is why I never bought anymore Hope hubs afterwards.
  • + 19
 There is so much we don't know here. Having personally negotiated literally 100's of cross-licensing agreements between companies large and small, I can assure you that a license agreement like this is going to have some "fine print." For example, there is almost certainly a covenant-not-to-sue clause, a cross-license inclusion/exclusion clause, various language dictating the relationships to third-parties, etc.

I'm skeptical that Hope is a pure "victim" that they paint themselves to be. They may be balking at some of the language, Shimano may be playing the bully, who knows. My point is, we don't have sufficient information to simply assume this is all on Shimano.

That said, I'm glad I'm a DT fanboy and not a Hope fanboy.
  • + 2
 whoooaaa there fella, stop talking sense! this is PB -- where we let our illustrious leaders guide our anger!
  • + 1
 It sounds like your familiar with this subject a little. Is there Anything that would prevent Hope from selling a hub that just so happens to fit Shimano cassettes?
  • + 1
 @taquitos: Kinda what I was wondering. I wonder if the patent for MicroSpline would cover say...11 Splines vs 12. Or some other arrangement that is different, but compatible.
  • + 2
 @PHeller: White Industries already proved that this is possible. Shimano even signed off on it. Maybe White will license their design to other manufacturers.
  • + 1
 @TheRaven: Sorry, didn't know White Industries was making a revised MicroSpline that wasn't identical to Shimano's design. The question is: why did Shimano need to be involved at all? If it was a non-infringement design, but it worked the MicroSpline cassette, isn't White Ind able to do with it what they want?
  • + 2
 @PHeller: I imagine White wanted to head off any litigation that could arise. Just because you are careful to create something that doesn't infringe on a specific patent, that doesn't mean that the patent-holder won't still drag you through court if they don't like it.
  • + 1
 @PHeller: Here is the patent application:

patents.google.com/patent/US20180346064A1

The patent application claims any freehub design that has at least 10 splines! If it is granted, white industries might still be in trouble.
  • + 2
 @jasonmiles:
I can't believe some of the parents that get granted.

I always liked about patenting even tooth counts on bike chainrings. Don't steal my idea.
  • + 1
 *patents not parents

*joked not liked

...
  • + 2
 I once knew a fellow who threw creative wording of his application (and the fact the US patent office approves virtually anything if the fees are all paid up front, as well as being woefully understaffed with examiners who have a real education) was granted valid patents for what was essentially... The wheel... and Fire.
  • + 16
 They will get a licence eventually, I wouldn't worry too much. This is business, I'm sure they have licenced the design to DT, I9 etc with a clause that they can't licence it to X or Y for X months/years, and DT/I9 have paid for that privelage up front, cash in the door for Shimano. Why else wouldn't they want to licence it to Hope or other brands? There has to be some sort of business/contractual reason not to, surely?
  • + 16
 incompetence? I love shimano, but they haven't seemed to have their crap together lately
  • - 7
flag laxguy (Jun 6, 2019 at 11:32) (Below Threshold)
 @xeren: you really think they're THAT incompetent? NO OTHER explanation makes better sense?

jeez.. PB readers are real sheep these days..
  • + 1
 Maybe they are fearing hope will use aluminium for microspline and kill microspline reputation.
Maybe they can't produce enough cassettes for everyone (does novatech have licence?).
Maybe I'm just making things up out of my ass.
  • + 3
 @faul: Micro spline already uses forged aluminum. It might be because Hope tried offering their own cassette standard already and failed ? Maybe they simply expect them to try again. Maybe they'd be fine with them creating a unique freehub spline pattern that was cross compatible (as White Industries has done). Why doesn't Hope license from White Industries ?
  • + 5
 DT and I9 are two of the biggest OEM hub suppliers in build kits to some rather large shimano OEM partners like SantaCruz, Pivot, Yeti, Ibis, Niner, and who knows who else i bet they were asked to make them rather than sold the license.
All in all, we saw how well Sram/Rockshox 2 year exclusive license for DT to make their predictive streering hub for the RS1 went... by the time licensing went available to other manufacturers no one cared and the fork is barely relevant.
  • - 1
 @itssadbutdrew:

Well if you're mentioning forks... the predictive steering hub/dropout interface wasn't incompatible with other hubs, and Rockshox has added it to every other fork they offered that uses the 15x110mm boost standard. The RS1 is always going to be a TOP XC racer fork and aside from that user group, nobody really cares about them. However I can get a predictive steering dropout Reba fork for about a third the price of an RS1 for my trail bike.

For that matter, the 15mm thru-axle was originally exclusive to Fox & Shimano remember as they developed it together...and that was 11 years ago and now everyone uses it. You want early market share gotta have the new thing buyers...you gotta pay for the development of the new product. Did hope pay for shimano to develop 12 speed ? Apparently not. Maybe they can just develop their own 12 speed cassette that's compatible to shimano 12 speed shifters and derailleurs as they have done with 11 speeds already, and that ONLY works on their own proprietary freehub bodies. You know...the ones nobody is buying.
  • + 2
 @deeeight: RS forks have torque caps, but that is not the same as predictive steering. An RS1 hub isn't going to fit on my SID
  • + 1
 And very few XC racers are racing the RS1, it's dying.
  • + 14
 We’re looking at this from the wrong angle. Shimano lost a huge OEM market share to SRAM 12 speed. In order for Shimano to regain some of this market, they had to make deals with the bike manufacturers which promoted new BIKE sales. Shimano will make more sales to the OEM market than after market. Bike manufacturers dont want us to upgrade bikes, they want to sell us new ones, with shiny new awesome Shimano 12 speed drivetrains. It’s the bike manufacturers calling the shots here.
  • + 2
 This just might be it. Good point.
  • + 1
 I'm failing to understand your argument. Shimano obviously makes more money on oem sales, but how does denying Hope the license help Shimano oem sales?

Are you saying that customers will purchase a new bike to get the new Shimano components since they can't upgrade their Hope hub equipped bikes to Shimano? What customer would prioritze their shifter over their frame and fork? Lol.
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers: The majority of bike buyers are not like PinkBikers. They buy full bikes from shops/online. They don't want to or know how to upgrade their bikes.

Ask yourself, why would Shimano not grant licenses? Why do they think that's the best course of action to generate sales? it's not to sell more of their cup and cone hubs...otherwise, they's insist OEM buyers used Shimano wheelsets. This is what SRAM do, they were forcing OEMs to buy the full eagle groupsets, not mix & match components. SRAM were also forcing (or heavily "encouraging") OEMs to use Rockshox forks/shocks and droppers.

Now OEMs have an opportunity to use Shimano to negotiate a deal in their favour and to play off against SRAM.

Stop thinking like a clued up mountain biker and start thinking like a salesman/accountant for a big bike co!
  • + 1
 @Pab80: "Now OEMs have an opportunity to use Shimano to negotiate a deal in their favour and to play off against SRAM."

That makes no sense, how does Shimano denying Hope a license give oem's more negotiating power? What do you mean by "play off against Sram." ??
  • + 1
 @Pab80: SRAM is to biking like nVidia is to PC gamers.
  • + 2
 @Flowcheckers: New bike manufacturers see the upgrade market as a threat to new bike sales. If people constantly upgrade older bikes, they're not buying new ones. Bike manufacturers don't like that!

Shimano are in a weak position in the high end bike market, bike co's know this and will use it to negotiate any kind of deal they want. Including stopping aftermarket making use of the Shimano 12 speed cassette, which is cheaper and performs better (according to reviews) than SRAM.

Now bike co's have a viable 12 speed alternative to SRAM, they will use this as a negotiating tool to get a better deal from their SRAM specc'd bikes too.

It's just business. Hope will get their license in a year or two and we'll move onto moaning about a new axle standard!
  • + 13
 don't forget the new DM chainring standard they came out with. none of the 6 out there was good enough for them, apparently.
  • + 6
 Ya no sh*t. That pisses me off too. I hate that we went from one dual bolt pattern that worked for all chainrings to 6 DM interfaces and at least 4 different bolt patterns now.
  • + 7
 You're talking about SRAM, right? Or is your memory crap as well? The only reason SRAM made direct mount rings so early was because their early carbon cranks used the same interface for their spiders. Shimano had a removable spider system years before them, but it never would have worked with 24mm spindles. Hence the new system. Honestly, the Shimano style is much more sound mechanically, as the forces are well distributed over many splines vs few for SRAM.

Please reference "Appeal to Tradition", and you'll see why many arguments and complaints in here are so flawed.

If you want better things, you'll have to accept that they'll likely be different.
  • + 1
 @preston67: Yeah Shimano had the best cranks before and now I want nothing to do with them. But SRAM cranks are even worse.
  • + 1
 @seitenryu: CINCH spline works pretty well. they should all just use that. that's not an appeal to tradition and im not a luddite.
  • + 8
 Looks like an ultimately misguided effort to win more OE wheel business, Shimano wheels have always been an expensive choice at OE. With out a 50 dollar wheeset to put on entry level SLX bikes it was destined to fail and cost them drive chain spec as well.
  • + 8
 How quickly the Pinkbike audience FORGETS that when SRAM introduced 11 speeds with the XD freehub body design it too was ONLY exclusively licensed to DT originally. Also while SRAM has since opened the freehub body design interface license to all (just as shimano did with HG splined freehubs decades ago) they have NOT licensed any other manufacturers to produce XD compatible cassettes (and just as Shimano didn't ever do for the patented Hyperglide ramping on cassette cogs), thus all those aftermarket XD compatible hubs are still reliant on SRAM for the cassette assemblies. Microshift and Sunrace who are both big in the OEM side of the marketplace offer 11 and 12 speed drivetrains as well, but both rely on cassettes which are compatible with the shimano HG freehub spline pattern and thus are limited to 11T as the smallest cog size also.

This is the same pinkbike audience who denied any advantages to 29ers and 27.5 and swore blind they'd never stop riding on 26ers and none of their heroes like gwinn would ever be caught dead on such wheels...
  • + 0
 I admit I don't know a lot about the history but my view on SRAM XD is that they were first with 1x11 so it was pioneering and an exclusive period is the norm. With Shimano we have been patient and stuck with them with 10 (on Hope hubs) and then 11 when SRAM were ahead and Shimano are playing catch-up. Now I'm been told I can't go 12 on Hope. If Shimano were pioneering that'd be ok but I stick with them and do like them. I am not one to have any massive affinity with a company, it's just business, so I don't and won't be dramatic and ditch Shimano, as they won't care. I will however stick with Hope and go SRAM Eagle
  • + 2
 I will stick with Shimano for their Saint Cranked and keep XT brakes on some bikes. But, the cassette will be SRAM.
  • + 2
 @mccarthyp: yeah being a first mover is the most expensive and risky. Its smart business to try and recoup some of that in the short term to fund the next thing.
  • + 2
 @deeeight This is simply incorrect. SRAM announced XD/1x11 in summer of 2012. Here's a great article also from 2012 that explains who was making XD driver bodies and their stance on it. bikerumor.com/2012/12/27/manufacturer-round-up-whos-making-xx1-freehub-bodies

Article explains it was a collaboration between DT Swiss and SRAM engineers, but all other manufacturers were brought in as right away.

When BikeRumor asked wheel manufacturers whether they had an XD driver body already available in 2012. "Hope: Yes. It’s already available." "I9: We have been shipping our XX1 freehubs since early October (2012) and currently have them in stock."

"SRAM offered great support for the design process by providing detailed prints and specs on the design," - Industry 9
  • + 1
 E13's cassette uses the XD freehub
  • + 1
 @northofvan:

Bzzzt wrong, but thanks for playing. The official launch was in July 2012 and only DT was listed as a licensee at the time. Mavic became one in august. Others followed suit but NONE of them were allowed initially to produce complete rear hubs for aftermarket sales (other than DT), only freehub bodies to retrofit existing hubs and to be sold as OEM for wheelsets for bike manufacturers. If you wanted a Hope rear hub with the XD driver in Dec 2012 you had to buy a complete rear hub, and then buy an extra XD driver body, and swap the freehub bodies. I've read the license agreement SRAM offers for the XD driver patent. THEY have to approve the licensee. There's zero royalties attached but if they don't agree to give a license, youj cannot just produce the XD driver bodies. Its NOT an open source product like ISIS splines were free to anyone to use without needing a license.. Its a patented design and you have to apply for a license.
  • + 6
 Shimano, in essence you have run out of good will from the people who want to buy your product. Listen to your customer or stick to fishing equipment. We want to love you, stop fucking with us!
  • + 5
 The regular Shimano cassette interface is so popular because everyone can use it. Limiting this on their new spline could affect its integration. Would the 12sp Shimano mech work with a SRAM cassette? Then chances are fair that people would just use the SRAM XD driver and third party manufacturers will create their own XD compatible 10-51 cassette to still get you that range.

Personally I don't care much. I am already destroying my 11t and 13t rings of my 10sp cassette way too quickly (and I can't mount a bigger ring up front) so going down to 10t with even narrower 12sp rings doesn't sound like a good idea for me anyway. So this comment was just for the sake of Shimano business. License the interface to all hub and cassette makers or you'll see the same happen as when they tried to push rapid rise and everyone fled to the regular SRAM triggers and rear mechs.
  • + 4
 I'm running a sram chain/cassette with an XTR shifter/derailleur and it's working great so far. Onyx hubs
  • + 2
 @probikesupply: Yeah, is that 12sp? I used to ride 9sp with all kinds of combinations of SRAM, Shimano, KMC etc. I currently stick with the Shimano XT cassette for my Zee rear mech (with KMC e-bike chain) because I like how tyou can replace individual rings or two ring clusters of the XT cassette. And the KMC e-bike chain because it is supposed to stretch less so everything will last longer. But yeah, if you're actually on 12sp that will give people some alternatives (and Shimano some headaches).
  • + 6
 I really like Shimano parts, I use quite a lot of them. But they make it really hard to want to continue using them. It's almost like they want you to buy SRAM! Truly baffling.
  • + 6
 "Shimano had been using the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting, but that did not allow for cassette cogs smaller than 12 teeth"

Think you mean 11 teeth
  • + 2
 First one was 12 mini.
Then they cut the tip of the splines and it was 11 (since 8 or 9 speed I can't tell which one)
So it's not se same freehub body since the beggining either.
  • + 1
 HG-C bodies/small cogs/lockrings were a slightly later development, I believe, so this sentence can be read as truthy.
  • + 1
 @jlawie, yep, you're right - that's been changed.
  • + 1
 @faul:

Very first cassette freehub standard from shimano was uniglide standard when things were six speed. The main cassette assembly of cogs slid onto the splines and the final cogs threaded on (no lockring). Hyperglide changed to all cogs sliding onto splines and using a lockring. The move from uniglide to hyperglide happened when bikes went to 7 speed cassettes. That's why a lot of shimano 6 & 7 speed HG hubs from the early 90s had threaded splines on the outside still, so as to be backwards compatible with UG cassettes. Hyperglide compact was when they copied Suntour's microdrive concept by offering an 11T cog compatible freehub body (the ones with the clipped off splines at the end). Another difference between UG and HG is the one WIDE and one NARROW splined section, which was done so the cogs always slid onto the freehub in the correct orientation for the HG ramps to work properly. HG cassettes for that reason were not backwards compatible with UG freehub bodies.
  • + 1
 @deeeight: Thanks
I'm born in the 7 speed era so I didn't know what existed before (my first real bike was already 9sp)
  • + 3
 @mikekazimer: one suggestion to PB, here in Brazil we have a MTB website that use a X error button in the bottom so a person can point any mistake on text or picture without using the comments. Maybe is a good idea to PB.
  • + 3
 Solution: don't buy shimano cassettes. I'm a shimano fan and don't use hope hubs anymore, but I am a fan of their adaptability. I'll be sure to purchase SRAM cassettes until shimano opens up the licensing of their micro spline driver.
  • + 7
 Dear Hope - just start making shifters and derailleurs already.
  • + 0
 Soft as shit and hugely expensive ones? No ta.
  • + 2
 @davechopoptions: please explain how a shifter/derailleur can be "soft"?
  • + 5
 @davechopoptions: shifter and derailleur on par with their brakes would be pretty great imho.
  • - 1
 @privateer-wbc: The alloys they use is soft as shit. But look - colours!
  • + 2
 @davechopoptions: are you referring to their freehub body? If so, it's no worse than DT Swiss. No issues with the function of their brakes, cockpit components, or even hub shells in my experience due to so called soft alloy. If they did use this so called soft alloy you speak of, and it was really sub-par alloy or was not properly leat treated, or both, you would likely see a lot more hub failures, where the drive ring strips out the inside of the hubshell, like the cheap Koozer hubs coming out of Asia for under $100, or cracked and distorted hub flanges - but those problems don't really happen much at all with hope. Personally haven't seen either, even when we build them for guys in the 250-275lb range.
  • + 0
 @privateer-wbc: all their parts. I’ve seen more flange failures on Hopes than all other brands combined. I worked in busy shops for 16 yrs and saw too many failures to have confidence in them. Their brake callipers are the only ones I’ve ever seen to visibly flex under brake application. Their cranks are an abomination.
Their good warranty back-up must be due to lots of practice.
Something actually complicated like mechs and shifters would be a nightmare.
  • + 7
 Is the big S slowly becoming one of the other big Sses?
  • + 5
 I wonder if it anything to do with Hope producing their own cassettes?

I wonder how long it will be until Hope release a 12 speed cassette.
  • + 3
 Yeah hard to understand their strategy here. Disappointing for sure. You dont' propagate a new standard by limiting licensing. I'm so curious what the real issue is - Have the bean counters determined its more profitable long term this way ? Do they maybe think the boutique guys won't make things properly ? I'm kind of a DT Swiss guy so I'm good but the new XTR is so nice I want everyone to experience it.
  • + 3
 Why is this such a big deal? Just use an Eagle cassette with the new XTR drive train and boom...Robert's your mother's brother. People have been doing that for yrs with Shimano, why any different now? I saw another guy mix in an XTR derailleur into his full Eagle system and it apparently worked perfectly.
  • + 3
 Yes that does work but it doesn't have the buttery up and down smoothness of using the Shimano cassette.
  • + 2
 @preston67: Have you tried the Sram cassette with XTR? I haven't but is the cassette that different?? Genuinly curious if you've had real time on it. It def doesn't effect it in 11sp stuff but this is different
  • + 1
 @Svinyard: @preston67: I would be very interested in real-world feedback as well. It stands to reason that the big improvement in shifting performance from the Hyperglide+ comes from the ramped cassette. It seems you would lose some to a lot of that advantage with a SRAM cassette, although it would likely work.

The other benefit is not having to pay through the nose for a SRAM cassette. They may be lighter and theoretically more durable, but at 3x the cost, some people see it as getting the razor for free and charging an arm and a leg for the blades...
  • + 1
 @Climbtech: Gotcha. yeah that makes sense. A SRAM GX 12 cassette isn't much more than an XT and is a bit lighter. With a promo code its pretty close. I prob wouldn't run that if I was going new but its interesting option rather than full on new wheel.
  • + 2
 So just Incase anyone is wondering, at the shop we tried running a newly XTR 12spd equipped bike with an NX and a GX Eagle cassette and they work just fine. Not quite as smooth on the upshift as there’s no Hyperglide+ but it works just fine.
  • + 2
 I cannot even FATHOM why Shimano is doing this... they NEED this standard to be adopted and used by as many companies as possible so that as many riders adopt it as possible! This should have been an open-source standard from DAY 1. It's totally stupid and short sighted of them to hold this back. I'm impressed with everyone else's creative work-arounds though.
  • + 2
 Just use the Sram Eagle Cassette and the rest Shimano. You get the best of both worlds. The Shimano cassette has the three top rings with aluminum vs Sram only the 50T...more wear on Shimano... This hybrid set up has been done and seams to work great...
  • + 1
 A huge part of Shimano's great shifting is the cassette.
  • + 1
 @markinator: marketing is saying this, but something tells me that isn't entirely a huge deal
  • + 1
 I could do but I don't want or need the dinner plate cassette (I want the 45t 12 speed cassette). Also the XT cassette is much cheaper. Hence the wait.
  • + 2
 Solutions:
1: Get license from white or onyx, spec it as fitting shimano 12 speed no mention of microspline.

2: manufacturers max cassettes that mount to xd and would with 12spd (looking at you e13 and sunrace)

3: continue rebuking shimano
  • + 2
 Man I love my I9 Hydras with the Shimano 12 speed, so precise and flawless. 2 months and running with out any issues. Nice work on the 12 speed Shimano, considerable better than Sram as far as smoothness and shifting under load, and quiteness.
  • + 2
 Love love the brakes. Not the hubs though. I'm DT Swiss in that respect. My XTR group, with the microspline freehub is for sale as I went back to Sram because its wireless. Not a dentist, just like spending money on my bikes.
  • + 12
 Do you have any openings for a deep cleaning next week?
  • + 4
 @jorgeposada: You're not fooling anyone. We all know you don't go to the dentist.
  • + 10
 @jorgeposada: we're British, we dont have dentists. Not kidding either
  • + 2
 @Session603: yeah no shit genius. If i went to the dentist I couldn’t afford bike parts
  • + 1
 @timbud: I wasn't talking to you. You'll notice that there's a name in front of my comment that isn't yours, genius.
  • + 1
 Hahahaha I'll fix your bikes if you fix my teeth. Who can afford a dentist?
  • + 2
 Someone tell me why an I9 hub is better than an XT rear hub? Really? What are the user benefits?
50g less? - Pfff..
More zingy and louder? - Please.
Cartridge bearings? - Meh I have no issues with cup and cone.
More points of engagement? - Unless a trial rider who cares? 10degrees is plenty

Your all being fleeced buying these $500 hubs.
  • + 2
 But they make my pee pee bigger!
  • + 2
 They come in pretty colors.
  • + 5
 I think that cup and cone hubs can be fine, if you maintain them religiously and never have them come loose even a little while on a ride.

I have worked on so many cup and cone hubs where the customer would come in for a tune up or a wheel true and then you get to have the discussion about how they actually need to replace the hub. That means a wheel build as well and the bill will need to be $200 instead of $25 and will take 2 days instead of 2 hours...Or they can ride with a crunchy hub untill it totally eats itself.

Cup and cone hubs are fine though.
  • + 2
 I really want the 10*45 cassette and I like the XT price point. It means I can run a 32t or 34t at the front, have a higher top end and make it a little easier to get up those hills. I don't need a massive cassette for where I live and if I do venture away from home it's usually to Aston Hill so I'll wait for Hope to get their license. Regardless of that this feels like poor behaviour from Shimano who appear to be waving their sword around because they can.
  • + 2
 To me it seems Shimano are just trying to protect the integrity of their new groupset by ensuring that any uptakers will use the full setup, cassette, chain and derailleur together to get the performance Shimano have intended.

It doesn't look like Shimano are licensing Micro Spline to any companies that produce their own cassettes, expander rings etc which have been responsible for so many hybrid Shimano setups in recent years [myself included] while Shimano caught up to trends. Now that they have caught up, it appears they want everyone to be 'all or nothing' with their new 12 speed, avoiding hybrid specs like YT with their E-13 cassettes etc.

Once Shimano have preserved/enforced the reputation of their new 12 speed groupsets they will no doubt allow other hub manufacturers to come on board, but for now it looks as though they're trying to carefully control the output of their product, ensuring full parity with OEM spec bikes and not allowing other manufacturers to start pushing their own 'upgrade' cassettes into the works and potentially negatively impacting the intended performance and ergo Shimano's product reputation.
  • + 2
 I love Shimano drivetrains and have run them for 20+ years, but all this proprietary nonsense made me drop my money on Eagle instead.

I think Shimano need to Remember how they got where they are. Lets not forget, back in the 80's we had Shimano, Campag and Suntour. That was it. They were by far IMHO the best. But now? They better play game or they will be played.
  • + 6
 But now..?

now we have SRAM, Shimano....... uhh.... Box? ....e-13??

yeah.. they have NO IDEA what they're doing..
  • + 4
 Ummmm, SRAM 's XD driver was proprietary also when it was introduced with only DT being licensed to use it originally. It only LATER became open source when SRAM decided it was time to do so and once it was clear that enough customers would be reliant on them for cassettes. Also its only the XD driver freehub designs which were released, SRAM hasn't allowed others to offer XD compatible cassettes. Sunrace and Microshift 11 and 12 speed cassettes only function with Shimano HG compatible freehub bodies.
  • + 6
 they made their last "proprietary nonsense", the freehub that's on 95% of bikes today, last like 30 years. i think if anyone gets to make a new freehub standard, it's shimano.
  • + 1
 @deeeight: i saw some article showcasing sunrace cassettes that had a weird attachment mechanism that allowed the cassette to attach to an xd freehub, presumably getting around the restrictions. pretty cool. i was thinking of buying an XD driver and trying one out, but now that 12 speed shimano is out, i'll probably just do that once my current drivetrain wears out

edit: here we are: bikerumor.com/2018/11/06/sunrace-adds-affordable-lightweight-10-52-cassettes-complete-1x12-groups
  • + 1
 Another cool move shimano made recently: Their new 4 piston xt calipers they used a different length banjo bolt (the bolt that mounts the hydraulic line to the caliper) than the 2 piston calipers. If you bought a 4 piston caliper on it's own, it did not come with the bolt. The only people I can imagine buying just the 4 piston caliper is someone who would be upgrading from a 2 piston caliper. I imagine a lot of people started replacing their caliper like I did then figuring this out the hard way!
  • + 3
 Running Eagle cassette and XTR shift now with zero issues. No reason to switch anyway. SRAM light and more durable there anyway.
  • + 1
 Instead of B!tching about it, Hope should put all their clever engineers to work to design something not restricted by Shimano's patents to run 12 speed cassettes. If White industries could get passed it, Im sure theres other ways?
  • + 1
 Hah. If Hope had muttered anything during the wide/narrow issues and lawsuits thrown around by SRAM i would treat this with some seriousness. As it is, they´re simply doing SRAM´s dirty work by calling at Shimano on this, and hoping SRAM forget about them infringing on a copyright. Probably agreed a deal under the counter.
  • + 1
 Hope, just make micro-spline stuff anyway, then just machine away a single spline som you have one less. The rest of the splines will be more than strong enough. I believe White Industries have taken a similar approach to get round the patent.
  • + 1
 Hope can do their own spline pattern that is open in spaces that shim is closed. the could do a three spline so long as the micro spline fit in it, it would work.
let some after market company come up with a "spline buster" like the boostinator.

proparitar bs needs to fail!
  • + 1
 Stupid question time! I'm no bike mechanic but I love to ride bikes. I have DTswiss M1700's on my bike with SLX 11sp. If I buy a new bike with 12sp and want to bring my wheelset over onto the new bike what do I need to buy to do this and how much will it cost approx.? Thanks guys
  • + 1
 Get a Sunrace 12sp cassette that's 11-50 it whatever it is or Sram NX eagle (heavy) 11-50 and everything else can be new XTR/XT 12sp. Done.
  • + 1
 if your rear hub is a star ratchet freehub (you can confirm by googling your wheelset), then you just need a micro spline freehub to replace the current one
  • + 1
 @xeren: Perfect thanks. Yes it's the DT350 star ratchet.
  • + 1
 I always try to buy from brick and mortar shops and the lack of support and protection from Shimano on their products with local shops who are certified re-sellers is a total joke! I can understand why almost all of the local shops are anti Shimano now days. I have been long time XT guy but this is icing on the cake and all the more reason to get that shiny new eagle all over my rides. Bye -Shimano!
  • + 1
 Do you guys think the Shimano patent application that covers the Micospline freehub will be granted?
patents.google.com/patent/US20180346064A1

Seems crazy that Shimano can claim any freehub design that has at least 10 splines! If it is granted, white industries might still be in trouble.

I think the patent application is bogus but every brand can't afford a legal battle.
  • + 1
 Shimano clearly wants to win the OEM spec war with the new SLX/XT/XTR to go up against the NX/GX/XX1 OEM spec domination for the last couple of years.

And Shimano is doing the old Coca-Cola approach..."If you want to sell Coke...you must stock all my other lines in your fridge..." Hence the licencing of MicroSpline supposedly only to OEM hub/wheel suppliers. They want total domination on a bike...drivetrain, wheels, brakes, etc...they want to shut SRAM completely out of a build spec...

So...Shimano appears to ONLY be going after OEM new-builds with these kits. They clearly are not going after the AfterMarket upgrader (like me). They don't care if I upgrade my XTR9000 to XTR9100. They want me to get XTR9100 through buying an all-new bike only. Because it makes absolutely no sense for me to upgrade to XTR9100 if it involves a new (non-matching) rear hub, and building up that rear wheel.

My guess is...Shimano's strategy for AfterMarket probably is probably only kicking in after they saturate the OEM market.
  • + 1
 I can't remember seeing any medium-high end completes with Shimano wheels in a long ass time. If they can manage to get bike makers to spec complete groups and wheels, all withholding licenses will have been worth it for them.
  • + 5
 Or you just don't care about 12 sp and live happy, easy, life.
  • + 1
 Coming back to the topic. If you make a cassette to compete with them no license seems to be the line. They must have saw a dent in cassette sales. With a lot of brands making aftermarket cassettes.... I see their plan.
  • + 1
 This tight embargo is Shimano trying to get micro spline onto as many new year bikes as possible, so it will become an adopted standard (or forced standard) being embraced heavily by the OEMs helping bike manufacturers with availability.

Give it time and restrictions will loosen. I also would also not be surprised seeing Chinese companies not adhering to this...(i.e. the many brands Joytech manufacturers for).
  • + 4
 I'm just mad because there's something new and it's not exactly how I imagined it would be.
  • + 4
 I like hope hubs more than Shimano cassettes so I guess I'm going with sram next lol
  • + 1
 Why not stick with 11 speed and try a hope cassette.
  • + 2
 @privateer-wbc: You need a hope freehub for hope cassettes as far as I know.
  • + 1
 @nowherenear: you can get both together in a kit.
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: because I don't want to drop $300 on a cassette
  • + 1
 @nfontanella: but you'll convert your whole drive terrain to SRAM 12 speed and buy a (more expensive) SRAM cassette?!

The hope is nice because it's a light as srams top end cassettes, closer to GX pricing, and you can keep your Shimano or SRAM 11 speed gear.
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: I meant more like next time I build up a new bike, I'm still happy with my 10 speed wide range currently
  • + 2
 @nfontanella: ah, well yes, makes sense then Smile
  • + 1
 F*ck Shimano for this! I wanted to try this new stuff, but if I need to rebuild all my wheels, with either really expensive or just flat out worse hubs than I have currently, then they can go violate their own collective a*shole with a splintered broom handle.
  • + 2
 Well, nobody will buy Shimano's fancy new 12 speed group... But folks, you don't need to. The 10 speed XT is just fine and miles cheaper.

Take the Mrs out for dinner with the money you saved ;-)
  • + 1
 Shimano really dropped the ball on this. What a shame! Why can’t Hope just manufacture a freehub body like White Industries? All they need to do is have 13, 14 or 15 splines to not interfere with either Shimano or White Industries?
  • + 1
 On the other side, hope is one of the few companies that has the capabilites to design and produce an own 12-speed cassette within next to no time - probably that's the way to go for hope? They already got 11-speed cassets and their own freehub standard..
  • + 4
 speaking as a shimano fan-c'mon man! get it together. at least i'm on I9 wheels...
  • + 1
 Yep, Shimano's new 12 speed group won't get my business until microspline is supported by all major hub manufacturers, especially Hope (since that's my go to). Such a dumb move on Shimano's part not actively pursuing Hope to make these instead of the other way around.
  • + 1
 The older riders may remember how Sram became bigger: Shimano only sold their brakes combined with the shifters. So if a manufacturer wanted to fit non shimano brakes they had to fit sram shifters. The rest is history.

I like Shimano brakes, shifting is a Sram affair on all my bikes. I don‘t miss Shimano in the shifting department.
  • + 4
 If you run more than 11 gears you're a industry butt fucker anyway.
  • + 4
 Pick a freehub body and be a dick about it?
  • + 2
 Wait your turn Hope. Quit cryin'. You sound like a bunch of forum babies.

How long did SRAM hoard the XD driver for before allowing anyone to use/make it?
  • + 3
 I wonder how different this comment thread would have been if the name in the title was SRAM instead of Shimano!?!?!
  • + 4
 Nothing needed to progress past 1x10.
  • + 3
 Shimano see Hope as a competitior now they make casettes. Simple reason really.
  • + 2
 Exactly. Same reason that Sunrace and Microshift haven't been announced as licensees as the two dominate large chunks of the OEM market at the lower to mid price range bike levels. Neither has Novatec which again produces far more hubs for OEM sales than does I9, DT, Mavic and all the others granted microspline licenses...combined.
  • + 2
 Less gearz plez
Also
What ever happened to Hope's one piece cassette/freehub design?

The brands and bike industry is moving towards proprietary systems and it f*cking sucks
  • + 1
 Please stop whining about proprietary things. The Shimano HG freehub was that way for a long time, but you wouldn't mention that now. SRAM uses a proprietary freehub that is now open license, so I don't get the distinction. The Hope system would be about as proprietary as one can get. It seems you just like Hope's products, which is fine, but don't spin this like some altruistic preference. It doesn't suck, you just fear change. Or at least some of them. You can ride whatever you want.
  • + 1
 @seitenryu: lol, I think you're reading more into comment than I meant. There's no whining no fear of change, I just like good well made stuff that works, is compatible an doesn't need upgrading every few months
  • + 2
 @seitenryu:

EXACTLY....For its first TWO YEARS the XD Driver was exclusive to SRAM...and oh yeah... DT. And no doubt Shimano and DT had a similar arrangement for the first year. But now that shimano is trickling 12 speeds down to XT and SLX already for next year, they need to license it out to other hub manufacturers for OEM sales only. However for aftermarket hub sales... its still just shimano and DT. I9 cannot offer complete micro spline rear hubs to aftermarket customers (they can offer replacement freehub bodies though to existing hub owners).

There was a time that shimano wouldn't even sell their freehub bodies to aftermarket hub makers as a drop in assembly (as they also had a patent on the hollow 12mm diameter bolt inside the hub shell that joins the two together) and other companies like Nukeproof had to buy shimano hubs and then dismantle them to adapt their freehubs one at a time to their hub shells. That's why so many aftermarket hub makers in the 1990s also had cartridge bearings and oversized axles and often their own freehub mechanisms. They were getting around the shimano patents. They could produce the HG spline pattern and thus be shimano cassette compatible, but they couldn't source actual shimano freehubs.
  • + 3
 @deeeight This is simply incorrect. SRAM announced XD/1x11 in summer of 2012. Here's a great article also from 2012 that explains who was making XD driver bodies and their stance on it.(bikerumor.com/2012/12/27/manufacturer-round-up-whos-making-xx1-freehub-bodies)

Article explains it was a collaboration between DT Swiss and SRAM engineers, but all other manufacturers were brought in as right away.

When BikeRumor asked wheel manufacturers whether they had an XD driver body already available in 2012. "Hope: Yes. It’s already available." "I9: We have been shipping our XX1 freehubs since early October (2012) and currently have them in stock."

"SRAM offered great support for the design process by providing detailed prints and specs on the design," - Industry 9
  • + 4
 Can you tell us more about that White Industries one?
  • + 4
 I HOPE they find a solution.
  • + 5
 Yeah Shimano are being a bit splineless at the moment HOPE they grow a backbone....
  • + 9
 Thus far, its just been Sylence from Shimano on the issue.
  • - 1
 How about they stop whining and offer a 12 speed cassette that's proprietary to their freehub bodies...you know like they already did with 11 speeds....and which not even that many Hope hub owners are buying (because the cassettes are RIDICULOUSLY expensive).
  • + 1
 @deeeight: I don't know how to tell you this, but none of what you just wrote was a hub related pun.
  • + 1
 "They stated that they would only offer it to OEM hub manufacturers and the hubs must be branded with the bike manufacturers name."

Ummm
Doesn't hope make bikes that say hope in them?
  • + 1
 SRAM did as much with Shimano and now you need a hub with two drivers. Up until today Shimano drivetrains worked with everybody's wheel. Please do as much with the new driver. My blood runs blue.
  • + 3
 Why can't Hope just design an XTR compatible cassette that still interfaces with an XD driver?
  • + 3
 Because the owners of Hope already took a bath developing their own 11 speed wide range cassettes that are ONLY compatible with one of their own freehub bodies (which isn't then cross-compatible with either shimano or sram cassettes), and which very few people have actually bought into. They could have simply NOT gone that route at all and waited until SRAM opened up the XD driver patent license to other hub makers (it was originally exclusive to SRAM and DT for the first 2 years) but they decided to complain about that also and insisted on producing their own cassettes and freehub instead. Now shimano has come along with a new patented standard and isn't just giving it away for free yet to other hub makers and Hope is whining again.
  • + 2
 Been a big Shimano fan for years, but starting the migration to SRAM lately. Still digging the Shimano bass fishing stuff though.
  • + 1
 GLoomis Asquith fly rod is insanely nice in a 5wt too. All Japanese made. It's like 1100$ tho...and has a terrible name lol.
  • + 0
 Compare an XD driver with microspline. XD driver has short splines, external threads, and multiple steps in the geometry. And it fits a 10t. Where shimano microspline is just simple splines, and it fits a 10t. Shimano may be late to the 10t party, but to me it looks like they have a better, simpler, and cheaper design. Never bet against shimano!
  • + 1
 I forgot there were other hubs besides Industry nine... all good here with my xtr 12 on hydras. Now if shimano could make some cranks for individual purchase please...
  • + 1
 Don't Hope make their own bikes so if the hubs OEM spec on their bike with their name on the hub, they can surely sell them as "replacements" for HB owners?
  • + 1
 I'm hoping that Hadley will manufacture a titanium 12 speed microspline hub. Until then I'm going I9 so I can switch to XT when it comes out.
  • + 2
 Shimano is the badguy here? These business decision are calculated when you run a Billion dollar business.
  • + 1
 there is far too many botouque nonsense hub companies theses days dt swiss is fine.
  • + 3
 Xtr and eagle cassette works fine.
  • + 3
 I Hope they get a licence.
  • + 3
 What's a guy even need a 10t cog for, seriously ?
  • + 1
 The industry needs it because chainline is so 2025.
  • + 1
 Well, no Hope freehub body, no 12s-Shimpanso stuff for me, and probably tenthousands of happy Hope Hub riders. Good job, Shimpanso!
  • + 2
 I love shimano, but this is fucking stupid and holding me back from giving a fuck about your 12 speed offering.
  • + 3
 This issue also didn’t stop onyx hubs from having a solution.
  • + 2
 Onyx solution was a very novel one - allow for use of a DT Swiss hub body. That said, this won't apply to the current hubs that are out there in the masses - only to the new Vesper hubs as far as I know.
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: oh, I was unaware of that.
  • + 1
 @cyrways: that is what I understand at this point. If anyone knows otherwise, please correct me Smile
  • + 1
 @privateer-wbc: sounds like a fix for the older hubs is in the worx. This comes fomr the guys at Nobl. So hopefully.
  • + 1
 @pedaler: this is great to know, thanks!! Hopefully we see something soon.
  • + 1
 why would anyone want hope hubs when even DT's entry level hubs are far superior in every way?
  • + 4
 Colors.
  • + 4
 @Chris97a:

...or because you own wheel set already and you would like to move on Shimano 12 spd and you need to buy the new free hub body only... difficult to understand?
  • + 1
 @zokinjo:
I took the point if the original post as why would you choose to build wheels with hope hubs over a DT 350. They are the same weight, price, and the DT's are at least as reliable.

My point was that the most major difference between the 2 options was hope has colors.

That said I have built wheels with black Hope hubs, they work great but I would have chosen the 350 option if the only way they came wasn't with the old 16 point star ratchet.
  • + 1
 @Chris97a: This, also the sound. I use both and both have their charm.
  • + 1
 Who provides hubs for Giant branded wheels??????

Big chunk of the market right there.
  • - 1
 Nobody else caught this

"Up until that point, Shimano had been using the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting, but that did not allow for cassette cogs smaller than 12 teeth"

11, homie, 11.....
  • - 2
 Anybody stop to think that Shimano has bigger problems to figure out with the XTR group?

On top of this, there are all kinds of details to iron out with these sorts of agreements and this takes time. Shimano isn't the type of company to accept any risk in this area because it will sully the XTR launch even further.
  • + 1
 Hi, as anyone try an eagle cassette, chain, cranks and ring with Shinamo derailleur and sifter? sounds so tempting ...
  • + 1
 I was at an enduro this weekend and spotted a few bikes near the Shimano truck (not in open sight) with XT shifter/derails and GX cassettes, so maybe they work together!
  • + 1
 Why don't hope just make a reasonably priced 12 speed cassette? No need for shimano micro spline then.
  • + 3
 1x12 is overrated.
  • + 1
 why can't business work how they want? I dont understand the complaint here..
  • + 1
 Proprietaries suck, remember the Giant Overdrive 2 heads and the previous FSR shock mounts?
  • + 2
 My singlespeed is great. Smile
  • + 2
 I "hope" Shimano changes there attitude.
  • + 1
 Ha! I speak with my wallet. All my bikes are Shimano Free. Have been for years.
  • + 1
 At least I can still fit an early 90s Pro Taper handlebar onto a current YZ-F
  • + 1
 But surely Hope are an OEM manufacturer...the HB160 and HB130 bikes? What if I want XTR on them bike's?
  • + 1
 Who needs a 12 speeds drivetrain anyway??? Less is more, more is less.
  • + 1
 It's simple. Shimano improved their hubs and wants to sell some.
  • + 0
 Much as I dislike sram .gotta give them credit if they want a piece of a pie they help make it at least.
  • + 1
 I've got hope for this.
  • + 0
 Shimano just doesn't want any dirty Brits on mircospline
  • + 1
 ????
  • - 1
 Bye bye Shimano. I always liked your stuff but if you can't play nice there are better alternatives.
  • - 2
 So many people over thinking this... Buy an XTR cassette. Buy an Industry Nine hub. Happy days!

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