Hope Questions Lack of Parity in Shimano Micro Spline Licensing
Hope has raised questions about what they see as an unfair distribution of Micro Spline licenses from Shimano in a Facebook post last week.
Micro Spline is a new driver body standard that was introduced when Shimano first unveiled its XTR 12-speed drivetrain last year. Up until that point, Shimano had been using the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting, but that did not allow for cassette cogs smaller than 11 teeth. The Micro Spline freehub design has 23 rectangular splines that allows for the use of a multi-part cassette with a 10 tooth cog, as opposed to SRAM's XD freehub design, where the cassette is threaded onto the driver body.
When it first launched, Shimano said it would only be licensing the Micro Spline standard to DT Swiss, but since then several other brands have been granted licenses. And don't forget White Industries, who decided to create their own titanium freehub with 12 splines that just-so-happens to fit a Shimano 12-speed cassette...
A Micro Spline freehub body is required to run a Shimano 10-51 tooth cassette.
White Industries' 12-spline titanium freehub design.
Hope had apparently had a fair few requests for a Micro Spline hub, and they even have the CNC programs ready to go, but without the license they can't actually sell them. In an effort to explain this to their customers, they wrote on Facebook on May 31, "We have been talking with Shimano ever since the new standard was announced. They stated that they would only offer it to OEM hub manufacturers and the hubs must be branded with the bike manufacturers name. They also said they would not release the licence to aftermarket hub manufacturers.
"Looking at the wheels and hubs listed around the XT and SLX launch it seems that they are stating different rules to each manufacturer which is disappointing for us and our loyal customers. We’ll continue to lobby Shimano for the licence and keep you informed of any developments."
We reached out to Shimano and they said, "In addition to our own XTR M9100 hubs, Deore XT M8100 hubs and wheels, and SLX M7100 hubs with a Micro Spline freehub, brands including DT Swiss, Mavic, Newmen and Industry Nine are licensed to produce their own freehub bodies with a Micro Spline structure to fit the Micro Spline cassettes. This means that these brands can offer complete Shimano-compatible 12-speed wheels. Additional hub brands using the Micro Spline freehub body will be announced in the coming season."
We also asked Shimano to clarify the conditions that must be met for a Micro Spline license to be granted, and why certain manufacturers such as Hope had not been granted a license, but they declined to offer any more comment to help demystify the situation.
We'll update you on any more news as we get it.
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That aside, could Hope easily tweak the geometry and offer a compatible-but-different interface?
Instead of lobbying on social networks they should go to Sakai and ask to talk directly with the people in charge. It sounds like they have no idea on how things work with Japanese companies. They are great people to deal with, but you need to show them respect.
So dear guys back at Hope, go to Japan with some lawyers and hire good translators, and you'll have your Microspline freehub body, but calling Shimano out like that … big mistake!
So Hope is probably pissed off, yes. They trust that bringing the current issue public will help, maybe. Hoping to leverage riders reaction, for sure. Industry negociations 2.0
Now what has really happened, what has been said, what has been tried, etc all those types of question remain pure speculation.
That said, there seems to be a rash of oversharing in the bike industry lately where consumer opinion is courted, rather than companies hammering things out behind closed doors. I agree with you that I don't like it because we may not be given all the facts. Shimano are not being bad guys for keeping their reasons private. That's entirely their right, and it's probably prudent business practice. To really hammer it home, we simply don't have all the facts.
I do hope Shimano can work something out with Hope, though.
Upsetting Shimano with a public stunt ain't a smart move from Hope. But like you said negotiations 2.0 so who knows … except it's a risky way to negotiate with Japanese
I mean, Hope is actually trying to give Shimano their money, butSshimano says no because they're actually a competitor. Similar things have happened in tech, and the shimano "side" of almost all those cases ends up being found to be anti-competitive.
"Sorry I don't see you on our list of licensees. I see DT, Hop, Industry, Mavi...dam it Barry! You left the freaking E off of Hope. Can you start using spell check please?"
Their design language was different, elegant, for sure. They paid attention to details, check. But they were not the best at fit or finish in the first steps. Early iterations of the iPhone were not so ahead in terms of fit or finish.
They're going after OEM sales, and one of the largest manufacturers of bikes, Specialized, and their Roval wheels are all on DT Swiss hubs. A quick browse around anything that's not Trek of Giant will show DT Swiss wheels on most bikes in the ranges. They're not trying to convert people over to it as an aftermarket item, they're locking people into it on an bike purchase. That being said, DT Swiss 350 and 240 hubs kind of form the bread and butter of a lot of custom wheel builders as well, they're by no means lacking in that department.
It's a deal that mutually benefits DT Swiss and Shimano when negotiating OEM sales with bicycle manufacturers; who WILL want to spec their bikes with Shimano drivetrains/brakes and will consequently bring DT Swiss wheels in to achieve that. It'll be interesting to see how it works, but you can probably rest assured that huge bite of the 2020 and 2021 range of bikes come specced with 1900 and 1700 wheelsets and SLX and XT.
No they're not
Formula makes the OE'Roval hubs. Some Roval wheelsets come with DT Swiss internals.
Who do you think makes those hub shells?
Even if you're right about the shell, it's a semantic point.
Look what happened with the 20mm/15mm axle bollocks.
Shimano should just open it up.
Hope surely sells morehubs aftermarket than a couple of those who have the licence.
They should just make their own that's almost the same.
First, even excluding Trek and Giant, DT wheels are NOT "on most bikes in the ranges." Not even close, companies spec'ing Novatec and Formula hubs are much more common.
Second, while people who buy a bike with Shimano stuff might be "locked into it", this in no way increases their oem sales. They also aren't really locked into Shimano if they buy a bike with it. You could run a SRAM shifter and derailleur on the new Shimano drivetrain.
This move has nothing to do with oem sales, it's simply about Shimano trying to control things for no reason other than to keep Hope from getting the standard, which ironically hurts Shimano's efforts to have the new standard adopted. Shimano isn't being a strategic genius in any way, they are simply control freaks.
Your poor theory is completely unfounded and makes no sense, but since it's sensational and conspiracy sounding you get positive Pinkbike props.
You say this "Your poor theory is completely unfounded and makes no sense, but since it's sensational and conspiracy sounding you get positive Pinkbike props."
Right after you pull this out of your ass "This move has nothing to do with OEM sales, it's simply about Shimano trying to control things for no reason other than to keep Hope from getting the standard..."
If you're not trolling you are an idiot. 1 simple question for you: How long did SRAM keep XD to themselves before they licensed it to everyone?
hope but I think Shimano are making a stupid/dicky move with that patent thing. If I were them I’d give it out for free. And when someone acts this way, people (like white industries) are going to fk with it.
Dunning Kruger is strong here.
You have nothing but insults and distractions, which isn't backing up your weak theory very well. Why can't you simply be content that your stupid conspiracy post got the 6 upvotes from uncritical and naive pinkbike readers?
Just read the article, it doesn't take a super sleuth to figure out.
They now have three tiers of 12sp Drivetrains and Brakes (and have broken from launch tradition and released XT and SLX simultaneously), as well as a reputable and prolific wheel brand in cahoots. If you don't think they're going to product managers and giving them a lot of really good reasons to be speccing Shimano stuff on their different tiers of upcoming bikes, and the subsequent deals from having a certain percentage of their range with Shimano gear, you've got your head in the sand.
You are a moron. That isn't an insult. It's an observation.
You are much better at hurling personal insults than backing up your weak, no fact assertions.
If I was insulting you you would know. I'm just making observations.
They're in partnership with DT Swiss (and a few others) to mutually benefit one another by supporting each other's products; and clearly a big part of that is in offering OEM deals together. DT Swiss is supporting Shimano by offering very viable wheel choices to their drivetrains, and Shimano scratches their back by incentivising DT Swiss purchases if people want to adopt their drivetrains aftermarket. You don't create a partnership like that and then allow someone to take a cut of your friends pie (not without paying at least).
At this point, if you want to go aftermarket on a Shimano 12speed setup, you're limited to wheel options that are supporting their OEM specs. Again, reinforcing the OEM focus on the sales! They're targeting product managers, not individuals. They want mass orders, across multiple price points and in large volume and they've now got a competitive module to sell. Namely; M1900's with SLX, and M1700's with XT, and 1501's or XMC 1200's with XTR would all be the natural fits to each price bracket.
It's a leverage point for getting a larger royalty from aftermarket sales who want to get on board with a Microspline option. Hope needs Shimano compatibility more than Shimano needs Hope compatibility.
Denying Hope a license in no way gives Shimano a "leverage point for getting a larger royalty from aftermarket sales who want to get on board with a Microspline option."
What leverage??? Denying Hope a license has absolutely nothing to do with Shimano's negotiating power with bike manufacturers. You're talking apples and oranges and nothing about any of it makes any sense.
Yes, it totally makes sense that Hope would give DT some exclusivity.
Instead of buying cheap Shimano parts from Europe, you'll buy them from a NA shop online. The NA distributors will make money, you'll save money from your LBS, it's a win win unlike now. Because now, the Shimano parts american people buy from Europe, they come from Shimano Europe or the grey market. And you buy them without paying any import tax. It was meant to happen!
sent from my lg v20 that still works
Sorry people, Shimano pricing is now reflecting what the product actually costs. This isn't something you can downvote away, it's just the reality of the situation.
Of course we found other ways around it (a hadley 12x165 axle worked) and we'll figure this one out too if its worthwhile.
A lot of those people will just buy hope hubs with an XD driver and use a seam cassette, or something else. Shimano will therefore lose out in the sale of cassettes, for those kind of customers. They have kind of pushed hope back to being a second tier brand too, which must hurt!
@jaame: The moulded piece of aluminium Hope machines, it comes from Italy not from the UK …And what about the bearings they use? Don't get me wrong, I like the fact they do as much as possible 'in-house' and it's also great that brits support the company by buying and using their products.
I hate semantics.
www.canecreek.com/being-frank-david-vs-goliath-vs-david
I will say I'd be skeptical that many bikes would ship with a crankset that retails for near a grand USD, but a high end does exist, and people do want them.
You say Shimano is behind on 12-speed drivetrains. I say SRAM is behind on drivetrains that just work, all the time, no matter what - and THAT'S a benchmark.
Given Sram's current domination people actually seem to forget that XX1 was a huge gamble by Sram, and was never expected to takeover the drivetrain market like it did. It was reserved for only elite/rich riders who liked the idea, and as such widespread XD driver availability wasn't a priority. When X01 and X1 hit the scene for more riders the XD driver was almost everywhere.
Microspline however is the basis for the entire performance level Shimano platform, so to only have limited freehub availabitily is a huge stuff up. Having ridden both brands over the last 10 years I prefer Sram, but I admit I like the new XT and SLX drivetrains a lot. However with microspline availability the way it currently is I wouldn't consider buying either.
Shimano's days as the benchmark are over. Sram has it's fair share of errors, but Shimano like Fox and Rockshox too *doesn't* work flawlessly all the time. I've been in the industry for the last decade and have a good idea of failure rates.
"who knows when xt / slx will ever arrive"
uh, it will be available in shops in 8 days.
And that's why Shimano is pushing OE and making Hope take a backseat is to take back marketshare in the high-end mountain bike market. The high-end mountain market is a small piece of the pie for Shimano. You don't see SRAM on entry bikes or road bikes, more money there. Were their mistakes with the roll-out, I don't even think Shimano would deny that. But the people who are hating on Shimano are really just afraid that their Eagle drivetrain just became devalued. I use eagle, I know Shimano 12 will be better. And in 1 years time SRAM will return to being a tier 2 drivetrain. Time to sell.
HG freehub came out before you were in the industry and that's the only thing that's new here. Pretty sure 12 speed hasn't failed yet and am also pretty sure they come on road bikes now too. Campy started that. People just can't get enough range these days.
www.pinkbike.com/news/SRAM-XX1-One-by-Eleven-Drivetrain-First-Look-2012.html.
And feel free to look over the release of 11 speed XX1 article and readers comments. Doesn't seem like a gamble, looks like it was well accepted as great innovation at the time and SRAM did very well because of it. Like I said, people can't get enough range in their gearing these days. It may only have 1 more tooth, but more is better.
I think they'd say, good you were smart enough to choose DT swiss over Hope, that's awesome, let's get you a freehub and slap that drivetrain right on...
You obsequious automaton.
SRAM wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Shimano.
Funny that the fanboy is now being downvoted out of existence before I even get to read his replies to my comments. LOL.
We're talking about new drivetrains and new standards, so the HG freehub is irrelevant and is the only thing *not new* here. 12 speed isn't really out yet due to so many supply issues, but the 11 speed systems have been out a while and they sure had a few problems. I'm sure there's a few people here who have had issues with XT and XTR cassettes, warped SLX and XT derailleurs, and some of the most adament Shimano supporters I know won't deny they chew through shifter cables at an absolutely alarming rate.
And because XX1 won a lot of support at release in no way means it was a sure bet, why do you think Shimano insisted on a) making 10 speed for so long, and b) insisted on making their 11 speed systems 2x and 3x compatible? 1x11 paid off for Sram, but it was never fully expected to replace their entire range.
And yes Sram is dominating the OEM market for performance bikes, ever since GX Eagle was released I can't think of any mass produced high end mountain bike brands that still use Shimano outside of niche providers who offer both. Also of course Shimano makes more revenue, they own the market for nasty OEM drivetrains for super-budget bikes, and offer fishing equipment.
And I love the irony of the Shimano fanboy calling out other fanboys. I have Ultegra on my roadbike and XTR on my mountain bike so while I prefer Sram I'm hardly a fanboy.
I never said every shop would be carrying it on their shelves. I said it would be available. if you were smart enough to order it at your shop you would have it on June 14th. or you can buy it at one of the millions of online shops out there
you're really bad at arguing. let me guess you're going to tell me there aren't actually millions of online shops only thousands of them and then feel like you "got me"
I forgot about how much the M8000 derailleurs chew up cables.
But I do like the Shimano push pull shifting configuration, it feels more precise. I might buy a Shimano 12 speed shifter and derailleur, but I won't buy their hubs or cassettes because I already have several xd compatible hubs. Once again too late to the game, Shimano.
www.shimano.com/en/ir/library/cms/contents/Summary%20of%20Financial%20Results%20FY2018-YE.pdf
Page six section four - Bicycle division 79-81%, Fishing Tackle division 18-20%, Other 0.1-0.2%.
Again I need to reiterate that Shimano's bicycle division does not include suspension, which is somewhere around 25% of SRAM's revenue. Finally, Shimano holds 71% marketshare in bike drivetrain, SRAM has 15%.
So yeah, SRAM is not even close.
SRAM's 1 to 1 shifting ratio and 1x drivetrain were the big innovations that broke Shimano's domination.
Definitely1x was a big win for SRAM, no question. But the list of things that Shimano has done to revolutionize bike drivetrains is nearly endless. At number one though is quality stuff that you can count on to work. With Shimano you don't need reviews, there is no such thing as "early adopting"...when it's available it's fully tested and will work perfectly.
Shimano isn't a big innovator, and there's nothing wrong with that.
The only thing SRAM has over Shimano is marketing.
Well the cable fraying issue is a real thing if you ride in rough terrain.
The only 2 guys in the last shop that I worked at had this issue a lot. They we're running m8000 as Shimano had given us 4 drivetrains, and a discount on wholesale prices, to try and get back in good with us after we stopped stocking their product as it was cheaper to buy it from chain reaction then it was from Shimano USA.
I did a google search just for fun and there were like three results that match what you are talking about. Maybe there was a bad day at the casting plant that produced a run of derailleurs with flashing at the lever arm cable guide. I know SRAM had exactly that happen with a pretty big run of XO derailleurs back in 2011. Could be the same thing.
I'm just pointing out that Shimano couldn't be further from "in trouble" or "slipping" or "losing". They are completely dominating, and that's not going to change in the near future.
It is a matter of opinion that the shifting is garbage.
I greatly prefer the ergonomics of the SRAM shifter and am occasionally annoyed by the double up shift feature of the Shimano shifters. I prefer the more mechanical feel of SRAM shifting over the super smooth, I wonder if it just shifted, feel of Shimano. I also thought it strange that they seemed to add a hard detent feel to the m8000 shifters that I currently own. It seemed like they were aware that feel was missing and so they tried to add it back in. Like how some cars will make engine noises come through the speakers to make you think your engine sounds cool.
I also understand that this is just my opinion and can 100% understand that others will view this differently.
Shimano bike component marketshare: 71%
SRAM bike component marketshare: 15%
Every one of my local shops has far more Shimano drivetrain on the floor than SRAM drivetrain (that's on bikes, they stock pretty much nothing in aftermarket parts from either brand). Of course that's like 3 shops within a 30 min drive because I don't live in the PNW.
You want to have an intelligent and mature discussion come with some factual data. Otherwise i'll just watch you disappear as always.
If you do an overall comparison he is likely correct. Just not in the mountain bike world outside of the entry level. Road bikes, commuter bikes and low-end bikes are totally dominated by Shimano.
rctom.hbs.org/submission/shimano-dominating-the-bicycle-components-market
www.businessinsider.com/sram-bicycle-components-company-chicago-tour-interview-2018-3
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRAM_Corporation
www.businessinsider.com/sram-bicycle-components-company-chicago-tour-interview-2018-3
And yes, 1 to 1 shift ratio back in 1995 was a big innovation that led to SRAM gaining on Shimano, whether you remember It or not. Its mentioned on their Wikipedia page and I remember how much of a improvement it was over Shimano 2 to 1 shifting.
There's not a lot of data out there on this stuff, so you have to get bits and pieces from different sources and do the math.
That's the risk of innovation...you gotta stick your neck out and hope it doesn't get cut off. You can lose big. But you can't win if you don't try.
Dual Control had no chance of catching on the way XX1, XD(I think you are just trying to say 1x drivetrain here) or boost hub spacing, because it was an awful idea.
I don't think I remember anyone really speaking out about wanting to accidently shift when they are trying to brake or accidently brake when they are trying to shift.
People were already running 1x10 and SRAM just made that system work for more people by offering a bigger range.
Hub spacing had been discussed as being to narrow since the mid ninties and so it finally happened after almost 30 years. They could have just adopted the dh width of course but I doubt many xc racers and road riders would have accepted that move.
On the other hand, dual control was simply bringing to MTB what already existed and was widely accepted (even preferred) in road biking. It was actually a much safer gamble than 1x in it's time. What no one thought of at the time though is that what was good for road was in no way guaranteed to be good for mountain.
You have to look at these things in the perspective of the time in which they came to light.
Oh and Boost is still moronic, as is DUB. Two ideas that are even more ridiculous than Dual-control.
Your first link is from 2015, so the 71% you keep quoting is likely outdated.
Second link says SRAM was UP 15%, meaning increased 15% over previous year. Not 15% total marketshare, that’s incorrect.
About 20 seconds of searching found this, which is much more relevant:
www.bicycling.co.za/bikes-gear/the-fight-for-the-crown-shimano-vs-sram
It says that SRAM and Shimano dominate the MTB and road groupsets, with Shimano having slightly more at 50%, which means SRAM would have nearly all of the other half. To say Shimano is completely dominating, and SRAM is struggling to maintain a foothold, is simply not true.
The XX1 cassette was the exact same construction technique as the X0 10 spd.
The XD driver allowed the small tooth to be as small as 9 teeth, but more relevantly allowed the biggest cog to be a 42 instead of a 47 to get the same range. Imagine if 1x11 originally came out with a 47 and how much push back there would have been.
How exactly is a hub with wider hub flanges or a particular size bb bearing "moronic".
Before boost, being a big guy that pushes pretty hard, I could not ride a 29 er rear wheel without a high end offset rim. Boost strengthened the rear wheel significantly without being as wide as a dh hub.
Shimano has 50% of the BIKE COMPONENT market. 71% of DRIVETRAINS. SRAM is at an advantage when you talk about bike components because they have offerings in several categories that Shimano does not - most significantly suspension. Despite that fact, Shimano still triples SRAMs bike component sales. So yeah, there's no twisting of numbers that gets you to any other conclusion.
SRAM has released nothing smaller than a 10t for the XD driver because 9t cassettes suck. They know that. And yes, you are absolutely right people would have been freaking out about a 47t cassette at that time...hell they freaked out about a 42t cassette. Nonetheless, now we have 50-51t cassettes.
A hub with flanges wide enough to make a difference would be great...perhaps like "Super Boost Plus"...but even that is marginal. Boost is of zero benefit - see Pinkbike's own comparison test for proof. One thing Boost does offer though is increased cost. and forced obsolescence. So the industry loves it.
Man you are bought in 100%. If the original 1x11 cassette was this awful tank of a cassette tell me how a 11spd gx cassette is lighter than a 11-42 xt cassette.
Yes they tested and decided to not make 9 tooth cassettes...true.
Super boost plus is just a DH hub with offset flanges instead of centered. It is not a new standard, and was always available. The off set from center on the drive side of a 135/142 hub is tiny, something like 11mm in some cases so adding another 3mm does do quite a bit to strengthen the rear wheel as triangulation is one of the most effective ways to do that. I don't think it is necessary of 27.5" wheels but might as well make it a standard hub size, across the board.
And stop throwing out 71%, that number is from 2015. You said there isn’t much data out there on this, but that doesn’t mean you can use data from 4 years ago and assume it is still valid today.
But I'll play along - my numbers are from 2015. Can you provide some more up to date numbers? Otherwise we'll just go with the most recent numbers available.
Besides, it doesn't change the point i was backng up.
You REALLY like Shimano. We get it.
I already did provide a more recent article from Bicycling from Oct. 2018. It claims that Shimano has 50% of groupset components, which is dominated by Shimano and SRAM. Here comes the math part.. If there are only two main players and one has 50%, then the other must have close to 50%. The reason SRAM would have slightly less than 50% is because there are other manufactures like Campagnolo that would have a small percentage.
If the point you're trying to back up is that Shimano is "completely dominating" and SRAM "are still struggling to maintain a foothold", you have yet to provide anything that actually backs that up.
Secondly, your math on the 50% claim is wrong. You don't understand the article YOU posted as reference. I didn't use that one as a reference because it's worded for noobs. Anyway, as I mentioned previously, Shimano has about 50% of the BIKE COMPONENT MARKET, and about 70% of the BIKE DRIVETRAIN MARKET. Yes that's from 2015 because those are the newest numbers available on the net. Yes they certainly have changed by now, but a couple percentage points does absolutely nothing to change my point so why are we going on about this?
I'm done bickering with you over inconsequential details. Until you can find some real numbers that are more recent than mine, this argument is a waste of everyone's time.
As for boost:
www.pinkbike.com/news/does-boost-spacing-really-make-a-stronger-wheel-1.html
No difference.
We all know who the real fanboy is. Chris and LJ may be partial to SRAM but they at least engage in intelligent debate about the merits of the brands. I appreciate that. You on the other hand know nothing but hyperbole and insults. Thats what makes you a fanboy, and it's also why you never get the hint that downvotes are supposed to give.
You know what, maybe it's an honest misunderstanding. You showed up in the middle of this thread and perhaps didn't see what my original point was. I got sucked into discussing a bunch of inconsequential details so it's easy for someone to get the impression that I was making a very different point than I actually was.
here it is, my original point, taken from my 3rd post in this thread -
"We need to keep this in perspective here people. SRAM is not "dominating" anything...they are still struggling to maintain a foothold. Shimano does 4x the business SRAM does...and Shimano doesn't even have a suspension brand. Not even close."
That's it. And it's absolutely true. That's not to say that SRAM isn't doing great for a brand that's 1/3rd as old as it's biggest competitor, and that's not to say that SRAM doesn't have some very compelling offerings. It's just to point out that this idea that SRAM is absolutely dominating and Shimano is on the verge of collapse is utterly laughable. The fact that Eagle has put them on the "front page" so-to-speak and given them a strong presence in the hyper-bike market has little bearing on the big picture. For now at least.
From the article you linked, and I had read earlier.
"Bill says that Boost is a good thing"
"Boost 148 affords a better spoke bracing angle"
The whole point of that article was that having even spoke tension is perhaps more important than given credit. I agree with that idea and that is the reason that I adopted the lacing pattern of 2x on the drive in the back and the disc side in the front, with 3x on the other 2 sides. When I was younger I would build the drive side with straight gauge and the DB spokes everywhere else(pre disc brakes).
The type of wheel in that article is basically a DH hub with more narrow flange spacing so it may work due to it being boost, definitely would fall apart if tried with a 135 hub.
There is no defending of Boost, there just isn’t. A couple of engineers have stated that like Cesar Rojo or Joe from Starling. Nearly every smaller frame maker will tell you that. It is an nothing more but lowlife profiteering creating like lots of obsolete garbage just like DUB although in defense of sram that comes from idiots who decided to bring a roadie standard to MTB where it saves 10g over 24mm axle, greatly compromising bearings on pressfit BBs of which not all are dumb. And even Hope plays that stupid game with their overcomplicated crankset. 30mm axle... fk...
Shimano gears are super reliable and the shifter is definitely better with the two way and multi release. Shimano cassettes are dinosaurs... but the SRAM cassettes are by all accounts heavy and shit at GX level, and hideously overpriced above that level.
Shimano brakes are pants, the two piston ones are anyway.
Apparently XT derailleurs chew cables (?!) but I've only heard that for the first time on this thread. I've read a hundred times that GX derailleurs shit the bed given the slightest chance.
It's swings and roundabouts for me. I absolutely would not buy GX eagle. I think XT is super reliable but also super uninspiring. I would not touch Shimano brakes again until I have been assured the bite point issue has been buried.
New 12 speed XT, yes I will absolutely give it a whirl when the time comes.
Shimano admitted themselves that 9000 xtr was wide of the mark. That doesn't mean it was shit. It just wasn't 12 speed. They also repeatedly state that in continental Europe they still sell a shit ton of 2x drivetrains. Just because people on pinkbike don't use 2x doesn't mean no one else in the world does.
The reason I like Shimano is that it works and it keeps working. It's not sexy but it is affordable and reliable. I don't mind waiting to get something that works and rightly or wrongly, my general feeling is that SRAM stuff isn't that reliable if you compare XT to GX - the level of stuff I spend my own money on.
SRAM gets a lot of OEM not because it's better, but because they offer sweet discounts for complete builds when speccing rockshox at the same time. And don't get me started on rockshox. The pricing for aftermarket is 90% of fox, but the quality is closer to 60%. The reviews might say it's closer than that but in my experience after a fork is two years old fox is just better. And rockshox rear shocks? Oh dear. And the reverb? Never had one and I never will.
I know fox is not.shimano, but I feel they occupy the same realm of substance over style. They put their money into engineering and not marketing.
I’ve got slx and xt two pots and they’re absolute garbage if you don’t do lever bleeds on them all the time. Never have to bleed my guides and I’ve totally abused them honestly they should have f*cked up by now and I’d have nobody but myself to blame.
Fox vs rockshox is a totally different thing as far as I’m concerned I’ll happily run ether. I can’t decide which is the best.
I’m quite new to sram after years of only riding shimano and I still ride both I just think sram are making much better kit right now, works better, feels nicer, lasts longer and doesn’t need constant maintenance to get it running good. There’s no reason I wouldn’t run shimano again in the future of the new stuff turns out to be better or as good at a cheaper price.
Just looking at a random 135/142 hub and it only has 19.5 mm of offset on the drive side. The scariest wheel I have built for myself was a 11spd road wheel which had 11 mm of offset on the drive side.
Every low cost 29er wheel I have ridden pre boost felt like I was rolling the tire off the rim every time I turned left hard. I always say the old 135 spacing could worked for me with a high end offset rim on a 29er and I never had a problem on 27.5 wheels.
Boosts reason for existence instead of just going to DH hub widths was because of front derailleurs, is my understanding. That reason is now pretty much gone so perhaps we will see everyone move on to 157. I would definitely give that a shot and see how that works with my size 12 feet and being a little duck footed.
If Sram and God damn Trek wanted to improve triangulation they would do what Cannondale did, offset the whole hub. Just like I wrote before. Better triangulation, much more even tension between drive and nondrive side. It is even more ironic considering that around 2007 Bontrager had asymmetrical rims...
But both Sram and Trek wanted to capitalize on pseudo improvement. They added some more points to what Boost theoretically does, like allowing for shorter chainstays, well the whole 3mm shorter.
The reality was, Trek wanted Boost because they were pushing Plus tyres, particularly 29+ tyres (that we all now know were a big miss) and they needed to offset the chainring so that chain doesn’t rub on the tyre, and as they did that, they needed to offset the cassette as well, especially since chainlines for giant spinning rear saucers sucked already.
All of what you are saying are true points. I will only add this one caveat.
If you are trying to make a given rim stiffer when building it into a wheel your biggest factor is to make the spokes shorter. That is why I adopted building all rears with 2 cross on the drive side and 3 cross on the disc side. This also evens out the tension a little.
The second biggest factor in making that given rim have more lateral stiffness is to add triangulation to the spokes. Boost did accomplish this by adding about 15% additional triangulation to the drive side.
For sure there are other ways to make the rear wheel better, like offset rear triangles, offset rims, 157 hub widths. All of these other solutions may be adopted in the future. I think boost does make an improvement especially on an entry level spec bike where there is less likelyhood of seeing offset rims, rear triangles or carbon rims. I think the adoption of dh hubs by the xc racers is unlikely for at least a little while.
But they wanted to profit with no regard to OEM clients. And anyone running Bontrager or Sram wheels becomes an OEM client rather quickly. It doesn’t even end with the rear hub. The 20mm front hub had lots of space wasted with flanges moved to the inside. Potential to bring back 20mm with upgraded wider flange spacing was there and they could have made fools out of Fox/Shimano.
Whatever, crying over spoiled milk. Cheers!
Boost chainrings were only used on boost bikes that didn't have clearance for a non boost(very uncommon), or for customers that would not listen to reason(more common) at the last shop I was at.
Makes sense that those chainrings would actually be useful on a 157 hub.
@Flowcheckers: totally Spec deserves lots of good words for keeping the 135/142 hub. They were also the ones who were sane enough to use 6speed rear. Sram made yet another DH specific groupset With that stupid cassette cluster instead of making a narrow one and a new damn hub with a new narrow freehub. That would be a genuinely DH specific drivetrain. Hope has their DH hub and it’s brilliant
1. they should be happy if their stuff is compatible with Iconic manufacturers like Hope
2. a customer who is running a Hope wheelset (propably in new condition) is surely not interested in the Investment for a completely new rear Hub-Wheelbuild and so on...just to run the Shimano System,this customer will likely stick to stuff wich fits more easily
LOL... not hardly. Far more people build aftermarket wheelsets with Novatec hubs than with Hope hubs.
OEM sales are the bread and butter of any component maker, not individual sales doing custom builds and/or upgrading existing bikes. Limiting who can produce hubs for the new standard while they increase production of the cassettes isn't going to hurt them in the slightest long term.
Shimano has NEVER given a flying f*ck about the comments of pinkbike users. They're a BILLION dollar company. Denying manyl brands licenses to their patented developments is not going to hurt their reputation in the slightest long term, nor will it hurt their cassette sales at all. XD only became popular because there was no alternative from Shimano yet. Now that there is, XD is going to fall back to second place just as SRAM has for every other area shimano produces something better in.
Reread what you wrote, you desperately and repeatedly exaggerate things flagrantly to the point of reducing your credibility. Go get a Shimano tattoo!
Aftermarket sales are a drop in the bucket right now compared to OEM sales, and that's a fact that isn't going to change just because you cannot accept it. But what the hell do I know..I've only been in the bike industry for nearly 30 years.
Also you're all conveniently ignoring the fact that shimano HAS already allowed DT to sell micro spline hubs aftermarket. and will eventually open up the license for aftermarket sales to other makers, but at the moment their deliberately making that sales corridor exclusive to the brand that helped pay for the development.
IT WASN'T ORIGINALLY a free for all...SRAM developed XD with DT, who had the original exclusive license to produce hubs using that freehub body design (other than SRAM) for aftermarket sales when the group was officially announced in July 2012 (with availability being indicated as October). A month later Mavic was listed as a licensee for OEM wheelsets. By december of 2012 other brands were indicating they were either going to be offering freehub bodies, or were testing them, or already had them in production but they were simply retrofit kits for existing hubs, or they were OEM only complete hubs/wheelsets. I've been to the official SRAM website and read the license agreement for producing XD driver hubs. While there's zero royalties required, a LICENSE has to be agreed to by SRAM before you can just start producing the hubs. Shimano is not doing anything different with Micro Spline thus far as any manufacturer (who has a license) has indicated. They're simply exercising some restraint in how quickly they license other hub makers to use the patented design. And Hope and Stan's are moaning and whining because they didn't meet with Shimano's approval.
I have only one set of Hope hubs built into a wheelset that I use and the lack of reliability in its freehub body is why I never bought anymore Hope hubs afterwards.
I'm skeptical that Hope is a pure "victim" that they paint themselves to be. They may be balking at some of the language, Shimano may be playing the bully, who knows. My point is, we don't have sufficient information to simply assume this is all on Shimano.
That said, I'm glad I'm a DT fanboy and not a Hope fanboy.
patents.google.com/patent/US20180346064A1
The patent application claims any freehub design that has at least 10 splines! If it is granted, white industries might still be in trouble.
I can't believe some of the parents that get granted.
I always liked about patenting even tooth counts on bike chainrings. Don't steal my idea.
*joked not liked
...
jeez.. PB readers are real sheep these days..
Maybe they can't produce enough cassettes for everyone (does novatech have licence?).
Maybe I'm just making things up out of my ass.
All in all, we saw how well Sram/Rockshox 2 year exclusive license for DT to make their predictive streering hub for the RS1 went... by the time licensing went available to other manufacturers no one cared and the fork is barely relevant.
Well if you're mentioning forks... the predictive steering hub/dropout interface wasn't incompatible with other hubs, and Rockshox has added it to every other fork they offered that uses the 15x110mm boost standard. The RS1 is always going to be a TOP XC racer fork and aside from that user group, nobody really cares about them. However I can get a predictive steering dropout Reba fork for about a third the price of an RS1 for my trail bike.
For that matter, the 15mm thru-axle was originally exclusive to Fox & Shimano remember as they developed it together...and that was 11 years ago and now everyone uses it. You want early market share gotta have the new thing buyers...you gotta pay for the development of the new product. Did hope pay for shimano to develop 12 speed ? Apparently not. Maybe they can just develop their own 12 speed cassette that's compatible to shimano 12 speed shifters and derailleurs as they have done with 11 speeds already, and that ONLY works on their own proprietary freehub bodies. You know...the ones nobody is buying.
Are you saying that customers will purchase a new bike to get the new Shimano components since they can't upgrade their Hope hub equipped bikes to Shimano? What customer would prioritze their shifter over their frame and fork? Lol.
Ask yourself, why would Shimano not grant licenses? Why do they think that's the best course of action to generate sales? it's not to sell more of their cup and cone hubs...otherwise, they's insist OEM buyers used Shimano wheelsets. This is what SRAM do, they were forcing OEMs to buy the full eagle groupsets, not mix & match components. SRAM were also forcing (or heavily "encouraging") OEMs to use Rockshox forks/shocks and droppers.
Now OEMs have an opportunity to use Shimano to negotiate a deal in their favour and to play off against SRAM.
Stop thinking like a clued up mountain biker and start thinking like a salesman/accountant for a big bike co!
That makes no sense, how does Shimano denying Hope a license give oem's more negotiating power? What do you mean by "play off against Sram." ??
Shimano are in a weak position in the high end bike market, bike co's know this and will use it to negotiate any kind of deal they want. Including stopping aftermarket making use of the Shimano 12 speed cassette, which is cheaper and performs better (according to reviews) than SRAM.
Now bike co's have a viable 12 speed alternative to SRAM, they will use this as a negotiating tool to get a better deal from their SRAM specc'd bikes too.
It's just business. Hope will get their license in a year or two and we'll move onto moaning about a new axle standard!
Think you mean 11 teeth
Then they cut the tip of the splines and it was 11 (since 8 or 9 speed I can't tell which one)
So it's not se same freehub body since the beggining either.
Very first cassette freehub standard from shimano was uniglide standard when things were six speed. The main cassette assembly of cogs slid onto the splines and the final cogs threaded on (no lockring). Hyperglide changed to all cogs sliding onto splines and using a lockring. The move from uniglide to hyperglide happened when bikes went to 7 speed cassettes. That's why a lot of shimano 6 & 7 speed HG hubs from the early 90s had threaded splines on the outside still, so as to be backwards compatible with UG cassettes. Hyperglide compact was when they copied Suntour's microdrive concept by offering an 11T cog compatible freehub body (the ones with the clipped off splines at the end). Another difference between UG and HG is the one WIDE and one NARROW splined section, which was done so the cogs always slid onto the freehub in the correct orientation for the HG ramps to work properly. HG cassettes for that reason were not backwards compatible with UG freehub bodies.
I'm born in the 7 speed era so I didn't know what existed before (my first real bike was already 9sp)
Please reference "Appeal to Tradition", and you'll see why many arguments and complaints in here are so flawed.
If you want better things, you'll have to accept that they'll likely be different.
This is the same pinkbike audience who denied any advantages to 29ers and 27.5 and swore blind they'd never stop riding on 26ers and none of their heroes like gwinn would ever be caught dead on such wheels...
Article explains it was a collaboration between DT Swiss and SRAM engineers, but all other manufacturers were brought in as right away.
When BikeRumor asked wheel manufacturers whether they had an XD driver body already available in 2012. "Hope: Yes. It’s already available." "I9: We have been shipping our XX1 freehubs since early October (2012) and currently have them in stock."
"SRAM offered great support for the design process by providing detailed prints and specs on the design," - Industry 9
Bzzzt wrong, but thanks for playing. The official launch was in July 2012 and only DT was listed as a licensee at the time. Mavic became one in august. Others followed suit but NONE of them were allowed initially to produce complete rear hubs for aftermarket sales (other than DT), only freehub bodies to retrofit existing hubs and to be sold as OEM for wheelsets for bike manufacturers. If you wanted a Hope rear hub with the XD driver in Dec 2012 you had to buy a complete rear hub, and then buy an extra XD driver body, and swap the freehub bodies. I've read the license agreement SRAM offers for the XD driver patent. THEY have to approve the licensee. There's zero royalties attached but if they don't agree to give a license, youj cannot just produce the XD driver bodies. Its NOT an open source product like ISIS splines were free to anyone to use without needing a license.. Its a patented design and you have to apply for a license.
Personally I don't care much. I am already destroying my 11t and 13t rings of my 10sp cassette way too quickly (and I can't mount a bigger ring up front) so going down to 10t with even narrower 12sp rings doesn't sound like a good idea for me anyway. So this comment was just for the sake of Shimano business. License the interface to all hub and cassette makers or you'll see the same happen as when they tried to push rapid rise and everyone fled to the regular SRAM triggers and rear mechs.
I wonder how long it will be until Hope release a 12 speed cassette.
The other benefit is not having to pay through the nose for a SRAM cassette. They may be lighter and theoretically more durable, but at 3x the cost, some people see it as getting the razor for free and charging an arm and a leg for the blades...
Their good warranty back-up must be due to lots of practice.
Something actually complicated like mechs and shifters would be a nightmare.
1: Get license from white or onyx, spec it as fitting shimano 12 speed no mention of microspline.
2: manufacturers max cassettes that mount to xd and would with 12spd (looking at you e13 and sunrace)
3: continue rebuking shimano
50g less? - Pfff..
More zingy and louder? - Please.
Cartridge bearings? - Meh I have no issues with cup and cone.
More points of engagement? - Unless a trial rider who cares? 10degrees is plenty
Your all being fleeced buying these $500 hubs.
I have worked on so many cup and cone hubs where the customer would come in for a tune up or a wheel true and then you get to have the discussion about how they actually need to replace the hub. That means a wheel build as well and the bill will need to be $200 instead of $25 and will take 2 days instead of 2 hours...Or they can ride with a crunchy hub untill it totally eats itself.
Cup and cone hubs are fine though.
It doesn't look like Shimano are licensing Micro Spline to any companies that produce their own cassettes, expander rings etc which have been responsible for so many hybrid Shimano setups in recent years [myself included] while Shimano caught up to trends. Now that they have caught up, it appears they want everyone to be 'all or nothing' with their new 12 speed, avoiding hybrid specs like YT with their E-13 cassettes etc.
Once Shimano have preserved/enforced the reputation of their new 12 speed groupsets they will no doubt allow other hub manufacturers to come on board, but for now it looks as though they're trying to carefully control the output of their product, ensuring full parity with OEM spec bikes and not allowing other manufacturers to start pushing their own 'upgrade' cassettes into the works and potentially negatively impacting the intended performance and ergo Shimano's product reputation.
The hope is nice because it's a light as srams top end cassettes, closer to GX pricing, and you can keep your Shimano or SRAM 11 speed gear.
I think Shimano need to Remember how they got where they are. Lets not forget, back in the 80's we had Shimano, Campag and Suntour. That was it. They were by far IMHO the best. But now? They better play game or they will be played.
now we have SRAM, Shimano....... uhh.... Box? ....e-13??
yeah.. they have NO IDEA what they're doing..
edit: here we are: bikerumor.com/2018/11/06/sunrace-adds-affordable-lightweight-10-52-cassettes-complete-1x12-groups
let some after market company come up with a "spline buster" like the boostinator.
proparitar bs needs to fail!
patents.google.com/patent/US20180346064A1
Seems crazy that Shimano can claim any freehub design that has at least 10 splines! If it is granted, white industries might still be in trouble.
I think the patent application is bogus but every brand can't afford a legal battle.
Give it time and restrictions will loosen. I also would also not be surprised seeing Chinese companies not adhering to this...(i.e. the many brands Joytech manufacturers for).
And Shimano is doing the old Coca-Cola approach..."If you want to sell Coke...you must stock all my other lines in your fridge..." Hence the licencing of MicroSpline supposedly only to OEM hub/wheel suppliers. They want total domination on a bike...drivetrain, wheels, brakes, etc...they want to shut SRAM completely out of a build spec...
So...Shimano appears to ONLY be going after OEM new-builds with these kits. They clearly are not going after the AfterMarket upgrader (like me). They don't care if I upgrade my XTR9000 to XTR9100. They want me to get XTR9100 through buying an all-new bike only. Because it makes absolutely no sense for me to upgrade to XTR9100 if it involves a new (non-matching) rear hub, and building up that rear wheel.
My guess is...Shimano's strategy for AfterMarket probably is probably only kicking in after they saturate the OEM market.
Take the Mrs out for dinner with the money you saved ;-)
I like Shimano brakes, shifting is a Sram affair on all my bikes. I don‘t miss Shimano in the shifting department.
Also
What ever happened to Hope's one piece cassette/freehub design?
The brands and bike industry is moving towards proprietary systems and it f*cking sucks
EXACTLY....For its first TWO YEARS the XD Driver was exclusive to SRAM...and oh yeah... DT. And no doubt Shimano and DT had a similar arrangement for the first year. But now that shimano is trickling 12 speeds down to XT and SLX already for next year, they need to license it out to other hub manufacturers for OEM sales only. However for aftermarket hub sales... its still just shimano and DT. I9 cannot offer complete micro spline rear hubs to aftermarket customers (they can offer replacement freehub bodies though to existing hub owners).
There was a time that shimano wouldn't even sell their freehub bodies to aftermarket hub makers as a drop in assembly (as they also had a patent on the hollow 12mm diameter bolt inside the hub shell that joins the two together) and other companies like Nukeproof had to buy shimano hubs and then dismantle them to adapt their freehubs one at a time to their hub shells. That's why so many aftermarket hub makers in the 1990s also had cartridge bearings and oversized axles and often their own freehub mechanisms. They were getting around the shimano patents. They could produce the HG spline pattern and thus be shimano cassette compatible, but they couldn't source actual shimano freehubs.
Article explains it was a collaboration between DT Swiss and SRAM engineers, but all other manufacturers were brought in as right away.
When BikeRumor asked wheel manufacturers whether they had an XD driver body already available in 2012. "Hope: Yes. It’s already available." "I9: We have been shipping our XX1 freehubs since early October (2012) and currently have them in stock."
"SRAM offered great support for the design process by providing detailed prints and specs on the design," - Industry 9
Ummm
Doesn't hope make bikes that say hope in them?
How long did SRAM hoard the XD driver for before allowing anyone to use/make it?
On top of this, there are all kinds of details to iron out with these sorts of agreements and this takes time. Shimano isn't the type of company to accept any risk in this area because it will sully the XTR launch even further.
"Up until that point, Shimano had been using the same basic freehub system since the dawn of index shifting, but that did not allow for cassette cogs smaller than 12 teeth"
11, homie, 11.....
Big chunk of the market right there.
...or because you own wheel set already and you would like to move on Shimano 12 spd and you need to buy the new free hub body only... difficult to understand?
I took the point if the original post as why would you choose to build wheels with hope hubs over a DT 350. They are the same weight, price, and the DT's are at least as reliable.
My point was that the most major difference between the 2 options was hope has colors.
That said I have built wheels with black Hope hubs, they work great but I would have chosen the 350 option if the only way they came wasn't with the old 16 point star ratchet.