Is This The World's First 'Crowd Designed' Bike?
We've all heard of crowd funding for new projects, but the concept of crowd designing is something else altogether. Rather than looking for perspective investors, German brand Alutech Cycles wanted to tap into the wants, needs and desires of prospective customers and through our friends at MTB-News and their bustling forum, that's exactly what they did...
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
The objective was to create an every-day trail bike using input obtained through MTB-News' forum and cut the development-process of a new bike into small chunks. Idea competitions would be held, and then the results would be discussed before having a public vote to decide which solution would be the one to take into prototyping and production. While the concept sounds great on paper, it wasn't without its hurdles.
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
With a thriving digital MTB community of our own here at Pinkbike (love you guys!), we can only imagine the effort involved in filtering through all the crazy suggestions hidden among the amazing ones that would ultimately be suggested. But to work around this, the team behind the ICB2.0 project put the responsibility firmly in the hands of the community at large. Using this method to develop a new bike would remove the decision making process from the product manager and place it in the hands of the end user, but doing so would add its own unique challenges into the mix...
Power to the People
The community spoke and a robust and versatile bike, which was as 'future proof' as possible, was at the top of their wish list. The decision was then quickly made to use a simple single-pivot design, and with over 100-community members using the popular kinematic software, “Linkage X3” by bikechecker.com to search for the best pivot placement, they discovered that a simple shock-extension or 'yoke' (as seen on many of the bikes from the bigger brands bikes) would be enough to give a single pivot design a suitable amount of anti-squat, a slightly progressive linkage ratio and very little pedal-kick. From here, five prototypes were built and a few lucky community members were selected for testing. Within no time they set off for a test session in Finale Ligure, Italy, before the development process continued towards serial production.
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
Everyone has an opinion when it comes to forums and the kind of individuals who while away their time within them, typing nonsense and trolling to get a rise out of other users. But we're talking about a German mountain bike forum here and while we don't want to stereotype...
And it doesn't end there, with other notable and highly qualified members of the community coming together to realize the goal of creating this special bike. From those able to utilize 3D rendering software to an engineer who saw that using angular contact bearings that can be preloaded without putting stress on the frame would be great... With the involvement of over 3,000 passionate mountain bikers, the barrage of suggestions helped deliver some ingenious ideas that made their way into production. Everything from a unique cable-routing design, which allows internal or external routing, to a machined headtube badge.
And of course there was the finish to consider as well. With a unanimous nod towards a long lasting, lightweight, timeless paint job, the crowd decided to get rid of the paint. Instead, the frame is polished, then masked, then blasted and then finally anodized in your choice of 'titanium grey', 'forest green' or 'royal blue'. And for those looking to build themselves something a little different, you can have the frame in a raw finish for an additional €100.
![Alutech geometry]()
With the ICB2.0 only just hitting the market, the success and failure of this project is yet to be determined from a commercial angle, but from a community perspective, this can only be seen as a success. With the involvement of so many individuals behind its creation, it's a superb testament as to what can be achieved with the right guidance from a bike brand looking to brake the mould and do things differently.
Indeed, Alutech Cycles deserve their fair share of the praise and it's great to see how things can be done if you think outside the box. The creation and delivery of the ICB2.0 also backs up that the mountain bike community is full of individuals with enough collective knowledge to pull something that for all intents and purpose, looks great, from the melting pot of an online forum. So, do you fancy one yourself or keen to know more about this new bike from Germany? Head on over to Alutech for the lowdown and prices.
![Alutech ICB2.0]()
Where do we go from here?
In a world where many of us feel overwhelmed by the bike industry's incessant push for marginal gains and new standards, could this be a viable solution for those willing to work with the end user hand-in-hand, to create a bike with their wants and wishes taken into consideration?
Or is this just a flash in the pan idea that really wouldn't work within the confines of the manufacturing complex of today's bike industry? Let us know thoughts in your comments below...
Alutech's ambitious project ultimately delivered a unique and truly one-of-a-kind bike, the very German sounding, ICB2.0.
The objective was to create an every-day trail bike using input obtained through MTB-News' forum and cut the development-process of a new bike into small chunks. Idea competitions would be held, and then the results would be discussed before having a public vote to decide which solution would be the one to take into prototyping and production. While the concept sounds great on paper, it wasn't without its hurdles.
 | The greatest challenge of all was to make sure that all of the individual decisions would fit together as a whole concept, which is purpose built rather than a wild mix of unrelated ideas. We didn't want the ICB2.0 to end up as the Homer-mobile of mountain bikes! - Project-manager, Stefanus Stahl |
With a thriving digital MTB community of our own here at Pinkbike (love you guys!), we can only imagine the effort involved in filtering through all the crazy suggestions hidden among the amazing ones that would ultimately be suggested. But to work around this, the team behind the ICB2.0 project put the responsibility firmly in the hands of the community at large. Using this method to develop a new bike would remove the decision making process from the product manager and place it in the hands of the end user, but doing so would add its own unique challenges into the mix...
Power to the People
The community spoke and a robust and versatile bike, which was as 'future proof' as possible, was at the top of their wish list. The decision was then quickly made to use a simple single-pivot design, and with over 100-community members using the popular kinematic software, “Linkage X3” by bikechecker.com to search for the best pivot placement, they discovered that a simple shock-extension or 'yoke' (as seen on many of the bikes from the bigger brands bikes) would be enough to give a single pivot design a suitable amount of anti-squat, a slightly progressive linkage ratio and very little pedal-kick. From here, five prototypes were built and a few lucky community members were selected for testing. Within no time they set off for a test session in Finale Ligure, Italy, before the development process continued towards serial production.
Everyone has an opinion when it comes to forums and the kind of individuals who while away their time within them, typing nonsense and trolling to get a rise out of other users. But we're talking about a German mountain bike forum here and while we don't want to stereotype...
| There was a user called Luniz who made a bold statement that given enough information on loads and design restrictions, he could make the shock extension twice as strong and even lighter. It transpired that in 'real life', he was working for the software company Altair - a world leader in optimized software. After feeding the data for the current design into his company's algorithms, he optimized the process, delivering a much stronger design, weighing 30% less than the original. - Alutech's brand manager, Sebastian Tegtmeier |
And it doesn't end there, with other notable and highly qualified members of the community coming together to realize the goal of creating this special bike. From those able to utilize 3D rendering software to an engineer who saw that using angular contact bearings that can be preloaded without putting stress on the frame would be great... With the involvement of over 3,000 passionate mountain bikers, the barrage of suggestions helped deliver some ingenious ideas that made their way into production. Everything from a unique cable-routing design, which allows internal or external routing, to a machined headtube badge.
And of course there was the finish to consider as well. With a unanimous nod towards a long lasting, lightweight, timeless paint job, the crowd decided to get rid of the paint. Instead, the frame is polished, then masked, then blasted and then finally anodized in your choice of 'titanium grey', 'forest green' or 'royal blue'. And for those looking to build themselves something a little different, you can have the frame in a raw finish for an additional €100.
How many bikes have had their angles and dimensions chosen by a panel of over 3,000 members? And with a long front center, a short rear end, an appropriately slack head angle matched with a similarly steep seat angle, not to mention that it's available in 4 sizes, with a threaded BB and no Boost... Who designed this bike again?
With the ICB2.0 only just hitting the market, the success and failure of this project is yet to be determined from a commercial angle, but from a community perspective, this can only be seen as a success. With the involvement of so many individuals behind its creation, it's a superb testament as to what can be achieved with the right guidance from a bike brand looking to brake the mould and do things differently.
Indeed, Alutech Cycles deserve their fair share of the praise and it's great to see how things can be done if you think outside the box. The creation and delivery of the ICB2.0 also backs up that the mountain bike community is full of individuals with enough collective knowledge to pull something that for all intents and purpose, looks great, from the melting pot of an online forum. So, do you fancy one yourself or keen to know more about this new bike from Germany? Head on over to Alutech for the lowdown and prices.
Where market research meets manufacturing head on... The Alutech Cycles ICB2.0 has taken flight, but could this radical departure from the traditional way of doing things herald a new possibility for brands who want to embrace their customers' wishes head on?
Where do we go from here?
In a world where many of us feel overwhelmed by the bike industry's incessant push for marginal gains and new standards, could this be a viable solution for those willing to work with the end user hand-in-hand, to create a bike with their wants and wishes taken into consideration?
Or is this just a flash in the pan idea that really wouldn't work within the confines of the manufacturing complex of today's bike industry? Let us know thoughts in your comments below...
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dissapointing
www.pinkbike.com/u/brigand/blog/pigbike-community-designed-bike-1st-part.html
www.pinkbike.com/u/brigand/blog/pigbike-community-designed-bike-2nd-part.html
This is my DJ bike at the moment. Well 135 rear and a 596mm 66rc up front
I am Seb and I am doing the product management for Alutech. I'm responsible for the ICB Project as well, so if you have any request, just send a mail here or to icb@alutech-cycles.com .
Unfortunately we don't have an english page for the ICB, so if you have any question, ask me!
Thanks for all your comments and ideas, this is what makes a community bike so special. And for sure: the bottle cage has been a long and exhausting discussion ....
Cheers and some good trail time in 2016!
Seb
crowd.bike/en/#forums
What the 'very german sounding name ICB2.0' actually means is 'internet community bike 2nd edition'.
By the way, this was the first edition:
fstatic3.mtb-news.de/f/4r/39/4r39tamk3bo3/large_ICB01Rahmen.jpg?0
Happy New Year 2 all of you!
I'm not seeing water bottle mounts.
Well, it looks pretty damn good compared to those Orange bikes!
and i assume you're digging at orange purely because of my UK flag? no need to get racial
As for ICB2.0, it looks more desirable to me than what other brands has to offer. It is also new, and with modern geometry. What more can you ask for?
You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.....
My last five bikes all had frames that retailed for $2999 or more. They were all beautiful frames too.
Thing is tho, we could probably push the price of your frame higher still...Lets offer it in 5 different "sexy" paint colours, plus a raw option and a full on TLD custom spray job. Now suddenly everyone has to hold 20 different models in stock instead of 5. This adds to the cost of each frame for the end user as shops have to lay out more cash in the first place. Now lets add a bit of pointless weight to the frame by letting some graphic designer run wild with the crayons, adding gizmos like internal routing, built in storage etc which adds nothing to the performance of the bike, but the tarts like it and we can add hefty chunks to the price tag for it...Still nowhere that £3000 number
I'm not talking about how much it costs to take a frame from raw materials to my hands. I'm talking about how much it costs in raw materials, and man hours to build a frame. As you put it, $500-600, even call it $1000, fine. My point still remains. All your talk about all the "hands" and all the people who get their cut is part of my point because it is part of the problem.
And again, the frames I am currently riding cost $2999, and $3299 respectively. That's not "my number". That's retail price.
However, the actual core of my original point was - when i'm paying $3000 for a frame, it better do EVERYTHING - hold up, perform, AND look incredible.
Geez dude, calm down.
The thing is thoI wasn't glossing over the core of your point. You suggesting a bike can't deserve a high price tag unless it looks pretty is exactly the thing I was disputing. Starting by saying that bike frames do not retail for ten times the total production costs.
All the hands the things go through is not part of the problem. It is part of what used to be a necessary chain to get a bike from the factory to your garage. The internet has now pretty much made that chain unnecessary when purchasing a new bike. As long as you know what you want. Not what you think you want after looking at some pretty pictures and reading some sales waffle, but hopefully what you actually need. And what size you want. And how to build it when it gets there. And then how to set it up. And spot that dodgy freehub seal and get it warrantied, (in the same country you bought it in hopefully). And then sort it out again in a few months when one or two other teething problems pop up. Then maintain the thing for the rest of its life. At least 30% of people on pinkbike probably are capable of all of that. So yeh, the internet has made that chain unnecessary for them. That chain isn't actually a problem for them tho, they can buy cheap bikes online. The problem is so can all the people who have no idea what they want and would quite happily buy a fatbike to ride enduro on or stick a set of Saints on 8 inch rotors on their CX bike. For these people, 90% of their buying decision is based on what they think looks the coolest. Not many internet only companies are going to point out that may be a bad idea, cos they aren't even going to have a chance to ask what you might be using their product for.
My issue with the looks thing however is also related to the cost of bikes. Personally I don't care too much what my bike looks like. I don't look at it while I'm riding it. I do sit and admire it when I'm not. I think its lovely and at least part of it is due to the way it looks. It's not an Orange, but I kinda like the way oranges look. I like the simplicity, unlike some of the weirder designs which look a bit like they melted in the powdercoating oven. But anyway, despite that, looks still don't really come very high on my list of things I care about on my bike. I know some people care about it more than I do and thats cool, but I do have an issue with the fact that often companies take advantage of that fact, to get away with producing poor products and still selling them at high prices. This doesn't really happen much with frames, but it is spreading fast through cycling as a whole, helped massively by direct internet sales. For example there are plenty of extremely pretty pedals out there with reasonably high price tags that I would avoid. If a thing is well designed and well made, it will normally be obvious to the eye when inspected up close. Well made things look prettier in the flesh than in photos. Poorly made pretty stuff tends to look prettier in photos than in real life. The problem arises when something ends up being pretty not because it was made well, but simply because "looking pretty" was top of the list for the designers, followed by a few blingy features they can use as selling points and finally bearing tolerances. The constant demand for pretty bikes will lead to lots of pretty bikes being made, and it suddenly becoming much harder for the people who actually give a crap about alignment and accuracy of manufacture to make a living. So their prices go up. And of course then the guys who only really care about selling a lot of pretty bikes can push their prices up a little too. And even fix a few of the more troublesome tolerance issues they had been having. But as soon as the guys who are trying to make the actual high performance products give up and go back to plumbing, the standards on the pretty stuff will soon drop again. The price won't tho.
The bike is build and designed under a lot of input from the Internet Bike Community. But the last word regarding the technical details and the perfection were made by a guy called Stefan Stark. Stefan has an engineer degree and he IS a bike engineer. He is working for different brands and is well known in the german bike branch. Another point of view is that there are people, e.g. Stefanus Stahl, Sebastian Tegtmeier etc. putting their privat money into that project. So believe it or not, they know what they are doing. And they believe in the project. Maybe we see a 29" version in the future, maybe they think about carbon and maybe boost is a future as well.
Besides they all are mountainbikers as well
So please go on and hate, all you fanboys out there. And pretend it cannot work. As long as no one else is able to work out such a good thing in a community, I recommend to wait for pinkbike testing the bike, come to germany and test it on your own ( yes you can test the bike just by give one of the responsible guys a note or a call. What other manufacturer does that?), or simply shut up.
Just my two cents.
Here is a little preview in english, recommended to all of you not able to use bing or google translater...
enduro-mtb.com/en/eurobike-2015-many-cooks-one-bike-the-alutech-icb2-0
Heh - I read the headline and immediately thought of The Homer, I have another tab open with an image search for it!
Despite all this, both bikes peformed absolutely fantastically and I would highly recommend either to anyone looking for an excellent bike.
For the 2016 season, I have built an FSR trail bike, and beefed up my VPP2 bike for AM/Enduro type riding. So ironically, my better climbing suspension won't see alot of climbing, and my better descending suspension will be doing alot of climbing. Regardless, I have no doubt that i'll find both bikes to be super awesome for their intended applications.
But humans are adaptable and can get used to almost anything done in repetition. I am going to be desiging a 32" trail bike because it rolls over stuff better than 29". It will only need to be ridden in a straight line though. Oh and there going to be FAT tires too. I will have to consult with ONE UP to make a 52t ring in the back so you can ride it uphill.
dirtysixer.com
The other thing was Carver who took ages to get the thing produced. They are a entry level brand with no real experience for real mountain bikes. Guess they wanted this project to enter the market and gain credibility. It basically became available when the hype was over again. Once done, they had made very few, didn't send them to the shops and the build quality was awful.
This version 2.0 is a whole different thing. Alutech has made very good bikes before and now much more testing has been done.
But, the ICB 1.0 has an Geometrie that let´s me smile after every ride. It was and is designed as an bike with lots of downhill skills. The ICB 2.0 shall be something like his little brother with a clear focus as a trail bike. I have seen already one of them an the look and production quality is finest!
Tldr: They found a way to make a single pivot work well and didnt want to make it too complicated
"[...] So, the endpoint of your 5-inch travel bike can be anywhere from no chain growth to 20mm of chain growth. When you combine that with the fact that any effect in compression has an opposing effect in rebound, there aren't many legitimate options from the bottom to the top in that range. Not enough that it's really going to mean the difference between a good bike and a crappy bike. Or that something "pedals great" or "is neutral under braking" - whatever that means. That's bogus. It's what marketing guys, get paid to do: Make up a simple, believable reason why a product is superior. And then repeat those reasons over and over until they become accepted as common knowledge despite the lack of real justification."
The other points that it brings up is that probably the best suspension performance would be a bike designed from the ground up around a specific, single chainring size. Closest we've probably had to that would be DH bikes.
I guess the first step for making an idea like this work is being sincere, not just using it as a free marketing scam and actually respecting the ideas of the community, not disregarding all of their input and remaining a bottom tier company as a result... Loads of respect for Alutech for not being too proud to take on others feedback!
Why is a crowd designed frame MORE expensive when LESS goes into making it? Correct me if I'm wrong but skipping ano should mean cheaper no???
alutech-cycles.com/ICB20
I would habe put an oval internally head tube in an made custom headset cups to allow for an angleset or reach adjust headset to be fitted without fear of misalignment or rotation when in use.
Wheelbase adjustment.
How about integrating the outer tube of a dropper into the seat tube to save weight also (I know this would add cost due to machining tolerances)
Then those bottle cage mounts.
Then the tools mounts.
I could not design a frame...the requirements list would be too long. Haha.
Designing a bike like this will not be cheaper than the manufacturer doing it in-house - they still have to spend a bunch of engineering and design time, and if my experience in software is any indication, then the overhead involved with a project like this would be considerable and more than outweigh the pearls (like the high end engineer in the community donating a really sweet solution to a particular problem). So how does this pencil out for the manufacturer? Honestly curious about that.
I also appreciate this crowd design concept. Seems a cool way of doing things. Didn't Banshee (Mythic for the Brits) also do something similar with their Legend downhill bike or did they design the bike themselves and merely accepted design requirements from the crowd?
it had 26 wheels. later it was updated to fit 650b wheels
www.mtb-news.de/news/2012/08/29/eurobike-2012-das-carver-icb-1-steht-auf-eigenen-raedern
if you need some more information in english or if hav questions, please find our english speaking FAQ and Forum here:
crowd.bike/en/#forums
With the inclusion of a concentric BB and concentric single pivot you will be able to meet the needs of all buyers.
With slotted rear axil you'll provide room for 29" wheels and the width for Plus tires.
You now have a bike that any trail / Enduro rider could live happily without them wishing they bought something else.
Your welcome.
Uhhhhh...
Plus RAW aluminium option is cool (#transition please bring back the raw tr500!)
That's it. Believe me it is stiff and well engineered
it had 26 wheels, looked way better, had a horst link and later it was updated to fit 650b wheels
www.mtb-news.de/news/2012/08/29/eurobike-2012-das-carver-icb-1-steht-auf-eigenen-raedern
See, there are loads of frames out there nowadays with enough room for a bottle at the expense of reduced standover or such a curved downtube. It may be great for some and they are already being catered for. Apparently others including me love a low standover (or at least the yet unnamed difference between standover and BB height) as it makes it so much more fun riding the tight stuff. I also don't really like those very curved downtubes, but obviously that's purely visual and definitely a compromise for someone who'd love to ride with a bottle. Personally I prefer a camelbak (or the like) over a bottle. If you don't already lose it over the bumpy stuff (would hate to walk back up just the fetch it) it could get pretty messy. Also I could probably only drink from a bottle either riding sat down or just having stopped for a break. Last but not least, as your arms and legs are your main suspension, moving weight (water and tools) from the bike to your body reduces the unsprung mass. Reducing unsprung mass by 1kg (full bottle and tools) is massive and should definitely be noticable.
Funny thing in this conversation is that I also like to move around on the bike hence what I want the low standover for. That's what actually allows you to move around. The lighter the bike and the heavier the rider, the more effect moving around actually has provided you're strong enough of course. That's what might put people off the backpack, that they feel being weigh down by the pack so that they are slow moving around. But that's a strength issue, stronger heavier people can move around just fine. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm stronger than you but I'm trying to interpret your statement. I'm not particularly heavy so having some extra weight on my back indeed makes me feel like I have a little more power over my bike (which in turn isn't particularly light).
Obviously lighter frames have become available but at a steep price. Another interesting development is that waterpacks have either been designed for better ventilation and stay in place a little better or even completely integrated in the protection vest. I agree it isn't for everyone but so isn't a bottle. Hence so can't this bike but is definitely suitable for quite a few.