Even some of the most devoted of biblical scholars are unfamiliar with the Book of Jobst. I, however, have a dog-eared copy on my bookshelf. The working title, I should admit straightaway, is not actually "The Book of Jobst". The publisher opted, instead, for
The Bicycle Wheel, but rest assured, for generations of mechanics and wheelbuilders, Jobst's 147-page opus to the wheel was nothing shy of divinely inspired.
Jobst who? If you're asking that question, well, I don't blame you, but it makes my inner unicorn want to trot down to the nearest bar and drink itself blind. Jobst Brandt was, first and foremost, a bad ass on a bike. A tall, lanky powerhouse of a rider who, for decades, had a reputation as one of the toughest, hardest-driving riders in Northern California. Interestingly, Jobst Brandt was not a racer, though he had a profound influence on many young racers, including Tom Ritchey, who would soon pioneer the sport of mountain biking.
Racing--particularly road racing--was full of tactics like sucking a stronger guy's wheel, staying cozy and fresh in his draft and then blowing by him at the sprint finish. That kind of thing struck Jobst Brandt as craven. Jobst believed in going hard, pulling at the front and tearing off your friends' legs and battering them about the heads with their bloodied limbs.
Even the best racers of the day studiously avoided Jobst's Sunday rides, which were ostensibly road rides, but would often devolve into miles of mach-speed riding on dirt. Because Jobst rode insane miles off road and because he put a hurt on bike components and, most importantly, because he was a full-time working engineer, Jobst Brandt was also a font of iron-hard opinions about what makes a wheel strong and what makes a wheel an inexpensive, weak and frustrating pile of shit. After years of building wheels himself and getting angry with riders whose ultra-light wheels broke and screwed up the progress of that weekly death march-slash-ride, Jobst funneled all of his knowledge, insight and, at times, anger, into that Book of Jobst. If you are even slightly interested in the physics, limitations and practicalities of the bicycle wheel, you should pick up a copy.
Like so many other riders, I spent hours poring over the pages of
The Bicycle Wheel. The end result was that I was (and, to some degree, still
am) suspicious of wheels that incorporate the latest space-age materials or opt for the lightest spoke lacing patterns because they shave grams or look insanely cool. Lines such as "It is generally better to be wrong in favor of strength than light weight." and "High quality means durable and reliable, not esoteric, super light, or trendy." and "In most cases it is best to build standard wheels - standard wheels, but good ones - and not yield to fashion, folklore, or advertising." all drive home Jobst's basic world view.
Having been weaned on the teachings contained in The Book of Jobst, I'll admit to having a bias against wheels that strike me as prizing fashion over function.
But where do you draw the line?
Materials change or, more precisely, new materials rise to the fore and our understanding of "old" materials changes. Manufacturing techniques change as well. And because these things are true, the material that might not have made sense for rims or spokes or nipples yesterday, might become not only feasible, but downright awesome tomorrow. There was a time, after all, when the world's best horse-and-buggy man looked at the first steel-spoked wheel that crossed his path and raised his fist to the heavens and cried, "Steel is entirely inappropriate for spokes. Nothing will ever replace a good length of hand-turned ash!" Or something like that. I actually don't know if ash is a better spoke material than, say, teak or yew or whatever... The point is that times change and, at times, our preconceptions probably should as well. At the very least, we should re-examine those preconceptions and ask if they are wanting.
Whew...
So, here's the poll question: Do you prize traditional, tried and true materials, lacing patterns and the like in your wheels? Or is "traditional" just code for "outdated"? Are you absolutely open to running anything and everything when it comes to wheels? Any new technology and material that comes down the pike is fair game? Where do you stand?
Anything that puts all three of those elements in one inseparable package is problematic. Hubs fail. Rims fail (or get smashed). Don't want to toss the whole thing and buy an overly expensive replacement when one of those things happen.
Offspring> Keep em separated /Offspring>
Time for everyone to stop bitching and appreciate how far we've come?
If you still ride aluminium rims then cutting edge isn't your thing (not saying anything negative about alum. rims)
And for the love of Pete, please don't bring back the fanny pack either. Sh#t don't work either.
Please somebody work on some carbon training wheels. We got a lot of people here that don't really ride that probably would probably buy them. Only if there's a water bottle cage though.
The genius is transferring load through tension, not compression.
As soon as you move away from this concept, things get compromised
Now I wore out rims on a Dura Ace wheelset that I bought used for cross racing. Those rims and spokes were available but the price was ridiculous. The shop said that the rim at wholesale in Canada was around $400. Plain aluminum. Spokes were also a stupid price but I don’t recall how stupid. I haven’t tried to get parts for a few years though as I have not needed to.
What is funny about this is that Jobst Brandt would disagree with you. Some decades ago on rec.bikes, he was ruthless and derisive while arguing the position that the hub is supported because the spokes between the hub and the contact point with the ground are in compression. He was right, in a formal engineering sense, but it was certainly amusing to watch the discussions.
Sarcasm apart, you're right and is sadly part of the current craze in all sort of industries and markets
But yeah ruthless and derisive pretty well sums it up too.
I've had many times when friends have broken proprietary wheels (crank brothers, mavic, sram, etc.) and found it very expensive, time consuming, and in some cases impossible to source parts. I'll take a 32h / 3x / j-bend wheel every day thank you!
Telling people they're better for other reasons is nonsense
Agreed, I have broken a couple of spokes too, all at the J-bend. These were factory built wheels. Haven't broken any of my self built wheels yet. But I think what matters too is that these (cheap) factory built wheels use straight gauge spokes. Butted spokes are thinner in the middle which causes them to deform mostly over there and less near the bend, which subjects the bend to less fatigue loads. I mostly build with DT Alpine III though I now mostly ride with a front wheel with DT Revolution spokes and it baffles me that it is still perfectly fine! Then again thinking of it, I wouldn't expect the thinnest section to snap. It is still enough steel to hold up, but the middle section is taking the strain so that the bend takes less.
For my next frame I bought some complete wheels because it was a very good deal (Syntace W35 set for under 400 euro) and I trust they do a great job building wheels. They use spokes with a 1.7mm middle section on the non-drive side and 1.8mm on the drive side (and the opposite on the front wheel) so they're getting more or less even tension left and right (using an asymmetric rim too). Sure 1.7mm sounds thin but really, I've never seen a spoke break in the thinner middle section.
The Avid brakes go #%*EE#}CHKK and AARGH####%%% and FU%#ING#ELL! ALL DAMN DAY LONG!
Crack, crack, crack
Crack, crack, crack
The welds on the Kona go crack, crack, crack all f*****g day!"
I'm curious about Jobst's take on twisted spoke patterns (snowflake). I built my own front wheel like that when I was a kid, and even tho I did it cause of the mega-cool looks, the fact is that it made for a super strong and rigid wheel that never came out of true again (priceless in a time of weak wheels + cantilevers). Sometimes I think of give it a try again
108 mph on a wooden wheel bicycle.
youtu.be/BeOS9pG6vjU
....and while some might call that guy a Wanker, I'd call him a Wankel
I've hand built close to 800 pairs of wheels, I'll take hand built any day for my MTB ????
fantastic writing.
― Ernst F. Schumacher
As far as I'm concerned, MTB wheels should have 32 spokes regardless of how strong the rim is. 4 extra spokes per wheel add almost no weight (lots of fancy wheelsets run 28 spokes-boo), a lot of strength and distribute stress loads more evenly.
Break a spoke on a 32h build? Ride home no problem.....pretty much every time.
Break a spoke on a 28h build. You'll probably ride out, but the wheel will have a big wobble and be hella weak.
Break a spoke on a wheel with anything less than 28 spokes-hope you like pushing your bike!
As for "innovative" composite spoke designs, they aren't new, they aren't lighter than a good 32h build, they don't ride better than a 32h build and they cost more.....and if you damage the wheel the whole thing is shot. If you munch a conventionally laced aluminum rim it's a bummer, but you can reuse the hub and often the spokes.
Spinergy, GT, Spengle and Aerospoke have been building this garbage since the 1990's. It's not new, it didn't work better then and it doesn't work better now. If you're racing on the road, hell yeah get some deep dish low spoke count wheels. For off road use, build yourself (or pay someone to build you) some use-appropriate rims and spokes on some decent hubs (i9, DT, Hope etc.). If you don't go for super gucci hubs and use aluminum rims the cost will even be (relatively) reasonable.
.
I have to confess than when it comes to wheels I've stopped looking at anything that isn't Hope these last few years, they've taken overthe reliable but boring mantle from the Mavic/Shimano combos of old.
They do still sell wheels, but they haven't moved to boost or carbon rims and are basically museum pieces. Also the boxes which one said "made in the USA" have Mexico stickers on them so they arrive saying "made in the Mexico". Let's just say I think they are surviving on their wheelchair business.
I rode their 29er wheels and the perceptible lateral flex for an average trail rider was zero. Might be different for a gravity rider.
Question is- why are they a dinosaur with no one else picking up the technology in a modern carbon wheelset?
The main downside of those spinergy wheels was the aluminum in the hubs and nipples that would corrode make them hard to adjust after a few years. (here in the soaking wet PNW).
Because non-boost wheels and forks are Cheap and some what affordable. As a pirateer, I have to lie, steal and cheat for my ride.
But, you know what, I gotta ride.
It's quite rewarding, and you can use a hope hub on most any bike. Plus, so many pretty colours...
Rim/spoke material I think us up for grabs and totally fine to mess with so long as it’s based on what work: a traditional spoked wheel approach with spokes that have adjustable tension. It just works and produces the lightest/strongest possible wheel that still absorbs the bumps ever so slightly in ways that a one pice wheel simply cannot match for everyday riding.
2-3-4-5 spoke wheels are only superior when it comes to aerodynamics....and always at the expense of ride quality as well as heavier weight. Usually, drastically heavier than a similar wheel made of similar materials or at a similar budget.
For me, if I raced track again I’d be all over hunting down a set of tri spokes or something. Maybe on a fat bike only used for racing in the snow would I consider such as I see the benefit and small bump performance is a non issue. But for anythmg outside of the velodrome or a base of 8-10 inches of packed snow, give me a good solid set of spoked wheels all day long.
For me, aluminum is tried and true. Sure, I break those to, but they are a fraction of the cost to repair.
Also, tried and true. My Chris King hubs. I’ve had them since 2009, they are on their 5th bike, and their sixth wheel set. I won’t go to a 157mm hub, because I can’t get a conversation kit for my current Kings, which started off as a 135mm through axle
For example: If i bought a set of envy rims laced to chris king hubs it's expect a lifetime warranty for the wheelset
Traditional stuff is best in terms of repairs and replacements but for newer gear and tech i feel companies need to kinda make some sort of compromise for the sake of consumers.. we aren't all sponsored pro's at the end of the day.
I abused them both because my bikes are here for me, not vice versa. The aluminum rims have a few wanks that won’t true out. The carbon wheels have one delamination, and a new fissure. The beginning of the end..
Eric
Lots to be said for material innovations in the past 40 years.
Latest wheel: 32 spoke, 3 cross butted with long alloy nipples, carbon rim, symmetric ck ss hub.
With a full CF wheel, unless you manage to destroy the hub, spokes, and rim, it can be rebuilt- each section is made individually then glued together. As far as impact, companies like Koenigsegg and Ford test their CF wheels by smashing them into curbs, and they typically retain enough of their structure to continue to run safely.
I have nice heavy, strong, & cheap Halo wheels on my DH that have never been touched regardless of the beating I give them. So I guess I'm a bit of a hypocrite.
The wheel is very strong as it is today sans the bead, the bead seems to fold over at even the sight of sharp rocks eg giants 'enduro rims' that i demoed i bent the bead in 3 places in 3 hours of riding, i wasnt riding with insane low pressures either.
anyway the bead needs to change.
I also believe that the valve needs to change, ive had moslty minimal trouble with tubless leaking air through bad bead/tire link but ive always had trouble with valve leaking this needs to change
" groan "