Kindernay Internally Geared Hub - First Look

Oct 21, 2016
by Mike Levy  
Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website


What if I said that gearboxes have been around for a very, very long time and that both Shimano and SRAM have made thousands and thousands of them? I'm talking about internally geared hubs, of course, which have been patented since the late 1800s.

There have been mountain bikes that have had an internally geared hub mounted on the frame, with GT's iT1 downhill bike being the one that comes to some people's minds. But, for the most part, internally geared hubs have remained the tools of niche riders on niche bikes.

The German's at Rohloff have ruled the roost in this regard, with their Speedhub being the gold standard when it comes to stuffing a bunch of really small parts inside of a hub shell and making them work for decades on end.

Kindernay XIV Details

• 14-speed internally geared hub
• Hydraulic shift system
• 543-percent gear range
• Evenly spaced steps of 13.9-percent
• Detachable flange design
• Compatible w/ 12mm thru-axles
• Claimed weight: 1,500-grams (w/ the SWAP hub flange), 365-gram shifter
• MSRP: KR 9.990,00 / $1,200 USD
www.kindernay.com
Norwegian company Kindernay might have something for Rohloff, however, with their upcoming 'XIV' 14-speed internally geared hub that employs a neat hydraulic shifter and even neater detachable hub flange system. A what now? We'll get to that.

The XIV hub, which takes its name from the number of gears it has (X is 10, I is 1, V is 5. IV is ''1 less than 5'' = 4, and hence XIV = 14), offers even steps of 13.9-percent between each gear and a total range of 543-percent. That's pretty similar to Rohloff's 14-speed Speedhub that offers a 526-percent range and evenly spaced 13.6-percent jumps, but it looks like Kindernay's hub may come in a bit lighter, at around 1,500-grams for the hub (with the SWAP removable hub flange), and another 365-grams for the hydraulic shifter.

And it's that hydraulic shifter that could see Kindernay's hub appeal to more people. Rather than Rohloff's twist-shifter, the XIV hub is operated by a thumb paddle-shifter using hydraulic fluid. They're calling it 'HYSEQ' which is short for ''hydraulic and sequential,'' and Kindernay says that it provides firm, tactile feedback and can be used to shift through one or many gears in a single push, pedaling forwards or backward, or even standing still. The shifter can also be mounted on either side. Rohloff does have other shifter options out now, but Kindernay's easily removable hydraulic system looks interesting.
Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website
Kindernay's XIV internally geared hub. The black aluminum webbed section is the removable SWAP flange.

The hub's detachable flange design, called SWAP, is probably just as interesting as the HYSEQ shifter. ''Just like other components on the bike that are actually two different parts that can be put together, SWAP makes the gearbox and fully laced wheel detachable from each other,'' the company says. In a nutshell, both sides of the hub flanges are machined as a single piece, and the hub itself slides through and is bolted into the center of the one-piece flange unit. This means that the entire thing can be swapped into a different and already laced up rim if you ever needed to do such a thing, say if you wanted to go to a different wheel size or rim width.


Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website
Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website
The hydraulic shift piece that mounts around the hub axle is said to be easily removable, and the entire hub slides out from the SWAP flange to leave a fully intact rim, spokes and flange unit.

Internally geared hubs are known for their reliability, and Kindernay is claiming that the XIV is built for far more than city riding: ''The Kindernay XIV is tough and ready, designed to handle rough mountain biking: enduro, freeride, DH, and trail riding,'' they explain on their website. "Outlasts your bike – move it on to your next bike, or sell it and upgrade to a next-gen version."

Now the bad news for anyone itching to try one of these hubs: Kindernay says that the first XIV hubs won't be available until the middle of 2017. And how much are these things going to cost? They're listed at a pre-sale price of KR 9.990,00, which is about $1,200 USD if you do a direct conversion, and that price will go up once the XIV hits production.


Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website


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216 Comments

  • + 208
 In theory i still prefer the concept of the Pinion gearbox. Keep the unsprung weight central on the bike. Would enjoy finding out how this performs in tests.
  • + 30
 +1 Would love to see a comparison of these!
  • - 8
flag bonkywonky (Oct 21, 2016 at 1:10) (Below Threshold)
 @Tamasz: Be prepared to land everything ass heavy.. I can see literally no benefits over a Pinion system.
  • + 66
 @bonkywonky: Compatible with any frame, but I also prefer the gearbox concept in performance
  • + 42
 While you're totally right, Priory, the nice thing here is this will bolt onto a large amount of current stock bikes, whereas the Pinion needs a frame tailor made for it. Here's hoping the final MSRP is still lower than a Rohloff. Would love to try one.
  • + 6
 + ~1kg on a rear wheel. This is like + 60% of unsprung mass. I wonder how noticeable this will be.
  • + 122
 @lkubica: I think you are quite of on that calculation.

Kindernay: 1500g incl. hub
-Derailleur: ~270g
-Cassette: ~350g
-Hub: ~300g
= ~580g extra weight

Unsprung weight on mtb:

Derailleur: ~270g
Cassette: ~350g
Wheel: ~950g
Tire: ~800g
Brake caliper: ~150g
Brake rotor: ~90g
= ~ 2610g (not included rear frame and tubeless fluid or tube)

580/2610 = 22% increase in unsprung mass.
  • + 11
 @lkubica: I'm not sure what you're comparing it to. If you look at an all 10sp XT setup (hub, cassette and rear mech) that'd add up to 1kg already. So this would be 500g heavier than that. Then again I haven't that chain tensioner into account. Maybe it could be positioned near the bb like those old Roox things? This hub has a huge range and I haven't figured out what the One-Up modified 11sp XT setup would weight. In that light also, maybe if this tech would trickle down to a 300%-400% range hub (what most people are probably fine with) they might be able to come up with something that's on par with a conventional setup. Of course with a wider flange spacing.

It is a bit of an in-between solution between a full-on internal gearbox bike and a conventional derailleur setup. It is the worst solution in terms of unsprung weight. Similar to the conventional setup, this system gives you more frames to choose from and allows you to bring it along to your next frame. Similar to the gearbox option, it allows you to keep several cheap rear wheels for the same frame. So if you've got a versatile frame you could for instance swap between 29" and 27.5+, or light and heavy duty wheels depending on the conditions without the need for several expensive rear hubs. Add to that the replacement costs of those expensive cassettes (especially considering the 500% range ones and especially if you've got one for every hub) and the price for this hub seems really nice actually.

So yeah, it doesn't have all the advantages a well executed gearbox would have, but it seems definitely like a great option as it is an investment with a much lower risk of becoming obsolete. They just need to release a 10sp hub with a 400% range (more than enough for most riders) and a lower weight (the elephant in the room) making it cheaper as well and I can definitely see it kill both the gearbox and the conventional rear mech business.
  • + 1
 @lkubica: Hmm..If the hydraulic shifter is not included in the hub weight I have to add 365g to the 580g = ~945g.

945/2610 = 36% increase in unsprung mass..
  • + 3
 @satra: That shifter would be sprung weight, or is it the unit attached to the hub?
  • + 1
 @vinay: I think it is attached to the hub.
  • + 29
 I dont get why someone has not come out with a system like this that goes inside of an enlarged BB, central low weight, looks better easy ' standard ' to make and for other manufacturers to take on
  • + 8
 Right guys, but even 20% is a lot, especially that in traditional system there is already too much unsprung weight on rear wheel (with cheaper 1x11 setups with 46 cogs). So you end up with a solution which makes you bike behave worse. As opposed to gearbox which makes you suspension behave visibly better.
  • + 3
 @bigburd: Basically that's what a Pinion system is, but without the planetary system. I think the tricky bit is that a bb gives you less with whereas the loads are probably higher and less symmetric. Accelerations are lower, but loads are higher most of the time. So less width and a larger diameter would be harder to stabilize. But yeah, they somehow manage to put an e-bike motor there as well which is even worse supported so I may be completely off.

I think the whole point is that you should look at this like a very different concept. You have gearbikes, they need an adapted frame but in theory have major advantages over the alternatives. This is what's supposed to fit in a conventional system. That's a different advantage.
  • - 3
 the problem with the pinion is the drag that it creates when in the air causes the bike to rotate forward, because the cogs are still spinning?
  • + 2
 @doe222: Depends on where the freewheel is. If you have a hub with a freewheel, this won't happen. The Cavalerie tested on PB didn't have a freehub so the gears kept spinning whilst coasting. I don't think there is any gear hub where the gears are spinning while you're coasting so I don't expect it to be the case here either. Hence drag whilst coasting shouldn't be any different compared to a "regular" mtb hub whilst coasting.
  • + 8
 Anybody tried singlespeed instead of 7 gears on a DH bike? You lose roughly 400 grams unsprung weight (give or take), and boy do you notice that. Makes the suspension much more lively and damper needs more comp and rebound after that. Adding over 500 grams of unsprung weight with this hub? on my DH bike out of question.
  • + 7
 The 24 POE (points of engagement, per their website) turns me right off. That's 15° of crank rotation! No thanks.
  • + 6
 That Process to change speeds sure is nice.
  • + 2
 @satra: you forgot chain tensioner weight.
  • + 1
 @properp: I think you can mount the chain tensioner close to the bb and then it wouldn't count as unsprung anymore.
  • + 2
 You'd have to have a special frame with large BB and shifter ports but if this slid into the BB and rear wheel was left alone. i'm not an engineer and not sure of all the details but that could be awesome.
  • + 1
 @MTBrent: That depends ratio between teeth front and rear. I wouldn't expect it to be 1:1. If you run 32t in the front and 16t in the rear, that would make 48 points of engagement per crank rotation. Would that do? I don't even know what a typical XT hub does to be honest. Keep in mind though that on a conventional mtb hub your those points of engagement per crank rotation depend on which gear you're in. So if you happen to be running 22t in the front and 44t in the rear (on a steep upslope when running a 2x setup) you'd also get 15deg of crank rotation even if you'd run a hub with 48 POE.

@satra Yeah, would the Roox cat or dog thing do that? It definitely makes sense to move the chain tensioner to a less turbulent area as that is what eventually derails the chain. Would be silly to need a chain tensioner with a clutch system.
  • + 4
 @vinay: gear ratio does not affect POE
  • + 2
 @vinay: Very true, good point. However, 24 POE (1:1) is still quite a bit lower than other well known conventional hubs.
  • + 1
 i def like the idea of gear boxes for weight distribution but i am all for eliminating rear derailleurs. with that said I still run a rear derailleur....
  • + 1
 @doe222: nope, can run normal rear hub so doesn't still spin..
  • + 3
 I wonder if the real reason the flange is detachable is to make it easier to mount somewhere on the frame.
  • + 5
 all this talk of un sprung weight... have you guys heard of hard tails?
  • + 1
 Guys, commuter bikes. Performance mountain bikes? Not so much.
  • + 1
 @satra: 1865 - (SRAM EAGLE) 250 - 330 - 110 - 250 (derailleur, cassette, shifter, hub) = 925
1865 - (XTR with 1042) 220 - 260 - 100 - 250 (derailleur, cassette, shifter, hub) = 1035

You do get that extra 1Kg tight there at the rear ... does it make a difference? I am sure not unless you are a pro down hiller, and then you do not need 14 speeds in the back!!!!!
  • + 3
 @bonkywonky: "Be prepared to land everything ass heavy."

No. That's now how physics works. Gravitational acceleration on Earth is 9.8 m/s^2. Get it together, bonkywonky.
  • + 1
 @satra: even less of a difference with cheaper heavier components
  • + 2
 @satra: But wouldn't these hub/flange units warp to hell under mtb or dh loads....even just the wheel build??
  • + 2
 @bigburd: they have, and its awesome. www.zerodebikes.com/page/enduro
  • + 0
 Love the idea of a hydronic gearbox! But adding weight to the wheels isn't my favorite. I would love to see bike companies design their frames for these type of gearboxes to fit at the bottom bracket. And then maybe a belt system instead of a chain? Bikes would be so damn quiet that the silent cheer would get even better!
  • + 1
 @vinay: 1500 grams for the hub isn't it, add rim spokes rotor etc..
  • + 1
 @satra: Don't forget the Swingarm and bearings! ;-)
  • + 2
 I suppose the weight of this gearbox has got to be really close to a normal set up on a bike. You have weight for the: Hub, derailleur, hanger, cassette. It has to be so close. Plus it should make your bike super quiet. And it gets rid of some noise. I would definitely be willing to run this on my bikes.
  • + 0
 @bigburd: the gammerschmidt cranks were a bit like what you say but had only 3 gears. No idea about performance. Guess there is too little room in a conventional bb shell for more gears.
  • + 2
 @doe222: ahhhhh NO. The weight is central and low. Being the main weight of the bike, the rest of the bike pivots around it. The gears are not spinning all the time. It has no gyroscopic effect on the bike. Best not to speculate as fact, you can make all kinds of rumours happen. I think it would make the front wheel come up anyway if your theory was correct, it's not though. Even when spinning, all the internal gears aren't going the same direction anyway.
  • + 2
 @mooseman414: and you can shift without pedalling. This is a massive advantage you don't apresiate until owning a gearbox bike.
And the lack of maintanenece and risk of damage while riding.
  • + 1
 @bigburd and others :
A few years ago there was the Nuseti project ; kickstarter campaign failed.

www.velotech.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/nuseti-boite-de-vitesses.jpg
actuduvttgps.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Nuseti-3.jpg
antyweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Zrzut-ekranu-22.jpg

BB/IGH housing wasn't round and chain was hidden inside chainstay.
Maybe too ambitious.
  • + 74
 Can't believe they felt the need to explain roman numerals in that 5th paragraph. Sad. LOL!
  • + 103
 Oh, you mean the Vth paragraph.
  • + 17
 I thought the Superbowl already taught everyone the Roman numeral system
  • + 5
 @Grmasterd:
The what?
  • + 30
 Shame you haven't actually shown the shifter....
  • + 6
 @Alturis: Jaysus that is pretty!
  • + 24
 The shifter paddles might aswell be knives.....
  • + 23
 @stuiewarrior: ...pretty knives though
  • + 0
 Do you like the idea of left down/right up shifters on a bike? It kind of turned me off for some reason, they should have the option of a Shimano trigger style for that price, especially for people who want to run a front derailleur.
  • + 6
 @Kramz: If its anything like a Rohloff you won't be able to run a front derailleur anyway. Rohloff have parameters for chain ring / sprocket sizing to keep the torque within certain levels so you can't damage the internals. Plus who needs a front derailleur with a 543% gear range?
  • + 4
 @Kramz: Why would you run a frond derailleur when you have 543% gear range?? do you ride up walls and go down on steep streets?
  • + 2
 As far as I have gathered, the shifter is not finalized yet. It will be right side only.
  • + 12
 @Nahguavkire: pretty?! those bar clamps look like some blocky old hope parts from the 90's!
  • + 1
 @olliekidner: They should probably have a fluid reservoir as well, but I also think that for bike brakes. I guess you don't want a ton of extra weight.
  • + 6
 @olliekidner: I agree, you'd have to be rocking Helen Keller levels if blindness to think those things look good in their current form!
  • + 2
 No wonder why it weights so much, they have a decent weight optimization round to do here...
Quite frankly I would be ashamed to post a shifter that weights 25% of a 14 speed hub...
  • + 3
 @djpearce: To be fair I feel like we're paying internet fees to do free R&D work for the company on here, so might as well try to cover all the basis so we're not getting f*cked again by buying a piece of shit.
  • + 3
 @djpearce: My thoughts exactly and they could reduce more weight and more cost (hopefully) with going with one shifter.
  • + 1
 @EnduroManiac: a guy from SRAM said that as soon as they released XX1 people starting calling and sending mails if it would work with double chainrings... 22t granny to 42t rear - because you don't climb enough maaaaan
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: that's because some people better ask questions than think. They don't realize that the 10-42 cassette alone has more range than what they used 20 years ago with a triple crankset. On the other hand, they are also 20 years older now...
  • + 1
 @EnduroManiac: In the mid 90's I had a triple 44/32/22 with an 11-28 cassette = 509% and now have a double with 36/24 with 11-40 cassette=545% and the new sram eagle = 500% but yeah this is pretty good, the pinion 18 speed is over 630%
  • + 1
 @stuiewarrior: I like the Scandinavian design as much as the next guy, but don't be afraid to add some texture and round the corners so I don't slice my thumb if it slips in the wet.
  • + 22
 My predicament: "my rear hub is f*cked, I should probably buy the greatest one ever made with my mountain of.................lint? no...............grass clippings? no..............dead leaves? no..............semen? no...............plastic grocery bags? no............ well that settles that"
  • + 3
 Kidney (preferably someone else) on the black market might float the bill for it.
  • + 2
 actually lol'd
  • + 1
 It would take a lot of semen.
  • + 25
 Gears are the hub of the internal mountain bike community.
  • + 10
 Time to shift in a new direction
  • + 13
 I'm geared towards less unsprung weight..
  • + 10
 Don't let the conversation get derailed off point.
  • + 10
 You should have spoke to somebody before posting this comment.
  • + 11
 Some products are better kept internal. Others are geared towards a wider audience.
  • + 22
 "The XIV hub, which takes its name from the number of gears it has (X is 10, I is 1, V is 5. IV is ''1 less than 5'' = 4, and hence XIV = 14"

Did they ask you to show your work for this article?
Smile
  • + 12
 .....and the author managed to insult the intelligence of the entire PB community. I would have been happier with the name Norteno and an explanation of how the 14th letter is N.
  • + 7
 Isn't it unfortunate that he has to explain roman numerals though?
  • - 9
flag kleinblake (Oct 21, 2016 at 17:50) (Below Threshold)
 @rmalexan: why? I'm not f*ckin Roman
  • + 6
 @kleinblake: are you a Donald Trump supporter ?
  • + 3
 @cliffdroper: good lord no, there's a difference between xenophobia and being expected to know the numbers from a dead language. Either way, my comment was in jest
  • + 13
 Pffff. Gonna need to bleed the trannys too now.
  • + 11
 14 gears for DH? Do i need that many? Could I get a lighter one with less gears?
  • + 2
 7 speed is enough for most racers... so I agree with you totally. How does 5 gears sound?
  • + 5
 @hillatoppa: 5 would be ideal for me
  • + 3
 Even for all mountain. Curious how a 5 speed 10-16-22-32-42 would feel. Save a bunch of weight too
  • + 5
 one is enough for park
  • + 2
 @ibishreddin:

Great point - question is, can a drivetrain shift effectively going through such large gearing jumps?

If so, I'd be all over making a custom cassette to see if this could work
  • + 1
 @ledude: Thats the only problem i would see. Might feel like a clunky front derralier shift
  • + 2
 @ibishreddin: ,

But dude, it might be worth a shot....i'm going to try and steal a few hours to myself and mess with an 'outdated' cassette.....might even decrease from 7 to 5....I ain't no racer...but I climb and descend so I need both tall and small gear.
  • + 2
 It doesn't have to be bigger jumps with 5 speed for DH, could be the equivalent of say 4th to 9th on a 36x10, or what ever arrangement you need, I rarely find my self in the smallest cog so would be plenty happy with the same ratio as 4th to 9th on a normal setup but in some gearbox/alternative package.
  • + 1
 @bigburd: true, the rub is when you want a gearing spread that can be effective for climbing and shredding going down.
  • + 11
 I can´t even believe you explained roman figures in such detail! Don´t you learn that at school?
  • + 5
 Mate, some of the people on here don't know the difference between "than" and "then!" Roman numerals? Yeah right, you may as well be speaking Martian.
  • + 0
 @stumpymidget: but i can't. What now?
  • + 10
 So glad for the explaination of Roman Numerals
  • + 9
 Needed to meet a word limit haha
  • + 3
 @breno-4551: That's EXACTLY what I thought while reading it!
  • + 5
 I'm pretty much sold on it. Rohloff has just missed the opportunity of a lifetime by not making a 12mm compatible speedhub... Gearbox bikes aren't gonna happen in large scale for quite some time, but this is mainstream compatible. Price is slightly steep, but still OK for what they offer. Might need to preorder one...
  • + 6
 A downhill bike really only needs four or five speeds maximum, and I've never seen the need for 10. ......and no, this will not fit on my Canfield Jedi, not that I'd spend a thousand dollars for a rear hub.
  • + 9
 Test Asap Please
  • + 7
 Just, why would price go up when production start ?
I don't get the economical reasoning here ...?
  • + 7
 I thought that too, seems a bit odd to have a price that is already on the high side, then say it will cost even more when it's released? That may put it well out of the reach of the average rider.
  • + 6
 Do you really need to explain Roman numerals? I guess it depends on the demographic......

Cool hub BTW, take my money!
  • + 3
 How does hydraulic shifting work in the cold?
Droppers don't work great.
Hydro brakes don't work great.
I would see this going best on a winter (fat) bike because you typically aren't leaving the ground all that much and it would be less prone to icing up over a regular derailleur.
  • + 5
 Would love to see commentary on how durable it is, and performance. If it checks out I'm excited to see geared hubs on the next gen of bikes.
  • + 0
 I am also curious as to durability. I owned two bikes with SRAM's Hammerschmidt front two-speed gear box, one an AM trail bike and one a downhill rig. About two years into putting some decent miles on the trail bike, the gear box just couldn't stand up to the hard torque of climbing and internal parts started loosing up and slipping. The repair on these units is quite expensive and not something an average joe is going to replace in your home workshop. I ended up replacing the Hammerschmidt with a traditional 2-up front chain ring and haven't looked back since. As for the DH bike, the Hammerschmidt is still going strong and I love the extra clearance and instant shifting I get from it. I assume the longevity is associated with the significantly less uphill use that it receives compared to my AM bike. In this role, the geared box is perfect. I would love to see the Hammerschmidt paired with the XIV on a DH rig. Coolio!
  • + 4
 I think they have tested it quite hard, as one of the developers (and testers) is a former Norwegian National Downhill Team member.
  • + 1
 Not going to happen, Rohloff was tried on DH bikes and did not work well enough, might help if sealed the chain for losses in efficiency for poor riding conditions, but that is not help with unsprung weight?
  • + 1
 i dont know i reckon that web would twist over time under heavy braking and cause problems
  • + 2
 @Kerplunk: Something I have not seen mentioned, and relating to your comment on repair...the fact that the gearbox can be removed from the hub shell is amazing for this. If there are maintenance issues, you can quickly remove the failing assembly without unlacing the wheel, maybe they could send you a loaner unit while yours is being fixed etc.
  • + 2
 @Kerplunk: You might have got a lemon on your AM bike. My HammerSchmidt on my AM bike has tons of miles on it with no problems.
  • + 1
 @aljoburr: Lahar won the worlds in NZ using a Rohloff hub mounted inboard.
Guessing these hubs will be great for that application, providing they're narrow enough. I wonder if one will fit on my Zerode and if I can remove half its gears.
  • + 1
 @DGWW: Good point. I like the quick-change nature of this hub.
  • + 5
 Thought it would be better to explain to our American friends where Rome is rather than focusing on numerals. One thing at a time.
  • + 4
 How can you remove the back wheel for maintenance, or puncture repairs on the trail if there hydraulic hoses connected to the hub?
  • + 3
 "The hydraulic shift piece that mounts around the hub axle is said to be easily removable"
  • + 4
 @pbuser2299: "Many people are telling me this"
  • + 2
 What about a mix between a pinion gearbox and this hub? reduce the amount of gears in each and split it between the two? Drop the weight and size of the pinion so it's a little easier for companies to work it into preexisting bike designs and then with the rear hub same kinda thing which would help with rotating mass.

I don't know, maybe not worth it but hey it would be interesting to see.
  • + 2
 I use an internally-geared hub on my winter road bike and here are a couple of reasons why I'd be hesitant to put one on my mtn bike (based on my experience with a Nexus 11).

1) Unreliable shifting under load: With my Nexus the pedals ideally should be unweighted to ensure the gears engage properly. This was a surprise and disappointment to me. On more than one occasion I have shifted under load and had the gears either skip (like skipping between cogs) or spin out (like dropping a chain). Now I unweight the pedals to shift, which is not ideal for mtn biking in my opinion.

2) The rear wheel feels like a boat anchor. I couldn't imagine lugging an internally-geared hub around on a mtn bike. It does not feel nimble or responsive.

Again this is based on my experience with a Nexus 11 speed.
  • + 2
 1200 USD is not bad if you ask me. Yeah, if you guy SLX Hubs and Gearing then yeah, but as an owner of a CK hub and XT stuff this is really not so far off the mark as to write it off as too expensive. If it lasts longer than a derailleur and cassette you might be able to break even.
  • + 4
 Especially when you consider that SRAM cassettes cost around $300 and you can go through 2 or more in a season.
  • + 1
 Chaps its going to be at least a further decade before gearbox equipped bikes are in the mainstream production of most big brands. However tempting they are with the benefits of such system I'm resisting the sense to get excited over it yet.

SRAM and Shimano will have something lined up already but I imagine they're not going into production until they fell that they will make full sales of those equipped bikes (sink or swim product). Just the simple factor such as all manufacturers of frames/bikes adhering to the new gearbox frame tab/attachment will be an absolute nightmare as most, if not all bikes have over the years gone through year after year of re evaluation and design to improve the performance on the current gearing system......."hey guys your bikes dialled in pretty well, good job but were now using this alien looking box so you're going to have to start over"

In my view this is as to why we have to wait, so that everyone behind closed doors, with lots of coffee and stuff can make it happen, right, and first time with everyone conforming so we can continue to enjoy the sport seamlessly from external gears to internal.
  • + 3
 I very much prefer the idea of an internally geared hub to a gearbox. I imagine maintenance would be significantly easier on this than it would be on a Pinion.
  • + 1
 I'd be very keen to try this - compared to Hope rear hub with SRAM Eagle cassette this will add 750g approx. to the weight at the back axle... not prohibitive in my view and vs less high end set ups the weight penalty will be less...
  • + 1
 The large mass of the back of the bike, it's not a good idea - it seems more reasonable design used in Zerode Bike. A total of hub is not all that light, because the hub gear from Rolhoff weighs have the same or less depending on the version...
  • + 3
 A serious concurrent to the Rohloff which is not compatible with thru axles.
  • + 1
 Like Tyler Klassen and Tarek Rasouli I bouth a 14 gear Rohloff Speedhub on my first freeride bike and I still ride it! And I will put the Rohloff Speedhub also in my newer bikes! I love it!
  • + 1
 Please put the efficiency data for each gear. Rohloff at this moment is the best efficiency internal gear hub. This link is very good bikeshed.johnhoogstrate.nl/bicycle/drivetrain/shimano_alfine_inter_11
  • + 1
 Do you guys think a geared hub adds too much 'pre-suspension' weight vs. a gearbox in a bottom bracket which would be protected by the suspension and move the weight more centered and lower?
  • + 4
 Yes. See discussion of "unsprung weight" (the engineering term) elsewhere in the comments.
  • + 1
 $1200 USD and still has the chain returning to the front sprocket off an idler gear which is 3 inches below the hub. Why must you have this derailleur looking feature which is ready to be bashed by rocks and trees?
  • + 2
 You don't need it if your suspension is concentric(no chain growth) or on a hardtail with adjustable chainstay(horizontal drop outs)or adjustable bb etc.
  • + 3
 I like hubs with gears but I don't like the idea of still having a chain tensioner like a deleurier to hit rocks
  • + 2
 That Black Hollow hub looks sexy. But how in the hell is it manufactured!??!?! Looks to be fully cnced. At least 2 or 3 re-setups? Very expensive looking part.
  • + 2
 Doesn't look like multiple setups because the big windows are pretty much normal to the diameter. That suggests its on a rotating 4th axis. Or, live tooling on a turning center. Like a big Swiss screw machine Or a 5 axis machine. Still expensive.
  • + 3
 I need someone to explain to me how XIV means 14, but in much more detail. I still dont get it.
  • + 0
 The unsprung weight objection is stupid. You have real world experience or just flapping your lips? Pinion requires modifying a frame and messing with frame engineering...a hub doesn't. Get on a Rholoff then come back and talk. You're not attaching a barbell to your rear...stupid objection.
  • + 0
 "What if I said that gearboxes have been around for a very, very long time and that both Shimano and SRAM have made thousands and thousands of them?"

Well Levy, I'll tell ya what I'd say. I'd say "$hitmano & $CAM have been pumping out some of the shittiest geared hubs the world has ever seen, for use by the least demanding & least abusive riders that pedal bikes while they continue to insist that hanging a routine failure in the path of rocks & sticks is the best method for the opposite end of the spectrum. It's not like park strollers & commuters are gonna thrash a drivetrain in either case so WTF's it matter? Give them the superior method, but for those dirty MTBers that'll smash, crack, bend & wear the fvck out of a derailleur (consequently needing to buy another) it's a different story that makes no sense whatsoever." I'd tell you Levy, that "this industry is just aboat as stupid as a Bible with the garbage it tries to sell people & the really sad thing is, it's damn near as successful too". :/

Hydraulic shifting in a gearbox is something I've been wondering aboat for a bit of a while now. This company really has slammed a ton of much needed ingenuity into the industry with this piece BUT, a hub is the wrong place. Stick it in the frames of bikes made by builders that know better & you've got yourself one unstoppable MTB. Bet it'll be real easy to do with that SWAP system they got goin' on 'ere. Zerode, Nicolai, Cavelerie, ya heard?
  • + 1
 So all the alk about extra 580g. What does an 6 speed rear setup weigh vs the git new 11/12 speed. We all jumped on board with 7 speed 8 then 9 now 11. The point is... more range will cost. Do u want pay?
  • + 4
 Looks cool but you lost me at $1200... maybe...
  • + 1
 $1200 is including Norvegian VAT of 25%, so ~$960 before sales tax.
  • + 3
 What about an internally geared bottom bracket to save unsprung weight?
  • + 2
 "X is 10, I is 1, V is 5. IV is ''1 less than 5'' = 4, and hence XIV = 14" double BOSSSSSSSSSS
  • + 1
 I love my Rohloff and the cable shifter works perfectly. Hydraulic shifting would just be another mechanical liability. But Pinion, that's the dream.
  • + 3
 So do you see hydraulic brakes as a liability?
  • + 1
 @bigtim: Yes, but they're well worth it.
  • + 1
 @bigtim: I ride when its below freezing. It didn't say if it were DOT or mineral. Hydraulic dropper posts for example - work great when its warm, but when the mercury drops, the seat won't.
DOT doesn't react to temperature as drastically. But I love the concept! Take my money!
  • + 1
 Great looking hub and that SWAP hub shell is brilliant.
Any shots of this 'HYSEQ' shifter?
How do you remove the hydraulic lines once the wheel is out of the frame?
  • + 1
 hey what about put the hub at the bottom bracket and put a 34 tooth single sprocket on the rear, I think they can figure how to do that ? just saying...
  • + 3
 Thank you for the detailed explanation on how roman numerals work
  • + 3
 I've got to wait until MMXVII for this? You're f*cking kidding me.
  • + 2
 I wonder how it would feel with a gearbox up front.. Would it ride like an "internal Eagle"?
  • + 6
 you could probably fit a 3x10 onto a gearbox with an internal geared hub if you tried hard enough.1500% ratio bitches
  • + 2
 It's not that you need to, it's because you can. It's about progression.
  • + 0
 For all you gearbox-fans out there. Doesn't you suffer from longer CS compared to conventional framedesigns? What benefits the most? Shorter chainstays, or less unsprung weight?
  • + 1
 You forgot shifting any time.
Centred low weight.
Less maintainence.
Like risk of damage.
More responsive suspension.
Better ground clearance(smaller chainring).
I don't think Pinion or Effigear compromise chain stay length. Not more than most bikes anyway.
  • + 2
 14 gears, looks like the flight of SRAM's Condor may have its wings clipped.
  • + 1
 Nicolai is what comes to mind since they have been doing this longest, and best. Nobody remembers that obtuse GT contraption, it's instead called nightmares/flashbacks/etc.
  • + 1
 The GT was cool, just let down massively by geometry. They released it years after they'd designed it.
  • + 2
 Shifting without pedalling? That's the part that stuck out to me.
  • + 1
 That's pretty much how all gearboxes work.
  • + 1
 It's like the ROLHOFF system! No maintenance almost ever and never any issues! Never understood why nobody uses them...
  • + 2
 They weigh a ton. It's plain an simple. It completely unbalances your bike so unless you're some long distance flog who never gets airborne or hits trails steeper than a green run it's safe to say it won't be very fun on your bike.
  • + 1
 @miff: in northern europe most city bikes have those hubs..three gears only but they are pretty small and do definitely not weigh a ton..I'm sure that with some investements it wouldn't be too complicated to make a lightweight version!
  • + 1
 @TheLongMan: My dad raves about the old 3-speed sturmey archer hubs all the time, The current model of that is just under 1kg, that's more than 3 times the weight of any given rear hub. It's still severely unbalancing for a mountain bike because the weight isn't centred. Great for city bikes though.

I still believe that Pinion/Nicolai are on the right track here. Zerode as well as well his trail-bike frame he made... redesign your frame around a small bolt-in gearboxBB. That's the future!
  • + 1
 Forecast; cloudy, with dry and empty pockets from another failed roloff wannabe gear hub.
  • - 1
 Mountain biking is becoming too tech. To an extent, it is fun, and necessary to worry about technologies, but more people nowadays are worried about the bike and componants than the ride and just shredding.
  • + 1
 At least with that weight on your backwheel, you're certain to avoid nosedive Smile
  • + 1
 I'm actually very excited about this... Price is actually less than some Rohloff models.
  • + 2
 Let's see a picture of the interesting shifter.
  • + 0
 you still have that tensioner hanging down in this design. you break that on a trail, you are just as screwed as you would have been with a lighter derailleur setup.
  • + 1
 But your less likely to break it. It can be mounted behind chainring and tensioner deflects in the direction of strikes and you can ru. Tensioners much hotter than mechs.
  • + 2
 Watcht my whip Got kendernay nay
  • + 1
 Innovation is always good to see in our sport weather you like it or not. This means we are still moving forward.
  • + 1
 First they told me 26in was dead, then my hub spacing, after that my eleven speed, now I need an invisible drivetrain?
  • + 2
 Let's see the flipp'n shifter!
  • + 1
 The explanation of Roman numerals at the beginning was probably quite appreciated by American readers.
  • + 3
 Are you kidding? Street gangs in the US have given us an in-depth understanding of the system.
  • + 1
 I've been waiting for this. Finally someone starts to rethink shifting. I'm looking forward to what's next.
  • - 2
 I was interested reading through the article until the last photo which shows a chain tensioner?!?! The reason I'm looking at an internal geared hub is to avoid issues with the fragile derailleurs which get smashed to sh*t on rogue rocks and roots. Why build a pimping internal geared hub and then stick a flimsy tensioner on?
  • + 9
 You kind of have to run one on a full suspension bike
  • + 1
 ..
  • + 0
 @Canker: Is it different if you have a gearbox over the bottom bracket then, or is it about the floating pivot point? I'm thinking of something like the Cavalerie Anakin www.cavalerie-bikes.com/home-en
  • + 3
 @butchy020: cavalerie use gearbox output coaxial with pivot point. So no need of chain tensionner, but you have no anti-squat, which means pedal bob.
  • + 1
 Those photos make me miss my Process 153 :-(
  • + 0
 wait wait wait....theres still a derailleur type yoke to smash off rocks..so whats the point?
  • + 3
 Well thats more due to the suspension geometry ... Even a gearbox would need a chain tensioner under certain geometry !
  • + 0
 you could get one that mounts behind chainring so it doesn't
  • + 1
 This is pretty cool! Reminds me of what your coming up with @plasmaninjaa
  • + 1
 Pinon need to steal that shifter mechanism ????
  • + 2
 I LOVE Saint ^.^
  • + 1
 That's pretty sad they had to explain roman numerals...
  • + 1
 we love this, keep it up PB !!!
  • + 1
 omfg, its too cheap. this is so cool!
  • + 1
 Omg its expensive. Omg i want one.
  • + 1
 take my money!!!! I've been waiting for a gearbox for awhile!
  • + 1
 uhhhhh...isn't the whole point of this to render the derailleur obsolete?
  • + 1
 What about a hydraulic derailleur? No more cable stretch....
  • + 1
 Wonder if I can fit this in my Zerode frame.....
  • + 2
 Bam! That's what I'm talking about. This tech is interesting in its approach, and with the Zerode it would be killer. The Zerode tensioner is tucked inside the frame, isn't it? All these whiners and the answer already exists.
  • + 1
 Er... spoke count?? Pretty critical piece of spec missing....
  • + 1
 Its so heavy!
  • + 0
 Hope could dominate if they entered this market.
  • + 1
 Pizza vs caviar
  • + 1
 That is the business!
  • + 3
 I thought it might appeal to you, being in Roman numerals.
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