Kindernay Gear Hubs Offer Hydraulic Shifting, Relatively Low Weight & Can Swap Between Bikes

Sep 2, 2021
by Seb Stott  


Whenever gearboxes or gear hubs are mentioned it becomes clear there are a lot of gearbox fans out there, and it's easy to see why - derailleurs are finicky, vulnerable and unreliable. But there are a few good reasons derailleurs still dominate over gearboxes: weight, compatibility, shifter ergonomics and drivetrain efficiency. Kindernay's gear hubs appear to solve some of these issues.

Kindernay is an engineering company that has developed hydraulic gear shift systems trucks, so they should know a thing or two about building gearboxes. Alongside hubs for commuter bikes and fat bikes, the company has two gear hubs that could appeal to mountain bikers: the XIV and the brand new VII. Both are available with 12x148mm and 12x142mm axles and could be fitted to most bikes, including ebikes.

Fans of Roman numerals will have guessed the XIV offers fourteen gears and the VII has seven. The XIV has a massive 543% gearing range, with consistent 13.9% gaps between gear ratios - no single-ring derailleur system can match that. It costs €1,249.92. Meanwhile, the new VII has a gear range of 428% (similar to a 10-42t 11-speed cassette) over 7 speeds, with meaty 28% intervals between gear ratios. Unfortunately, it's OEM only for now. Both use a pretty interesting hydraulic shifting mechanism and interchangeable "swap cages" which allow one hub to be used on multiple bikes.

Kindern XIV internally geared hub Photo from Kindernay website

Weight

Perhaps the most important downside of gearboxes is the weight. And unlike frame-mounted gearboxes, the mass of a gear hub is unsprung, meaning it has to move up and down with the suspension, so suspension performance suffers. The Kindernay XIV has a claimed weight of 1,400g for the hub alone, while the VII weighs 1,200g. For comparison, a Rohloff Speedhub weighs about 1,545g for the raw hub.

The weight of the VII isn't too far off the weight of a conventional hub, cassette and derailleur combined - a DT Swiss 350 rear hub weighs 270g, a Shimano Deore 12-speed cassette weighs 593g and the derailleur weighs 318g, which adds up to 1,181g. So the XIV gear hub is in the same ballpark as a "workhorse" 12-speed derailleur drivetrain.

There's also the swap cage (more on that later) which weighs around 100g, the hydraulic connector for the shifting, a sprocket, plus you'll need a chain tensioner, but we're still only talking about a few hundred grams more unsprung mass over a budget derailleur drivetrain. The total unsprung mass at the rear wheel is typically 3-4 Kg, so this is in the neighbourhood of a 10% increase.

The claimed total system weight is 1,750g. A standard shifter and cable weigh around 200g, so added to the hub, cassette and derailleur the comparable conventional setup would weigh around 1,381g. That means a total weight penalty of about 369g compared to Deore 12-speed.

The shifter design is more elegant and more conventional than many gearbox systems.

Shifting

Most gearboxes need two cables to operate the shifting; that means they often require a grip shift, which isn't ideal for mountain biking. Kindernay's gear hubs use a pair of hydraulic hoses to operate the shifting and a conventional-looking under-bar shifter with thumb shift levers. By the looks of it, that should be more familiar to most mountain bikers and it allows you to use normal grips. Kindernay call this shifter the Onesie; there is also the option of the Twosie, which splits the hoses so the upshift is on one side of the bar and the downshift on the other, but most mountain bikers with dropper remotes will go for the Onesie.

While gearboxes don't like to shift while pedalling hard, these hubs can shift multiple gears at once without pedalling.

Swap cages are available with 28, 32 or 36 spoke holes.

Compatability

While frame-mounted gearboxes only work with frames designed to accommodate them, one advantage of gear hubs is they work with normal frames. But fitting a gear hub involves lacing it to a rim, and if you want to swap the hub to a different bike you may need to re-build the wheel with a different rim. Kindernay offers their hubs with interchangeable swap cages which alleviate this problem. The cage is laced to a rim and the hub can quickly be detached from this and installed onto another swap cage/wheel. This makes it possible to share a hub between multiple bikes or keep the hub when you change your bike. Of course, this isn't as simple as fitting a new derailleur or cassette, but it should make the gear hub easier to live with.

Thoughts

While the VII only offers seven speeds, the gearing range should be enough for most people. Fewer gears mean less weight and the VII isn't all that far off the weight of some derailleur drivetrains. Yes, it's still heavier, but not by an amount that should keep anyone up at night. Drivetrain drag and the inability to shift under load are still huge drawbacks of many gearbox systems and I don't know how Kindernay's hubs stack up on those fronts, but the swap cage system and shifter design look promising. It would be interesting to see it fitted to some rugged bike-packing bike where reliability is king.

Is it still too heavy? Are seven gears enough? Let us know what you think in the comments.


129 Comments

  • 198 1
 I skipped the article and went straight to the comment section so someone could explain to me why this sucks or won’t work. There were no comments yet, my day is ruined and I still don’t know what to think about this hub.
  • 26 1
 "While gearboxes don't like to shift while pedalling hard, these hubs can shift multiple gears at once without pedalling.". This sentence looks like it was written with 4pt font on your cereals while mentioning the amount of added sugar and preservatives Wink
  • 40 0
 44 mins later and still the same issue. I'm going to go and look for some welds to criticise and come back to this in an hour.
  • 83 0
 With enough pinkbike comment time under your belt you can just predict the comments, and have the argument with yourself in their absence in your own head. Something along the lines of "I work for [improbably well known company] and [complicated engineering waffle] means that this is completely overshadowed by [obscure mathematical crap] but I still like the all [material] version produced in the early 00's by [bike designer] for [company that no-longer exists]."
  • 14 0
 @lkubica:
But don't we shift traditional derailleurs under load because we're in the wrong gear and you have to pedal to change gear, a gearbox/hub gear would allow you to choose the correct gear before we need it rather than when it's too late. I think it would be fine once you get used to it but we're all so accustomed to having to pedal to change gear. Imagine if a car could only change gear when you're on the gas.
  • 5 0
 @DC1988: I agree that we could get used to that in time, and the extra weight isn't the end if the world. The thing I'd be most concerned with is the amount of extra drag created.
  • 6 0
 @DC1988: I think it is 50:50. There are certainly times when I would love to change gear without pedalling. There are times when I would like to change it under load. Guess PB user cannot be ever satisfied Wink
  • 2 0
 @Woody25: you are 2hours late
  • 5 0
 Can’t fix it yourself in the middle of the woods.
  • 8 2
 @tremeer023:
Seb Stott's recent article mentioned how hub gears tend to create less friction than gearboxes and that it was only slightly less efficient than a derailleur. Once you take into account worn/dirty chains and poor chainline then there's probably nothing in it for an average rider.
I think a good gearbox solution could be made but it needs the big players to get behind it. Less drag, less weight and a single cable thumb shifter.
  • 1 0
 @lkubica:
I guess that reinforces my point that when you can (or cant) shift isn't the reason gearboxes don't sell, it's only a minor issue.
  • 4 0
 @Kmccann137: Also less likely to need fixing in the woods...
  • 3 1
 @Kmccann137: it doesn’t break you nicampoo.
  • 4 0
 @DC1988: sounds promising. I looked at getting a Rohloff hub a few years ago but it was so expensive. If the tech works though it could be the first step to a proper mainstream 'gearbox', and that excites me a lot.
  • 2 0
 @alex16trail: Story of my life!
  • 7 1
 @Kmccann137: You aren't fixing a broken RD in the wood either.
  • 2 0
 @browner:

Complicated engineering waffle” - so good!!!!
  • 18 0
 I've now taken insufficient time to look at the information on this product's website and found that I don't understand how it works.

That in turn has made me feel foolish and afraid of this advance, so I shall now be taking a passionate anti-gearbox stance going forward until a celebrity (/Levy) tells me to do otherwise.
  • 1 0
 @DC1988: Shimano alfine
  • 31 0
 We attempted to install one of these for a customer on a Yeti SB5c about a year ago. While the concept is super cool, actually making it work at least in a full suspension application was pretty dang difficult, so much so that we ended up reinstalling their X01 Eagle after about two months. Our two most limiting factors were how the brake side arm and hydraulic dock interfaces with the frame, and that at least on the version we installed, the thru axle preload is what ultimately sealed the hydraulic shift mechanism to the drive side of the hub.

The brake side hub arm and the hydraulic dock needed to be modified to actually mount within the frame appropriately, and while this is explained in their technical documents it does bear mentioning that Horst Link bikes or bikes with wide and limiting chainstay or seatstay pivots would likely not be easily compatible with this design especially since this Yeti with a glorified single pivot presented clearance issues.

I have yet to read the updated tech docs, but its also noteworthy that the hydraulic interface was sealed via axle preload pressure on the version we installed. This caused two issues, one was that if the axle wasn’t extremely tight, shifting was inconsistent as you’d get pressure loss in the form of leaks. The other was changing tires, or installing a tube in a cut tire would almost always compromise our bleed meaning shifting was not ideal.

To be clear, this was our only experience with the hub and though our service department is quite highly esteemed (we get a fair amount of mail in work from other shops and do any suspension work except for dumb Brain or Cannondale junk in house), we very well might have made a mistake in installing the hub. The concept is awesome, especially as shifting under moderate load was actually quite smooth, but not yet executed in a way that I could recommend except for a handful of high clearance sliding dropout hardtail frames. Factor in the need for a highly tensioned chain tensioner for full squish rigs and you may as well toss a derailleur group on. Got to applaud Kindernay though, the concept was pretty cool to work on.
  • 5 0
 It all comes down to one word: Cost
- Cost of the part itself
- cost of the replacement part from wear and tear
- cost of maintenance

The other factors are:
- availability from OEM

Anyone can talk about gearboxes, other planetary gears, and other types of shifting all they want, if the cost and availability are not there to meet the masses, it's moot. The article says that derailleurs are not reliable, but it is. It's simple, readily available, and can be cheap to replace. However, some manufacturers have made it their missions to make gear shifting with derailleurs incompatible with older generations and making their parts increasingly expensive than what it needs to be.
  • 1 4
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: I'm not? Pretty sure I can just swap a new f'ing RD if I was so inclined to have one in my pack.
  • 6 1
 @Kmccann137: Such a ridiculous statement.
  • 4 0
 @TheOriginalTwoTone: agreed, who’s carrying a spare mech?

But I have successfully bent and cable tied a broken mech back into shape well enough to get home on 2 occasions and on one occasion even got one good enough to do the Whole Enchilada after wrecking it about a quarter of the way down. That last one might have literally saved my life, half a litre of water would not have been enough to hike back to Moab with

That said on another dozen occasions I had to coast or singlespeed it back to base, but at least SS is an option
  • 3 1
 @rudymedea: How many?!!!?.... 37yr of mountain biking and I've only on broken one rear mech (including XC and DH racing).
  • 2 0
 @rudymedea: LOL, If you're breaking that many derailleurs, I'm sure you're gonna break a hub gear and a pinion in no time.

I've ridden derailleur geared bikes since 1977 and I've only had one broken derailleur (and another one stolen). That broken derailleur was caused by a rusted chain jamming the derailleur cage into the rear wheel spokes after riding it in heavily salted streets in the winter (funny thing was I had washed and regreased my chain and drivetrain the previous night). All my mountain biking - in thick mud, rocks, roots, thick brushes, and even hitting trees - never broken any derailleurs. Had clutch slip problems - fixed either by popping in another Shimano clutch mechanism or by properly greasing the clutch with proper lubrication.

I have to say though, the rear derailleurs made by Shimano back in the late 80's and 90's, notably the LX and XT, were solid and worked beautifully across 7-9 speed cassettes. I still use those for either commuting and another on my classic hardtail as a backup. Just flawless with the old thumb shifters that can go up and down 7 shifts all at once!
  • 1 0
 @CSharp @NZRalphy

Yep I’m ridiculously unlucky with mechs, I’ll admit 3-4 of those where my bad for poor shifting or mech setup and one was a case (Oakley roadgap on SuperMorzine) so bad my wheel folded so much it took the mech with it but apart from that it’s all rock strikes and crashes

All 10-11 speed Shimano, the older stuff was rock solid. Or maybe I was just a pussy back then Smile
  • 36 0
 All the reviews and armchair critics complain about gearbox weight and drag/friction. I have a ZERODE Katipo with Pinion and Gates belt (15.9kg/35lbs); a Yeti SB5C with mixed SRAM XX1 and Shimano Di2 (12kg/26.4lbs); and a new Specialized Stumpjumper with X01AXS (12.6kg/27.6lbs). And I’m no powerhouse; 178cm/5’10” and 63kg/139lbs and 60+yrs old. If I can average anywhere near 180Watts it’s a bloody good day out!
But for the rough hilly terrain I ride, the differences between these bikes are much more related to geometry and suspension travel than weight or drag. It is the ZERODE that gets by far the most use as it never needs adjustment or drivetrain maintenance, and can deal with the gnarliest trails without worrying about dropping chains or bending or losing derailleurs. Changing up or down is instant once you learn to time changes to the top of your pedal stroke; not unlike matching revs when driving a car with a manual gearbox and equally satisfying. A gearbox is brilliant and certainly the way of the future. Sure, less weight and more efficiency would be ideal. But for now, the bomb-proof function and ability to change multiple gears while pedalling, coasting or standing still outweigh the minor disadvantages. And rear suspension behaviour is also much improved without a 400gm cassette and 300gm derailleur hanging off the rear triangle.
  • 2 0
 That's good to hear a direct comparison, I really want to get a Zerode for my next bike but as no-one seems to sell them second hand I'm priced out for now. Must be a good sign of owner satisfaction though given how many I regularly spot on a weekend in Rotorua!
  • 1 1
 I'd also like to coment, once mud is introduced to the derailleur transmission, there is a lot more drag, more than gearbox option. Now that the next big thing in MTB is the gearbox, there will be a lot of innovation and people making refinements to match expetations.
  • 2 0
 Nice to know and thanks for a true prospective.
  • 23 0
 Too heavy IMO, the main advantage I see from gearboxes is the unsprung mass and this one makes things worse rhan conventional. Additionally it is more expensive than conventional and has specific disc bolt pattern so this is a hard pass as is.
But maybe an interesting base to integrate in a frame like the original Zerode, Lahar, GT or Nicolaï ? Since you can take the GB unit out of the shell it could be easier to integrate.
  • 8 0
 Nicolai used to mount Rohloff hubs inside their frames before they got Pinion. Some brands like GT and Brooklyn Machine Works also used Shimano Nexus hubs inside their frames. It would be great if at least some companies would try this as a budget option again. Especially as high pivot bikes have become more popular in recent years. Geared hubs have come a long way and I understand the Alfine 8sp hubs are already a whole lot better than Nexus 8sp (which I thought was pretty good already compared to Nexus 7sp). The advantage is that a Pinion/Effigear has an integrated bb which implies that the mount (gearbox to frame) is much more demanding than if you have the bb welded to the frame and just have a chain running to the bb. Another plus is that the Shimano 8sp geared hubs can work with a trigger shifter.

All that said, Hayes group once bought the PeteSpeed patent from B1 (BeOne) but never did anything with it. Not sure why. The construction (derailleur in a box, similar to what Honda used) is so simple that I expect it to be cheaper than both Pinion and Effigear. If Hayes group can offer gearing, they could compete right up against SRAM in the OEM market.
  • 6 0
 Good point that it could be integrated into a frame Zerode-stye. We don't know how much the VII costs as it's OEM only but it will surely cost a lot more than Deore 12 speed!
  • 8 0
 For sure you want that weight elsewhere but I don't want a derailleur too and cant wait to get rid of it.. I would choose even the standard hub variant despite the fact that I am using xx1 weight. If this would be available soon I will fit that to my 161. I snapped my AXS yesterday so the pain is real. I am really not impressed by the AXS...
  • 7 0
 Yeah 100%, I'm all for gearboxs but you're only at a loss if you have them in the hub.
Next time you're making a coffee and you go to grab the milk, hold it and an arms length and shake it, you'll notice how hard it it versus if you were holding it close.
More unsprung mass makes for a frothy coffee but less traction and worse handling.
  • 3 4
 @Serpentras: From a reliable source (a message at the top of the PB frontpage) I have been informed that the AXS rear mech could protect itself, so your rear mech hasn't snapped. Where did you gather that information? It could be fake news. Maybe it only needs another booster shot. Some claim it also helps against transmission, which may be a double win as that is what drivetrains are notorious for.
  • 1 0
 @seb-stott: Working on my own gear box, but wonder about bring products to market when making a sealed chain drive that was blocked, due to making chains last at least 3 times longer
Which means how much built in obsolescence current derailleurs have?


worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=GB&NR=2434565&KC=&FT=E&locale=en_EP
  • 2 0
 @Shimanosaint0097: Yes low unsprung weight is better for everyone!
But you got to wonder about how e- bikes will develop!
Especially with a product like this & a sealed chain drive?
  • 2 0
 @Shimanosaint0097: Another possible disadvantage with having all that mass in the rear wheel is a greater chance of punctures. A couple of riding buddies tried using Rohloff hubs a few years back but both returned to normal derailleurs for that reason.
  • 1 0
 @Pablo16v: Punctures & dead suspension feel is real!
Could a downhill scooter win a world cup?
On a track with little pedaling, YES 100%?
  • 2 0
 @vinay: Brooklyn Machine Works, with their twin chain jackshaft Racelinks (and SR models etc), didn’t use a hub gear - they used conventional rear mechs.
But your point is spot on, quite a few brands have played around with an integrated Nexus (or later Alfine) as part of the frame design. I always liked Zerode’s original approach, though that was a very neat solution.
  • 2 0
 @vinay: i have had nexus hubs, both 7 and 8 gears, the 8 gears was a red band version which was similar to alfine at the time. I have now the latest alfine 8 gears on my commuter which is supposed to cope with more torque. It doesn't, it skips gears like the nexus did. On the other hand the nexus 7 never skipped a gear...
  • 1 0
 @vinay: dude, my AXS snapped the whole 6mm thick rivet to hold one of the parallelogram arms in place. A few smaller parts also fall off.
The pictures I made are circulating the web now and many said its the first time they saw a snapped AXS.
My LBS was surprised too.

Therefore I call the disengage function just a marketing gimmick because all my 6 damaged GX drivetrains did not snap and I could limp back and some could be ridden again with a bit of a smack.
  • 2 0
 @corinthian: Yeah I stand corrected, I remembered that wrong about the BMW.

@Serpentras: Conventional mechanical rear mechs don't need the protection because the the mech is already free to move inwards in case of impact. AXS works with a servo instead of a cable so it doesn't have that freedom so they needed the protection system to fix the issue it introduced. Never would have expected they would market it as a feature. The first generation Shimano Saint (2004) was rapid rise which implies the cable pulls the mech outwards. So the mech back then also had that protection system. In 2007 they went back to top normal (even though the mech indeed looked similar and they only introduced a real new generation in 200Cool and they could forego the protection system. Not sure about Hone 2005. Maybe that rear mech had the protection too. But either way, calling these features is a stretch. They are merely workarounds for self-induced problems.
  • 16 3
 "...derailleurs are finicky, vulnerable and unreliable". I don't get it. I'm riding SRAM X01 since 2006 and never was thinking about trying anything else. So happy with this reliable product. Got a friend with Pinion gearbox and IMHO it's just an expensive toy which also needs maintenance. Now this thing that needs bleeding? Or worst case not working under cold temperatures like the Reverb dropper?
  • 3 0
 I would say this, you need to ride the terrain to complain about derailleur malfunctions. If your mostly riding around Frankfurt I don't think you have any problems and if you stay in German parks it will be the same. Get to the French parks and you will run into problems sooner or later. The x01 is considerable stronger then the GX though. A friend of mine who is riding even more then my but riding the same stuff and mostly same speed have never done anything to his last eagle x01 since he got it 2017. I have broken at least 6GX and 2SLX in that time. Yesterday I have split my AXS but there was actually nothing in sight so I dunno, Monday product.
  • 7 0
 @Serpentras: I agree. It's maybe something to do with riding style too. The guy I rode most with one summer in Morzine trashed 3 rear mechs whereas mine were fine. Same trails, roughly the same speed, three rear mechs seems like too much for just bad luck. Maybe it has something to do with how good your brain is at logging where the rocks are when travelling at speed and then subconsciously avoiding them
  • 13 0
 I like this, however since of the secondary advantages of a g.box is that the weight comes of the back wheel and aids suspension performance. Perhaps a version of this would be made to be mounted in the frame?
  • 4 0
 Agreed. (and @balgaroth). Wider hubs too. I wouldn't bother with gearboxes unless the gearbox is in the frame. I also like the seven speed idea. I'd take less weight and friction and simplicity over smaller ratio gaps.
  • 1 0
 Yeah but this particular one is wheel mounted and as the article says the suspension suffers
  • 1 0
 Zerode g1/2 lives again!
  • 12 0
 Keep it up! The new gearbox for mtb is coming. Your efforts are helping us.
  • 1 23
flag DoubleCrownAddict (Sep 2, 2021 at 1:55) (Below Threshold)
 Your welcome, I'm changing the industry with blogging.
  • 3 0
 @DoubleCrownAddict: sit down, you of all people aren't doing anything.
  • 10 0
 This definitely looks like an E-bike product. Weight won’t matter - drag won’t matter and it will allow you to chew out cheap chains and sprockets instead of expensive SRAM 12 speed stuff.
  • 6 0
 For all the closet gearbox fans who have come into the light for this article. There has been plenty of bike gearboxes over the years yet they haven’t taken over. Why is that?
  • 3 0
 They look good on paper but they come with too big price premium. Probably it is the same thing as with our cars. We drool over sports models yet buy something more everyday practical and reliable.
  • 2 0
 Zerode comes to mind, but they don't make bikes 29ers for shorties and being a small company from NZ, their distribution network is non-existent. If any of the big brands with worldwide distribution implemented it, you can bet people will buy it and gearbox bikes will be a more common sight. I would have bought a Zerode Katipo a long time ago if they offered a medium.
  • 7 0
 They are expensive. They are inefficient. If you want the gearbox built into the frame and not the hub, there are only a few boutique brands making them. The gearbox hubs put all the weight in the wrong place (I know from experience having owned a Rohloff hub for two years. It's cool to shift standing still, but I prefer the ability to shift under load, which you absolutely cannot do with one of these. And the funky twist shifters that most of these things use. I would also add that at least from my experience 'hub engagement' is not very tight. Also, the reliability thing wasn't there at least for me. The hub seemed to break in, but then I started getting occasional skips under power (not when shifting, and not in 'weird' spot between 7 & 8 gears), and then it barfed up its oil bath on my basement floor. After sending it back and getting it replaced, I sold it and went to a mid-tier Shimano derailleur system and I felt like my bike turned into a rocket ship (I guess a lot of the break-in was just me getting used to the drag). Plus on a suspension bike, you need a tensioner, and the Rohloff tensions at least would get badly affected by mud (would seize up and the chain would go slack and fall off the cog). I can see where, in some extreme conditions, or for some people that just cannot ride w/out avoiding derailleur strikes, that a Pinion-basked gearbox bike might be a good option and worth the cost, efficiency, weight, and no-shifting under load sacrifices, but for the vast majority of riders it is not worth it as standard drivetrains are perfectly acceptable for durability and reliability and blow the gearbox away at everything else.
  • 6 0
 In 25yrs they will look at the bikes we ride now and wonder how we ever even rode them down the mountain.
  • 17 0
 Or you could just ask Minnaar how he ride down a mountain 25yrs ago Smile
  • 9 0
 We do that now with 2.5 year old bikes tbh
  • 4 0
 Pretty much the same way we do now. Point them in the direction you want to go, avoid trees. Brakes to slow Pedal to go.
  • 3 0
 These are on their site for 999€ but they're backordered ~8 weeks. I didn't see anything about it being OEM only on the checkout page.

I've been considering ordering one of these for a hardtail build. I like the supposed longevity, lower maintenance, and rear end aesthetics. However, I have some hydra wheels and a Shimano 12s drivetrain that are still in good shape... I think it's a lot of investment and I'm a little hesitant that there isn't much out there as far as reviews/ user reports with kindernay's xiv IGH that came out a few years ago.

Some other points I didn't see mentioned.

The VII are compatible with normal 6b rotors unlike the XIV which need their own proprietary 7 bolt rotors.

24 pts of engagement
  • 5 1
 OK, removing the wheel to change a tyre or work on the bike or stuff bikes in the back of a veheicle, with hydraulic hoses attached?
  • 1 0
 The hydraulics stay on the bike.
  • 1 0
 @baronKanon: so.. the hyraulic mechanism at the hub end seperates from the hub?
  • 2 0
 Swap cage could be new dropper post in terms of progress , also good in these days when it's hard to find parts available, having one hub for few wheelsets is great idea. Thumbs up. Now please move the mass to cranks area and we have a deal soon
  • 2 0
 Being fed up with $500 cassette and $100 chain that don’t even last one season and occasional bent derailleur ; I will certainly give this hub a try. Fragility and exposure to crud are in my mind a fatal flaw fo the current derailleur system.
  • 1 0
 2 fatal flaw you're actually doing:
1) buying a SRAM eagle cassette (and drivetrain)
2) riding in mud deeper than your tires

Most derailleur these days are recessed below the rear hanger so that if you fall or ride through thick vegetation, the derailleur and cage are not going to be take the brunt of the forces. Also using the wet lube has got to be one of the grossest things as it attracts mud and dirt like a magnet and then it gunks up so bad!
  • 2 0
 I've never understood why gearbox systems tend to need two 'connections' between the hub and the shifter. Particularly with hydrolics, why can't this just be one hose with a spring on the hub end to pull back when needed (as a mech works)?
  • 2 0
 I feel like a perfectly acceptable* gearbox could be available in short order if someone would really throw money at getting it done. It would need to be worked on by all sorts of engineers, not just a small group with a single idea. Because of the "many engineers" need, it would have to be some big financial prize to tempt investment in a solution.

*Grip shift is not acceptable.
*5:1 gear range is minimum acceptable, though 6:1 would be great.
*I realize that derailleur/chain levels of efficiency won't be reached, but close would be acceptable.

The problem is that the current system is actually really good in many ways, so there is only a small drive for a new design.
  • 5 0
 If this could be mounted at the bb...
  • 1 0
 Swap cage is interesting, though I suspect the makers purpose is for easier repairs or replacement in the field. It's only simple tools to swap out when you are in the middle of nowhere but you can get a hub posted to you, no need to build the whole wheel. This concept is possibly useful for normal hubs and usual use too.
  • 2 1
 Looks interesting. For me the key thing would be internal drag. No mention of this?

The Swap cage is clever, and a big deal. Being able to run multiple wheelsets either on the same bike or swap the gearbox hub between bikes (even if that means moving the shifter lever and housing as well) between e.g. home and alpine bikes, or summer and winter bike is nice.
  • 5 0
 Why does everyone want to get rid of derailleurs Frown
  • 5 0
 You guys are the real MVPs. You understood that the people don't want expensive wireless derailleurs and cassettes with one more gear and another new mounting standard. The people want cheap, robust and functional wide range drivetrains and you guys delivered. Keep up the good work!
  • 1 1
 It's more practical than getting rid of sticks and rocks.
  • 1 0
 No mate... there are 20x here saying how cool it would be, and there aye 50,000,000 others that don't give a shit.
  • 1 0
 So, is this CO new, or do I just not get out much, cuzz riding MTB since 1993, this is the very first I've heard of Kindernay.

Interesting, but I see nothing on their website about using with Gates Carbon Drive, or belts at all? And no search function or FAQ...........
  • 1 0
 Just found a couple write-up on Kindernay, may be some more in depth info in these......

www.cyclingabout.com/kindernay-vii-gearbox-hub

www.cyclingabout.com/kindernay-xiv-hub-14-speed-internally-geared-hub
  • 1 0
 Considering how the added weight of a gearbox changes handling, I'd rather that gearbox between my feet than on the back end of the bike.

Perhaps these folks could build an equally well designed frame mounted gearbox?

Geared hubs are a work around, best suited for touring where the bike is loaded with panniers and the added weight on the rear wheel doesn't make as much difference.
  • 1 0
 I would say commuter bikes / city bikes / hardballs could benefit from this solution, for the MTB and complex suspension design it will not be widespread;

Even e-bikes use standard drivetrain instead BB area, however this is a perfect candidates for drivetrain revolution
  • 1 0
 If it shifts well it sounds pretty good for an e-bike.

Still, pretty soon there will be transmissions attached to the motor on an e-bike and that would seem to make the most sense.

What ever would they call a 2 wheeled vehicle with a motor and transmission?
  • 5 0
 That shifter is sweet !
  • 2 0
 Heavier expensier than Deore - stop

142 & 148 no 157 -stop

Needs chain device like Rd - stop

7speed if 600€ = ok - stop
  • 1 0
 I wonder if Pinion or someone can get on this seamless gearbox train to solve the shifting under load issues?

www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/ducati-seamless-shift-transmission
  • 2 0
 ISCG05 mounted chain tensioner? needing to mount a spring tensioner to the rear mech mount seems like undoing half of your good work...
  • 2 0
 I never understood gearboxes until I had to ride a descent chainless. My bike has never felt so good, and I've been chasing that ever since. Sign me up.
  • 2 0
 You're mixing up things, being chainless has to do with separating the drivetrain from the suspension, using a gearbox or geared hub doesn't provide that separation. A high pivot is a way to separate the two.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: I was under the impression that removing the forces tugging on a derailleur achieves close to the same feeling? Of course I may be completely misinformed.

Or maybe I'm thinking of reducing the weight on the rear wheel. OR I just have no idea what I'm talking about.
  • 1 0
 @nurseben: or ochain spider
  • 1 0
 It seems interesting on paper, but in reality it's an unproven 1250€ drivetrain, that will most likely not provide any noticeable functional advantage over a 250€ Shimano Deore M6100 system. No thanks.
  • 1 1
 But then you’d still need a derailleur to act as a chain tensioner for bikes with full susoension. So when comparing this to derailleur systems one still needs to account for the weight of the tensioner, making the difference in unsprung weight more in the 500g+ range than 350g.
  • 3 0
 7 gears with good range sounds ideal.
  • 1 0
 The comparison to Deore 12sp is a bit unfair as this hub has a smaller gear range. What's the weight of the 10-42 11sp cassette?
  • 2 0
 So when is PB getting one of these to ride around and review!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • 2 0
 You add the weight of a gear cable to the derailleur system but not the TWO hoses and fluid to the gearbox?
  • 2 0
 Singlespeed is all you need... we've been "ditching the derailleur" successfully since the beginning of bikes!
  • 1 0
 Just waiting for the CVT enviolo HUB to be dumped on a homemade dh frame with a paradox kenetics setup. That'll be interesting.
  • 4 6
 Can't believe how long it's taken to develop the gearbox. The industry has spend decades refining an antique system of changing gears yet the gear box is clearly the way to go. Stop messing around with crappy derailleurs and get this sorted.
  • 8 1
 Gearboxes with toothed cogs are inherently higher friction than chains and sprockets, and efficiency matters when you have as little power as a human. All the R&D in the world will not change the fundamental laws of physics.
  • 1 4
 @threehats: It will still be better than crappy derailleurs. Would rather have a bit more friction than a ripped off derailleur and unable to ride
  • 4 1
 @MattP76: then buy nicolai with pinion gearbox or zerode. It is great to have choices
  • 4 0
 you another dca or something
  • 1 3
 @sxy-slo: Yes choices are out there but my point is that the gearbox hasn't been refined and should have been done years ago rather than persistent refinement of an antique system.
  • 2 0
 @MattP76: 'antique' doesn't mean bad. The simplicity and efficiency of a standard drivetrain is tough to beat for the majority of riders and riding situations. And efficiency matters a lot to most riders, especially if they don't have reliability or maintenance issues w/current systems (I don't have any). I have ridden a Rohloff hub'd mountain bike (not just once, for two years on my own ride) and would never, ever go back. I didn't even find it more reliable, as it had issues, but even if it hadn't, it wouldn't have been worth it. The one system that looks interesting to me is the one Shimano just patented. Uses chains and cogs instead of gears, similar to the old Honda DH race bike. Might be interesting to see how efficient they can make it. But still, kind of tough to see the point of it.
  • 1 0
 @shawndashf1: I think over next couple of years it will be interesting to see how it develops. It should have been done years ago. If it had been developed and refined why may now have a nice compact, lightweight, relatively friction free gearbox inside a rear hub. It's been far too long coming.
  • 2 0
 When are we going to see drum brakes?
  • 2 0
 "derailleurs are finicky, vulnerable and unreliable"

Really?
  • 1 2
 My 2018 Levo has a motor magnet fixed to the rear standard 6 bolt rotor, so this is not compatible? Many other ebikes with this magnet?
  • 2 1
 Superglue. Maybe go Singlespeed, the motor will drag you up the hill anyway. You are welcome.
  • 3 1
 Bleed interval?
  • 2 0
 Yeah, can someone take a stab at that?
  • 6 6
 You complain this is too heavy, but how many of you out there are rocking Ebikes regardless of their weight......
  • 1 2
 You have a pedal kart and a car. Which one would you rather take an anvil to the tip in?
  • 1 0
 I wouldn't mind some drawings of how that works.
  • 1 0
 I would love to try this... can we have a proper review please?
  • 1 1
 Yep it will be behind the paywall
  • 2 1
 7 bolt rotor and not even centrelock .....im out
  • 3 1
 My thoughts exactly, all 7 of those bolts could fail whilst out on a ride - centrelock needed
  • 1 0
 Not yet the Hub Porn we would like to see
  • 1 0
 "It costs €1,249.92"
  • 3 0
 too bad, I refuse to pay more than 1223.87 for a gearing system
  • 1 0
 Lost me at hydraulic
  • 2 4
 *Compatibility.
Grammar's hard, as PB articles tend to demonstrate, but us dumb bikers don't even deserve a spellcheck?

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