Liv's 2023 Intrigue LT is Their Most Aggressive Bike Yet

Jan 24, 2023
by Matt Beer  

Liv, Giant’s women-specific counterpart, has launched the all new Intrigue LT with 150mm of rear wheel travel, making it their most aggressive bike in the lineup. The ALUXX SL-Grade aluminum frame features a downtube storage compartment and a 3-position flip-chip, like the recently revised Reign.

Liv has configured the XS and S sizes to run exclusively on mixed wheels and use the same geometry as the M and L frames which come stock with dual 29” wheels. The only difference is that the two larger sizes have the option to use the smaller rear wheel.

Two Intrigue LT models range from roughly €3,399 to €,3999, although pricing is still being finalized for some European regions. Only the $2,800 USD base model will be available in the United States.

Liv Intrigue LT Details
• Wheel size: Mixed - XS, S / 29" M, L
• Aluminum frame
• Travel: 150mm / 160mm fork
• 65.1° head angle (mid setting)
• 77.6° seat angle (mid setting)
• Chainstay length: 442mm
• 3-position flip-chip
• Downtube storage compartment
• Sizes: XS, S, M, L
• Price: €3,399 - 3,999 / $2,800 USD (LT 2)
liv-cycling.com




Geometry

In the middle setting, the 160mm fork sits moderately at 65.1 degrees and the seat tube is a suitably steep 77.3 degrees. Changing the position of the flip-chip will alter the angles by roughly 0.4 degrees and position the BB 5mm higher or lower.

Since the Intrigue LT uses the same 3-position flip-chip as the Reign, the angles will be similarly 0.8 degrees slacker with 27.5" rear wheel rather than a 29". The best option for running the small rear wheel will be to place it in the high setting, which still makes the geometry more aggressive than the low setting with a 29" rear wheel. Keep in mind, the mixed wheels are only an option for the M and L frames.

As for the frame reach measurements, those begin at 402 for the XS, and move up to 417 442, and 462 for the L. The chainstays of the bike measures 442mm for all sizes, making the two smaller frames slightly disproportionate compared to the reach.


Specs

Each frame uses a Fox Float DPS and quite a few of Giant’s own components, like the Contact dropper post, handlebar, stem, and wheels. Both models use Liv’s Sylvia saddles and Maxxis 3C MaxxTerra Minion DHF and Dissector tires with EXO casings. There’s also the inclusion of an MRP AMg chain guide for extra security.

What differs between the Intrigue LT 1 and 2 is primarily the fork and drivetrain. The LT 2 comes with a RockShox 35 Gold RL fork and the higher-end LT 1 uses a Fox 36 with a GRIP damper. You’ll also get a mix of Shimano SLX and Deore-level shifting components on the LT 1 versus SRAM SX, but both 12-speed drivetrains feature at least a 500% gear range.

Liv Intrigue LT 1 - 3,999 EUR / $4,299 CAD / N/A in USA
Liv Intrigue LT 2 - 3,399 EUR / $3,999 CAD / 2,800 USD



169 Comments

  • 102 11
 Does anyone know if you'll invalidate the warranty by fixing your own punctures or maybe changing your own brake pads without taking it to an authorised Giant dealer? Asking for a friend.
  • 12 2
 That didn’t take long
  • 17 0
 what's the backstory to this comment?
  • 29 3
 @SATN-XC: basically in the UK giants warranty seems to be an utter pile of shit
  • 19 1
 @mmcengineer: lol, well that sucks. Just had Giant do a full frame replacement on my Anthem w/o any issues...funny you mention UK though b/c Giant sent me a European variant of my frame Blue/Orange instead of the all Black we got her in the States.
  • 16 2
 @SATN-XC: Yeah same - have never had or seen an issue with Giant Warranty
  • 8 1
 @SATN-XC: people have been denied frame warranty for not having the bike serviced by a authorized dealer.
  • 16 0
 @jeremy3220: eh, I think there is more to that though. My Anthem had been serviced by a non-Giant dealer for over a year and there was nothing stock on the bike except handlebars and suspension/fork. The non-Giant dealer noticed a crack in my top tube during a fork service and told me to take it to a Giant dealer to handle the warranty. Took it to the Giant dealer (not even the same one I bought my bike from) and they handled the warranty from there. Absolutely no issues processing the warranty (though it took a while for the fame to be in stock). Only thing Giant asked for was proof of purchase, which my original dealer simply emailed them.
  • 2 2
 @SATN-XC: You're not in the UK though right?
  • 7 0
 @stevede: thanks, this was shared with me by @mmcengineer. Just think there's more to the story b/c I had no issue and I know a few friends who've done the same and they've had no issue. Unless its a UK specific warranty clause..as @jeremy3220 notes.
  • 6 0
 @SATN-XC: not really. First story was that someone stripped a cracked Trance as the shop wanted to charge labour, postage, etc and he got the big “not serviced by authorised dealer” and it goes downhill from there. Want to do a lowers service or send your fork off to a suspension place for work? You’ll be needing (officially, and confirmed by Giant) a Giant dealer to remove and refit the fork. The MD for Giant U.K. then popped up and made things even worse by contradicting is own warranty terms and customer service dept. I believe the word “clusterf*ck” is the correct term
  • 12 3
 Any bike company that writes this in their warranty and enforces it is a company you should not buy a bike from:

The above warranty, or any implied warranty, does not cover:
Bicycles serviced by a non Authorised Giant Dealer.
  • 3 0
 @mashrv1: lol, well that's f**k'd both on the shop end and Giant UK's end. Shop I went to didn't care who did the labor to swap the frame. They said if I did it, I just needed to bring the old frame back so they could provide evidence to Giant that it was destroyed.
  • 4 1
 @SATN-XC: so many different aspects to this, all more daft than the next. Are shops getting screwed over and not getting covered for warranty issues (usually a credit note from the manufacturer) or are some shops double dipping and getting the credit + money from the public.
Singletrack are putting a warranty article together that should appear tomorrow morning
  • 4 3
 IIRC in talking to a friend that worked for LBS that was an authorized giant dealer is that when it comes to warranty, Giant is actually generally the best out of the big brands, but leaves the warranty determination to the shop - i.e. the shop looks at the damage, determines if its warranty worthy (in all but extreme cases this will be yes), and then you get a replacement.

Other brands will make the shop do the stripdown, fill out a report and send it to the manufacturer who will do the determination/decision.

So it makes sense that Giant will want the authorized shop to do the stripdown.

That being said, if you actually want quality, always buy the frame and parts including the frame independently, and consider support smaller brands that actually aim to make quality product rather than pump out frames in masses.
  • 2 1
 @mashrv1: Giant wasn't going to cover the shop's labor costs to rebuild the bike, I would have to pay the shop for the labor (which I did). I think this is standard across most brands. However, the shop said if they did not present Giant evidence that the frame was destroyed, the shop would be on the hook for the frame cost.
  • 8 3
 @SATN-XC:
Correct - Giant do not credit shops for labour for doing ANY warranty work.
As for the frame, the shop pays for the warranty frame, then a credit is applied to their account when Giant receive evidence of the destroyed frame.

There are very few companies out there providing labour credits for warranty items - Specialized is one of them however. As much as many people dislike their business tactics, their warranty is rock solid and extremely easy to deal with on a dealer level. We're rarely if ever out of pocket, and that means we can pass those savings onto our customers.
  • 5 3
 @ayatollah-of-sausagerollah: Giant warrantied a frame purchased in New Caledonia (a literal island by Australia) with a written receipt for a 2008 ATX that was never sold in North America. They said they shouldn't have but they had one sitting around so they sent it over anyway.

They also warrantied any Ebike batteries and motors without question. I've also warrantied carbon frames and wheels without issue. They've been the best to deal with. I worked at a Giant dealer for a few years.
  • 4 0
 @8a71b4: Anecdotal, but I warrantied a rear triangle last year, it was ridiculously easy at the dealer. Bike was 5 years old and beat too, Giant has lifetime warranty.

Did not have the same experience with broken frames from a few other manufacturer over the years. Always hoops to jump though. Getting Specialized to warranty last month was like a full time job.
  • 4 2
 @notthatfast: Yup. I cracked 3 Spesh frames.
For two of my issues they sent me brand new frames ( even recommended that if I can wait a month they'd send me an updated frame which was a MAJOR revision of that bike model).
For my third and most recent I cracked a chain stay on my Kevevo SL. They sent a new rear triangle and I was back riding within 10 days and it cost me $100.00

Say what you want but they make great bikes and their warranty in awesome.
  • 5 0
 I have a carbon Giant road bike. Cracked the frame (probably from doing the seat collar too tight). It had never seen the inside of a shop since purchase. Replaced with no issue. Giant were amazing. Think turn around was a week.
My mate had a Trance with carbon wheels and they warranted those as well after a bad landing at BPW.
So real world, Giant have a very good warranty customer service
  • 2 1
 This is great advertisment for GIANT, keep it going so the guy gets some leverage!
  • 1 7
flag JohSch (Jan 25, 2023 at 5:38) (Below Threshold)
 So Giants are more expensive now, still have the same 2,2kg heavy wheels. Now combined with poor forks, brakes and drive trains. Their availability in Germany is poor and the British aftersales-service is a nightmare. Hm...
  • 1 2
 @JohSch: dude they come with fab spec. I know many people who have brought giants just for the spec then swapped the frame for a boutique one
  • 2 0
 @Larkey1: up until 2019-2020 maybe. Now no more.
  • 4 0
 @notthatfast: weird. anytime ive had to do warranty with giant theyve paid the shop labour
  • 5 5
 @ayatollah-of-sausagerollah: seems like people can just make up whatever they want and post it on here. Here's a clear statement from Giant. singletrackworld.com/2023/01/can-working-on-your-bike-void-the-warranty
  • 5 5
 @OzarkBike: fantastic, thank you for sharing.
To sum it up for everyone, Giant says servicing bike yourself or through a non-Giant dealer will not void the warranty. If said service is not done properly and the improper installation causes the damage, then there could be issues getting the warranty covered.

long and short of it, don't be a dick to the Giant dealer and they'll likely cover your ass on the warranty claim.
  • 1 0
 @FrsknSld:
You work at a shop?
If not I’d say your shop is maybe just giving you a break because they definitely don’t give labour credits
  • 4 0
 @notthatfast: i do the warranty claims at my shop. have definitely been offered labour credit
  • 6 2
 @OzarkBike: it’s a clear statement but also contradicts what their own staff have been saying. Have a look at the screenshots in the comments below the article.
Worth noting the STW is pretty strict in its moderation. If the stuff being said wasn’t real it would have been removed already
  • 3 1
 @OzarkBike: Yes you seem to have completely missed the fact that there’s a 14 or 15 page section within which Giant posted one thing and then contradicted themselves a few days later and then again today.
  • 2 1
 @mashrv1: Indeed what a clueless melt. GO AND READ THEIR ORIGINAL THREAD
  • 1 0
 @Ryan2949: wooo redo what has it got to do with me ?
  • 2 0
 Warranty policy depends on legal rules in each country. After that, brand warranty set the comercial brand conditions for life warranty frames for example.
  • 3 0
 @notthatfast: Depends on the contry. Giant pay labour for warranty in some countries...Giant France pay for it.
  • 2 0
 @notthatfast: I own a shop, been a Giant dealer for 15 years. They will issue a labor credit any time I request one.
  • 2 0
 @SATN-XC: From someone who works at a Giant Dealer - If you took the frame back to the shop it was bought from, your labour costs would have been covered
  • 27 5
 Downtube storage for snacks only cos you void your warranty by working on your own bike.
  • 47 2
 You need an authorised dealer to fit and remove the snacks for you.
  • 8 0
 What if I removed the reflectors without using an authorized dealer?
  • 17 0
 i would ride this bike as a guy, it looks sick
  • 1 0
 I'm using my ex wife's Intrigue e+ and it travels like a dream
  • 22 10
 Are you allowed to adjust your bars or brake levers or change your seatpost height without invalidating the warranty?
  • 13 0
 I don’t think anyone outside the uk fishpond will even know what you are talking about
  • 3 0
 @mmcengineer: going to need the back story on this
  • 1 4
 @threehats What are you on about? If you're warranty claims are as vague as your PB comments then I'm starting to see where you might have an issue.
  • 6 0
 @Larkey1: Not me, some very shady warranty claim avoidance by Giant UK;

singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/warranty-denied-as-i-stripped-the-bike-down
  • 6 0
 @SATN-XC: From an email sent to a UK Giant owner with a cracked frame:

“Under the exclusions section of the Giant UK warranty policy, it states that a bicycle serviced by a non-Giant retailer has no warranty.”

I’m fairly certain that this warranty exclusion wouldn’t withstand scrutiny under UK law but until they behave reasonably (or are forced to by the legal system) I don’t think it’s fair for anyone to buy a Giant bike without being aware that the warranty is almost worthless.
  • 3 0
 @SATN-XC: There's a thread on reddit where someone broke a Giant frame and submitted a warranty claim to the UK warranty team, but it was rejected because of work that was done on the bike by non-authorized Giant Dealer. I think he put a new fork on the bike himself and they're saying that voids his warranty....
  • 17 1
 I found this in the Giant T&Cs also:
Exclusions. THE ABOVE WARRANTY, OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY, DOES NOT COVER NORMAL WEAR AND TEAR. ALL WARRANTIES ARE VOID IF THE BICYCLE IS MODIFIED FROM ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION OR THE BICYCLE IS USED FOR OTHER THAN NORMAL ACTIVITIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, FAILING TO FOLLOW THE OWNER’S MANUAL OR USING THE BICYCLE FOR COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES OR IN COMPETITIVE EVENTS, INCLUD­ING BUT NOT LIMITED TO BICYCLE RACING, BICYCLE MOTORCROSS RACING, STUNT RIDING, RAMP JUMPING OR SIMILAR ACTIVITIES, AND TRAINING FOR SUCH ACTIVITIES OR EVENTS. GIANT MAKES NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EX­PRESS OR IMPLIED. Except to the extent specifically prohibited by law, ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, ARE LIM­ITED IN DURATION TO THAT OF THE EXPRESS WARRANTIES STATED ABOVE.

- So no training for a race, this voids a warranty?
- Riding a Fiver voids warranty?

"This full-composite frame is engineered with enduro racing geometry and adjustability" - > Just dont ever race or train on it or we will void the warranty....
  • 6 0
 @Acid11: Using the bicycle for its intended design and use voids the warranty. Love it.
  • 3 1
 @Acid11: TIL do not buy a Giant bicycle
  • 2 1
 @threehats: Well to be fair, if you modify you car it will void the warranty, and was the fork the same length?
I know that if I changed the rear shock on my reign, and put the wrong size in there, it sure as hell wolf void the warranty for most brands.

Here in Aus, I've only ever heard of a giant warranty being knocked back for custom paintjobs and people drilling into thier frames for internal cable routing before it was a standard thing.

I have also seen many a giant warrantied after it has been used in races here.
  • 2 1
 @Larkey1: There are plenty of car modifications that will not void your warranty. Sure, many will, but also many will not. What I am reading here is basically any work done outside of a giant dealer voids warranty. This is very far from the case in the automotive world.
  • 3 4
 @Larkey1: All that on top of having no taste in good bicycles too?
  • 2 0
 @Acid11: yeah I get around
  • 1 1
 @Larkey1: there was no fork, it was a hypothetical about getting it serviced
  • 6 4
 @RelapsedMandalorian:
So you're on a Giant/ Liv article having a crack at people who llike Giant's and Livs?
You're the one who's in bad taste.
.
.
.
.
How do you know when a plane load of brits has landed at Sydney airport?

You can still hear the whinging after the engines have stopped.
  • 3 0
 @Larkey1: in this case the bike wasn't modified (which might be fair, if you whack a set of boxxers on) - it had just been stripped down to its frame only to avoid paying the shop to strip it.
  • 2 1
 lol @Larkey1 is big mad.
  • 2 0
 @Larkey1: I think you mean "whining". You really buggered that one!
  • 3 1
 @PrincessBigWhip: Penal colonies get that way sometimes.
  • 2 3
 @gl1: nah works either way
  • 12 2
 An aggressive woman's bike that voids the warranty if you ride aggressively.
  • 4 0
 I thought the hail was their most aggressive
  • 3 0
 @fabwizard: I believe the Hail was discontinued in 2020
  • 3 0
 @gnarnaimo: headline

Most aggressive bike yet
  • 9 0
 Dropper seems negatively aggressive... How long is the darn insertion length???
  • 3 0
 Exactly the proper length so a 5’ rider STILL can’t touch ground with feet for dismount: with dropper all the way down, on the XS!!!
  • 1 1
 @supernaut69: This is why I would never buy a giant. The seat tube design doesn't allow me to run a long dropper post.
  • 1 0
 @Skooks: it got better with trunnion though
  • 1 0
 @Skooks: this is the one thing I didn't like on my Reign.
  • 7 0
 Lol! People who own Trance/Intrigue know it's just taking off a 2.5mm spacer on the shock that makes it "LT."
  • 6 0
 Why isn't there a women's bike as aggressive as the men's ones? Like is there a real reason or just not marketing the super gnarly to ladies?
  • 4 0
 Maybe since one of the overall complaints is that modern bikes are getting “so big”, and womens specific bikes are naturally gonna be selling to shorter people in general? Its probably more to do with marketing though, the girls that do want to shred can already see that the top female riders are mostly riding non-gendered bikes anyways
  • 6 0
 My GF rides a Transition Patrol, never once made a comment about the bikes "gender".
  • 5 9
flag IntoTheEverflow (Jan 25, 2023 at 5:20) (Below Threshold)
 Because there is not much of a market for aggressive women's bikes. Women tend to take less risk and many are not physically capable of doing aggressive riding.
  • 3 0
 My wife has super short legs so she is limited to bikes with low standover. Add more suspension and that goes up. That could be part of it. Once you get to taller women maybe no need for gender specific bikes.
  • 1 0
 I thought it was because the "less aggressive" bikes are made for a large portion of seated pedaling, where geometries may be most different between genders. For more aggressive riding, you'd stand up anyway so there isn't much in the body proportions that would require different bike geometries. But yeah, not sure who out of you is a woman (I'm a man) but it would require some input from an aggressive female rider indeed. What would you like to change from the currently available "aggressive" bikes to make it better suit your riding?
  • 2 0
 @fabwizard: my GF is 5' tall. Stand over height isn't an issue. The issue for her is that her XS Patrol is too long, as with most bikes, and WAY too heavy at 36+ pounds (my coil sprung E29 is 35). The amount of carbon trail/enduro bikes with reach numbers for a 5' tall, 120 pound women is pretty small.

While she could get away with less travel, which is why we are looking at something like the new Trek Fuel as a replacement, she does need aggressive geo. While certainly not the most aggressive rider around, she sends it down trails that I watch bros walk.

I'd love to keep her on a 150mm+ bike as she potentially grows into getting more air time. She's only been riding for 2 years, so she has a lot of room for growth.
  • 3 0
 @JSTootell: by PB logic your 5' tall gf should ride a 500mm reach cause its better.
  • 1 0
 @IntoTheEverflow: "not capable of doing aggressive riding" hmmmmmmmmm
  • 1 0
 @ellenhoffman15:
I know it's a hard truth to swallow for some and I was ready to be downvoted into oblivion.
But to make it somewhat more digestible:
A good portion of men aren't capable of aggressive riding...
For women that portion is even bigger.
  • 2 0
 Two things are disturbing me about these bikes prices :
How on earth 2800$ become 3399€ given the bikes are made in Taiwan and not in the US (in that case it would make more sense)? The same applies for the more expensive one.
3399€ for a bike with a RS 35 in the front. How is that even possible?
I bet the answer to these questions is that they don't sell them with a saddle either to be as* f***ed like that!
  • 1 0
 US prices are often without tax(VAT). UK price is with 20% VAT .
  • 1 1
 I bought a Liv Intrigue 2 for my daughter end of 2019 (2020 model) for 2400 euros MSRP. For this price I had a Fox 34 rhythm fork, a fox float shock, NX eagle drive train and Shimano MT520 4 pistons brakes.
  • 6 1
 As im not a service centre if I post a comment would it invalidate any warranty ?
  • 3 0
 I had 11 Giant in my life ... never had any problem with bikes or warranty. The only thing i dont like on this bike is the secret compartment on the down tube.
  • 2 1
 The most aggressive bike they make for woman is this dinky little enduro bike? Have they not seen how hard woman are hucking these days?? Give them some f*cking 200mm 27.5 freeride rigs. Stop assuming all the girls just want to pedal around the xc networks
  • 5 1
 "Their Most Aggressive Bike Yet"
Liv Hail is sad
  • 2 1
 That fork on the LT2 build sure looks unusual: "RockShox 35 Gold RL, 160mm, FIT4 damper..."
I didn't know RockFox forks were a thing, like Shigura brakes or SRAMano XT AXS drivetrains.
  • 5 6
 I bought a Liv intrigue for my missus last year. It was meant to have Shimano brakes, Shimano crank and a fox 36. When I picked the bike up it had trp brakes, fox 34 fork and praxis cranks. I told the store that it wasn't the bike I bought and he took me to the spec page on Liv's website to the fine print that said spec subject to change without notice. Safe to say I'll never buy another Liv/Giant.
  • 4 0
 If it is wrote they can do it. Read any electricity or telephone or insurance supply contract ... you will find the same wording
  • 1 0
 Should be similar or better quality. I have the same problem right now, but on a lower scale luckily.
  • 3 4
 why are you being downvoted, that is so ridiculous. Fuck Giant.
  • 1 0
 For the $300CAD extra for the LT1, why would anyone bother with the LT2? If I were a shop, I wouldn’t even order the latter.
  • 3 1
 SX and RS gold. Hahahahaha
  • 3 2
 Dear Liv/Giant,
Do girls not want the long, low and slack bikes with 160-180 travel like boys do?

Just asking
  • 3 0
 170mm Enduro- 200mm ish DH bikes are less than 8-9% of the MTB market share in the USA surprisingly.
  • 1 0
 Wonder if they'll make a Giant brand 150/160 bike now...
  • 21 21
 Why do 'female specific' brands still exist in 2023
  • 20 4
 Why not
  • 10 2
 They use to have longer legs, and shorter torso and arms.... So it should affect to the geometry
  • 16 0
 my wife, daughter, and wife's friends all ride LIV bikes and they love them. ride what works for you
  • 7 8
 The gender neutral product lines fad is purely just a ploy to reduce the number of product lines and therefore substantially reduce costs to the manufacturer. You’ve been caught hook line and sinker if you don’t realise it.
  • 11 6
 That’s like asking why female-specific clothing exists.
Men and women on average do not have the same torso:leg length ratio, so what fits a man of the same height will not necessarily fit a woman.
  • 2 3
 You don't get it do you.
  • 8 7
 @nickfranko: but the differences in clothing is far greater than the differences in bike geo
  • 6 3
 @oatkinso: wouldn’t the same argument be true for gendered product lines? They’re primarily marketing and a ploy to differentiate the brands and sell more product right?
  • 3 1
 I recall (though my memory could be off) looking at a bunch of frames a while back for my GF and seeing that the only difference between the "female" bikes were the colors and brand. Geo was the same if they had a "non female" equivalent.

I was shopping for my GF. And at the time, Liv didn't even have a decent bike that could fit her, so she has two "non gender specific" (or whatever) bikes that do...sorta (one is slightly too big).
  • 5 2
 @JSTootell: Thanks that was my whole point. Not sure why it's so controversial
  • 5 0
 Liv does a pretty good job designing bikes for women (and dudes) who‘s body proportions don’t quite work well with regular bikes, while also keeping them as affordable as their Giant counterparts. I understand the skepticism though. I used to work for a “high end” brand that sold women’s bikes which were the exact same frames, just painted pink with shittier components and a higher price tag.
  • 13 2
 @JSTootell: You should listen to the womens mtb pinkbike podcast.

Santa cruz/Juliana just paints their bikes a different colour
Pivot changes the "touch points" eg grips, saddle

Liv actually do a WHOLE custom frame with geo to suit people with longer legs and shorter torsos.

I sold them for years. If a woman doesn't fit the mold of having long legs and short torso, then sometimes a Giant mens bike is the way to go.
  • 2 7
flag JSTootell (Jan 24, 2023 at 20:08) (Below Threshold)
 @Larkey1: well, if you just heard the rant my GF made about Liv, and women's bikes in general, you'd know they don't make bikes for women riders.

Which is probably why she rides "men's" bikes.
  • 6 2
 @JSTootell: tell me you and her know nothing about liv without telling me you know nothing about liv
  • 6 0
 @Jer3myF: no I’d argue, in an effort not to be a complete cynic, that bike brands are actually trying to offer women a genuinely better product by selling them bikes that actually fit. If that in turn means they sell more bikes then good for them
  • 7 8
 Female specific is total bullshit: there is so much between the min and max in one gender (male or female) that this gendre thing for bike is nonsense.
Just make size from xs to xxl with matching components. Or make a different frame if it isn't possible on any side of the spectrum.
  • 6 3
 @fracasnoxteam: You're not selling and fitting bikes to women very often are you.
  • 4 0
 Check the data Liv is referring to:

article:
www.liv-cycling.com/global/about-womens-specific-design

data:
www.liv-cycling.com/global/liv-design-data
at the bottom of that page are the cited sources.



If they would only be doing it for marketing alone they would do it the way Juliana, Trek WS and Scott Contessa do it or did it:
Same frames with other colors and maybe another saddle or grips.
  • 3 4
 @Larkey1: tell me, are you a woman?

Because my GF gave birth to 4 kids. I think her opinion on bikes "made for women" has more value than any marketing materials.
  • 1 3
 @nickfranko: men and women have the same average torso:leg ratio and the same distribution of ratios across the population - for a given ethnic heritage. Unfortunately bike brands either made up the “fact” you quoted or just used bad science. Ethnic heritage does affect torso:leg ratio with people whose ancestors evolved in colder climates having shorter limbs for their height on average.
  • 2 0
 @JSTootell: cherry picking doesn't proof nothing. In general, women have different body length this means that Liv bikes make sense to offer a different geometry adapted for women.
  • 1 0
 @threehats: I'm a male with an inseam that's close to 50% of his body length. Still looking out for those 'women specific' bikes for people in the 1m86 length bracket. Do you have a source for the info you provide here? I'm curious to read more about it.
  • 1 0
 @ak-77: it was a paper I read that I think was published by The Smithsonian but I’ve never found it since! I questioned the manufacturers’ claims because I have longer limbs for my height than my wife does for hers and started hunting to see what there was to support it - this was at least a decade ago and now most brands have stopped claiming that women have different proportions in this way.

As a long-legged person I’d recommend not going too long on the reach, fitting a long dropper post and properly high rise bars. There’s also an argument for chainstay lengths not being as short (partly for pedalling, partly because your hips are further back when standing) and for steeper seat angles.

It’s long-torso short-leg people that ran into more fit issues but modern geometry has pretty much fixed that.
  • 2 0
 @threehats: Thanks for the extra info, I'll see what I can dig up. As for the bike fit, I know pretty much what I need by now, and my current bike works pretty well for me with it's 'outdated' geometry. I'm glad companies have been getting better at publishing actual seat angles or 'seat angle at ride height' tables & max seatpost insertion nrs. Nevertheless, many still aren't providing that crucial - to longleggers -information.
  • 2 0
 @threehats: adc.bmj.com/content/90/8/807 focused on a single country but good data. 20 year old males have a sitting-height to leg length ratio of 1.05, females 1.11. So slightly shorter legs in females for their height, the difference between the means is about one standard deviation. In other words, the average male has longer legs for his length than 50% of males and 85% of females.
Also in other words, female bike sizing with shorter reach is bullshit if you want to base it on body proportions, it should be the other way around.
They also mention the ratios are different for different regions/races but I couldn't quickly find a reference that compares them.
  • 1 1
 @Larkey1: I'm not and it's not relevant.
  • 1 0
 @fracasnoxteam: Maybe you should be quiet and listen to people who are qualified.
  • 1 0
 @ak-77: just look a 10.000km womans race into the olimpics ... Chinese vs Kenyan to figure out the huge difference...
  • 3 0
 @Larkey1: I built one liv hail for my wife, from the original bike only a few parts remained untouch. I'm a liv fan for what they do for women in cycling. I know a very little honestly, compare to you who is probably selling bikes or something.
I'm saying "women specific" is not useless, we just need smaller bike with smaller component for smaller people. This include women, childs, smaller man, etc.
  • 2 0
 @fracasnoxteam: is not just smaller people. arm and legs lenght is determinant. Is like if you take your size clothes depending only on how tall is the person.

There are more points to take care looking for better bike fitting, that's all.
  • 1 0
 @fracasnoxteam: It's like show sizing. We have wide shoes for someone who has wide feet. You wouldn't just sell them a super large pair of shoes that are way too long would you? No you'd sell the right length of shoe in the wide width.
  • 1 0
 Color matches my car
  • 13 14
 Make Tektro brakes illegal
  • 14 2
 What's wrong with TRP?
  • 7 9
 @JonnyTheWeasel: Nothing is wrong with TRP, they're great. Tektro is hot garbage though
  • 13 2
 @DizzyNinja @gatesaver

You guys high or just shilling for one of the "big S's"?

Tektro = lower end TRP. Both are just fine.

Over 6000 miles on Tektro Orion 725 4pot + 2pot on a 55lb 28mph e-commuter that gets loaded and rallied on 20% grades and gravel - no problem.
Kinda cheap bendy levers, but cheap and easy to replace. Easy to work on. Small parts available from friendly guys in Utah here (unlike shimano).
Shop sees plenty of eMTBS with TRP Quadiems, e-city bikes with basic Vela or equivalent... seriously have more issues w/ Shimano and Magura out of the box than with either T.

Do I prefer the ergonomics of Shimano and the feel of properly set up Magura on the trail? Yeah.. But that's personal.

Point being Tektro makes perfectly fine affordable brakes.
  • 2 6
flag DizzyNinja (Jan 24, 2023 at 14:27) (Below Threshold)
 @dontcoast: You really took that personally didn't you... I've had two bikes with Tektro brakes, they were hot garbage. Changed pads and rotors to better stuff and they worked well enough to stop but wouldn't brag about them. Rode my friend's bike with TRP, was very impressed, better than anything from Shimano except for Saints.
  • 5 2
 @DizzyNinja: Tektro = TRP
  • 5 6
 @JonnyTheWeasel: lol no, TRP = Tektro Racing Products, a higher end line of components..
  • 7 0
 I'll add SRAM SX to the list of hot garbage that should be illegal
  • 3 2
 @DizzyNinja: dont bother getting into that argument. I've been down this road on pinkbike before. Tektro is trash, trp is nice, they aren't the same.

If they were the same they wouldn't use different brands.
  • 1 0
 @dontcoast: I have a 24" kids bike with hydraulic Tektros, and they've been rock solid. It's been years, and I've passed the bike from one kid to another, and the brakes just keep working fine. But I would guess that the same brakes for the average adult mountain biker wouldn't last.
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 @DizzyNinja: He didn't take it personally; he wrote you his experience with some brakes.
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 Never had Tektro brakes until I bought a cargo bike last year. Brakes appear to be a less refined 4-pod version of the TRP DH brakes with 2.3 mm wide discs. My experience is very positive with the Tektro brakes, and I run Trickstuff on my MTBs for comparison.
  • 1 0
 @nots1: exactly this.

Their cargo bike version is a heavy, cheaper to make version of a DH brake and both work just fine.

@DizzyNinja didn't take it personally, shared field experience of the product working reliably and as intended - and above expectation for the price point.

Yeah, there's nicer stuff out there, and you may wish it were specced on a given bike, but calling TRP or Tektro "hot garbage" or "should be illigal" is simply incorrect from a performance, reliability, value, serviceability and (US) customer support perspective. (Never said I would brag about them either. Said they do the job consistently)
  • 2 0
 @peterman1234: I'd say Sram SX is WAY less reliable than any tektro product i've used.
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 @RonSauce: by that logic, Acuras are nice and all Hondas are trash. Yeah ok.
  • 2 4
 If anyone is wondering how the bike rides, just look up the 2014 Trance reviews
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