London Bike Show Is Another COVID-19 Casualty After Owner Closes Shop

Jan 4, 2021
by Alicia Leggett  
Photo: Ed Spratt

The owner of the London Bike Show, Newtimber Media, has canceled its 2021 show and has ceased business operations, becoming another casualty of COVID-19.

The company announced on the websites of the London Bike Show and its sister show, Triathlon Show: London, that although it has done everything possible to stay afloat, uncertainty about events in 2021 has forced the shutdown.

“Business recovery specialists are in the process of recouping funds from our suppliers and our clients will hear from them in due course with what will happen next,” the statement read. “A sad end to what was a successful event, wishing the industry good health and success in the future.”

The UK’s largest bike exhibition, the London Bike Show planned to celebrate its 10th anniversary in 2020 before the event was canceled. The 2021 return was scheduled for March 5-7, but was canceled when large gatherings remained unfeasible.

Newtimber Media bought the event in 2018 from Telegraph Events and ran a successful show for a single year in 2019, but never had the chance to find its feet before the pandemic hit.

Unable to count on revenue from 2021 events, exhibitors worldwide may have to find creative ways to make ends meet. We're keeping our fingers crossed this doesn’t become a trend in the industry as we feel the ongoing effects of COVID-19.


298 Comments

  • 179 14
 I’m throwing this out there — exhibition shows are a relic and the industry will do better without with.

Please hear me out here. Interbike started in the ‘80s but moved to Vegas in in the late ‘90s. ...before the internet was, well, the internet, and does as the internet does — deliver information to people rapidly. In recent years it’s been somewhat of a race to get content out same-day or even within hours. My point being, we didn’t need a big in-person event to launch bike stuff. It also had a secondary effect. It cemented on a calendar when ‘next years’ products needed to be developed. Moreover, it established bikes being released based on a calendar rather than when they were the industry deemed them necessary. This in-turn devalued the previous years’ bikes even is all had changed was the colour.

There is another way, and we’re already seeing it. Whether by design or disadvantage of being a small company, Evil bikes released bikes as needed. Maybe not as fast as somy might like to keep up with geometry trends, but what this means is their resale values hold strong. And they should, for any bike. A $9,000 bike shouldn’t be worth $4,500 the minute January arrives, but we’ve seen this happen for decades now. If people had a strong idea their purchase would maintain its value, they would likely be more willing to purchase new products (good for the companies) and I honestly don’t see the secondary market being affected significantly either. There will always be plenty of people looking to save a few dollars and go pre-owned but for those of us who just can’t justify the depreciation of going new, now we might take that step.

I’m empathetic to anyone whose business doesn’t succeed, but this may be good of the industry. It might also foster the development of a different type of cycling event, perhaps built around racing (think SeaOtter).
  • 4 2
 Wow, good show Mate. tup
  • 14 18
flag conoat (Jan 4, 2021 at 14:51) (Below Threshold)
 sea otter is going to die too
  • 63 0
 I'm just bummed I can't go to Vegas and get loaded with all my childhood cycling heroes anymore!!! And the bike shop paid for it!!!!
  • 21 1
 @cwatt You are correct, of course. Some industries just expire over time, big bike conventions being one of those whose time seems to have passed. And you're right about how new business models replace old ones, usually for the better in the long run. But I LOVED LOVED LOVED Interbike and Eurobike and Sea Otter. So much awesome bike stuff and so many awesome bike people in one place! Do we still NEED them? Probably not. But I still want them!
  • 4 9
flag suspended-flesh (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:32) (Below Threshold)
 @conoat: Doom-scrolling much?
  • 16 1
 @conoat: disagree, they have a completely different business model from most expos - people show up for the same reasons they show up to Crankworx, which is to see pros, cool shit and to be immersed in bike culture. Then, with a captive audience, bike brands can actually feel pretty strongly that the turn out is going to be solid and - voila, they buy a booth and/or advertisement space. 2021 will be a challenge for Sea Otter USA, but they will be back stronger than ever as soon as people can breathe on each other again. Also keep in mind that the bike industry is doing pretty well lately and therefore companies can afford to be at what is debatably the biggest bike festival on the planet.
  • 7 18
flag conoat (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:44) (Below Threshold)
 @n-lagasse: I have knowlege. if the SOC in Monterrey doesn't happen this year, it never will again.
  • 16 3
 @conoat: No mate, you don't. If there's one thing we know for sure.
  • 53 18
 With that logic there is no humaity. Why have anything in person? I like people. I like socializing. The internet has given us trolls and the more the intenet takes over the more the trolls win and turns normal people into nasty people in real life. People worry about the zombie apocalypse but we are witnessing and experiencing it now. Quarantine, social distancing, stay inside, wear a mask, erase you bring a unique human.. fck that.
  • 12 0
 @conoat: “Never” is a pretty definitive word and therefore makes me question your “knowledge”.
  • 21 20
 @Thirty3: Nodding along with you then...you say f*ck wearing a mask, etc. Typo I'm thinking, hoping you're not that dumb. lol
  • 3 7
flag likeittacky (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:03) (Below Threshold)
 So buy your next $9000 year bike in late summer when the next year models start selling in stores, ride the shit out of it like your supposed to and sell it before Dec.31st, a year and half later for your ideal price$$$! I disagree with your evaluation on said depreciation of bikes and if you take it upon yourself to dump 9K on a bicycle then were all laughing!

You should be making enough dough to say what the hell sell it buy the new one.
  • 22 0
 I partially agree, but I think that exhibition shows are a great platform for companies to showcase their brand.
There is just something about being able to see a bike in the flesh, up close, rather then on a website. For instance; colors will never be 100% true on screen (at least for most of us who don't own a fancy callibrated monitor)


But there is more to it. For business insiders it's an ideal place for networking, see what the competition is doing, etc... It is also the perfect opportunity for the industry to connect with their audience. Where else would you get the chance to speak directly to the powers that be, rather then going through your dealer, who's telling the account manager, who's briefing the sales manager and so on... (Often you can channel your most inner Karen directly to the higher levels of management of brand X)

It may need some tweaking, certainly in a post-Covid world, but I feel that exhibitions are here to stay.
But I'm with you on the whole season thing. Even though it might imply that some paint stripping companies in the Santa Cruz area may be going out of business.
  • 2 0
 @whattheheel: so undervalued!
  • 30 61
flag Rageingdh (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:35) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: Hey, I’ll let you in on a little secret, the masks don’t help.
  • 23 12
 @Rageingdh: You're an epidemiologists then are you?
  • 16 22
flag suspended-flesh (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:50) (Below Threshold)
 @Rageingdh: Only death is real. I hope you or your family don't have to experience it before you come to your senses and cover up your god-given pie hole. 1 in every 1000 Mericans that was alive in January 2020 in dead from this sh1t.
  • 27 42
flag Thirty3 (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:54) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: Cases are soring and masks are mandatory. That tells me they don't do anything..
  • 7 29
flag Rageingdh (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:57) (Below Threshold)
 @suspended-flesh: I wonder if the the people that died that were mentioned in the other comments wore masks.
  • 11 16
flag suspended-flesh (Jan 4, 2021 at 17:13) (Below Threshold)
 @Thirty3: Define mandatory. There is zero enforcement. You come up to me, try to talk to me without a mask on in the street and I will regulate your ass, but there is no Mask Authority.
  • 30 15
 @Thirty3: cases are soaring because of idiots like you that don’t wear them.
  • 28 5
 @suspended-flesh: My owner thinks it is mandatory that I wear a muzzle but I can still maul the trash and try but honestly I'd say that people who maybe can't see beyond their flat faces with weak looking teeth and have no regard for the science behind masks, social distancing and generally caring about others should maybe do a good think. Its not like any of YOUR balls are getting cut off. Its a piece of fabric, that I can eat when you're not looking, that seems to do something about a thing that I don't entirely understand, because I'm not that smart.
  • 11 33
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 17:48) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: Look forward to your conclusive evidence for wearing cloth masks in non-surgical settings.
  • 23 35
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 17:53) (Below Threshold)
 @suspended-flesh: Heads up dude. 250,000 people die everyday on planet earth. The US has not, at any stage, been differentiating between pneumonia, influenza, and C19. Funny enough the usual numbers for the first two are in the negative...
  • 19 37
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 17:56) (Below Threshold)
 @eridesbikes44: The more cases and the fewer excess deaths proves how non-lethal the virus is. I always laugh when goons so cases are going up. Guess what, if we tested everyone and 80% of the population were asymptomatic (an upper end estimate) it wouldn’t be very dangerous would it?
  • 14 35
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 17:58) (Below Threshold)
 @IamTheDogEzra: Looking forward to that science dude.

March 2020, 2 weeks to flatten the Curve. LOL!
  • 12 0
 @cwatt: Totally agree. Also, bike brands, maybe you should reallocate your annual spend on tradeshows to doing a lot more demo days to get your product in hands of riders ready to try and buy.
  • 38 10
 @jclnv: Alright man, f*ck it. I mentioned doing a good think and it seems like you're doing a truther-esque bad think. Here's the deal. Pneumonia/Influenza and the entire other cocktail of disease and death causes is decreasing. What we can probably surmise is that more people are staying home, thus they are not contracting these un-arguably LESS LETHAL ILLNESSES. I don't understand how you conspiratorial types who are "so smart" and "so logical" can't do basic root cause hypothesizing. Honestly it bends my simple canine mind into a tangled slime of cowhide and carpet. You should actually go and look at the total deceased number of humans in the United States. It is currently around a 15% increase from 2019. I don't disagree that perhaps COVID deaths have been a sort of catch all for respiratory failure death while under medical care but the clear lack of reporting about deaths which occur outside of a hospital setting likely balances out and even skews deeper towards the "holy shit more people died this year than last year by a wide margin and all the votes aren't in don't hold your breath because most likely this is going to be a real barn burner of death" kinda year. Read the Great Influenza by John M. Barry, they made a copy in dog braille so even I could understand it.
  • 21 30
flag Boxmtb (Jan 4, 2021 at 18:28) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: yeah, and why did the flu rate drop over 91%? Suspicious? I listened to a scientist who took covid 19 test swabs and tested them for the flu and almost all of them came back positive, for the flu. I think this whole pandemic is exaggerated. In fact even the term pandemic is deceiving, the prefix pan means all, but the covid death rate for those under 70 is only 99.9985% . And not to mention in Wisconsin they found out the death rate was raised 40%. This is not a pandemic, and the whole approach to lockdowns is killing people's businesses and their lives are being destroyed. And people are staring to wake up and fight back.
  • 2 3
 Con-Culture is dead, and a good thing for all industries.
  • 14 21
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 19:10) (Below Threshold)
 And yet here’s Sweden’s 5 year numbers. Nothing out of the ordinary despite minimal lockdowns, distancing, no masks, no small business economy destroyed etc.

www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths
  • 15 22
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 19:21) (Below Threshold)
 @Boxmtb: Totally agree. It’s a shitty virus that is causing excess deaths in the elderly and those with pre-existing conditions but it’s not a death sentence if you’re reasonably healthy. Destroying people’s livelihoods, increasing domestic abuse, child abuse, suicide etc is a sick joke. It’s been politicized since May. Never let a good crisis go to waste eh?
  • 2 1
 @n-lagasse: lol, Crankworx is slowly dying buddy, when was the last time you been to either one of those events?
  • 21 25
flag ryan189 (Jan 4, 2021 at 19:43) (Below Threshold)
 @Thirty3: It's true actually. Look at the data (focus on Science) and you'll see masks and lockdowns don't work. The Danish showed charts 2 weeks ago where masks mandates went into play, with cases soaring after that. The point is, none of this matters. The bickering is part of the plan of Globalist Elite that are pushing this nonsense. What's the nonsense? A flu that 99.98% of the people beat. Sure, some people die (and that gets the wildebeest running) and the media and Government hacks pushing fear, but again MOST live, including my family in Argentina, 85 and 80 years old respectively; she with massive diabetes and obese. Canada, as an example has just over 15,000 deaths, in a country of 35 million people. Even the U.S. with their deaths, relative to 360 million people is still peanuts. Here's the scam: the PCR test. PCR was never meant for diagnosis. It's meant for forensics. In the latter (criminal investigations) they run at 15 cycles (amplification). For covid, their are purposely testing at 35-40 cycles which is totally ridiculous, and it's why there are so many false positives. Austrian Parliament did a live test on a can of coke, and it came out positive. PCR has also tested a papaya, water and gasoline as positive. In the UK, as an example, for the past number of decades, on average, 1700 people die a month. Car accidents, smoking, whatever. Mysteriously, these deaths are all now covid. And 'flu' cases worldwide have all disappeared as covid take the claim. Also, in the U.S. they are testing dead bodies for covid. Cyclist gets hit by a car...gets covid test. Turns positive (because 50-80% false postives). Dead cyclist is now reported as a covid death. Who is doing this? Not the 1%. I care less about wall street c&nts that have millions and maybe billions and a private jet. I'm talking about serious money, real money - Rockeller type, Rothchild family, then add in the Davos crew and woke G20 leaders, and finally ...throw in the 'World Economic Forum' because it sounds so legit! They are pushing a 'Great Reset' which they no longer hide from anymore. By 'hiding in plain sight' they hope to confuse the sheeple. Great reset is covered in flawed 'virtue seeking' nonsense, and vegetarianism, but what they really want is control. Our bodies to have nanoparticle, where we are essentially a machine - Klause (google him) is the head of the World Economic forum and a big believer in Trans humanism, as is Bill Gates. Imagine you have no wallet or credit card, or even iPhone...because your body acts as all. But, what they want is a credit score system, similar to China, where they have complete control over you. Great Reset is consolidation of power for globalist elite, and socialism for us all. Fight back! Now, for you non-believers, you will soon believe: go onto Rumble (the real youtube) and search Robert F. Kennedy and David Martin interview. Moderna was a shell company run by Bill Gates and Tony Fauci. Moderna was first a failed cancer company, so they switched to vaccines. That virus was offshored from University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and taken to Wuhan Laboratories by Gates, Fauci and Moderna execs. Obama did this in 2014 to stop bioweapons. How and why this "leaked" is your theory. But, know this, Moderna filed for a patent on the virus and received in only one year before covid hit. Yes, they filed a patent on the virus. All of this is public info on SEC filings and U.S. Patent docs. Search them yourself. Here's the interview:https://rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html

Here's the latest data as of jan 4. This is a complete scam. Science!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_vAQyVlXzU
  • 10 21
flag ryan189 (Jan 4, 2021 at 19:46) (Below Threshold)
 @eridesbikes44: Nope, study the science and don't be a zealot.
It's true actually. Look at the data (focus on Science) and you'll see masks and lockdowns don't work. The Danish showed charts 2 weeks ago where masks mandates went into play, with cases soaring after that. The point is, none of this matters. The bickering is part of the plan of Globalist Elite that are pushing this nonsense. What's the nonsense? A flu that 99.98% of the people beat. Sure, some people die (and that gets the wildebeest running) and the media and Government hacks pushing fear, but again MOST live, including my family in Argentina, 85 and 80 years old respectively; she with massive diabetes and obese. Canada, as an example has just over 15,000 deaths, in a country of 35 million people. Even the U.S. with their deaths, relative to 360 million people is still peanuts. Here's the scam: the PCR test. PCR was never meant for diagnosis. It's meant for forensics. In the latter (criminal investigations) they run at 15 cycles (amplification). For covid, their are purposely testing at 35-40 cycles which is totally ridiculous, and it's why there are so many false positives. Austrian Parliament did a live test on a can of coke, and it came out positive. PCR has also tested a papaya, water and gasoline as positive. In the UK, as an example, for the past number of decades, on average, 1700 people die a month. Car accidents, smoking, whatever. Mysteriously, these deaths are all now covid. And 'flu' cases worldwide have all disappeared as covid take the claim. Also, in the U.S. they are testing dead bodies for covid. Cyclist gets hit by a car...gets covid test. Turns positive (because 50-80% false postives). Dead cyclist is now reported as a covid death. Who is doing this? Not the 1%. I care less about wall street c&nts that have millions and maybe billions and a private jet. I'm talking about serious money, real money - Rockeller type, Rothchild family, then add in the Davos crew and woke G20 leaders, and finally ...throw in the 'World Economic Forum' because it sounds so legit! They are pushing a 'Great Reset' which they no longer hide from anymore. By 'hiding in plain sight' they hope to confuse the sheeple. Great reset is covered in flawed 'virtue seeking' nonsense, and vegetarianism, but what they really want is control. Our bodies to have nanoparticle, where we are essentially a machine - Klause (google him) is the head of the World Economic forum and a big believer in Trans humanism, as is Bill Gates. Imagine you have no wallet or credit card, or even iPhone...because your body acts as all. But, what they want is a credit score system, similar to China, where they have complete control over you. Great Reset is consolidation of power for globalist elite, and socialism for us all. Fight back! Now, for you non-believers, you will soon believe: go onto Rumble (the real youtube) and search Robert F. Kennedy and David Martin interview. Moderna was a shell company run by Bill Gates and Tony Fauci. Moderna was first a failed cancer company, so they switched to vaccines. That virus was offshored from University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, and taken to Wuhan Laboratories by Gates, Fauci and Moderna execs. Obama did this in 2014 to stop bioweapons. How and why this "leaked" is your theory. But, know this, Moderna filed for a patent on the virus and received in only one year before covid hit. Yes, they filed a patent on the virus. All of this is public info on SEC filings and U.S. Patent docs. Search them yourself. Here's the interview:https://rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html

Here's the latest data as of jan 4. This is a complete scam. Science!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_vAQyVlXzU
  • 14 18
flag ryan189 (Jan 4, 2021 at 19:51) (Below Threshold)
 @Rageingdh: Correct, this was even debunked by New England Journal of Medicine, not that I normally care about "institutions" and "white coat," though every Leftist out there loves the word "Science." It's the most cliche and arrogant term of 2020. The Danes, (and Sweden) literally proved this. Soon as Denmark forced masks, cases skyrocketed. I also think, personally, that masks become another vector point. Idiots touch them all day long because they are itchy and awkward, then the waiter or waitress brings you your food, or some guy touches the bus handle.

Watch this interview. rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html
  • 1 1
 @neroleeloo: I never said Crankworx was thriving or dying, I just used it as an example. Last time I was at Crankworx (Whistler) was 2019. I think you could debate that perhaps Crankworx was a bit aggressive in their expansion goals, but I don’t think that’s an argument for them “dying”. Kudos to any business/venture that seeks to grow and innovate, particularly in a niche sport like mountain biking - it’s certainly not a get rich scheme. You could also debate that the reason why Crankworx and Sea Otter continue to progress and remain relevant is because they are innovating, as opposed to Interbike which failed to adapt and therefore... well you get the point.
  • 7 2
 @jclnv: If I understand what you mean by 'in the negative' - yes the regular pathogens are in a mortal battle for survival because their usually careless hosts ARE ACTUALLY TAKING MEASURES AGAINST THEM. They are the collateral damage in all this antiseptic 'hysteria'. Do you know anyone who has had a cold since this began? I don't. R.I.P. Common Cold. Dude.

The real point, however is that this is merely one 'new' virus. You can bet there are many more Novel challenges awaiting discovery. I am a misanthrope and atheist, so I welcome the decimation of humankind. Human = Garbage.

Mountain biking is fun and I plan to live.
  • 31 7
 @ryan189: If only these epidemiologists had done research on YouTube like you instead of going to Universities and getting doctorates.
  • 3 0
 I'd go to Vegas and check out the other shows as well!!!
  • 13 3
 @ryan189:

Question: Is Moderna Tied to Fauci, Gates, Soros, and Epstein?

Answer: A spoof omnibus conspiracy theory linked a company developing a potential COVID-19 vaccine to several prominent figures.
  • 8 19
flag ryan189 (Jan 4, 2021 at 20:24) (Below Threshold)
 @suspended-flesh: watch the video brah. All data is proof positive with U.S. Patent filings as well as SEC filings.
  • 9 18
flag jclnv (Jan 4, 2021 at 21:00) (Below Threshold)
 @suspended-flesh: That’s a really interesting one because a study was recently released (I can’t find it due to Google burying anything negative around NPI’s) on the use of NPI’s - Non pharmaceutical Interventions. It stated that the reduction in immune strength due to us isolating ourselves from each other and bacteria will cause a net higher death rate over the next five years. Obvious really isn’t it? Unless you want to wear masks, distance and other un-human behaviours indefinitely, your going to be far more susceptible to the global strains of influenza, bacterial pneumonia etc that will always be doing the rounds when the NPI’s end. Although you get the feeling many a f*cked up virtue signalling communist scumbag would love them to be permanent Wink

I agree that they’ll be other viruses that will genuinely be epidemics across all age groups in the future. The issue is their is a a growing population of people who won’t take it seriously due to the mishandling and propaganda of this one.
  • 14 20
flag Durtwrx (Jan 4, 2021 at 21:18) (Below Threshold)
 You are a complete idiot if you wear a mask believing it’s saving you from a Virus. @eridesbikes44:
  • 2 3
 Yup@Boxmtb:
  • 7 1
 @Boxmtb: Please provide one reliable source for anything you just said.
  • 2 0
 I think 2020 was the death of the trade show as a whole. They were already dwindling in several industries I’ve been a part of and this was the nail in the coffin. I predict there will be more brand events going forward
  • 7 3
 Covid......that was so last year.
  • 4 2
 @cwatt
[ I’m throwing this out there — exhibition shows are a "relic" and the industry will do better without with.
My point being, we didn’t need a big in-person event to launch bike stuff. ]

With this thought - logic, what is the next stage, not to have real race's, and because we have the ability to watch from the palm of our hand, to put the competitors running from their garden, with virtual reality ?

I think nothing can replace the physical presence and being there in person, so you can feel the whole process - experience!

[ Moreover, it established bikes being released based on a calendar rather than when they were the industry deemed them necessary. This in-turn devalued the previous years’ bikes even is all had changed was the colour. ]

I think the best thing is that we should stop being just "consumers" and "fan boys"
in any industry,
and not to buy anything that is in "fashion" and that they "present-sell" us !

"I'm just saying some thoughts that went through my mind"!
  • 9 3
 @Durtwrx: you’re a selfish idiot if you don’t.
  • 6 0
 Fool@Rageingdh:
  • 8 3
 @ryan189: absolutely agree, we have governors pushing as hard as they can for lockdowns and masks, then they go out to the French laundry with 50 other people and no masks (ahem Newsom
  • 5 3
 @n-lagasse: no income for over 2 years. name a business that can sustain itself with literally $0 coming in for over two years?
  • 4 7
 @Durtwrx: So says Florida Man. Hey, Spanky, tell me where you got your degree in Virology.
  • 10 12
 @suspended-flesh: the average age of covid death is HIGHER than the average age of death from all causes combined....it's killing people that were living on borrowed time, but lockdowns are killing the young.
  • 5 14
flag conoat (Jan 5, 2021 at 5:53) (Below Threshold)
 @suspended-flesh: I had one of you tough guys try to puff up about masks awhile back. was pretty entertaining watching them run away(just like you you would) when I didn't back down. you have no moral ground to stand on you miserable SOB
  • 8 9
 @conoat: Absolutely, and the death rate for the young is insanely minimal
  • 2 9
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 6:21) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: How? If they don't work then its not selfish.
  • 5 9
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 6:23) (Below Threshold)
 @mobiller: these epidemiologists are the ones spreading these lies, and the ones that question it lose their jobs
  • 12 8
 @Boxmtb: enough? yes, enough of you linking OANN and Fox News as if they're credible news sources
  • 12 7
 @Boxmtb: yes the epidemiologists are just evil scientists trying to kill everyone, and Dearest Donny is the only one on our side, right??
  • 9 3
 @Boxmtb: They are well known to help - not prevent all transmission, but significantly reduce it.
Choosing to believe dipshit theories on the internet vs professional medical advice would be OK if it only endangered you, but it has potentially dangerous repercussions on those around you - therefore stupid, arrogant and selfish.
  • 11 3
 @conoat: lockdowns are killing the young? lol, kids haven't been socializing in person for the last 10 years anyway
  • 16 3
 i can't tell if PB has been taken over by Russian trolls or if there are just THAT many gullible twats here
  • 4 12
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 6:49) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: so Fox News is the number one watched news network, and yet you say they’re not credible.

variety.com/2020/tv/news/network-ratings-2020-top-channels-fox-news-cnn-msnbc-cbs-1234866801

In denial much???
  • 13 0
 @Rageingdh: Please tell me that's an attempt at satire?
  • 8 1
 @Rageingdh: lol, im not sure you understand how credibility works
  • 10 7
 Ah, new year, new covid discussions.

First of all, masks, social distancing, lockdowns and all are emergency to buy time and come with a sustainable solution. What we have learned is that the people who are affected by the virus aren't attacked by the virus itself but by their own upset immune system. People who this happens to are elderly and/or people with poor health, notably people suffering from so called wealth illnesses (obesity, diabetes etc). We also learned that not all health systems can efficiently deal with a pandemic. I live in the Netherlands. We used to have sufficient IC capacity but in as little as five years the government dropped that to half that and needs to fly patients to Germany.

The virus isn't the problem, the virus highlights the problem. You may be able to patch that with a vaccine, but a mere patch doesn't solve the underlying problem. It is not a sustainable solution. So buying time with emergency measures is particularly painful if this time isn't being used to address the underlying problem. Whereas so much could be so simple. Or well, if you can force people to wear masks, limit their social contacts etc then the suggestions below are simple in comparison.

- Ban tobacco.

- Heavily tax unhealthy foods rich in processed sugar and use the money to relieve vegetables from tax so that the lower incomes can actually consume healthy foods for less than it costs to buy fastfood.

- Put foods rich in processed sugar in unattractive packaging just like we currently do with tobacco (pictures of sick people on them etc).

I think these alone would hugely relieve the western medical system. Covid puts a burden on the system? Surely people living an unhealthy lifestyle put a heavier burden on it. Not just that, likely fewer people infected with covid will actually need medical care anyway. So there will be more capacity left for the elderly or other people who do actually need the care. I do realize that there are some well intended pointers given like "eat healthy" but if low quality "empty carbohydrades" (potatoes, processed sugars, wheat etc) are just cheaper than food with essential and varied vitamins, proteins and fats then people with lower incomes will always pick the cheaper emptier foods and sadly end up weak and ill eventually. So I do believe in the taxing solution mentioned above.

Again, I'm not against emergency solutions per se but if you're not using the time you bought to realize a sustainable solution (and a vaccine isn't a sustainable solution for the problem here) then the negatives outweigh any positives.
  • 1 10
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 6:58) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: nice try, but your witty humor isn’t gonna cut it.
  • 1 3
 @huckschwinn: he means people of working age and breadwinners.
  • 6 0
 @Rageingdh: A bit like your intellect then?
  • 2 9
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:02) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: What do you want me to link CNN?
  • 1 10
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:03) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: All I'm saying is that the death rates are being raised and counted wrong,
  • 2 10
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:06) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: I link data and evidence from news sources that quote scientists and because it doesn't fit with the dooms day narrative you throw it out?
  • 2 9
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:08) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: just waiting for you to back up your statement with something other than an opinion.
  • 2 8
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:14) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: I'm not say all the scientist are bad,
gbdeclaration.org
This is a declaration with 700,000 people and 13,000 public health scientists and 40,000 medical practitioners, It talks about the great damage we are doing to young people by keeping them locked down and out of school. It talks about all the mental health issues related with these lockdowns
"We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza."
"Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity."
  • 11 1
 @Boxmtb: You're reading that selectively (he says they have a benefit but it may be outweighed by continually touching the mask) and choosing to ignore that he has re-evaluated his stance in that he believes them to have a net benefit. That is taken from almost a year ago, in which time much has been learned. msphere.asm.org/content/5/5/e00637-20
Even the least effective (simple cotton) masks provide a benefit.
  • 3 9
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:19) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: oh jeez, you got me good you sucker. I feel like I’m talking to a 12 year old.
  • 3 9
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:19) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: "The foregoing data show that masks serve more as instruments of obstruction of normal breathing, rather than as effective barriers to pathogens. Therefore, masks should not be used by the general public, either by adults or children, and their limitations as prophylaxis against pathogens should also be considered in medical settings." - worldhealth.net/news/masks-are-neither-effective-nor-safe-summary-science
  • 2 8
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:20) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: I have yet to see you present any facts
  • 1 9
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:25) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: maybe if you act like an adult people will treat you like one.
  • 9 0
 @Rageingdh: Are you saying that into a mirror dude? Those with mature minds don't regard Fox News as a beacon of truth.
  • 3 11
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:35) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: I don’t believe a god damn thing that’s said on the national news because I can actually think for myself. But you truly have the mentality of a child.
  • 10 0
 @Rageingdh: You can think for yourself but believe conspiracy bullshit. Nice one.
  • 2 8
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:39) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: which conspiracy would you be speaking of?
  • 2 7
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:42) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: Ok agree to disagree. We both have different sources and different opinions derived from different lives and political stances. But the point is that these lockdowns and closing businesses is ruining people's lives. The government needs to step back and let people decide what is best for their own health, we are one of the most educated generations ever and yet the government won't let people decide what is best for themselves and their families? That doesn't sound like freedom to me. I think we need to educate people on the risk and let them handle it. It they think that it isn't a risk to them and their family, let them live their lives. If they think the risk is great, let them stay home, work from home, not go to large gatherings, and be cautious. We are taking millions of years off our lives by living like we are. - gbdeclaration.org . The government doesn't have the right to tell someone that they are not allowed to make a living.
  • 2 8
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:43) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: "We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza."
"Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity." From the Great Barrington Declaration
  • 10 0
 @Rageingdh: You appear to subscribe to the notion that masks don't help manage the spread of Covid in line with many conspiracy theories, and in line with very very few medical professionals.

You cite Fox News as being a credible news source (then u-turn) when they have peddled conspiracy theories about Covid, until they realised that they were helping Covid gain ground and u-turned.
  • 1 8
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:58) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: FYI, buzz words like overwhelming majority is not science. Science has to be proven 100%. I only cited Fox News as being as credible as any other slimy news network out there.
  • 8 1
 @Boxmtb: Saving lives shouldn't be seen differently due to different political stances.

The fact that all governments from all political persuasions are implementing lockdowns out of necessity - not desire speaks volumes but some choose not to listen. No-one wants them or enjoys them, and they damage each respective country's economy almost beyond comprehension, and yet they all see it as a necessary precaution to reduce needless loss of life.
Any time precautions have been relaxed (Thanksgiving, Xmas, schools re-opening, the UK government's unfortunately named "Eat Out to Help Out" campaign, gatherings of any sort) cases have spiked. In the UK, all countries have just gone to the most severe lockdown experienced so far as a result of increased cases due previously relaxed conditions.
  • 7 0
 @Boxmtb: That approach would only work if those who are less at risk (but not free from risk - no-one is) were able to go through life completely removed from others at greater risk. That's not possible/practical and is exactly the reason that Schools in the UK are closing again due to a spread of infections from school to homes which then spreads further. The herd immunity theory has badly backfired in Sweden partner.sciencenorway.no/epidemic-health-healthcare/comparing-norway-and-sweden-norwegian-coronavirus-measures-reduced-hospitalizations-drastically/1701510

Re the Great Barrington Declaration - www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30555-5/fulltext20
  • 7 0
 @Rageingdh: Science is theory based until fact can be established. There can therefor be a range of differing theories until fact is established. Overwhelming majorities are relevant in this context, and are not buzzwords, but simply words.
  • 3 2
 Lockdowns aren't a necessity, they are a last resort to buy time. See my earlier post above. That countries resort to such an emergency measure nearly a year (or more, depending on where you live) after the initial outbreak yet do little to none to actually improve peoples health (again, my earlier post) is pretty sad. If even the WHO advices against lockdowns (see link below), whose advice are they following to still push them (and again, don't do anything to solve the underlying problem)?

www.westernjournal.com/official-lockdowns-not-primary-strategy-control-covid
  • 4 1
 @vinay: When we have no other options (where we are right now) a last resort and a necessity are not mutually exclusive. Cases spoke when people mix, and slow under lockdown where the lockdown is adhered to. Problem is that often they are not - we've seen massively divergent trends in spread of cases in the UK due to differing adherence to lockdowns.
  • 1 6
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 8:30) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: you certainly have drank the kool-aid.
  • 7 0
 @Rageingdh: Funnily enough I see it the other way round.
  • 1 7
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 8:41) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: your originality is over the top. I’m so glad that I actually grew up.
  • 7 0
 @Rageingdh: yep, look at you. 45 and all grown up, with a misspelled username, spending 3 hours of your life touting conspiracy theories on a bike website. we could all learn from your shining example
  • 3 3
 @davechopoptions: Did you read my first comment in this thread? I think that pretty much everyone here agrees that lockdowns, social distancing etc do have (massive) impact on (mental) health, social development and economics. The disagreement is whether it proportional to what it is trying to solve/avoid/realize. I'm not necessarily diving into that pit. My point is more that no one really loses if we (societies, governments etc) invest in improving (western) health. Because frankly, the western world is sick AF. With all our resources, people still manage to end in hospital not because of what they lack but because of what they consume. Sugar, loads of it. And tobacco. No one would lose if people would ditch that and live healthy instead. No one, except maybe for these industries but they already knew what they were doing even well before covid. Yet what have we seen. Actual advice (even here as header on Pinkbike) to ride safely to avoid the hospital, to avoid intense training so that we have the reserves should we get ill. But have we seen any urge given at all to stop smokers, to stop people eating candy and crap. Sports stores are closed because they aren't essential but a liquor store is open because beverages are essential. Look, it makes it pretty f*cking hard to even try to adhere to "rules" when these rules don't even seem to be made to be effective. Why resort to destructive measures when you don't try the harmless ones? Vitamin D3 has always been known to help regulate the immune system (so that your immune system doesn't overreact and destroy you when you're being infected, which happens to those who end up in hospital with covid). Then they say "yeah but too much D3 causes too much calcium in the arteries" and pull it out of context. No, D3 is fat soluble and naturally comes with K2. Don't take it in isolation, take K2 along with it and the calcium ends up in your bones where it belongs. Simple basic stuff that's cheaper than a vaccine. A large number of people who die because of covid die because of a fungus infection. There is a cure for that but because it is still being used in agriculture, the fungus is already resistant. It's use in agriculture was already strongly advised against (and I think even banned) but it was still being condoned by the government despite protests from the opposition. I'm reading the debates in the parliament now and the government is still dodging these questions with "we'll have to look into it" and "we still need to ensure we produce enough food" whereas it is actually this intensive agriculture that is the problem.

So yeah, last resort is what you use in an emergency. Like what you have early in the outbreak. We're no longer there, we're about a year in now. We can't talk of "no other options" if we haven't even tried the options I mentioned above (including my first post). And I don't think it is even speculative that these should help a good bit if you consider the number of obese and diabetic people with covid that ends up in hospital (aside from those obese and diabetic that end up in hospital even without covid). Yes it may be slightly slower than some measures they currently resort to but then gain, this has been going on for nearly a year. You can't solve a long term problem (poor western health) with short term solutions. And you gain no credibility forcing short term solutions if you're not even trying to realize the long term ones.

TL;DR: How the f*ck did you scroll all the way down this thread then?
  • 1 6
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:00) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: the flu is more of a danger for those under 20 than covid
  • 5 0
 @Boxmtb: birds dont fly they swim through the air
  • 2 6
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:04) (Below Threshold)
 @davechopoptions: its not the cases that matter, it's the deaths, young people might get the virus, but they will very rarely die from it, 92 percent of covid deaths are from 55 and older. I'm saying that we let those with extreme minimal risk live their lives
  • 1 5
flag Boxmtb (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:08) (Below Threshold)
  • 2 1
 @vinay: Yes and fully agree that there are broader health issues - particularly in the US and UK re obesity and inactivity that need tackled head on rather than ignored, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be tackling Covid itself. Sadly the idea of a coherent approach by either of those countries' respective governments re general health is optimistic at best - look at the fat f*cks "in charge" of both... Trump believes exercise to be bad for you for Christ's sake.
  • 3 0
 @Boxmtb: And I responded to that above - it's flawed.
  • 6 2
 @Boxmtb:And those under 20 with Covid are a great danger to their older friends, relatives, and other people they interact with.
  • 2 5
 @davechopoptions: I'm not saying we let them go to nursing homes, I'm saying that they should be allowed to go to schools, and sports, and other activities, where there are very few to no older people who are at risk
  • 5 1
 @Boxmtb: But you can't avoid their subsequent interaction with parents (at greater risk) who then go on to mix with others. Unless you can 100% isolate them, then it doesn't work, and if you were to 100% isolate them, they'd be existing in an alternate lockdown.
  • 7 0
 @Boxmtb: Not that I am a Newsom supporter, but the French Laundry is technically an OUTDOOR RESTAURANT.

Even though I get tested weekly (30+ times so far - virtue signal sent), I wear a mask out of respect to the more vulnerable, not to protect myself. It's a tiny sacrifice that may be very beneficial. If some people can't stand not showing their lipstick and fishlip injections, that's on them.

Y'all are some wild netbangers.
  • 2 1
 @davechopoptions: I realize it is easy to lose track of different perspectives here but I meant to say that the pandemic has two different issues.
- people get seriously ill and might die
- the medical system doesn't have the capacity to care for those who need it

I think obesity and diabetes in particular can often be avoided (but takes more than just pointing fingers and giving directions, as mentioned earlier). Solving or reducing this issue would both relieve the medical system and also makes that fewer people who are infected actually become seriously ill (hence solving that would also relieve the medical system). See, that might be where perspectives differ. I don't necessarily believe that we need to ban the virus, we just need to avoid that too many people get (seriously) ill and/or overload the medical system. Sure, banning the virus may realize that too but it is just much harder to do and less effective than just make the people healthier. And healthy people will also be able to deal with the next very different pandemic whereas the current vaccine will not. You're going to need to start all over again. Do people actually realize this? That the "lockdown and passively wait for your vaccine" strategy only works for the current virus (and maybe some derivatives) whereas making people stronger is something that will most likely help us in most cases.

In this discussion I've often read that young people are less likely to get seriously ill but it isn't just youth. It is health. Youth has that, but you can train and maintain your health for longer if you just take a little care. My dad is 76 now and he recently said to me that covid affects your respiratory system but if you train your breathing then you'll be likely fine and strong enough to get through it. And I actually believe he'll be fine as I already had read this article (linked below). Is it a guarantee? No (and this may be a tough one for some), nothing in life is guaranteed. A vaccine won't give you warranties either. But there are different ways to live a life. Isolate yourself and hope for the best or just get strong, move on and live with whatever comes your way. If people are allowed to smoke, if people are allowed to mess up their health with sugar and then come begging for medical care then by all means people should be free to just live healthy with the risk of contracting a virus or break a collarbone riding bikes.

www.suunto.com/sports/News-Articles-container-page/5-steps-to-therapeutic-breathing-to-combat-covid-19
  • 1 6
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:41) (Below Threshold)
 @huckschwinn: I wasn’t aware that a user name could be misspelled. Could you please tell me where my mistake was made? I’m also still waiting for you to actually produce anything other than an opinion.
  • 5 0
 @vinay: I agree with much of what you say, but believe that Covid needs too be tackled first, and then begin the slow process of changing peoples eating and exercise habits - that will take a generation at least.

Covid has certainly shone a light on the underlying health issues here in the UK. For the first time that I remember in my 50 years, there have been infomercials on TV highlighting the need to change lifestyle - both to take the pressure off the NHS and to reduce the seriousness of Covid if caught. It will take time though.
  • 1 3
 @suspended-flesh: he was caught dining inside in close proximity,
  • 2 3
 @davechopoptions: Because you put a lot of posts down here, to put it in context I quote you here:
"
And those under 20 with Covid are a great danger to their older friends, relatives, and other people they interact with.
"
Younger people are typically asymptomatic so maybe I'm drawing this slightly out of context by extending it beyond the limited age group and yet exclude the symptomatic below 20yolds. But overall I think this implies I'm extending the group. So there, have you found any reports of asymptomatic people infecting others? All I've found was this research by Nature of post-lockdown Wuhan:

www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

I quote from the abstract:
" There were no positive tests amongst 1,174 close contacts of asymptomatic cases. "

Further down near the end of "discussion":
"
In summary, the detection rate of asymptomatic positive cases in the post-lockdown Wuhan was very low (0.303/10,000), and there was no evidence that the identified asymptomatic positive cases were infectious.
"

In between they go a bit more in dept about the asymptomatic cases but as it includes graphs etc it is best to just visit the actual article I linked to. I'm just curious now what research proves that asymptomatic cases have been infectious.
  • 1 3
 @davechopoptions: Oh, it is incredibly hard to keep up with the discussion. That said, I appreciate your input and accept that we might disagree. Let's say I'm responding to your comment just below my previous one, you may have created a couple more in the mean time Wink .

I may be optimistic saying that it shouldn't take as long. Heck, I think it will take more for social distancing to land (and I brace for the impact on kids' social development if it does). Even though I've always been active I think I've definitely changed my perception on what food is healthy and what is not. As I teen I just thought "fat is bad and complex carbohydrates are good". My view is much more nuanced now. It doesn't take generations (I'm 41 now) but it does take critical thinking. You don't need to take everything for granted but you need to be able to follow a reasoning and decide for yourself whether it makes sense or whether it is flawed. I think this is where it hurts in the covid discussion. In the public discussion any statement against the "rules and measures" is labeled "conspiracy theory" whereas I'm not confirmed my government has a hidden agenda, I just think they're stupid and ignorant. Really, it doesn't need to take a generation for change to come. If we can stop artist from performing their music, we surely can stop the sale of tobacco. If we can put labels on tobacco packaging of how ill it makes people, we can surely force big labels on product with excess processed sugars. "Sugar makes you fat, slow and weak". Pretty sure it will work. This is serious now, as the virus has now revealed how weak those people have actually become.
  • 4 2
 Our mayor was "caught" there the next day as well. Who cares? Politicians are generally hypocrites. I'd rather have a professional, diplomatic liar than a Swamp-draining Outsider Stable Genius Covfefe Pirate.
  • 3 1
 @huckschwinn: It's actually just a handful of prolific ones. Honestly, it's encouraging how much blow back they're getting. Such truly despicable people, I wish there were more of a price for them than just comment world prison.
  • 5 0
 @ryan189: christ mate are you ok? Have you tried not reading the internet for a bit? It’s all made up nonsense you know
  • 3 6
 @mobiller: Arrogant answer. "White Coat." If only the people on Watt Street didn't go to ivy league schools and get CFA's and MBA's, 2008 Financial crisis would have never happened. Take off the white coat, and the suit and tie, and you have people - 96% identical to chimpanzees, genes and dna. This means people lie, cheat and steal. They are human. Title means little today, with government and institutions being so corrupt. Have a look at Tedros who headed the WHO, war criminal, fact. And, he covered 3 cholera outbreaks in Africa - this is why China groomed him. Ok, we are one world, one planet, I don't wish to insult you or fence with you - we are in this together. Just watch this. Promise me you'll stick to facts, logic and reason (and science). Moderna, is just part of the scam, a shell co that only went public in 2018. Gates and Fauci financed this thing early on, and got the patent in 2019 on the virus (yes, the virus!). 2014 offshored from University of North Carolina Chapel Hill (Obama did this, credit given). It went to Wuhan Laboratories. All fact. This stuff is recorded in SEC filings, and well as U.S Patent filings (don't believe me - I encourage you to do your own research). But watch this vid: rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html

Peace to all, we are in this fight together. Remember, the Rona has a 99.98% survival rate (this aint' ebola). And, the PCR test is a total fraud (creating "cases"). 50-80% false positives. The inventor of PCR, shortly before his death said to never use as diagnostic. It's too strong. Forensics is what it's for - looking for a drop of blood in a hot tub. Guess what, they run forensics at only 15 cycles (amplified). Covid is being done at 35-40 cycles which is just insane - and it's why Austrian Parliament did a live test on a can of coke, and it came out positive. They've also tested papaya, gasoline and water, and all came out postiive. This is a sham. Also, dead bodies being tested or covid. Cyclist gets hit by a car, or heart attack victim gets the covid test. With false positives being so high a car crash victim gets registered as covid death. U.S. death count should probably be 100k max. It's s total scam. Science. Watch the vid brothers:
rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html
  • 5 9
flag ryan189 (Jan 5, 2021 at 13:19) (Below Threshold)
 @Peskycoots: Darling. I stick to facts, logic, reason and science. Heard of the New England Journal of Medicine, or the lancet. They all concur with what I'm saying now. People are waking up. Here's what I just wrote to another guy. I don't wish to insult you brother, we are in this together. But read this. Please, we are in this together. I'm an ex-stock broker wore polo my whole life,and drove fancy cars - I'm not your typical hippy candidate. I need to be proven to, to believe. I believe now. This stuff below is all fact proven in U.S. Patent laws and SEC filings.

Also, watch the video I suggest:White Coat." If only the people on Watt Street didn't go to ivy league schools and get CFA's and MBA's, 2008 Financial crisis would have never happened. Take off the white coat, and the suit and tie, and you have people - 96% identical to chimpanzees, genes and dna. This means people lie, cheat and steal. They are human. Title means little today, with government and institutions being so corrupt. Have a look at Tedros who headed the WHO, war criminal, fact. And, he covered 3 cholera outbreaks in Africa - this is why China groomed him. Ok, we are one world, one planet, I don't wish to insult you or fence with you - we are in this together. Just watch this. Promise me you'll stick to facts, logic and reason (and science). Moderna, is just part of the scam, a shell co that only went public in 2018. Gates and Fauci financed this thing early on, and got the patent in 2019 on the virus (yes, the virus!). 2014 offshored from University of North Carolina Chapel Hill (Obama did this, credit given). It went to Wuhan Laboratories. All fact. This stuff is recorded in SEC filings, and well as U.S Patent filings (don't believe me - I encourage you to do your own research). But watch this vid: rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html

Peace to all, we are in this fight together. Remember, the Rona has a 99.98% survival rate (this aint' ebola). And, the PCR test is a total fraud (creating "cases"). 50-80% false positives. The inventor of PCR, shortly before his death said to never use as diagnostic. It's too strong. Forensics is what it's for - looking for a drop of blood in a hot tub. Guess what, they run forensics at only 15 cycles (amplified). Covid is being done at 35-40 cycles which is just insane - and it's why Austrian Parliament did a live test on a can of coke, and it came out positive. They've also tested papaya, gasoline and water, and all came out postiive. This is a sham. Also, dead bodies being tested or covid. Cyclist gets hit by a car, or heart attack victim gets the covid test. With false positives being so high a car crash victim gets registered as covid death. U.S. death count should probably be 100k max. It's s total scam. Science. Watch the vid brothers:
rumble.com/vb52tn-truth-about-fauci-with-robert-f.-kennedy-jr.-and-david-e.-martin.html
  • 8 2
 @ryan189: what if you are being lied to, by the people that are telling you you’re being lied to... dun dun duuuuuuun
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Dats tuff !!!
  • 4 0
 @Thirty3: you're saying "fck that" regarding public health directives?
  • 1 0
 @vinay:
No Life Shaq - Dats tuff !
  • 5 0
 @Rageingdh: Statistics don't work like that son...virtually nothing is 100 percent. unless you understand phrases like "probability" and "confidence intervals" don't start schooling people on what science is or isn't. My guess is you haven't taken any university level "science".
  • 1 6
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 14:35) (Below Threshold)
 @greener1: actually science is 100% son. It either is 100% or it isn’t 100%. No in between. Nice try though.
  • 2 3
 @Peskycoots: Who's being lied to? Look, a PCR test detects pieces of DNA or RNA, that's what it does. Ideally it reacts to a couple of genes that are typical for the virus. So if everything goes well, that's what you'll find. The intact virus, a dead virus or only a tiny piece of virus. So for forensic research, that's good. For actually making a proper diagnosis as to whether someone is infected (let alone infectious), not at all. It was never certified to make medical diagnoses. See, they're taking traces from nasal swab. That's technically the outside, the first (passive) barrier. It is supposed to protect against stuff. Just because you've got dishwashing liquid on your hands doesn't mean it is inside your body. Same goes for what's found on the nasal swab. Now as for the PCR test that's being used, there is a good bit wrong about it too. The concentration of primers is way too high. It should be about 200nM, it is more in the range of 800nM. Which makes it adhere to more than what it is supposed to adhere to. The primers are "wobbly" (which implies they're insufficiently specific to the intended gene sequence) and the processing anealing temperatures are too far apart. And indeed, the amplification is too high. Not sure whether it should be 15, I thought more in the range of 25 to 30. But either way, this fall they increased amplification to 45 or so. Just like cranking the pre-gain or distortion level on your guitar amplifier (or stacking several dimed distortion pedals in series), you're getting all kind of noises even when you're not playing. The amplification of PCR tests shouldn't be at that level. It is too high. Not just that. If you change the protocol like that you can no longer compare numbers (positives) counted now to the numbers found spring 2020.

Ok look, this is a lot for a bicycle website so let's focus on the first part. A PCR test detects pieces of DNA or RNA (dead or alive). Is there anyone who disagrees on this? So what it has found is at least something that is not inside the body. It could be that nothing entered the body. It could be that the person has been infected, has already recovered and is clearing harmless remains of the virus, it could be that someones nasal swab has caught these remains from someone elses sneeze but as these are dead virusses, these would never infect anyway. And yeah, it could be a life virus of which some have indeed infected the person (or which is being excreted by the person, so who is indeed infectious).
  • 6 0
 @Rageingdh: Nope, not a "try" that's how it is. You're trying to apply indisputable mathematic principles such as 1+1=2 and thinking that's how all "science" works. You know what real ignorance is? When you don't know what it is you don't know. Keep learning, and don't be afraid to let your mind change.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Many would take issue with categorizing a virus as dead or alive. Is it alive in the first place? It's viable for replication or not but is it alive? Perhaps it's a version of ancient life.
  • 1 7
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 17:44) (Below Threshold)
 @greener1: science as described by Webster’s dictionary:

a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws.

You can talk about theories and hypothesis all you want, but that ain’t science.
  • 8 0
 @Rageingdh: I don't think I mentioned "theories and hypothesis" but while we're on the subject those things are certainly part of scientific method. How's this example: We observe that people who smoke often get cancer. Although we theorize smoking causes cancer, we can't just say "smoking causes cancer" with 100 percent certainty because it could be just correlation not causation. So how to you demonstrate what you think you know? In short, you gather data, apply a reliable recognized statistical analysis method and see if you can demonstrate with statistical significance above a 95 percent confidence interval that relationship that seems to occur. It's based on a theory and then testing that hypothesis. Then, you can provide reliable advice to the public that it appears smoking is strongly linked to development of certain cancers; however, I still can't tell you with 100 percent certainty that if you smoke, you will get cancer. Because some people smoke all their lives and do not in fact get cancer...when it comes to public health this is but a snapshot of how scientific method is applied. Do you understand, or are you going to send my a line from the Oxford dictionary next?
  • 1 8
flag Rageingdh (Jan 5, 2021 at 20:39) (Below Threshold)
 @greener1: theories and hypothesis are speculation, which is all you’ve been doing. It is fun educating the educated, and I do appreciate your derogatory demeanor.
  • 7 0
 @vinay: I’m not saying you’re a conspiracy nut, I’m merely pointing out you *sound* like a conspiracy nut.
  • 2 4
 @greener1: Yeah, I'm no expert in saying what it takes for something to call it "alive". Obviously a virus is a parasite that needs another organism to realize it's replication. Then again other parasites like some insects need other organisms too (though fair enough, their cells can replicate by themselves which viruses can't). Maybe we can't even talk about organisms as autonomous as we always need symbiosis. Doesn't a human body contain more bacteria than it contains actual body cells? Heck, even the body cells themselves need mitochondria who live in endosymbiosis. We obviously can't do without those! The term ancient life then. Viruses "live" now so it clearly isn't just ancient Wink .

@Peskycoots : The conspiracy theorist term is thrown around a lot these days to the point that it is taken out of context. A conspiracy theory believes that there is a conspiracy, like that someone created the virus for a certain gain or act of war. Or that governments are letting the pandemic expand so that the pharmacies make more money selling vaccines. Whether these are true or not, these are some pretty severe claims so I wouldn't throw these around unless I were very, very sure and had proof. At this point I don't so I'm not throwing such claims around. What I do say is that things are being done wrong. Back to my initial post in this thread, compared to lockdowns, social distancing etc, there are some good and relatively cheap measures that can be taken to reduce the load on the medical system and reduce the number of ills and deaths. That is, help (yes help) people to eat the good stuff (actual vegetables) and avoid the bad (processed sugar and tobacco). Now find a doctor in "western" society to tell me that this won't have a massive effect. From what I understand here on PB, we've got loads of dentists on bikes here. We sure must have doctors too. The doctors I've talked to so far told me that easily well over half the number of people in hospitals (with and without covid) wouldn't be there if they'd live healthy. So if one issue is that the hospitals don't have the capacity to deal with a pandemic (so that people with covid can't get adequate care), why not address the bigger issue? Yes it might take a lifestyle change (tobacco, fastfood and sugarry stuff is image loaded) but it is much easier (that is, with little to no negative consequences) to realize than a lockdown and for people to maintain 1.5m in their mosh pits when they watch the live stream of their favorite metal band. I've seen more than a few people ditch smoking overnight when they started a study or a new sport. Yes you need something to fill the gap but the alternatives are readily available. Get a bike, paddle board and/or guitar and learn something new. Oh man it is tempting to regurgitate my posts above but obviously I shouldn't as it is already there. The main response I should have made to you is, if someone is a conspiracy theorist it implies that said theorist accuses others (government, instances etc) of a hidden agenda typically at the expense of others. I don't accuse. I do say the approach is inadequate, single sided, faulty and stupid. As for a hidden agenda they might have, I'm not making claims at all. So as such, I don't see how I could be labeled a conspiracy theorist.
  • 6 2
 @vinay: you know when a toddler gets all excited and rambles on for ages about a topic they just discovered and then they run out of facts and just start making stuff up and padding out the story in a way that feels right and seems correct but the main point is to keep talking and revel in the feeling of being knowledgeable? I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, I’m just saying that’s what it sounds like you’re doing
  • 3 3
 @Peskycoots: Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
  • 6 0
 @Peskycoots: you won this thread, thank you for your service.
  • 5 0
 @Peskycoots: Well played good sir! Or shall I say...SAVAGE.
  • 5 0
 @vinay: You’d do well to take it to heart. Seriously.
  • 4 0
 @greener1: Pretty good, but unless I’m reading it wrong I think you have one thing backwards. Things start out as hypothesis and then, through testing and experimentation utilizing the scientific method, become theories.

I’m pretty sure the hypothesis that Rage is suffering from mental illness has now progressed to theory.
  • 1 3
 @huckschwinn: Never realized threads could be won but if so then of course @peskycoots, congrats you just won a thread. Now make yourself a nice trophy, enjoy!

Now for the rest on here, so far I've found two reports on how infectious asymptomatic people. The first I already linked to earlier but I'll link again and add a second one.
- www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w
- www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0954611120301669?via%3Dihub (the link being like that as I found it through pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32513410)

Both reports haven't found asymptomatic people to be infectious so if anyone could link to a decent research article with the opposite findings then by all means post the link here. I acknowledge that some are here to win threads but with that one now awarded, we can now focus on the relevant stuff.
  • 5 0
 @vinay: that is very clear. you're too into hearing yourself talk.
  • 1 3
 @huckschwinn: Let me see. In this thread I

- referred to a WHO advice
- linked to a training article on therapeutic breathing by a freediving professional
- linked to an article in Nature on how whether asymptomatic people infected with covid can (or are known to) infect others
- linked to an article on the same subject published in Elsevier
- called for articles that dispute what I've found so far

None of these articles were written by myself and obviously as for the articles I was calling for, these aren't written by me too. Indeed I added my own thoughts and other findings in my writing but have now said what needed to be said. This medium has more than enough room for others to share their views so please don't hesitate to do so as I'll indeed back off a little whilst others take their time to formulate their findings and theories. So even though I may not be writing as much here, I'll still be watching this thread interested to read, learn and possibly reshape my current view on things.

So for all those who weren't aware already, the stage is all yours Smile !
  • 4 0
 @vinay: And an N of 1 but chances are vanishingly small she's unique: www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201109/asymptomatic-covid-woman-shed-virus-for-70-days#1
  • 5 0
 @vinay: Oh hey, right on at the top of your Sciencedirect link: "Infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers was probably weak."

Important words: "SOME" and "PROBABLY".

So how did you possibly interpret that as "haven't found asymptomatic people to be infectious"???
  • 1 2
 @Chuckolicious: Eeee, dude, ok, just stop uploading links!
  • 3 0
 @HLEKTRON: Ha! It was for illustration purposes based on what he's obviously up to. But you're right, I think I've made my point. :-D
  • 2 2
 @Chuckolicious: OK, take your medal and stop it ! ( And don't respond to this comment, and thanks that you can understand me )!
  • 3 0
 After being suprised while checking PHYSICAL bikes, even if I already knew all the features, I would say, that Like:

Casstes, and Vinyl, and all those flash backs, These SHOWS, will come back stronger than anything!

1) You meet people that haven't seen for... what, Years??
2) You meet fantastic People... In person!
3) You have meaningful conversations, with bike freaks - LIKE YOU!
4) You have a weekend blast, outside of everything, eating, drinking... all this while seeing, smeeling and talking about bikes!


i could go on... but those 4, are more than enough to continue having Shows!
  • 4 0
 @TDMAN: The shows were always fun. I scored a ticket to the Death Grip big screen premier and got to party with Peaty and a bunch of other ppl. I even got Brendan to wonder what was wrong with my head. Tradeshow women rule too. That in person deal-making will survive in some form, I hope.
  • 4 3
 @vinay: f*ck it. just put everyone one on a mandated soylent green diet.


also, the obviousl solution is to simply let the disease do what it's going to do. let it ravage those that chose to not take care of themselves. two birds, one stone.
  • 2 1
 @vinay: Hey man, where'd you go? I gave you what you asked for and then you disappeared?
  • 2 2
 Hi @Chuckolicious,

first and foremost, thanks for posting the references I was asking for. As I mentioned in my previous post, I backed off a little as apparently some found my presence in this thread intimidating, which might keep them from posting their own views. Unfortunately I haven’t seen any other articles being posted or referred to, so I’ll delve into yours here.

uchealth:
This doctor indeed claims that covid does spread asymptomatic. He bases his claim on a study done in Singapore but even though he claims it is about asymptomatic spread, the article is actually about presymptomatic spread. Even though you can’t tell a presymptomatic from an asymptomatic person (as you don’t show any symptoms either way) there were some culprits in this study as also mentioned in the discussion. I quote from the linked Singapore study:
“The findings in this report are subject to at least three limitations. First, although these cases were carefully investigated, the possibility exists that an unknown source might have initiated the clusters described. Given that there was not widespread community transmission of COVID-19 in Singapore during the period of evaluation and while strong surveillance systems were in place to detect cases, presymptomatic transmission was estimated to be more likely than the occurrence of unidentified sources. Further, contact tracing undertaken during this period was extensive and would likely have detected other symptomatic cases. Second, recall bias could affect the accuracy of symptom onset dates reported by cases, especially if symptoms were mild, resulting in uncertainty about the duration of the presymptomatic period. Finally, because of the nature of detection and surveillance activities that focus on testing symptomatic persons, underdetection of asymptomatic illness is expected. Recall bias and interviewer bias (i.e., the expectation that some symptoms were present, no matter how mild), could have contributed to this.”
So even though this doesn’t rule out that asymptomatic (either presymptomatic or actualy asymptomatic) spread of this particular virus can occur, it isn’t quite solid proof either that it does. What’s unique about the situation in Wuhan (hence the studies done there) is that as there was such a strict lockdown, the researches could be fairly certain who had contact with whom and there were hardly any unknown contacts. So having the Singapore study this uchealth author refers to against the Wuhan studies I referred to, I still think the Wuhan studies are more reliable. I noticed your criticism; I’ll get back to that further down.

healthline:
Unfortunately they don’t offer a tracking-free webpage hence their page couldn’t be shown where I live (the EU). I haven’t read the page, sorry.

webMD:
The lady in question was indeed asymptomatic. What I couldn’t find in the article is whether she actually infected anyone. Which is what this discussion was about, whether an asymptomatic infected person is infectious.

medpagetoday:
The statement there is more or less similar to the one from the Singapore study. I quote “the findings don't support notions that asymptomatic patients are less likely to transmit the virus, or stop transmitting it sooner than those with clear symptoms”. In other words, the article can’t be used to support what I’ve found so far. However, the findings (in “your” article) don’t support the opposite either. It just isn’t what the report was about.

On your response to the articles I linked to:
First of all, thanks for reading these. As for the one quoted from, the full quote from the conclusion is “In summary, all the 455 contacts were excluded from SARS-CoV-2 infection and we conclude that the infectivity of some asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carriers might be weak.” where the “455 contacts” mentioned were close contacts of the identified asymptomatic cases. So in other words, the identified asymptomatic cases didn’t infect any of their close contacts. The research in “nature” was larger, yet there again (and I quote from the abstract) “There were no positive tests amongst 1,174 close contacts of asymptomatic cases.” and further down “In summary, the detection rate of asymptomatic positive cases in the post-lockdown Wuhan was very low (0.303/10,000), and there was no evidence that the identified asymptomatic positive cases were infectious.” The “important words” as you mentioned are there as that’s how you draw conclusions from a statistical analysis. You can never say something with absolute certainty just because you haven’t found the opposite. In this case, they can’t say with absolute certainty that asymptomatic cases aren’t infectious just because they haven’t found a single case (in a research of 445 contacts and one with 1174 contacts) where it was. So that’s where the word “probably” came from.

Either way, by now it has become time to move on from this thread, no in the very least for those who feel I’ve already said too much here Wink . I will no longer check this thread from now on. But I appreciate what you’ve brought forward and of course congratulate you on the medal @hlektron got you Smile .

@conoat: No, I don’t believe this is the way to go. Yes a healthier lifestyle is going to help loads as I mentioned earlier. However, everyone knows that by now. Maybe not necessarily corona related but definitely that a healthy lifestyle keeps you from getting ill, keeps you from having to rely on medical care etc. Yet loads of people still don’t manage to get that right. Which implies that apparently they can’t and simply telling them or blaming them is not going to help. There are different forces at play.
One is simply economic. Low value and single sided nutrition (refined carbohydrates, cheap fats etc) is simply cheaper than a varied and healthy diet. So if you want to solve that, you need to remove the economic burden. Heavily tax the bad food and use that to remove tax from the proper vegetables etc.
Another one is that like so much addictive stuff, it triggers the reward system. Which has helped people in ancient times (if you’ve found a calorie-rich nutrient it could save you) so that’s how evolution eventually wired us. But it got us in trouble in recent years and leaving it up to evolution to solve that isn’t quite ethical. So you need to lower the reward you get from sugary stuff (unattractive/offensiver packaging like they now have for tobacco products etc) and help people find a rewarding replacement. Sports can get you that. But sadly the more affordable ones (ball sports etc) are often banned now as you are no longer allowed to gather in groups. The motivation is gone. So definitely if there is one thing governments are supposed to do (other than banning people doing affordable and otherwise healthy activities) is actually help these people stay healthy. Not just yell and blame. Help them with a motivation that is stronger and pulls them away from an unhealthy lifestyle. And especially as reducing the load on medical care is a national (or even global) urgency, it is well worth starting there.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Eek you gat a +1 just for being willing to type out that long of a response tup
  • 5 0
 @rosemarywheel: Haha! Agreed, though many of his assertions regarding the science are totally off base. But hey, he knows better than the people who spent a decade or two in school, becoming experts in things like virology and infectious diseases. And that's because he did some Googling! Sigh...
  • 5 0
 @Chuckolicious: ain’t no knowledge like YouTube knowledge
  • 2 1
 @vinay: there is nothing more ethical than evolution
  • 37 0
 the exhibition industry as a whole is fucked.
  • 14 0
 Along with many other industries
  • 15 3
 @cains08: Along with 75% of restaurants
  • 23 1
 see also; evening entertainment industry, touring music industry, dance music industry, theatre industry, public transport, commercial office accommodation, significant portions of the tourist industry and our respective health service providers.

Still we can all buy discounted extension leads from Amazon and get a poorly paid dude to bring us a lukewarm big mac

#allhailthenewnormal
  • 45 73
flag conoat (Jan 4, 2021 at 14:49) (Below Threshold)
 @pistol2ne: 75% is a low estimate.

all for a disease with a morbitity of .01% if you're under 65. wild f*cking times....

furthermore, the average lifespan in the UK is 81.16yrs. the average age of a covid death in the UK? 82 years.

they have bamboozled you. they stole literally billions of life-years(1 year of life per human) from the planet, to "save" people that on average are already dead.
  • 45 17
 @conoat: Let me be the first to respond to your idiotic statements. My cousin was a 38 year old nurse who died of Covid. Several others in her hospital in Los Angeles have died. None were "already dead." If you really believe what you wrote, you're a fool.
  • 33 19
 @conoat: You're gonna get downvoted to oblivion but trust me, I get it.

Industries will eventually bounce back but personal livelihoods will be ruined forever. It's political suicide to admit you're wrong or something you propose doesn't work. Hell, you guys just got put back into covid jail....FOR THE 3RD TIME. Ya know, because the first time worked so well. California is indefinitely in jail.

I feel most bad for the 30m kids in the us that get their only meal from public schools, and the same children that will literally lose MILLIONS of years of life due to non in person learning. LINK: thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/499394-the-covid-19-shutdown-will-cost-americans-millions-of-years-of-life. Our over reach and relinquishing of civil liberties here in the states will be looked upon extremely poorly in the very near future all while the clowns that championed it stay silent and say they never wanted it. I'm keeping the god damn receipts.
  • 7 0
 The company owned by the world’s richest man seems to be doing just fine and going from strength to strength. Irony there somewhere.
  • 26 32
flag pistol2ne (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:19) (Below Threshold)
 @Marquis: Your 38 year old cousin passing away from working in a hospital is a tragedy, no getting around that. His statement is still correct, your cousin is an outlier, and I know that's not something that anyone wants to hear. Not weighing/acknowledging the risks or calling people covid deniers because they see the first hand damage being done by lockdowns and draconian governmental measures is just as bad. Suicides are through the roof, businesses will never come back (unless you're walmart and amazon). The soul of cities, costal cities none the less (sans FLORIDA) , are being sucked out.

Here: www.statnews.com/2020/12/23/put-straw-man-pandemic-denial-out-of-its-misery

Also, weird to see the ratios now coming in. 5 months ago when I was against lockdowns I'd get downvoted 20 to 1.
  • 3 1
 A couple thoughts:
1) restaurants/pubs and clubs, etc. - although many if not most (depending on where they are) will die off, there will be a new breed with new funding ready to jump in and fill the market as soon as there are strong indications that business can “return to normal”. Let’s just hope these are replaced with locally owned establishments and not Amazon pubs (you get the point). I would say you can apply this logic to most industries affected by COVID.

2) although the event and exhibition industry has taken debatably the biggest blow, keep in mind that many of the companies that run these events are very scalable in the sense that most of their core staff are seasonal, and a bulk of Human Resources that bring them to life are employed for less than 2 weeks or so. Also, most of these companies rent all of their event assets, contractors, service providers, etc. as well as the physical space they operate in.

All that said, it will be interesting to see what the appetite for these hard hit industries will be when we “return to normal”. I agree exhibitions are dying in general and this may be the straw that breaks the camels back - heck I’m sure many expos were scaling down anyhow and this is just a clear message to move on, but I have no doubt that events like festivals and races will come back simply because the appetite for them will survive.

My $.02
  • 23 14
 @Marquis: Sorry for your loss, so many of us have lost loved ones it's absolutely heart wrenching. A close family member passed a week ago Sunday, 58 years old.

My patience for conspiracy theorist idiots is done. Those that are spewing public misinformation have blood on their hands.
  • 7 21
flag OldScratchJohnson (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:23) (Below Threshold)
 @Marquis: Was your cousin obese? Serious question.
  • 17 10
 @OldScratchJohnson: Have you tuned into a fact based media source in the past 12 months? Serious question.

In the US? This is the number one source of death in your country. More than heart disease, car accidents. And there is still a large percentage of unaccounted annual deaths this year.

It's none of your f*cking business how thin his cousin was. My cousin was thin as a rail. To all of that are tuning into alternative facts media, keep your bullshit to yourself.
  • 8 13
flag ricochetrabbit (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:33) (Below Threshold)
 Well said @pistol2ne:
  • 10 15
flag pistol2ne (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:36) (Below Threshold)
  • 12 6
 @conoat: I feel for both you and @Marquis. Marquis’ tragedy (my condolences) illustrates the pandemic on an individual level and @conoat, you are likely very correct in your calculations. Such calculations come as a real shock because they show the pandemic for what it is to the vast majority of people. When you go to effort to understand the data, process the evidence and reach well rounded conclusions irrespective of how popular they might be, as the “messenger” you are an easy target, but certainly not idiotic.
Why might you ask are governments continuing to get it wrong with lockdowns, quarantines, testing etc, propaganda? It’s because doing a u-turn, being honest, admitting that the modelling was wrong, that lockdowns don’t work, and that they have ignored the evidence would be a very clear admission of guilt on behalf of the non-covid excess deaths, the decimation of economies and the massive infringements on our civil liberties. Let alone the sacrifice that has been forced upon our children, their well being, and their educations.
I can’t believe my first comment on here is about a f&ckin coronavirus and not fun stuff like bikes.
  • 8 14
flag 50percentsure (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:41) (Below Threshold)
 @pistol2ne: #1 eat me
#2 read a news report from literally any reputable news source. Please.
  • 20 19
 @Marquis: your anectodal loss, does not make a trend. your cousin was a statistical anomaly. Policy decisions for the whole of humanity shouldn't be made off of outliers.
  • 9 9
 @conoat: We're a year in on this and that's the deepest you can think? Even Trump's "sacrifice the old for the sake of the economy" idea died a few days in.
  • 5 11
flag conoat (Jan 4, 2021 at 15:52) (Below Threshold)
 @DirkMcClerkin: please, oh wise one....elaborate.
  • 11 19
flag stonant (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:01) (Below Threshold)
 @pistol2ne: hope you get it and die, I’ll be there to piss on your “outlier” grave
  • 7 6
 @conoat: It's not up to us to wade through your conspiracy theories get you up to speed on the facts of the world. Turn on the news, you've missed a bit.
  • 7 2
 @stonant: Thanks Man, I really appreciate that.
  • 7 9
 @brianpark might want to get in here and regulate some of these people. Yikes on this comment thread.
  • 5 9
flag 50percentsure (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:30) (Below Threshold)
 @pistol2ne: Do you realize the harm of saying bad words to an individual versus promoting Covid conspiracy theories over the internet? Facepalm
  • 9 8
 @50percentsure: Show me a conspiracy theory I posted.

Also, someone wishing for me to die from covid and then pissing on my grave is not the same as a bad word.
  • 2 6
flag ricochetrabbit (Jan 4, 2021 at 16:39) (Below Threshold)
 Which news?@mobiller:
  • 10 6
 @conoat: don’t know why the downvotes, guess it goes to show the vast majority doesn’t do their own research and downs whatever mainstream media dishes out.
Well said mate.
  • 2 5
 @joedave: Here's something even darker for anti lockdown. www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w28304/w28304.pdf

"These numbers correspond to 0.24% and 0.37% of the projected US population at the 15- and 20-year horizons, respectively. For African Americans, we estimate 180 thousand and 270 thousand excess deaths over the next 15 and 20 years, respectively. These numbers correspond to 0.34% and 0.49% of the projected African American population at the 15- and 20-year horizons, respectively. For Whites, we estimate 0.82 and 1.21 million excess deaths over the next 15 and 20 years, respectively. These numbers correspond to 0.30% and 0.44% of the projected White population at the 15- and 20-year horizons, respectively. These numbers are roughly equally split between men and women."
  • 6 4
 @Pinkleg1: or, you know. Lockdowns work. And when things get a bit better, restrictions get eased, which Morton’s interpret as go back to 100 percent normal and do stupid things like get together in enclosed spaces for extended periods of time (like bars, restaurants) then go and visit their families and the shot starts all over again, hospitals fill up and if nothing is done to control the spread all sorts of people who would have lived die easily preventable deaths because medical care becomes traced to the breaking point so governments, recognizing their dumb citizens just can’t behave reasonably without lockdowns, go back to lock down.
  • 10 11
 Quite ironic that all the rude and condescending comments on this thread come from people that think the cure is better than the disease while the most consoling and respectful comments come from those that think the cure is worse than the disease. It seems the first group of people actually care more about themselves than about others.
  • 8 7
 @pcmxa: Lockdowns work so well California is #1, in the wrong category....

Lockdowns work if you have a government like china or your country is an island. The us has neither, and thank god.
  • 12 4
 @pistol2ne: California isn’t number 1. Arizona is. California is in the top ten, but their cases are going down. Which is what happens starting two weeks after you lock down. And why governments lock down when things start to spike, because if you don’t geometric growth will let the whole thing get away.

Lock downs are a pretty blunt tool. And I don’t think the best one. I would prefer fairly strict limits on industries where groups of strangers are in the same interior space without masks for extended times bars, restaurants), reduced capacity in interior spaces where people are not around each other for extended periods and wearing masks (retail), and real enforcement of masks.

My state tried that the first lockdown, but many people didn’t take masks seriously so this time they went fairly draconian and made masks mandatory anywhere besides your own property and stores would be closed if they were found to be spreaders. Much higher percentage of people wearing masks and our numbers are improving.

It’s unfortunate that governments have to be draconian, but individuals don’t have the best view of this. You don’t. I don’t. Experts do. Have you looked at what would happen if this was allowed to just run wild? The bad options (mutations, a yearly cycle like the flu, but much deadlier, the number of chronically ill from permanent lung damage ( it’s not just a choice between die or be fine, there are all sorts of options in between) are pretty scary.

I feel for my friends who have lost loved ones, I feel for my friends in the medical field who have been going all out on this for months and months and are exhausted, I feel for children’s present and future, I feel for all the businesses and all their employees. This is so bad for so many. But I don’t think governments are doing any of this to save face or put on a show. I know people in city government, I know leaders, I work with health care professionals and epidemiologists, and they’re all trying to figure out how to make this the best it can possibly be. To save lives. And to save businesses. I think people acting purely politically is mostly a myth. I think even people who I completely disagree with have their reasons for believing what they do and they aren’t being disingenuous but rather probably just weighing variables differently. And that if people actually sat down and talked and said here’s what I know and what I want the world to be like rather than starting from any pro or con position much of this would be so different. But hey it’s the internet so I’m just an evil anti business libtard.
  • 5 6
 @pcmxa: I was gonna neg prop your comment until you called yourself an evil anti business libtard. Now I’m not sure if I should thumbs it up or not.
  • 5 0
 @Rageingdh: as both a person that owns and runs a business and a government employee, I’m often confused myself.
  • 8 8
 @pcmxa: Thanks for the well thought out post, I do appreciate it. I think we'd agree on a lot of things.

I can only speak to California and we locked down a month and half ago, 6 weeks. If you're going by per capita, it's currently a Tennessee but we are #1 in cases which is a comical point. Comical in the sense that people love to use statistics however appropriate to improve their talking points. Side note: I think we should replace trigonometry with statistics in highschool, this pandemic has shown it is very lacking.

You don't think government is doing this to save face politically? Maybe you should look up what Newsom, London breed, woman from that sits on health board in LA, Austin mayor, the list goes on and on of people not adhering to these lockdowns; Brix for god sake. If you think they're continuing extreme draconian lockdowns (IN CA, no schools in person and no outdoor dining) like, actually lockdowns not limiting, because they think it stops it I've got a bridge to sell you. Most people aren't that dumb, they can google the CDC 2007 respiratory pandemic playbook with their time inside and see what is suggested. If there hadn't been absorbent amount of people implementing the policies not adhering to them (laughably hypocritical) maybe I'd believe they'd be doing it because they think it works. Maybe people have become so apathetic to politics that they vote for people this stupid? I do think it has shown the importance of local government.

I too know government officials (local at least). I know one epidemiologist and they are the most terrified person I hang out with, prior to the pandemic too, this is their wet dream. I much prefer my buddies brother who is an infectious disease doctor, much more down to earth. The epidemiologists screaming fire (which it is, but they shouldn't be dictating policies) are the ones calling the shots though, at least in CA. I also have 3 doctors in my immediate family in states that have worked in "over loaded" hospitals, they aren't exhausted. They chose to work 5-6 12hr shifts a week as a profession, they are fine with it. Experts like fauci that completely botched the HIV epidemic is perceived as a god on one side of the argument. The same fauci that said HIV can spread indoors in causal environments. (I think he's done an okay job btw).

Lastly, I totally agree that if California's inept politicians actually sat down and talked about pros and cons they would almost certainly come to different decisions. Probably even decisions that people would agree with (sans the terrified mask Karens)! I agree with limiting things and banning indoor concerts or really large gatherings. California doesn't do that though, they take the easy dumb route while rich politicians send their kids to private schools, in person.
  • 2 5
 @50percentsure: point that finger at yourself son.
  • 1 5
flag mm732 (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:06) (Below Threshold)
 @50percentsure: define reputable lol
  • 1 4
 @mobiller: thats your problem. Corporate news =/ facts. None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free
  • 1 5
flag ricochetrabbit (Jan 5, 2021 at 7:20) (Below Threshold)
 Here’s the issue. Facts and numbers dont back up anything you just posted @pcmxa:
  • 3 6
 @DirkMcClerkin: No instead we are going with sacrifice the young and the economy for the sake of the old. Ever heard of the Great Barrington Declaration?
gbdeclaration.org
This is a declaration with 700,000 people and 13,000 public health scientists and 40,000 medical practitioners, It talks about the great damage we are doing to young people by keeping them locked down and out of school. It talks about all the mental health issues related with these lockdowns
"We know that vulnerability to death from COVID-19 is more than a thousand-fold higher in the old and infirm than the young. Indeed, for children, COVID-19 is less dangerous than many other harms, including influenza."
"Those who are not vulnerable should immediately be allowed to resume life as normal. Simple hygiene measures, such as hand washing and staying home when sick should be practiced by everyone to reduce the herd immunity threshold. Schools and universities should be open for in-person teaching. Extracurricular activities, such as sports, should be resumed. Young low-risk adults should work normally, rather than from home. Restaurants and other businesses should open. Arts, music, sport and other cultural activities should resume. People who are more at risk may participate if they wish, while society as a whole enjoys the protection conferred upon the vulnerable by those who have built up herd immunity."
  • 1 7
flag OldScratchJohnson (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:37) (Below Threshold)
 @50percentsure: f*ck you you little bitch.
  • 1 7
flag OldScratchJohnson (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:38) (Below Threshold)
 @50percentsure: FU you little bitch.
  • 1 7
flag OldScratchJohnson (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:44) (Below Threshold)
 @Rageingdh: f*ck off
  • 6 0
 @pistol2ne: Well, sure, CA is number one in cases. It is also number one in population, so that is not surprising. Speaking of statistics, which I would totally support in HS, I love all the maps that get printed showing purportedly point x, when really they are just population density. Anyway, I guess I would agree that there are a few politicians that are doing lockdowns to save face, but it really hasn't been my personal experience. The ones I know are doing there sincere best to devise policy in the face of a lot of competing pressures. I don't always agree with them, but I also recognize it is one thing to live under a policy and another to set it. I have been a supervisor for dozens who themselves oversee hundreds and devising a policy that is fair and equitable and followable isn't nearly as easy as I would have thought, especially when the ultimate responsibility rests on your shoulders and you never have enough information, even though everything is within your field of expertise. I honestly can't imagine trying to run anything as complicated as a state. I think our governor has done a good job being clear about what evidence she is using, what levels of lockdown and restrictions there are and when they will both go into effect and be lifted. Some of the things I find to be silly (wearing masks outside when not near anyone), but overall they are reasonable and in line with what is know about how this virus works (by the way Beth Mole on Are Technica does a great job writing about this stuff, citing all the evidence). I guess I am tired of people claiming these broad automatic truths rather than starting with hey let's talk about where we are in regards to a particular situation and see if we can come to an agreement about that and where we want to be and find the nest way for the most people to get there. Everything has just gotten so radicalized, oh well. Best to you and yours!
  • 4 0
 @Boxmtb: So that 40,000 medical professionals? It is less than 5% of the US practitioners in 2016, and given that it is world wide is well under 1%. So maybe start your statement: Currently less than 1% of medical practitioners agree with the Great Barrington Declaration,
  • 1 1
 Bring on rapid testing, not mandatory vaccinations. I really can't see the uptake on vaccine being high enough to really change much, given the mistrust in the authorities these days.
Wanna come into this club /music festival? Stand in this room for 10 mins while your $10 test processes and we'll tell you if u can come in

Yes a bit more expensive for the individual, but peace of mind. Yes slow logistically for club or festival organizer, but at least they can put their event on

Something needs to happen to get life back to near normal, because I'm at a point of despair literally
. And I'm sure I'm not alone
  • 5 2
 @nordland071285: Rapid tests are still terrible for accuracy. You can do some more digging, but the gist is not too many false positives, but unacceptable amounts of false negatives. Vaccine is the only road back to semi-normalcy. If it takes too long to get back to normal, it is because of people's choices, nothing else. And there should be repercussions for that.
  • 1 0
 @Chuckolicious: what do you do with the people who won't vaccinate though? Or those who can't because of allergies /religious reasons etc

My view is that improving testing would be less of a blow to people's freedoms

And re the inaccurate testing results; the results are inaccurate in the correct way... I.e they are over sensitive rather than under.
So the tests don't miss people who have the virus, but they might say people have the virus when they don't.

It would be a pita if you were refused access to a festival you'd paid for because of a false positive, but some people might prefer to take that risk once a year than break their religious beliefs (for example)
  • 4 2
 @nordland071285: Hold up, no, the inaccuracy is with false negatives. So people think they're clear and go superspreading. As for what to do with people, don't conflate actual medical reasons with things like "religion". Nope, not allowed, we're no longer a superstitious bunch of savages. Somebody's sky god freedoms stop at my mucous membranes.

But simply having the majority of workplaces requiring, state-wide state worker requirements, and country-wide federal worker/military requirements, would probably get us over the line of herd immunity.
  • 2 0
 @Chuckolicious: that definitely needs fixing then! Even if the vaccine is made mandatory and you can't earn without having it, a reliable method of testing for it is obviously vital
  • 4 0
 @Marquis: sad to ear about your cousin. I do believe, if you have a certain number of friends (and not followers, or whatever!), you know some people or their relative, that have died with Covid19.

Even worse, is those that have health conditions that aren't Covid19, and have taken a beat, gotten worse, or worst, have died, due to Hospital limitations.

Never, ever thought, that will all hightech mambojambo worldwide, we would be in this place!
And even with vacin, the ecnomical part has made too much damages, that will require time...

Stay safe, be smart, and keep riding

Kudos too all health personal and care takers
  • 8 0
 I don't know about the rest of you, but I would much rather attend a show in person than read about it on the internet. Relationships and person to person contact is important. I think trade shows will continue to be relevant.
  • 8 0
 I'm going on a tirade because this thread is full of them and the people who wrote them are also full of something though it's clearly not attention to grammatical detail because I'm just so very passionate about this subject that I've been reading about on the internet to confirm my suspicions that something is very wrong with everything if you just take the time to read that obscure source on the internet then you'll probably agree unless your political leanings differ from mine in which case you are to be seen and treated as the enemy despite the face we're probably both white males with enough spare time and money to spend on a sport that should in theory unite every person that visits this site unless they voted in a particular manner and have a particular choice surrounding personal hygiene in which case they may or may not be the enemy that has been created in my mind by repeated exposure to a select intake of media that confirms my suspicions that everything is wrong so all I can do is WAKE UP every morning and drink coffee then play a session of Cyberpunk 2077 until the day warms up enough to ride the bike that I adore and which inspires me to visit this site to read and talk about bikes but instead I go on a long tirade about something that is related in the most tangential manner possible and for a brief shining moment I feel vindicated that I told another person who loves bikes that they are wrong
  • 4 0
 Is this a new copypasta?
  • 3 2
 Did you know you can use a period (".") to end a sentence? You can then hit the space bar and start typing again to begin a new one.
  • 2 0
 @mildsauce91: Pretty sure he did it deliberately, the second line of the tirade would seem to confirm this. Gotta admit, it would have been difficult to type without putting any punctuation in, bet @catlife had the voices in their head screaming!
  • 8 0
 The comment section on Pinkbike is definitely the place where you want to get all of your Covid information from.
  • 6 1
 Beer As long as remember to cross reference with YouTube influencers there's no way to go wrong.
  • 1 6
flag OldScratchJohnson (Jan 5, 2021 at 9:40) (Below Threshold)
 @50percentsure: your internet muscles are impressive. Dickhead..
  • 5 1
 @OldScratchJohnson: tup Serious question: Must be tired of winning so much, just so much winning.
  • 5 2
 @OldScratchJohnson: Where the hell did that come from? You drunk, skippy?
  • 7 0
 @brianpark: It's almost like you knew...
  • 4 1
 In fairness the 2019 show wasn’t great, if I’d paid for tickets I would have been disappointed, small hall, nothing new or particularly interesting except the great big Sick stand filled with some abominations of bikes and awkward looking guys trying to desperately save a sinking turd.

It was also a pita to get to unless you live in London.

Even without COVID it would have been a difficult one, trade show future doesn’t look good.
  • 1 0
 i went a few years ago. The only real draw was the chance to touch, sit on and get up close with potential bikes you might want to buy. Only to find out that wasnt possible, as bikes were up on stands, not available to sit on. So the only redeeming feature wasnt available. Back in the day the show at the NEC used to be amazing. All the brands and a massive trade village where you could pick up genuine bargains. What fond memories.
  • 4 1
 All - have your demented fun while you can and be thankful that PB still even tolerates comments on a post mentioning Covid, because on every other legit forum, this descent into our mental basements isn't tolerated. I think it's fun to see differing opinions, but these may not be allowed forever. Oddly, one forum I get a lot of the best and most helpful info from is the 3rd Gen 4Runner forum and it is the most chill and civil place. I've never seen a single incident there surrounding Covfefe, and believe me, some of my brothers and sisters there are a full 180 in Worldview. Stay Gold, Ponypeople!
  • 2 0
 These shows are a great place to make connections in the industry for many people. Meeing the people behind a brand was always a blast. People sharing the passion, creating new friends that led to new projects. Its too bad these industry party shows are dying. What a good time.
  • 2 0
 The exhibitions are bad and die for big compny, but are soo good for little company. there is no more interest to see in big fair the latest Specialized enduro. But is very interesting see little and different manufacurer of bike and equipment and wears gears ....
  • 1 0
 Trade shows in general are having issues and not just because of COVID. Attendance is down and some are relocating to try and gin up some new business. Motorcycles, technical trade shows, etc. So this doesn't surprise me. What's of more interest to me is how the Rona will change release schedules. Seems like we will see more manufacturers with differing release schedules and maybe even bikes with one groupo in one release and an equivalent in another. Crazy times and those who manage navigation will come out the other side, maybe with a new business model.
  • 6 1
 F*ck Covid
  • 4 1
 I feel for the pink bike comment moderator who has to wade through this muck and decide what is below threshold.
  • 1 9
flag Baller7756 (Jan 5, 2021 at 16:19) (Below Threshold)
 There should never be limitation on speech. Keep pushing down this road of speech suppression and you will certainly regret it.
  • 5 1
 I’m not pushing down any of your roads, @Baller7756. Quite happy up here riding my bike, thanks.
  • 4 1
 Time for virtual shows. Oculus or Vive virtual reality.
  • 17 0
 So do they just mail me my swag, or...?
  • 12 13
 @f*ckingsteve: how about no swag, and the companies either reduce their prices or increase their quality? Also I’d appreciate if ALL bike companies make their bikes available direct to consumers.
  • 11 2
 @unrooted: that would lead to the downfall of the lbs surely.
  • 2 0
 Sticking a TV to my face? Erm, no.
  • 2 0
 The Luddite in me is screaming.
  • 4 0
 @unrooted: Apologies, I cant work out if you want the end of the LBS or not.
  • 1 3
 @fatduke: I couldn’t care less.
  • 1 0
 @unrooted: Fair do's
  • 3 0
 Die Covid, die!! Happy New Year, all.
  • 33 31
 We need to get the world going again, these shutdowns are causing way more harm than good.
  • 19 34
flag ricochetrabbit (Jan 4, 2021 at 14:38) (Below Threshold)
 Facts. Shutdowns never were going to work. Just virtue signaling. @TRG22
  • 23 8
 Sure, and sacrifice grandma plus put anyone with a pre-existing condition in danger (and that’s a lot of people). Never mind the enormous strain that will be put on health care systems. I’ve heard so many people say this now until they catch Covid and end up in hospital. Sit tight, wait your turn to be vaccinated and protect though neighbour in the mean time. 350+K deaths in the US and counting. Thought you would have understood by now.
  • 2 0
 @vp27: Good point there, Mate. In a month and a half it will be the anniversary of not-hugging-my-best-friend-in-a-whole-%$*&#@*!!-year. Ow.
  • 7 0
 @vp27: We can continue at least some normal business while protecting our health-care system from being overwhelmed if we simply require masks anywhere inside and have sliding occupancy limits based on current hospital utilization. It seems reasonable to me that social distancing is achievable for something like a bike show. It's not like everyone is elbow-to-elbow, but it's likely that some vendors would drop out regardless.
  • 8 3
 @rosemarywheel: My 4 month old hasn’t met anyone besides his mom, dad and doctor and probably won’t until he’s close to one. Rather that, than put him and my relatives at risk. We’ve all got our sob stories.
  • 4 2
 @rosemarywheel: #twoweekstoslowthespread
  • 6 7
 People who die of COVID19 are: elderly, elderly /obese people with comorbidities, morbidly obese. The quarantine should be imposed for those groups, not for the whole of population. If you are healthy you are fine your symptoms will be mild or none. If young person dies it is always with underlying issues. I work in hospital. I don't expect you to believe me, read, read and do your own research, ask questions(this may be hard as you may be labelled conspiration theorist)
  • 3 0
 So the 40 yr old US Congress member from Louisiana had comorbidities and was severely obese? Huh, I didnt know you treated him in the ICU.
  • 2 0
 Jeez. Covid has really taken a toll on the industry hasnt it?
  • 1 0
 I think we're only seeing the start of it to be honest.
  • 1 0
 The only reason I used to go was to see Air to the Throne and that got cancelled a couple of years back.
  • 2 2
 They would've died because they left civilisation anyway, it's a shame the country will be unemployed and hungry soon. Ah well /care.
  • 1 1
 Ehrm, you mean Brexit? Sure I would have loved to see them continue as part of the EU but let's not dig out that dead horse. In the context of this website, I think the Brits have made a massively positive contribution to mountainbiking. Both in terms of racing as well as lifestyle. Heck, I doubt even Greg Minnaar would have made it if it weren't for Peaty. Either way, they've got enough civilisation left over there and the country is big enough to not die of hunger.
  • 2 0
 What a shame i love going to see all the new bikes and equipment.
  • 1 0
 The London show lived 3 years longer than it should have, good for them. This was always going to happen.
  • 1 0
 Political evangelizing in the comments, keeping it classy
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