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Mechanics Petition for Durability Standards & Repairable Budget Bikes

Jan 11, 2022
by Alicia Leggett  

A collection of bike mechanics, bike co-ops, and various nonprofit advocacy groups has started a campaign for more durable and repairable bikes.

The petition asks that the industry stop producing and selling bikes that won't last and can't be repaired: "These products are harmful to the environment, erode public confidence in the usefulness and joy of bicycles, and waste the money of the mostly poor and working-class people who buy them," it reads.

The differences are stark between the bikes made to last and those that aren't. Bikes that don't have long-term futures sometimes have design choices that prevent repairs such as riveted-on chainrings. One of the petition's early supporters, Mac Liman of Denver's Bike Together nonprofit shop and advocacy program, told Bicycle Retailer and Industry News that over time, she's started to see more and more bikes with threads that strip immediately and frames that fall apart at the welds. She also said one of the first things she teaches new mechanics is how to spot the bikes that can't be fixed - criteria that is outlined in a blog post about the issue.

The petitioners describe the practice of selling such bikes as predatory. All bikes sold are made to appear as if they'll be reliable, the petition explains, but the appearance of quality is deceptive, and nonprofit mechanics - particularly those who work at community bike shops designed to improve access to biking - are tired of telling their customers that their bikes are made too poorly to fix.

"Frankly, you should be ashamed of selling bikes to your customers that last 90 some riding hours," it continues.

The campaign was born from a discussion at last fall's Bike!Bike!, an annual conference for community shops, organizers, and advocates.


The petition's requests are as follows:

- Set a minimum durability standard for bicycles to last at least 500 riding hours before breaking down
- Design bikes to be serviceable and hold adjustment, with replaceable and upgradable components
- Stop creating and selling bikes that are made to fall apart


The petition is available here.

Posted In:
Industry News



343 Comments

  • 361 7
 And stop with the bullshit excessive packaging.
  • 20 0
 Odyssey bmx does it good, at least the consumer visible packaging anyway.
  • 29 55
flag tonkatruck (Jan 11, 2022 at 14:37) (Below Threshold)
 No carbon rims??? Those things crack and get tossed out. Then what? where does it go?
  • 39 1
 just make sure they don't put the UCI in charge of all the new rules and regulations...
  • 16 0
 @dirtyburger: +1 to Odyssey being the one company I trust for sh-t to never break while Im sending to flat.
  • 9 1
 @tonkatruck: makes a wonderful hula hoop for the kids... worlds most expensive hula hoop.
  • 2 0
 @dirtyburger: I've been impressed by their stuff recently too!
  • 21 2
 You’re going to need to cancel the whole unboxing video trend online first.
  • 148 1
 Deore and above, and equivalent components from Sram et al, are the bottom line for serviceability and durability. Everything above is good, anything lower is garbage. The neighborhood kids know I'm a cyclist with mechanic skills and they ask for help with their department store bikes. I HATE WORKING ON DEPARTMENT BIKES!! It's such a tough thing as you want to explain that you can't fix their bike because it's garbage and heaven forbid they doubt your skill, but you don't want to cause hurt feelings cause that's their pride and joy and all that mom and dad can afford...
  • 2 1
 @dirtyburger: Well, odyssey rules at everything so that’s expected. Except tires, I blew up a path pro at 50psi. I could see the bead!
  • 14 0
 @psyfi:
Agreed. Cheap bikes can be really difficult to get working even ok-ish.
  • 2 0
 @tonkatruck: recycling by pyrolysis.
  • 114 0
 @psyfi:
At my shop, I take department store bikes and remove all of the usable parts which can include wheels, pedals and some other useful parts. I use those parts to keep other basic children bikes rolling safely. I separate the rubber, steel and aluminum for recycling at our regional metal center. I keep a revolving library of quality children’s bikes that I give to any child that needs a big smile. I ask that they bring them back to me as they grow out of them and have been able to give some bicycles to three or more children over the years. After building a reputation for doing this, I find donated bicycles in my home driveway and at my shop on a regular basis so that I can continue the process. After a few years, I have noticed that in our small town, the community has begun to recognize the department store bikes as the junk that they are. I believe that I have changed the buying habits of our community so that we see fewer of the low quality and unsafe “bicycle shaped objects” being purchased or used.
  • 20 1
 @IronWheel: you have the correct solution right here^.

Petitioning bike manufacturers to change their product is like asking a crack attic to stop smoking crack. It’s unrealistic to think that if somebody is making money selling junk the people are actually buying it that’s called economics 101. By demanding or asking them to change their products to make them betterThat the manufacture will actually do that.As far as the manufacture is concerned if they have to charge more than they’re not going to sell anymore and their profit will be lower so they’re just gonna thumb nose at the whole idea.
  • 1 0
 @BikesNRussets: Things change, and I’m glad Odyssee got it together, but their first components when they came on the scene in the 80s were garbage. Except maybe the gyro (cables were prone to breaking, but was a big innovation at the time) and Pitbull brakes a little later. Their brakes were flexy and weak, levers snapped and locking mech was useless, their stems moved in the fork tube. Look up “Odyssee Flying Wedge Handlebars.” Ugh. Their parts had a nice finish and came in a million pretty colors, but were largely garbage. BMXers now have such glowing reviews, though. Hard to believe it’s the same company, or came from the same company.
  • 3 1
 @Stinky-Dee: this is exactly how cars got safety equipment though. People demanding cars be made safer.
  • 1 0
 @IronWheel: bravo! You’re doing it right!
  • 1 0
 @IronWheel: you rock, sir!
  • 1 1
 You must not have ever unboxed a delivery truckload of bikes that have been disrespectfully tossed around and damaged, sometimes way worse with just a single bike. In truth ,there is not enough protective packaging and you've got 340 up votes, how sad. The bikes this story is addressing are already assembled at your favorite local stores with no packaging seen by the consumer.
  • 6 1
 @Stinky-Dee: love the sound of a crack attic. Is that where classy people smoke their crack?

“Too posh for a crack den? Try out our executive crack attic!”
  • 2 0
 @two2pedal: @two2pedal: I've built 100's of bikes, thank you. The shipping of a whole bike and what it takes to protect is is totally different than the bullshit plastic hang-cards tires have (marketing over fxn) or the luxury boxes some components come in. The 340+ votes was not what I was shooting for but it sure seems to elude to there possibly being an issue, eh?
  • 5 0
 @psyfi: I don't think Deore is the bar we should be using for budget bikes. That puts biking way out of reach for too many people. As low as Alivio components are perfectly serviceable, durable parts, that can hold up to the rigors of at least medium-duty XC. Also, understanding that not everyone is a h mountain biker or has the budget of a mountain biker. Acera components work well for the vast majority of people riding roads, paths, and light trails. Part of this is making bikes accessable, and accessibility includes both durability, repairability and entrance prices.
  • 1 0
 @Compasteedee: You could be right, I've not used anything lower than Deore personally. Deore spec is quite reasonable IMO though I'm a cyclist and I understand that XTR pulls the average cost WAAAAAAAY up when you know the full range as we do. That said, I think you can get a hard tail with full Deore for about $1,200 or so.
  • 3 0
 @psyfi: For sure. I wouldn't mess in waters below Deore for my own bikes either, but I'm also willing to spend thousands of dollars on a bike; however, there are people who only have a budget of a few hundred dollars (or less) and Deore doesn't fit that bill. I've found lots of lower end components (particularly from Shimano, not so much from Sram unfortunately) to be about as easy to service as XTR, XT, Saint, Deore etc.
  • 1 0
 @Compasteedee: It's true, you're correct, it's always a bit funny and frustrating both when someone unfamiliar to bikes asks about what a reasonable price for bike is followed by ranting and raving that 2k-3k is insane. Then you share that SC's top spec'd bikes have remotely controlled derailleurs and dropper posts and cost 10k plus and together you rant and rave about the ridiculous cost!
  • 146 1
 I had a friend go off on a rant because the bike shop said her sons bike was not fixable and she thought they were being pretentious bike snobs(she used more colourful language). When i explained this concept she was shocked. It is a shane that unsuspecting customers are being sold this junk. However our society wants stuff to be cheap and immediate so they buy the cheapest crap tgey can find...
  • 41 0
 I agree as the saying goes buy a good tool once and never buy it again.
  • 103 0
 @Dabroski-5:
Buy once, Cry once
Good shit aint cheap and cheap shit aint good.
  • 31 8
 It's too bad bikes aren't subsidized as much as cars. In the average person's mind $500 is a lot to spend on a bike and their expectations don't match reality. If the car industry was truly at the mercy of the free market I think cars would be too expensive for most people. Bikes would be more popular and relatively less expensive.
  • 94 12
 There is just one flaw. Higher prices dont always get you quality products. A certain popular manufacturer sell his obnoxious orange forks for 1600 dollars a piece, even though the crowns tend to creak like a department store bike. Most expensive fork on the market and they cant even fix this one fucking issue. There are so many scams in the industry, that the terrible bottom of the barrel components arent even the worst offenders, since those are at least expected to be shit. Bike manufacturers get no backlash for half baked overpriced pos products, so they keep selling them.
  • 2 1
 @Dabroski-5: Also known as "buy once, cry once".
  • 17 0
 I had a friend in college I helped fix her bike and she couldn't fathom that the full suspension bike she got at Walmart for like $200 was not suitable for use on trails.
  • 2 0
 @loamfiend: d'oh, beat me to it by a minute
  • 4 0
 @Dabroski-5: Buy it nice, or buy it twice!

Can someone explain "Buy once, cry once"? What if you choose quality with the first purchase, why would you cry?
  • 23 0
 @mammal: cry because of price i suspect
  • 4 6
 @Dabroski-5: I bought a 1800mm Stabila spirit level once, then I bent it using it to screed a floor with, and had to buy another one. The saying needs caveats.
  • 4 0
 @mammal: Your wallet cries at the amount of coin it takes to buy nice things that last. Versus, crying later on after the cheap one breaks again and you have to buy a replacement.
  • 1 0
 @endoplasmicreticulum: research solves that problem
  • 1 0
 @kipvr: you need to read the policy page first
  • 16 1
 @kipvr: a nice straight 2x4 would have done the job. Levels are for checking level, not leveling material. I guess you probably figured that out. I assuming you were screeding concrete.
  • 7 1
 #bushingplay
  • 2 0
 @endoplasmicreticulum: oh man that hits hard
  • 17 0
 The shit is, if you're a kid you just want to ride dirt. If it takes you a full year to save up for what appears to be half decent, that's what you'd get. You don't care about weight or fashion, you just want to ride. If they're honest with you and tell you that you'd better save another one or two years... For a kid those are precious years lost. Fearless, time on your hands. You should be riding, not flipping burgers full time.
  • 6 1
 @endoplasmicreticulum: if people buy overpriced flawed products the brands will happily soll them.

Speak with your wallet Smile
  • 7 15
flag therevfryslim (Jan 12, 2022 at 5:06) (Below Threshold)
 @endoplasmicreticulum: you're so right.

my 4.5k ebike (dont hate, haven't the time to listen):
-motor died within 6 months
-rear hub bearings exploded within 6 months
-front brake seized due to overheat
-rear brake has now seized also due to overheat
-discs warped
-drivetrain is all bargain barrel sram NX
-dropper is budget model, supplied underpressurised by manufacturer, no word from bike shop to re-pressurise on delivery
-fork arrived with no air in order to fit into box, no mention of this from bike shop, or pump supplied- luckily I had one
-charging port and lock cover both rubber parts which fit loosely and fall out
-headset bearings supplied ungreased, rusted through within months

I repeat...this is a £4.5k bike!!

Motor was replaced on warranty from bosch.
everything else was described as 'wear and tear' and as such I had to pay to fix myself

It's a joke.
  • 7 1
 @therevfryslim: Did the brakes overheat because the brake rotors were warped or did the brake overheat and then different components failed. Now, I know little about e-bikes other than what I read in the media (Pinkbike and Enduro-mtb.com/en primarily) and (as silly as it sounds) 4.5GBP is almost a cheap e-bike! SRAM NX is indeed what I recall seeing in reviews. Same goes for the dropper. If it works though, it works. Others have mentioned that it is actually silly to spec superlight stuff on an otherwise inherently heavy bike. Whatever it is, it is probably stuff you could have known when you ordered the bike. Having pressurized components (seatpost and fork) deflated may not be that much of an issue and possibly a requirement by mail company. What sucks though are the bearing failures and the port cover. If the bike hasn't seen a jet-wash, I'd call these indeed failures that shouldn't happen. Braking is a tricky one though. Any hydraulic brake can overheat depending how it is being used. Could be riding style, whether it is fit for the purpose or a combination of both. Best would be to discuss this with an actual bike shop and they should be able to recommend you a brake that does work for your purposes. But indeed the nature of this sport to an extend remains that you need to find out in real life whether something works for you or not. It will always be a live and learn thing. Since I started riding, every time I broke something I replaced it with something stronger. I've seen friends who don't break stuff often go the opposite direction and every time replace parts by the lighter and more advanced/finicky version. But honestly, I think this is the best advice I can give you (and I'm sure others can do a better job): ride what you have now and if something fails, find out what you need so that it doesn't happen again. Could be the more expensive version, could actually be the cheaper/stronger one or it could be a skills training Smile .
  • 27 0
 That's a shame, I think some commenters are missing the main point here though. These manufacturers are specifically designing these bikes to make them disposable. For ex, the riveted chainring aren't just riveted, they use an odd hole spacing so you couldn't drill them out and replace them. Also the bottom brackets are made with plastic parts with an odd proprietary size so that when the bushings or bearings wear the bike is trash. Same with the wheel hubs, headset, seat etc. You used to only see this on very small kids bikes but this BS is trickling up to bigger bikes. It's not that these items even take less labor or materials, it's just plain evil.
  • 6 0
 @Dabroski-5: So true, but there's a middle road. When I started out I bought entry level tools where I wasn't sure if I would regularly need or use them often. If they wore out from use and couldn't be serviced, I replaced them with a high quality tool. Some of those cheap tools lasted a year, but others are still working fine 20yrs later.
  • 5 0
 @ichabodchain: +1'ed you for the epic username.
  • 1 0
 @pourquois-pas: there is at least as much if not more brand over valuation in the tool world. Ignoring snap on, there are very few tools from expensive brands like Wera, facom, sidchrome, pb Swiss, that are functionally worth paying the massive premium over other oem specials. I have lots from all those brands in my chests. We mostly use unior at work, whilst I wouldn’t call it cheap, I would buy it before those other brands today and save a lot of money in the process.
  • 1 1
 @Afterschoolsports: Oh I don't even consider going that high end Smile I top at at contractor grade Milwaukee and DW. Good enough for the jobs I do
  • 2 0
 @pourquois-pas: for power tools I use super cheap stuff. Ozito (sold as einhell in other parts of the world) is really cheap, really good quality, and has an amazing warranty in Australia. A $50 brushless torque wrench skin is my most used tool on the farm. I do have a Milwaukee electric screw driver and angle grinder but they were surplus at my day job. I couldn’t bring myself to pay retail prices for them.
  • 4 0
 @ichabodchain:
As a former mechanic, I can also say that those bikes are straight hell to work on. Those bikes aren’t just a liability for consumers, but their poor materials make them a hazard to work on, as there’s a decent chance of catching a bur in your hand from the “quality” componentry on them
  • 4 2
 @mechatronicjf:

The reason for the subsidies in the auto (and aero, etc) industries is because of the domestic jobs those industries create, which drive economic growth. It won’t be until more manufacturing is evaluated for being on-shored that productive conversation can begin with governments to enact new subsidies. So thinking Chicken or the Egg, if market demand shifts to on-shore products, then manufacturers will notice and act - and a certain potential jobs volume threshold can be met to incentivize meaningful subsidy conversations.

So it all starts with YOU - and your buying decisions.
  • 2 0
 @endoplasmicreticulum: you triggered some fox fanatics it looks like
  • 2 0
 @loamfiend: #shitmyoldmanusedtosay
  • 1 0
 @Beaconbike: obvs I wouldn’t have used it if I’d had a choice...
  • 2 6
flag two2pedal (Jan 13, 2022 at 16:03) (Below Threshold)
 @mechatronicjf: Why do you want big government subsidizing your bike? And by the way , what cars are subsidized, unless it's those phony green cars being forced upon us by the religious left worldwide. The free market is to get big gov out of our lives.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: I think one of the solutions to this is the used market. And for someone who doesn't know much about bikes and know if they are getting a quality item bike co-ops are a great source of information and quality used bikes that will last. For all of us, the first scratch hurts the most, used bikes eliminate this entirely as they likely have wear already, so a new scratch is just patina.
  • 2 0
 @Compasteedee: I’m sure co-ops can provide some protection from this but they only make a very small part of the used bike market. It is vastly private sellers. The used market is full of sub-$500 MSRP bikes that were never designed to be rider more than 90 hrs or be tunable or upgradable. These bike usually get sold for way more than they are worth and in unsafe condition.

Especially with bike shortages now, I am regularly seeing bikes come into our shop and the customer excitedly says “I just got this for (insert price between $100-400)” and I just want to get it ‘tuned up’.” I am regularly telling people either it cannot be made any better that it is because of all things mentioned in the article but it is technically “safe” to ride OR it will cost $100-400 to fix it but it will still only be worth $40 or scrap metal, it won’t be tunable or serviceable in the future and it will only perform marginally well at its best.

Basically In the used low end market, you have either a seller who knows that they have shit and are taking ignorant buyers for a ride OR you have ignorant sellers and ignorant buyers. Either way, the person holding the cheap bike loses. One of the worst places to get a bike… Play It Again
  • 95 0
 when I was a mechanic, we had a guy bring in a kids bike that was in rough shape, wanted to fix it up for his son. the bike needed a lot work, brakes, drivetrain, tires, truing, i think the quote (even with the cheapest budget parts) was like $250. the guy flipped out on us, said he could buy a new bike for that. he started making a scene and the shop manager got involved. shop manager was able to get from him that he actually pulled the bike from his neighbors trash. shop manager calmly explained that it was a department store bike, had the lowest end components to begin with, and that he'd honestly be better off buying something new and offered to show him some entry level bikes. dude wasn't having it, asked if we could just fix a few of the worst things. manager explained it was all or nothing, because if we didn't repair everything it would be a liability to us as we didn't deem it in safe rideable condition. by this point the guy was all but outright accusing us of trying to rip him off, it was at this point that the manager lost his cool and shouted over the guy "maybe this was why the f*ckin' bike was in the garbage in the first place" and threw him out of the shop.
  • 41 0
 "Why does my cheap broken garbage that was assembled at Chinese wages cost more to repair with half-decent parts installed at US wages, than it costs to buy a whole new piece of garbage?" Yeah, I've had that uncomfortable conversation my share of times as a mechanic. Fortunately nobody has fully flipped out on me (yet). Also this is why I refuse to be promoted to management--when the customers get stroppy with me, I just say "let me grab the manager for you..."
  • 8 0
 I can imagine my old shop manager shouting the same thing. Beautiful.
  • 15 1
 Dude people f*cking suck. I am both very happy I don’t work in a general consumer facing job, and sad for those who do.
  • 117 20
 Thats's gonna be a 'no' from me dawg. Be safe be well, Incognito Robin
  • 5 4
 But what are bike shops gonna do without broken bikes?
  • 32 1
 @camcoz69: The point is more that they shouldn't have to tell someone that their bike is a piece of rubbish that can't be fixed.
  • 3 0
 @camcoz69: Haha! Assuming this is sarcasm.
  • 5 0
 @JonnyTheWeasel: THATS THE FUN PART.
  • 1 1
 @camcoz69: sell new bikes
  • 9 7
 I've heard somwhwere that those rental scheme bikes in China are something crazy like $18 American at cost per bike. We already have better quality repairable bikes... But someone who buys a $99 bike can't afford them. This petition is a bit silly. The idea is morally sound but realistically all it would do if it gained any following, which it won't, is price people out of the market.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: In a normal world maybe, although it's debatable for anyone who's had a 300$ Hope cassette with it's proprietary freehub that lasted 500km (1 example out of an endless list). HOWEVER, with the current shortages parts breaking means potential loss of consumers for the shops if there's simply no stock to sort them out.
The bike shop in my neighborood doubled it's staff six months ago and now everyone's laid off already, bikes are piling up, they're waiting for the parts.
  • 7 0
 www.theguardian.com/cities/gallery/2018/may/01/unexpected-beauty-china-bicycle-graveyards-share-bikes-in-pictures

When supplier countries are willing to throw away hundreds of thousands of bikes before ever using them, this petition doesn’t seem to be going anywhere.
  • 1 0
 @usedbikestuff: That is arguably a completely different case. Those were hype businesses that were flawed from the get-go and who are not being heal accountable for the waste they generated.
  • 1 0
 @pourquois-pas: caused significant supply chain demand delays a few years back and nothing was done to repurpose or re-use any components. Not to mention zero ecological consideration. Why would there be any concern about bikes going to foreign countries. Granted a lot of that was state mandated, yes true, same points. Lots of steel sitting there.
  • 2 0
 @usedbikestuff: The article is about companies building and selling crap. Those rental fleet bikes are actually (usually?) built for durability and serviceability... which is ironic that they sit in yards wasting away because the companies that placed them all over the world went bankrupt and walked away from the mess.
  • 1 0
 @pourquois-pas: ah I see you arrived at my point. Factory making both is the same.
  • 89 4
 Looking at you, SX Eagle drivetrain. If you don't pay for GX now, then you will later.
  • 8 1
 +2 if I could.
  • 25 11
 And then pay for XT after that. The only reason GX is considered middle of the road is because after they made it as the low end option for years they then released two shittier options. Great plan though SRAM, definitely have to give credit where it's due. Just wait for PX to come out.
  • 18 1
 Read the original article and petition. It has nothing to do with anything even close to as nice as SX Eagle.
  • 20 0
 Sram only brought out SX to get people to stop complaining about NX.
  • 3 3
 @warmerdamj: This. Also they made a wireless version which for some reason means it must be awesome. Utter garbage.
  • 3 1
 @warmerdamj: piece of xhit
  • 3 1
 this hurt. just bought a new bike with gx after problems with my sx.
  • 3 0
 @Scubr: different letters, same problems.
  • 64 4
 Went through a whole drivetrain in less than a season. Couldn't agree more with this petition.
  • 26 4
 And that won't have been the budget stuff. I don't know how true this is, but apparently the cheap shimano gearing (sis, tourney etc, below deore basically) is designed to last around 30 hours. It seems right. It's absolutely shocking, they're not bikes, they're bike shaped objects.
  • 23 0
 While I am all for this petition, depending on how much your ride and maintain your bike a drive train a season isn't that unreasonable especially if your not checking for chain wear. I think they are more getting at that you can get replaceable parts i.e replace chainrings on your crank not have to replace the whole crank because they are riveted together...
  • 7 0
 Steel cassette (all of it) , steel chainring.
  • 52 1
 Cassettes that can easily have the largest 1/2/3 cogs easily replaced. Most of my rides are 1-2 hours grinding up, followed by a long descent with hardly any pedaling. When I have to replace a cassette 80% is still perfectly fine. It's environmentally and economically wasteful.
  • 4 5
 I have an XO/GX mix. 1 season and the cassette is roached. Lame!
  • 6 1
 @kiksy: I made the mistake of buying an alloy chainring after my bike had come with a steel RaceFace ring.

What a joke. Lasted almost no time and sounded horrific. Went back to steel and haven't had to change it out yet.

Completely agree
  • 2 2
 @inked-up-metalhead: but probably realistically designed for their intended audience: people not that interested in cycling as an experience who realistically are more concerned about price than performance or durability. It sucks but here we are.
  • 6 0
 @alexsin: correct, not a bike for experience but as a reliable mode of transportation for the working class that cannot afford cars, unable to get a DL and live in communities, like SoCal, with terrible / non existent public transportation. These people rely on bikes and thus need bikes that are reliable.
  • 1 1
 @tebb: this lol
  • 13 1
 Any bike will fry the gears in no time if you don't clean your shit and keep an eye on chain stretch; then putting a chain on at the right time!
Lots of goobers out their need to take a basic maintenance class and give the mechanics a break from your neglect!!
  • 2 0
 @catweasel: I remember seeing shimano 11 speed cassettes by parts on online stores, that also included 3 largest cogs which come as 1 piece... on the other hand that part was priced a bit less than complete cassette so it makes little sense to acutally replace it by parts!
  • 2 0
 @catweasel: maybe you should find an ebiker to swap with. I see most ebikers wearing out the smaller cogs as they cruz in highest gear everywhere.
  • 2 0
 @winko: I run a Shimano XT 10sp cassette and indeed only replace the sprockets that are worn. The smallest sprockets wear quickest and are 3 or 6 euro a piece to replace (depending on whether I get XT or XTR, which size and which shop). The smallest four are individual, then you get a cluster of two. Indeed once they go bigger they become more expensive and it becomes more attractive to just get a new cassette. That said, I mostly wear the smaller sprockets so for me it is cheaper to buy them individually. I just have a couple of them ready and check whether a new chain skips. If it does, I replace the sprocket that skips and I'm good.

From what I understand, the newer Deore Linkglide stuff is heavier and made to last. That said, Deore is already proper mountainbikestuff and is probably not spec'd on the bikes in the article. Let alone Linkglide.
  • 16 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: "designed to last around 30 hours"? It's false and completely exagerated.
I often use that kind of budget Shimano products in my workshop (as well as Sunrace components) and without being extraordinary, they do the job and last between 6 months and 2 years depending on different factors (kilometers, maintenance, manner of riding/pedaling).
  • 7 0
 @inked-up-metalhead:
Sis is terrible, but tourney is fine.
I rode my 3x8 to the ground. Lasted almost 3000km.
The problem is that most people who buy bicycles in the low price range can't even do the most basic things themselves like changing a tube, or even pump up their tires.

And big stores, or online shops that sell those bikes often do a terrible job of adjusting the components, or tourqing everything to spec.
  • 1 0
 @danstonQ: OK, I did say I didn't know how true it was. My experience of tourney is it being on first proper mtb (06 kona shred) and it lasted 6 weeks before the main spring snapped. Upgraded to a deore 9 speed and that lasted maybe 2 years till I bashed it off a rock into the wheel.
  • 1 0
 What was the drivetrain? if you buy one off amazon I would nt be suprised
  • 1 0
 I have done the same thing but that is because it was ridden into a point of no longer being serviceable. That is different from things that are not meant to be serviceable with little to no wear or tear.
  • 1 0
 @catweasel: e13 Helix. Had one for the past year (mixed with XT shifter and derailleur) and love it.
  • 27 0
 I repair old bikes for a local community outreach program. These bikes are transportation for those without the means to have cars. They buy the parts and I do the labor for free. Almost very bike gets tires, heavy tubes, and a new chain. I enjoy fixing up an old trek or the like. The department store bikes I just use for parts like the seat and such. Cheap bikes were never intended to see many miles. They are ridden once or twice and put away by owners with good intentions.
  • 8 0
 I did some wrenching a few years back for a local non-profit bike recycling program. They would get bikes donated to them, fix them and then most were given away for free with the odd better quality ones getting sold to help recoup some funds to buy replacement parts - mostly cables and inner tubes. So many of the cheap kids bike (usually in the 20-24" wheel size) had these drivetrains with a cheap version of Gripshift shifters. They were the weak point and many of those bikes had nothing else wrong with them other than the broken shifter. They had some oddball actuation rate and other shifters would work as a replacement so the bikes were basically useless because of this. We would generally strip them of any decent parts - unbent wheels, tires, chains etc. - and then scrap the rest.
  • 42 21
 This is dumb.

Oh, the $150 full suspension bike you got at Walmart wasn't durable? No shit. And you want bikes to have to pass durability certification? So basically, you want to add in an additional cost to produce a bike that will make the bike more expensive? Perfect - because bikes are so cheap now.

This petition is basically just people at bike shops saying they don't want to work on department store bikes. Which is totally understandable, and it's easily fixed without a petition. All they have to do is, when someone brings in a department store bike for repairs, say "no."
  • 4 49
flag thewanderingtramp (Jan 11, 2022 at 14:16) (Below Threshold)
 These are the people that want better pay for basically working on simple mechanical objects
  • 26 5
 @thewanderingtramp: Why don't you go and buy the thousands of dollars worth of specialty tools and spend hours upon hours sacrificing for what you love and perfecting what you do then? Sure the concepts behind how bikes work are based on simple principles, but you take all those simple things and combine them into a whole it gets much more complicated. Definitely not as simple as talking out of your ass, something you seem to be an expert in.
  • 18 4
 @thewanderingtramp: I'm pretty convinced you wouldn't make it a week in a shop. Come and see how easy it is.
  • 11 2
 No, this is not dumb. Clearly People just read the headline. Bike shops want bikes to be serviceable, it’s not all about durability. Every shop I worked in, at least several times a week, I had to explain to someone why it cost so much to fix their bike. It is a negative experience for everyone involved. No one is saying a 150 dollar bike needs to be trail worthy. They are saying whatever is sold needs to be repairable, the article talks about hub baring surfaces falling out and not being able to replace them. This is negative for the manufacturer of the bike too because if every bike shop refused to work on those bikes then it wouldn’t be long before those bikes were no longer purchased, and seeing how those cheap department store bikes companies are owned by the same conglomerate that owns “good” companies that’s bad for the whole business. Yes, bikes should meet standards, just like every other industry, and yes they will cost more. They will also last longer overall and be viable transportation for the growing population that quite honestly shouldn’t be spending the equivalent of their yearly salary on a car.
  • 8 0
 Cheap bikes were so much better when they weren’t pretend full suspension. I wish there was a ban on any suspension on bikes with a msrp $500 and below.

Oh and I recently had to spend $80 on a friends junker bike that had Hayes sole brakes. Yes they suck but it’s easy to get them to play well enough for family leisure riding. Nothing was wrong with them either, except the rubber plugs that seal the hydraulic system broke and I could not for the life of me find a replacement. In the end I got new units for both ends.
  • 3 6
 @Schralpedrubber: I must have imagined the 6 years I spent running one to get me through College University and the round the world trip. im amazed they let people with such delicate skin work in them these days to be honest
  • 2 7
flag thewanderingtramp (Jan 12, 2022 at 10:02) (Below Threshold)
 @AddisonEverett: HA HA HA Thousands of Dollars , no one asked YOU to sacrifice anything , YOU chose to do it, Sacrifice must really pay the bills in fragileville
  • 25 2
 Well said. I hope this goes somewhere.
  • 14 0
 I totally agree, but come on. This is a petition to get big box retailers to stop making money off selling cheap crap. There is zero chance of this going anywhere unless you can go straight to the Walton boys and get them to put the biking community over profit for their shareholders. That just felt stupid even typing it.

I mean I’ll sign a petition and I couldn’t agree more. I’ve tried to work on these single use bikes myself back in my bike shop days and for neighborhood kids. It’s basically impossible. Might as well try to ban selling all the cheap one use crap in the world. How about we start with single use plastic water bottles and work our way up from there.
  • 3 3
 @txcx166: indeed. To be a bit cold, this article doesn't really belong here.

The bikes they're talking about here are pieces of junk bought from a department store by brands you've never heard of with Mike Bear tires.
  • 1 0
 @txcx166: Exactly. Headline might as well be "Naive Prols Petition Big Business to Stop Being So Darn Capitalist".
  • 22 5
 I'll say the unpopular thing--in addition to signing a petition demanding something of others, how about examining paths that would bring these inexpensive, durable, serviceable bikes to market yourselves? Wouldn't that be a goldmine if it could be pulled off? The fact that it hasn't yet leads me to believe it is not as easy as some folks would assume. Cheap, durable, serviceable.. you get to pick 2.
  • 16 2
 I think cheap and durable or cheap and serviceable would both fit what they are asking for...
  • 5 1
 I can only imagine that there are warehouses stocked full in China with low-end to mid-low-end components, years old but brand new, still waiting to be installed on department-store grade bikes... might take a while to use-up junk inventory lol how many face-lifts has Shimano SIS or Altus really had? How many thousands of 28-38-48 steel cranksets are out there?
  • 6 0
 oh it would definitely be a challenge to bring to market themselves, that's why they're appealing to large, profitable companies that are 1) in the position to pull something like this off with a good chance of succeeding, and 2) responsible for the cheap, unserviceable bikes in the first place
  • 13 2
 @takeiteasyridehard: Except it wouldn't because they are requesting all three...that's the point. We all know the 'Holy Trinity' of mountain biking better as "Cheap, light, durable.. pick two". As it relates to this article though:

Cheap and durable--cranksets with riveted steel rings already exist. And they last miles and miles, typically.

Cheap and serviceable--machining parts with precision to accept threaded bolts costs more, even if nominally so. Hard to meet the 'cheap' criteria in that case, though the definition of cheap is subjective. For example, pre-covid Kona had the Dew, a disc-brake urban bike with fender/rack mounts suited for commuting, gravel, and recreation paths. 3x8 Shimano Altus/Tourney, Formula standard hub sizing, non-threaded steerer, etc all for $599. How is that not a super capable, reliable bike all for just 600 dollars??

Is the argument being made that a $250 department store junker should deliver the perks and quality of it's $600 counterpart? If that's the case, I've said awesome, be my guest, bring that bike to market--we would all love to see it and purchase that bike, absolutely. Absent that product being available at that price point, I think it is on the consumer to educate themselves/retailers to sell the value of what the $600 bike offers.

This isn't me carrying water for Shimano or Sram, but their lower-end stuff is super decent once you get out of most department stores, and at what amounts to really fair prices absent covid retail reality.
  • 4 3
 @EnsBen: See my above reply. How 'serviceable' and how 'cheap' does a bike need to be to meet the criteria put forth? I think such bikes already exist, they just cost slightly more than a department store bike.
  • 3 0
 Yeah I'll go right ahead and spec out a shop to create some inexpensive parts made out of good materials with plenty of existing start-up capital and no competition from other companies.
  • 7 1
 The point is that big companies now have the option to make good parts for less but insist upon creating new shifter-brake fixtures and multiple versions of products at different prices that require different supplies and machining. Have you ever wondered why brands don't just pick a mid-level part and only offer that at a lower pricing because they have the scale and minimal complexity to just pump those out? Unnecessary increased complexities veiled as offering more options to the consumer. Changing compatibilities does make money and then the smaller players try to work with what everyone now has.
  • 3 0
 @vr6ix: Id buy 2013 SLX for sure.
  • 9 2
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: Your first reply proves my point exactly--to do such a thing as starting a company is resource intensive, and thus, a risky undertaking. Doable, but full of risk.

As to your second point--who are you/me to tell a company (the one who has assumed all that initial risk in the first place and against statistical odds has succeeded) to tell them how they should run their business or what they should offer? 'You offer 8 shifters, you should just focus on making 3, the way *I* want, instead'. Right. Let's forget all about human psychology and marketing then I suppose. "Unnecessary increased complexities veiled as offering more options to the consumer." Yes, I agree with you here. But again, about that human psychology though...we're manipulated to want the 'next step up', the new shiny thing, what have you. It says "Shimano" in huge 1-inch letters on the chainstay of the Walmart bike, so it must be good, right? It's almost like making educated purchases would lead to improved outcomes... like I suggested above.

Assuming no market monopolies are present (those should absolutely be broken up), what is an individual to do? Write a strongly worded letter? Ok then, best of luck! In a market economy you can vote with your wallet and not purchase those goods or services. OR, you can produce a superior product and compete for market share. And that still works here, because Shimano is not Amazon or Microsoft... perfect example, Box components. They make GREAT stuff, and were doing quite well in the space, pre-covid. So yeah, actually they did "go ahead and spec out a shop to create some inexpensive parts made out of good materials...", and I'm sure that takes a lot of planning and dedication and assumed risk. Or, ya know, write a letter because then at least a person will *feel* good like they're doing something, I guess. (Insert Ralph Wiggum "I'm helping" meme here.)
  • 9 2
 @mikealive: Letters to the editor are good, like this one. If I did have the capital to make a new company headed for manufacturing, I would do it! Especially if it was someone else's money. But I don't have that ability nor do most people.

Box makes ehh stuff but they still have at least 3 tiers of product and they're no more quality than offerings from S companies. Microshift does better and somehow they make a $13 derailleur that works. Sure, that's in the right direction but we're still working with tiers of product. Make one version, make it well, and you'll have a winner with less necessary tooling. You can bet that the margins are better on top spec parts though, so the system lives on. Big manufacturers have the money and influence to make one good product viable and less expensive. Small companies don't have as much leverage and it might be impossible.

But the main thing is that it truly is about what I—the consumer, in a market that only exists because people buy these products—want. I think if you were able to poll every bicycle buying person and ask them whether they want a crap bike that doesn't work and wears out immediately or a decent bike that costs a little more and lasts, they'd pick the latter knowing the consequences.

The problem is that the companies market to what makes them money, not what we actually want. At the extreme, selling someone who wants a good bike a junk K-mart bike isn't what they want, they just don't know and the options haven't been presented. We do vote with our wallets, but some people know nothing about the candidates and companies take advantage of that.

Even so, my argument is that a big company could bring prices down and quality up for the majority of people buying bikes, and it would still be profitable. But no! There are politics, there are logistical changes (which aren't easy), and there are people in power who think the system we work in benefits most people because it worked for them. It's a bigger issue than bikes, but you could do it and more people would be happy. Frig—you could still have top tier flashy electronic stuff for an absurd price. But it's really not about making the best product. It's about making products that make money.

Whatever. Thanks for reading my rant. Send me $2 million and I'll make it happen by next year. Actually, give me publicly funded healthcare first.
  • 5 4
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: I hate to say it but making just 1 great part will never work, because we live in a competitve, open market world. Sure in 1950's China, Mao could tell the factories exactly what to make and for what price, ie Flying pigeon bikes. They were guaranteed someone would buy the bikes exactly how they made it. That is a "planned" economy, What happened in that planned economy is the great famine in China.
That is what happens when companies make what they want or told to make and not what the consumer wants. Your logic of " companies market to what makes them money, not what we actually want" isn't entirely correct and historically inaccurate. Companies will try to anticipate what consumers will want and market to that but if they miss, they go out of business or take a huge hit financially, All the talk on this forum and fireside chats at every bike event about if I designed a bike is much akin to Homer Simpson designing a car

www.wired.com/2014/07/homer-simpson-car

The other FACT of bike parts today is they are infinitely better then they were 35 years ago when I started riding mountain bikes, even the cheapest trash bike these days have better shifting and brakes than 99% of bikes from 1990! there is no denying that.

Companies are making what people want in the price points they can afford, I totally agree that Big Box stores selling bikes isn't great for our industry and to get people to look at bicycles as real vehicles and not toys. Could those bikes be better, absolutely but will people who shop for bikes at Walmart pay more than $200 for a bike, most likely not. So Walmart is filling a void.

Honestly the best thing our industry can do is stop being such snobbish dicks when a new person comes into your store. Maybe if you explain why buying a better bike at a higher price point will benefit that consumer you will be surprised with the sale. Too many bike shops, and I have been in and sold to hundreds of them! have a very elitist attitude and that telegraphs so poorly to consumers.

On a side note, nothing stops you from raising 2 Million these days, like crowdsourcing, make it happen! only you can improve your life, government surely can't. And you know the old saying is, if you want to make a million in the bike industry start with 2 million!! ha
  • 5 1
 @VicSandrin: Epic response. We don't live in a vacuum and yes, the riding experience for bikes is getting better all the time. No, you likely wouldn't want to start a bike parts company making a single part.

Just asking for a different emphasis. Quality rather than quantity and profit. Priorities. Let me know when the big corporations get rid of poverty btw.
  • 6 1
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: In my three-hours-of-sleep brain I did in fact swap Box in place of Advent X from Microshift, my bad. In my defense, they both have an X in there? Heh. Yeah, Box is fine, but I agree, Microshift is the comparison to make there, good call.

Before responding any further I want to be clear that I largely agree with your stance here. In an era where it's so often profits-before-people, it seems like it would be a homerun if a company just stepped up and made great stuff at a modest price, their profit margins be damned. I remember rumors that at one point in the past Transition would order a given number of bikes a year to cover their costs, and once they sold out they just cut their office hours in half and hit the trails more. That sounds rad! To the best of my knowledge they don't operate like that these days, but I would be curious what the motivation to change is--is it greed? Or is it that they have to grow to remain competitive in an ever evolving industry? Knowing that they want to be able to actually retire someday? I really would like to know. Could a non-profit (501x) bike company be feasible?

In terms of bikes, I still stand by my previous views--a disc-brake Kona Dew that was going for $600 seemed like a really fair, decent deal. In the shop our cost was like $469? That's a whole-ass, working, dependable bike for not a lot of profit for either the shop or Kona. Off the top of my head Trek had something similar at that time. I imagine quite a few companies did. 'Economies of scale' might be the answer.. On the other hand, the comments section wasn't exactly jumping for joy when Pon Holdings bought Dorel Sports, yeah?

The fact that people buy what is essentially junk at $250 from the department stores is on them unfortunately. You don't know what you don't know, and if you don't spend the time to increase your knowledge on a given topic, well... "a fool and his money are soon parted" as the saying goes. As for publicly funded healthcare in the US, shall we start a pool--US healthcare, or you and I ride mountain bikes on Mars, which happens first? Frown
  • 3 0
 @mikealive: I feel like the Mars crew is ahead in the running at this point! And yeah, a new Kona Dew for $600 I can definitely get behind. At the end of the day it's going to take more than $100 to weld up a frame unless you're not paying anyone and you're huge. A bike is going to cost some change! I think what the article is getting at is that we should try to cut the junk out below "Dew" level so that everything is really more repairable. That's the main thing and it could probably use some public education on the part of Walmarts and bike shops alike to let customers know. As a bonus, maybe after the big brands cut out the absolute bottom we'll see prices drop on the next tier up Razz

Oh and cut it out with the carbon balance bikes.
  • 5 0
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL:
@mikealive
@VicSandrin

You three:
Well done with having a discussion on the internet that contains differing opinions without resorting to attacking each other, dead serious. Nice to see this kind of thing when people so often get so aggressive behind their keyboards.
  • 21 1
 and then we have Pinkbike making videos of putting garbage parts on a bike and making a video about it. Hmmm.
  • 16 0
 Great idea. Amongst other goods, I'd love to see this in household appliances. As of right now, even most of the expensive brands plan to have their stuff fail in 5-10 years so their clients will be forced to buy new stuff. It disgusting, really.
  • 16 0
 I have $400 under cabinet mounted microwave that has had to be repaired twice in 1.5 years of being new. Meanwhile a 20 year old one I had in college that sits in the garage now still works perfect (ugly , but works) . New appliances are sh*t
  • 5 0
 @bman33: Yup. My mom has a washer, dryer and dishwasher she bought in the 80s that still work great. She has an Oster blender from the 70s still going strong. The dishwasher that came with my condo broke down the day after it went out of warranty and it was cheaper to buy a new one for $1000 than to source unsourceable spare parts and pay a human to install them. I'm not sure super high end stuff fares any better in this respect.
  • 18 0
 How are we going to get all the great $200 bike vs. A Line videos then?
  • 13 0
 I've been shopping for a decent MTB for son and surprised you have to spend more to get a 1x drivetrain from just about any company. Don't understand that either. Seems like the 1x parts would be less than a front derailluer, cable, housing, shifter, and 1-2 extra front chain rings plus more assembly time.
  • 2 0
 That's infuriating
  • 2 0
 It’s all old Junk. Fwiw the Vitus Nucleus is an incredible value for a 24” hardtail. The 20” is ok I guess. 26” isn’t bad either.
  • 3 0
 Most of the time it comes down to them spec'ing a crappier 2x drivetrain than the one that comes on the 1x (possibly better rear hub, special front chain ring machine to stop chain drop, rear derailleur with clutch, better crank system, etc) and then there is also usually a sum of better parts on the 1x "step-ups" model such as nicer brakes/fork that will drive up the cost.
  • 15 0
 Nobody has mentioned freewheel systems on budget bikes. That crap should be sold only on kids bikes where the axle can handle the weight.
  • 13 0
 I bet half the people on here don't even understand the correlation you're making....but yeah a bearing in the middle of a 135mm axle with 260lbs of wally on it is a sketchy proposition.
  • 15 2
 facts. Budget bikes should be steel, with solid paint colors, one gear, maybe one brake? Not 50 gears, a suspension fork and a two tone paint job with disc brakes. That'll probably never happen, but why not hope
  • 3 0
 Agree. But tackling this issue from the supply side of things is a fool's errand. Gotta educate the buyers and encourage people to avoid shitty bikes. Good luck.
  • 12 3
 Quality and Durability are things this industry are in dire need to get back to. Every single rockshox part I've owned (around 11 parts) since 2015 have prematurely and irreparably failed.
  • 9 0
 I support this whole heartedly. I am very tired of telling friends that their new bike (or new kid's bike) is beyond fixing or not able to accept upgraded parts.

(I am a hobby mechanic and often work on friends bikes)
  • 10 1
 When I worked in a bike shop I used to unashamedly tell anyone looking at these sort of bikes that they were junk and they were better off buying nothing at all. My boss wasn't too happy but I slept easy at night.
  • 8 0
 Biggest problem with the industry pumping out all these cheap bikes is that 90+% of parents think that bikes should only cost $200-$300. It’s also not actually viewed as a legit sport by most people. Sign your kid up for ice hockey, football, baseball etc??? Parents have no problem spending major bucks on equipment so their kids can play. Tell them a decent bike costs $2000 not $200??? They’ll call you crazy.
  • 7 1
 Serious question, anyone know what brands they are referring to?

I'm a bit shocked reading this if I'm honest as anything I've used (frame and components) have been rock solid and would have said the quality of parts I've used are incredible for the abuse they go to with the UK winters especially (fingers crossed it stays that way).

So just curious to hear others experiences?
  • 5 0
 Sorry, having relooked at the article I assume they are talking about more budget bikes?

The Scott gambler in the photo threw me off a bit.
  • 8 0
 let's start with Magna.
  • 14 0
 I am assuming this is mostly referring to department store type bikes. I have assembled a good amount of these types of bikes (and not proud of it). When people come in and see a kids' "mountain" bike for $250, and they think that is a lot of money, it is hard to convince them to save more money and buy something better. It is even worse when the adults come in for a bike and tell you the local bike shop is trying to rip them off by charging $800 for an entry-level bike.
  • 1 0
 @Offrhodes: I would 100% agree with this then. I remember being a kid and having a bike for Christmas and within a few months the derailleur had jumped into the wheel and ripped off. I'm sure onces my lowers pulled away from my stanchions on a cheap mtb I had for Christmas
  • 13 0
 This is true budget stuff, presumably, not budget bikes like Vitus or Polygon. Stuff that you get at a local sports store or general department store like Walmart or Target or any country's equivalent. Basically in the ~$500 USD and under category.

It's tough because they're basically asking brands to stop selling awful chinese bikes that ultimately companies are thriving off of because they fly off the shelves at 200 dollars or 400 dollars and the margins are probably decent considering... The labor they are using.

I think the important concept they are pushing isn't NECESSARILY stop making awful bikes in china. It's more so that we need a lower limit on what cost cutting measures you can take. The chintzy 3x drivetrains with riveted rings? Get rid of them. Make bikes single speed or a low range 1x that actually functions and can be repaired without a larger investment.

And the full suspension bikes around 500 USD definitely needs to stop. Those frames are NOT made for the tolerances of a linkage with a shock that isn't supporting itself with any progressive curve at all. It's just slamming into itself every time and the welds near that linkage are gonna give every time.

Basically, stop trying to make daily driver bikes "mountain bikes". MTBers know to just run a single speed hardtail for going around the city or just starting out on flat 'trails'. I'm sure there is also a lot of arguments similar to this for cheap road bikes and e-bikes and everything else.

The only bike that you can actually get good and proper around 500 is a BMX bike and a single speed/fixed gear bike. With only slight compromises, that most won't notice. Those are fine and tremendous for entry level riders.

I have a Giant Sedona that I use for running errands or if I know I'm locking up outside and can't use my MTB... They put this stupid coil fork on it that does nothing but add weight. As well as a 'suspension seat post' that simply doesn't work. I'd have much preferred a rigid seat post with less things to go wrong and a rigid fork that was lighter and more predictable. Thankfully its 2x and not 3x. I think 3x needs to go but companies want to use the worst cassettes possible so riveted 3x rings make the range work. But 2x with lower range is still plenty fine for most riders.
  • 6 0
 @Offrhodes: big bike brands are not in the clear here either.

My son has a newer 20” Trek mtb that we bought off Craigslist. It has a nice frame and replaceable components. However, it came with a “suspension” fork which I’m sure made it more expensive. It has no rebound and weighs a metric ton. I would much prefer just a regular rigid fork but it appears nobody makes a replacement fork.
  • 4 0
 @gregs22: I'm with you on kids bikes. The number of kids bikes or adult commuters with useless suspension forks, along with front derailleurs, that come through our shop is ridiculous. It might be worth the experiment to try a bmx fork that you might be able to find with v-brake mounts even if it likely isn't "suspension-corrected" (but that fork likely only has 80-ish mm travel). At any rate, yeah, not optimal, and good luck on any mods.
  • 2 0
 Mainly department store bikes, the ones that make a Carrera Kraken look like a Curtis Custom by comparison. They really are just landfill in a box.
  • 3 0
 @iammarkstewart: Moar speeds, moar betterer.
  • 6 0
 Helped a buddy assemble a new cheap bike he got last year and the stem had a torque spec on it so I set my torque wrench and tightened it up like every stem I've ever used. The faceplate of the stem literally cracked in half before reaching 5nm. He returned the bike.
  • 7 0
 go to a department store, count how many bikes aren't even assembled properly - I'm talking forks on backwards, etc. that's another issue they should address, bikes that aren't even safe out the door.
  • 6 1
 What it will take is people suing these stores for selling bikes in such a state when they crash and get hurt. I had to fix a Walmart bike for a kid in my neighborhood - bars were upside down AND the fork was backwards. Unfortunately, most people don't even know the bike was put together incorrectly in the first place and think that $500+ for a bike is INSANE (but is a fine price for an xbox and/or also have a $20k-$30k UTV in the garage)...
  • 3 0
 Above are the best two comments here. I've assembled super high end bikes in exclusive bike shops AND those shitty big box brands that cost a few hundred purchased by friends and family. It actually stressed me out to give back the cheapo bikes because even with my old school experience of setting up canti brakes I STILL couldn't get those shitty brakes to work well enough for a life-saving traffic-avoiding stop. It will take a very famous multi-million dollar court case to end this bullshit.
  • 6 0
 One more vote for telling potential buyers to look at a rigid singlespeed. I still have my Nashbar chromoly rigid SS that I got for under $300 new. Stout frame w/extra cable routing bosses, derailleur hangers and 6 bolt disc mounts and caliper mounts. Surprisingly upgradeable budget bike, which is where my nicer parts bin bits end up. Think they discontinued it but there's similar options on bikes direct, and the redline monocog for a bit more.
  • 3 0
 Nah man, I won't settle for less than 27 speeds
  • 6 0
 www.tomsoutdoors.com.au/blogs/films/ride

This is a very serious issue that is only going to get worse.
Cheap bikes often allow less affluent people to get into cycling but when basic stem bolts snap it’s just dangerous, years ago I worked in a UK bike store a major brand was selling kids bikes where instead of hub bearings it had axles that rotated on a washers what kind of evil person designs & approves that?

We all have had the people that say how much? I could buy a cheap car or Moto for that !
To which you say yes but it wouldn’t be a good one.

Mechanics can upgrade bolts etc but wierd non standard axles etc will kill a repair & the chance to encourage a person to upgrade down the track.

A certain “high end” S manufacturer makes components that have a very light action but explode derailers too quickly.
So yes it’s not just the cheap stuff.
  • 6 0
 It’s damaging to local bike shops. Some times the repairs bill will come to more than the bike cost new, customer automatically thinks the LBS is ripping them off, walks out with a bad impression of a good honest shop, leaves a negative google review. Shops that sell these bikes (bicycle shape objects) are damaging the cycle trade for everyone
  • 7 2
 TBF, many high end companies are just as guilty of perpetrating the "buy new, chuck away old" cycle, whether by changing standards, telling us anything over a year old is outdated or just not producing service parts (looking at you Fox, I love your products and look after them- my retro 32s are in great shape which is lucky as there is no support now for anything pre 2014. Imagine if a car maker told you to bin your 7yo car because they stopped making parts for it).
  • 5 1
 That's not what car makers do?
  • 5 0
 This will never happen… or better yet it already had happened but the sort of bikes they’re asking for cost far more than the average Walmart consumer is willing to spend. They’re not going to make department store bikes more durable because $$$.
  • 5 0
 I worked at a mostly commuter and mid-tier shop for a number of years and saw many manners of hacks passed off as legitimate repairs, it always left me feeling like we were doing the customers a disservice. We'd try to work with the customers who had low end bikes in rough shape that felt comfortable sharing that they were in a tough spot, but if someone isn't able to communicate that or doesn't feel comfortable they end up getting shafted. I think that the labor to fix the bike should reflect the cost of the bike being worked on.

Car companies don't make cars that will need thousands in repairs a few years later, but somehow this is an acceptable practice for bikes? Further proof that the profit goals of large bike companies don't reflect the needs of the average consumer.
  • 1 0
 Your car example isn't really the best but I agree. So sad especially when you try to work with the customer but your cheap hack fixes are still too much for their clapped out bike. It was hard for me trying to tell them the minimum I could charge is basically the same as their bikes MRSP and its FUBAR
  • 4 0
 @mechatronicjf: I know it's not the strongest analogy, but if considering bikes as transportation it made sense to me lol

It's unreasonable to expect shops to adjust service charges based on the serviceability of the bike, especially when the cheap stuff ends up taking longer
  • 7 0
 @BigLips93: Most bike shop employees are good people and do way more "free" work than most. So much respect for people working in bike shops especially commuter and mid-tier level
  • 2 0
 Car companies do that all the time. Jaguar and Mercedes bring some higher end examples. Jag was so bad that Ford had to save them (who lost interest and bundled it with Range Rover to sell to Tata). Merc was so bad in ~2007 that they couldn’t sell a single car without fixing them first (a bunch of the German higher ups got the ax for that). Ford just a couple months ago with the removable tops on the brand new Bronco. Jeep with the current generation Wrangler frames. Toyota and every truck they’ve sold in the last 20 years needing a frame (rust). Tesla can’t even get body panels to line up or paint to stick to bumper covers.

It goes on and on. Overall, bikes are probably higher quality than cars.
  • 7 0
 "Car companies don't make cars that will need thousands in repairs a few years later, but somehow this is an acceptable practice for bikes?"

BMW has entered the chat...
  • 7 3
 So, mandating a higher quality bike usually means a higher price.... Which means you're alienating people who can't afford the more expensive bike. What would be better is to have a free website that publicly shames bike brands that make sh!t bikes, and educates customers on other options or brands that are cost equivalent.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark PB web team probably one day of basic research and one day of build?
  • 2 0
 I think there’s a good amount of $150 walmart bike hate on the internet, but it’s not stopping people from buying them
  • 1 0
 Not necessarily. Stripping out bullshit “features” that have no chance of improving user experience can offer a lot of savings. Think of those full suspension “27 speed” travesties Walmart sells for $200. Make it fully rigid 1x8 with a decently built derailleur and it can last for years AND be cheaper. Single speed would be even better and you can put the savings to the wheels and brakes.

Shaming companies in front of consumers will do nothing because it’s what we’re already doing. Instead we need to identify and promote real alternatives in the price range people are willing to pay. If that means telling everyone with $150 that a beach cruiser is their only good option then so be it - because they would in fact be better off than most bikes at that price.
  • 4 0
 Most high end bikes don’t hold up to 500 hours of hard use (not abuse, but a lot of watts and rough terrain, jumps etc.)

I don’t know what the answer is-it’s likely higher cost, more weight or both.

Unfortunately bikes built to last wouldn’t sell as well. Gumby’s would be upset to have to ride a bike a couple of pounds heavier to the coffee shop once a week.

For consumers just looking for cheap, reliable transportation-good luck. Folks who buy a $250 WalMart bike both don’t know better and may not be able to buy a $600 bike. I don’t see a good answer here.
  • 3 0
 My commuter is a steel single speed road bike with a chainguard and it is dead reliable.

But it’s still a several hundred dollar bike.
  • 2 1
 Not sure about this. Yes, high end bikes don't stand up to 500 hours of heavy use, but the only things you have to replace on them are bearings and suspension parts. If bearings and suspension services came down in price and complexity through logical engineering on mid-spec models, I think many people would be a lot happier. So that's the recipe. Go simple.

Shock manufacturers: Don't make parts that blow up after 40 hours of riding and require a $150+ service.
Frame manufacturers: Don't make frames that blow up shocks after 40 hours of riding.
Bearing manufacturers: Don't make bearings that turn to dust immediately.
  • 1 0
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: Nope. High end bike frames, suspension components, drivetrains, wheel parts.....it all dies under hard use. Not abuse, just a lot of watts to the pedals and a lot of miles. For a "core user" the expectation is that all the things will break. Every. Single. Part of the bike.
  • 2 0
 @wyorider: Idk, in my experience high end parts easily pass 500 hours or hard riding. My bars, stem, frame, wheels, even dropper post are doing fine. Over more than 500 hours I have had to fix some things, but those are parts that you wouldn't expect to last forever like spokes, all the bearings, and seats etc.

My point here is simply that there are some very expensive things that instantly need service. Yes, everything will break eventually but we're not trying to avoid that yet.
  • 2 0
 @wyorider: And honestly, there are still somehow some decent low end offerings that will work longer than their expensive counterparts. If you've ever maintained a (non-suspension) rental fleet you know that most of the time it's just tire, brake, and drivetrain service, and some parts last even longer than you'd expect.

It's just that we need to get a baseline (how about standardized?) going so that people aren't tricked into buying stuff that doesn't or can't work well to begin with.
  • 8 0
 I'm not rich enough to buy cheap sh*te
  • 6 0
 Hopefully this will affect all those garbage Chinese made hub driven ebikes. Disposable piles that just end up in the landfill.
  • 4 0
 The idea that this is just about cheap bikes is a red herring. There are plenty of examples of high end manufacturers making expensive parts that are poorly designed and manufactured and then dont back it up with warranty.

Im calling out E13 here. I bought a bike decked out with their stuff and in two years have had to replace every part. The carbon cranks failed (not replaced under warranty), the chain guide broke (twice), the cassettes are made of cheese and are eye wateringly expensive and the rear hub has had the internals replaced 4 times because the pre-load wont stay tight for more than half a ride...to the point that Im getting the wheels rebuilt on new hubs because its wrecking the frame. Its a single example of a high end manufacturer providing a shoddy offering.

Ill offer another. I have a Shimano Alivio rear mech on a 27 year old bike, has never needed any maintenance. I bought an XTR mech two years ago and have had to replace it already because the part that has prematurely worn isnt replaceable. Again no warranty.

We should also ask why some manufacturers can build bikes with frame pivots, bushings and bearings that last years and some frames need them replacing every year?

And we need to get away from cheap is crap and understand that expensive can be crap too. Deore is cheap and it is hands down more robust than its more expensive cousins.

We need to get to to the point where everything is repairable.... but we cannot count on the bike industry because it relies on redundancy to make profit. We need to see regulation.
  • 5 2
 This is pointless. Even if it passes, prices will increase for the exact same product the legalities and documentation will just change. A Walmart bike can last for years if not ridden off road. Theres a common theme where lots of bikes, even from reputable brands have these warnings, bypassing all liability if you do ride trails with them. Same goes with all products. You can get a cheap version or an expensive version. It's how you use it.
  • 3 0
 I work in the bike industry. Honestly the look I see on some peoples faces when I tell them the price of that Kona Makena they want for little Johnny seriously makes me groan inwardly. More so when they ask for a discount (meanwhile they have a brand spanking new hybrid SUV parked out front). Some due diligence and research on a bike you might be interested in purchasing goes a long way. Otherwise buy little Johnny a not-designed-for-off-road-riding bike from The Warehouse or Kmart.

Anyway, good luck with that. Maybe it'll have a knock-on effect or it won't.
  • 3 0
 Geez... I was working as product manager for one of the biggest european bike producer (with factories in europe) who is a supplier for many brands. I took a look at the blog post regarding the signs of a "problematic" bike according to Mac Liman. For example, those stamped dropouts are not standard even for the cheapest chinese suppliers and I believe this must have been done by a local manufacturer in the US. Havent seen these for ages on any european and asian manufacturer fair. Those welds are terrible too. Most of the cheapest frames are done by an automatic 90´s machines or in small batches by the classic torch. This "creature" on the photo is probably done by someone, who tried to repair their frame at home with Home Depot welder.

The rest of the problems mentioned are just a matter of finances. The cheapest bike we produced was for 150 euro in retail price total. Its not for me, its not probably for you too, but its for a people in eastern countries, villages, where the monthly income is in between 200-300 euro and they need to buy something on which they can go to work. Yes, you can put Shimano Deore/Alivio instead of Altus/Acera, aluminium instead of steel components, but then the price of the bike wont be 150 euro but 200+ euro. For those people its easier to buy a new crankset and derailleur for 10 euro each every 2-5 years and the bike will be rideable again yet for "us" this bike will probably be dangerous to even sit on.
  • 3 0
 Could we petition consumers to stop buying crap bikes? I think promoting the sustainability of serviceable machines (were it more widely known and understood) would be far better than giving manufacturers an excuse to jack up the price of their serviceable low to mid level machines.
  • 3 0
 We all need to keep in mind that this is the wrong forum for this petition. Of course you're going to get a bunch of hobbyists/enthusiasts agree with higher quality bikes. We have all bought into that lifestyle (and are paying for it).

If you petition for a minimum durability standard, please also include a maximum price for such standard as well. Unfortunately, without a maximum price standard, the petition is just saying "If you can't afford a good bike, don't ride a bicycle."

Without the maximum price standard, this petition seeks to price the majority of the bicycle-buying public out of the market.

I believe there is a time and place for a cheap $250 department store bicycle. Have you seen what a 14 year old boy will do to a bike these days? Whether it's $250 or $1,000, they will trash the thing because they won't take care of it. So the $1,000 bike will need $500 in parts in a year. And the $250 bike is disposable. The parents are out $1,500 in one scenario and $500 in the other (2 x $250 bikes).
  • 16 14
 nothing should exist below Shimano Alivio in my opinion. Consumers are dumbass to though, as they expect a good quality full suspension bike for 450$ at Canadian tire (which they are going to use for commuting anyway), when they could have just bought a steel single speed brodie with sealed bearing hubs for 600$ and never had to worry about it for years to come.
  • 34 0
 I think “dumbass” and not knowledgeable are two different things. The average consumer thinks that they should be getting a lot it they’re paying $450 for something, don’t know the first thing about steel singlespeeds, and doesn’t consider themselves a “cyclist”, so the idea of dropping over $450 seems absurd.

Cycling is one of the most important aspects of my life and has been since I was in middle school and I still have literally never spent over 1.6k on a bike. Like many of us, I started working at bike shops in order to be able to support this expensive passion.
  • 3 0
 I think you're missing the bikes and consumers this is talking about
  • 15 3
 @panthermodern: But the same people have no problem dropping $1200 on an I-phone or $1000 on PS5. Give me a break, anyone thinking you can buy any quality sports equipment for that price are in fact morons.
  • 2 0
 @panthermodern: Real talk though, since you work at a bike shop and don't pay retail pricing--what's the highest *retail* price of a bike you've owned (including any upgrades)?
  • 5 0
 @BoneDog: i guess you are right that consumers do that, but problem is how cheap bikes are marketed.. they are like Wish.. stuff that appears to have tons of bells and whistles, to confuse the buyer, but in reality it is junk.. except when buying something from wish or alivaba for 2$ you kinda expect to get junk and lose your 2$, when paying 300$ it is harder to expect the same..

on the other hand.. there are too many poor countries in the world unfortunately, and probably many of those cheap bikes find their customer, who is very happy to own them..
  • 4 1
 @BoneDog: Ignoring the absurd marketing of tech products, can you explain to someone how an iPhone works in 20 minutes? How about a bike?
  • 4 0
 @GZMS: nothing worse then a big sticker that says "Shimano equipped" with a stamp steel rear derailleur.
  • 1 0
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: you are not wrong man.
  • 2 0
 I read the blog and i really can relate to those P.O.S. bikes ( the one usually given at the tombola or the rusty one with a pucture for the last 5 years at the end of the garage)
i fix what i call quality bike ( the alu and v brakes with a shimano 24 gears is a minimum ) under that ? , there is a chance my tools won t like it and if my hand slip on a cheap bolt, i will create new words heavier that those monstrosity.
I did recommend few Halfords bikes to some of my clients, they are still riding them with a minimum of maintenance and help them to upgrade when it was time to invest in a better and well deserved bike, for the records I did own 11 specialized Hardrock...cheap fork, parts, but, i made many kms Daily with the right tyres, pedals and cockpit little change,
But Agreed on those P.O.S. they are death trap too .
  • 2 0
 This is happening across the board. It relates to the phenomenon of slackflation. People are being demanded more with less resources and less compensation therefore they "slack off" to maintain the requested output. It's why the generalized quality of things and services have been getting worse in the past 4-5 years. This isnt a constant but happens when markets get real hot which resurfaces different kinds of hidden inflation (ie shrinkflation). Not sure how the bike industry is going to alleviate the problem on itself when bigger industries haven't solved it themselves
  • 2 0
 This is an increasingly big problem with more advanced componentry that is made for high performance. I recently made a apreadsheet with all the costs of bike maintenance from my local shop if I were to follow the manufacturer recommendations, and replaced worn components at reasonable intervals. For a rider who rides aggressively ~2000km a year on a dual suspension bike, it would cost ~1500 CAD in maintenance. In a lot of cases, this is less than the depreciation of a new bike..... so you could sell the bike (in need of maintenance) for $1500 less you bought it for... buy a new bike and be no worse off. I have 12 bikes in my household to maintain....which is why I learned how to do bascially everything on a mountain bike except damper maintenance.... otherwise, the cost would be astronomical.

Entry level equipment needs longer maintenance intervals.... A ferrari might need new shocks every 10k km, but I damn well hope by commuter wouldnt.
  • 2 0
 Dear god if I followed suspension service intervals and paid for servicing it, the local service centre would be gold plated.
  • 2 0
 @Afterschoolsports: That's one of the biggest costs. ~$350 for the annual full service and ~$80x6 fot eh 3 lower leg and air can services it would technically need.
  • 2 0
 @maestroman21: thankfully the online resources from both big suspension makers are pretty comprehensive. I do both ends of each bike every six months. I find rockshox and manitou to be really good and not require much attention besides those full overhauls. Fox, x2 occasionally needs more work but overall the internals of all are pretty good. Bushings get replaced annually, whereas a few years ago I was flying through bushings multiple times a year.
  • 1 0
 I also must add that I live on a farm with a pretty extensive network of trails so I’m riding over a hour everyday.
  • 2 0
 I think unfortunately the uncontrollable variable here is your customers/riders not being nice to their bike parts. Yes, sometimes things fall apart and that's just planned obsolescence, but a lot of times they break because your rider is shifting wrong, not lubing his or her chain properly or enough, or deferring maintenance too much.
  • 4 1
 Regardless of the reason for breaking, parts should still be repairable/replaceable. Sure, it's your fault if you never lube your chain and shift poorly and wear your chainring out. But it's the bike company's fault if that chainring is riveted to the crankset and the bottom bracket is not a standard size (and cross-threaded), rendering the entire bicycle unrepairable. That's the shit that needs to stop.
  • 1 2
 @abayers: cross-threading would be the assembler or mechanic's fault. And chainrings are only riveted on really low low end cranks.
  • 2 0
 @seraph: Really low end cranks on really cheap wal-mart bikes are the cranks we're talking about. And yep, you're right, cross-threading is the assembler's fault...in this case how it comes out of the box from the manufacturer. These are the problems the petition is targeting, not sure what you're reading. Think Roadmaster, Magna, Next.
  • 2 0
 I own way too many bikes, but here’s a few things I can say about the reliability of each:

20 year old trek road bike commuter, dura ace full spec, in its lifetime only replaced the chain once and pads.

1 year old carbon mid/high end enduro bike: DT Swiss always out of true, already one chain (came with SX chain on GX drivetrain), dropper lever had to get replaced on day one, fork needs servicing even though I’ve ridden it less than 100km (Lyrik Select+), wheels come out of true every second ride (Dt Swiss)

Brand New Aggressive Hardtail Mid Spec: wheel out of true, only 4 rides and trued after first ride, rear rotor already died

Dirt Jumper: Marz DJ3 died after one ride, no warranty replacement, aside from that bombproof

Mid spec down country, owned since 2019: Few chains, few chainrings, Fork serviced a few times, truing wheels very rarely, a lot of rotors and pads

Commuter to go through sketchy areas: everything had to be replaced at some point aside from the frame
  • 2 0
 Back when I raced on the road a lot, my Dura-Ace cranks developed stress cracks where they're bonded from putting down the watts. Everything wears out if it's ridden hard. Not abusively, just a lot of watts.
  • 2 0
 I have been saying this for a few years now. Every time I go to a certain bike park I meet local kids who's bikes are in dangerous disrepair and there is nothing I can do for them. It breaks my heart, those families can't afford to buy another bike every month and they don't know enough about bikes to make sure they are buying something that will last.
I agree 100% that the practice of selling these cobbled together piles of trash to unsuspecting customers is predatory and needs to stop.

Also, on the same page but slightly less of an outrage- Size XL "Upper Entry Level" hardtails coming with wet noodle forks that would hardly be suitable for a 120lb youth rider. If the rider needs an XL, I promise they also need a stronger fork.
  • 2 0
 I seem to remember some places selling cheap crappy bikes with "bike shaped object" in the small print as a loophole for meeting bicycle standards as it's not a bicycle so doesnt have to meet them, companies will always do this to try and lower prices, removing these from the market is the only way but suddenly instead of getting a bike for under £100 you're probably taking 2-300 as a minimum entry. Also cheap bikes trying to have full suspension and disc brakes to look good needs to stop, customers will be much better served by a simpler more reliable bike at that price but try telling the public to buy the one with less "features"
  • 2 0
 I love this post. I believe that all bikes should be built to last. I use Helicoils and regularly TIG weld components for motorbikes and other pieces of equipment. However most bike parts are so lean on material to save weight there's often not enough metal to produce a safe repair. Also, GET RID OF THE USELESS PLASTIC PACKAGING, BIKE COMPANIES!!!
  • 2 0
 Its worse that outlined above tbh.
Bike Shaped Objects are one of the reasons moew people dont cycle. They spend 100 - 200 hrs on a dogsh*t supermarket bike and conclude that cycling is no fun at all, its hard work and dangerous.

BSOs repel people from cycling!

Take these people and put them on a resonable, not flash just well designed and well built bike and its like some miraculous realisation

OH wow, your/this bike is SO nice to ride, its SO easy.

No, friend, Your supermarket BSO is a bag of shit and should be legislated against.

Geometry costs nothing to get right, FFS!
  • 2 0
 Just take a step backwards a bit for the affordable bikes. Friction shifting worked awesome and could stay in adjustment much better, even with a bent hanger. Rebuildable loose or retainer bearing bottom brackets will just go and go. Spindles can be sold seperatley if worn or broken. Cantilever brakes on the low end hold up better than linear pulls and the noodle isn't there to gum things up. Freewheels of the 6 , speed variety can be flushed with oild and last a long time. Rigid forks on everything. Quill stems on threaded headsets are great, the stem can be raised and the headset greased and adjusted easilly. Thin and simple round tubes might look boring but can be somewhat light. Steel or aluminium brake levers please, those plastic ones fail all the time and flex too much to stop well.
  • 2 0
 I think part of it has to be a shift in how we purchase, the default needs to be buying used when the budget is low rather than having to get something new, that is really the root of the "built to fail" bike industry. We need to totally remove the stigma of buying used. Why the hell does that make something less good?? I fix up old and worn out, quality bikes in the winter and bring them up to relatively modern standards (tune ups, 1x conversions, wider bars and hydraulic brakes etc.) to give people a chance to own a decent bike at an affordable prices. I think if your budget is only $100-$500, buying used should be the first stop, not a last resort. I love seeing old bike go to new loving homes to get a second (or third or fourth) life. It is as much a cultural/societal issue as anything. I'm in full support of this petition, this needs to change.
  • 4 0
 Just contract Honda or Toyota to design and manufacture all the low end bikes and they’ll last for decades
  • 1 0
 You're joking but they might be the best example for a solution? Maybe?
  • 2 1
 Is this a serious article? Without cheap entry level products there is way less ability to appreciate the quality products you move up to. Sure there are department store forks that can’t be serviced but if you are a savy mechanic (read mechanic not parts installer) you can keep these bikes working to a satisfactory level. When they are truly broken and get your first LBS bike you take them to your local scrap metal recycler.

My only real concern is the fork options available for 800-1200 LBS level hardtails. Suntour has to be able to put a decent bushing in for $5 more per fork that won’t feel like the headset is missing bearings.
  • 3 0
 Riveted chain rings are literally the worst offender, followed by any of the badly engineered URT full susses. Signed and shared.
  • 4 0
 Might be something to keep in mind when folks are praising Wal-Mart over how amazing Bentonville is, lol.
  • 1 0
 @Wolftoothcomponents We the people need you to make a durable cassette. Love all the components you make! We will support you in telling the big S's to step aside while you make that happen.

Sincerely,

Middle Class MTBers who have been exploited by Corporate profit models, Covid supply chain conundrums, and excessive money printing.
  • 1 0
 I’ve seen really encouraging discussion around microshift drivetrain parts. Sunrace has always been an unheralded achiever in the cassette and chainring world too.

I use wax on my chains, spend 8 (minimum) hours a week riding off road and put a lot of torque through my drivetrains. I haven’t had to replace cassettes due to wear in a very long time. Touchwood.
  • 3 0
 @Afterschoolsports:microshift advent X is the answer. Fantastic stuff for the price. We need wiser consumers who don't just fall for the latest marketing hype.
  • 1 0
 @hardtailparty: I would love this sort of stuff to be specified on bikes. I hate getting a bike and having to replace stuff immediately (sx and nx gets pulled before I ever ride a bike). Let me have a higher specced brakes or fork or shock, and more affordable but high quality stuff like microshift drivetrain parts. I would be quite alright with that.
  • 1 0
 Nice idea, but... there are people who will only ride it few times so maybe it is better to have cheap shitty option so they can try biking at all.

It would be also nice to realize that we are somehow used to (not really I know) bikes pricing. Everyday regular normal guy whould think your 10 000 USD rig is a F1 or Nasa grade, while you know you could spend twice more on a bike.
  • 1 0
 There needs too be a bike mechanic trade established. If there was a basic understanding of machining taught, there would be far less waste of parts that would otherwise be repairable. Every bike shop would benefit with having a little bench top lathe and mill.
  • 1 0
 It's the world of hastily-made everything, exponential growth curves, maximum ROI and minimum viable product. That's the foundation of our economy. Why build something that lasts when people are more than willing to pay for the "latest and greatest"...consequences be damned.
  • 1 0
 Du coup on abolit le derailleur et on met des boîtes de vitesses car c'est LE produit qui est le plus exposé à la pratique du vtt et tant pis si sram et shimano ne ce gave plus au pris des vélos c'est juste fou d'avoir les mêmes problèmes de transmission qu'il y a 20 ans
  • 1 0
 Always said there should be a durable class of frame and stuff, with modularity for adjustment, repairs or just more choice options etc, I dont want carbon, I dont want lightweight, I want the f u c k e r to last and be repairarable with a backup of parts, its the reason I still ride my pre 2013 hardtails and have never bought a complete bike new since 1992, threaded BB, Hope components where possible, they still make available parts for my 2004 hope mini brakes, moto's, tech V2's,mini mono's amongst others
  • 1 0
 I think this is more against box office, and Amazon bikes. Heck I bought a bike for my kid with plastic wheels, but I bought with the knowledge he would very quickly outgrow it. As a person that has bike shop ownership plans in his future. I plan to have a program where I take in the customers old crap bike, and try to sell them a good bike for as little profit as possible. I figure I’ll make more money working on their bike, and hopefully building a life long customer anyway.
  • 1 0
 You know how you can go out and buy a car that doesn't have headlights, and or tail lights?
No, because you can't.
---------------------------------
Industry standard moving forward should be that all bikes, okay racing bikes elite bikes exempt, bikes for kids, road, mountain all new bicycles sold need to have built in lights, front white and rear red. Bikes are for transportation and should not be sold without lights.
-------------------------------
*can be built into the bike frame, not adapted to a bike frame making them more theft resistant (and perhaps less desirable as at least some would be shaped for individual brands)
*lower cost for industry to buy them have them made en masse.
*can be made for dynamo power more easily if made by manufacturer not as an after market.
*improve safety, reduce crashes
Many people bike around without lights on, such as in cold months when it gets dark earlier people are surprised by early sunset and 'forget' lights. or had them stolen. or the mount broke. or the battery is dead.
*for current bikes, someone buying new could bring in their lights to show proof during the sale, as a way to transition into manufacturers taking this on.

---yes of course battery pack is rechargeable via mini USB
  • 1 0
 Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! I'm going to start a petition to, addressed to all the manufcaturers around the world of cars, computers, phones, homewares, etc. and demand the same thing as this petition. And then I'm going to go outside and piss into the wind while commanding to tides to stop!
  • 1 0
 The first step is to reduce unnecessary "modern" features, reduce the number of gears and range, go back to rim brakes, and increase spoke count. None of these things are great selling points, and many customers don't care about serviceability. Many customers don't have the money to pay for regular maintenance anyways. That $600-700 bike stretches their budget already. The price of the complete bike price won't change much until you get down to a single speed with coaster brake.
  • 1 0
 Few questions, please:
1. Is there any way to vote against the petition? Simply saying - to downvote it.
2. Is there any petition to make all bikeshops fire all those incompetent mechanics who can only swap components and who actualy are useless when it comes to actualy FIX something?

Thank you.
  • 4 2
 Signing requires quite a lof of personal info. Why is there no privacy policy? I love the cause but thats very unprofessional.
  • 4 2
 Cause then they can't verify the signature and the petition becomes pointless. Give me your "private" petition and someone will create thousands of fake accounts to sign a thousand times. Good luck getting anyone to take your anonymous petition seriously
  • 3 1
 @mechatronicjf: You're saying this as if people can't just fake home addresses and phone numbers as well.

A petition is only as good as the attention it gets and waves it makes. Not necessarily the 'legitimacy' it requires... Such as asking for where I literally live. I don't wish to give ANYONE that information... Let alone some random group trying to make bicycles better. What does that have to do with my house m8
  • 1 0
 @mechatronicjf

Reading comprehension: F

I understand why they need the info, but nowhere on the website do they state how it will be used. It doesnt even say that they wont use it for any purposes other than this petition. They could be doing anything with it.
  • 1 0
 @endoplasmicreticulum: My reading comprehension was indeed poor. You're correct and it is suspicious.
  • 3 1
 I think a better option than signing this petition would be to find a deep dark void to yell into. . . it will be 100% as effective.
  • 2 0
 How about an EPA style rating? But instead of mpg (as it is for cars) it could be hours of shop labor per 10 hours of riding.
  • 1 0
 I always use the argument that, "my seat post cost twice as much as that Crappy Tire Store bike." 9 out of ten times those Ding Dongs will still go buy the CTS bike. Numbers don't lie, pretty much a hopeless situation/cause.
  • 1 0
 This is such an important issue. Kudos to the folks pushing on it. I'd love to see reaction from the Walmarts of the world who receive plenty of gentle coverage due to rounding error nice stuff like Bentonville and NICA.
  • 1 0
 In a free market people are able to buy what they want and if what they want is a low-quality bike (car, toy, tool, furniture, appliance, etc.), then they can do so at their own risk. Way of the world.
  • 2 0
 Only if we can get all the component manufacturers to be held to the same standards.
  • 1 2
 Fully agree with this Try to get a rebuild kit for a 10 year old Fox TALAS Only some cassette clusters can be partially replaced, most are entirely junk after a couple seasons Damage intolerant parts like molded-in bashguard tabs can crack and render a frame useless
  • 2 1
 May I suggest a community outreach for those mechanics to moonlight assembling bikes at Target or Walmart. Asking for backwards forks everywhere…
  • 2 2
 People want cheap stuff + inflation (a form of theft) = Decrease on quality

Petition all you want, but you cannot simply bi4ch your way for free stuff (more quality for less) unless you're living on recruit difficulty.
  • 4 1
 ......but would be willing to settle for shop sponsored 4:20 breaks.
  • 1 0
 I think devinci did really well with their Marshall. Budget bike, more durable double seal bearing, enduro linkage. Durable, easy to maintain and doesn’t break the bank.
  • 1 0
 Single speed, non pneumatic tires, foot brake, one piece crank, one piece bar/stem, rubber seat, one size

^ bomber bike!

But it would suck to ride Wink
  • 1 0
 The real vote comes from you feet and money. Who you choose to support and where you spend your money. Where the money goes the companies will go too.
  • 3 4
 If a mechanic can't fix a bike - it's a shitty mechanic. What's cannot be fixed - can be replaced with the better parts. You can change everything on almost any modern frame and get XTR on a wallmart bike in the end. It's all up to the customer and a mechanic after all. But you woudn't expect a Ford Fiesta to perform like Ford Mustang, right? Everything has its price and its perfomance for that price. Do as the petition says - starting bike price will be 350-400$ instead if 150-200, twice less people will start biking, and maybe eventually come to the normal bikes and riding culture - they won't start at all.
  • 1 0
 C'mon, look where you're trying to explain.. Don't even try, useless time spend.
  • 1 0
 In all seriousness, Vorsprung's Tuesday Tune Ep 34 is exactly what the bike industry needs for a durability standard, at least regarding rear suspension design.
  • 1 0
 "- Set a minimum durability standard for bicycles to last at least 500 riding hours before breaking down"

What about forks which are supposed to be serviced every 50 hours?
  • 1 0
 So basically a bunch of 'supermarkets' and big 'sports' product retailers can focus on selling something else instead of 'bikes'.
  • 2 0
 Tell me you're tired of eThirteen stuff breaking without telling me you're tired of eThirteen stuff breaking
  • 1 0
 Instead of 500 riding hours I opt for a 5 year warranty. That will be an incentive to build better bikes. I see high end bikes with a 2 year warrantly, which imo is a joke.
  • 1 0
 It's across the whole industry not just the lower end Chinese stuff. The shimano e7000 ebike motor is basically non serviceable WTF
  • 9 8
 500 hours, get a grip you dirt ball hippies. Keep your bike clean and dont mistreat it and it will last forever
  • 2 0
 What bike do you ride?
  • 1 0
 But if the design is tweaked it can be wear and damage tolerant and last 4x longer (replace subsystems instead of the whole thing, let parts of the bike take damage instead of the whole thing. A replaceable derailleur hanger was a great example of this principle)
  • 1 1
 Have you ever experienced shimano sis gearing? It's designed to last less than 100 hours. I've done that in a month or two before now. And riveted chain rings. Or does cleaning it miraculously stop chain wear?
  • 2 1
 Nope. I’ve broken a few frames over the years. Not abuse, just putting watts through the cranks.

Fastest local guy where I live is 130 lbs soaking wet and breaks frames, blows out rear shocks etc. because he rides 15-20k miles a year and puts out over 5w/kg sustained.

If you think a clean, well maintained bike will last forever, ride more and get those watts up!!
  • 3 1
 This is literally every product under the sun.
  • 3 5
 This has nothing to do with the pinkbike audience and the bikes that are relevant to us, this is about bottom of the barrel cheap sh1t that you get at Walmart or whatever for $179.99 Putting it on here is just puff, fluff, waste of space.

Please PB, enough with the cross posting of Outside+ content that was written for, and already posted on, Bicycle Retailer, Cycling tips, or LinkedIn ffs, in place of actual mtb content that I come to PB for. I can go read BRAIN or cycling tips on my own, thank you very much.
  • 2 3
 I was about to write the same comment. This is some Outside bullshit click bait promotion that has less relevance to Pinkbike users than E-bikes. Clearly most commenters don't even realize what the discussion is about since the author did a nice job of not mentioning the part that this petition is really only related to bikes that cost less than most commenters' cranksets. Sadly, this will continue to happen in Outside land. Though it is a good petition with good intention. Too bad the author didn't just say that.
  • 1 0
 You not going to get the big box nameplate brands to buy in. Waste of electricity storing this dribble of idea.
  • 1 2
 500 hours?! motocross bikes need rebuilds in 100. so she wants 50lb buffalo bikes like they ship to africa? politicians are bad at understanding the law of unintended consequences. no free lunch. this is dumb.
  • 3 3
 This is a joke, right? Just do your job, get paid & shut up. If this comment offends you, please write your congressman-because IDGAS (that's kind of DILLIGAF).
  • 1 0
 You can't fix this until you can convince parents to spend more money on Jr's bike that they will outgrow in 2-3 years.
  • 1 3
 I'll tell you in 1 word what the problem is with affordable, serviceable and durable parts - Greed. The mark-up on the bike industry is absolutely disgusting, the average consumer doesn't have a clue because they never see the trade prices or cost to manufacture of bike components, its utterly disgusting how huge the profit margins are. Shimano for example, most of their trade prices are around HALF the price of its retail cost to consumers... trade prices that are already significantly marked up to turn profits... absolute joke.
  • 2 0
 CONSUMERISM 101....sell junk throw away ...repeat Frown
  • 2 0
 Planned obsolescence...one of the pillars of capitalism.
  • 1 0
 You can’t have it all. Durability will add increased cost or more weight. There’s always a compromise with design.
  • 1 0
 shimano linkglide is the perfect example for this, its durable but heavy which is what 90% of riders would need anyway
  • 1 0
 Someone may want to show this article to Henry Quinney over at Budget vs Baller.
  • 1 0
 When I read the title I thought about the Shimano XTR cassette. But it's more about not really cheap bikes.
  • 1 0
 dont tell cycle king!! (UK joke)
  • 3 1
 We're in full agreement.
  • 2 1
 Define durability Iso testing ?
  • 2 2
 good luck getting China making cheap Walmart bikes to have any sort of quality
  • 1 0
 Fun Fact: Thats my old Workplace!
  • 1 0
 Understandable. Got tired of truing wheels made out of pool noodles and adjusting derailleurs that won't even mount securely to a frame, did ya?
  • 1 0
 Steel chain rings for me too.
  • 1 0
 Hate how the photo shows a Scott bc they r quality built
  • 1 0
 Sram NX/SX…. I’m looking at you
  • 1 1
 Trek and their shit non-upgradeable "boost 141" QR axle fall into this throw away mentality. Disgusting.
  • 2 0
 R. I. P. SCOTT Bicycles
  • 1 0
 Containers of them owned by ms13 and LA cops holding scott ransom..crazy
  • 1 0
 What is a department store?
  • 1 0
 Don't get me started on the industry....This is awesome. Signed.
  • 1 0
 Fox engineers must be sweating right now
  • 1 1
 Whilst we're at it, can we do away with Square Tapered/Sealed Bottom Brackets? Things are actual TRASH. THEY STINK.
  • 1 0
 the is where I wanna see more drivetrains built like shimano linkglides
  • 1 0
 As long as stuff is made in China...good luck.
  • 2 1
 Signed
  • 1 0
 Hey I like this idea
  • 1 0
 Great idea.
  • 6 7
 Signed.
  • 2 4
 These guys hate poor people!!
  • 7 0
 Which is better for poor people?

1- A bike that costs £150 and lasts 3 months and then has to be thrown away and replaced completely
2- A bike that costs £300 and lasts 5 years with £50-100 spent each year to keep it running nicely

Option one, total cost over 5 years - £3000
Option two, total cost over 5 years - £550-800

The cheaper initial outlay option is appealing to those who don't know bikes because the £150 bike is sold as a bike the same as the £300 option.
  • 1 0
 @Patrick9-32: thats the thing about marketing, the lower price will always seem appealing to the masses even tho they break 10x more often, ever wonder why people keep buying chinese products that break after a few weeks?
  • 2 0
 @Patrick9-32:
It’s apparent you know not how poor people live, the choices they face nor the decisions they have to make on a daily basis. When you only have $100 left to find transportation until next paycheck, The luxury of weighing your options is what they look forward to once getting past the poverty line. That extra money goes to feeding the family or paying bills, not buying a better bike, that just not on the radar. and some people want to eliminate that option for them? But you wouldn’t know that because you’re on a MTB forum debating whether affordable product should be thing. I’ve been poor and grew up on cheap bikes because that’s what I was able to afford as a kid who had to work just to be able to buy myself clothes for school and transportation to get to school.
  • 1 0
 @shltler: 1- I have also ridden my share of cheap bikes
2- You are also on a forum debating whether affordable product should be a thing.

Nobody is arguing against affordable products. What we are arguing against is predatory practises of producing shit that is not fit for purpose and selling it to people who think they have no other choice.

Those of us who know bikes know that if you have $100 to spend on a bike a second hand machine will be 50 times better than a brand new bike at that price point if the $100 second hand bike was an ok machine when it was new. The people these makers of bike shaped objects target for their scam don't know that.

Buying the cheapest bike brand new because it is all you can afford is currently significantly worse financially long term than buying second hand. If making and selling shit bikes that can't even last 3 months of commuting wasn't a thing then the option of buying a used bike would not only still be there but it would be far better as all the second hand bikes available would be repairable, decent machines.
  • 1 0
 @Patrick9-32: even if its significantly worse long term some people really do not have a choice
  • 2 0
 @Patrick9-32:
I wouldn't argue that everybody in this forum is at a point of higher privilege than those who are not on this site, so those voices are never heard. I would love to see you try and make your point in South central L.A to the people who are actually riding the shitty bikes that take them from A to B, whether they are collecting cans or working at McDonald's. Those peoples minds do not go the some direction as those of us who live and breath bikes as leisure. they will never see bikes the way we do. To them it is not about buying power or longevity of they're bikes. they just want to survive, and a bike, shitty or not, makes things much easier for them to do that.  
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