New Zealand National DH Series - Round 3 Report and Results

Jan 20, 2018
by Cameron Mackenzie  


Welcome to Rotorua, New Zealand. The home of some of the best mountain biking in the world, the country's fastest racers, and arguably one of the best downhill tracks on the North Island. In the last few days leading up to Round 3, the country has been ravished by yet another big weather system so it has been all hands on deck getting the track up to scratch in the last few days.

As per usual, Dave Hamilton and his team of volunteers from Descend Rotorua rallied hard to pull off the final North Island stop of the series, and leave riders with a taste of what they can expect come the launch of the new Crankworx Rotorua event, the Rotorua Open. It has been a long three years since a national series event last graced the trails of the Whakarewarewa Forest, but riders dove back into it like they had never gone away.

It doesn't take a betting man to put money on the hometown kid, Keegan Wright, to pull off a win here. But with Brook MacDonald looking to give his new factory ride a pre-season break-in, he wasn't about to let Keegan have it easy.


NZ DH series Rotorua
The man to beat today, Keegan Wright.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Without further ado, riders hustled to get loaded up and see what goodies awaited them on track.

NZ DH series Rotorua

With the full eight rounds of EWS ahead of them John Richardson and Daniel Self pedalled up while the others shuttled to get those k s in.
With the full eight rounds of the Enduro World Series ahead of them, John Richardson and Daniel Self pedalled up while the others shuttled to get those k's in.

NZ DH series Rotorua

Sam Robbie looked to be comfortable on track this morning sliding around in the morning dew but luck wasn t on his side today.
Sam Robbie looked to be comfortable on track this morning, sliding around in the morning dew, but luck wasn't on his side today.

NZ DH series Rotorua
With intermittent heat showers passing through, with it came little pockets of mist and lite rain. Annoying for the riders, great for the photographers.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Daniel Gannaway was charging in that sick morning light.

Cati Pearson
It has been no secret that women's numbers have been lacking thus far this season, but thankfully Rotorua is home to a lot of fast women who couldn't resist throwing a leg over a big bike this weekend.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Out of semi-retirement came Jack Fisher, for a special outing to race bikes on a special track.

NZ DH series Rotorua

NZ DH series Rotorua

NZ DH series Rotorua

With Sam out of the mixer Cole had to hold down things for Team Wide Open.
With Sam out of action, Cole had to hold down things for Team Wide Open.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Brook and that new Mondraker looked to be a dangerous combo

NZ DH series Rotorua
The track presented riders with plenty of opportunities to pull up and get well out of shape today.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Including this precarious little huck over two sets of very greasy roots.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Brook, of course, made it look like nothing.


NZ DH series Rotorua

NZ DH series Rotorua
Doing it for the dads, Nick Skeates blitzed masters 2 (40+) again, putting 12 seconds into second place.


Guy Johnston crashed out last weekend so was hungry for redemption today.
Guy Johnston crashed out last weekend, so was hungry for redemption today.

With this being Finn Parson s home track it came as a surprise when Blake Ross stormed to 1st place today in U17
With this being Finn Parson's home track, it came as a surprise when Blake Ross stormed to 1st place today in U17

bigquotesI was having trouble staying on my bike during practice but managed to pull a solid run together for my race run. It was great to finally get on top of the podium at a national series event.Blake Ross


NZ DH series Rotorua
If his seeding time was anything go by, then Charlie Makea should have placed in the top two today. Unfortunately, he had a crash in his race run and will need to race hard come round four in Christchurch if he wants to fight for the overall.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Patrick Hale ran off track not far below this point but rode it out and will have to try again at the final round for the elusive podium step.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Josh Oxenham slowed things down to a controllable level today and put five seconds into second place in U19.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Shania Rawson still isn't back to full health, but couldn't resist racing on her home track.

bigquotesI enjoyed the track conditions today and it kept getting better towards the end of the day. Was touch and go if I could race today but managed to push through the pain and get a few runs in.Shania Rawson


It only took three rounds but finally Kate had some competition today. She did however dominate regardless going 3 from 3 with only one round left.
It only took three rounds, but finally Kate had some competition today. She did, however, dominate regardless, going 3 for 3 with only one round left.

Daniel Self was charging from start to finish today. He seeded first in Open Mens but crashed out in his race run
Daniel Self was charging from start to finish today. He seeded first in Open Men's but crashed out in his race run

NZ DH series Rotorua
Gryff Tomos mixed it in up in the Open Men's category on his trail bike today, and was riding several of the more technical sections cleaner than those on big rigs.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Jack Fisher seeded dead last after having a break halfway through his run, but pulled out a surprise 5th place in open men's, despite not having raced for well over a year.

Lloyd Jenks is one of the men responsible for maintenacne on this track so was of little surprise to see him step onto the Open Mens podium today in 4th Place
Lloyd Jenks is one of the men responsible for maintenance on this track, so was of little surprise to see him step onto the Open Men's podium today in 3rd place.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Some might call it luck, I will call it daylight robbery. Once again, Carson Rayner took top honours in the hotly contested Open Men's, making it 3 for 3.

Doing it for the Enduro boys out there. Sam Shaw jack of all trades sent it hard in the Elite field and pulled up XXX
Doing it for the enduro boys out there. Sam Shaw, jack of all trades, sent it hard in the Elite field.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Brendan Regan was ripping and tearing all day but crashed within sight of the line and DNF'd. A few x-rays to go, but looks to be another wrist related injury.

After XXX crashed on course and caused the track to get red flagged Kyle Lockwood was one of a few guys to have to do a re-run. Unfortunately for Kyle he laid down everything he had the first time around so the second chance didn t work in his favour.
After Brendan Regan crashed on-course and caused the track to get red flagged, Kyle Lockwood was one of a few guys to have to do a re-run. Unfortunately for Kyle, he laid down everything he had the first time around, so the second chance didn't work in his favour.

NZ DH series Rotorua
The Dangerous Duo of Liam and Peter Bethell struck again. Peter claimed the last step today, but Liam is bitting at his heels in 6th.

The Dark Horse regardless of the venue or conditions. Peter Bethell seeded XXX and then bettered it for 5th in Elite Men today.
The Dark Horse, regardless of the venue or conditions. Peter Bethell bettered his seeding position for 5th in Elite Men today.

NZ DH series Rotorua
Guy Gibbs was quietly going about his business once again today and round to another podium finish.

Keegan Wright seeded first today but that only would have fuelled the others fire even more for their race runs. When it came down to laying it down when it counted Keegan didn t have enough answers and had to settle for 3rd today.
Keegan Wright seeded first today, but that would only have fuelled the others fire even more for their race runs. When it came down to laying it down when it counted, Keegan didn't have enough answers and had to settle for 3rd today.

bigquotesYea, I had a good fun out there riding today. The track tacked up nicely for race runs and made for might racing. I just put down a safe run today but had a good day all in all.Keegan Wright


Cole Lucas turned that 3rd place seeding into a 2nd place result after hunting down an extra five seconds like Brook.
Cole Lucas turned that 3rd place seeding into a 2nd place result after hunting down an extra five seconds like Brook.

The Bulldog sinking turns deep in the jungle
The Bulldog sinking turns deep in the jungle

Brook looked to be back to his old ways charging everything.
Brook looked to be back to his old ways; charging everything. He even found an extra five seconds in his race run to put him well in front.

bigquotesAwesome day out on the bike and good to get a race under the belt with the new bike and team. The track was all time with the rain it had during the week and made for prime conditions and changing it up with the new sections is always good with fresh loam.Brook MacDonald


Fergus Duncan sent it to hard into the end gap and snapped his wrist on impact. He was in high spirits and high places and will be ok.
Alex Kennett left it all out there today but paid the price.
A few casualties after a big day of racing
Brendan Regan was ripping and tearing all day but crashed within sight of the line and DNF d. A few x-rays to go but looks to be another wrist related injury.
NZ DH series Rotorua

NZ DH series Rotorua

NZ DH series Rotorua
It has been a hectic three weeks of back to back racing, but now we take a short break until Oceania champs in three week's time. Until then...

Results

Elite Mens Podium
Elite Men's Podium
Elite Womens Podium
Elite Women's Podium

1st - Brook MacDonald ( 3:02.66)
2nd - Cole Lucas ( 3:05.54 )
3rd - Keegan Wright ( 3:05.70 )
4th - Guy Gibbs ( 3:10.92)
5th - Peter Bethell ( 3:11.90 )
1st - Kate Weatherly ( 3:32.31 )
2nd - Shania Rawson ( 4:07.11 )
3rd - Cati Pearson ( 4:36.62 )

Full results to follow.


Mentions: @cameronmackenzie



177 Comments

  • + 68
 What is everyone's opinion on transgender in this sport? Personally I think it's a major unfair advantage, and showed in the women's results.
I will accept all neg props since this is a controversial topic to some, but will be interesting to see opinions....
  • - 5
flag Lagr1980 (Jan 21, 2018 at 3:44) (Below Threshold)
 they should race on their previous sex category ? whats the deal ?... 4th pic from bottom triggered that thought ? is a he or a she ; ) ?
  • - 4
flag harrybrottman (Jan 21, 2018 at 4:07) (Below Threshold)
 There is a tranny in this race?
  • + 11
 Becoming a woman and then going up against women in competitive sport seems to be a case of having your cake and eating it. If the other girls don't care that's fine, but I'd have certain scruples about it if I were the newcomer to the gender, and I'd probably rule myself out.
Or was it a joke?
  • - 8
flag Monstertruckermotherfuker (Jan 21, 2018 at 5:10) (Below Threshold)
 Deliverance was always my favorite love story.
  • + 8
 I’m all for it. Apparently some people (below) think transitioning your gender is akin to ‘tucking their dick’ and putting a wig on. To that end, in my opinion the sport needs any and all to compete- just to show the ignorant c*nts that walk around here there is a whole world out there beyond MTB. Can’t believe what I read on this site sometimes.
  • + 7
 Agreed. Molly Cameron is a trans cyclocross athlete in the US... still competes (and does well) in the elite men.
  • + 81
 I have all the respect in the world for someone that feels out of place in their body and wants to be treated in society as a man/woman. They can use whatever washroom they want. Work in whatever field they want. Walk down the street free of harassment or judgement. I would address them by whatever pronoun they wanted. I would ride bikes with them and be their friend. But a biological man should not complete competitively against woman.
  • + 30
 @Adamrideshisbike: I am an old fart that still “sends” it but everyone says I act like a 12 yr old and to be honest I still feel like a big kid, I feel like I should be racing the 14 and under kids but they won’t let me, soooooo unfair. I feel like a millennial trapped in Vernon Felton’s body.
  • + 10
 this was an issue in BC 15 years ago. I forget how, or if it was ever resolved. Her fellow competitors were not stoked.
www.outsideonline.com/1822371/michelle-raises-hell
  • + 4
 I believe IOC rules are that transgender athletes must be on hormone therapy to compete.
  • + 6
 @ArchieDH WTF? Where are you coming up with this BS? If you are indeed referring to the fourth to last pic, and specifically the blonde haired person on the right, that is Carson Raynor.
  • - 11
flag StackingItSince1991 (Jan 21, 2018 at 11:21) (Below Threshold)
 Are you talking about Kate Weatherly? She's not transgender.
  • + 15
 @StackingItSince1991: Well this is awkward...
  • + 16
 @nickkk: The problem is that "your" gender isn't something that current science can change. While you can alter your appearance significantly, modern science can not change the most fundamental aspects of your cellular physiology. No matter how many surgeries and hormone treatments you get, going through puberty as a male will give you a competitive advantage over women, and women who have undergone therapy to appear more masculine will have an advantage over other women as well.

This movement will lead to a sharp decline in participation and viewership of women's sports, regardless of how moral or immoral the subject is for you.

Its also important to point out that even in the most 'tolerant' cultures like the Nordic countries, post-op transgenders have the same rates of suicide as those who live in more 'intolerant' cultures/countries, and those who never received surgery or hormone therapy treatments. These surgeries and treatments also come with significant long-term health problems, while providing little to no evidence for improved quality of life.
  • + 33
 To clarify: The transgender athlete everyone is referring to is Kate Weatherly, Elite Women's Winner.

She is undergoing extensive hormone therapy and working closely with governing officials here in NZ to make sure everything is by the book. SHE is still the same person she was in her previous gender and it is very brave of her to be making this change while still competing in a public arena.

As for the issue of competing & dominating in the elite women's field when last season she was podiuming in men's fields... I don't know and it is not my place to comment.
  • + 10
 @eivomedia: I stand corrected
  • + 85
 I started hormone therapy before I really started puberty (blockers at around 16/17 before my growth plates had fused) and I don't feel I have an unfair advantage as Vinny Armstrong (another elite kiwi woman) and Shania Rawson (who was sick on the day of the race) both are about the same speed as me (with Vinny beating me at a recent race).

I'm not trying to change peoples minds however if you do feel that (with your education in sexual development in humans?) I do have an unfair advantage then talk to the UCI, IOC and Cycling NZ and see what they think?

I'm fast because I train 6 days a week and pour my heart and soul into this sport. Honestly, if I was beating even the top woman by a lot then I wouldn't be competing, there's no point in me winning every race, as you say that's bad for the sport.
  • - 17
flag Geral01 (Jan 21, 2018 at 14:39) (Below Threshold)
 @Lagr1980: thats a dude
  • + 19
 @kateweatherly: I applaud your bravery coming onto PB and explaining it all. There are some real knuckle draggers on here!
  • + 18
 @kateweatherly: Sorry Kate, I feel for you in this situation, but I don't think it's fair on the biological girls.
Maybe a new intersex class should be created?
  • - 9
flag BenPea (Jan 21, 2018 at 15:09) (Below Threshold)
 @Larkey1: Might it not be possible to use oestrogen to modify the body like BMW do to their engines to turn a 320d into a 318d (clever jiggery-pokery). But then by the same token, could biological women only be the equivalent of a 316d? Sorry, best I could come up with. Talk about a f*cking grey area.
  • + 16
 @Larkey1: I feel you, honestly if I was beating the other girls then I wouldn't be racing, I was really worried I would be but I lost speed after starting hormones and dropped off from near podium in mens to like barely top 10, all while still training, but yeah if I was always winning then I'd stop but I only think its fair because the other girls who I ride with are just as fast as me!
  • + 14
 @kateweatherly: As long as the other girls are happy about it, go for it.
NZ mtb scene in general is fairly casual from what i have found.
  • - 17
flag Monstertruckermotherfuker (Jan 21, 2018 at 16:14) (Below Threshold)
 @kateweatherly: Cato Pearson is going through menopause, how does that figure into things?
  • - 11
flag FrozenTreads56 (Jan 21, 2018 at 16:35) (Below Threshold)
 honestly, Idgaf what you do to your body, I'm not gonna stop you, but when it starts affecting other people that's when things start to get fuzzy. I mean if someone wants to be a tranny, you do you, but don't expect everyone else to just fully comply to a possible unfair advantage when said tranny made the decision to be so himself. same thing with the bathroom issue. instead of classifying categories by "gender" or what you claim to identify as, classify them by what you have in your pants.
but anyway congrats on the wins guys still glad to see nz dh going strong
  • + 19
 @kateweatherly: All respect goes to you for your decision on changing genders however, I believe that you have much more of an advantage than the other biological women riders. Clearly men are naturally faster than the women riders and as shown the top men’s race times are a lot faster than the top women’s race times. With you being a new fast competitor for the women field this could potentially ruin future careers for some of the top women riders. You have been riding in the male section previously and placing on the podium as you said, your skill, ability and brains in riding will not go away with a sex change. You have stated that you are unable to race as fast as when you were a male however you still have a greater chance at doing better than the women as of male features that will stay with you forever. I do not think you should be riding competitively against the women and if downhill for you is your number one passion than continue riding for fun.
  • + 34
 @Monstertruckermotherfuker: shit am I going through menopause!??? I’m glad you let me know other wise I would have never guessed!
  • + 5
 @catipearson: You're just plan old cranky, it's nothing to do with menopause ????
  • + 1
 @dhaddiction1: well said sir. I'd also like to add it is normal if you go fron tip 3 to top 10 with age we change amd the sport also changes. Dont blame it on the hormones I believe it is really unfair for biological girls competing against you.
  • + 8
 @dhaddiction1: DH is a bit of a grey area as it is not just about physical ability it a considerable amount of skill involved. If Tahnee was racing I am sure she would have blown the field away..and she is not very big at all.
  • + 5
 @woody-nz: true dat! Definitely just a grumpy old hag ????
  • - 3
 @hamncheez: interesting response, thank you. Can’t we all just get along that though? Harambe didn’t die for this.
  • + 10
 @kateweatherly: Massive props for wading into the PB comments section, first off; if the UCI and NZ cycling have approved you to race then its fair play even if you're winning by 10 secs, not your problem at all and f*ck anyone who says otherwise.
Second, how does the HRT effect you with regards to how your bone structure and muscles have already developed? surely even if you started this during puberty there would still an advantage in a way (in terms of strength etc obviously not skill on a bike)? like if i were to use steroids for 6 months then go clean to compete 5 years later- id still have that base of strength developed uncleanly even though im "competing clean". Interested to hear first hand about the change as it seems its going to be a big thing in sports over the next few years.
  • + 3
 @nickkk: @nickkk: I didn't advocate any position on what consenting adults should be permitted to do with their own lives. What I did point out is that regardless of your position on this issue, it will cause a decline in biological women choosing to race bikes, and in womens sports in general. It will also cause a decline in viewership for all womens sports.

Additionally, we need to call into question restrictions of any kind with regards to performance enhancing drugs, when some athletes are allowed to take them to maintain their physical appearance and gender identity. To say these treatments don't affect performance is not scientifically honest.
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: ok. May I ask, what are you basing that idea that the inclusion of trans athletes in women’s disciplines specifically, will precipitate a decline in participation in the women’s field? I understand the reasoning, and admittedly I hadn’t considered that POV until now. Is that something that has been observed in other sports?
  • + 4
 @nickkk: this is worth a read (posted above by @shredddr): www.outsideonline.com/1822371/michelle-raises-hell
ACC is quoted as saying she would quit if she was beaten by Dumaresq, the trans rider the article is about. Anecdotal but hey, this is ACC we're talking about.
  • + 9
 @nickkk: Being objective id say the same reason natural bodybuilders don't participate in UKBFF events.... there's no point. Unless you juice you're just a chump paying an entry fee. SO why bother when you could spend your money on uplifts?
Interestingly, the article linked above has some limited info into the advantages a trans athlete may have and they're not insignificant- so answer this; if you were playing to win, for money, would you bother competing against someone with an undeniable performance advantage?
(For the record, i dont have a problem with anybody racing bikes in whatever category they choose, but when its PRO and for money/endorsements, you have to look at it from the perspective of the other competitors)
  • + 9
 @nickkk: The inclusion of trans women into womens sports is misleading phraseology. A more accurate way to present it is allowing feminized males to compete against women, with the definition of feminized varying somewhat between governing bodies, but usually it means taking female hormones and 'living as a woman' for two years. When you include proper definitions of what constitute a trans woman athlete, its clear why they have a competitive advantage.

We watch sports for competition. When there is an unfair advantage within a certain league, people tune out. Trans women have a huge competitive advantage over females, and as seen in the UFC it creates initial controversy and extra coverage, but then results in a decrease in people wanting to watch an uncompetitive sport.

If you were to race ( I dont know your background ) what would it do to your desire to race if a certain segment of your competitors is allowed to take performance enhancing drugs, but you are not? What does it do to your chances of getting a sponsor if you can't get on the podium since you aren't allowed to take performance enhancing drugs?

What sponsor would want to back a champion who got there by using an unfair advantage? Initially it might be profitable to appear 'tolerant' and 'progressive', but long term sponsors back athletes because it helps communicate to consumers that their bike is capable of high performance. If a person is winning because of an unfair advantage, how can you then claim that your equipment significantly contributed to winning races? Consumers won't buy based on the unfair results, and sponsors will just abandon womens sponsorships.
  • + 7
 @hamncheez: interesting stuff. Thanks for the replies and to others. As I mentioned, I’m all for inclusion in our sport but as the above indicates there’s clearly more to consider here, specifically in the classification and categorization in competitive sport. I however will admit to some unease at the prospect of trans athletes being categorized in any singular way that truly marks them as different, I should say, but it’s clear the notion of a ‘level playing field’ has to be broached at some point. I would worry the weight of scrutiny could be problematic on any sane competitor in that situation. Consider me a little more enlightened on this topic now than I was previously though- I’ll read other things on the topic with a different hat on I think.
  • + 10
 Holy smokes here we go again. Very tough subject. The same situation occurred in Canada in the early 2000’s. Michele Dumeresque. Contested by a handful of pro women. CCA to UCI to IOC and back and the ruling was downhill racing is not an Olympic sport so we don’t give a f*ck. MD raced, won over and over and within a year or two a few dejected pro ladies retired sadly. I’m talking about some seriously fast ladies here. They contested that prior to reassignment MD was able to train as a man and therefore had an unfair advantage. Also that MD was taking steroids as part of the reassignment therapy. Miss a few pills... Testosterone levels rise...ya dig?
Put an end to it now. It’s not fair in sport. Period.
I have to say that from a social perspective I’m compassionate to their plight heck I even have a trans gender cousin!
UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.
  • + 9
 you Won by 35 seconds!!! Barely top 10 in the pro men field ? The fastest women in the world don’t even come close to top 10 men on any given Sunday ..,anywhere on the planet.
  • + 2
 @dhaddiction1: You said everything I was going to.
Serious question: With the (ever louder) push for pay parity for elite athletes, and the grey area of transgender athletes being allowed to compete in their assigned legal gender rather than their birth sex, are we facing the prospect of re-assignment of an athlete's gender solely for competitive and financial gain? Not suggesting that's the case here, I believe @kateweatherly has been genuine in her actions and more than accommodating of our questions, curiousity and hypotheticals but moving from being off the podium in Open Men to winning Elite Women during a period highly invasive medical intervention suggests that an advantage was gained and others may try to capitalise on that. Maybe she can give a summary of the work she's done with CI NZ, and the UCI etc. to ensure the legitimacy of results in cases such as hers? (I'm not asking her to justify her own results, just provide an indication of the kinds of things governing bodies do to protect the integrity of results in general).
  • + 9
 @nickkk: there is a difference between gender and sex. Surely the sport should be divided according to biological sex, not socially constructed gender. All power to Kate for being herself, I don't care if you want to identify as no gender at all, it doesn't effect my life, but the benefit of having a male body in this sport seems obvious to me. I must admit that I'm unaware of the effects of hormone therapy etc. An interesting discussion for sure, and fair play to Kate for coming on and addressing it!
  • + 6
 I don't think trans people should compete among "binary" genders unless it is their original sex. A man who turns into a woman is gonna have a physical advantage for sure. Remember your chromosomes don't change despite what you "identify" as. Personally I have a real hard time taking someone seriously who says, "I am a biological man, but I really am a woman." Like biology is some bs conspiracy on par with chemtrails. Either way, you are massively playing with hormones which is way too grey of an area for sport. Just adding 2-300mg of additional test to my "normal" male blood levels would be a fairly mild dose but would definitely enhance my physical performance. You can't be specific enough to say that an exact amount of hormones equates to zero advantage. But what do I know, I'm just a bigot because I side with biology and chromosomes and other junk science.
  • + 4
 @bluumax: 35 seconds
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: Why everyone is only talking about trans women in sports? Are there cases of trans men competing against other men (born as men)? Are such sex change cases rarer? Do trans men compete professionally?
  • + 2
 @Slabrung: To answer your question, I need to clarify some things. First, none of this is a personal attack on @kateweatherly; I hope Kate finds success and happiness in life and promotes mountain biking to the world. Secondly, I am not advocating any policy yet, as policies made quickly and on emotion are usually garbage, as seen below:

www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/27/517491492/17-year-old-transgender-boy-wins-texas-girls-wrestling-championship

The trans boy wasn't allowed to compete against boys, as Texas law (made quickly and based on emotion) requires trans athletes to compete against athletes of their same sex. This trans boy had been on hormone treatments for years, which essentially is a performance enhancing drug, allowing the trans wrestler to clean house against non-testosterone-supplemented girls.

The sad thing is that this person was probably a really good athlete already (taking male hormones doesn't automatically make you a winner, its not magic) and perhaps would have won the match anyways. We will never know, and now the title is worthless as it will always have an asterisk next to it and all the glory and fame that should be there is gone.
  • + 3
 @hamncheez: I don't read any of this as attacks on anybody. I even think that the more we discuss this subject, the more 'commonplace' it becomes, the easier the lives of transgender people will be. I just noticed that the discussion was only about transgender women, so I got curious about men. When they compete with men, are they considered to have a disadvantage due to having grown up with smaller testosterone supply? I have no idea, just wondering.
  • + 9
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: For me, to race, I haven't just "tucked my dick" as people would like to say, I had to meet every requirement set by the UCI and IOC before I could even compete on a non-professional national circuit of races. I need to have a born females amount of testosterone for more than a year (10 n/mol) however I have met this above and beyond considering my T levels are WELL below a female level, with my levels being at 0.5 +/- 0.5 n/mol, and I've been at these levels for well over the required time limit, the descion to allow me to compete was made on the fact that I am 20 and haven't had a male puberty (hormone blockers at 17) and thus haven't got the muscular advantage everyone is telling me I have (honestly if you can help me put out more than 900 W max power tell me how because I'd love to be stronger).

When I said podium in open men I meant I got 5th once with a time still more than 10 seconds off the winning open men time, and more than 30 seconds off the winning pro elite time (in NZ we have a casual and pro categories) I was never even close to being able to compete at an international level.

I'm not trying to change the world I just want to race in a sport I love, and if I start winning every race by an unreasonable amount considering the training I put in then you have my word I'll stop competing at this level, however I'm going to keep training hard and riding as hard as I can, and I'm more inclined to believe the veridct of a governing body of scientists with degrees in medicine (those working for the IOC/UCI) because lets face it guys its not as easy as you make it sound, and chromosomes don't matter, there are born woman who have XY chromosomes so its not black and white (citation on request). I'm only competing because I am the same speed as other women in my field and therefore me racing is fair and we need to take into account the effort to results ration when racing because its unfair on me that I train 6 days a week and can barely pull a top 10 in the casual men's field.

I'm happy to answer specific questions for people but I want to do it in a way that doesn't involve people yelling that I'm unfairly fast when I'm not. I ONLY WON BY 30 SECONDS WAS BECAUSE THOSE WHO ARE MY SPEED WERE INJURED!? You really think I'm as fast as Tracey Hannah or Rachel Atherton? That's a joke.

The last international race I did, 2016 Crankworx Rotorua (before I could compete in the correct field) time would have put me in 8th in the pro woman's field, and that was with testosterone. Rather than having a knee-jerk reaction lets look at the individual and make a judgment based on their results and biology (just like cycling NZ did before they let me compete).

I'm sorry if I sound a bit pissed but I don't like being degraded based on something i have no control over.
  • + 2
 @kateweatherly: I understand you can be pissed off. All I can say is that it sucks that such matters interfere with you just shredding and enjoying the sport. Personally I don't have any opinion on the advantages / disadvantages thing cause I'm not a biologist. I just feel for a fellow biker. I see an opportunity for manipulation in more lucrative disciplines but personally I don't care because I'm not a professional athlete.
Sport generates strong emotions. Emotions can generate weird behaviours and conflicts, especially when fame and money is involved (like football, Olympics and stuff). It's part of the game unfortunately, let's just hope for good regulations to cut the discussions.
(By the way, you have beautiful hair!)
  • + 3
 @kateweatherly: Well done on the win, and sorry to see you have to deal with being "outed" in the pinkbike comments section, I hope you can take this in your stride and keep on smashing it.
  • + 1
 first and foremost dh racing is something you do alone against a clock and everyone should have the opportunity to race.

A category is just a category. we try our best to make the cotegory's as similar as possible. we dont expect a 14 year old kid to ride as fast as the pros so we see how they did relative to other 14year olds. for adults we rank them by whether riding is the profession or on how new/ dedicated they are to the sport. for this reason more categorys are more inclusive. edit: its also exclusive to make people ride alone in their own category

there is no category for trans so it makes sense that they would choose to ride either in a mens or women's field. i think the weirdest part is the fact she was the only one in the women's field before.
  • + 3
 @pieters: what you say is logical. But as I wrote, in sport there are strong emotions and people behave weirdly. I heard about people shouting terrible things at their 5 year old children cause they weren't fast enough in push bike competitions. Some people just go mad and can do everything to win and will blame anyone if they don't win. Absurd as hell but welcome to life.
  • + 5
 @kateweatherly: I think that's fair, and I really appreciate you taking the time to put forward a well-reasoned and dignified response, It's a tough situation; on the one hand no one wants, or should have the right to deny you an opportunity to build and enjoy the life you want for yourself. But there's no getting around the fact that someone in your situation will probably have benefited from their physiology before their change in ways other than simply having a higher raw power. Skill, experience and being comfortable at speed are other important components of being fast on a bike and you may have advantages here that your current competition don't. The fact you went from being a regular top 10 in Open Men, which you describe as casual, to winning Elite Women while undergoing challenging life-altering medical procedures and following the associated medical protocols would indicate there is something to claims about those benefits. The rules say you're eligible to compete. You've obviously followed the rules exhaustively and you've even gone as far as to say you'd sooner stop competing that win unfairly, which I believe you would do if you thought your advantage was not simply down to your own effort.
I think the larger question of how to appropriately consider transgender athletes in a way that's fair to everyone is likely to remain an issue for some time. It definitely won't be resolved here. I think you're a positive addition to the debate though, someone genuine and fair-minded. I wish you all the best.
  • + 3
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: Essentially it boils down to perception. As soon as people get an idea in their heads, they tend to stick to it, especially if it's simplistic and an unchecked certainty. And even the advent of science and rationality has failed to persuade humanity at large on a few topics. Essentially, will sporting opponents ever be able to completely block it out of their minds even if the medical side is totally nailed down? So it's a tough gig for you Kate, but if going through this public shitshow (maybe not for the first time) isn't enough to make you think twice about racing then I don't think you'll be that easily knocked offline in your endeavours.
  • + 0
 @kateweatherly:

You claim you haven't gone through male puberty because you took hormone blockers at age 17?

I don't take that seriously at all, myself and every guy I know hit puberty between ages 11-14. By the time I was 17 I and most of my friends were already physically full grown men. I know tons of guys that could grow beards by age 15. To say you didn't hit puberty is flat out BS.


I don't care if you want to be Trans, but competing against biological women trans men have an extremely unfair advantage. If you really care about the sport think about all the women you are beating, don't they deserve a fair chance to compete? You are taking away their potential careers.

Maybe consider a career in freeride?
  • + 5
 @brutaldroppin: The thing in the NZ context is the number of female racers is very small and Kate is regularly beaten by other female competitors - so in practice she doesn't really show an unfair advantage. Also as Kate said, if Tracey Hannah turned up for a race she would smash everyone!!! It might be a different story if we had a huge field of female riders and Kate was clearly winning by a huge margin then it might be a worth looking at some form of different class. But for now it seems like the best option to allow Kate race DH.
  • - 4
flag Intense4life (Jan 22, 2018 at 20:30) (Below Threshold)
 @kateweatherly: I really don’t read any comments here that are degrading. Aside from the odd redneck verbiage.(your crude words being the most shocking) I’m sorry Kate but you have a long road ahead of you and you better get used to the challenges as there will be many. I’m happy for you that you were strong enough to fight for your true identity. You’ll find peace now I’m sure. All that being said, every time you compete, your choice effects someone who hasnt had past/current biological or psychological advantages. This weekend you robbed Shania’s of a win, maybe a dream for her as well? Next weekend I girl won’t stand on the podium in third but instead on the grass in fourth. You do have control of this. Have a nice life champ.
  • + 6
 @Intense4life: To be fair I think Glandular Fever robbed Shania more than anything.
  • + 0
 @StackingItSince1991: the whole point of the thread is fairness. Glandular Fever didn’t get the gold either.
  • + 6
 @brutaldroppin: well I'm sure you know people who went through puberty very early however I didn't, I was a very sick kid and didn't start a growth spurt (I was about 150 cm tell when I was 16) and puberty until 17, I've got X-rays at 18 showing growth plates which aren't fused showing I wasn't done with puberty. But I've said what I need to say at I think @stackingitsince1991 has covered everything else. I know it's a hot topic but as long as I'm the same speed as the other girls and the governing bodies say I can compete, I'm going to compete. Because as said if Rachel Atherton moved to Nz she would be beating everyone by a long way.
  • + 6
 Guys, chill! Riding is supposed to be fun. This is what I meant when I said that some people treat winning too seriously. If someone's life is broken by another person taking the podium, he should go to therapy (I'm not joking). Especially in the case of this sport which should be all about fun. Kate did what she could, I hope the Kiwi mtb scene is cool enough to be fine with this. She said she doesn't want / can't compete at international level, so where's the problem. It's not that she's robbing other girls of some immense riches or whatever.
  • + 7
 @Slabrung: I don't think the original post was aimed directly at Kate, it was a question regarding trans athletes in sports. Its a shame it has devolved because it is an interesting/important topic.
You're right, riding is supposed to be fun, but this is competing- so its not JUST about fun, careers and livelihoods can depend on it. That's why its a conversation that needs to be had.
In this case ill stand by my original comment, if @kateweatherly wins by 10 minutes its still a fair and valid win because she has met all criteria set by the UCI/NZ cycling to compete, and by the sounds of it this involved an individual case assessment- which is probably the only real way you can determine whether there is actually an advantage or not.
The saddest part of this is that she has had to defend the result herself which isn't fair. As much as its embarrassing for the athlete, surely the governing bodies should make some kind of statement post assessment to reassure competitors that no unfair advantage has been gained- then there is no pressure on the athlete to defend themselves.
  • + 6
 @Slabrung:
No offense intended but as adults we should have logical discussions.
When competing on a professional level it's about more than just having fun. People's careers are at stake.

It would not be fair for me as a full grown man to race against children, even if I act like a child; and in the same regard it is not fair for a biological male to compete against women.
These are the same principals why it's considered taboo, and unfair for men to fight women, we are biologically built differently.

Feelings and being politically correct do not Trump science and biology.
  • + 2
 @kateweatherly: what do the other girls think? Have they said anything to you about it? I don't know if the Rachel Atherton comparison is fair. I mean, I race in the Open class and get decent results, but I wouldn't consider the fact that Rachel Atherton is faster than me enough to justify my competing in the women's category should I be trans.

The women's field seems as small in NZ as it is here, a good move might be to illustrate your point this season by racing some more international events and proving to people that you aren't some kind of superhuman.

Good luck at the final round!
  • + 6
 @AlanMck: I'm very much in this boat as I haven't competed against any other high level (and fully fit) kiwi girls so far this year, I will be competing in the NZ national Champs and Crankworx (which normally brings at least a few pro woman) and I'm willing to bet that they will smash me but I think before people jump down my throat about political correctness, like you said lets wait and see how I actually compare. Also this kind of thing needs to not be a blanket statement because there are plenty of born men who are smaller and weaker and thus less suited naturally for sport than some born woman, its too hard a topic to say that "all men have an advantage of all woman" which is what some people here seem to be saying. I think this conversation is pointless at this point anyway because until I can prove with results against other girls as healthy/race ready as me people aren't really going to listen.

Also I have spoken to some girls I race against and some are really cool with it and think it will be positive for the sport and others are like the majority on here and think I'll have a negative impact, the positive peoples view is that like in the men's field there will be more pressure for everyone to get better and go faster.

As I said before if I start winning every race and thus impact our sport negatively then I'll stop racing, because regardless of whether that person who wins is trans or not only having one winner gets boring fast.
  • + 7
 @kateweatherly: The problem you've got is depth of field. Sounds like you're alone in being fully fit, which has more of an impact on the results than anything and puts you in a spotlight. No wonder trans athletes try to keep a lid on it (some maybe nefariously, which gives the rest a bad name). If NZ's population was 10 times bigger you'd have flown under the radar.
Hearts and minds might need you to get involved in international racing to set them straight (of course you can also tell them to do one). And if you think you're not able to challenge the big guns in other countries then you clearly haven't got much of an advantage over other girls.
Anyway, think of this as piercing the pinkbike carapace. I've certainly learned a great deal. Good luck to you.
  • + 4
 @kateweatherly: you say "Rather than having a knee-jerk reaction lets look at the individual and make a judgment based on their results and biology" but with all due respect the issue being discussed is a lot bigger than you as an individual and your personal results. It is about the fairness and ethics of how to handle transgender participants in sports. If it were a judgement based on individual results, imagine if hypothetically Brook MacDonald or Keegan Wright were to transition to female. If their results were being measured against the other woman by your reasoning you would be against them competing as woman because they were considerably faster as men?

Surely if you have the best interest of the sport at heart, advocating to have biological males compete as females can only diminish the future participation of woman in the sport? Maybe advocating for a transgender division would be more beneficial for the sport and for the transgender community as well?
  • - 2
 @SleeplessDH: Honestly you raise a fair question but the science says ((www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259) that I don't have any advantage and for all, we know a pro level men's athletes may lose their speed similar to how I did? I don't know, all I know is that I'm following what the UCI/IOC and various national sporting bodies dictate and can show (at least in my case) what they say is accurate with a loss of strength and speed.

Although you are right this isn't just about me I have had people message me directly to tell me to stop racing so I do feel like at least to some degree I need to justify my own place in this sport.
  • + 3
 @kateweatherly: You may not have an advantage but that reference doesn't support your claims that transsexuals are competing on a level field; "In summary, there is limited research from which to draw any conclusion about whether transgender people have an athletic advantage in competitive sport or not. The limited physiological research conducted to date has informed the development of transgender sport policies that are implemented by sporting organisations all over the world." It's an open question at best and due to the relative rarity of individuals in your specific situation it won't be addressed quantitatively (read: correctly) for some time. A lack of evidence does not mean there is no evidence. It simply means that, in general, we do not know yet.
The authors of that article, while all heavily qualified individuals in areas such as medicine, psychology and *gender studies*, are not sport scientists that are experts in human physiological performance (one is a faculty member of the Sport Science department at Loughborough University, world-renowned for it's sport science research but their expertise seems to be in the experiences and psychology of transgender athletes/ those who participate in sport, not the quantitative analysis of athletic performance. The other author at the same institute is still currently working on her PhD.)
From the only article included in the authors references which investigates the physiological capacity of post-op transsexuals: "The question of whether reassigned M-F [Male-to-Female Transsexuals -Ed] can fairly compete with women depends on what degree of arbitrariness one wishes to accept, keeping in mind, for instance, that similar blood testosterone levels in men have profoundly different biologic effects on muscle properties, rendering competition in sports intrinsically a matter of how nature endows individuals for this competition." Men's bodies and behaviour respond differently to testosterone than women's bodies and behaviour. Men's bodies can 'do more' with less testosterone, as they have receptors primed to accept and use it.
I've said it before, but it's worth repeating- I'm not suggesting you should stop mountain biking and I don't believe you specifically need to stop competing. I think in your particular case, all things considered no one is being unfairly advantaged. I also think you have a good attitude about it all, but if you're going to argue your case, you should learn to cite good science. Typically science done well doesn't reference entertainment news articles, and they certainly don't make claims on probabilities being absolutes, especially without appropriate data:
From the article you cited:"For example, Caitlin Jenner, a former athlete and current television personality, recently came out as transgender during a television interview that was viewed all over the world [7]. "
7. Dooley S, Dawson M, Zak L, et al. “Bruce Jenner: ‘I’m a woman’”. 20/20/ABC News. Available from: abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/bruce-jenner-im-woman/story?id=30570350. Accessed 10 Jan 2016.
  • + 1
 There are legitimate scientific differences in male and female bodies. I don't know why science causes people to be so offended. Reasonable conversations are a positive thing for the subject.

stream.org/transgender-athletes-biological-difference
  • - 3
 @brutaldroppin: Last time I checked an op-ed on Stream was ranked just above used toilet paper in the heirarchy of where to get credible info. And it was going so well up until you linked that garbage. Brutaldroppin[ItAtTheLastMinute] by name...
  • + 4
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:
Regardless of the source, did you read the article? Are you going to tell me the points they made are incorrect ?
See the thing is, all the points they made in the article are correct.
  • - 1
 @brutaldroppin: maybe they are correct but they are not quantified. for example its says vo2 max is higher in men but doesn't say by how much and doesn't give the scientific study so you dont know how they came to the conclusion.
  • - 1
 @brutaldroppin: The source matters very much. In this case the author has preconcieved ideas that they then justify (lazily I might add) with articles chosen specifically to support their claim. And your own prejudice is apparent too, since you've posted the same link ad naseum all over the comments section. Your behaviour is boderline abusive. Yes, I read the article. I even read the one academic article the author linked about gait analysis of 20 male and 20 female recreational runners and the subsequent comparative analysis. It's hardly relevant to the current discussion (competitive advantages, and to a lesser extent elite level competition). And while all the points made in the article may be correct, they are far from comprehensive in explaining the complexities of the issue. Not even close. Ask yourself: did the author of your article address, or attempt to acknowledge how effective the medical intervention prescribed to pre and post-op transexuals in correcting for the differences? You know what they say about opinions and arseholes. You'd do well to learn how use empirical results to form your own, however simplistic, than rushing to promote someone elses and being sent packing with your tail between your legs by someone who did the gruntwork you, and the author of your link neglected to.
  • + 0
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: that's a big can of academic whoop-ass.
  • + 1
 @kateweatherly: I'm with you whatever you do 100%. Just for the future though...and of course if you keep pushing and progressing, why not just race in the men's category and have fun telling the dudes you beat that they got beat by a chick...haha...seems like a lot more fun, no negatives, and you can always push like hell without holding back.
  • + 4
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: lol. Being a psudo-intellectual doesn't make your points any more valid. However since you are so bent on being politically correct, I will lay it out for you. You're basically saying that even the simplest concepts need excessive academically ceditided sources, which is completely not necessary. You call it abusive prejudice ? Lmfao. Think about all the professional women who are beaten by " women " who were born biological men. Is it not abusive to fair sportsmanship that their chances at winning are being unfairly taken away by people with an unfair advantage? Men are biologically stronger than women, that is a well known simple fact, and we dont need any new studies to prove that fact. If we want equality, then either we cut out gender classes in races all together, or not let men race against women. Sorry buddy, but surgery and hormones do not change a person's DNA. Lol, I honestly can't stand psudointellectuals, but please use all the best buzzwords to imply thay i am a bigot. I guess all the people who don't want biologically born males racing against women are just bigots since we don't want female athletes competing against those with unfair dvantages.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: one more thing. Would you want a biologically born man to fight your wife/girlfriend/Or daughter in a professional boxing match, even if that man had a sex change and was now a woman? Would you feel like that is a fair fight ? Don't lie to yourself buddy. I could not care less about people getting sex changes, but if one wants to advocate for equality, then one should be rational.
  • - 2
 @brutaldroppin:
I don't think many people are born men. Giving birth to a man would put a terrible strain on the maternal pelvis.
  • - 2
 @brutaldroppin: Yes, I'm saying that even the simplest concepts need to be investigated and quantified so they can be addressed correctly and we can build further on those empirical results. Because without considered and quantified investigation we'd all still believe the Earth was flat and the sun and the stars revolved around our insignificant little planet. And you're wrong in your conclusion about strength differences- men are *on average* stronger than women. Not all men are stronger than all women. To claim otherwise is so ignorant it's shocking; Anyone who believes that is a fool. There is an overlap, however small. Which means some women are actually stronger than some men. I lifted weights to a pretty decent level, and I would struggle to match the world-record weight snatched by the lowest women's weight class at the Olympics. Ask yourself, if 220lbs is a decent standard for a benchpress for most men, how many could reasonably be expected to lift 215lbs over their head, from the ground in a single movement?
As for pseudo-intellectual and politically correct... I'm sure you feel better thinking I'm some left-leaning sap who hoovers up everything CNN and Oprah shovels out, but I'm neither. I simply look for the truth of an argument, because the actual science and data behind an argument is what truly matters if your to make your mind up about something. And that approach would place me on the right in ideological terms more often than not. But I don't recognise you as someone I would associate with. So ask yourself if your ideas are mature enough for this conversation. Because from what I've seen, you're just a child with silly notions of the world like all snowflakes (left or right).
And as for whether I'd want some woman I care about to fight a biological man... I'd definitely like to see you try to win a fight against my mom. Then we'd really get to see how accurate that handle of yours is.
  • + 4
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: I could mop the floor with your moms face with one hand tied behind my back.
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:
I'm actually going to take the time to respond to you sir.

Cute strawman technique. You've outed yourself as the type of person you are (a condescending psudointellectual) , and I have no interest in any type of debate with you. People like you are the reason why so many people would rather troll the internet instead of having sensible debates.

If you claim to be so focused on statistics, and empirical data points; then please reconsider your methods of debate. You act as if you are making intelligent points by using strawman technique to sneak in low blows. For plebs, your strawman technique may sound intelligent, although for individuals who actually have an educated vocabulary you just sound like an emotional adolescent; typing as much as possible to try and prove your point. Try being blunt instead of using politically correct sesquipedalian tangents, that way you might not come off like a douche bag so much, and people might take you more seriously.

Either way, have a good night and bike on. I hope Kate keeps biking and having a great time, however I don't believe it's fair for the women she is racing against. Forgive me for not explaining why water is wet in a pinkbike comment section.

P.S
I think we both feel the same about the original topic, so let's be adults and agree to disagree about our methods of communication. Just remember, before dismissing others for being blunt, that a shortly summarized explanation is always more efficient than over emphasis. You have contradicted the original points you made in the comments by getting into a hissy fit with me.

Have a good life.
  • + 1
 @brutaldroppin: If you actually took the time to re-read all that has been written here by each of us, you'd realise in very short order who was employing straw-man tactics, who has consistently dodged responding to evidence-based arguments intelligently, who was being childish and emotional and who is now feigning indignation and illiciting victimhood to dig themselves out of a hole of their own making.
I haven't contradicted myself; I've been consistant when I make my arguments that I personally think in this specific case no one is being unfairly advantaged or disadvantaged physiologically, but there's little evidence I or anyone can use to support our positions on even that point, let alone the myriad of other attributes and qualities that go into making some people more or less successful in their endevours.
I've pointed out that op-eds and biased journalism are never a suitable replacement for empirical data.
I've called you out as willfully ignorant for your insistance on posting multiple inflammatory comments, with the same link containing easily debunked trash if you took 5 minutes to research the claims for yourself. It's also impolite behaviour at best but easily falls into the realm of abusive behaviour when it's directed unfairly at an individual.
You might be right too; superficially and taking the simplest case (since that seems about all you're willing to do, I'm reserving judgement about whether you're actually capable of it) - you and I might agree about fairness in sport, but we have very, very different ideas about personal accountability and how to treat respectable people.
I take your point about my long responses, but it's simply a function of trying to communicate complex topics accurately and with respect to those it is aimed. You should try it sometime, and not just spew lazy, gross generalisations as stated fact.
  • - 2
 @TrevDHmaster: What a coincidence, that's her signature move. Maybe she'll have a few pointers for you.
You can sign up for a shot at her here: www.feministfightclub.com/jointheclub
Having a name like 'Trev' won't hold you back. They admit anyone who identifies as female...
  • + 0
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:
How amusing, even though you wrote 4 articulate paragraphs; your entire point is basically along the thought process of "my dad could beat up your dad", or "I'm right you're wrong" although just disguised in pseudo intellectualism.

Nice try though white night.

As far as the original topic, it's pretty clear cut. Just look at how many transexual women dominate in various sporting events against women who have xx chromosomes. Sure there are exceptions, but exceptions are not the rule. That's why there are gender classes in the first place. If you want to get personal, then be blunt. The person who felt compelled to imply they didn't hit puberty at age 17 competed against men at a near professional level just about 2 years prior, racing at speeds and times that would beat professional women on the same tracks. If that individual didn't hit puberty there is no way he (now she) could have competed at such a level. To say otherwise would implying that it would be fair for prepubescent children to race against teenagers, and adults.

"being childish and emotional and who is now feigning indignation and illiciting victimhood"

That's even cuter, too bad your grammar isn't on the same level as your vocabulary. You claim I'm an impolite bully? Well excuse me, I think it's rather impolite that some guy can put on a wig and compete against women in professional sports. How's that for impolite? The only victims in the whole discussion are the professional female athletes who get stomped by trannies.
Just because you feel the need to over emphasize, and over articulate every point in order to be politically correct doesn't mean others have to do the same in an open forum.

I'm not offended, or taking any victimstance. On the contrary the whole subject is bullsh*t. There are gender classes for good reason, and cosmetic surgery doesn't change the root cause of the reasons why there are gender classes. Hormone replacement therapy is reversible, and so is cosmetic surgery. Men are faster, and stronger. It's not fair for men to race against women. Political correctness does not change that fact, and in this day and age there is no way for a man to actually become a biological woman.

Like I said earlier, people like you are the reason why so many would rather troll than actually engage in in depth discussion.
  • + 3
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:
For you're information I self identify as a transexual female who identifies as a man and I don't like you appropriating my gender identity. I would think a guy raised by a feminist would no better than to discriminate against minorities I bet you voted for Trump too
  • + 2
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf:

This will be my last comment, just a reference of the race times. Looks like Kate is capable of getting top ten in mens, if you look here you will see that Kate actually was faster than a few of the men.

nzdownhill.co.nz

However, Shania Rawson (a previous world cup champ) was no where close to the men, but keep in mind Shiana was placing first in the past by large margins before Kate was racing womens.

Elite Mens Podium

1st - Brook MacDonald ( 3:02.66)
2nd - Cole Lucas ( 3:05.54 )
3rd - Keegan Wright ( 3:05.70 )
4th - Guy Gibbs ( 3:10.92)
5th - Peter Bethell ( 3:11.90 )


Elite Womens Podium

1st - Kate Weatherly ( 3:32.31 )
2nd - Shania Rawson ( 4:07.11 )
3rd - Cati Pearson ( 4:36.62 )
  • + 2
 @brutaldroppin: Now we've finally got something worth talking about. Kate's performance is not outside/ above the recorded range typical of elite women when compared with their male counterparts:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3761733
But as I said to her above, the fact she's achieving at such a high level, so soon after her treatment raises questions. She can't be held accountable for how much she wins by, as I understand it Shania is suffering from Mono and a gap of a minute between competitors is not unusual in women's DH. But her performance isn't anything unexpected.
  • + 3
 @brutaldroppin: I'm really over this whole conversation at this point but don't make claims about things you don't know for sure about, I wasn't racing ever at a "near professional level" (If I had cycling NZ wouldn't have allowed me to swap its one of their rules, I couldn't have raced pro-elite men for at least 4 years before swapping), I raced in the casual men's field, not the elite field (fastest causal man wouldn't normally be top 5 in elite) and barely ever got top tens. Also at the Rotorua race Shania, who normally would be far closer to me, has glandular fever and fell over after her race run in severe pain, she was far from racing at 100%. Normally she would be much closer to me.

e.g. at the last race, she was fully healthy for, my fastest run was a 2:23 hers was a 2:26 and the winning elite woman Vinny Armstrong had a 2:22.
Another race, Shania had a 2:19 and I had a 2:16, Vinny a 2:17
Or another recent race where (a very jump based track where I hit all the jumps and Shania did not) I got a 2:32 and she got a 2:37. At the time Vinny wasn't even really training and she beat me, whereas I train my butt off, that's just racing.

The reason I am fast is that I am in the gym 4 days a week and ride 3 days a week, I train harder than most of the men in the men's field and yet I can barely pull at top ten. I'm performing at a high level straight away because I've spent the last 2 years training as hard as any of the other people who compete at world cups, men or women (given not the pros but at a privateer level). I've had to push myself to hit the jumps and hard lines to feel good about myself and try to be competitive in the men's field so that would explain why I do tend to beat the other girls, however, its never by a crazy amount.

Also if you wanna have a respectful discussion about fairness in our sport I'd appreciate it if you didn't use abusive language such as trannie. I'm done here but I don't think its fair for you to make claims without all the evidence or to assume I'm some near world cup racer who's put a wig on and speaks in falsetto.
  • + 1
 Also as a point of comparison at the first race example I gave, the winning men's time was a 2:00, so at around 20 seconds behind my results are fairly consistent, I haven't gotten any faster from those races to this race, it was just I didn't have any healthy/fit elite woman competition.
  • + 1
 @kateweatherly: You response still seems to be about comparing your personal situation and results which should be irrelevant to the bigger point in question here. The fact that you were quick as a man but not quick enough to be up there with the top men cannot be a justification to race the woman when you chromosomes say your a man but you heart and chemically altered testosterone levels measure you closer to a woman. Shania Rawson's health at this event is also irrelevant to the point in question.

If you take this to the full extent of what is possible, if hypothetically the top 10 men were to transition to woman do you sincerely believe there would be a future for genetic woman in this sport? or any other sports dominated by genetic males? Or would you think males at the top should not be allowed to transition if they felt it were right to do so?
  • + 2
 @SleeplessDH: As I said I'm done with this conversation if you have a problem with me or other people racing contact the UCI or their countries cycling governing body. Because clearly, you know more than the sports scientists working for the UCI and IOC? Your claims are at odds with the studies done by the IOC and I'd love to read your peer-reviewed study which proves that trans woman has a physical advantage over born woman (beyond the normal advantages within each gender, I mean we don't stop Michael Phelps swimming because he has the ideal body for swimming). docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/2bc3fc_c2d4035ff5684f41a813f6d04bc86e02.pdf

Lower T levels cause muscular atrophy, bone density changes, muscle fibre characteristic changes and a bunch of other changes which shift the athlete's physical abilities from that of a man to that of a woman, the same way a trans man would get stronger and gain more bone density from adding T.

This is a hard conversation and we can't make blanket statements like saying every trans woman has an advantage over every born female, but I don't think we can say that every trans woman doesn't have an advantage over every born woman, I think decisions about competing need to be left up to governing bodies. The Cycling NZ policy covers your statement about the top ten pros nicely and you can give that a read here: www.cyclingnewzealand.nz/media/3449/3449.pdf

For anyone interested in this subject this interview covers the reasoning behind the current IOC and UCI transgender policies: www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018629548
  • + 1
 @POWsLAYER: What exactly is your point? There's no debunking of anything empirical in the author's essay, and it is full of nonsense jargon, baseless victimhood and digressions into pathetic, politically-correct drivel.
  • + 0
 @hamncheez: "Claims that trans women are not women often rely on essentialist (and therefore incorrect) assumptions about biology. For instance, people might argue that trans women are not “genetically female,” despite the fact that we cannot readily ascertain anybody’s sex chromosomes. Indeed, most people have never even had their sex chromosomes examined, and those that do are sometimes surprised by the Results.
Other common appeals to biology center on reproduction — e.g., stating that trans women have not experienced menstruation, or cannot become pregnant. This ignores the fact that some cisgender women never menstruate and/or are unable to become pregnant."
  • + 0
 @hamncheez:

Claims about genitals are similarly problematic: Women’s genitals vary greatly, and as with chromosomes and reproductive capabilities, we cannot readily see other people’s genitals in everyday encounters. If you and I were to meet, should I refuse to recognize or refer to you as a woman unless you show me your genitals? And frankly, what could possibly be more sexist than reducing a woman to what’s between her legs? Isn’t that precisely what sexist men have been doing to women for centuries on end?

I would argue that all of these appeals to biology are inherently anti-feminist. Sexists routinely dismiss women by pointing to real or presumed biological differences. Feminists have long challenged the objectification of our bodies, and have argued that we are not limited by our biology. So it is hypocritical for any self-identified feminist to use “biology” and “body parts” arguments in their attempts to dismiss trans women."
  • + 0
 @Deuce-DeuceAndAHalf: did you happen to check links in this particular article?
may i ask, what is YOUR point? mine is that the distinction that Mr. Sandwich up there is trying to make between Kate and "biological females'' is a fallacy.
  • + 1
 @POWsLAYER: No, it's fact. The man is right. I read the entire article (which is why I was able to summarize it so succintly). It's complete garbage. Amenorrhea or abnormal genitalia do not disqualify a woman from being female. Being born a male and requiring significant medical and surgical intervention to alter your body to give it a subset of female characteristics does not make one a biological female. Your willful ignorance and that of the author are remarkable.
  • + 0
 @POWsLAYER: your assertions that biology cannot determine sex invalidates the term 'cisgender', since that term is being used to label people "comfortable with the gender they are born in", and 'born in' makes no sense if we cannot use science and biology to determine what is male and what is female. Intersex individuals, meaning those who have ambiguous chromosomal and/or genitalia, are an extremely small part of the population and is not what we are talking about here. Your quotes from an activist who is neither a scientist nor internally consistent simply don't stand up to scrutiny. There are some weird human-powered machines out there with two wheels, but may not be properly called a bicycle, like the penny-farthing, recumbent bikes, e-bikes, etc. These edge cases do not mean I cannot classify my Specialized Tarmac as a bicycle. The existence of gravel bikes does not mean I cannot clearly identify my Tarmac as a road bike.

Maybe in the future, in certain societies, those individuals will find it best to treat trans people exactly as if they were their preferred gender. However, no matter whether that kind of acceptance becomes mainstream, once feminized men, or people who have male endocrine and sexual systems, despite any standard of "hormone treatment" (a very poorly defined term) compete against actual women then the viewership, sponsorship, and participation of womens sports will all but cease.
  • + 0
 @nickkk: If I could upvote your comment a million times I would, love how you put it.
  • + 0
 @shredddr: I'd say we have come a hell of a long ways in the last 15 years as far as acceptance goes wouldn't you?
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: Leave it to a guy from provo to tell you how it is, the same people that believe in mythical golden plates and whom are very intolerant of the LGBQ community.
  • + 2
 @kateweatherly: Kate you do you don't listen to the haters
  • + 2
 @KillaK801: my thoughts exactly. lol
  • + 1
 @dhaddiction1 I don't think you should have the ability to voice your sh*tty opinion but alas here we are.
  • + 1
 @KillaK801: can someone genuinely tell me how to stop following this thread after commenting above? It’s been weeks now and I truly no longer GAF about this non story and I’m sick of the notifications after someone gets on it again.
  • + 1
 @nickkk: Oy get orf my dashboard!! There is a way. Don't know what it is though. Sorry.
  • + 1
 @KillaK801: Is it worth engaging with someone who uses personal attacks rather than logic, reason, and evidence?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: lol seriously! Used PB since 2001 and not had such an irritating thread.. I’m sure I’ve seen the option too but can’t see it. Doing my head in!
  • + 4
 @nickkk: Don't go anywhere near the gun thread then. It's like a black hole. I've gone blind following it.
  • + 2
 @BenPea: True that.Never again.
  • + 26
 Wish we had some video footage.......need moar racing!!! Any links to race runs would be amazing. YouTube, insta, anything...
  • + 6
 Brookie ! Good shit bro!
  • + 1
 Never saw this comment, but some 2018 NZ DH Nationals Race clips:
Long player versions here: www.pinkbike.com/u/oldguyridingbikes/blog
or on YouTube here: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUZzR-YcYZeydWjUmHkHIUlw-REctqW2i
or short 60 sec versions here: www.instagram.com/old.guy.riding.bikes
  • + 1
 @oldguyridingbikes: you're awesome...thanks...although that 8 mins of ratboy pov can almost hold me over till WC's...almost, cant wait for F1 and MotoGP as well. CHEERS
  • + 11
 Is that 3 races in 3 weeks? They don't piss about in Unzud.
  • + 12
 Yea Brook !!!!!!
  • + 10
 Those misty photos came up awesome. Nice work!
  • + 6
 NZ guys killing it for coverage Great work, Aussie Nat series was also on weekend, AU governing body hasnt even posted results on their site yet.... BOOO MTBA
  • + 1
 Never saw this comment, but some 2018 NZ DH Nationals Race clips:
Long player versions here: www.pinkbike.com/u/oldguyridingbikes/blog
or on YouTube here: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUZzR-YcYZeydWjUmHkHIUlw-REctqW2i
or short 60 sec versions here: www.instagram.com/old.guy.riding.bikes
  • + 6
 Good to see Brook winning on his new bike and team! Hope he tears it up this WC season.
  • + 7
 Looks like many of the contestants forgot their gloves again
  • + 4
 Wait till one of em' crashes and rips all the skin off, that might 'jog' their memory lol;
  • + 26
 NZ Customs don't let gloves into the country, General Steeze By-law of 2012.
  • + 3
 To get things back on track, thanks for the excellent article Pinkbike. Is it just me or are the New Zealand and Austrailian Nationals some of the best DH National coverage going?
  • + 1
 Never saw this comment, but some 2018 NZ DH Nationals Race clips:
Long player versions here: www.pinkbike.com/u/oldguyridingbikes/blog
or on YouTube here: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUZzR-YcYZeydWjUmHkHIUlw-REctqW2i
or short 60 sec versions here: www.instagram.com/old.guy.riding.bikes
  • + 6
 Some of the best race coverage photos I've seen - all bangers
  • + 2
 Ya we had great photography
  • + 5
 Love these race reports, great pic's...Congratz to Brook, and Kate..Goooooooooo Brook..
  • + 0
 The women’s results certainly gained my interest due to the smashing difference between 1st and 2nd. As it is a new name in the women’s list; curiosity reigned.
I am up to speed now and I will throw my 2 cents worth in.
Do what you want and feel with your body. Don’t care. However, when it comes to sporting activities and the changeover of genders - well a can of worms gets opened.
It is physically obvious that when a man changes to being a woman - they definitely retain attributes that are inherently male (not talking about appendages). Hormone therapy alters certain aspects over time but that takes time.
Women changing to men is different because they start out less physically strong and build from there.
Questions for anyone who can clarify because I have some obvious ones.
Firstly here is the link to Cycling NZ in relation to transgenders guidelines:
www.cyclingnewzealand.nz/media/2610/2610.pdf
1. Has the 4 year notice period been provided to the governing body?
2. Have the testosterone levels been met as per the guidelines?
As I only have the results and photos provided; I am yet to be convinced.
If I was a fellow competitor I would be asking way more questions before I was satisfied and I would want proof of it.
If all is confirmed as per the guidelines then compete away. Until then - I remain sceptical.
  • + 4
 If you don't like it feel free to make a complaint to CyclingNZ, it's not really about whether some random guy on the internet is convinced though.
  • - 3
 There is a lot more to it than testosterone

stream.org/transgender-athletes-biological-difference
  • + 2
 @Barbeer66, as I said in previous comments I've met all requirements set by the UCI and Cycling NZ above and beyond, also the only reason the winning margin was so much, was because second place was sick and 3rd hadn't ridden downhill before.
  • + 1
 Hmm..
  • + 0
 ..
  • + 2
 Lol, that Kate guy is smashing chicks.
  • + 3
 What trail did they ride?
  • + 3
 @FurryCrew: Aha, I didn't recognize it, but maybe it has been logged since 2015?
  • + 3
 @Startgas: @Startgas: yeah but just the bottom 1/3 of the track which is now out in the open
  • + 2
 @bthomson84: Okay, thanx for the info
  • + 3
 Brendan Regan was seriously twisting throttle ! Look at the pic Big Grin
  • + 2
 Wow those are massive gaps in the womens field. The first plavwd girl was freakin pinned
  • + 7
 Because the winner of the girls race is a dude in the middle of a sex change!????
  • - 23
flag nug12182 (Jan 21, 2018 at 4:24) (Below Threshold)
 @ArchieDH: yeah that's bullshit!That shouldn't be allowed.So if I put a wig on and tuck my dick does that mean I get to race womens category?
  • + 18
 @nug12182: that takes the biscuit for the most offensive thing on PB...today. Well done.
  • + 6
 @nickkk: I know and I'm sorry.Just seems very unfair.
  • + 5
 @nickkk: I mean they wouldn't let a woman with a prosthetic dick and a haircut race in mens
  • + 1
 @nug12182: I forgive you. We all make mistakes on PB. *cracks beer top
  • + 2
 @FrozenTreads56: had to upvote this in all its surreal glory.
  • + 0
 @Lagr1980: i got neg props for saying it, but ima say it again. Thats a dude. His name is Carson Rayner (just had to click on the pic and make a quick search on googl).
  • + 3
 Great pics
  • + 3
 Sweet pics!
  • + 2
 No such thing as chicks with dicks, it's dudes with tits.
  • + 3
 Good on ya Brook!!
  • + 3
 Awesome photos bro
  • + 1
 Killer job @cameronmackenzie
Tough shooting in the dark forest!
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