Paris Court Sides With French Cycling Federation in eMTB Trademark Battle With French Motorcycling Federation

Jan 17, 2021
by Alicia Leggett  

A Paris court has released its verdict on a case between the FFM (French Motorcycle Federation) and the FFC (French Cycling Federation), which was about whether the FFM could use certain trademarks related to e-bikes, but which may have broader implications for eMTB racing, trail use advocacy, and the image of electric-assisted mountain biking as a subsport of either mountain biking or motorcycling.

The court ruled that the FFM did not have the right to claim trademarks for names like Coupe de France VTTAE, VTTAE Enduro, French Championship VTTAE, and Trophée de France E-VTT that include terms related to eMTB racing such as VTTAE (the French term for eMTB), E-VTT (literally, e-MTB) and E-BIKE, and that those terms would properly fall into the FFC’s domain.

All in all, the FFM had to relinquish ownership of more than 20 trademarks to the FFC, and about 15 others have been canceled entirely.

If what we’ve seen so far is any indication, races for electric mountain bikes tend to work better when organized by people who have organized mountain bike races before. Remember this? Moreover, this may help set a precedent for French communities about whether to view these contraptions as mountain bikes or motorcycles, helping to keep the issues of trail access for eMTBs separate from the issue of trail access for motorcycles.

The FFM has one month to appeal this decision. For more information, find the full judgement here.


  • 112 42
 They are definitely closer to bikes than motorbikes. Good decision. It's common sense.
  • 64 46
 And from a prespective of trail erosion, speed, noise, etc., e-mtb's are pretty much identical to a normal bike.
  • 95 60
 @c-radicallis: I don't know what you've been seeing, but I know at my local trails the guys with e-mtbs do the steeper climbs at 6-8 mph when the rest of us are doing them at 3 mph, so if you consider 2-3 times as fast pretty much identical then I guess that makes sense. Also, the guys in my area that have switched from a normal mtb to an e-mtb now regularly do 20-25 mile trail rides instead of the 8-10 they used to, so again if you consider 2-3 times the distance per ride, and therefore 2-3 times the trail erosion per ride pretty much identical then I guess that makes sense. I personally don't consider things that are 2-3 times the magnitude pretty much identical, and I think more thought needs to be put into making decisions about allowing trail access for e-mtb then is currently happening.
  • 21 44
flag smgishot13 (Jan 16, 2021 at 7:40) (Below Threshold)
 @robw515: obviously you’ve never ridden a dirt bike.
  • 31 12
 @smgishot13: I've ridden many dirt bikes. I currently own an XR250R that I ride occasionally, never on mtb trails of course. I don't see how that's relevant here though, I didn't say or imply in anyway that an e-mtb is the same as a dirtbike.
  • 54 23
 @c-radicallis: can't agree with that. People can session trails easier in an ebike. My local, natural trails are taking a real beating from ebikes.
  • 59 25
 @robw515: well, then you could be comparing fit people versus unfit people. Unfit person climbs hill at 1 to 2 mph, fit person 3 to 5 mph. Unfit person rides 8 mile ride, fit person rides a 25 mile ride. Therefore fit people cause 2 to 3 more times erosion than unfit people.... Probably not the best analogy to use to try to differentiate emtbs and mtbs. Maybe think of a regular bike as a unfit person, and a e bike as a fit person....both are people. I'd say emtbs and regular mtbs are similar and not close to dirt bikes or motorcycles.
  • 36 16
 @send-it-bro: I don't agree with this, because the big and obvious difference is the motor, which will increase the speed and trail erosion for whoever is riding the e-mtb. It's not as if only unfit people are using e-mtbs, I see very fit people using them as well, so now the unfit person is doing 25 mile rides and the fit person is doing 60 miles rides. So with e-mtb riders the wear on the trail is like every unfit person is now a fit person and every fit person now has superhuman abilities, as in they are riding at levels that no person could ever do without the assistance of a motor. So no this is not the same as thinking as everyone as just being more fit.
  • 66 23
 @robw515: yeah we should all just stop riding, i hear its bad for the trails
  • 11 10
 @robw515: ok, so where I think your are right is the difference on climbing. On general riding, the difference would be minimal. On hills, I agree that emtbs would cause more erosion than a regular bike, because while someone on mtb may get off the bike to make it up the hill, the emtber may try to make his way up spinning his wheels as he does so. I've seen people do that, and that could definitely contribute to more erosion. However, steep climbs only make up a portion of a ride. For the rest, how would an emtb add to more erosion? For regular riding, either on lesser slopes or downhill, what difference is there between the emtb and the regular bike? And what evidence is there that riding 2 to 3 times the distance equals 2 to 3 times more erosion?
  • 28 7
 @send-it-bro: How could you not agree that 2-3 times more riding causes 2-3 times more erosion? If you assume that everytime you ride one lap around your local trail loop it causes a certain amount of erosion, then if you ride twice around that loop in one day wouldn't it cause twice the amount of erosion? Do you think that your second lap around doesn't cause any erosion because you consider both laps to be one ride? Erosion is proportional to amount of riding, and if you ride twice as much because you've got a motor then you cause twice as much erosion.
  • 31 12
 @send-it-bro: Those fit people are usually experienced and know how to ride without sliding down the trail. Unlike the average motorized bike rider who only rode the easy to access trails before they got a motorized bike and are now accessing trails that were previously beyond their capability. Plus new riders who’s first bike is motorized think it’s cool to ride like “eMTB” influencer twat of the month.
  • 35 8
 @jclnv: I remember back in the days of MTB Pro magazine they did a study on erosion caused by mtbs compared to hiking. Apparently at that time in the 90s there was talk of banning MTBs from a lot of trails under pressure from hiking groups. We were being unfairly persecuted according to that study.
And now the shoe is on the other foot.
Live and let live.
  • 16 5
 @robw515: another thing is, if the whole idea is to prevent trail erosion, then maybe the argument should be to focus more on sustainable trail building practices. There are many more sizable factors contributing to trail erosion, water runoff being a forerunner. Aiming to build trails that will endure under weather and designing trails that take paths across the landscape which will minimize erosion is a better action to take than focusing effort on limiting ebikes
  • 2 0
 @robw515: not sure why that posted twice
  • 16 8

have you ever participate in a marathon xcm race in a slightly moist day.. the kind of in which up to 3000 ppl take part?

do you know how the trail looks after 200-300 riders?, do you know how the trail looks after 1000?, after 3000..the trail looks like a trench war.
now use math and figure out what 3-4 times more usage does to a trail in the same amount of time?!
  • 18 9
 @jaame: Yeah I don’t agree with bikes on dedicated footpaths and hiking trails. Funny enough I don’t agree with motorized bikes on mountain bike trails. It’s easy to be all live and let live BS but people with that attitude usually have no idea of the amount of work that goes into building and maintaining trails.
  • 6 2
 @jaame: It's why we now have two separate trail systems in most parks for hikers and MTB, it would be extremely dangerous otherwise. Completely different perspective than E-bikes vs traditional MTB.
  • 4 6
 @jclnv: yeah that’s true.
  • 7 2
 @c-radicallis: i agree. Cant go any faster down than could in dh bike. Old dh bikes weigh as mich as new ebikes.
  • 5 4
 @robw515: i do agree, ebikes def allow for more use, therefore more trail work/maintenance required.
Some area may need to consider special permits(tax lol) to pay for that.
  • 29 12
 @robw515: Some EMTB riders may ride further but not all do. In fact, I've seen EMTB's do less trail damage than regular bikes, as a EMTB can get up a steeper hill more easily where a regular pedal bike would spin the rear tire a lot more trying to get up the same hill, resulting in more trail damage. Furthermore, on the straights and downhills, EMTB's are not faster and will not cause more trail damage. I've even seen a lot of trail damage caused by really deep foot prints (which is hard to pedal through) which happens when someone has to get off their regular pedal bike to push it. Also many EMTB's have wider tires (2.6-2.8") compared to regular pedal bikes (2.2-2.6"), and I've noticed the less wide tires can cause even deeper ruts (as the wider tire distributes the weight over a larger surface).

Also if someone is only 150lbs and has a 40lb EMTB compared to someone who is over 200lbs with a 35lb enduro bike, the EMTB will probably cause less trail damage. Now if you base ebike hate on EMTB's doing more laps or riding further that is probably complaining too much. What if a person rides a EMTB once a week and another person rides his/her regular pedal bike every day. If they are riding the exact same route and distance, the person on the regular pedal bike is actually riding 7x more, thus causing 7x more trail erosion. What if a family of 5 rides the same distance as someone on a ebike, as that would cause 5x more trail erosion on any given day.

I would suggest some of the ebike haters actually get out there and help maintain and build some trails instead of complaining about how EMTB's riders can choose to ride further than they can. That would be much more productive and you will see what hard work and helping others will do for everyone to enjoy riding. The most important point is that everyone gets out and enjoys this great sport as MTB is all about having fun, getting exercise and enjoying the great outdoors. It does not matter what you ride, just ride what you brought...Happy trails everyone!
  • 15 10
 @jaame: Yep. I fought in the MTB wars of the late 80's through 90's. Everybody hated us. Now there is a core crew of entitled d-bags who have no idea what we went though, doing the same crap to EMTBs. Skiers vs Snowboarders, these people have no clue that they are the exact same person. And in 20 years they will be made fun of just like these clowns:
  • 12 11
 @Chuckolicious: Ha, ha, now that's a funny old video. I also like your comments Chuck. I do remember the 1st time I tried snowboarding, the skiers did look down on me (and that was even later in the early 90's). I also remember hikers looking down at me anytime I encountered them on my bike in the trails (also starting early 90's). However, some of the hikers actually started to be nice to me when they noticed that I was building and maintaining some of the trails they were walking on.

It would be hilarious to read some of these kids (ebike haters) comments later when they finally realize how much fun riding a EMTB is and can actually afford one instead of needlessly complaining about something they obviously do not understand...
  • 14 9
 @RowdyAirTime: Biggest difference today is the insane tribalism. These kooks literally picked a bike tribe and now virtue signal to their cohorts by pissing on the opposing tribe (Ebikes). When the day comes that they do get one, the cognitive dissonance might send them over the edge.
  • 8 11
 @RowdyAirTime: The idea is to be scientific - not just come up with bunch of scenarios that back up your opinion. Take the same rider and put him on an ebike (which i don't hate btw) and the whole rig is heavier. On down hill runs there will be more momentum to stop/trash berms with etc etc. Same rider will also be able to go further/do more laps when assisted, hence more erosion. It's not rocket science!
  • 19 4
 @nukedchipp: OK, the weight thing is negligible. We already have riders that are like 150lbs fully kitted/bike, and others that are easily 300+. We have 24lb rigs, and a whole lot of 30-35lb rigs. So that's just a real world red herring. OK, sure, a rider who does more miles is technically causing more total friction to the earth than if s/he did less miles. But if you really think that has any real world effect, I just don't know what to say. Same could be said back in '89 when the first suspension forks came out. Riders will be more comfortable so they'll ride longer and go faster. Then came full suspension. Then came disc brakes. Hop on my '89 rigid Stumpjumper with cantis and see how many miles you can do, then get on your modern day rig of choice. If that won't suddenly feel like cheating, then you're just lying.
  • 10 2
 @robw515: Maybe that's the case in your riding area, maybe you have lots of loam or sand, but in my riding area most of the trails don't suffer any more erosion by a e-mtb than by a normal mtb.
On thing is for sure, they do get completely f*cked in a single run by a motorbike.

Also, what's your opinion on shuttling for dh laps?
  • 30 16
your logic is sound.. if you're 12. if you are an aduld, I've got some news for you.

You seem to be confused about what mtb-ing really is, so let me clarify that for you:

you go up a hill, rest a little, enjoy the view and the fresh air and then you go down the trail as fast as your little gummies let you.. or your skills... or both.

now, my friends and buddies that got into e-riding, used to do 1 loop on bikes in spring, autumn and early-late winter... and maybe 2 in the summer(the fittest ones) as the days are longer and it is warmer. Now, on electrics, they do 3 or 4.. and, as the battery tech keeps evolving, they will probably do more than 4 in the future. If that isn't trail erosion, I don't know what is. The simplest of example is any bike-park trail; most of them get 'effed up in a couple of weeks. If the same(or even more) no. of ppl do 4x.. 5x the riding on the same trails, what do you think it will happen?
and no, we are not talking about a 2 hour weekend e-ride that Joey does it with his wife and kids on flat double-tracks, as for that to have an impact, it would need thousands of Joeys... no, I'm talking about real mtb-ing, with real mtb-ers on mtb or natural trails!

the good for nature part of mtb-ing is the accesibility; even if you, as a rider, have all the mountain at your disposal, you can't do it all, as you don't have enough fitness and/or stamina.. - or at least, most of us don't- and that naturally limits the bad effect us humans do to the nature. With the proliferation of electrics, suddenly, the whole mountain is a Disney for outdoor playground type, limited only by the battery capacity..and, in every way you look at it, that's sad af!
  • 7 6
 @eugenux: Well said.
  • 12 11
 @Chuckolicious: Snowboarding was a counter-culture and their rebellious nature made them cool. The difference being, E-MTBers are just yuppies with too much money, and an insatiable need to boost their ego. But keep fighting the good fight to defend all those rich, lazy people and their right to ride electric mopeds up mountain bike trails...
  • 7 2
 @vinnylow: Judgmental much?
  • 6 7
 @jaame: 100%
  • 3 1
 @Chuckolicious: OK - these riders on different bikes and of different weight are what we call variables. So, same rider on an ebike will weigh more and more weight equals more erosion and trail damage both uphill and downhill. That's real world stuff. I'm 56 and know what the old bikes were like btw
  • 5 1
 @vinnylow: My sympathies. Must be hobbling.
  • 3 1
 @nukedchipp: Ok, so then answer my question. Ride my ‘89, then a modern rig. Do you ride way faster and longer and all around more aggressively?
  • 1 0
 @Chuckolicious: I for one would, probably without even realizing it
  • 2 3
 @eugenux: the best comment so far!!!
  • 5 2
 @eugenux: E bikes obviously have more of an impact on trails, and they are obviously here to stay so we might as well figure out how to make the most of it. 2-3 times more erosion, maybe. But consider the base line. MTBs aren’t exactly destructive. Maybe if you ride in the mud. To imply that trails are more important than riders is stupid. We make trails to ride them. E bikes bring new riders and dollars to our sport. This can be a good thing. Long term this should mean more trails, and more money for trails. Rather than try keep to E bikes out, let’s push for a trail fee to ride one. $5-$10 say (this would be cheap compared to moto). Or an annual membership. This money would be used for maintenance and expansion. This wouldn’t work everywhere, but you get the idea. If the real problem is trail maintenance and more trails, let’s focus on that. It’s not like this wasn’t a problem before. Now we potentially have more riders/money to help figure it out. Let’s share the sport we love.
  • 5 3
 @Chuckolicious: If my answer is yes then you've just shot yourself in the foot!! i don't hate ebikes (I've ridden them) but you must admit that they're accelerating erosion of trails. Natural trails don't tend to get the same amount of maintenance as others either. It's a problem - first world real world one!
  • 8 4
 @eugenux: There you go again shooting off nastily as usual instead of being a real man and trying to back up what you actually sayl. Unfortunately your logic is not sound, unless you are a child or maybe you are just really confused? You seem to be all worked up for nothing and your complaints are weak. I think you are too self consumed and not facing reality. Also sounds like you did even read my comments and just too quick to needlessly fire things off. Everything you said is based on what if scenario's. Some EMTB's are now 38lbs and many enduro and downhill rigs weigh nearly the same as some of the lightweight EMTB's. Seriously, how can you even think that basically the same weight will make a big difference for trail erosion? You even talk about all the trail erosion on bike parks, due to all the traffic. These are not ebikes at the bike parks, so your facts again get washed away easily and a non factor. Again, I will ask you, if Johnny rides his regular bike everyday and the ebike rider rides only once a week, who is causing more trail damage? If someone who is in better shape than you and rides further or more laps, this is causing more trail erosion. Where do you draw the line, or does it change constantly with you depending how you feel that day. Seriously, it sounds like your reasoning is based on jealousy of pedal assist bikes, not the actual facts?

You sound like a spoiled kid, Johnny next door got a new bike and I want one. Johnny rides further than me. Johnny has a better bike than me and does more laps than I can, so I'm pissed off he's in better shape than me and this is really unfair. Seriously, stop crying about nothing and just enjoy what this sport offers. I gather you hold some of these childish comments in when you are talking to your ebike friends, and just like to hide and complain behind your computer? If not, sounds like you will have no friends in the end. Is the actual problem here that you cannot keep up to your ebike friends? Seriously, get a life instead of trying to sound smart which you seem to be losing ground quite quickly...

With your reasoning, maybe everyone should just stay home and not even walk in the trails for fear of trail erosion. Unfortunately, it is a fact that MTB trails have many more riders than just 10 years ago, so we just have to work with what we have. This is called evolution and we all have to face this fact. Maybe you should actually help build and maintain trails instead like the rest of us do, or this might cut into your complaining time? Again, it's obvious if facts hit you straight in the face, you still look oblivious. Due to this, I will not waste my time repeating the facts again. Some people you just cannot explain anything to know matter how clear it is. Maybe one day you will finally be a nicer person and respect others instead of sounding like you do now, That is the only reason why I have fired back like I have, as you deserve it based on your ugly attitude towards others. I have always had a lot of respect for others, but when some kid decides he wants to try and be tough and put other people down, I will fire right back. You obviously missed this important class to do with life, "treat others how you want be treated yourself".

For everyone else, just enjoy riding your bike whatever it is...Happy trails!
  • 4 1
 @nukedchipp: If your answer was yes, I'd call you a liar, plain and simple, because you ain't no Ned Overend. Of course, technically speaking, E-bikes cause more impact. Physics is physics. But in the real world it's exceedingly negligible. I don't disagree that this should still be considered, potential problems predicted and mitigated as best as possible. It's a paradigm shift, and there will always be growing pains. But my example of old school rigid bikes compared to today absolutely stands as valid, and should show that shifts like this can be made with relative ease. Shitheads like Vinny simply demonize and dehumanize an entire group of people, and that's just shitty, does nothing to move things forward, and ultimately bites them in the ass. They are already walking anachronisms, they just don't know it yet. I guess I'm just pissing in the wind with the people that have picked a tribe, but I'm not going to stop calling them out, if only to help hasten their descent into obscurity.

Separately, so you're an old dude like me. You apparently rode back when things were mostly pirate and unsanctioned, trails were deer or hiker paths that did double duty, and suspension was crazy future shit. Put yourself back in that mindset for a minute, then explain to yourself that trails would become the engineered, machine built, berms, stunts, leaf blown, glorious stuff we have today. Can you honestly say you wouldn't have bristled at that idea? Making darn highways and Disneylands in the woods, destroying the soul of MTB? And you wouldn't have looked at a modern Enduro rig and say it's just a f*cking Moto? Come on, be honest.
  • 5 0
 @txcx166: You're a great example of a rational adult. I actually think there are more of us than the small, yet vocal minority we get here. But they still serve no other purpose than to obstruct and delay, and that just sucks.
  • 2 1
 @vinnylow: "E-MTBers are just yuppies with too much money, and an insatiable need to boost their ego" Tell that to Matt and Veronique. Come on, buddy, step up and call them out:
  • 2 4
 @robw515: let’s not forget that the e-bike is also adding an extra 10kg, which also adds to the amount of erosion caused, especially on corners.
  • 1 0
 @Chuckolicious: Nah it was shit back then!
  • 3 2
wow... aren't you a bright one? Smile ))))

now, go back and read what you have written, have a laugh at it, like the rest of us and do try to be smarter in your next reply.. or simply be even smarter than that and don't reply at all.

fyi, I am buying a light weight electric; not to do laps with it as I'm not living at the base of a mountain and, trust me, in the flatlands, an e-bike has no purpose or use. The reason I'm buying one is to speed up my 'overmountain' traverses.. or epic days. I can be with the beer in my hand in 5 hours instead of 8 while being able to function like a normal human being in the next day.
Like I have told you though, my buddies that do live with the mountain in their doorstep, most of them got one of those big burly 24-28kgs electric pseudo dh bikes, which is good for them as they can squeeze more laps.

one thing has nothing to do with the other. I'm not against (fully) electrics... I was just explaining to you how the trails will and are gettin' 'effed up from more riding on them. There are no IFs scenarios, just simple reasoning and math.
if 100 ppl do 1000 laps per week instead of 300, that trail will be' effed up much faster than before and you can bet on it.
  • 3 1
 @eugenux If you really are getting a SL or Orbea, good on you. But you really don't realize that you keep coming off as a real Ebike hater, even used that word to describe yourself in many of your comments to Ebike articles? It's fine to raise concerns about people breaking rules. Whether it be riding where they are not allowed, or hacking them to exceed speed limits. I would point out that hacks might increase the speed, but they drastically reduce battery life. So you might have a super tiny group of people who do that, but to hold them up as a clear and present danger is just silly. Same could be said about a whole bunch of things. Hell, take a dummy who overclocks the hell out of his PC without proper cooling and it could, in theory, cause a fire.

And one more time: the amount of damage modern day bikes to to trails is orders of magnitude worse than the old rigid bikes of the 80's. The number of riders that modern bikes allow to enter the sport and then crowd the trails is orders of magnitude greater than the old rigid bikes of the 80's. So where do you draw the line? Or, instead, why not simply use that established example as a guide on how to usher in this inevitable paradigm shift?
  • 4 0
 @vinnylow: damn dude, you are clueless
  • 2 0
 @nukedchipp: Yea, pretty much was in retrospect. That's why it was totally self-limiting. Could I have lapped Suicide 6 on my '92 Foes LTS with Judy SL fork, even though it weighed 25lbs and my S Works Enduro weighs 31? Nope, not even half the number of times I can now. Bikes are way heavier now than they were in the 90's, but engineered so much better that we can climb efficiently and Missy Giove all the downs. But, uh oh, that means inarguably way more trail erosion! Dem pesky physics, damn you!!! :-D
  • 1 0
 @c-radicallis: Note sure about noise. You can here them coming for quite some time climbing. Would not say they are anywhere close to identical noise wise to a normal bike. I would also question the speed unless you mean compared to WC XC rider vs a random person on an ebike.
  • 3 0
 @jaame:You are bang on mate. I was just going to reference that study. IMBA did one as well and showed hiking caused more erosion due to the uneven distribution of force on certain soil types. The first comments are totally missing the point of the ruling. This isn't whether electric bikes and acoustic bikes are different it's if e-bikes and motorcycles are the same. I used to live in an area where dirt bikes used the same trails as cyclists and they did so much damage it ruined the ecosystem. I can tell you that e-bikes do much less damage than dirt bikes.
  • 1 0
 @eugenux: Eugenics (/ j uː ˈ dʒ ɛ n ɪ k s / yoo-JEH-niks; from Greek εὐ- 'good' and γενής 'come into being, growing') is a set of beliefs and practices that aim to improve the genetic quality of a human population, historically by excluding people and groups judged to be inferior or promoting those judged to be superior.
  • 1 0
 Phonetic Evolution in eMtb on the newly launched PontificationBike and it's sister site, Shakespearean Soliloquy Bike:

.....yu jean...yu jenn...yu dumbassnux....the nux is silent (if only)....Eureka, I want one! Duuude.
  • 4 0
 @nukedchipp: I’m trying to convert everyone in my town to ebikes because otherwise our trails grow over and it is too much work for me to cut down the grass to make them rideable each year.
  • 3 0
 @eugenux: no it’s not. And that is exactly the fun scenario that I build out my riding area for. Design the trails for and maintain them for.
  • 3 0
 @Jvisscher: fugn awesome pov...
Another good marketing strategy=tickets suck, out run Em on E
  • 1 0
 @robw515: so I was just thinking about the art market, I can buy a painting from a.local artist for about 200 dollars, but museum acquisition will easily go into the 20 million, with the market topping out at 450m$. So a painting can be worth 2million times more than another one. So a emtb causing twice as much erosion as a push bike can definitely be considered pretty much the same, just a matter of context, it's not like some dude is taking his D11 dozer to the trail. The most important issue is that of of sustainability. Again, janky rooty natural trails in rainforest is fine, rock armoured trail ditto, loamer not so much. It just depends on where you set the goalposts.
  • 1 1
 @Trailtorch2100: you want me to reference the hell out of you with a Khan Noonien Singh quote?

well, forget it, I'm off to bash some 1.5 meters of snow. Let's bitch about whatever subject in 8 to 10 hours or so!

@Chuckolicious: rise ftw!
  • 1 1
 @eugenux: He tasks me. HE TASKS ME!
  • 3 0
 @Chuckolicious: I suspect a modern enduro has less of an effect on the trail than an old skinny tires hard tail. You pretty much have said that in your reply. Shall we do the whole environmental argument as well? Global warming causing extreme weather etc? No? didn't think so. I've enjoyed the rants but I'm off now. Keep safe and well.
  • 2 0
 @send-it-bro: I agree with you about an ebike having more force to accelerate uphill and hence increase erosion, though nowhere to the extent of motorbikes. However, i'd say the greatest difference would be in descending and braking in general where the extra weight of an ebike would increase the downwards force being exerted during braking. This would exert a greater force on the ground beneath and subsequently increase the risk of erosion.
  • 2 3
 @nukedchipp: What, what? As established, modern enduro rigs are a good 15-20% heavier. Heavier bike, regardless of contact patch, going same speed equals more trail, wear. That’s physics 101. However, as established, add in going way faster due to amazing modern engineering. Faster bike of equal weight, more trail wear. Heavier bike going faster? Tell the class what that means.

The topic throughout has been trail wear. Where you came up with whatever environmental thing you just blurted at the end, I got no idea. You ok, bud?
  • 3 2
 @Chuckolicious: I get it now, you're playing a game of how many things you can be wrong about, and claiming that increasing contact patch doesn't affect trail wear is your 1st wrong claim of the day, keep it up. Of course increasing contact patch affects wear. Why do you think golf carts and riding lawn mowers have wide tires? Because increasing contact patch and therefore reducing the pressure (weight distribution over a larger area) on the ground reduces the damage caused to the grass and other terrain. Stop trying to give a basic physics lesson when it's sounds like you clearly didn't make it through Physics 101. It's definitely possible and probably very likely that a bike that weighs 15% more but that has a contact patch of 100% more because it's on a 2.5 tire at 24psi rather than a 1.9 tire at 40psi is causing less erosion to the trail, which is exactly the point @nukedchipp was making.
  • 2 2
 @robw515: Sigh... point missed entirely. And biggest physics factors clearly overlooked as well. But you've clearly won the argument, so I'll leave you to it. Cheers!
  • 2 0
 @robw515: the differential is pedal assist vs throttle. I get to travel up and down and do distances that my once faster fitter self did. I dont see a Crosser Bike riding on the trails as at all comparable to an assisted, governed, low torque electric bike
  • 1 0
 @Trailtorch2100: lol, thank you for that... a subtle dose of reality, doubt he has children -ironic handle. The dude has spewed some bombastic vitriol but the self depreciating humor in his bio is a little redeeming.

"Khan", too funny..."Welcome to Fantasy Island"....except he's Tattoo :-) But probably likable if you got to know him
  • 1 0
 @GeneralGroovus: And purchased the Corinthian leather trim.
  • 1 0
 @Chuckolicious: Ha, those ads are classics. They did make a lasting impression!
  • 1 2
 @Chuckolicious: where do you think the electricity to charge your batteries comes from? I suppose to you that's just another negligible effect on the climate.
  • 2 0
 @nukedchipp: Umn, mine comes from the panels on my roof, ~90% of the time. And yea, it's not only negligible, it's nonexistent. Look up "base load" and see how that juice is being generated regardless. Oy, if that's what your argument has been rendered down to, maybe time to move along? Just a thought.
  • 73 36
 Class 1 E mtbs are mountain bikes with an assist motor. Designed to ride the same trails and provide nominal negative affect with other trail users just as non assisted bikes. They are not motorcycles with pedals.
  • 42 5
 'Class 1' is doing a lot of work in that sentence. Can a legit Class 1 ebike be discerned from non-Class 1 ebikes visually, or with any other simple, non-intrusive test? If not, then you set up a policy framework with no enforcement mechanism but the honor system, which ain't great
  • 23 7
 @Snfoilhat: yup and it ain't working. So many derestricted ebikes out there. We're seeing alot of emotos with pedal kits but are grip throttled.
  • 75 45
 Blah blah bullshit. They allow all riders to access all trails and often with repeated laps. This massively increases trail degradation. Motorized bikes also have a large climbing speed differential to mountain bikes leading to a negative experience for mountain bike riders who are “asked” to let them by. They are motorized bicycles.
  • 42 28
  • 41 25
 That's your opinion I guess. I would consider an E-bike a motorized vehicle that does not belong on a mountain bike trail system.
  • 17 33
flag stikmanglaspell (Jan 16, 2021 at 9:28) (Below Threshold)
 Anyone downvoting that @lbinegar needs their head examined. My battery died yesterday, with 30 minutes left on the trail-and guess what, I 'mountain biked' back to my van.
  • 34 19
 @stikmanglaspell: so you remembered what an actual ‘mountain bike’ is like when your moped died! !
  • 5 0
 @Jcolis1904: yup, all over California coastal board walks and bike paths.
Basically, as long as it doesnt have to have a license plate, it's allowed-or at least not being looked at here.
  • 11 1
 @Jcolis1904: Exactly the problem I've seen. Class 2's show up when the class 1's are given access.
  • 9 18
flag kleinblake (Jan 16, 2021 at 12:41) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv: oh no people might ride bikes more which will require greater access to trails. the horror
  • 17 4
 @kleinblake: No. Not more access, more shit kicked trails.
  • 6 6
 If I had to ban either the e-bike riders or the tourist (American) riders from my local trails I know which way I would vote.

Covid has been awesome for that.
  • 1 1
 @jclnv: I've read this is a myth, but is/was my concern too. Any evidence?
  • 1 1
 @jclnv: So they are motorbikes? Wink
  • 1 1
 @Sebastes: I thought I the purpose was lessped?
  • 2 2
 @stikmanglaspell: now imagine how much fun that 30 minutes would have been if your bike weighed 45% less Wink .
  • 47 13
 By all imaginable sensible definition a mountainBIKE /bicycle has NO motor. Period!
  • 8 2
  • 29 0
  • 10 0
 @nukedchip: EXACTLY! It's enough to confuse even a Card Carrying Member of the DNA !!
(National Dyslexic AssociationSmile
  • 1 0
 Fédération Française de cyclisme, Fédération Française de Moto
  • 2 0
 @kegron: Yah, I already knew that, just having some fun, and the DNA thing (to me, at least) is hilarious !!
  • 1 0
 hahahahah comment of the day
  • 37 16
 The effort put into the trail systems, the history of the mountain biking, the respect for those who came before and pushed the sport to what it is today, all those things seem trivial to the guy who buzzes past you on an E-bike on trail that you’ve been riding and enjoying for years... I feel like people who ride motorized mountain bikes simply lack the appreciation for the sport and MTB ecosystem as a whole.
  • 13 22
flag Chuckolicious (Jan 16, 2021 at 11:25) (Below Threshold)
 Huh, weird narrative you got running in your head. I actually fought in the MTB access wars of the late 80's-90's, so I know exactly the kind of people we had to fight. They have been reincarnated right here with the EMTB hate. Y'all are the exact same people. I don't have one yet, but have ridden them and love them and will have one to add to my quiver soon. Bunch of friends across the country who have them and are old school riders with both regular rigs and E-rigs. So your boogieman portrayal is just laughable and insulting to those of us who actually put in the effort to make the sport you enjoy today. Such entitlement and small mindedness, I'm ashamed of what this sport has become. And the irony of you typing "all those things seem trivial". Thicc as f*ck.
  • 9 12
 If we really respected the history of mtb, we should all be riding stingrays with nobbly tires, all this suspension and dropper seatpost - and worse - more than 3 gears is just degrading the regal and honourable history of riding a bicycle in a forest
  • 5 5
 @Chuckolicious: trollin' ain't easy.. Keep fighting the good fight to allow entitled, lazy, yuppies the ability to ride trails that are meant for mountain biking not motorized vehicles...
  • 28 8
 Guy who just bought a $10,000 E-bike:

"So glad I bought this amazing bike; I love mountain biking! It’s way easier than I thought!" #wentmtb #slayedit #sognarly #livingmybestlife #ebike #Blessed #YOLO #Winning #Fitspo
  • 38 15
 Death to eMTBs!!!
  • 26 6
 who gives a shit
  • 14 2
 I’m totally with you and have an ebike. I couldn’t think of a more lame part of the sport to watch, I want to watch the best of the sport shred not some old fart like me get up a hill with help from the bike.
  • 8 1
 Me as an E-Bike user... I'm alowed to ride the same trails as Bicycle users. Otherwise most of the tracks in my area are closed to Motorcycles.
  • 2 0
 lets all ride bikes lifes a bitch and then you die
  • 16 1
 If you can put a water bottle in it then it’s a bike.

If you can’t put a water bottle in it but it’s coefficient of erosion is less than 1.0 then it’s probably a bike (and looks like a session).

If it’s coefficient of if erosion is great than 1.0 but it does allow for the fitting of a water bottle retention device then it’s probably on back order until next October.
  • 12 1
 One problem we've had locally with designating class 1's as bicycles is once the class 1's were given access, the class 2's showed up. The traditional one way downhill trail is now dodgy because of the two way traffic. Enforcement is tough and left up to traditional trail users.
  • 34 23
 Let's face it. If you think you need an electric motor for assistance on your mountainbike and are under 50 years old, then you are a little weakling who should be ashamed of himself.
  • 15 25
flag Chuckolicious (Jan 16, 2021 at 11:40) (Below Threshold)
 Uh oh, somebody got triggered! Maybe need some hugs?
  • 16 7
 @Chuckolicious: Your hate filled posts make it sound like you are the triggered one...
  • 10 5
 I feel like this is the same as making fun of all of the people who don't go to the gym. Why does it matter to you how much excercise people feel they need to get.

There are plenty of arguments to be made against ebikes, but the "earn your turns" one is stupid.
  • 11 8
 @hmstuna: mountain biking is predicated on the athletic nature of the sport, so "earning your turns" is 100% a relevant argument.
  • 7 3
 @hmstuna: Of course, MTB also about having fun but to say that it has nothing to do with the athletics of it is somewhat short-sighted.
  • 8 1
 @vinnylow: @vinnylow: I'm not saying it has nothing to do with athletics, but the fact that people believe you need to put in a certain athletic tax to be worthy of the descent makes no sense.

Do you have a problem with chairlifts or shuttling because I would argue those require even less physical effort that riding an ebike up a hill?
  • 5 8
 @hmstuna: no problem with chairlifts at all because they are typically in parks designed for a DH style bike and riding. Perhaps we should make parks or trails designed for E-bikes.. hmm now we're talking.
  • 6 1
 @vinnylow: You're now arguing a completely different point.

My original comment was in response to the guy making fun of people who want to ride ebikes - claiming the were a "weakling who should be ashamed". You back him up saying that physical activity has always been a part of the sport and that keeping it that way is "100% a relevant argument". I did and do disagree, bringing up chairlifts which require no physical exercise to gain thousands of feet of elevation.

You haven't addressed how, say, shuttling a lift access park on an ebike is any worse than riding the lift up.

Instead you say that ebikers cause excess wear on the trails (something I generally agree with, though I think it is more complicated), but that doesn't have anything to do with people riding them being a "weakling who should be ashamed".

Perhaps you are trying to say that ebikes are bad because they allow a lower barrier of entry to the sport and therefore allow more people to ride trails more often, thereby lessening the quality of the trails, and to solve this issue we should ban ebikes and/or relegate them to their own ebike specific trails.

While I do agree that this is a problem, I think that overall getting more people into the sport of mountain biking is a good thing. I love this sport and I want to share it with others. I do think work needs to be done to mitigate the damage ebikes can cause and educate new riders on proper etiquette as well as find a way to get them to help maintain the trails they're riding. Rather than building ebike specific trails I think that money is probably better spent maintaining and building trails that everyone can ride. Obviously, I don't know how to solve all these problems, but I hope (and believe) that we will in the future.

I certainly don't believe that riding an ebike makes you a worse person than not riding one. There are good people on ebikes who use them to bring a chainsaw and clear a trail before getting in a few runs - just as there are a*sholes on regular bikes who destroy a berm thinking they are being ultra cool schralping turns.

b>I think that we should encourage people to mountain bike regardless of their level of fitness or their reasons for doing it./b>
  • 3 3
 @hmstuna: Wait, are you saying that when you backed him into the corner of his own illogic, he got all shifty with the topic? No way, can’t be! :-D
  • 3 0
 @vinnylow: Check out Kanuga
  • 3 1
 @hmstuna: We are talking about two different styles of riding and environments now, comparing an all-mountain or endurance style of riding to downhill in the context of the athletic output and how that relates to E-bikes bikes is another argument, albeit a good argument to be had. But I can guarantee the novelty of lift-access bike parks in our industry received a lot better response than the introduction of E-bikes.

Anyhow, let me elaborate on my initial point. DH bike parks are designed for DH bikes to get in as many laps as possible, and I am sure you are aware of how this style of riding and frequency on the trails erodes them much quicker than a trail-system without lift access. You would also know that they hire trail crews who put in countless hours (and money) to repair and maintain the trails that are pounded by thousands of riders every week throughout the season, but this is a known variable that DH parks have to account for, they were designed considering this fact... In that context, E-bikes carry a similar tax on a trail system that wasn't designed for them, and unfortunately, most of these systems don't have the same caliber of trail-maintenance or funding that major resort-style bike parks do, so we are at the mercy of Bike manufactures and municipalities to recognize this and try to prevent it.

Perhaps you are correct that the addition of people to the sport via E-bikes may bring more awareness and funding to our trail-systems, and let's hope that's the case. But for now, we can assume that E-bikes, that carry a lower point to entry to the sport in regards to athleticism and the frequency they are able to ride a trail due to this, along with the increased number of riders, will inevitably erode our trail-systems. Hence my suggestion to separate E-bike trails from traditional trails. Have E-bikers fund, build and maintain their own trail-systems... Similar to hiking trails, dirt-bikes trails, horse trails, etc.

I think that we should encourage all riders to join their local bike clubs to help maintain our current tails, but also ensure our governments aren’t lazy about this topic. Don’t just slap a class the E-bike and call it a day, they need to ensure our MTB ecosystems stay intact.
  • 3 0
 @Chuckolicious: glad we have cheerleaders to keep the discussion going..
  • 3 0
 @vinnylow: Exactly this. I don't have a problem with e-bikes, I have a problem with people abusing trails they didn't build.
  • 2 0
 @vinnylow: To be perfectly honest I don't feel like getting in a long debate, so I'm not going to formulate a super detailed response. In short I agree with you, ebikes can cause many problems on trails and we will have to figure out a way to deal with it.

You still haven't addressed my initial point which isn't "another argument", but actually the one we were initially having. As I said in my last commen, how is the amount of effort someone puts into climbing at all reflect on the caliber of the person doing the climbing? Perhaps they have a job where they do hard physical labor all day and just want to hit some jumps without having to grind up a hill. Or perhaps they just don't like cardiovascular activity and just want the adrenaline rush of hurtling down a hill weaving through trees. Why does it matter to you?
  • 2 0
 @hmstuna: Yeah man, too much time wasted on the internet arguing for not. But seeing you asked..

I'll be honest. Aside from the many reasons that are listed on this forum and many others, the main reason I personally can't stand E-bikes is watching someone in half my physical condition buzz past me on a 45km ride and not even break a sweat... Likely someone who otherwise wouldn't have been able to accomplish that ride. It just irks me, which I think is the reason why most people have hate towards the e-bike industry. It's important to note that this is different than a Lift access Bike Park because that's the expectation of going to a bike-park, everyone is on that same playing field taking the lift (generally).

For context, this is the same reason people in Squamish didn't like the idea of the Sea-to-Sky Gondola going in.. For decades, people hiked the trails there and it was a grind that not all could accomplish because it took physical effort and determination, and the reward was an incredible view that only a few could witness. Now every city slicker from Vancouver can just pay a fee for a tram to the top and add a new post to their Instagram.. It somehow takes away the spirit of the climb. It's no longer sacred.

This is the same way I feel about E-bikes and the direction they are pushing our sport, it's been commercialized to the masses but now with easy-access via an electric motor.
  • 1 2
 @hmstuna: He answered you, and everyone who’s called him out, with just one word: “sacred”. Sums up his position and personality... perfectly.
  • 3 1
 @Chuckolicious: ah the peanut gallery returns.. and you've summed up your position and personality perfectly with just one word: "triggered"..
  • 3 0
 @vinnylow: That is definitely an understandable reason to not like ebikes. But to be perfectly honest I think it is a problem with you not with ebikes.

Of course, it can be aggravating when you do a 100k backcountry epic that you are proud of and then hear some guy bragging about how he did it in three hours with a stop at McDonalds in the middle. But it is a different thing. Take chess for example. I can run an open source chess program (Stockfish) with the power of my phone and beat the top five grandmasters any day of any week. Yet people still play chess. Why? Because it is different playing against other people and still just as challenging as ever. Ebikes are obviously different to pedal bikes and rides that would be normally be impressive aren't.

I think people just have a hard time remembering that they have a different challenge when you see someone blow past you on a climb. If we could all keep it in mind there would be so much less hate for ebikes. To be clear plenty of ebikers exacerbate this issue by bragging or racing when they haven't actually done anything impressive.

As far as something like the Sea-to-Sky Gondola yes it definitely lessens the rarity of the view, but I don't think that is a bad thing. I hope people get opportunities to see as many beautiful things as possible in life. Something that used to be special no longer is (which is sad), but more people get to enjoy a beautiful view (which is good).The problem is that these people think that they have accomplished something special and unique (omg I made it to the top) when they did no work. In my opinion the problem is with the individual not the system.

This seems to be the natural progression and fighting would be futile.
- Niche is niche and therefore special and impressive.
- Because it is impressive more people try and technologies and techniques develop to make it easier
- New niches form because now the old one is mainstream and those people need challenge and a way to feel special (example singlespeeders)

Mountain biking is squarely in the second and third steps here. People are understandably upset that something that they used to be unique in doing is now mainstream and commercialized. Instead of complaining about the way things were I think people just need to accept it and find a new niche were they fit in. I'm buying a rigid mtb for this exact reason. I do calisthenics instead of standard gym workouts for this reason. Everyone wants an opportunity to excel and be better than others - whether they admit it or not.

Unrelated, but it is quite nice to have a respectful, thoughtful discussion on the internet. Beer
  • 2 0
 @hmstuna: Agreed. I had a few uppity comments but that's just my uninhibited passion for the sport coming through.

I can agree that we should just find our own niche and stick with it, so long as the commercialization and overuse of other niches don't crowd the sport and ruin it for anyone. That's the one important caveat to all of this, isn't it.

Anyhow, all points made were good. Nice chat. Cheers.
  • 13 0
 Also part of the ruling:

Ebikers can no longer say, “Braaaaap!”. They have say, “zaaaaap!”.
  • 9 0
 Is there a more polarising topic of discussion in mountain biking now than the subject of e-bikes?
Seems like the attitude of who cares what you’re riding as long as you’re having fun, showing respect for other trail users and the trails, has been eroded.
The downside of the growth in e-bike usage is that so many new riders have come into the sport, bought an e-bike, but have little knowledge of how to ride and how to behave.
  • 13 4
 They have infected the leaderboards too. A little annoying when trying to improve times or gauge your ability and speed then you start looking at leader boards and the top 3 are all on e bikes.
  • 12 14
 Oh look, this from the guy who claimed the number of deaths in the US didn't change from '19-'20. So now he's consumed with random unverified stats on some app to validate himself and his riding. Why am I not surprised? #facepalm
  • 4 1
 You know that Strava has a catagory for ebikes right?
  • 16 5
 Don't be affraid to call a motorcycle a motorcycle.
  • 10 3
 E-bikes will always have the look of a bicycle, after all thats the aim... Although with time E-bikes will become faster and faster.. it wont just be about saving your legs and doing a few extra downhill runs, it will be about how fast you get to the top, thus making what i know as a bicycle more like a "motorbike".
  • 6 0
 All this bull about eBikes being for lazy people and MTB is only for the "athletic" fit people.. blah blah blah
I am badly asthmatic but love doing sport and push myself hard
I do not have an eBike but I do see the day when if i want to keep riding with my sons and for all of us to keep having fun I'll need some eMTB assistance. I will do whatever I can to keep riding trails with my sons for as long as possible! My Asthma and other MTB/sport related injuries will become a limiting factor and if an eMTB is the solution then damned if i'm going resign myself to the sofa instead!
  • 8 3
 A bike with a motor on it is a mototbike. Motorbikes belong on streets. Not trails.

Ebikes should only be used by certain people, in certain situations. And only on approved trails.

I keep seeing more & more garbage on my local trails, more people cutting the trails, riding the crap out of it when it's soaked, and people tearing it up with their ebikes. There are more people on the trails, and they have NO RESPECT for said trails.
  • 6 2
 I ride with a 72 year old on an ebike and me on a hardtail, we have a blast. Glad that technology can contribute to equality of opportunity. I’m sure the kids who unlock the top speeds and all that will get bored and move onto the next passing fad and the dust will settle.
  • 6 1
 Main point is: Why federations? How much money they expecting earn with they stupid rules and trademarks? The concept of 'a sport' has an owner? Caothic....
  • 2 0
 It's not just a matter of money : if this court considered E-MTB as a motorcycle, then you canot ride most of trails in forests or mountains (witch are closed to motorcycles).
  • 5 0
 @Lolo-the-frenchie: Understood. Here in Brazil we haven't laws about it, cycling federations only exists for the money which they can earn, I'm really disappointed with them.
  • 4 1
 There is a time and a place for e bikes: its called a bike park. Where trails are correctly built for the traffic placed upon them and the levels of erosion are managed. If required too they can be segregated on different trails from regular bikers. The reason for this? Because there will always be people who take advantage of a situation, and ruin it for others. Bike parks have the staff, the trails, in order to supervise the use of ebikes. Out on the trails its a free for all.
  • 6 0
 "remember this?"

How could we forget that debacle.
  • 7 3
 E- bikes are moped's just because there is pedals,
But is a really hard job in chew up trails on an e-bike & really easy on a motorcycle?

Do FFM have moped racing?
  • 4 1
 As far as I know, European law determines whether a certain e-bike is a motorcycle or a bicycle. I do not see how communities could ban e-bikes on mtb trails if they are legally considered bicycles.
  • 2 1
 Just regulate trail repair work, does not matter who have fun on the trails as long as they maintain or pay to maintenance crew, etc.... Pedal assist bikes one of the awesomeness progress steps that was implemented over last 10 years in bike industry! More people can do recreational or commute riding despite being under certain heals conditions that restrict them from riding regular bikes.
  • 3 2
 Where I live is dry and sandy, erosion produced by ebikes is evident. What worries me the most is acces. We dont have much public land and many wire fences have been destroyed as ebikes are to heavy to be lift above. Emtb for sure is fun, it might improve your experience... this is especially true if you are short of time, unfit or just lazy, but in my opinion an epic alpine ride on a regular bike will allways be superior... the sense of acomplishment... Im definetly a purist and I try not to hate, but insisting that they are the same sport ?? For me they are so different... like windsurfing vs jetskiing, flyfishing vs trolling....
  • 2 0
 It's crazy to see so many international comments when it concerns a regulation in France. I hope it means that you all really want to come and ride a bike in our country! Which would be cool and welcome!
  • 20 17
 Banning e-bikes on mtb trails is like banning heavy set people on hiking trails
  • 45 10
 i'm cool with that.
  • 10 1
 @savagelake: ban all heavy set people on ebikes
  • 6 2
 I love when pinkbike trolls the comment section.
  • 10 9
 If you are under 55 or don’t have a disability and ride a E bike I just have no respect for you. You are the lazy one. You want things in life to be easier and try to justify it with “ I get more laps”.
  • 2 0
 I don't ride an e-bike, but my wife do. I'm not lazy, i want to make the same effort with her at my side. And i don' t have the time to do it alone one day and with her the next. For me e-bike is about sharing good moments with someone that can't follow you otherwise...
  • 5 2
 And god forbid they have any of that "fun" thing, those lazy bastards!! I bet you ride a hardtail single speed as well, cause you're not some lazy schmuck who wants things to be easy!! Bet your finger is pretty fit too, with all that finger pointing.
  • 5 2
 Do you have respect for all the WC DH pros that use ebikes for training?
  • 1 1
 If you are under 55 or don’t have a disability and ride a chairlift I just have no respect for you. You are the lazy one. You want things in life to be easier and try to justify it with “I get more laps”.
  • 2 0
 @MillerReid I checked out your Strava. All time Biggest climb: 842 feet. All time Longest ride: 11 miles. I'm not sure you're in a position to judge riders as lazy. Everyone I know who rides an e-bike does significantly longer rides than that on a weekly basis on their acoustic bikes ????‍♂️.
  • 7 4
 It is a bicycle with a motor not a motorcycle.
  • 5 2
 No one really cares tbh. Just ride
  • 3 4
 E-bikes are more of a bicycle then a motorcycle. They still require you to pedal. That FIM E-Xbike "World Cup" Race in Imola in 2019 was pathetic! It’s an embarrassment lol As much as I hate the push to bring e-bikes to the market, I still agree with the French courts in this ruling!!!
  • 8 6
 Bicycles with motors on them are indeed motorcycles.
  • 5 7
 In two years from now, we would not be able to distinguish an emtb from an mtb. So this all academic. This is where the money is, this where the industry will go. It is what it is
  • 8 15
flag Chuckolicious (Jan 16, 2021 at 11:38) (Below Threshold)
 Yep, and the vast majority of the haters here will have one and completely retcon their position. "No way, man, I always loved these things! Those haters were idiots!"
  • 7 1
 @Chuckolicious: I honestly believe that you and I look at mountain biking very differently. I’m not aspiring to own an e-bike. I ride to get away from electric gadgets, motors, noise, the masses.
  • 3 3
 @CircusMaximus: Hey man, that's totally cool. My one an only issue is with people being exclusionary, dehumanizing, and tribal savages. I'm only intolerant of intolerance.
  • 6 5
 @Chuckolicious: Stop acting like using an e-mtb on every mtb trail is some basic human civil right, and that everyone that disagrees with that is just being prejudice for no reason, that's not the truth. I'm all for e-bikes in the proper situations, such as allowing someone with a disability to get out on the trails, or as a commuter bike so you can get to work more easily without driving a car. But the people that use them just so they can get more laps in on the trails are just being selfish, in the same way as when a person with no disability uses one of those powered scooters to cruise around Walmart shopping just because they don't feel like walking. I'm so sick of hearing people talk about how many more trail miles they got in because they bought an e-mtb, or how they don't like getting too sweaty so it's great that they can get a lap in on the e-bike without working too hard. It makes me cringe, and I don't know how people say those things without feeling embarrassed. And as far as your opinion that the whole industry is going this way and soon everyone will be riding an e-mtb, I think you are 100% wrong. The point of riding a bicycle recreationally is to accomplish something under your own power and/or to get some exercise. If you're only goal is to "get the most laps in", why not use a dirtbike? I guarantee you'll get way more miles under your belt on a CRF250 than on even the most powerful e-mtb. I think and hope the industry will shift back to the point of a bicycle soon, which is that it is human powered. And to all those claiming that adding a motor is the same thing as adding suspension or using light weight materials, you're all wrong. They are very different. Innovations like suspension and carbon frames are only improving the efficiency of your own power output, but ultimately every mile you complete is accomplished by your power output. Where as adding a motor and battery means this is no longer a human only powered machine and it is capable of more than you could ever do under your own power even on a physically impossible 100% efficient bicycle. This is such a fundamental and obvious difference that I can't understand why so many people can't see it.
  • 4 5
 @robw515: OK woah on the Strawman arguments.

"Stop acting like using an e-mtb on every mtb trail is some basic human civil right, and that everyone that disagrees with that is just being prejudice for no reason"

Never said anything, I mean ANYTHING, of the sort. That's the narrative running in your head, not outside here in reality.

"And as far as your opinion that the whole industry is going this way and soon"

Clarify, are you saying that I said all bikes would have assist, or that bikes equipped with assist would become commonplace? Big difference, please tell me what you think I said.

And the irony that the bulk of your comment is you pissing on people who might choose Ebikes. Literally. Dude, you seem utterly disconnected from reality. Here, here's a choice bit you just typed: "It makes me cringe, and I don't know how people say those things without feeling embarrassed"

More irony is you appointing yourself the arbiter of what constitutes real mountain biking. Maybe you actually gave yourself a big hint when you typed "...I can't understand why so many people can't see it." Key words "so many people". Do some ruminating on that. Trust me, you're onto something there.

Good luck!
  • 3 3
 @Chuckolicious: You said "My one an only issue is with people being exclusionary, dehumanizing, and tribal savages. I'm only intolerant of intolerance" among other similar things in response to myself and others not agreeing that e-mtbs should be allowed on all trails without exclusion, so no I don't believe I'm imagining some narrative here, and yes you did say things that heavily imply you think that using e-mtbs on mtb trails is everyone's right.

Yes I do have an opinion about what is considered mountain biking, which is that the bike is human powered (for all those without some disability or other special exception). You also have an opinion regarding this, do you not? You have just chosen to draw your line at a different place than me, which in your opinion makes me exclusionary and intolerant, but your opinion is fair? Where do you draw the line? Is your line at class 1 e-mtbs or class 2 or somewhere else? Or do you really think that everyone should get to decide their own definition of "real mountain biking" and for anyone else to disagree makes them intolerant? If this is the case then it's fine for someone to decide that riding their 250cc dirtbike on the mtb trails is considered "real mountain biking" right? And for you to disagree would make you intolerant? After all, a 250cc dirtbike won't go down the trails by itself, it requires quite a bit of human powered input to steer, balance, lean, etc. So unless you're willing to say that the trails should be open to any vehicle that anyone considers in their own opinion a mountain bike, then I guess you have also appointed yourself an arbiter of what constitutes real mountain biking.

You have clearly misinterpreted "so many people" to mean a majority or at least a significant portion of the population, which is not the meaning in this case. For example, I also can't believe so many people are racist. Do I think the majority of people are racist? No I don't. But I see enough racism to believe many are, and I can't believe how many that is. Your last point clearly insinuates that I should consider that because "so many people" have this thought, that it must be right and I must be wrong, but that is terrible logic on it's own. Do you think that because so many people are racist that there might be some logic to that? Or is it possible that many people could be so concerned with only their own selfish view of the world that they believe in something without much or any logic behind it.

I personally think that mountain biking on mtb and shared mtb/hiking trails should be limited to human only powered bikes (for all those without some disability or other special exception), and that opinion is not based on my own selfish wants but based on what I think is generally best for all who use those trails and the parks that many of them are within.
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 @robw515: Oh my, we got a live one. So you totally missed all the places I actually typed things that support the idea that Ebikes are indeed a new "paradigm", involve growing pains, and who's impact should absolutely be considered in order to move forward in an adult and productive fashion. You're literally like the robots in Westworld when shown something out of their context: "Doesn't look like anything to me" when looking at the very words I have typed. f*cking stunning, I gotta tell ya.
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 @robw515: @vinnylow

Hey Guys - so Vince you're 36, Rob? I turn 60 this summer. Started on a ridged 26" in 1986 at 25 years old. That's coming on 34 years on MTB bikes as a non pro enthusiast.
I rode that bike for 8 years, 5 in Ontario and 3 in California. Very different terrains. The bike was a Miele of the era. Triple ring, V brakes, no suspension etc.

Suspension on bikes was starting to come when I moved to Cali. My thought in Ontario of the XC style flow trails was man, who needs suspension? And I was racing Motocross in Canada. I love anything on two wheels.

Once I started riding in CA I found out why Cali was the place mtb suspension development was taking place. The downs after the long steep climbs beat the crap out you. We rode them though, without pads too.
In 1994 I bought what I thought was the best full suspension bike for the masses - a GT RTS-3. $1200. Look it up and marvel at the specs.
I still own it and occasionally ride it...a really good way to get perspective of what MTB bikes have become.
I own multiple bikes now. DH, long travel enduro, and yes - an emtb. Road bikes too. And an XC Lefty.

I'm lucky to have sons who ride. On trails and Bike Parks where emtb is legal and the eeb is appropriate, I ride it and love it. On the hard pack of Socal I don't believe anyone can tell when an ebike rode a trail or a 17 year old ripper just shralped a berm. I ride uphill at my non e group pace and down at my pace. The up pace is way more than I can do on my normally aspirated enduro. The riders are fast, young teens and twenty somethings. They rip. Really fun to watch them have so much fun. And Socal is an awesome place to ride.

My 2018 Levo has 32/10-42 gearing. On the steep grades we climb, in eco, (what I use when I ride the bike), I still work at getting to the top. My HR is a safe 80% of max. I sometimes turn the motor off to climb if I feel strong and the grade is not a granny gear climb. No wheel spin. I get a work out, no question. The beauty of e is the ability to control the work out. You can still mash on a climb if you want.

I ski, play hockey once a week - with some ex pros I'll add...yup, quite a hockey scene in LA. I played with Travis Greene as a Teammate....Vince may know who he is.

So I'm in decent shape but not Johnny O'mara (who's a machine) shape and my age ish.

If I get to the top of a long, steep climb in eco with tall gearing by 30T /10-52 standards - have I earned my turns? By your standards I have not. By my standards I have.

Maybe all riders should be required to ride a no suspension period bike from the beginning era of MTB for 2 years, 25% of the time I spent riding that style of bike - to earn their turns. 160mm, droppers, discs, 64 degree HTA's, 10/52 cassettes, tubeless, 29, mullet, these are awesome bikes. Are they earned?

If you pledge to ride a vintage no suspension 26" bike for two years and nothing else on the trails or DH parks you ride, I will get one to you. They are available on PB. After two years send it back. You can ride with all your buddies but only on the vintage bike. Only one vintage bike for all styles of riding. Like I did. With tubes.

Will you be able to keep up with your buds? Will they wait for you? Hitting A-Line? Will you have fun? Nothing about trail erosion, or crowds, or sacred riding spots, or rider etiquette, or rider ability. It's an equipment related rite of passage to earn your turns.

Preposterous idea? As Preposterous as you telling me to earn my turns on a bike you deem appropriate.

@Chuckolicious may have some input to the vintage scene...
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 @GeneralGroovus: Ha! Nice write up, we're way closer to each other than to these 30-somethings. Like I've already said, those old days sucked ass, in retrospect. Would never ever ever go back. But they'll never understand why I (seems you too) bristle at their exclusionary behavior, so conscripting them into riding my 1989 stock Stumpjumper for a couple years would be an awesome way to give them some perspective. Sad they just can't engage a modicum of empathy, trust in the wisdom of people who've been around a few more decades than them, and move through life with way less conflict. But who am I kidding? Just never gonna happen. I'll hit you up when I can finally come back out to LA to ride. Last time was almost exactly a year ago and I was able to demo the then just release SL out of Cynergy and a big Malibu area ride. Thing was nuts!
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 @GeneralGroovus: It sounds like you ride your e-mtb much more conservatively and much more like a standard bicycle than the average user, at least from what I've seen in my area. If all e-mtb users rode like you there would probably be much less hate towards them, but sadly that's not the truth. Most in my area appear to have the thing on maximum assistance and are flying around the trails. Even the lighter weight 250w bikes usually offer 3-4x power assistance in the highest modes which means the guy only generating 80w of power is actually riding at 320w at 3x power assistance, which is approaching Nino Schurter on race day levels. The in-shape guy making 250w is now actually riding at 500w, levels only Superman could do. So the trails are slowly becoming full of riders who are riding at world cup XC race power at a minimum and superhuman power at a maximum, and this is tearing up the trails and angering the hikers in the area to push to ban all bikes from the trails because of these e-mtb riders. If the only people using e-mtbs were 60 year olds just getting there power back on par to there 25 year old self, then this wouldn't be the case, but I think you are in the small minority of e-mtb riders.

I started seriously mountain biking on a late 90s schwinn frontier, an all steel rigid 26" bike with center pull rim brakes and a 3x8 drivetrain; I was a bit younger than 25 back then. On that bike is where I learned most of the technical abilities I have today. After years of riding that bike, and about 10 replacement single wall rear rims, I upgraded it with a rockshox indy 80mm fork and nicer double wall rims, and man I felt like a machine after that. I still have a 26" rigid in my collection today, albeit a much more modern aluminum frame/carbon fork bike, but I still take it out 1-2x a year which is enough of a beating on my wrists for the whole year. So no I don't need a lesson from you in earning my turns.

And to your question is someone actually "earning their turns" on a modern geometry 160mm travel 29er bike with a dropper and 52t cassette etc. etc.? My answer would be yes, because as I stated previously, all that technology only improves the efficiency of the rider's output, it doesn't add to it, so every watt that went into pushing that bike around the trail came from the rider and nowhere else. This means those amazing new bikes are still human powered machines, i.e. they are bicycles, not motorized bikes/mopeds/motorcycles or whatever people want to call them.
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 @Chuckolicious: Right on - Let's ride!
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 @robw515: Very nice! Glad you enjoy riding bikes. You may never own an emtb, but in time all will be revealed.
40 ain't 60 for mere mortals :-)
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 @robw515: lol, 60 ain't 40...must be getting old...
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 @GeneralGroovus: I am 36, yes. I have about 20 years in this industry so I have witnessed the progression of technology you speak up first hand, and there has been some incredible advancements since I began riding. I started on a Norco Beretta (Google that beauty) and rode other hard-tails for years, mostly because I couldn’t afford full-suspension but also because I lived in a place where mountains were non-existent so the hardtail made more sense at the time. Your suggestion for me to go pick-up a Norco Beretta or something similar to prove that an E-bike has its benefits might be lost on me as I’ve been there! Perhaps someone younger than me who wasn’t apart of the evolution of MTB would benefit from this experiment.

I understand your point. There have been many advancements in MTB tech over there years that have allowed us to ride further and longer, but I would argue that the sum of them all wouldn’t come close to the development of adding a motor. Let’s say my choice is my current bike (2018 Patrol) or my Berretta with a motor, it’s a tough call but if we’re strictly speaking longevity of the ride the motor would win. If we’re talking the ability to ride down a Black-diamond descent, well probably not. Then again, I wouldn’t have been taking my Beretta over to the North Shore if that was my goal, we’re talking two different disciplines of biking again, similar to my discussion with @hmstuna.

To ol’ Chuck’s point, I can empathize, my dad is near the same age as you guys (63) and I’d love for him to get be able to keep up with me and perhaps an e-bike might be the solution. I certainly agree that if an e-bike can allow someone to still enjoy the sport into their golden years then hell yeah that’s a good thing! When I see someone with grey-hair ripping down a trail (regardless of what they’re riding) I think to myself “damn, get after it!” because I know that’ll be me some day. Unfortunately, the E-bike isn’t limited to just older people who still want to enjoy the sport; and as more people get their hands on these things the more common they become on the trails, the drawbacks of which have already been discussed here.

Now, I should probably clear the air, some of my posts here were knee-jerk reactions and uncalled for, but these concerns are shared amongst the majority of people I ride with. This is why this is such a heated topic, people are already seeing the implications of the E-bikes. Our governments and municipalities need to spend some time thinking about the importance of the E-bike argument especially as their prolificacy increases.

We’ll see what shakes out, but as I mentioned before, I don’t think slapping a label on the E-bike essentially classing it the same and a traditional bike is the answer, there’s a lot more to it than that and these forums certainly show-case that.
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 @vinnylow: Hey, now look at that, maybe a leopard can change its spots after all. Glad you seem to have adopted my stance that EMTBs should be looked at in a smart fashion in order to best avoid or mitigate the inevitable growing pains. Good on ya! Leave the philosophy behind and get with the practical.

But still, you'd do well to put that handwringing in check. The crescendo of EMTB hate was already reached two years ago. The claims that hoards of out-of-shape, inexperienced, uncivilized and unwashed hoi polloi were going to inundate the trails, leaving them rutted and blown out disasters, and resulting in all bikes being banned. Not one single instance of the later, and not one actual study of any sort showing the former. In fact, some minor studies showing no measurable trail impact (Lake Tahoe area). If I started seeing either of those actually, empirically happening, I'd be far more cautious about them. Really, that's why I love to link to that '85 skiers vs snowboarder video. Same claims: dangerous, destroy the trails, uncivilized, etc. Bunch of hysterical ninnies that will be made fun of on there internet long after they're dead. You don't want to be one of those, do you? A walking anachronism?

And let's please put this to bed: a modern enduro or all mountain rig does far more damage to trails than and old school rigid or even front suspension. Heavier & faster, by a large margin. Weight and speed are the two gorillas when it comes to trail wear. And a modern rig just lets you get in way more miles than those horrible old school rigs. So now you add the distance travelled issue. Oh wait, because it's easier to get to the top on a modern rig, and way more fun on the downs, a ton more new people have gotten them and now crowd the trails. See how those three arguments are being claimed against E-bikes? It's really much ado about so far nothing empirically proven.

Will there be asshats who hack their rigs to go faster? Yup. Will they brick their batteries in short order and then learn a hard lesson? Yup. Will there be asshats riding EMTBs that are just asshats in myriad ways? Yup. If I had a nickle, or IPO share of Tesla, for every asshat on a regular rig I've encountered over my years, would I be Elon's sugardaddy? Yup.

OK, I'm exhausted now. Need to save energy to do my usual Alp Du Zwift winter routine so I'm not an anchor for my west coast buddies in the spring. Successfully vaccinated, of course.
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 @vinnylow: All good! Yes growing pains. Pretty lucky to have 1st world problems to natter about.
I planning on getting the ultra cheap 70+ ski pass when I get there and will be on bikes till I can't. e will be what keeps me going and makes me a better, fitter rider as I age. Hopefully not the old due that suffers a heart attack on one climb too many.

Yes, plenty of CAT 1 old guy super heroes out there...I'm just not one of them. And most super fit old guys were never on a UCI leader board - they work at it and have my respect though. They should just chill a bit and have a plate of Perspective a la Ratatouille
Hey, If your dad can ride and can handle the trails you ride, get him one. It's a game changer.

I was shuttling the "secret" famous DH run in Laguna Beach two weekends ago on the DH much fun. The GoPro footage of that run like any POV footage does not show how steep the two lower section drops sections are. We shuttle three well known runs down here. e won't do as there is no up line. Getting a DH bike 4 years ago was another revelation. Big smiles and learned how much fitness is involved with riding DH. More respect for the DH guys.
We are very lucky to have so many options within the cycling community. e is here though. For me e is a huge positive.

Ride On!
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 @Chuckolicious: I like it. I'm with you. I think most emtb anger comes from guys getting passed. Man, the trails in our local parks after a race weekend are decimated. Not an eeb in site. We'll get there. Glad to have connected with Rob, Vince and you. See you in Cali!

PS I'm still on Skis...the bams are on Boards lol...that's quite a funny video.

PPS yes, like all things out's people that make the difference. And there are always more good than bad!
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 I don't care!
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 Simple and clear: Motor + Bike = NOT A MOTORBIKE.
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 Yep. It is a moped.
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 @cberrya6e: Ahh, so mopeds aren't motorbikes. I see. ...but they are motorcycles (wikipedia).
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 what's the point of e-MTB "races" anyway? figuring out who can tweak their motor efficiency the best?
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 What's the point of F1, Indy Car, NASCAR, WEC, WRC, etc.?
  • 1 0
 @f00bar: I'm not sure what you mean. But if you are arguing that it is potentially a lesser form of racing due to a motor being involved, I would be interested in you elaborating on that. Every form of racing is about efficiency.
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