Patent Round-Up: Fox's Self-Adjusting Suspension, Specialized's Cable-Routing Headset & Shimano's Slimline Brakes

May 10, 2023
by Seb Stott  
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Digging through patent documents can sometimes offer hints at what we might be riding in a few years' time. Many of the weird and wonderful designs don't see the light of day, but even then it's interesting to see what ideas the bike industry's brains are working on. Here are a few that we've spotted lately from Fox, Specialized and Shimano.




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The system could include various sensors, here depicted as 5, 5b and 5c

Fox suspension adjuster

Fox seems to be working hard towards expanding the scope and capability of their electronic suspension offerings. Here are two patents they've published recently.

A patent was published in their name in April called "Methods and apparatus for suspension adjustment". To boil it right down, it covers a broad concept of using various sensors to determine how a bicycle's (or other vehicle's) suspension is performing, feeding those data into an algorithm and then outputting suggestions to a user interface (which could be a display or an app) so the user can make the appropriate adjustment. and the system could make damping adjustments for you, including "throttling" a valve between open and closed on the fly, depending on the roughness of the terrain the sensors detect.

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A possible shock layout includes a sensor (5b), and an electronically-controlled compression valve, which could be operated via an algorithm taking information from multiple sensors.

These sensors could include many things. The patent says "[the] measured characteristics may include at least one of position, velocity, acceleration, stroke, sag, compression, rebound, pressure and temperature of the vehicle suspension." A pedal sensor is also mentioned.

As usual, the patent is written in such a way as to keep Fox's options as open as possible, so it's not clear exactly what any future system would be measuring or what it would do with the information. But one application mentioned in the patent is simply measuring sag and suggesting an appropriate spring rate and rebound setting. That may sound disappointingly basic, but for many riders that alone could be a huge benefit. On the other hand, it could be much more advanced, perhaps including on-the-fly, adjustments to damping settings.




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The wireless system may include sensors on the fork and swingarm (35r & 35 f), a remote control (93), a mobile device/smartphone (95) and a suspension controller (39).

Fox wireless active suspension system


Last August we got the scoop on some prototype electronic suspension from Fox which they were testing with Jesse Melamed. In March this year, they published a patent that might shed more light on where they're hoping to go with this tech.

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Fox suspension. Photo by Stefan Licko
The wireless sensors depicted in the patent look a lot like the ones we saw back in August.

Like the system we saw in real life, it includes wireless sensors mounted on the brake mounts of the fork and swingarm; a handlebar-mounted remote to control the modes and a suspension controller to control the shock (and/or fork) damping, firming it up or softening it depending on the terrain.

Those sensors would most likely include accelerometers. The patent specifies that they are to be mounted on the unsprung part of the bike (fork lowers and/or the swingarm), where an accelerometer would need to be to detect bumps. It also claims that after hitting a bump there is about a 15-millisecond window for the suspension to open up before the rider starts to "feel" the impact, and when we saw Fox's prototype in real life, they claimed the system could react "within 3 milliseconds". Besides, in the version we saw, only the rear shock was active, and an accelerometer in the fork could tell the shock to open up long before the bump reached it (if you're going at 45 kph, it would take about 100 ms for the rear wheel to pass the same bump that the front wheel hit).

On the other hand, the patent also mentions a sensor that could scan the trail in front of the front wheel and tell the fork and/or shock how to react before the front wheel hits it. There's even talk of a lead vehicle sending signals to the following ones to tell them how to set their suspension. But personally, I think if this type of system does come to market on a mountain bike, it's likely to be simpler than that at first.

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A cutaway of a possible active damper valve design. One or more of the solenoids (475) could push on its respective piston (465) to pressurise fluid in the chamber (407) and therefore set the preload on the conical valve (412) which controls the oil flow through the port (402) - thereby setting the damping firmness.

In terms of how the output of the system's algorithm would affect the damping in the shock, here's how I think it works. The patent shows a possible damper valve with a spring-loaded conical "nipple" which controls the oil flow, and therefore the damping firmness. The spring pushes the cone (412) against the valve port (402), shutting off the oil flow from the compression side of the damper. When the damping oil pressure behind the conical valve is high enough (for example when you hit a bump), the cone is pushed back and the oil is able to flow past from port 402 to 403, allowing the suspension to compress.

The spring can be preloaded via an external adjuster (408 ), which pre-sets the amount of damping pressure required to "crack" open the valve and allow oil flow.

In terms of the active part, to the left of the spring is a fluid-filled chamber (407) and a piston (406). The fluid pressure can be set by one of a number of solenoids (475) which push on a plunger (465), pressurising the fluid. The fluid pressure moves the piston, changing the preload on the spring (415). Presumably, different solenoids (or combinations thereof) could provide different fluid pressure or volume, and so different amounts of preload on spring, and by extension, different damping firmness. In this configuration, the conical valve (412) could also act as a check valve, preventing oil from flowing back from the rebound side (403) to the compression side (402), so all of it has to go via the rebound valving.



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Shimano brake lever & piston

In a patent called "Piston assembly for human-powered vehicle", dated April 2023, Shimano illustrates what could be a new design of brake lever. The patent mostly refers to the design of the piston assembly, which slides through and seals against the master cylinder, forcing oil through the hose to the caliper. The piston assembly may include a resin primary seal that slides easily but seals tightly against the cylinder. This piston assembly is depicted in a lever body which is quite different from Shimano's current offerings.

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Most obviously, the lever body sits flush against the handlebar, and the brake hose connects to the lever body in such a way that it could be run parallel to, or inside, the handlebar. This is something we've seen before. But also, in this case, the piston assembly is driven by a pair of counter-rotating links (numbered 24 and 42 in the drawings above) which in turn drive a connection rod (44), whose path is determined by a pair of cam guides (46), which are shaped to manipulate the leverage ratio between the lever blade and the piston assembly.

In Figure 4, where the brake is applied, the connection rod contacts the cam (42) closer to its pivot point (P2), so there's a greater mechanical advantage over the system and so more braking force than when the brake lever is relaxed (Figure 3). The purpose of this is presumably similar to Shimano's Servo Wave technology, but the architecture is a little different, with the cam mechanism here sitting outboard (further from the handlebar) of the lever blade pivot.

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A reminder of how Shimano's current levers look, with the master cylinder inboard of the lever blade pivot.

So perhaps Shimano has a new lever design on the horizon that sits closer to the bar, with (arguably) neater hose routing and a new design of piston and cam mechanism.



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Specialized's internal-routing steering-limiter headset

Here's one for the through-headset-cable-routing fans out there (both of them). A patent published in March this year by Specialized Bicycle Components shows a headset that combines routing for multiple control lines (brake hoses and gear, dropper cables etc.), alongside a steering limiter to prevent damage to the cables and to the frame. Specialized's recently released Epic uses the design shown here, so this is more of a glimpse into the present rather than the future. Still, it is interesting to see how exactly one would go about patenting a cable routing design.

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168 Comments
  • 482 4
 All the advantages of the hated Knock Block finally combined with all the advantages of hated headset cable routing! "Let the hate flow through you!" -Emperor Palpatine
  • 101 0
 I bet the whole dam thing is made from plastic
  • 6 0
 I laughed
  • 25 0
 @kenoath: plastic bearings with sprues still attached
  • 23 0
 I can feeeeel your anger!
  • 15 2
 I swear companies are just trying to patent random s**t that nobody needs just to say "We did it first".
  • 1 0
 @mior: Ooo maybe they’ll use a hot runner…
  • 54 0
 " Let's do it. Two wrongs make a right." - Specialized lead engineer
  • 2 1
 At least they are doing it on the upper headset, and not like YT's super terrible design where they literally create a gap for dirt to fill, to then the stop pushes the dirt into the bearing.
  • 3 1
 @LucaP: Except that you can't fully turn right (or left) because of the rotation limiter.
  • 11 0
 “ Your feeble non-headset routing are no match for the power of the dark side.”
  • 5 1
 Ehrm, does this qualify as headset routing too? Seems like the cable entry is through the cover over the top bearing, but the cover doesn't spin with the steerer and the hoses and cables won't pass through the upper bearing. It does have a knock-block though. Trek has a SWAT storage, their XC fullies seem to be alike. Isn't it just the same company?
  • 8 0
 @vinay: youve found them out
trekalized
  • 7 0
 Let the hate flow through your headset!
  • 9 0
 @litany: Not YT's fault, you can thank Acros for that crap. Those Acros headsets come on a lot of bikes. Aside from the dirt, ingress they have another terrible flaw: since the bearing race needs to act as the stop, i.e. not rotate, it has to fit much tighter on the steerer. These races are impossible to remove without damage (to the race AND the steerer). The original design used embedded rods to prevent rotation (which probably just meant everything got ruined when the race eventually rotated). They now use a fluted design, i.e. the race is too small for the steerer but has flutes cut in it so it can "stretch". The best part of all of it is IT STILL ROTATES if you hit it hard enough. My Mondraker showed up with the lock stop off center. The "fix", from the mouth of the Mondraker rep, was to bang the bars really hard in the direction you want to rotate.
  • 2 0
 @mior: Back in the day, circa 70's there was a manufacturer of plastic headsets used with nylon bearings primarily used by track racers. Turns out your headset is one place you don't want to save weight.
  • 1 0
 @Danmcdan: you and Moir.....

Damned plastics people. (Former mould tech, turned mould maker here)
  • 3 0
 @gearbo-x: It's a business thing. Patent a new or novel idea without the intention of bringing it to market. Then when a competitor tries it, you can: sue them or license it to them. Or if it proves to be successful, you can run them out of business with a combination of the two. These companies have huge R&D and Legal departments and overhead costs to manufacture things. It makes sense to register Intellectual Property when the idea comes about, and not years later. That way they don't waste capital designing, refining, and setting up to manufacture these things at scale, just to be beaten to market by a competitor.
  • 1 1
 @bikeys: why not just ti? sounds dumb to have plastic. send a drop and no more headset
  • 2 2
 @mior: I've bought chris king headsets, cheapo headsets, had internal routing, external, none of that stuff is of any consequence on the trail. I don't get why there's so much time spent on this when we need these battery powered bikes to make an automatic clutch or something to make shifting dreamy on a gearbox and get rid of the drag.
  • 2 0
 @jesse-effing-edwards: i just meant if you really want a SUPER light headset use ti instead of nylon
  • 10 0
 "You were supposed to destroy Headset Cable Routing, Not Join Them"
  • 2 0
 @bigtuna00: That's freaking nuts. But it still is YT et al's fault for specing that crap on their bikes.
  • 1 0
 I dunno im stuck now that i cant ask chatgpt how to set my suspension up
  • 1 0
 @LucaP: just ask their ambassadors hahahaha
  • 1 1
 What's the problem with the Knock Block?
  • 1 0
 @gearbo-x: Actually!
  • 1 2
 Wow! This is an amazing idea, love me some limitations and internal routing. Way to go specialized, can we all have this?
  • 2 0
 @Appendage: cant do bar spins
  • 2 0
 @kenoath: It propably is! Look allt like Acros‘s one, which is all made of plastic…
  • 1 0
 @gearbo-x: It's worse than that. People need new bikes because bikes die, and the more patented shit they put on new bikes the more they can sell them for.
  • 1 1
 @LucaP: In maths two negatives make a positive....
  • 1 0
 @number-6: Depends on the operation. Stacking negatives doesn't work.
  • 1 0
 next step switch to bushings in the headset
  • 1 0
 @gearbo-x: that is effectively the standard business practice. What is the point of a patent that someone else has registered first?
  • 399 2
 If Specialized could just patent headset cable routing and sue everybody else who's doing it, that would be all our problems solved!
  • 21 5
 This should be the top comment!
  • 6 0
 The headset cable routing stops the minute Spec’s patent is approved. They will sue everybody and this worthless feature ends with Specialized.
  • 22 1
 Dear Specialized, please patent Cable Tourism!
  • 1 0
 Brilliant, You got my vote!
  • 4 0
 This is probably the only Specialized sue I can get behind, please do is ASAP!
  • 164 5
 Am I the only one that has absolutely no interest in electronic suspension?
  • 50 2
 You’re probably not the only one that has no interest in any of these “technologies”. The bike industry is really grasping at straws these days.
  • 31 0
 I for one can’t wait to ride pure electricity.
  • 11 2
 You're not alone. This is just another incremental "improvement" the bike industry is pursuing to get people to buy new stuff. Most people can't utilize the full capabilities of their current bikes. Yeah, electronic suspension might provide some small benefit to a serious racer, but a driver mod will still be the best option for 99% of people.
  • 12 0
 I mean, if it can scan the trail ahead and setup before you actually get to that bit, it would be extremely impressive
  • 8 1
 I used to feel the same way until I rode in a Polaris Rzr with the Fox Live Valve system. It’s pretty amazing.
  • 10 1
 In motor sports, electronic suspension is significantly more performant.

In mountain biking, since bikes are human powered (!!!!) and weight is critical, what is holding suspension performance back isn't electronically reactive damping, its stiffness, stiction, binding under load, spring curves, durability, service intervals, etc. Suspension damping is in a pretty good spot right now for bikes, and from what I can tell this is the only thing that electronics can help with.
  • 6 1
 I don't want it to be actively changing its damping characteristics for me, but I'd take an electronic lockout on my XC bike. Just a little toggle that's all I want. On, off.
  • 3 0
 @Austin014: a little micro swich with the same profile as your bars like that one custom blip shifter that guy made would be sick. no clutter, fits between grip and dropper lever
  • 5 5
 Once the technology becomes dialed in after a few generations, you’ll look back on the bikes of today as being basic and inferior. Changes do happen incrementally, but over enough time these developments are drastic, otherwise we'd still be riding the Penny Farthing.
  • 3 0
 If we are going to bring electronics to our bike suspension, it needs to do a specific, predicable, single dimension action. It needs to not cost $2,000, and it needs to be utterly automatic. And again not cost $2000 haha.

My idea that I'd love to make is a simple electronic lockout thats retrofitable to any rear shock that can accept a remote cable lockout. The innovation/difference is that it just listens to your ANT+ signal from your power meter and at a preconfigured wattage threshold locks/unlocks your rear shock. Thats it. Thats all it does, except MAYBE have an accelerometer that can also detect grade, such that you could configure it to never lock out on descents. If the price could be kept under $300 this would be a winner in my book.
  • 2 2
 Having driven cars with and without electronically controlled dampers, you may not the the only one, but you're wrong Smile Done well (I know that's a big caveat) it will be game changing.
  • 7 1
 ...or electronic shifting or electric motors?

No, you're not the only one. Keep those the batteries off my bike.
  • 18 0
 "I'm being held back by my suspension. I need electronic chassis stability control. Why no, I've never serviced my fork and I'm the third owner. Why do you ask?"
  • 8 0
 Same. Instead of this electronic buffoonery, can I get just get a fork and shock that are decently easy to re-shim vs having to replace half the guts with aftermarket shit?

Mani-poo and Ohlins have figured this out but they get no OEM.
  • 3 0
 @powaymatt: The LiveValve on the UTV makes sense because of the body roll/lean when you go through a corner. You want suspension plush through the whoops & rocks, but you don't want machine to tip to the outside while turning. I don't think you get the same benefit from a 2 wheeled vehicle.
  • 2 0
 @motts: I could be argued for fork dive/chassis stability management, but like you said only fore/aft, which in mountain biking is only braking and pedaling. The issue is that a bicycle is different from every motorized vehicle as that the rider weighs more (significantly more) than the vehicle, and therefore the center of mass can be moved around. A UTV can't lean left, right, back, and forth. A bike can, sharply reducing the need for anti-fork-dive electronics. As for acceleration, there is a stronger case for electronic pedal bob management, but again since bikes use a chain instead of an axle, drivetrain torque can be used to help counteract acceleration squat.
  • 3 0
 @hamncheez: Yeah, I could see electronic suspension helping prevent fork dive. But like I said above, most people would be better off spending their money on rider improvements than fancier equipment.
  • 1 1
 @motts: one kid at my race gets crazy benefits from flight attendant on the flat straightaway
  • 4 0
 @motts: ALSO, a high end side-by-side that would justify electronic suspension control typically has 20 inches + of suspension travel, compared to 5-8" on most mountain bikes (the 8 inches being generous (thats what she said))
  • 1 0
 I am not personally interested in e-suspension. But considering you can find bikes with motors on the shifters, motors on the suspension, motors on the dropper post, and motors on the crank with automatic shifting with said motors, plenty of people seem interest in the tech. On the one side, I kinda get it. The AXS on my XC bike is pretty good, and I belt a live valve on that bike would be great too. On the other hand, that is the bike I ride the absolute least, and I prefer to keep it simple on the bikes I do ride.
  • 3 0
 Mechanical failure may be a "doable" trail-side fix...electronic failure...I highly doubt would be an easy trailside fix....it's just one more thing that could go wrong.
  • 1 0
 I want whatever it is that Loic Bruni has been running as his bike appears to magically float through the rough stuff. Some electric Ohlins magic.
  • 5 0
 @stevemokan: im sure grasping at straws is covered under a specialized patent
  • 2 0
 @hamncheez : Agreed, the key part for me is that gear needs to be predictable. You're not helping anyone if you suddenly give them a push in the back. If your bike is going to perform differently because a setting has changed, you need to intuitively know that up front. And to develop that intuition takes time and experience. Pro riders who spend a lot of time on their bikes can learn to adapt to various settings. I ride my mountainbike three or four times a week and know for one that I'd be horrible adapting to these sudden changes. If my suspension acts different from what I expect it would, I'll probably just exit the corners in the wrong spot. But fair enough, that's just me. I can't even adapt to automatic transmission in a car and I realize there are loads of people who get by just fine.
  • 1 0
 I think electronics to actually "controll" your suspension is something nobody really needs. Except a few people who gain the elusive time advantage over their competition. Meaning high level racers. If we look into help with setup, that would be beneficial for a huge number of people and their overall experience of riding a mountain bike. Most people are simply to lazy (or don't know better), so their setup is shit. They should be on simple suspension products, but need the bling of a factory fork which is just so much more complex to setup. For all those people, something helpful and maybe even playful to get them tinkering with their suspension would be great. Think about personal a Jordi for you smartphone. I'd at least be curious to test it out.
  • 1 0
 @Xaelber93: Aren't these phone applications already available? I thought Cane Creek has something for their DB shocks, maybe also for their other ones. Not sure whether the pros typically have more dials to play with. I thought that they often get a custom valving with less adjustability afterwards. A wide range of adjustment is great to make a product that can be sold to everyone, but I can imagine a custom valving will always be better for a particular rider.

That said, I'm not sure whether people don't really understand the adjustment. It is more that they might not want to go through the whole process of finding the perfect setup when they know they'll gain more on working on their skill and fitness and will have more fun just riding their bike and don't agonize about the dials. I for one read through those manuals and understand that you're supposed to modify one of those dials at a time and realize loads of your test runs are going to be shit. I set sag to about where I want it to be, set rebound as fast as possible without losing control and just ride it like that. I don't like the low speed compression and just add more high speed compression when I use too much travel. Call my setup shit, I know I'll always gain more working on my riding skill than on my dial twisting skills.
  • 1 0
 Yeah how about suspension that works well out of the box, and doesnt require as much love to keep it that way
  • 1 0
 @powaymatt: You should try a Polaris with a proper suspension then ;-) We had to race our RZR Pro Ultimate for a few races with the Live Valve last year and it was terrible. Even compared to some mid-range 'standard' shocks.
It is ok for Sunday rides, but it is not anywhere good enough for serious terrain and racing.

Also, don't get me started on all of those batteries that will need to be re-charged and then contribute to pollution, and most of those will be sold to people who could ride an old RST and it wouldn't make them any slower... Makes me quite angry seeing how many roadies and MTBers are such hypocrites - so much hate towards cars and motor vehicles - "because they pollute!! Climate change!! yada yada..." and then they buy all of those battery powered components that never needed any batteries and in some cases (electronic derailleurs) it is even a downgrade compared to a non-electronic counterpart.
  • 1 0
 I really can't grasp why they are pushing so hard at the development of this kind of system for BICYCLES. Any other thing that can generate it's own enery, or at least has a lot of battery to feed the system, it kind of makes sense. Once the sytem requires a battery, for a bike, I'm out. Maybe the system is tested on bikes because of the absolute bonkers of reaction time needed, and being lightweight while doing it. Maybe it's tested only on competition, where it makes sense. It might be available to purchase, costing a lot and using only proprietary suspension, but it'll never recover it's money in time and research development. Probably thats why Suntour is not boasting around or selling their tailored electronic suspension system.
  • 1 0
 @agrohardtail: There was the Bose Electromagnetic suspension that was never implemented in any other vehicle in the world. Not even super luxury ones.
  • 1 0
 @hamncheez: Exactly. a rider would benefit from a geometry change in the bike instead of active suspension. Even more when there is only 100mm of travel.
  • 1 0
 @Notmeatall: ""I really can't grasp why they are pushing so hard""

look at the MSRP of Flight attendant. Is it really that hard to figure out?
  • 1 0
 Look at it this way. You can already buy the stuff that allows you to ride the way you want to ride. The top level brands are trying really hard to find and sell the next best thing but there are so many other brands now making and selling what you need at a lower pricepoint. Isn't that great? I'm actually really happy that I already riding the bike I always wanted. I might invest in a really good suspension fork someday (I'm on a hardtail) but there is nothing I want badly. I don't know about you but I personally love the situation I'm in. Not sure whether I should be hoarding 26" tires at some point but honestly I trust there will continue to be brands (Schwalbe, Stans, DT-Swiss etc) who develop and manufacture their stuff in this size. I'm good. Come chill on the couch with me and laugh at the freakshow of the bleeding edge of technological progress.
  • 2 0
 @motts: I’m more of a step on the pedal and go fast….not really weighing in on the cornering argument, but you’re absolutely correct if I was. I have a different view on this one. One car in my group of UTV’s has the shocks that Fox built out to let Polaris test as option “B.” The difference in a vehicle w/Live Valve vs a vehicle w/the best non-Live Valve Fox shock built has built, is really surprising. There are definitely different variables in a vehicle vs a bike, but the technology is making things “better.”
  • 1 0
 @kuejku: where are you racing?
  • 2 0
 @powaymatt: Various Baja races here in Europe - Baja Poland, Hungary, Romania, Baja Europe (hopefully it will come back this year...) etc.

Even the Polaris team here does not use Live Valve shocks on their RZRs for racing and I have not seen any serious team/privateer using them, and I am talking about guys who also race huge rallies like the Dakar... and win Smile . We found them very inconsistent and unpredictable at times. They're good enough if you want to just enjoy the ride and not bother with setting up your suspension (or you don't know how to set it up), but they have serious downsides when you start pushing it, and correctly set-up and valved 'traditional' shocks behave way better in those racing conditions.
  • 80 1
 If you look carefully at the drawing, you'll see this is electronic shock control not intended for new bikes, but to bring 2002 Stumpjumpers up to date.
  • 15 0
 Either that, or they’re going all-in offering aftermarket support for Walmart full suspension bikes
  • 8 0
 I'm looking forward to riding with a 100mm stem again. Always being on the verge of going OTB really gets the adrenaline pumping...
  • 1 0
 Thought the same thing, looks like something from the late 1990s.
  • 55 2
 It's really amazing how much effort and engineering is put into making bikes worse.
  • 26 1
 Bike companies-we quit using so much cardboard and plastic in our packaging because we care about the earth. Bike companies-we have made everything electronic so the cobalt and lithium mining companies can prosper.
  • 3 1
 Whats up? You just find out about greenwashing or something?
  • 4 0
 @RonSauce: no, but pointing it out at opportunities like this seems appropriate.
  • 25 1
 There's no chance this redesign could magically fix Shimanos wandering bite point
  • 35 0
 If you read the patent, that's actually the point of the secondary plunger (#54 on the diagram). At least in the patent, it's called a "randomizer." It ensures that the lever pull is different every time, because a consistent brake is a boring brake.
  • 12 0
 ^This. Shimano, if you are listening, your mission is simple: MTBers don't want internal handlebar routing, & couldn't care less whether pistons are inboard, outboard, or overboard: there is only one thing your engineers need to do - make the wandering bite point go away! Riders can put bigger rotors on Codes to make up for their lack of power, but we can't re-engineer your lever internals for you!
  • 8 0
 There's always talk about it being the fluid and how you can fix it with some other brand but there is absolutely zero wander on my Ultegra hydro levers. Maybe just try putting a pair of them on sideways?
  • 15 1
 The only way to fix the wandering bite point is to swap out the entire assembly to Dominion. Coincidentally, its also how you fix SRAM brakes.
  • 1 0
 @Murder-One: I remember seeing it mentioned online that someone put they're mineral oil in the fridge for the night before bleeding
  • 1 0
 @Murder-One: I highly doubt it's the fluid. It's probably the combination of the redesigned lever (and maybe "new" internals) and the new 4 pot caliper design that SLX up to XTR share.

there wasn't really much noise about the old XT/Saint 4 pistons with regards to the wandering bite point and the new 2 piston SLX/XT/XTR don't really suffer from it that much (they still do but not as bad as the 4 piston caliper ones)

Currently on the M7100 SLX 4 piston and its bad once the brakes get up to temp. I might try out swapping the hoses to BH59 (the old one) and see if that'll help with it. If worse comes to worse I'll just jump on the TRP train with everyone
  • 3 1
 @Murder-One: I've also never had this problem on any of my shimano brakes.
  • 1 0
 That’s an easy fix-remove the useless bite point adjustment.
  • 2 0
 @Swangarten: Dominions get leaky etc. after a season like everybody else’s brakes. They’re good, but not the second coming of Christ. Hopes come closest to a legitimately durable brake.
  • 1 0
 @loloTHUNDAH: You can also try the Shigura bandwagon before the TRP train
  • 1 1
 @wyorider: None of mine have ever leaked in the 3 years I've been on them. I've not heard or seen any sort of widespread issues like you constantly hear with SRAM and Shimano. Nothing is perfect, including religious based imaginary friends, but the Dominion is as close as it gets at the moment
  • 3 0
 @loloTHUNDAH: The theory I read, which seemed to make sense, is that is indeed in the design of the brake, but it can be circumvented by using a mineral oil with a lower viscosity. The jest of it was that there is a hole in the system that is too small so not enough fluid flows through it sometimes and the pads don't retract the same distance every time. Thinner oil can flow faster through this small hole and it solves the problem.
Putoline apparently makes a 2.5W damper oil that works very well as brake fluid. Intend uses this in their new brake too.
  • 2 3
 I own 3 Shimano sets, two XT and one - don't remember which one... all the current models. Never experienced "famous" bite point issue
  • 2 0
 @Swangarten: I actually really like Dominions, but they don’t seem better than Codes. SRAM has figured out how to make at least one good brake, Shimano won’t fix the actual problem (bite point) common on a lot of their brakes AND won’t offer seal kits.
  • 2 1
 @wyorider: Preach! And while we're giving credit where it's due: chalk up one more for SRAM designing a contact point adjustment that actually works. The stupid little screw that does nothing on XTR brakes on my little bike eats my brain. I've had sticky piston issues w/ both Shimano and SRAM, but at least SRAM lets you buy fresh seals and pistons to keep their calipers going: w/ Shimano, one sticky piston = caliper in the bin. I'm underwhelmed enough with both Shimano and SRAM to want to give TRP or Hayes a try, but my secret fear is that the only "silver bullet" solution is taking out a second mortgage to buy Trickstuff for all the bikes.
  • 15 0
 More cable tourists. Go home. I just ditched my XT brakes for some Hayes Dominions. Sorry Shimano, there is no way I'm going back to those brakes.
  • 2 0
 Same! I really liked my XT's but these are a whole other level Smile
  • 3 0
 I've had Shimanos on pretty much all my bikes in the last 15 years. Put TRPs on my current bike. Will never go back to Shimano.
  • 4 0
 Strangely enough, just acquired a bike w/ Hayes Dominions; wow. In our family fleet we have XT's (x2); Code RSCs (x2), and MT7s (x1) and TRP (x1); the Dominions blow all of them away, even the Codes...!
  • 1 0
 And? And? And? Power, feel, consistency?
  • 2 0
 @eric32-20: codes are probably the worst brakeset that you mention, the bar is not really high... Bought TRP DH-R and these have been game changer so far, still curious about Dominions tho
  • 1 0
 @thebradjohns: which TRPs?
  • 2 0
 @eh-steve: Quadiem. Got a really good deal on them so thought why not try them. Swapped out the stock resin pads for Shimano metal pads. Cant fault them. The DHR Evo are supposedly even better.
  • 2 0
 I've gone TRP and super happy about it.
  • 1 0
 Okay, but how do they preform?
Are they more like Shimano that I like, or more like SRAM that I don't like?
  • 2 0
 @eric32-20: Codes are aweful.

But I've readin some Aston site about the various brakes he tests, the dominions seems to be a taiwanese "copy" of the diretissimas, as they work as good as those.

He also praises the new hope t4e4 with steel braided hoses, more than dominions.
  • 3 0
 @pakleni: Not sure about Dominions but TRPs have a really progressive lever feel and heaps of power. Very consistent and easy to control your braking force.
  • 1 0
 @thebradjohns: Which TRP's though? I hear all these rave reviews of TRP brakes but never which models they are happy with. E.g. slate t4 are easy to come by locally but I'm assuming I'd be much happier with some Cura 2 than the T4.
  • 10 0
 Dear bike companies. These bikes are meant to be ridden, even occasionally crashed. Stuff gets wrecked, bars get spun, dropper cables need easy setup. This internal/headset/through the handlebar BS is not asked for, not appreciated and unlike what your focus group of non-cyclists says - NOBODY WANTS THIS INTERNAL GARBAGE. And to touch on the electronic suspension stuff: bike companies literally can't give that $h17 away. Quit wasting efforts on this stuff you wish could justify the excessive pseudo engineering and concentrate on making bikes actually better.
  • 13 0
 YOU WILL NEVER DO A BARSPIN OR X-UP AND YOU WILL BE HAPPY
  • 13 0
 Dad? Is that you?
  • 4 0
 Yeah, *that’s* why I’m not doing barspins and x-ups.
  • 8 0
 These new levers means we are one step towards complete integration. Bring it on (HIHR) Handlebar Internal Housing Routing. That's what the people want, that's what the people need! Well most people..... lots of people... few people... Ok, a couple crazy lunatics.
  • 6 0
 @dangerholm is the target market. it would look clean as hell, but i dont want to spend 40 minutes changing a goopy cable housing or old brake hose
  • 1 0
 @mior: to be honest I’m one of the crazy lunatics that would buy in this trend. I love the cleanliness of no cables and hoses and stuff faffing around. As long it maintains it’s function to a degree. I don’t mind the extra time spend in maintenance but if internal housing means crappy braking that would be a dealbraker.
  • 2 2
 Broped users want that. So their machine looks sleek.
  • 8 0
 It's a complete mystery to me how stuff like that smart suspension system is somehow found desirable… I mean, you lot actually WANT your future bikes to be even more complicated and less affordable?
Are you not having fun on your bikes now?
You are actually okay with needing professional mechanics to service your bike, and to be dependant on software updates and all that? Weird.
Give me my old, simple bike any day of the week.
  • 7 0
 Shimano figured out how to monopolize your choice of shifter and dropper post levers by covering your whole bar like an invasive weed.
  • 9 0
 Wow!! All the shit I don't need
  • 1 0
 Indeed!
  • 8 1
 Handlebar internal routed brake lines. Double-U Tee Eff. I'm going to start skateboarding.
  • 10 0
 You should get one of those fancy electronic skateboards with the integrated throttle control.
  • 1 4
 Ha ha ha !
  • 1 0
 ...Sk8 or Die \m/
  • 8 0
 SHAME, Specialized. SHAME.
  • 9 1
 As if we needed another reason to dislike Specialized lol
  • 12 0
 why? if they patent it, nobody else will be doing it Wink
  • 3 0
 “On the other hand, the patent also mentions a sensor that could scan the trail in front of the front wheel and tell the fork and/or shock how to react before the front wheel hits it.” This doesn’t sound like a smart design, what if I decide to jump said obstacle that the shock scanned ahead of me, or go around it, manual it, stomp it…how would it know what I want to do? Is there a patent for a brain implant that sends my thoughts to my bikes suspension? Might as well send it to my drivetrain too.
  • 4 0
 Who decides to spend R&D money figuring out how to make a headset bearing as complex as possible? Looking at the drawing, I count 8 parts where there only needs to be 2.
  • 2 0
 Anybody else notice the black rubber band looking thing around the brake pads and screw on the Fox sensor picture? Is that part of the Fox system or some kind of World Cup Mechanic hack that I don't know about?
  • 1 0
 There's a comment underneath the picture in the gallery. ecod33 suggests, it's a mechanic's hack to keep those pads from rattling. I could even see that working to be honest...
  • 1 0
 I did that with O-rings to my finned Shimano pads after my first ride on them 3 years ago and they've been quiet ever since.
  • 1 0
 Patents.... Inventing stuff to block the market but never using it. The engineers probably get a patent bonus with different rewards depending if the patent is granted or not... Had an old colleague who earned more than his salary just filing parents each year when JnJ were all over patent drives. We never used any of them!
  • 1 0
 So the fox patent is their existing external bypass adjuster from the offroad-market.

The adjustment screw sets the limit of the how far the valve can open, where as the electronics will preload an IFP which provides resistance to the conical valve piston.

Interesting,

Offroad external bypasses are sloppy as hell for low speed damping and the preload would be a band-aid to add that support rather than isolating the circuit.

This design like external bypasses would likely include a flow path of position sensitive damping and be noisy/click to boot.

This likely has something to do with the RAD development, which included in car adjustments to bypass tubes via cables, then air preloaded bypass adjusters, eventually moving towards fully electric bypass adjusters with a smart controller. I am surprised to see it on bikes considering its been scrapped in R&D 3-4 times. I remember seeing the first electronically controlled external bypass in like 2012.

What a time to be alive
  • 4 0
 Specialized super caliber with knock block?
  • 1 0
 don't understand at all how electronic suspension could predict the terrain ahead of you....i can only see it working if you always ride the same trail and it somehow learns the route. Am i missing something?
  • 1 0
 That Specialized headset/steering limiter is nearly exactly like my '21 Canyon Exceed headset/limiter. Maybe Canyon didn't think it was worth bothering to patent? I would agree with Canyon on that point.
  • 3 0
 :runs to go pop some popcorn:
  • 3 0
 Love it. A headline with not one, but three things no one wants!
  • 1 0
 Article title could read, "Latest bike industry patents on added complexity with zero performance benefit for the marketing departments to advertise as new best".
  • 1 0
 So far, the best patent for cables has been used by GT, hiding them in the frame right behind the steering bearings. Easy, clean, great.
  • 1 0
 Every company is solving the easy not-problems. The real not-problem is that unsightly brake hose to the front wheel. How do we solve that?
  • 1 0
 Cable tourism, electronically controlled suspension and in-bar brake master cylinders will make all the new Bropeds look extra sleek. Just ditch the pedals for pegs.
  • 1 0
 I'm ok with the electric stuff until the add a weighing scale to the dropper post .
  • 1 0
 The majority of mtb patents these days just seem to be companies coming up with ways to solve problems they created haha
  • 2 0
 Just one small step toward electric no-wire, no-hose brakes.
  • 1 0
 I'm becoming more and more confident telling myself my next bike will be a Banshee
  • 1 0
 Bike industry just invented electricity, not Nikola Tesla or the other guy from GE.
  • 4 1
 Ugh.. change.
  • 1 0
 the big S has lost the plot and is now in full irritation mode using all their tech to be "precious"
  • 1 0
 Does hitachi have any tools coming to market for suspension seatposts?
  • 1 0
 Steering limiting and headset routing No and No lol
  • 4 4
 When all we want is a decent gearbox.
  • 3 6
 I would like to see a few improvements in my Pinion C1.9 and Zerode, but it's already so good I will never buy another fast failure derailleur bike.
  • 5 5
 Coupled to a 90nm motor with a 1kw battery.
  • 1 0
 wow williams
  • 1 0
 Williams 92?
  • 1 4
 so special needs wants to X internal head sets with cock block............
good luck with that :'D
  • 2 5
 This break liver hurts my kidneys... L☻L !







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