Pinkbike Poll: Clipless vs Flat - What's Your Pedal Preference?

 Suron, whatever you say...

 I always knew e-bikers liked getting pegged

 @notthatfast: No

 @Keegansamonster: hey now, pegging can be for anyone. Chainless gravity riders play ball too lol

 Perfect

 @pivotpoint: That’s Sir Ron, to you, thank you very much.

 @therealnobody: sir, ill have you know that chainless gravity riding is the pinnacle of pedaling technology.

 @Keegansamonster: kink shaming

 @Stinky-Dee: yep but they didn’t really start creating ruts until around lockdown when everyone went out and bought one. Seems to be dying a death around here thank god. They’ve all seemed to have gone back to golf.

 @thenotoriousmic: ruts?

 @Keegansamonster: This is Gold! LOL!

 @therealnobody: Yes! But don't forget the ones that hop around on the tech stuff with all their fancy suspension rather than some good old fashioned pedaling.

 To easy... Way to easy!

 Yep, where was my option for Clips

 Clips seems to be the norm

 @Ososmash: yes. people actually still use arcane / cumbersome verbiage other than "clips"?

 I've been referring to them as "Clip-ins" for a few years now, and I've heard them referenced as "Clips" more than a few times. I refer to "Flats" as platform pedals though, but I can change. Clips vs Flats, easy enough.

 No, because a clip pedal is the one with the cage over your foot, and they still exist.

 Yes, this is what I call them.

 @krka73: The proper term for those is "strap on" pedals.

 Most German speakers call them Klickpedale, because of the clicking sound when clicking, er, clipping in.

 This is going to sound crazy, but there are still mountain bikers out there that use toe clips on the regular.

 But what if I still have my original Shimano XT clip pedals, with toe clips and straps? I'm old now, won't that confuse me? Won't that lead to and endless debate of what is what?

 @BurtMcBurburt: 10 of them so far (show yourselves)

 Clippy clops

 @smashbeast: absolutely not. those are toe clips. observe. www.amazon.com/toe-clips/s?k=toe+clips

 I took the toe clips and leather straps off my old platform pedals and they became clipless

 @taprider: I moved from 26' wheels to 29 and it became a mtn bike.

 Clip in or clipless, it’s basically irrelevant since nobody is riding with toe clip pedals. Having started with toe clips we should all be thankful for that. If your saying clip-something we know it’s not flats and can assume it’s not toe clips.

 Too close to "click pedals." I don't take spin classes at equinox after starbucks.

 BINDINGS

 Heathens! Tradition DEMANDS that they are called clipless pedals. But by far my favorite name (and the most accurately descriptive, imho) is click-pedals.

 @krka73:
I always called those "rat traps"

 We call them 'click' pedals, because that's basically the sound they make when you ehm... Clip in.

 I’m old so I will call them clipless, because my first two bikes came with actual toe clips on bear trap pedals. But, I’m also not going to care when someone younger and has no clue or care about the history calls them clip-ins or whatever. It’s like getting upset over people’s preferred pronouns. People care way to much about things that don’t really matter.

Oh wait, I forgot I’m on Pinkbike, pick a term and be a dick about it.

 @smashbeast: what's your opinion on strap-on riding ?

 I've been calling them clips and flats for a decade.

 @axleworthington: I really want to see skis with pins and flat grippy boots now

 What’s a clip anyway?

In German we actually call them “click pedals” - I always thought that quite fitting, can’t judge how well it translates, though.

 @Hayek: it's already been done. Google 3 pin bindings

 @taprider: Holy hell

 As a rider that rode actual pedals w/ clips-strap and a proper toe strap button well before SPD how about this take?
Flats - yup, easy to define.
Cleated - no toe clips so why the term clip-less still around?
Cleated seems to make way more sense. Rocked the first versions of the SPD and so many more, many many Times, Looks (even the modified Delta’s, Crank Bro’s Mallets, Onza so seen a thing or more.
Flats
Cleated
Simple.

 @NWintheUSA: Sorry Cleatus, you're not gonna beat Clip

 I Norway we just call them click-pedals, after the sound it makes when click-in.

Either way, never tried them, but I like how its named after the sound. Just like the chapeau claque in France

 @krka73: They still exist but should also be renamed, perhaps to cage pedals?

 You have a bright future in the bike industry.

 @seraph: on PB at least…

 @seraph: Comment of the week... haha

 @seraph: or politics

 This is the way
(The PB way)

 Pinkbike commenters have that market cornered.

 If you wear clip pedals, you should be made to strap your hands to the bars too. Full bondage

 As long as the clit design matters...

 Real men don’t even need pedals

 Gold

 I don't think it's ever made any of my crashes worse being clipped. In most cases I automatically release while I'm crashing I think.

 @BarryWalstead: your anecdotal evidence is contradicted by my anecdotal evidence that I once saw someone get bonked on the head by his bike because he was clipped in and scorpioned it.

Was quite funny tbf.

 @inked-up-metalhead: also as evidenced by Friday Fails very often. That much leverage I’m sure cracks spinal discs.

 @inked-up-metalhead: Friday Fails!

 Dick a pedal and cry about it.

 Choose a dick and be a pedal about it!

 Pedal a dick and choose to be about it

 @alis66: Ouch. And i thought it hurt when i shin a pedal.

 No flats I ride clipped in
I can’t help if I always win

 it a pedal dick and be a choose about!

 Everyone's so pedal-dick about choosing

 People have been doing this for decades.

 @mackster23: Dick Pound

 Dick about and be pedal a pick.

 Clip your dick in and pedal it about

 Shimano > Sram

 Shelled sunflower seeds please

 @noapathy: he’s not buying them over the phone. He’s getting instructions from his wife about which ones to buy. Now that said, people still talk on the phone?!

 @BiNARYBiKE: I think we're in agreement, but I never said who was on the phone.

 Only surfers are allowed to buy pitted Olives.

 In Finland we call them "lock pedals", cause you're kinda locked into them.

 This all makes entirely too much sense.

 Dutch too

 ChatGPT (my new favorite thing) says that's "klickpedale" which is so much shorter than I was expecting.

 Same in Denmark

 "Automatic pedals" in french. Don't know why...

 @danstonQ: pedal automatique

 @pixelguru: 'hineinklickfahrradantriebfussteile' was more along the line of what you expected?

 @ak-77: under which rock do you live that you don't call them that?

 You must not be from here…its spd right and flats left. F’in Brits…

 Same here, flats are way more comfortable and fun at bike park, but the power transfer from being clipped in is unbeatable when pedaling.

 @Junker92: Dylan Johnson has a video about this. Lots of studies that show it’s placebo. You don’t actually get more power or “better power transfer” when clipped in. It just feels like you do.

 @brighterlights: "power transfer" might be the wrong term, but it's undeniable that you can pull up on the pedal when clipped in, which on some tricky/techy climbs makes all the difference between making it over the obstacle or not.

 @brighterlights: I think that’s true for grinding up long climbs and flat bits. But when there is a steep section or technical bit I do pull up. I use flats part of the time and if I’m just coming off a bunch of time on clips, I find I lift my foot off the flat pedal on tough sections until I adapt.

 @brighterlights:
I always think the power transfer argument is nonsense and I'm a long time clip rider. I use them because I don't like having to think about keeping my feet in place when I'm ploughing through rough terrain.

 na, I even ride clipped in at the park. I prefer chunky, fast tech trails over machine built superhighway jump lines, so the added security of not losing a pedal by being blasted off of it at high speeds is real nice.

I have also never had a crash caused by being clipped in(unless you count that time I fell over at a traffic light after a couple beers at the pub....), nor had a crash that was made demonstrably worse by being clipped in. So it's pretty much all upside from my perspective.

 I only ride SPD Shimandals in the Park!

 sorry, double post.

 @brighterlights: @Junker92: The pedaling efficiency change from flats to clipless is completely negligible, however, one's maximum 5 second power output can drop by around 30% by losing the ability to create pedaling force on the upstroke. This max power loss which is seldom necessary for real world use is where the 30% loss of efficiency rumor came from.

 I’ve been riding clips for a decade now, but was out in west NC last week and rented a bike. Was packing light and didn’t want to bring my pedals and single-purpose shoes so ran flats. Turns out you forget how to keep your feet on the pedals if they’re not mechanically attached — lots of scary moments.

 im more the opposite, im going way to fast at the bike park to ever consider flats.

 the world is a bike park

 @brighterlights: I tried clips at the end of last season. It felt like a pretty big difference, especially getting up and over things on technical climbs. Then I threw my flats back on and I didn’t really feel a disadvantage, and was cleaning the same climbs that I couldn’t before I tried clips. Just changed the way I pedal and my confidence I guess? I’d like to try them some more but at the moment I’m not sold at all.

 Not trying to be a dick, but you never learned how to ride flats (which is totally fine). Clipping in totally makes sense for racing. Not trying to bash on clipping in. But all the slop in the pedal-cleat interface makes you way less at one with the bike and trail. You have way more bike/trail feedback and input on flats. This is coming from someone who spent their first decade riding exclusively clipping in.

 @dancingwithmyself: perfectly polite you were.


But I have to disagree as you can get clips with large platforms where you 'feel' the pedal pretty much exactly like on flats. The difference is in how easy you can lift and move the back wheel, besides spinning way better circles which make it easier to finesse the power in tough climbs, AND the increase in connection when going through really chundery sections.
What you describe can be the difference between any two pedals of different design (be they clips or flats respectively).
As you can see from the poll, some riders went concave, some convex, so differences abound.

Your point isn't bad, just needs refinement.

 @dancingwithmyself: it's also ok to not care at a certain point and stick with whatever you're significantly better at. There's really no slop in a proper enduro or DH clip i.e. setup flat shoe + Mallet. This "feedback" you describe, if you mean suspension feedback tossing feet off the pedals in steep terrain while braking, well yea that's a feature of flats. Clips eliminate that.

 @excel: I agree. I think the Mallet is the best of both worlds.

 @excel: this is probably a pointless discussion, but for anyone reading: I did the whole mallet-set-up-to-feel-like-flats things. Took a fall, didn't come unclipped, and ended up needing surgery. Number of times I should have gotten stiches, but that's the only bike injury for which I had to go to the hospital. There is risk involved in that setup.

And even set up that way, there was still slop when you went to weight the inside or outside of the pedal or twisted your foot into the pedal to drive torque into the bike in corners.

I ride for fun, and I prefer the challenge and satisfaction of keeping my feet on the pedals with good technique. Absolutely fine for others to differ.

But any sentence that contains the phrase "best of both worlds" is almost always garbage. For instance, air springs have gotten really, really good, but they're still not a coil.

 @dancingwithmyself: what slop? CB mallets my shoes sit hard on the pedals, way more "in" feel than flats lmao

 @dancingwithmyself: I’ve also not been able to release from flats when crashing in multiple instances too. Clips allow you to release to the side and under force, which you can’t do with flats, instead you must lift your foot up and off the pedal, which can be difficult to do depending on where the force is coming from in a crash.

 @dancingwithmyself: I've certainly had some bad clipped-in crashes, and also some of my worst wrecks on flats - this is not a risk free sport we do. Riding with flats can and does inspire confidence, and certainly made me a better rider and now I corner with less fear. Clips are undoubtedly faster and I've always been a better rider clipped in, therefore I'm back on them now with more confidence than before. Better to be pedal agnostic over the years, but choose your favorite when it matters.

 @dancingwithmyself: you’ve got some downvotes but I completely agree. Being able to position my foot and push into the whole platform of the pedal is something that’s hard to give up when I’m riding clips.

 If your ability to move the rear wheel around changes from clipless vs flats, you have bad technique.

 @stubs179: i can ride both and do the same things with both BUT the technique is different to move the real wheel.

 Who runs convex pedals?? Better question, who's making convex pedals?

 @fektor-b: canefield crampons are convex. There’s a few others too.

 @mikelee: I run crampons

 Why do y'all hate convex pedals? Oneup composite pedals are freaking awesome since the shape actually matches the arch of your foot.

 @vtracer: I think the preference has a lot to do with foot placement habits, since the shape of a concave pedal matches the ball of your foot.

 Oneup/canfield = convex

 All the others never realized that there are almost no concave pedals in the market. Only some with longer pins at the ends.

 @AndrewHornor: I had to reread that, and then I realized your probably right. Concave allows ball of foot to sit down in - for how most people seem to position feet, this makes sense why they like concave. Conversely, if you have the ball of foot farther forward then convex feels good. I do place my feet pretty far forward. It's a habit from back when huck to flat and street trials was in, and I would jack my ankle on hard landings if my feet weren't forward enough on the pedal...so that's how I adapted. I prefer convex now...but it also took a long time to realize that because of the limited options and full on hype of concave/negative bashing of convex. But I prefer with convex, with the right shoe, the ability to reposition while unloaded, and that it doesn't make my feet hurt on long rides. And I truly don't feel like there is a need for more grip. It does depend a lot on the shoe and pedal. I run soft to medium flex shoes like freeride or freeride pros. With stiffer shoes, or even brand new pros, convex seem a little less secure.

 @ryan77777: CrankBrothers

 Oneup has surprisingly good traction, like ride-every-day-and-be-happy kind of traction and feel

 This is the way. Except I clip in.

 I like flats, but clipless give me a little more confidence to try new/difficult trails and features.

 @VtVolk: @iliveonnitro both, both is good

 @VtVolk: Lol

 @VtVolk: I’d boost that if I only rode clipless? Is that a thing now?

 If you're in the liquor store that often, you probably don't have worry about the power gains of different types of pedals. I remember those red sidis but I couldn't afford them.

 I purchased a pair from a sponsored rider for a great price. They were the longest lasting, most comfortable shoes I’ve ever owned. My riding buddy’s wife called them “foot lipstick!”

 @EricHarger: Yep I think mine were Sidi Dominator 2 and most def lipstick red!

 Acoustic pedals, haha

 I saw one of those barefoot hippies once who permanently fixed a pair of flip flops to his touring bike. Was kind of impressed.

 This was me exactly until I got a bigger bike. More squish and spikey pedals on mountains works well for me. Back when I was riding smoother pumpy trails (especially on a hardtail) SPD was the way for me. Tried going back to SPDs and they don't feel good anymore. Amazing what you get used to.

 Did you ever learn to bunnyhop on flats

 @emptybe-er: of course, rode bmx and flats for years. Just used clips for so long all my muscle memory for using them has been completely erased from my brain and I basically cannot ride a bike with flats anymore lol

 And a pair of shoes will last me 4 years

 Flats give you the ability to crash with much less consequence. I've been down the same road as you.. Crashing clipped in caused me serious injury a few times.. same type of crash (or much bigger) on flats saw myself dust off and get back on like nothing happened.

 @CDT77: In the skiing world, there is a lot of emphasis placed on making sure that your bindings are set to the right tension on the release mechanism for your skill level/terrain/riding style to avoid injury. I think this needs to be emphasized in the cycling world more. I have went down in clipless multiple times, and I have never sustained injury from being clipped in at the wrong time. I make an effort to tension the pedals juuust enough to keep my feet in for my style of riding, nothing more. I have been cheese graded by my stamps enough times that it looks like a soccer team took personal offence to my shins, so based on the topographical map that is my legs at this point, I would say flats have caused more injury to me personally.

 @BazookaFro: you make a great analogous point to ski bindings. If I could've clipped in with the appropriate tension release you mention I think might have avoid the injuries I sustained. I was taking the weight of the bike with me upon hitting the dirt / rocks. On the flipside however, I almost never suffer any pin damage with my flats - in that I've adopted pretty solid technique wherein I never slip a pedal. I'm keeping an open mind to clips in the future.

 You don’t need to feel like flats give you some special benefit. For me, I use flats because I have for 20 years and my favorite thing to do is hit jumps. I don’t see a good reason to be clipped in. My friends who ride clipped aren’t better off. And I can wear my flat pedal shoes anywhere without sounding like a tap dancer, and ride my bike somewhere with a random pair of shoes if I need to. But I wouldn’t claim flats are “better” than clipped.

 Similarly, I rode flats for the first year of riding, then switched to SPDs for the next 10 years. Shortly thereafter I started riding with a buddy who rode flats - so I bought some out of curiosity. Never going back.

For me, it is the feeling of the large, well-supported platform. When I am descending I like to get the middle of my foot right over the pedal spindle - something that is just not possible on clipless pedals. Also, clipless pedals (regardless of the platform size) always make me feel like I am standing on just the spindle/clip interface. No matter how stiff the shoe shank, I can tell that the only real point of contact is the clipless interface.

 What kind of bad habits do you get from clips? I ride both about the same amount of time, but I used to be exclusively clips, and I haven't really noticed any bad habits learned.

 @ThatOneGuyInTheComments: this tired of horse again.

The so called 'bad habits' are using the effects of being clipped in.
Like using your connecting for jumping. Won't make your crash, it just might be a different technique than you are forced to use on flats. Not sure that's a 'bad habit'.
Same with pretty much all skills touched on by this long debate.

It all comes down to some of the clipped in adaptation doesn't easily transfer to flats. But if you don't ride flats it quite literally cannot matter.

 Same for me. I found SPDs hurt my old knees now, and flats allow the most freedom to play around on the bike.

 @FatSanch: I'm precisely the opposite.

 @ThatOneGuyInTheComments: People that learn to bunnyhop with clipless (vs flats) can’t bunnyhop with flats, usually have a hard time keeping feet on flats while jumping etc. Clipless teaches a rider to pull with feet, that doesn’t work with flats

 @emptybe-er: That just sounds like different, not worse.

 @ThatOneGuyInTheComments:
It's a purist thing. A way for us flat riders to feel superior. Ultimately we are not, but don't tell anyone.

 @emptybe-er: and your interpretation of that?
Mine is that it is obvious and expected that a clip rider switching might have to learn things, but it only matters as a negative if a rider is switching from clips to flats. And that's the negative, not poor skills, just different.
Same with a rider that rides flats; put them on clips and they likely will not immediately be able to fully exploit the benefits of a clipped in shoe.

 @ThatOneGuyInTheComments: Not keeping feet on, not being learning to actually bunnyhop.. Idk, sounds different and worse to me. I rode spds for years, it’s whatever, horses for courses. But I already had flats skills.

 @BarryWalstead: Sounds about right, yeah. However, if you learn fundamentals (cornering, bunnyhop, manual, jumping, etc) on flats before clips, both are great. Switching from one pedal to another definitely hinders non-flat riders much more than flat riders. I picked up riding with spd’s in a few rides.

 @emptybe-er: that's a fair point, but I'm going to disagree that a flats rider can actually be truly proficient on clips for some significant amount of time.
As someone that has riden clips (primarily) since childhood I can unclip in basically all situations without any conscious thought. Put a flats rider on there and they will be nowhere near that for years. Same with the automatic clip when comparing a new clip rider to an old hand.

Not a negative about flats, but a note about how switching from one to the other requires some real relearning.

 @BarryWalstead: Yeah I agree it does take a while for clip/unclip to become almost subconscious. But I think the time needed also depends on dexterity and spatial awareness. As far as actual bike handling though, there just aren’t great bike handlers that can’t/don’t also ride flats. I feel like that says a lot about the skill flat pedals teach.

 You're thinking of the eighties. Clipless was pretty standard from mid 90's onward.

 @Murder-One: ….and he may be older than he thinks he is.

 I had the same issue with the question. I use Time ATAC and like them better than SPD. I selected Unknown.

 Yea, I didn't answer that one, bad poll question. The second option should be changed to "yes, I want my cleats compatible with a specific system," rather than assuming it is SPD.

 Same here! I think Mallets might help out as part of what I dislike with my SPDs (Saint pedals) is the Shimano float, but I can't really bring myself to spend that much money on a guess...

 I use my regular flats (Ride Concepts) with Rockbros shoe covers for winter fat biking. Inexpensive and very effective.

 @railbender: not one to flex but there are months up here in Alaska where the high is -20 F. Proper winter boots are a must, and cold feet is the #1 thing people struggle with up here when biking. I typically use Wah Wah 2's for my fat flats, big platform for big boots.

 Fat biking is not mountain biking. Its fat biking! Can't agree more. Hiking boots on flats for the snow. Iced over cleats and clipless pedals are not worth it. Mountain biking and gravel get the same clipless shoes and pedals.

 Elephant in the room is the horrendous shin injuries that result from slipping on flat pedals

 @jonbrady85: The only injury that's caused me to ride home and go straight to bed. A drop to flat that will endure in the memory of my bones.

 My Mom was very relieved when I told her that she could ride whatever bike she wanted with flat pedals and did not need to clip in. Clips definitely have their place, but I think a lot of new or even just not very confident riders feel compelled to use clips even though its not necessary, and that adds even more anxiety to riding. I go back and forth, but mostly use flats on MTBs now.

 You're more likely to get an injury from that elephant than your pedals.

 Or the horrendous injury to your pride when you fall over the first time in clipless pedals at a stoplight.

 @jonbrady85: Shinjuries

 @woofer2609: we call that getting Crank Brothered. Happens to the best of us

 @jonbrady85: who puts 2 elephants on in one room?

 @BenPea: Lol. A shinner sent you to bed?!

 @jonbrady85: baby elephant in the hallway is why full length shin guards are not worn by flat pedal riders.

 @emptybe-er: you weren't there man

 @jonbrady85: I ride a lot and I ride pretty rowdy terrain. I have never even tried clipless. I haven’t hit my shins in a solid 16 years. In my mind, it’s a complete non issue.

 @BiNARYBiKE: Good pedals and shoes make all the difference with this. I used to only really ride in things like Vans, and with the lower grip they offered you have to be a lot pickier with the pedals you use. You really notice just how little grip some pedals give (looking at you, Hope F20 and crankbrothers).
When I switched to FiveTens that reduced that issue, but I still used what I knew to be grippy pedals as having that extra traction helps out a lot in more marginal situations.

 Sincerely, clipless pedals often do cause knee injuries as a result of identical pedal position, constantly, over years and years. I happen to be professional acquaintances with one of the guys who more-or-less invented the modern bike fit. He confirmed that riding flats is a terrific idea for long-term joint health as the minor inconsistency and variance in foot placement introduces helpful variance in pedal mechanics and doesn't wear any particular aspects of your joints as quickly.

 @KJP1230: that's not actually very true in practice as basically all clip systems have float to them. So literally throughout the pedal stroke you can have your foot move with some clips.
With secure flats a lot of people struggle to get a 'good' placement and likely are peddling in the ways that could cause injury.

I get the facts you are presenting, but your interpretation is incorrect I believe.

 @BarryWalstead: I'm sorry, man. But this acquaintance I am referencing is literally the guy who invented the modern bike fit approach. I have it on extremely good authority that the interpretation handed to me is correct.

 @KJP1230: Does your friend have any peer reviewed articles on how the bike fit system he more or less invented proves that clipless pedals cause knee injuries?
I'm not saying they don't, but that is a pretty big word of mouth claim from an acquaintance.
I know many people who have been riding clipless for 30+ high mileage years with no issues. Properly fitted shoes, float, and correct gearing and crank length would also play a big factor.

 @woofer2609: Look, man. I'm not trying to be a dick, and I also don't want to just name drop. But this guy has founded centers; institutions of medicine, and training. He's coached and fitted the best athletes at the biggest race formats that exist in cycling - founded companies and has many of the biggest companies in the world that license his patents for their sub-branded product lines available on the shelf today.

The antecdotes of "I know this person who has had this luck..." only go so far. Some people are more or less durable than others. Some people fit on a bike quite well - and some people actually go to the expense of getting very good bike fittings done (as we all should), including q-factor on cranksets, etc. I am not here to suggest that there are not things that can be done to make clipless pedaling harmless - absolutely you can get an ideal or perfect bike fit done! My initial point was simply that utilizing flat pedals conveys less risk of some of these types of "sports" or overuse injuries because of the natural variation introduced by flat pedals. I don't think that is controversial.

 @KJP1230: No, I get what your saying, I am more curious if clipless pedals are a culprit, or ill fitted clipless pedals are the culprit. I know in some dirt biking circles riders veer away from ADV type boots with lugged soles because it adheres too much to the footpegs, thus transferring any rotational pressure on the foot up the leg to the knee.
MX soles with ribbed tread that allow lateral boot movement on the pegs are preferred.

 @KJP1230: that's kind of like claiming you dad is a doctor in elementary school, it don't count for shit.

But if you're telling the truth or not, what I'm saying is absolutely true, as evidenced by how many flat riders feel like they are 'loose' on clips because of the float.

Whatever your 'acquaintance' says to the contrary, that's the truth. Now, back with cleats that fit over the edge of the pedal knee injury was hugely common, but modern style clips pretty much solved that, again because they float, even with power applied.

 @BarryWalstead: "Float" in the pedal is rotational range of motion permitted by the interface before the clipless cleat releases from the pedal. This is not the same as actual side-to-side and forwards-and-backwards movement allowed by a flat pedal. Does float allow the ankle, knee, hip, etc. to alter VERY slightly during the stroke? Yes. But nowhere near the degrees of freedom from a flat pedal where your foot can literally move millimeters to centimeters each time you place it on the pedal.

I'm not even sure why you're arguing this. There are absolutely people who have knee and hip operations at sports medicine facilities due to biking for years or decades in slightly off bike fit. I have a dear friend who destroyed his meniscus over 3 decades of riding due to a slight miscalculation in the required q-factor of his cranks/pedal spindles.

You're just pretending that these injuries don't happen and that they are not the result of identical foot position in a slightly misaligned or imperfect bike fit. It's bizarre. Here is a direct quote from a bike-specific physical therapist's website: "Over 85% of the time, knee pain is related to the saddle and/or cleat positioning for those with clipless pedals. Due to the repetitive nature of pedaling, precise, millimeter-sized adjustments in position can make a dramatic impact on your knees."

If you simply google clipless pedals and knee or hip injuries you can find websites from medical practices and professionals, peer-reviewed and published papers on the subject, and more discussing the potential impact of clipless pedals and injuries to the foot, ankle, knee, hip and lower back.

 @KJP1230: and you're arguing that there is the ability to move ones foot on a flat pedal while pedaling. Nope. Not a chance.

When you're powering on a flat pedal your foot is basically locked into place, and you must unweight to move it. Again, not to a set position, either correct or incorrect. Just however you manage to get it seated.
Knee injury isn't from too far forward or side to side, it's caused by flexing the knee while the foot is rotated off center (center for that specific persons joints).
Now I get that you are correct in referencing clip pedals as a possible source of that, but what you miss is that literally 99% of the most serious pedaling bicyclists are using clips, so maybe they are just the common denominator, not the cause.
Your argument is like the people that claim seat belts cause injury because they can cite an example of one or two case, but forget that as most people use seat belts of course you will find some that caused injury, but always less as an average compared to not using them.

How can you argue that a spiked, flat pedal, with sticky rubber could possibly be the better constant location for lots and lots of knee flexing as compared to a clip with FLOAT?

I completely understand float on clips, I personally ride Crankbrothers Mallet DH pedals with (comparatively) huge platforms for a clip. But as I run them with the pins only part way out my feet can move to their natural orientation literally while I spin circles. How can you disagree with that?

 @BarryWalstead: Ok. You're off the rails. You are claiming I am asserting things that I am not asserting. And you're entirely missing the point of my original post. You're concluding paragraphs asking me, "how can you disagree with...." when the thing you have said is NOT what I am disagreeing with. At the core, you are misunderstanding what I am saying and projecting your own thoughts into my assertion.

1. I am NOT claiming that the foot position changes markedly during pedaling on a flat pedal (although it can if you consciously or unconsciously unweight and reset the foot on the pedal, as I often do when riding). I AM claiming that a flat pedal introduces natural variation in foot placement each time the foot leaves and returns to the pedal, and that this variation - in terms of absolute position and degree - does not exist with a clipless system, irrespective of float. This is because float allows for minute rotation of the toe/heel around the axis of the cleat, but that this degree variation is insignificant relative to the variation in placement on a flat pedal.

2. You are incorrect about what can cause knee (not to mention ankle, hip, lower back and soft tissue) injuries in cycling. Full stop. Case in point: knee injuries (much less the other types of orthopedic injuries referenced above) absolutely CAN be caused by "too far forward", "side-to-side", in addition to other misalignment characteristics. Some of the most common soft tissue injuries in cycling (e.g. patellar tendonitis, IT band friction/inflammation, deterioration of the meniscus) can be caused by exactly those alignment issues! Case in point: I have a friend who has been an avid road, gravel and XC-marathon racer for decades. He destroyed his meniscus specifically by pedaling with a slight misalignment in relative q-factor in his crankset and pedal spindle lengths as confirmed by his sports physician and his surgeon (who specializes in cycling cases). Similarly, I was beginning to get IT band pain from using clipless pedals on my trainer. I switched to flat pedals and the inflammation/irritation was gone instantly.

3. I am not saying that clipless pedals are evil. I am saying that if one would like to ameliorate the risk of sports injuries from cycling and they'd like to use clipless pedals, it becomes important that you get a comprehensive and near perfect bike fit. Does this mean that cyclists who fail to do so are doomed to injury? Absolutely not! As I have stated before, many people are more or less durable or susceptible to specific injury based on a combination of genetic and behavioral factors, combined with the actual amount of time participating in the activity.

Let me state it as a formula for you: (Probability of sports injury from imperfect bike fit + Clipless pedals) > (Probability of sports injury from imperfect bike fit + flat pedals)

4. All things being equal, a flat pedal represents less probability of the injury types I mention. This does not mean that flat pedals represent no injury probability. It simply means that variation in foot placement during pedaling bouts introduces less opportunity to wear down or overuse very specific portions of the cyclist's physiology. In contrast to clipless pedals, which create a significantly more consistency in absolute foot position, increase the opportunity to wear down or overuse very specific portions of the cyclist's physiology.

I get it. I made a claim that clipless pedals sometimes cause injuries as a result of ultra consistent foot placement and pedal stroke characteristic relative to flat pedals, given conditions of equally imperfect bike fit. You don't like this notion, because you use clipless pedals and you have not been personally injured in this way. Further, you enjoy the feeling and benefit of clipless pedals (of which there are many!). But please stop engaging argumentative tactics such false analogy, strawman, etc. It's not constructive and you're simply arguing against things I am not claiming.

If you'd like to, I'd welcome you to search pubMed or other research data bases for articles related to clipless pedal induced injuries. You'll find peer reviewed research and case studies.

 @KJP1230: we seem to be misinterpreting each other on a few levels. But I appreciate the reasoned response.

What is your response to the fact that most all serious bike riders (meaning the vast majority of miles pedaled) are from riders using clip pedals, and therefore you would expect to see those injuries more than those from flat pedals. Again, simply due to the miles traveled.
Because basically all road riders clip in, basically all gravel riders clip in, all track riders clip in, BMX racers clip in, basically all cross country racers clip in...
See where I am going with this?

I do understand about injury from misalignment, where ones foot isn't 'flat' to the pedal and needs some adjustments to get the knee to operate optimally, but wouldn't that still be the same on flats?

You're right, I personally prefer to be clipped for all the benefits that entails, but I'm no maniac that claims they could never injure or that everyone needs to be clipped.
(See your arguments about strawmen, false analogies, etc.)

 I know I'm jinxing myself, but I can't remember the last time I took a flat pedal to the shin. It's probably been more than 5 years.

 @freestyIAM: hope not, cos it’s a bugger, especially if it gets infected.

 Totally agree! I like to descend with the spindle of the pedal nearly directly under the arch of my foot. Makes me feel so much more stable and supported - allows for more aggressive pumping of the bike and very much relieves fatigue in the calves and quads; enables more glute engagement to create a powerful position.

This position simply cannot be achieved on any clipless shoes - truly baffling to me. Mountain bike shoes need to be designed for a cleat-under-arch position.

 @KJP123 peddling clipless with cleat under arch for any distance uphill is awkward and just not doable.

 @kingbike2: I climb with my flat pedal more-or-less under the arch of my foot and I climb perfectly well. This is actually how I have my 'bike fit' done. I also pedal in this position on my indoor trainer and produce similar power-per-heart rate as pedaling with a "ball of the foot" position.

No doubt, under extreme or very racy exertion there is some additional power to be had from a "ball of the foot" position. By I ride more "enduro" style - long, grinding climbs to justify the descents. No question, descending is better with the spindle under the middle of your foot. For me (and presumably others who prefer to optimize for descending) it would be well worth it.

 Why not try and tackle em both at once...

I'd consider myself more pedal fluid as I don't take a binary stance; there was a time when I was flat but very clip curious. As I got older I realized I wanted to switch and eventually I came out to my family and friends

 The one underneath!

 "It's getting towards the end of the month and we're low on user engagement. What lazy shit can we slap up that will generate a bunch of comments?"

 Flats require skill

 Next up, which lines up with the valve stem.; the tire manufacturer/logo or tire model/max pressure recommendation? Pick one.

 Handlebar width: is wider really better? The truth will shock you

 @VtVolk: I've been noticing a large amount of mtb pundits claiming "curiosity" towards stack height. Thats going to be the new one once the crank length discussion settles back down.

Bar width is so 2022.

 We used half clips on MTB's in the 80's - allowed a bit more freedom to move around.

 I mostly ride flats, but one recent time in very slippery mud I was wishing that I had clips so my feet didn't slide off

 It's funny, because it's true! Ugh, That white stuff makes me queasier than the blood.

 I'm siding with the Euro crowd above who call them clicks, makes so much sense. Bindings are for winter sports.

 What about clipped in with a platform? What do you call those?

 @Ososmash: foot pegs

 Straps for MTB's seemed like a good idea there in the 90's for a brief stint...

 I’m old enough to have rocked toe clips and straps for a while back in the day. Nothing else gives you that same “locked in” feeling. I often contemplated that after going OTB and straining to reach the buckles to free my feet before surveying my bruised and bloody meatsuit. Granted, we were riding 26” bikes with 70 degree head angles, hard, narrow tires, shitty brakes, and sky-high seat posts, and you could make a call from a pay phone for a dime, and NAFTA was still a great idea that couldn’t go wrong…what were we talking about?

 @VtVolk: Hard truths, all of them.

 The worst of both worlds with that junk.

 I dont' get the foot stability issue. Flats have a huge contract area. Yes, feet can come off the pedal, but I prefer being on flats now for the abillity to put my feet in difference places whether climbing or descending. On my hardtail flats are kinda brutal, though. Bigger bike and it's basically a non-issue being on flats. Rode spds for 20 years and never thought I'd switch.

 I ride in really low speed, chunky crap and my primary reason I haven't switched is because I haven't learned how to very quickly dismount and use my foot to stop falling over sideways or backwards on loose rock...thinking of biting the bullet when my current shoes & pedals bite the dust.

 and the guy being a dick about it has entered the room.

 The handful of times I've spent mountain biking with clipless pedals, i've not really felt like it was as stable for standing on. In SPDs it always feels like I'm standing on a point. The Mallets I thought were better, but didn't feel like the pedal was wide enough. I only wear a size 10, so its not like I have big feet. But in my Fiveten Hellcats, it just feels like the edge of the pedal was in my middle of my foot in corners. What's also interesting is that on my road bike I go clipless. There's just a lot less lateral movement. I will say that my last attempt at riding clipless went pretty well. Maybe I'll try it again in the future.

 @sonuvagun: how exactly am I being a dick?

 @warmerdamj: It might be the perceived sarcasm about there being a pedal system that improved on flats' biggest issues but I'm not sure.

 @sjma: If you focus really hard on getting unclipped really fast it shouldn't be a problem. It just takes a while to make it instinct. Can practice by jumping off with both feet at once, etc.

 Freerider Pros on Deftraps. Zero issues.

 @therealnobody: You're right, I'm such a dick. I'm just f*cking horrible. I should probably be banned.

 @warmerdamj: there is room for more than one opinion my friend.

 @sjma: if you have to consciously think to unclip you will fall , it has to be muscle memory. Unfortunately the Only way to get that point is experience.

 Tell that to Sam Hill

 Clipless is like using ski boots with binders