Pinkbike Poll: Do You Care About Sustainability?

Nov 10, 2017
by Paul Aston  
Bamboo frames created in New Zealand by Puerto Rican Kiwi Freddy Salgado
Do we all need to buy one bamboo hardtail and use it for our whole life?

Sustainability is a terrible word. It gives us hope and reassurance that we can do something good, but, in reality, only a couple of actions we take as humans are really 'sustainable.' The one difference we can make to the planet is choosing what amount of damage we cause.

Cycling is a multi-billion-dollar industry that is desperate for us to continuously consume to keep growing. Growth is the elephant in the room; the only way to run a business in modern society is through continuous growth to keep everyone happy in the end; growth without destruction is a fallacy.

Many of us want shiny new things, the latest and greatest bikes and parts. This urge is driven by intelligent marketing teams and the media (yes, I realize that includes me). But the reality is that the worst thing you can do is buy any new product. One of Patagonia's most successful adverts ever was one that said "Don't buy this jacket." In an attempt to tell their consumers that buying a jacket–even one that comes from the most ethical sources–is worse than continuing to use their old stuff. They reportedly sold more jackets than ever after this campaign.

A few articles recently have caused a stir about this topic: Pole's attack on carbon fiber (we are currently working on some other articles that fights for the side of carbon manufacturers), my GreenOil review and their approach to clean, man-made chemical and petroleum free products. Other brands have also been vocal in the past like Commencal and now Sick Bicycles are having a dig at carbon too.


If you don't dribble crude oil-based products on to your chain, does it make any difference at all when the fifteen biggest cargo boats in the world burn more oil than all road vehicles combined? What about asbestos, lead and nickel brake dust heading into the atmosphere and then soil every time your not on the Deathgrip (that's 100% of the time for me) program? When you start the month with a fresh tire and finish it with a semi-slick, what happened to those sharp-edged vulcanized rubber tread blocks you paid for?

Just because bikes are not the biggest polluters, especially compared to boats, planes and construction, does that mean we should avoid giving a damn, or does consumer demand make the real difference? If we all order locally grown bamboo bikes would that mean that one of those super-boats will lap the world one less time in the next few years, or will it be filled with some other disposable crap?

Sick Bicycles having a rant this week about carbon 'ocean fill' on Instagram.


I've been researching this topic a lot recently and am torn between hope and despair. For every positive step forward, there seems to be a monstrous negative. The question here is, does any of this have an effect on what you buy, or where and how you ride?


Do you care about Sustainability?

Do nature and the environment play any role in the products you buy or how you ride your bike?



Must Read This Week

464 Comments

  • + 270
 'The planets fine. It's the people that are fucked'
  • + 29
 mother nature bats last!
  • + 133
 You know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna get myself a 1967 Cadillac, El Dorado convertible
Hot pink with whaleskin hub caps and all leather cow interior
And big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, yeah
And I'm gonna drive around in that baby at 115 mph
Getting one mile per gallon, sucking down quarter pounder
Cheese burgers from McDonald's in the old fashioned
Non-biodegradable Styrofoam containers
  • + 20
 @zorba73 George Carlin would be proud; )
  • + 21
 wish you were 100% right @zorba73 ..a more accurate statement:

"people are f*cking up the planet"
  • + 8
 @FlowTheory: Have you read/listened to the Bobiverse books by Dennis E. Taylor?
  • + 7
 @Boardlife69: One of my favorite stand up comics after Carlin; Dennis Leary
  • + 12
 @ledude: Google and watch: Life After People. You will feel better. As ckcost says mother nature bats last. I do fear for my children and their children...
  • + 16
 If the world's population continues to grow at it's current rate nothing much is going to be sustainable for us as a species, probably the best thing that can happen to all other species.
  • + 7
 @Boardlife69: You're an a*shole Wink
  • + 2
 @jpetznick: That's a bit harsh, @Boardlife wasn't the one that stole Bill Hicks' routine
  • + 7
 @jpetznick:

I drive real slow in the ultra fast lane, while people behind me are going insane...
  • + 3
 @Boardlife69: "...cause we've got the bombs"
  • + 26
 That poll could add a couple more categories for reasons why people purchase (or not to purchase) for sure.

Sure, I care about having a small footprint during my time on this floating rock, but aside from that, I've just never jumped on the carbon bandwagon. I'm not confident in carbon fiber products longevity or agree with their luxury price tags so the fact that they're ocean fill it's even more of a no brainer to never own a carbon frame or component.

I hucked a 2003 Big Hit off a drop to flat recently and the only reason I even tried it was because I knew the bike was a tank. I have zero confidence in 15 year old carbon frame or rims.
  • + 24
 @NYShred: Having owned carbon fibre bikes in the past I can truthfully say that I will never buy another. They are too expensive and I don’t really see the benefits over a well designed aluminium frame. Who cares about a slight weight penalty, in reality most of us aren’t pro racers that need that extra 0.58 second time up or down a trail.
Recent developments on the long term impact of carbon fibre manufacturing will hopefully push more bike brands into giving us what we want - more well designed, better priced aluminium bikes that after years of use can be melted down to make your next frame!
  • - 2
 Way to twist facts around so you don't need to feel responsible.
  • + 60
 @metaam: Hate to say it but peeps gotsta chill on the having babies aspect of life... Or laws implemented at one kid per fam... We can't sustain this growth for long!
  • - 2
 @NYShred: I have a ton of confidence in newer carbon and carbon wheels! Huck to flats all the time without issue... A spoke tension on my wheelset once a season and I'm good..
  • + 6
 @Boardlife69: How many kids on here do you think know what this is from?!?
  • + 18
 @metaam: the real issue and the one that nobody wants to discuss. Population is constantly bumping up against increased food yields, yet we continue to stupidly reproduce at an unsustainable rate. If there were 500 million people on this globe, our impact would be far less and so would enviromental concerns. Unfortunately, in most of the world, people could care less about having two children or less. If the population does finally contract, it will cause economies to contract, but something has to give.
  • - 1
 @Murph86: That will never happen! At the end of the day people love their carbon!
  • - 4
flag OnkleJoachim (Nov 10, 2017 at 14:48) (Below Threshold)
 @Boardlife69: A S S H O L E
  • - 1
 @carym: population is not infact 'the real issue'. If you do happen to think this is some sort of single issue problem, id go with 'per capita carbon consumption'. However, in reality its way more complex, and more importantly, its not about pointing fingers or playing the blame game.
  • + 6
 @carym: Totally agree! Everyone thinks they are entitled to reproduce as they see fit without any concern for the future.. We adopt the IT WON'T HAPPEN FOR GENERATIONS attitude without a second thought and carry on as if all will be well..
  • + 3
 @m47h13u: The Duke is not dead...
  • + 9
 @bohns1: as Burr says, we just need to get rid of 85% of everyone. If not, It's only going to get worse: a global decline in jobs due to tech, wars, and climate change are all going to converge very soon to unleash an era of very distructive politics and bad human behaviour.
  • + 0
 @bohns1: do that huck to flat in 15 years on your carbon frame & wheels and see how that resin holds up.
  • + 7
 @Mojo348: Get rid of 85% of everyone? OK, you go first. Or are you one of the 15 percent you've deemed worthy enough to live. Let me guess...
  • + 7
 Some men just want to watch the world burn, Master Wayne.
  • + 0
 @bohns1: how do you implement that law, friend?
  • + 10
 @m47h13u: and park in handicapped spaces while handicapped people make handicapped faces?
  • + 21
 @carym: For YEARS I’ve said every single major issue that is wrong with the world can be traced back to stupid people have kids.

If we put birth control in Mountian Dew in the US and some of the water/food we send to third world countries it would make a positive impact.
  • + 8
 @JesseE: Can we talk for a second about rolling coal? Did anyone else click the link? Did anyone else read the part where it's not a problem anywhere in the world except the states?
  • + 9
 @JesseE: Hey! Innocent bystander here, who doesn't own a diesel but does wrench on cars and trucks. That article isn't entirely accurate. Rolling coal is more about poor efficiency of an engine under certain operating conditions. I've seen bone stock VW Jetta's roll coal and "bulletproofed" trucks not. Heck, I've even seen gas engines roll coal. It is something you CAN modify your engine to do, but often it's a byproduct of poor planning on an engine build. Look at LMP1 endurance racing. Lots of built high power diesel engines there, not much coal.

My personal opinion (which is not a fact) is that any smoking engine is a dying engine, so I am not a fan of coal rolling. Just wanted to put that out here so gearheads like me won't get as bad of a wrap.
  • + 11
 get over yourselves, were all just a mustard burp in time. In the bigger picture none of this means shit. 100 years? pfft. Earth has cycled through and survived way more than we could fathom. Enjoy your existence. Eat pizza, get high, have a beer and ride your bike. /soapbox
  • + 4
 I agree that humans are bound for a colossal cull via Mother Nature...not many will survive the period when Earth becomes uninhabitable by most in most places. The 1%'ers will be ok..that is what is important.
  • + 16
 @samanual: it is not the single issue, but perhaps the most dominate. If there were 50 million people on this globe, we could burn, eat, drive, and live pretty much how we want. 500 million people would represent a 12 fold decrease from where we are. If every person agreed to limit reproduction to 1 child per couple, we would see more than a 75% decrease in population in two generations. Again, we would see a severe contraction in our economies, but would also see a huge reduction in our demand on resources, even ignoring efficiency gains in the use of resources. We are our own worst enemy (and I am far from a liberal or enviromentalist).
  • - 2
 @JesseE: you should really try it... shits addicting
  • + 5
 @bohns1: I'm sure having sex will go out of fashion soon. Not to worry.
  • + 4
 @carym: Just like deer populations without predators or former fallen societies that depended on too few different resources we will experience a severe die off. Zombie holocost style where people eat more than just your brains. We need to get these bikes bullitproof so they last through the Apocalypse and maybe incorporate some kind of projectile weapons fore and aft.
  • + 1
 youtu.be/0ZFq-09gzTw
Kind of like this but a quarter the weight and better pedalling.
  • + 3
 @carym: Europe is already doing that. The number of births per woman in Europe is less than 1.6. And those countries with high birth rates are rapidly coming down.
Search for Hans Rosling for some good info.

But to those who want to reduce the number of people quickly. How do you want to do that? Take all the people killed in WW II, hey throw in WW I as well, and Substrat that number from the current population. You will make no difference.
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69:

I'm a a*shole
  • - 3
 @carym: we need more democrats=abortions
  • + 7
 @owlie: The Earth has lost nearly half its wildlife in the last forty years.
Millions upon millions of years of evolution wiped out. That's a tangy mustard burp.
  • + 4
 Its about doing your part as a consumer and not giving up hope because than you are falling into the inevitability trap! Climate change is real no matter what trump or any other idiot says! We can create huge change just by what we do in our daily lives. Fossil fuels and the clothing industry are the top two polluting industries. Agriculture and livestock industry are taking up more and more land and pumping greenhouse gas emissions into our atmosphere as global population grows. I recommend all to watch films such as Cowspiracy, before the flood, dirt the movie and fast fashion. The first step is awareness!
  • - 9
flag jaame (Nov 10, 2017 at 22:30) (Below Threshold)
 Who gives a shit? If Antarctica melts, people can live there. All those people from the south pacific islands and Holland, for example.

Humans do not have a right to eternal survival.

We will die out eventually. What if you forego that carbon frame for the sake of the environment and then a huge meteor hits next week? Life is for living. You might die tomorrow.
  • + 4
 @ridog1: the first step is awareness, second don't make it into a recreational outrage. 3rd educate yourself. I know people who perversely love watching documentaries and reading books about how terrible humans are to the environment and then they moralize vividly. I myself am like that in certain subjects. We just love to feel like caring human beings but there's little trace of that care in our actions. And just because we are aware of certain repercussions we may not be aware of what is causing them. So it takes much more own research and quality reflection than to watch an emotional documentary. The case of carbon frames being evil is an excellent example. So it is with electric cars, eco foods, eco cotton, etc.
  • - 4
flag BlindMan77 (Nov 10, 2017 at 23:41) (Below Threshold)
 @mitochris: except for Muslims in Europe, they have like 10 kids per house,
  • + 2
 @jaame: got to be sarcasm, surely?
  • + 20
 @BlindMan77: stop watching fox you massive turd.
  • + 3
 "The planet's fine, the people are f*cked" is the line environmentalists need to push. The planets got another 4 billion years left. We don't if we continue as we are.
  • + 1
 @FLATLlNE: battle royale!!!
  • + 0
 @JesseE: This is so 'merica
  • + 1
 @Racer951: gold, have a like
  • + 2
 @Chonky13: too bad he stole from bill hicks. Fu*k him.
  • + 17
 The answer that this poll is really missing is: I care a lot, I talk a lot about it, I educate people, I don’t do shit.
  • + 0
 @Murph86:
Some people are more knowledgeable of the differences between aluminum and CF bike frames than you apparently are, thus ride CF bikes for reasons you're not aware of.
  • + 1
 "https://vimeo.com/54241689"
  • + 3
 @BlindMan77: ...or Mormons in the USA, or "good" Catholic families who use "natural family planning" rather than a birth control method with a proven track record, or other good christians who gladly accept however many children God brings them, or good Hasidic Jewish families, or...or...or...or.....
  • + 1
 @pakleni: close he's quoting Denis Leary.
  • + 5
 @Murph86: yeah carbon is a scam, total waste of money, it's brilliant though, $400 actual cost, Jacked up to $3000 that suckers will gladly pay for imaginary benefits haha
  • + 6
 @JesseE: "The practice of rolling coal has not spread enough to justify legislation outside of the United States."

Hey we won! We have the biggest and best douche bags around!
  • + 3
 Specialized has this new brochure were they claim to recycle their carbon frames, however, they don't explain how they do it and nobody seems to have an answer when you ask about it.
  • + 1
 Agree, the planet will go on to the next phase and humans will be a bookmark if we keep destroying everything. We can make better decisions about what bikes we buy - for instance I ditched all my carbon bikes and am back on locally made aluminum and titanium bikes (locally as in hundreds of miles away and not from China). The metal can be recycled, carbon, not so much. Also - get the most durable parts - better on your pocket book too.
  • + 2
 @JaredHarzan: Just finished the Bobiverse series, great read!
  • + 5
 @bohns1: what if i want 2 kids? Youre gonna get the govt to come kill it, like in China? Youre flyin the wrong flag.
  • + 1
 @NYShred: Haha dafuq! 15years? For real?? Dude I celebrate new bike day every two seasons!
  • + 7
 @scary1: I subscribe under max two kid thing but not as a policy. Rather a good advice. Both for the environment and for your own sanity. One day my wife told me that she thinks she’s preagnant. It would be our third child. My first thought was literally how to kill myself in best way. Second thought: but I can’t leave her, that would be an a*shole move. Third thought. I’ll wait until it gets 7-10 and then I kill myself. Fourth thought:: Ihave to tell her that I’m happy before she gets pissed off
  • + 1
 @scary1: No of course not.. But perhaps a hefty fine.. Something so drastic that it will border on making your life miserable because you have to pay it off as you raise your two kids.. You'll have to for go extracurricular activities because it simply won't be in the budget... Keep reproducing like we are and we will be like China son! At some point we will be accountable..
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69: Man, you really are an a*shole.
  • + 4
 Everyone, one point, for anyone who is environmentally conscience and wants to make a difference. Go vegan. Don't jump on vegan hate band wagon. Educate yourself on the environmental consequences of animal agriculture.
  • + 1
 @ledude: "We are merely a surface nuisance, a tick. And at any time the planet can just shake us off! We are not so much concerned with our planet as much as we are of our habitat. Our immediate surroundings"
  • + 1
 Planet can’t really shake us off... it lacks will and consciousness... unless we kill ourselves, we will sooner or later give raise to conscious machines. And we will possibly not be here to watch if they give a sht about ice sheets and plastic in the ocean. They may not care much about air pollution and poisoned water. It may do lots of things like use us as slaves to build itself a fleet of space ships and fk off to a better place.
  • + 2
 @mitochris: Hans Rosling is awesome on populations and sustainability. Such an interesting guy.

Sustainability is super difficult because every person's decisions cumulatively make a huge difference but individually make no difference. There's no instant gratification involved and it's very difficult to make an informed decision. It's hard to know even what to measure.
  • + 2
 @choppertank3e: Just go visit doctor snipple and get those tubes sliced..
  • + 2
 Timing is everything...haha......just rewatched The Matrix for the first time since it came out(1999)...a fair bit of that script is current events today. This scene was and is now, more than ever, Absolute Truth.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM1-DQ2Wo_w
  • + 3
 @bohns1: Go tell that to China and India and see how it goes over. Fact: 20% of the world uses 80% of its resources. Whom are the 20% you think?
  • + 1
 @markar: indeed. So true.
@YoKev: I’m not saying carbon is an inferior product, it’s actually amazing when you think about how strong vs how light it can be constructed. I’ve loved riding carbon frames and wheels in the past.
My point is, considering how far aluminium frame building techniques have come in the past few years, and keeping in mind the environmental impact of manufacturing it, and we haven’t even brought up the long term health problems workers in second and third world countries face while building your nice new carbon MTB all the while being paid well below most country’s minimum wage.
Is a carbon bike really worth that high price tag?
I’m sure you know way more about carbon fibre than me and people will always still buy that $9000 dream bike, but just remember we are all entitled to an opinion and we don’t have to agree.
  • + 1
 @Murph86: with carbon there's no margin for error when making a frame, every step must be done perfectly, every single brand will crack also, it's just more fragile, defect or a minor crash and crack! or it falls over onto something and that small impact is a crack! Instead of a small dent, I don't get the point, on a fatbike though certain carbon rims and forks are fine, huge weight savings and damage is unlikely on snow, some carbon fatbike frames seem to crack for no reason? It's probably because they aren't being scanned, just a visual inspection hahaha, they are just cranking them out and the warranty hassle is for the customer to put up with, they have the money that's all that matters, a certain amount will crack some won't haha
  • + 0
 @YoKev: actually I now totally understand where you are coming from. Considering your current government doesn’t give a shit about the environment and definitely doesn’t care brown people on the other side of the word working themselves to death for f*ck all money (That is unless they have some form of desired resource and are in need of some good ol’ America freedom)
It actually makes total sense that you’re a total ‘A-SS-HO-LE everybody!!’
  • + 3
 @bohns1: yeah, im gonna vote for ONE MORE thing for the govt to control my life with. Some of you people really trust your overlords.
  • + 2
 @mitochris: you do realize that europe is importing migrants because the birth rate is too low, right
"3rd world" countries have birth rates that are much, much higher and large populations with neither control nor indoctrination
  • + 2
 @Boardlife69: Can I ride in the back seat, drink whiskey & beer from the bottle while i watch porn on my smartphone, throwing the empties over my head?
  • + 0
 @jimmyconnors: isn't that evolution? We are not wiping out evolution, we are part of it, wether we like it or not!
  • + 2
 @RideTahoe707: is this a joke? Europe has the strictest diesel emission standards in the world and has for a long time... they are the leader in clean diesel tech
  • + 1
 @bohns1: why not just make an age limit while we're at it? Start with 70.
  • + 3
 @Chalchalero: The intelligence we have is a product of evolution. That intelligence allows us choice. Extinguishing species around us at the rate we are, while in the most part not ackowledging we are, is incredibly stupid. We're upsetting the balance of something that existed long before us and took millions of years to bring about. We have choice, we use it by either acknowledging our impact and acting on it - or not.
  • + 3
 @jimmyconnors: One positive is that geologic time is very slow cf human existence. Once we are gone (I reckon we will be lucky to get another few hundred years at our current rate) life on Earth will go on and evolution will continue.
  • + 1
 @DonkeyTeeth: one of my favorite quotes of all time.
  • + 2
 @jimmyconnors: I assume this is trumps fault? or is it Trek's ?
  • + 1
 @carym: Population is a real issue and it IS being discussed and studied. There is a TED Talk which I think can give you some understanding of the issue. Basically, the world will be fine. Humans are a relatively new species. Our birth patterns have everything to do with survivability. Areas of the planet that have advanced technologically to a certain degree have slowed population growth to a negative metric. Northern Europe, Japan, US and Canada have negative growth patterns. The areas with the lowest survivability have the most prolific growth, ie: Africa, Asia, etc. Once these areas advance to our tech level their population growth will also greatly subside. These are cold hard facts. The point I took from this information was that we in the most modernized societies would be best served to help these lagging societies catch-up.
Don't fall into the trap of believing certain races of people will always produce more children, it's simply not true. One recent studied example is the people of Ireland. I'm of Irish heritage, I have 6 brothers/sisters. My parents were born in the 1930's. Large families were atypical of the Irish, again, survivability. As life has gotten much better for the Irish birth patterns have plummeted and very dramatically.
Please watch the TED Talk, it will ease your mind about our population situation. Everything will be fine (more so when we get that orange POS off the button)
  • + 3
 @deadtime: "Once these areas advance to our tech level"
I hope you're patient.
  • + 0
 @Boardlife69:
And when I'm done sucking down those grease-ball burgers do you know what I'm gonna do?
I'm gonna wipe my mouth with the American flag and toss those Styrofoam containers right out the side,
And you know why? Because we got the bombs, ok?
Two words, Nuclear f*ckin weapons ok?
  • + 1
 "The world is f*cked, and so am I. Maybe its other way round, I can't seem to decide." - 'Therapy?'
  • + 0
 @metaam: I could choose to be patient, or I could be proactive. I can praise people like Bill and Melinda Gates whose efforts to combat the spread of malaria in developing countries has made immediate measurable impact, increasing GDP of these troubled areas almost immediately. Or, I could be an idiot and subscribe to the ideas that are spread by scum like Rupert Murdoch whose only interests are the interests of big business. Murdoch/FOX instill fear and loathing to maintain a status quo. As long as the world population increases there will be the opportunity for business to grow. It isn't enough anymore to be healthy and secure (a humans default need). The new need (maybe) is to be better off than the other guy and more disturbingly, keep the people who are at the bottom in their position. This is exactly why FOX/Trump want to "build the wall". They want to ensure that there is a constant cheap sector of labor. Their stated goal of providing jobs for Americans is complete bullshit. This is also why the right is so set against "globalism" or "open borders". If there truly was equality big business would be the hardest hit. This is not how we make the world better. Why does FOX try to divide? Making the world better for ALL should be everyones goal.
  • + 2
 @deadtime: Why does every other MSM try to divide and instill fear? If youre getting your news from MSN, NBC, CBS, CNN, Huff, WaPo, NYT, Then you are being fed a line of bullshit, just as biased and self serving as FOX is.
  • - 7
flag markar (Nov 12, 2017 at 16:06) (Below Threshold)
 @deadtime: Hahaha you so crazy, Obama has screwed up the US, Almost everything he did needs reversing, He's an evil shemale with no balls, Fox reports actual facts not made up lies like CNN but that's what libtard Demorats do best, they declared war against conservative Republicans and will make up and do anything for revenge, hopefully after many Republican presidents the damage can be undone! Hahahahaha ????
  • - 2
 @markar: Whats so funny? FOX just Thursday said that the sexual assault that a judge from Alabama running for the Senate is accused of should be considered "consensual". Sorry, that's considered sexual child abuse in every single territory of the United States, maybe not Canada, I'm not sure. While FOX has not once denounced Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, or Eric Bolling, who were all removed for reports of sexual harassment or assault, and have paid out 10's of millions of dollars to silence the victims, they have spent 19 hours in 2 weeks making the sexual assaults of Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K., etc. the LEAD story of their telecasts. Who was it that broke the news of Harvey Weinsteins assaults? It was the NYT, the undisputed pinnacle of the so-called MSM. So, I guess by your logic if the MSM reported about Weinstein it must be untrue. Do you really see how complete of an idiot you are? Has FOX won one single Pulitzer? Do you even know what a Pulitzer is you simple snowflake? How can you be such an imbicile to not understand that the "MSM" will report about Weinstein (a very lucrative donor to the DNC) yet FOX will never mention that O'Reilly, Ailes, Bolling stand accused of the exact same behavior. I am sure that within your very simple mind you cant reconcile that a Democrat can and will criticize and condemn one of it's own, yet a Republican will never denounce one of their own until they have to. Let me ask you one simple question to confirm how much of an idiot you are: Do you believe the women who have accused Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein and any other liberal of sexual abuse and do you believe the women who have accused Trump, Judge Moore, Bill O'Reilly, Roger Ailes, Eric Bolling of the same? Should I finish my mesg with the same retarded "hahahaha"? Nah, I'm not a bitch.
  • - 3
 @deadtime: you suck bro. Dont private message me your liberal rants. piece of shit. Ill put my foot on your neck
  • + 0
 @deadtime: hahaha you're a moron
  • + 0
 @owlie: did he really! What a lunatic
  • + 0
 @MortifiedPenguin: Yep and it increases fuel mileage. I know a guy who has a 24 inch lift and 50 inch offroad tires on his Chevy 2500. Has a coal rolling diesel, gets 20mpg on the highway
  • + 1
 @markar: two. calling me a waste of life etc etc.
  • + 1
 @Chingus-Dude: 20mpg in a diesel truck is pretty good.
  • + 0
 @deadtime: you are a spoonfed liberal idiot. LOL. Stop believing and buying into all this crap you read.
  • - 2
 @hashtag-enduro: tell me where to get the correct information. You got an opinion, why don't you inform me or anyone who champions progressive ideals where we can get the truth. You wouldn't dare admit to where you get your information because it would reveal how stupid you are. let me guess who you thik is "good" news... RT? Breitbart? Al Jazeera?
C'mon, you don't expect me to believe FOX is unbiased. Where is the correct source of truth? I guarantee you answer with a pithy pitiful response.
  • + 0
 @deadtime: get it wherever you want, but dont think the bad guys have an agenda and your good guys dont.
They are feeding you a line of shit, and youre buying it. Its subtle, andf youy probably dont even notice it, but its in the way they word titles of stories, the content, Like instead of man gunned down in south chicago last night, its "Black man murdered by white cop"
  • + 1
 @hashtag-enduro: what you are doing is basically saying trust nothing and that is stupid. People must be on guard for agenda influenced information and the so-called MSM is actual news less influenced by agenda than something like a FOX or Breitbart or RT. If you cant agree to that than we know where you stand. There is zero equivalency to the so-called MSM and ANY right wing bullshit.
  • + 0
 @deadtime: Idiot. Cant believe you think MSM doesnt have an agenda.
Go play in traffic or something. Do you put Kool-Aid in your bladder? jeezus
  • + 2
 @deadtime: Im glad you know where I stand lol. No one is saying FOX isnt delivered without a payload, of course theyre biased. You seem to be so stupid you cant see that the others arent too. Seriously all of them. All your US news channels spill liberal garbage at every story. Tugging at your liberal heartstrings. It isnt news, its entertainment. Maddow, Maher, kimmel, that funny looking fella on CBS. They deliver the same message as MSN, CNN, and the rest. Youlll be better off when can filter the crap and make up your own mind. Best of Luck, progressive crusader. And please dont private message me a manifesto. kthxbye
  • + 3
 @hashtag-enduro: At least you know where you stand with UK media as none of it tries to be politically unbiased. Even the BBC which is possibly the most unbiased is slightly left (UK left).

Saying that the left right divide varies massively between countries. US Democrat policies are more in line with the Conservatives in the UK.
  • + 5
 It's insane how divided the US is on politics. The number of reasonable discussions you see between people with opposing views is astoundingly low, meanwhile the number of people who jump to calling each other cucks, libtards, idiots etc before they've even heard each other out is insane. Not helped by the fact that you guys get your news via completely different streams so you don't even get balanced view-points to begin with. You've got the blue team and the red team and a soon as you find out somebody isn't on your team it's time to start calling them names. So lame. I hope the UK doesn't follow the same way.
  • + 1
 @tom666: FWIW, you'd have to see how it works in Poland right now... to make it short I cut my Facebook "friends" number by at least 30 people since I can't look at this crap anymore. Sweden is much better, but well, it's not that much to worry about here. Like spotting a moose, nut allergies, recently Kiwis (fruits) are said to be "deadly"... some in US and Poland claim that Sweden is on the edge of getting Shariya law, but I haven't seen any signs of it coming...
  • + 3
 @owlie: Wha....? You didn't engage with my point but sort of, weirdly stepped around it and found Trump and Trek somehow. I liked it!
  • + 2
 "the planets his ours... destroy your cut!!"
  • + 2
 Dear @bankz: Europe does not import birth rates. Yes, there is migration to Europe, but the birth rate I stated is the average number of children a woman in Europe has. Irrespective of her roots. Birth rates in most African countries have also significantly reduced. Where those people then choose to migrate to is irrelevant to the birth rate. If you are talking about the population size in Europe then that is something else and not solely defined by birth rate, although that contributes. But so does death rate and the immigration/emigration ratio. The important part is that globally the ratio of births / deaths needs to get below 1, if you want to reduce the number of people on this planet. Where that happens is irrelevant to the question at hand.
  • + 1
 @tom666: unfortunately he died last year. What a loss. But we can’t walk around and think that our own individual choices are meaningless. We have to live by example and inform people. We have made massive strides, particularly in the last decade. So I am hopeful but we have to accept that change will cost and we have to believe that it is worth it. Just as much as we justify to pay more for a bike because we believe it is better, although the cheapest option would do a very similar job, we have to see that this is something we want to have and are willing to pay for it. E.g. healthy and clean air and a healthy environment.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I can't stand it when I hear people talk about Sweden as if it's being overrun buy Muslims. Have you been to Sweden lol? Probably the nicest, safest, cleanest and for the most part whitest country I've been to. I would say I don't know where these people get their facts - but I do it's Fox News lol
  • + 2
 Dear @BlindMan77: I will disregard the undertone your comment had and just tell you that you must have misunderstood the definition of birth rate. The number it gives is the average number of children per mother. This is not “born to white women” or “born to women livening longer than 2 generations in Europe” or what ever else you want to have. It is the average number of children per all women in Europe. Whether you are white, brown, yellow, black, purple, tall, one-legged, Christian, Juish, Hindu or Muslim etc. And that number is below 2 in Europe.
  • + 1
 @tom666: I live in Sweden and where did I write that it’s bad. I meant that some idiots claim that it is overrun by Jihadists. I mean... there are districts but they are way less sketchy than hooligan districts in Poland.
  • - 3
 @tom666: don't hate the truth dumbo accept it, gangs of muslim men have been raping women like crazy, it's a fact, you don't understand muslims or Islamic law
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: also though I somewhat agree, what would be a meaningful contribution for you? I’m not being a dick, but what would be good enough. I personally have no car, made business decisions to minimise long hall flights, try to eat as little meat as possible and fix and use my clothes as long as possible. With the few other choices I have made, I hope I do try to also inform people. I don’t know all the answers or the best choices, but I am willing to learn. Just yesterday I spoke to someone in finance that we should introduce stock portfolios that favour environmentally friendly companies so that they get a boost and can develop their businesses/products better. People who want to support these companies can invest in them. I think it is a good idea. Change will be a progress and we need to invest in this and start penalising those that don’t.
  • + 2
 @markar: is this verified or just something you would like to be true? Asking for a friend.
  • - 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Just wait until all the children of the muslims start voting then you will see shariya law. This is the goal and sole purpose of every single muslim. If they tell you otherwise then they are either lying or are a hieretic to Islam.
  • + 2
 @mitochris: my contribution? None. Zero. I don't eat meat all the time because I'm afraid of getting too much toxins, but I do eat meat and diary because I don't want to shag my brain out to get enough of varied protein considering that I train a lot for most of the year. I don't buy these veggie arguments. I buy ecologic food for pure egoistic reasons, to minimize amount of toxic stuff getting into me. And not all eco food is actually eco. Lots of it takes more energy to make than non eco food. I try to eat locally grown food instead of stuff imported from far away. Why? Because stuff like apple has more vitamins than some fruit from Brazil. I bike to work instead of driving a car. Why? Egoism, convenience. It takes me 15 minutes by bike, 30 by bus and 40 by car to get to work. I skip caughing people in busses and finding a parking spot with car. With good clothing, the weather is not a problem. I live in a block of flats instead of single family house - why? Because I have better access to schools, everything is closer, and I don't need to fk with the garden, elevations and roof - so pure lazyness here. I don't own a car - why? lazyness and saving money. I drive a lot though. Sunfleet Carsharing FTW! I will have to buy a car soon though... won't be electric. But it will be a nice locally produced Volvo V70 Big Grin I don't fly on holidays often - why? All money spent on bikes and my kids are monsters. No way to sit with them in a plane for longer than 2 hours. Again lazyness... I ride my bike to the woods. Oh well, it's close and packing/unpacking a bike on a car/from a car takes up to 20 minutes. I may as well ride to the woods and use it as a warm up. I don't ride to bike parks often - not out of choice though... I don't have an e-bike, can I get a medal? ummm no. Oh, and 90% of clothing in my house is second hand. Why? ehm, cheap? Lots of bike parts on my bikes are used, bought on happymtb FTW! Cheap! I eat out on lunches for the most of time. I may eat lots of non eco food this way, BUT it's definitely more sustainable than cooking at home.

What am I getting at? Sometimes "eco" solutions are simply convenient... in Europe - most of the time. And so it is for many people. But some of them just love to have their dick sucked or pussy eaten because they are so "sustainable". I hate those entitled hippies and hipsters. Now they are buying transport bicycles. Soooooo ethical. I see so many fkrs on cycle paths everyday, who look as if they were expecting to get a Peace Nobel prize... and now state subsidizes e-bikes... it's insane...

So I think most people act in convenience in mind, but they love to present it as a some sort of sacrifice and want credit for it.
  • + 1
 @makkman: you are sharing some stupid ideas. Most of the kids of Muslims will not be Muslims as soon as they leave their homes. They assimilate into pop culture very effectively. Kids are not stupid and are not easy to get signed under ideology which has little power over them. The dangerous minds are often teenage boys, and by average they will always chose booze and pussy over some man in the sky. And in Europe you are less worried about your father chopping your head of for not praying to Allah. Especially in Sweden where you can report your parents for domestic violence rather easily. I personally saw a girl who took off he Hijab to swim in the lake with her school friends including the boys. I could see her sitting on the beach anxious. She finally took of her clothes and jumped into the water in her underwear. Was she chopped into pieces after a friend reported her to her father? I don't think so... theistic religions are dying. And Muslim fundamentalists are just accelerating the process. We have a Syrian dude at our office. It took him one year in Sweden to become an atheist... he is quite outspoken about how he hates religion and those a*sholes from Isis. We had a vernisage last friday where everyone in the office could present the stuff they are painting/sculpting in their free time. And we were joking with the Syrian dude that next time we will draw Mohammed. Stupid part of religious beliefs stands no chance against the melting pot of modern cities. The violence is most often a result of poverty, and I don't care whether someone wants to kill me in the name of Allah, his football club or to get my belongings... the orthodox muslim values stand against freedom of speech, child rights and women rights. And Swedish Hipsters will not stand for that if someone will like to impose it on them. So no Shariya law as an actual law has no chances in Europe. You'll sooner have nazis ruling again than muslims. Now that's something to worry about.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: it’s partly what I mean. We have to make sustainability he more attractive thing. If a car would cost nothing and you would have 7 lane roads and free parking , you would use your car to go to work. But it isn’t convenient. If that’s what it takes it’s fine by me. Oh, and local is not necessarily more sustainable. If grown in a greenhouse it might not be such an environmentally friendly solution. We have to make sustainability something desirable. For what ever reason.
  • + 2
 Enough already, ho-ly-shyt - dashboard notifications for days with all you clowns talking shit about absolutely nothing. Move on to the next article. Claim this as a click bait victory for PB, theyre getting serious engagement clicks over nothing.
  • + 2
 @NYShred: Mah ha ha ha, you can never escape... you are at the mercy of others...

As a side note i'm finding the discussion interesting as have been to Sweden regularly over the last 16 years and lived there for 6 months a few years ago. Whilst it's not a perfect country it is a heap better than most and at least it is trying to do its part in re-homing refugees which a lot of countries (UK) included aren't. Also Sweden is a lot more environmentally aware than most.
  • + 1
 @JesseE:
Quote from Wikipedia :
The practice of rolling coal has not spread enough to justify legislation outside of the United States.
  • + 2
 @makkman and @markar: that's a pretty good job the two of you are doing spreading fear and disinformation...do you do that often? Just wondering how far the two are from St. Petersburg. Feeding from the trough at one of your Master's troll farms, perhaps?
  • + 0
 @mitochris: have you heard of BBC news? Just Google duh!!
  • - 2
 @owlie: you're a brainwashed libturd goof, but that's ok, it's not your fault
  • + 1
 @markar: pretty sure @owlie is at the other end of libturd.
more like 2nd ammendment mike
  • + 1
 @hashtag-enduro: this thread reminds of the Canyon coming to US thread that turned into a Trump/Clinton shitstorm lol
  • + 1
 @bohns1: Its already begun to happen. Take a look at China and Japan's population distribution and you'll see its an inverse pyramid. The size of younger generations is shrinking.
  • + 1
 Too bad pulling a Hitler card doesn’t work anymore for stoppping discussions...
  • + 1
 @rookie100: 25 is a good age for recycling humans, obviously those older than that now are exempt, no retrospective laws for me
  • + 3
 @qualda: 25 is for many where opinions meet reality... but if you are 40 and still a team playing idiot with no notion of understanding of duality of actions, you can be made into a battery. I prefer a lazy 40 year pot head than an entitled a*shole subscribed to a particular system and looking for people to hate
  • + 2
 @mitochris: I agree with you brother. Often Capitalism doesn't favour the environmentally-friendly solution. It's much easier to just dump trash in landfill than pick through it and find things to recycle and get them to the right place. Much easier/cheaper/more reliable to keep using the coal/oil/gas power plants we already have than try to use solar panels that don't work at night and work better some days than others. Much easier for most people to drive somewhere than to walk or cycle or take a train (depends where you live I guess). Much easier to keep eating the food you know and love than to go vegetarian and search for locally produced food. Easier to buy whatever clothes you want than look for locally produced/organic/fairtrade stuff. For that reason we should make these things more viable. Subsidise public transport and tax highly polluting vehicles. Encourage people to put solar panels on their home. Reward people for recycling somehow. Markets should have a sustainability rating for each company listed so people can choose to invest in environmentally responsible companies (and hopefully it will make those companies with a poor score want to up theirs to attract more investment) etc etc. There's loads more we could be doing.
  • + 2
 @NYShred: holy crap! same thing I said to myself this morning...
  • + 0
 @tom666: nothing to you personally or to your comment but those claims like “capitalism doesn’t favor environmentalism”, only a completely deluded green leftie could say that. Most governments on the planet act in ways that submit to all sorts of ideologies, for most of the time they act like capitalists but there’s plenty of socialist properties in them too. There is no clear ivizion between one ad the other. And now, I’d love to see the record of how socialist and communist countries dealt with the environment. Capitalist this, capitalist that, oh get fkd already
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Is the problem not that government and capitalism is blurred? Corporate law ensures a company does what it can to maximise shareholder profits, we all know that to some companies that means literally anything they can get away with - Dumping crap into rivers, fiddling emissions tests, aggressive lobbying, paid propaganda and biased scientific reports.

We need governments to do exactly that, govern, in a sensible manner, so prevent corruption and environmental ruin. When the lines blurr we get a pot full of piss e.g. Trump rowing back on lots of common sense environmental legislation to further business profit his and his parties friends. Much like Teresa May being married to a man that helps construct tax efficiencies or others in government who are close to large consulting and service providers.

But be fair Waki - the defenition of capitalism cannot 'favour' environmentalism as that can only hinder potential growth.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm not anti-capitalist or really a lefty. I'm centrist on most issues. I just think that we need to acknowledge that there are issues with the profit-driven structure we work under. Often whats best for profit and what's best for the environment are in direct conflict. I don't see how that could be denied.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Very fair point - governments seem to vary little in their engagement with looking after the environment. Although, what about consumer capitalism which would surely apply to mountain bikers - the demands of consumers being manipulated in order to further the sellers interest and relying on quick turnover of bikes, parts etc together with a sense of identity given to the individual who consumes? It's not a stretch to say that many governments rely at least a great deal on that brand of capitalism is it?
  • + 2
 @jimmyconnors: There is very little difference between how styles of government deal with environmental issues because there is very little actual difference between governments in reality - all of them are owned and funded by corporations.

Capitalism in many ways is government.
  • + 0
 @Racer951: The answer to everything is education. We are educating ourselves what to put into our bodies for them to feel well, we take sick leave in case of a broken arm. Then we take a lot of interest in mental sickness, depression in particular. But I think people seem to pay litle attention to psychology of everyday life. Many accuse me of overthinking. Really? Oh well that's your problem, don't worry about me.

So with all due respect I can't exactly put too much blame on the consumerism (gladly removing "capitalist" from your term), yes the best people in the business work on making is hungry of new toys. And so what? it's our freaking responsibilty to educate ourselves to be aware of those mechanisms in our heads, of our short sighting reward systems and act selectively or not respond at all.

As to your last sentence: that seems as utopian to me as the very ideology of capitalism. No individual executes capitalistic ideas deep to the bone. Systems like corporations do. But you can definintely put sand into people's vaginas by acting in a shitty way. And then ultimately you can use environmentalism as a PR move to increase sales. An that happens since a long time. 1% for rain forest, fair trade and many other labels are examples of that.
  • + 1
 @markar: that flag next to my name is not for show. I can guarantee. You are talking out of your ass.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: not sure if you're replying to me - seems so from what you wrote.
I think you're wrong to remove capitalism from consumerism. I meant them to be conjoined. My biggest problem with consumer capitalism, like turbo capitalism, isn't the promise of it not being delivered (it's utopian promise of the rising tide taking all the rest with it which has not happened - much like the utopian promise of socialism hasn't happened), it's that it makes us think of all our dealings with the world as transactions, as things to be consumed. This by implication removes to some extent our ability to educate ourselves, our independence of thought. So, yep, I'd certainly apportion some blame to the ideology of consumer capitalism and capitalism in general. It makes us wonder, what can I get out of this transaction? For example, what do I get if I transact my ethics for this carbon fibre bicycle?
  • - 1
 @kabanosipyvo: I spread only the facts dude obviously ones you can't handle! I always drop it like it's hot ????
  • + 2
 @Boardlife69: a 50 year old car that is still running even that one you suggest, i would hazard a guess that it has less impact on the planet than 5 modern day cars that only last circa 10 years!
  • + 1
 also, people are fucked up...look at the stupid shit we do to each other...less humans, more animals.
  • + 1
 @twellsie: huh? You have to be joking... have you stood next to a modern diesel car that has engine on for 2 minutes or more? Like some idiots do in winter? Well, please do that, then imagine it being twice as bad due to no handling of exhaust what so ever, then imagine hundreds of thousands of those driving around city centers where people live , sleep and work, where their children play, where people jog, and come back to me with your luddite opinion Wink
  • + 1
 @ledude: we are animals...
  • + 1
 @scary1: what? Overlords? Dafuq u on about?
  • + 2
 @NYShred: Aston gives all the info to answer the poll correctly in the third sentence of the third paragraph, but number two is by far the least numerous answer. Yet people are so confused they can't even virtue signify and provoke Waki's--who barring his spawn appears to be something of an antidote to unthinking consumption--justifiable ire? I'll linger here, thanks.
  • + 0
 @ceecee: What a post. Yet the beauty of your writing fades in comparison to the philosophical value of the first sentence. It's almost Orwellian. "A correct answer to the poll"... brilliant. You caught the spirit of it all for me.

I felt as if the void stared at all of us and gently brushed our hair. Like a mother does to her beloved sons... Kane and Abel... as they fall asleep: "my little children... who believe in existence of free will... hushhhhh, hushhhhh, who hate in the name of goodness, who make murder into an act of mercy... the closer they get to their ideals, the more suffering they bring... but after all they raise a tyrant in hope he will bring them freedom and tell the truth... about everything... because thinking is too much of a sacrifice to make... the terror of finding the truth yourself... that the final room of the journey is empty... and there's a cloaked figure sitting with it's back turned against you as you walk in... you come around... and it lifts the cloak... and it has your face... and it's hands are red from blood of your little brother.... hushhhh, hushhhh.... twinkle... twinkle... little star - how I wonder what you are... there's a room where the light won't find you, holding hands when the walls come tumbling down, hushhhh husshhhh, when you do I'll be right behind you, hushhhh hushhh... so glad we almost made it, so sad they had to fade it... Everybody wants to rule the world..."
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Your fears almost brought me to tears
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: some of us are more primitive than others...but yes...we're still a bunch of primates (without as much hair).
  • + 1
 @carym: Dude. Wake up. Look where the growth is.....not in the West. Europe in particular has a negative growth rate and the US is close behind. So, what is the answer? Forced sterilization in the third world? Nope. Let capitalism continue to find a way; it has always worked and will continue to deliver. Have confidence, ride hard, help where you believe you can, enjoy a glass of wine, treasure those around you, resist the socialist alarmists, and do the right thing every day. Peace.
  • + 1
 amen dude
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: i think you are missing the point, you are aware that the harmful emissions created manufacturing all the parts/raw material/shipping etc that make a car are far higher than the emissions the car will emit over their total lifetime?

for example, i have flown on approximately 90 flights to source 1 fuel tank, imagine how much travel is required to source every single part of a car
  • + 95
 I am a hypocrite, I have an Environmental degree and try to reduce my consumption as much as possible, but..... I work for big oil. Why you might ask; 1) salaries are way higher.. 2) I feel like I am doing the change from within thing... Before everyone chimes in with hate for the petroleum industry, I will ask what is the computer or mobile device you are using made from? Did you drive to work or fly somewhere lately? Was your food shipped from some other continent? Etc. Etc. Most people talk the talk, very few of us walk the walk though.
  • + 24
 Great comment. In my mind, the sustainability conversation needs to include pragmatism and the big picture. Seems like too many people these days want that warm and fuzzy feeling of doing something good, but have zero consideration for the reality of where the modern luxuries we have come from.
  • + 30
 It's easy to hate the oil industry from the comfort of your ipad in your natural gas heated home.
  • + 6
 My main issue is that most petroleum and coal companies don't even try to be compliant with EPA standards set forth. They can buy their way out of it. Used to be the same way in construction, but has slowly gotten better.
  • + 11
 @atrokz: natural gas is a renewable resource... someone who works in natural gas industry actually said that to me. Ya renewable in millions of years ya twat.
  • + 6
 I don't think it's hypocritical to consume, or produce oil. I dislike spending money just as much as I dislike pollution, but I spend a little bit of money every day, and when it's new bike time I spend a lot. If the things I really care about have an environmental cost, that's ok. With my set of environmental and economic preferences, I wear my clothes until they are ragged, but replace my bikes when they are still basically new.

It's the things that have a lot of impact, but we don't even really enjoy that we should be concerned about. Like at McDonalds, everything tastes like garbage, so why eat a burger? A crappy chicken sandwich has a lot less impact than a crappy burger. Those kinds of choices, where the impact on the environment is disproportionate to the benefit we get are where we should focus before we feel guilty about our bikes.
  • + 0
 Good comment -- curious what you think the best alternative to petroleum would be? I've always thought some hybrid system powered by biodiesel/diesel/natural gas would be incredibly practical and as close to a closed loop energy system as possible. If we got a large percentage of our fuel from harvested biodiesel, wouldn't there be close to a net zero carbon footprint in that growing the crops to produce the fuel would scrub the majority of co2 put out by burning the fuel? Also, this would be a much smoother transition than trying to convert the entire human race to electric vehicles...
  • + 15
 This is always the argument oil people use; "yea but your car is made from and uses oil." Do you want to drive or care for the planet? The two things are not mutually exclusive. I also have an environmental degree, I have also worked in the oil industry. People can care for the environment and still drive, because its the only option they have. Of course people would choose greener options if they were cheaper/performed the same as "petroleum products." What I would like to see is what oil we have left be allocated in a much greater percentage to development of sustainable product production methods. Yes my laptop was produced by oil, but that doesn't mean I am not cognisant of that and I don't want another option. For many people in this economy, you can't make them choose between a green product and a roof over their head. But like I said, I worked in the oil industry and it is just set up so poorly. Very few common people really benefit from the vast amount of wealth it creates for the people that run the industry which is a relatively small group.
  • - 1
 @slickwilly1 This is the exact rationale all of my oil industry friends use. This is a cough-out and a poor attempt to rationalize you're just a sell out with weak personal morals incapable of doing what you have already determined is right. I'm sure you're an intelligent individual, but it's sad to see this as the predominant frame of mind (here in america).
  • - 1
 Change from within..? It seems denail isn't just a river running through Eygpt
  • + 8
 @leftCoastBurn: Unfortunately palm oil is the worst thing that ever happened to the rainforests....
  • + 2
 @kipvr: why does it have to be palm oil?
  • + 2
 @leftCoastBurn: Growing crops for the sole purpose of fuelling ICE is a bad idea. Less food supply being one of them.
You're hybrid idea is actually pretty f*cking stupid. Solar and wind coming on strong. Hydroelectric will still be there. Conventional methods like gas turbines and diesel generators will be used for standby/emergency.
_________________
People can make changes to their energy consumption but many don't. Look at the single vehicle occupancy rate in the GVRD area and S2S. I'm guilty of this myself.
  • + 9
 I cycle to work and the food I eat comes from the same place I live, Bavaria. I hike in the same mountains where the cheese and milk I buy is produced. Like most people living in Munich I work for a carbon neutral company. My Ikea furniture was produced exclusively in Europe. Avoiding pollution isn't easy but please don't make it out to sound impossible Smile
  • + 2
 1. Electric is lit (usually literally) 2. Oil is really pretty clean, but at this point it's easily feasible to convert to renewables in almost any application 3. If you have enough money to buy a fancy bike, you have enough money to reduce your impact in other ways (and if the bike is most environmentally influential thing you have then you aren't really a problem) 4. Burning things is so 18th century
  • + 2
 There is enough plastic on earth at this point to recycle to make all the computers, ski boots, food containers etc. for a looong time. We don’t need new oil for these items. As the price of gas goes up more people will ditch their gasoline powered vehicles and hopefully the oil industry will shrink.
  • + 4
 The question is not whether one uses fossil fuels but what is the most sustainable way one can use them. Food production and sustainable energy production should come before the Airforce or do we gotta defend said food etc.
  • + 3
 I feel very much the same way. I work in automotive engine development, Diesel to be precise. Our industry's reputation has taken a huge hit, but I still like working there because I can help make it better.
  • + 2
 @kipvr: agree, working for an exhaust gas catalyst and filter company I was shocked to see a contract for a big power plant in China with palm oil as fuel.
  • + 1
 "If you really gave a shit you live in a cave, naked. Eating leaves an berries "
I can't remember who
  • - 3
 @tttyyler: You had me, then you lost me with the McDonalds thing. Don't eat it cause it's terrible for you, not because it has an environmental impact.
  • + 1
 @Loamhuck: You know me so well, I am a sell out, but at least my kids have food on the table,
  • + 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: These companies make the laws. For example... the Telecommunication Act of 1996, section 704.
  • + 0
 Yup, 'cause batteries are the solution to everything.
  • + 0
 @woody13fox: Better than burning carbon for green house gas emissions.
  • + 2
 I have a degree in Environmental Science. A year after I graduated, I went back for Mechanical Engineering, because I realized the only solutions were technical. People will not accept a lower standard of living or draconian population control measures. I can effect more sweeping, lasting change by developing tech from the inside. I drive 50 miles a day currently, but the fuel saved by making airplanes more efficient will dwarf my personal fuel consumption for ground transit.
  • + 2
 Environmental Biology degree here. I now manage the environmental compliance program of a billion dollar manufacturing facility. I ensure we have robust programs that exceed the compliance limits set for air emissions, waste water, and stormwater programs, while minimizing and ensuring the proper disposal of hazardous waste. We have a rapidly developing recycling program that diverts over 60% of our waste from the landfill. There are absolutely ways to make a difference from within.

I feel my net impact on the earth due to my line of work is positive....therefore I ride a carbon bike.
  • + 2
 @dualsuspensiondave: To play devils advocate, the EPA is an organization of people who hate petroleum regulating petroleum. Now I understand that a two sentence Pinkbike comment can't encapsulate the entire picture, with lots of shady shit on both sides, but this is roughly the equivalent of MTBers not agreeing with trail regulations set forth by the Equestrians Association of America.
  • + 2
 @gonecoastal: I agree. I have serious moral reservations about burning food in my truck so I can pat myself on the back when there are people starving in the world.

I am also very aware that it's not food output, but massive bureaucracy, corruption, and transportation/infrastructure limitations that keep many people hungry
  • + 1
 @CaptainBLT: what aerospace firm are you working for?
  • + 1
 @atrokz: Not too hard to figure out with a little sleuthing, but I'd prefer not to overtly link my pinkbike profile (and post history full of personal opinions) directly to my employer.
  • + 1
 @bikerpimp11:Thank you! I've not seen it put quite so simply yet so truthfully.
  • + 2
 @CaptainBLT: fair enough. there's like a billion aerospace firms out that way so I'll save my time. Been in it for 12 years now.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: electric cars still get charged by the wall. And the wall gets its juice from coal burning
  • + 1
 @owlie: Not in my province. We are coal free.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: So it must be hydro. Cuz you sure dont have enough sun up there to drive households 100%
  • + 1
 @owlie: we are roughly 60% nuclear, 20% hydro electric, 10% natural gas , 10% renewables.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: well try and pitch the nuclear option here! My good friend is a buyer and seller for the Electricity company here, and he says theres no way solar alone can support our needs. He thinks Nuclear is the only option short of fossil fuels. But nuclear brings a whole apocalyptic vision to voters.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: You province is also employing renewable/sustainable generation in what is likely the least sustainable, and least affordable fashion, perhaps in the world. The Ontario government are a bunch of fools.
  • + 1
 @FLATLlNE: they have definitley made some costly mistakes but we are hardly the least affordable in the world. We arent even the least affordable province. Yes, our rates arent cheap but we can be proud in the fact that we dont burn coal.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: I didn't say Ontario was the least affordable overall pricing. I said Ontario has employed a model for paying for renewables that is not sustainable or affordable. It's the biggest reason electricity prices have gotten out of hand in the province, and now they have started mucking with cross subsidisation from tax base revenues and drawing out longer debts to burry/disguise/hide/offset the original tomfoolery.

Ontario pays 80 cent per kWh to green energy producers. That cost is passed on to the end consumer. It's reflected in the global adjustment balance.

FYI, 80 cent per kWh is some expensive energy my friend.
  • + 1
 @FLATLlNE: 100% the cost for our energy is so bloated due to mismanagement of both the energy file and the green energy file. I was up front and personal when this was happening, it was a scam full stop. Both you and @inverted180 can feel free to PM me rgarding the specifics of this and why it was a scam. Hydro One low density customers DO pay the highest rates in North America, including Hawaii (comparable to our med density customers), a f*cking island in the middle of the ocean. We didn't need to do this, we had two nuclear reactors dumping energy to QC and USA because we couldn't use it all, and the grid couldn't handle it. So we bought hundreds of windmills at their most expensive (technology gets cheaper, we bought windmills that are nearing their R&O scheduled when they haven't even contributed to the grid in reality yet) and before a grid was even in place to accept them. Just as an aside, the windmill at the CNE? we PAY to turn that so it gives the illusion of toronto being green. we PAY for it. This is how our joke of a province runs our energy file. We aren't green, we are a scam.
  • + 1
 @inverted180 turns out I know @FLATLlNE ! haha. He is very, very well versed on this topic. I won't say anymore......
  • + 1
 @atrokz: @Flatline Agree the liberals have mismanaged power in Ontario. From subsidizing green energy to ridiculous levels (crony capitalism/government) to ramping up production and having to sell excess at a loss.

Still when you look at the data things are not as bad as people are claiming. For instance my hydro bill was $116 last month for a family of four in a house over 3000sqft. My cell phone bill alone is almost that much.

As for low density customers paying the most in North America. The only place I could find that information is a blog with no references. In fact if anything med and high density customers should be pissed that they are now subsidizing low density customers with $60 off their delivery charge.

This whole thing has gotten over politicized.... we get it, they havent done the best job but it's not nearly as bad as some would like us to believe.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: it's pretty bad man. In my industry I know jobs are leaving due to the higher costs (aerospace) to manufacture in this province. Flatline has the actual numbers, it's his wheelhouse. I'd trust his info over anyone.

The issue I have, is we didn't do anything actually 'green', and we spent a few billion in that process.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: last month was a shoulder month - it should be one of the lowest bills of your year. Heating degree days and cooling degree says we're minimal.

Do you have electric heat? Natural gas? Oil? Out of curiosity? And what was your highest bill in the summer? And highest in the winter?

Fyi, I am in the Electricity Biz. Have been for well over a decade. Accounting background, mixed in finance/rates/regulation. In a past life I actively completed many electricity rate and cost surveys, cross Canada.

As for subsidies. Yeah - high density subsidise low density. Business also subsidse residential in most cases. And high income subsidse low income - once via electricity bill, now via taxes. Cross subsidies are a normal thing in this business, but we try to minimize them as best we can for fair costing, but total eliminations is impossible. You want worse example - look to Newfoundland and their diesel generation isolated communities!

Anyway, before going off on further tangent. I think the renewable energy stuff was done with very little foresight. Is it as bad as politicized? Yeah, I think so. It's the main reason costs have risen I'm recent years. It's the reason for the fair hydro plan, and none of these bill reductions for lower income folks that we all have to pay for would have come to creation of things were managed more sensibly.

This past month (October) most utilities likely saw global adjustment costs that amounted to over 10x the actual commitidy cost! 10x!!!!!!! And the lion share of that is for renewables....which overall is as you quoted, 10% of our load! And the most useless of all load for planning purposes!!!

I'm going to say....with a better and more timely green energy plan, your $160 bill would have been closer to $100...roughly. Maybe lower.

It's cool if you want afford that. But not everyone is as fortune; dispatching renewables as they have been, have made life a lot harder for those on the fringes of poverty, and lined the pockets of others.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: oh. let's not forget the billions we'll spend for the renegotiated debts in the "fair hydro plan"!
More cross subsidisation, spanning present and future. We'll just hot-tub-time-machine our pricing issues into the future!
  • + 1
 @FLATLlNE: "Anyway, before going off on further tangent. I think the renewable energy stuff was done with very little foresight". That statement is about all I will agree with you on.

My bill was $116 last month. Gas heat and stove, electric air cond. My bill never quite reached $160 in the summer months.

Are they pushing costs down the line. Yup, just like previous governments. I dont agree with the green energy act terms, renegotiated dept or the sale of H1. BUT I will still stick with my statement that it is being overly politicized.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: Sorry, I read $160 - my eyes are getting tired =). Same math applies to the $116 - you can extrapolate the impact on the back of an envelope is you wish.

Agree or disagree, it makes no difference - all the rate information is posted monthly, on the IESO website. It's all mater of public record. Renewables are the lion share of GA, which in a month like this month (shoulder season) is the lion share of your total bill - 80% of this months power costs, we'll say for order of magnitude. This 10% of load has had a huge impact on costs and affordability of electricity in Ontario. In a peak month, when market prices for commodity are high, GA is still close to half the cost of energy purchases. This is fact.

Renewables have been employed in an unsustainable and affordable fashion. I stick to my well informed and well educated and direct experience based opinion and original point. It's fact, that they have had a material, and unfavorable impact on electricity costs in the province. You're well within your right to disagree sure, but I'm not here pissing on your back and telling you it's raining - I have the numbers literally printed right next to me. You seem like a smart guy and I can respect your opinion on politicizing of the issue, however - but that's a very objective thing. You might feel differently if you were unable to pay your bill.
  • + 1
 @inverted180: and by objective, I mean subjective. Lol
  • + 40
 Ha "Global health is a concern of mine, but I don't consider it when buying shiny new bike stuff".
I'm terribly concerned about sustainability unless it effects me at all. The most hypocritical thing I have ever read.
  • + 4
 Pretty much...I don't understand how anyone is not voting for the last option.
  • + 28
 And yet it will probably be the most chosen answer if people, myself included, are honest.
  • + 3
 Yet, it's got 46% out of 105 responses as I write this
  • + 1
 Like to reduce your carbon footprint.
  • + 7
 the answer says "a concern", not "terribly concerned". I think we can all relate to that answer. of course global health is a concern, but like any decision we make there is always a cost/benefit. for many of us, the benefit of having _______, although not the most environmentally friendly option, is worth the risk of causing or adding to _______.
  • + 2
 @dtrotter: So it's a concern that doesn't affect your decision at all? That sounds like it's not a concern at all.
  • + 22
 @employee7 I, and many others chose this answer because it is easy to realize that the bike purchases we make have some of the smallest impact on the environment of any of our life choices. The scientific consensus is that right now greenhouse gas emissions are the largest threat to global health (read the survival of the human race), this means that a choice like buying a Subaru Outback over a Toyota Tacoma or eating a chicken instead of a cow has a much larger impact on "global health" than choosing an alloy bike over carbon fiber or any other purchasing decision you can make when it comes to bicycles.

I myself generally only buy bikes second hand and ride them as long as possible but that is more of a financial choice than environmental. I also am not afraid to admit that I am a hypocrite since I love a good burger but hey, at least I drive an Outback and recycle. Smile
  • + 2
 @MikeyMT: because it's a total cop-out. It basically says "I differ until I have all the evidence or I can tell for sure" it's the common response for polarized politicians when faced with *very* strong evidence contrary to their beliefs.
  • + 22
 @employee7 So are you riding your bike to the trailhead every ride? Are you sourcing plant-based suspension oil, hub grease, degreaser, etc? Are you using 'green' brake fluid? Do you run the hardest compound, longest-lasting tires available? Do you mix your own vegetable-derived tubeless fluid? Do you recycle and repurpose all your old tires, chains, cassettes, etc? If not, it sounds like you're "concerned about sustainability unless it effects you at all".

I chose option 3 (and 4), because honestly, we all know mountain biking is a bit of a frivolous consumerist activity, and there's no way around using lubes, disposable wear items, etc that I'm sure are all pretty energy-intensive, so it's a bit of a joke to act all green about being a mtber.

Do I use biodegradable chain lube? Sure, but I also take mtb road trips and drive to the trailheads cuz they're all >10 miles away. I also change the oils, o-rings, brake fluid, etc on my bike regularly too, and all that shit goes in the trash. Again, this is all comes with the territory of riding mtbs, but none of it is really "green", so #3 seems completely appropriate.

If it's really important to you to have a "green" hobby, take up jogging, road riding, or gardening. Most of us probably put more miles on our cars driving to riding destinations than we actually put on our bikes. The best we can do is just not be wasteful, IMO. Don't buy new shit all the time, run your gear as long as you can. Buy whatever you want, whether it's carbon, alu, steel, whatever, just make it last.

So anyway, #3 seems appropriate for most of us, IMO. If we're honest with ourselves it's kinda hard to act like mtb is somehow doing great things for the planet, but that doesn't stop us. We just try not to be excessively harmful.
  • - 1
 @bkm303: I chose 1 because I am intellectually honest. It's not important to me at all whether one chain ring has a larger impact than another. I think if we were all more honest with ourselves we would realize the question of sustainability has zero effect on our bike purchasing decisions (and this is reflected through sales). I will shorten up the answers for everyone

Honest
Liar
Hypocrite
Too dumb to use Google
  • + 3
 @hardcore-hardtail: That's my take as well. Routing my dollars to the purchase of a carbon vs aluminum vs boutique steel frame has next-to-zero global impact aside from personal Prius smugness factor. Heck even the choice of car to drive (electric, 4-banger, or gas hogging SUV) has little individual effect compared to what carbon-based fuel is being used to fire up a power plant. Choosing bio degreaser or cleaners vs yuckier chemicals to my thinking has a greater effect, even though the volumes are so much smaller, because stuff like that immediately enters the waste stream and the woods and river crossings you might ride through.
  • + 4
 @employee7: My point is, you gotta consume resources to ride mtb, no way around that. But the less you consume the "greener" it is - so the only meaningful decision you can make is just to not be wasteful.

I don't think any one chainring is greener than the other, or that carbon vs aluminum vs steel has any meaningful impact on the planet in the long run. But buying a new bike every 2 years has 5x the impact of buying a new bike every 10 years. Buying soft compound tires that only last a few months is obviously less sustainable than buying hard compound tires that last more than a year. Fixing your broken gear is more sustainable that tossing it and buying new shit.

How much does it matter in the long run? Who knows. I'm not calling SRAM and Shimano trying to figure out whose derailleur is better for the planet - if I need it, I need it. I just try not to buy stuff I don't need. So #1 isn't really true for me - I do consider the consequences of my purchases somewhat. I just don't believe one frame/chainring/whatever makes a difference over another.
  • + 3
 Well they were missing the option that reads- "I look at the shiny new stuff and ask myself is it really going to make me happier out there riding or can I get by on what I have already. If I choose to buy new shiny stuff (rarely) then I am just going to buy it and ask myself the same question again in three years time without considering the environmental impact but also sell my older stuff to someone who can use it".
  • + 5
 @employee7: "Too dumb to use Google"! I suppose, technically, all the information is there. Is the expertise and critical thinking required to wade through all the bullshit there too? Thanks for your honesty. No thanks for the condescension.
  • + 0
 @arnie86: That's the one!
  • - 1
 @bkm303: Damn! Love new bike day every two seasons!
  • + 0
 @bohns1: ^^^ this guy's trying to kill the planet. You guys believe that shit???
  • - 1
 @bkm303: Hey man! The pros get them more than that..
  • + 1
 Spending extra money to get more environment friendly bike things is less efficient than spending it on a environmental charity thing. It's not that I don't care, I just take the more efficient route. Which coincides with not worrying about biking's affect.
  • + 2
 @bkm303: I don't agree with the tyre argument. In this way you can simply say: just ride less. Maybe getting more enjoyment out of riding grippy tyres makes you less depressed and depression is known for making people buy lots of stuff.

Then the derailleurs: have you ever paid attention to how huge boxes those things come in? A little shifter comes in a box that could additionally store cassette, rear derailleur, cables and some more. That with a giant instruction, that nobody will ever read. And there are hundreds of thousands of these boxes if not millions. I just bought a dirt frame, handlebar, grips, headset and chain tugs. Nearly each component came in a seperate package, only chain tugs came in a letter envelope. Box with grips and handlebar was almost as big as the box with the frame, and box with the headset could store a crankset
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: not saying people can't buy/ride whatever tires they want. The soft compound ones are pretty amazing, but you'll put 3x as much rubber in the trash for the same amount of riding. If grippy tires are the difference between riding and not riding, do what you want. But I could make your same argument about anything - "buying new [whatever] frequently makes me ride more, and keeps me from buying other stuff". That's just using consumerism to fight consumerism (I'm not totally innocent of this either, FWIW).

The packaging is ridiculous, but all the mfrs do it so it's tough to buy parts without it (aside from used, or some of those direct from Taiwan deals on eBay, but they take like 4 weeks to ship). But again, the best way to avoid it is to buy derailleurs (or whatever) as infrequently as you can - do maintenance, repair stuff that's broken, etc. Like I said, some consumerism cones with the territory but the less you buy, the less impact you have.
  • + 2
 @bkm303: Keeping it real. Being cognizant of what you doing even if somewhat net-negative is more positive than blindly go about things.
  • + 3
 @bkm303: how about how all new US-bound bikes are required to be sold with a full set of reflectors, front and rear? Instantly into the waste stream.
  • + 25
 My feels are that I use a bike to commute when possible, and as a sport, it has very minimal environmental impact (your not burning up 100$ of fuel a weekend, you don't need a big duty truck to haul a flat bed trailer to haul your toys). Compared to ATV's, Dirt bikes, Snowmobiles, Side by Sides, a bicycle is harmless. for that reason, I couldn't are less if its sustainable or not. The plastic bags and water bottles you've used in your lifetime has had million times more effect on the world.
  • + 18
 eating meat has a bigger impact by a large margin, but you wont see that pushed by our government. Instead, they'll push you to using mercury filled bulbs that produce a biohazard when disposed, and push you to lithium ion powered cars. Because you can tax a sale, you can't tax avoiding something.
  • + 5
 Jacquie Phelan (aka Alice B Toeclips) was the one who said something like "the only moral use of a bicycle is in place of a car" - so all the rest, including the capacity to enjoy fresh mountain air under your own power, is simply personal enjoyment.
  • + 4
 @atrokz just tax meat or tax water or tax the antibiotics used to raise meat
  • + 7
 @atrokz: I mean they could add a tax to animal products, which are generally a purchased product in our society. But that would likely cause outcry since "Meat is the only way to get the protein we need".
  • + 0
 @twozerosix: she sounds like a closed minded miserable twat.
  • + 2
 @atrokz: are they still pushing CFLs in Canada? Around me everyone has been pushing for / switching to LED.
  • + 3
 @atrokz: crap, I'm eating meaty chili post ride right now. At least I rode my aluminum bike to the trailFrown
  • + 5
 This. But most people get reallllllly defensive when the subject matter comes up. It's hard to talk to most people about the impact of meat being too accessible/cheap....and i'm not even vegan.
  • + 2
 @atrokz: Good point about meat, just take a look: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_meat_production
"the livestock sector is a major stressor on many ecosystems and on the planet as a whole. Globally it is one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases and one of the leading causal factors in the loss of biodiversity, while in developed and emerging countries it is perhaps the leading source of water pollution. Meat is also considered one of the prime factors contributing to the current sixth mass extinction."
  • + 2
 @Unscathed: Yup, people get really defensive when you offer up the option that they reduce their meat consumption.
  • + 1
 @bkm303: they were, now that the chicken came home to roost (disposal of a toxic product) they are now pushing LED. We have all LED bulbs at home with the exception of a few. Our Govmt is kind of a joke when it comes to being green, because it's mostly tied to making someone else money and is rarely a pure move towards reducing waste.
  • + 1
 @Legbacon: moderation. That's all we need.
  • + 20
 We are seriously debating about the most eco-friendly mode of mechanical transportation while the car companies of the world crank out thousands of gas burning machines a day...Ok.
  • + 14
 no kidding - if we really want to make an impact, focusing on a tiny component of the problem doesn't help. "Every little bit counts!", say some, but that's false. You only have so much time, effort and money so we need to focus on the biggest impacts. Spending all your money on a carbon bike and riding it instead of driving is a net win.
  • + 5
 @plyawn: you get me sir. Thank you
  • + 19
 I just finished reclamation and reforestation of my backyard alumina mine. It took me fifteen years to dig enough for one bike using only a bamboo shovel. I am now working on a solar powered furnace and hope to have my ingots by 2023. If all goes well with my plans for a hydro powered extrusion process i should have tubing by the mid 2030's. By then welding and heat treating will be easy and I can move on to components.
  • + 3
 Welding takes energy bro, might as well just quit now. You can always put a bamboo pole between your legs and pretend it's a bike, that's a much greener option.
  • - 5
flag Poulsbojohnny (Nov 10, 2017 at 14:08) (Below Threshold)
 @bkm303: I think you missed the sarcasm there...
  • + 13
 @Poulsbojohnny: um..... wat?
Obviously it was a joke. As was my comment. Or did you think I was ACTUALLY suggesting he run around with a bamboo pole between his legs like he was playing quidditch?
  • + 21
 I put organic air in my tyres.
  • + 3
 I put diet water in my camelback
  • + 4
 No wonder that old tire air smells like fart.
  • + 2
 I've heard diet water is bad for your health. Better stick to the original water with real sugar.
  • + 17
 Paul Aston wants everyone to ride ebikes on trails and couldn''t care less about trail sustainability (or the sustainability of sport in general for that matter), but he wants to shame me for having a carbon bike.

Got it.
  • + 3
 paul aston is an asshat, almost all of his articles are BS and hes a whiny baby, drives me nuts.
  • + 15
 What the f*ck Pinkbike?

Sickbicycles did not rant about carbon bikes but bikes and pollution they generate in general. I personally chatted with them about it. A few decent people are quite pissed of about this pile of bullshit that your article with Pole raised. Carbon bikes being worse for environment than steel or aluminium is just not true. It's a festival of hipocrisy. Pole went to China realized how hard it will be for them to produce a carbon bike ( for various reasons) and decided that if they can't have it, they will shit on it, as simple as that. Like a teenage girl turned down by a dude after a one night stand and telling everyone he raped her.

Also, that bamboo bike, how about joints are often impregnated with toxic resins and then the whole thign is covered with toxic coating. Then it is fitted with all the same components as every other bike. Green my arse. BTW black friday is coming, it's going to be a great time to make green purchases.

This whole website is filled with a bunch of hipocrites who are first to call carbon unsustainable and then they complain that bikes are too expensive. Guess what sweet hearts, your moaning on the price is the number one reason why companies look for cuts and one of those cuts is careless waste management. It does not matter much whether it is carbon frames being dumped into the sea or a pile of organic fair trade banana skins. Dumping any stuff into the ocean is unacceptable.
  • - 1
 Preach
  • + 1
 Carbon or steel... Boost, diameter, etc... just buy new one every two years and feed the beast... that's the point.
...and don't forget to fill your bike with foam Big Grin
  • + 3
 @Bersekr: don't forget to make a click bait poll making you look like you care
  • + 6
 @Bersekr: That's kind of the thing, isn't it? I still have my 20 year old Trek 7000ZX (handed down to my son). I have a 9 year old Kona Four which I expect will last another 10 years (again to be handed down). I plan on getting a new bike next year and expect it to last me at least as long as the Trek. People who buy a new bike every year for no real reason other than a material dissatisfaction disorder (trail envy) are part of the 'waste' problem in cycling. Be content with what you have. Work within its limits and enjoy the sport. THAT is as sustainable as it is going to get.
  • + 1
 I agree here, and from a quick Google search, it looks like carbon can be and is recycled. On major company that uses recycled carbon is BMW in their I3 and I8 models. It is incredible what actual research will teach you.
  • + 4
 Jesus Waki, is that the best metaphor you could come up with?
  • + 2
 @carraig042: that's it, I'm buying a BMW...for sustainability's sake.
  • + 3
 Where do you take your carbon parts when they are broken?

In Germany old metal is even worth a bit as it gets recycled.

The pole article wasn't perfect and a lot of marketing imho.
But it made people think and do sth. in terms of sustainability.

Now manufacturers can show us their superior conditions and we will appreciate that for sure.
The ones that are pissed are pissed for a reason.

Time to make it better. A chance for everybody. It will pay of.

Let's have a good time!
  • + 1
 Carbon is not a problem if it is made ethically and environmentally. Take Unno or Robotbike for example... they will categorically want to know if you break on of their frames and will want it back to analyse and im sure they will give you a new one for free. Other bigger companies aren't bothered. I think carbon is fine for boutique frames that are made ethically and environmentally responsibly but not for mass consumption. Steel and aluminium are repairable and recycleable so less of an issue. No company is going to dump tons of aluminium or steel, the material costs are worth too much. Big picture... bikes are probably a very small environmental issue globally and there are other more important lifestyle choices we can make... less children, less cars, less meat.
  • - 2
 If they throw carbon frames into the ocean, but recycle aluminium frames, the choice is easy for me.

CO2 is all theories (sponsored by the government and brands to improve sales and economy), while huge piles of carbon being thrown in the ocean being bad is a fact. And I don't want to be a part in that.

And if I could chose I would tell them to throw the bananas in the ocean, because those will dissolve (?) after a while, but the carbon frames will stay there forever.
  • - 3
 @Mattin: it's far more complicated. The bike factory generates lots of other kinds of waste, which is toxic, paint, oils, solvents all sorts of crap, and it is quite possible that in many cases they dump it straight to the rivers. Then the industry uses tons of all sorts of packaging, then the amount of fossil fuels necessary to ship everything around. Then the social security of workers. It's a huge pile of stuff aside of what happens to rests of material and samples that didn't pass quality control. While by no means I claim that throwing toxic composites into the oceans is good, it's impact in the great picture is rather small. Mountain bikers have to take their heads out of their arses and stop pretending that their sport is green. In vast majority of cases it isn't. Many people spend more time in the car driving to/from trail head than biking. Where are all the MTB-Greenies when you see a sick edit with dudes getting their bikes shuttled with a giant diesel truck?!

This whole case of carbon ocean fill is not much more but a way for people owning alu bikes to feel better about themselves while they don't do anything different than carbon bike owners when it comes to everything else they do in life. If you consider yourself "moral" just because your frame isn't made of carbon, you are full of shit.

@fartymarty - carbon fames are way more repairable than steel and aluminium frames. And I like that you mention the issue of broken frames. Well maybe light weight producuts are unethical because they are more likely to be damaged. I wonder when a company like Pole will bring that up. I surprised commencal didn't play that marketing game. That they make their frames strong and heavy because they care for environment.

Finally let me call out companies on stupid standard game, 275 and boost generated plenty of additional waste. How about customers and buying into Black Friday, summer sales and all that stuff? Who would like to work in a big factory and weld frames, earning little money? Or would you all rather be engineers? Huh? Listen people, it's faaaaar more complicated than throwing frames into the sea. Majority of us, through our lifestyles and western values, have that on our hands, so stop pointing fingers...
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: So if I'm taking one step towards a better world, I become full of shit, because I'm on my way to becoming greener, but I'm not there yet?

Not to mention nobody is perfect. The only thing you can do to make the world greener is either become a scientist to biologist and make a groundbreaking discovery that will change the way we live. That, or to kill yourself, because all of us are only making this planet more dirty.

If ever single person and company on this world would get 10% more green in the way they do things, it will make a difference. Every step is a step forwards, no matter how little.

The world is not black and white like you describe.
  • - 3
 @Mattin: that’s not what I meant. And I used “you” in general terms not you in particular. I meant people who expect credit for chosing aluminium or steel over carbon for environmental reasons while I seriously doubt there is much difference and I am more than sure that there is nothing to be proud of. There is a dramatic difference between steel bikes from sicbicylces and steel bikes by on-one. Same with carbon bikes made by unno and ones made by pitpro. Again, bicycle consists of more parts than just the frame... so make sure you aren’t saving the planet by driving on eco diesel...
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: the issue with carbon for me is two fold. 1 brittle failure. As an Engineer I hate materials that do not have a degree of ductility. 2 it is hard to judge if it is safe to ride ir not. Ny bro in law drove under a barrier with carbon bike up top. It ain't broke but is it safe to ride? With aluminium or steel you can see the damage. Carbon is not easy.

I have been told carbon can be repaired but steel must be the easiest. I can think of half a dozen people that can repair steel. Aluminium is a bit more difficult but if I were buying aluminium I would get something like a Nicolai (or GG if I lived in Nth America). Send it back and I am sure they can fix it.
  • - 2
 @fartymarty: it depends. If you have a suspicious damage on a super light XC or road frame then there’s definitely a room to worry. But as soon as you have some thick tubing it’s much better. Same goes for light weight aluminium elements. Then you have carbon and carbon. Are we talking terrible sht for low lives from AliExpress or Canyon or Santa Cruz or Unno?

Then we can talk particular components. I will never ever use a carbon handlebar of any kind or a feather weight alu one. I will never ride a carbon crankset unless midlife crisis will lead me to marathon racing or something like that.

I just recorded a chat with Cesar Rojo, I’ll post it as soon as I edit it. The troll radio is coming
  • + 4
 "Like a teenage girl turned down by a dude after a one night stand and telling everyone he raped her."

Hey, congratulations WAKIdesigns! You win the Dumbest Thing Anybody Said on Pinkbike This Week award! Competition was stiff, but you outdid them all.
  • - 3
 @Phillyenduro: don’t worry about it mate
  • + 2
 @Poulsbojohnny: Which is what I was gonna write, but you expressed it better.
My daughter rides my ex-girlfriend's year 2000 Sub5 which was also my son's 5 years ago, my DH bike is a 2005 Orange 223, my wife rides a Kona Dawg Supreme and my son a second hand 2013 Stanton Slackline etc etc
Recycle is the key, rather than reprocess.
  • + 2
 @yonibois: Reduce, reuse, recycle. If they are well designed and built bikes they will last for years.
  • + 1
 This article only serves as an interlude, lip service, to the new Pole bike that is to debut any time now.
  • + 0
 @jollyXroger: Pole lacks budget and media leverage for such moves with a site of a size of Pinkbike.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Not really. You just need your favorite journo. Some people just have better relationships to certain company(/ies). It is media prevalent, regardless the product/service being peddled.
  • + 0
 @jollyXroger: So you think it’s about Pole Aston? Wink I doubt it and even if it be so, I could assume it’s a rather sincere favoring since Pinkbike is definitely not getting paid for this by Pole. A few worlds top bike journalists have been rather openly favoring certain brands. Back to Paul (!) Aston I have no idea what is his personal bike, if he has any, but seeking for ultimate lack of bias is rather futile and then at the same time... silly. What could we then have to say about Mike Levy and his Rocky Mountain bike? Or his Stans wheels? Should he out of some high horse principle not own any bike at all? Then race BC Race on a randomly chosen bike? With video of him picking a card with a name of the bike out of a hat with “Trolls for clean bike journalism” representative checking the cleaneness of the procedure? After those trolls decided which bikes are worthy and appropriate? Do you want to measure his riding time to check if by some chance one of PB journalists are riding one bike too much this favoring a certain brand/ model? That’s a freqking insanity
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I have no problem with a reviewer being biased. We all have personal preferences. I do, however, have a problem with the reviewer lacking integrity. #trollsforintegrity Wink
  • + 14
 I ride a 13 year old Norco Fluid. Not sure if I'm an environmentalist or just cheap.
  • + 21
 I used to just be a cheap bastard... now I am environmentally friendly!
  • + 2
 Could be both!
  • + 4
 That's the thing, man - the only meaningful "green" choice you can really make in mtb is just to not buy new shit all the time. Lucky for all of us, being green is cheap!
  • + 10
 I consider myself an environmentalist, as I was brought up that way, and in my dad’s bike shop no less.... but to be honest, given the state of things i.e. global rampant capitalism along with population rates and the rise of extreme factless corrupt politics, I am of the strong opinion that we are completely f*cked no matter what we do.
  • + 2
 Yep, pretty much.
  • + 12
 Big corporations LOVE hearing this man. You are made to feel like making a difference, is worthless. However I promise if you do your own bit its worth it. it all adds up. You know what, I thought people didnt care. When I wrote the article we were really saying 'this is what we are doing, do as you please' - Now its on here and people are discussing it. Kinda madness. But a positive step, it wasnt discussed now it is. All the people making fun on here, deep down they ae worried so they make a little joke here and there. Gallows humour. But the secret is things are going to shit fast and we gotta pitch in or at least let those who want to. - Jordan
  • + 1
 Capitalism and narcissism will fuck us up our own asses.
  • + 2
 @jordanchaos: We need more of the Generation X punk / hardcore DIY f*ck the corporation ethic.
  • + 8
 The trouble is that so much ‘sustainabilty’ is hypocritical. Take electric cars. No polution, emissons etc. But what a con. All that happens is the polution occurs else where at the power station.
Bikes can not be eco friendly. Its a impossible due to wear and tear. Every thing or action that humans do is impactive on the earth. That bamboo bike still needs to go in a 20ft tin and travel half way round the world in a massive ship to get to you. And thats before we consider the natural habits of orangutans that have been cut down to create plantations.
Sometimes you have to just minimise it a bit and accept that we lost the opportunity to reduce our impact centuries ago.
  • + 21
 I respect and appreciate this realist approach. How can we be "sustainable" in a global economy that is solely dependent on growth?
  • + 1
 That is a good point of view :applause:
  • + 5
 @me2menow: As best we can, recycling and re-use. Sustainability needs be integrated all the way through the design process (manufacturing processes, design, packaging and transport, etc).
  • + 1
 @iainmac-1: I agree-- I just don't think it is something the free market can facilitate without external regulation.
  • + 8
 A natural gas combined cycle power plant is far more efficient that even the best internal combustion engines. This means more kilowatt hours per ton of CO2 emitted (assuming greenhouse gasses are the largest threat to the human race which is the consensus of the scientific community). In places other than Trumpland there is more Nuclear (virtually zero CO2 per KWH) and renewables in place which makes electric cars even more sustainable. The key here is increasing global temperatures as little as possible which electric cars are acheiving.
  • + 2
 @me2menow: here's hoping as commodity prices go up, it forces free market to really push and be innovative in sustainable design to recover costs...
  • + 1
 @iainmac-1: I agree about recycling and re-use, but this is the primary issue with Carbon Fiber. While it can be downcycled into things like cell phone cases, it can't be recycled the way aluminum or steel frames can. And while it's good to integrate sustainability into the design process, true sustainability in any product is built into the entire life cycle. LCA (Life Cycle Assessments/Analyses) look at the environmental impact from material extraction to disposal or recycling.
  • + 2
 The term sustainable isn't always used appropriately. Sustainable basically implies that you can continue to do so without depleting resources. We're currently using more fossile fuels than is being regenerated, for instance. Some woods are being maintained in a way that whatever is being harvested is being regrown so that could be called sustainable though of course it does come at the price of biodiversity. Which is the issue with nearly all agriculture of course. Bamboo grows so fast that you can use more of it so in that sense it is sustainable. Of course it doesn't need to come from halfway around the world. Paul Aston mentioned locally grown bamboo. Bamboo grows nearly everywhere so just grow it where you also want to process and sell it. So yeah, bamboo is a good (sustainable) alternative to other construction materials.
  • - 1
 @hardcore-hardtail: Nuclear fuel comes from magic then?
  • + 10
 The diversion of pollution of electric cars argument is a half truth at best, and needs to stop. While it's correct that that it moves the pollution from the tailpipe to the car to the power plant, it fails to take into consideration that a power plant is massively more efficient than individual engines in cars. Also how dirty the electricity grid is, is also very regionally dependent.

In a few regions if you drive a Prius you will currently pollute less than than an electric car. But as we diverge from coal and move to cleaner technology (NG, nuclear, solar, wind, hydro) the electric car will become cleaner with those developments.

For example; Newyork you would need a car that averages 115mpg to be as clean as an electric car. On the other side of the spectrum in Michigan you would need a car that averages 38mpg. While 38mpg does not sound like a lot this is one of the dirties regions of the US. And if think about how many cars/trucks/suvs are actually able to achieve more than 38mpg its a pretty small number.

Page 12 is where I got these examples from.
www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/legacy/assets/documents/clean_vehicles/electric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

The average fuel economy of cars sold today is around 26mpg.

No one is saying (and if they are, they shouldn't be) that electric cars are THE solution, but they are certainly part of the equation.
  • + 7
 @hardcore-hardtail: Absolutely, this whole myth of "electric cars just push the pollution to occur at the power plant" is really killing me. Most governments in the world are moving to more renewable generation and phasing out sources with high CO2 emissions in order to meet the Paris Accord goals.
In the UK (as of 2014) 20% of your electricity comes form nuclear and 22% form renewables, 40% from gas (luckily coal is being phased out around the world).
In Canada (as of 2013) 60% comes from hydro, 15% from nuclear, 10% gas with coal being slowly phased out.
Unfortunately China keeps building more coal plants, but at least they are building renewable sources at an incredible rate and phasing out old coal plants which are very bad polluters?
  • + 0
 @blueninja: Well, also mind you that lithium ion batteries emit radiation and aren't recyclable...
  • + 4
 It's possible to measure tailpipe vs smokestack emissions and compare. The works has been done; not a con. Particularly if you have renewables on the other side of the substation. But the manufacturing and mining to produce that solar panel!?! That can be measured too. The lifecycle CO2 intensity of that solar farm is less than a natural gas plant. None of us have zero impact, but better choices are real and meaningful. The bad decisions we collectively make now will be the ones our grandkids will consider "lost opportunities". The good decisions make now will be always be good decisions.
  • + 5
 @me2menow: The heck are you talking about? The only radiation they emit is non-ionizing like thermal and IR. Also parts of lithium ion batteries can be recycled and are being recycled, the material is used to make more batteries.
  • + 4
 @LOTCP: No, Uranium is mined using a process called leeching and refined to U235. A pretty disgusting chemical mining process really but overall not very CO2 intensive like say mining coal or natural gas. When engineers discuss the efficiency of a certain type of power generation system the mining and transportation is usually nullified and the actual energy conversion is focused on. Although that does mean that there are certainly some elements overlooked, if one was to assume all upstream emissions were equal (I know they aren't but not far from the truth) the results are as I discussed. As it stands, the massive amount of energy that can be obtained from a nuclear reaction as opposed to chemical reaction like coal or NG means that this process consumes far less fuel and produces far fewer emissions. All of this becomes quite important when focusing on greenhouse gasses as the main emission of concern which the scientific consensus is that it should be. Bottom line, humans are bad for the environment as long as we need the massive amount of energy that is currently consumed and we need to isolate our pollution to which has the most immediate impact on our environment, that is why nuclear is the best option as a stepping stone away from coal and natural gas and towards renewables. Sadly nuclear is being regulated out of existence here in Trumpland...
  • + 2
 @blueninja: The main issue with lithium is that the mining fuels conflicts like those in Congo. Only recently companies are putting effort into trying to not buy conflict minerals. Best thing as you can do as a consumer is to make sure that when you dispose of it, you do so properly so that valuable minerals can be recycled. Same goes of course for electronics which often contain gold etc (another conflict mineral). It is not just about the environment.

Actually I think it is pretty odd the discussion seems to be triggered with by carbon. I thought it was the resin waste that was dumped in the sea, not necessarily the fibres. But there is so much more. What happens with waste water after painting and anodiization (which takes quite some water too). Where does the titanium come from? And mind you higher end Reynolds steel tubing contains titanium too. There is so much more to it. I wouldn't like to have a carbon frame but that hasn't got much to do with the environmental impact.

@hardcore-hardtail : The main issue I have with nuclear power is that it generates dangerous waste that requires careful storage for centuries. And if we look at the past centuries and current developments, I don't really think we guarantee such careful storage.
  • + 1
 @hardcore-hardtail: How about the massive amount of energy to refine into plu-ox? How about the spent fuel that has no disposal solution?

Solar and other renewable forms of energy (along with lowering the base load through smarter tech) is the way to go. I loathe nuclear as much as coal or LNG. One little slip up and we are all f*cked with nuclear. My hopes for the future revolve upon the elimination of nuclear energy as it exists now. You should wish this as well if you care at all about the future.
BTW, I'm a nuclear QC engineer typing this as I sit in a nuclear power plant.
  • + 6
 @dweiser: What your good analysis misses, however, is the long term ecology impact of hybrid/electric cars. Batteries are pretty toxic, no matter what they are made from. Not to mention the ridiculous supply chain used for materials to ship to manufacturing plants, ship to final purchase destinations, etc. The irony of the amount of pollutants that go into building a 'green' car is hilarious.
  • + 5
 @LOTCP: It is interesting that they would allow someone with such a tenuous grasp on current nuclear reactor design to be a Quality engineer in a power plant. I am assuming your major was Industrial engineering or statistics?

I myself am a Mechanical engineer and took classes on sustainable energy solutions and have studied nuclear reactors pretty in depth. The Chernobyl-esque doomsday scenario that you are trying to suggest is total bullshit. That was a flawed design that is no longer in use, the only deaths ever to come from a nuclear power plant accident happened at Chernobyl. With current reactor design (current meaning 1960's since there has only been one new reactor built in the last 40 years) the only possibility of an explosion would be from pressurized steam which is a possibility in NG or coal as well. You will probably point to Fukishima next but you should also do some research on that and tell me the negative impacts of that small amount of radiation leakage, there certainly were some but they were very localized and blown out of proportion. The single issue with Nuclear is how accurately humans can measure radiation levels, even if an increase in those levels would never have an effect on us it is still seen as a negative because it is an increase. I assume you don't fly in airplanes or get x-rays if you're that worried about radiation?

I have done a lot of research on Nuclear generation and the accidents and dangers associated with it and it is apparent to me that you have not. I have some papers I could send your way if you're looking to get lernt.

The fuel refinement may take a lot of energy but the nuclear cycle produces exponentially more electricity than other sources so this is a pretty moot point.
  • + 2
 @me2menow: and the mining process to get the minerals needed to make all the batteries is incredibly destructive
  • + 1
 Good luck with all that, I hear there are good opportunities in waste storage . Also Fukushima is not done maybe not ever.
  • + 8
 A bit off topic but the ignorance really irks me.

Might I also remind everybody that currently, all large United States Naval Vessels ( aircraft carriers and others) are powered by Nuclear reactors. Essentially giant floating nuclear reactors and have been since the 60's with zero incident...

but hey you can be misinformed and afraid of ghosts if you want to.
  • + 3
 @hardcore-hardtail: thank you for the logic. I am sure we will get plenty of down votes
  • + 3
 @hardcore-hardtail: I note that LOTCP had no response for your assumption. Great argument vis a vis greenhouse gas--I got lernt. Live up the road from Palo Verde and haven't been irradiated once in twenty-five years. The tabs on their web page give priority to nuclear, though it's all lower-case and low key. It seems to be a dirty little secret that's not dirty. They carry on with coal and gas to keep up their public image in this backward-thinking period, I guess, or because money's sunk in the facilities. Apparently we need pro-nuclear rallies. Gwin hucks Palo Verde! Thanks.
  • + 0
 @me2menow: Stop growing? Even plants do it. Shrink 'economy' to its earlier meaning--household management? --But the salaries of financial administrators and their minions are too dependent on 'the' economy, which even Planet Money ignores. Sorry; get a real job.
  • + 7
 I have devoted my career to sustainability. I am an engineering professor. My research group is working on CO2-capture using our high-pressure, density-driven separation (HDS) process. We also work on sanitation in the third world. We make sewage sludge "disappear" by combusting it in supercritical water. My laboratory is called the Carbon Recycling Center, where we also explore biomass to energy conversion (also using SCW). My team of undergraduates in senior design this semester is developing "Dr. J's Magic Green Tire Sealant" and hope to have it available in our LBS's by summer. Many mountain bikers are tech-weenies (like me). Come to Mizzou and join my team! The riding is quite good her in CoMO, and we have trails right on campus. Go Tigers!!

That being said, I am about to drive my F-150 to Rock Bridge State Park where I will ride my new Trek Fuel EX 29 9.8. It's a carbon bike, which replaces my stolen Santa Cruz Tallboy LTc (also carbon). I note the hypocrisy.
  • + 1
 "I have devoted my career to sustainability."
Me too! Studied environmental science, decided I wanted to work in either transportation or energy, went back for a BSME and now I work in composite tooling, making it cheaper to build light airplanes. You get a lot of energy savings if you can shave pounds off an airplane!

My company is also working to build a waste processing plant. The Janicki Bioenergy Omniprocessor. I'd be curious to know more about your process.

I drive a 2000 Tundra. Better to make it last forever than scrap it and buy a vehicle of virgin materials.
  • + 6
 The idea of sustainable development/Agenda 21 (google it) is social engineering designed to enslave humanity, rounding them up to live in cities, in virtual prison cell apartments, where your "smart phone" controls your ideas, feelings and thoughts, and the Govt. runs your life while your "smart meter" monitors controls your tiny enclosed environment. This works out great for the folks at the top of the socio-economic ladder, as they get richer while everyone else gets poorer, more controlled and enslaved by the one world government that knows better than you and nannies you into accelerated decay.
  • + 9
 "The perfect environmentalist is the one who never leaves the city." - Gary Fisher
  • + 3
 And walks barefooted everywhere dressed in hemp clothing
  • + 3
 @rivercitycycles: I just realized, Seattle doesn't have a homelessness crisis, it has a growing environmental movement!
  • + 8
 The companies that make bikes think it is justifiable to have a frame only last two years.
Look at the warranties.
How the hell is about sustainabuility?
  • + 4
 Thing is, if they offered a longer warranty period, what would that do? They'd make beefier, heavier bikes that didn't break. If they made lightweight bikes that utilized the warranty, they'd still trash broken frames. I'd rather see bikes developed with versatility in mind. A lightweight frame with cheap replacement parts available, and different configurations available so you can run it as an 26lbs XC bike or a 30lbs enduro. Gureilla Gravity for example, utilizes the same frame front triangle for 3 of its bikes (Smash, Megatrail, ShredDog) so you can swap parts around for various wheel sizes and travel lengths. Combined with a competitive weight and this engineering allows the customer try to various setups, keeping it relevant for years to come.
  • + 3
 @PHeller:
my 03 spesh enduro.
weighs 34. pounds built up for free riding.
life time warranty.
Look at the Rocky Mountain Slayer.
The fact that manafactures try to out do each other with lighter parts is pathetic.
strenghth is being compramised for making parts as light as possible.
Go. on forums for how many people snap carbon fiber cranks.
  • + 4
 If you really need or want something, love it, can afford it and are ok with the ethical consequences, buy it. If you don't really need it that much etc, then don't. Sounds obvious but I think there is more being sold than people really want. So yeah if you really want that carbon frame then go for it. You may not really need that new phone though.

I don't care for the phone nor for a carbon frame. But I expect to buy a new steel frame within the next few months (replacing my ten year old current frame) and I don't have the slightest belief that this is a very environmental thing to do. But I know I'm going to love that frame.
  • + 3
 The environmental impact of Carbon vs Aluminum is extremely complex. Many make the simple argument that unlike aluminum, carbon can't be recycled and therefore it is worse for the environment. While it is true that aluminum can be recycled, this is only one factor to consider. Both materials require electricity to produce, but aluminum requires far more. The two largest producers of aluminum are China and Russia where they generate the bulk of their electricity by burning coal. On the other hand, carbon fiber is made largely in the US, Japan and Germany, where the average kW of electric power is generated through much cleaner methods. If we define a "clean" bike as one that puts the least amount of CO2 into the atmosphere, perhaps a carbon bike is far greener. A second criticism of carbon is that rejected frames get dumped into the ocean. This myth is utter nonsense and the result of a poor translation. In many areas of Asia, bulk waste is used to fill shallow bays and make new usable land. While this practice certainly impacts the environment, it is a far cry from the suggestion that barges of carbon frames are being dumped onto delicate coral reefs. Additionally, one must consider that carbon frames are inert and will not leach toxic materials into a landfill. Basically, we are pumping carbon out the ground as oil and burying it again as a plastic/carbon composite. Isn't this the definition of carbon sequestration? Finally, we are told that carbon is yet another bike industry marketing scheme flogged onto gullible dentists. While this might be true, consider that the bike industry consumes only a tiny fraction of carbon fiber production. The aerospace and automotive industries are far larger users and I challenge anyone to tell Boeing they have been suckered into the hype.
  • + 4
 Talking about environmental issues.. I have never seen so many gas guzzling vehicles than in Canada and USA. Ridiculous! Damn pick-up trucks and SUV's everywhere. Pure hypocrisy.
  • + 2
 You paint with broad strokes, friend. I'd like to think that at least a few of the virtue-signalling, self-congratulatory smug a*sholes on here actually live a lifestyle that reflects their big talk. It must be hard to ride their bikes while patting themselves on the back. Myself on the other hand chose option #1. My 8000 pound truck hauls my turbo sled to the mountains a couple times a month(although I'm switching to unleaded race gas this year) and that thumpta-thump you hear from my cammed-up Corvette is the sweet sound of baby seals being clubbed. Honesty is the best policy...
  • + 4
 So you are saying all people in Canad/US are the same, must drive and act the same? Just because you saw a lot of something? Wow, and I thought stereotyping was a bad thing. There are almost 400 million in Canada and the US combined. Do you think all of us are the same? Hmm, so can we Western Hemisphere folks assume all Dutch wear clogs and lay around eating cheese and chocolate all day? See how that works?
  • + 4
 @bman33: I don't think that comment was saying that everyone in Canada and the US is the same at all. But coming from the EU it is pretty shocking how culturally attached to dirty great trucks NA really is. Of course that doesn't mean everyone is the same, but there is a cultural trend there which is markedly different than seen anywhere in the EU.
  • + 1
 @delusional: You're rights, that's exactly what I meant. And bman33, we don't eat chocolate that much. Weed and hookers is all we do.
  • + 3
 We just need a bit of Cradle to Cradle design in the MTB industry // www.ted.com/talks/william_mcdonough_on_cradle_to_cradle_design // and transition to a Circular Economy sooner than later // www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy/overview/concept
  • + 3
 I buy quality bikes that are easy to keep running on the trails with durable parts that can be serviced and/or repaired. The proliferation of standards is another symptom of conspicuous consumption, sustained by the culture of bi-annual bike replacement.
  • + 3
 All the wealthiest people of history must love it when a lowly tax payer decides to take personal responsibility as a consumer for all the damage caused by their ill gotten gains. Reimagine a history where JD. Rockefeller had to use his own money to fix the areas of the planet that he and his buddies destroyed making money. Good phucin luck fixing planet with sjw's and highbred garbage cars. I care too much to think the well meaning butter heads are gonna help in any way. Ever see someone virtue signal for an act of environmentalism that can not possibly save one lousy square foot of a wild space ?
  • + 2
 33 years old, get a new bike every couple years, burn through tires and components all the time, ride my dirt bike too and love going on road trips in my truck. One thing that helps me sleep a little better each night as far as the environment goes is that i am my age and still don't have kids. I'd have to buy quite a few sets of carbon wheels to equate to a daily impact that was me plus a couple more humans(showers, food, clothing, fuel, kids bikes, etc).
  • + 5
 Yup. Thank you. If idiots would stop having 8 kids then that would make the biggest impact of all. I have no kids and I buy my one shiny aluminum bike every 5 years and ride them with my friends. I sleep well.
  • + 3
 @specializedhaybailer: Ya, i ride dirt bikes and i'm a bad guy in the eyes of the environmentalists, but if i hiked exclusively and had 5 kids that would be perfectly acceptable. ....rolls eyes
  • + 2
 In recent years I've come to realise that we, as a species are essentially doomed and unfortunately we will probably take down several other species during this journey to oblivion. Sounds pessimistic maybe but essentially the earth will survive and repair and give way to a new dominant species,one that may look back and wonder why we did the things the way we did. In the mean time we need to enjoy ourselves and be conscious of our effect on the environment and be resourceful and meaningful in what we do.
  • + 2
 Going from car to no car, and just a couple bikes, is a big step in sustainability. Need to still manage to fit society's other standards, like getting to work in time, hauling personal stuff somehow. Once I got this mastered, I'll think about sustainability, but replacing a perfectly working bike with another doesn't fit my idea of sustainability. I'll consider it when mine's no longer serviceable.
  • + 2
 Here is what we are doing, though it is hardly enough:

Two kids only.

Driving a 14 year old car. I would love to have something faster, or newer, but...

We live a 15-minute bike ride from my job, along a rail-to-trail paved path. I ride to work whenever I can, which isn't often enough. We pay more to live there; real estate is significantly cheaper another 20 minutes away by car.

We have our trash, recycling, and compost picked up by www.pedalpeople.coop. We pay more for this than what the local trash hauling company charges.

We are building a house (this is a bad thing--but there were few other options). All of the lumber is cut locally--we are lucky to have a relatively sustainable forestry industry here. Everything else comes from somewhere else. This kills us. We argued with our contractor over how many trees needed to be cut. We are avoiding petroleum products wherever we can, but they are a must in some places. We will be blowing shredded newspapers into the walls for insulation, but this still isn't perfect. If there is enough money, we can use sheep's wool instead, but that is $$$$$$$$$.

Our house will be all-electric, with one exception. With all electric appliances, we can generate most, if not all, of our power with solar photovoltaics. A LOT of petroleum still goes into making and transporting everything we will need. It's far from perfect. The one exception is heat. Electric heat doesn't cut it in New England, unless you have a trust fund to pay the power bill. So to stay as close to carbon neutral as possible, we are going with wood pellets to heat. Not the pellet stove you have to constantly feed which you are thinking of, but a high-tech, self-feeding totally automated pellet boiler with 4 tons of pellet storage. The pellets get delivered by a truck in bulk, once or twice a year. Even after a 40% Massachusetts state rebate the system will still cost us well over twice what a natural gas boiler would be.

If we have enough solar power left over, we will buy a used Leaf and charge that with the excess. But we will still need a gasser for road trips. And that Leaf will have a lot of embodied energy and petroleum in it. Far from perfect.

The kids go to a school less than a mile away. We still haul them to and fro in a car most of the time. We have a cargo bike to haul them in good weather, but it doesn't get used nearly enough.

One cool thing about living in western Massachusetts is that you can eat 100% local with some effort. But just like everyone else, we like eating grapes in December, so it is hard to stick with eating local. We eat red meat only a couple of times per month. Mostly it's poultry and seafood. Since we aren't on the coast, the seafood all comes from somewhere else.

We are doing more than most, but regardless of our efforts, our kids and grandkids will be f^cked. One can only do so much.
  • + 2
 I'll put in my two cents, it's the disposable plastics that are the problem, try not to waste. In addition, pedal to the trailhead as much as possible and make the most out of those bike trips. Find that balance between sustainability and consumption.
  • + 2
 Carbon is a piece of shit ... it really hard to recycle carbon without generate lot of pollution. For me it's a reason why I will never buy a carbon bike (price is a reason too xD), using aluminum bikes, just put in a oven and the bike will have a new life
  • + 3
 aluminum (or steel) for me, will choose over carbon every day for environmental reasons. Sad we think by allowing additional pollution in asian countries, it somehow doesn't affect the rest of us.
  • + 2
 We need Mother Nature she does not need us, God created this place & then gave it to her to watch over it, now where killing it, with pollution & massive over population, our reason for being is for more than consuming every last grain of anything.
  • + 2
 too many people having too many kids......im doing my bit by not having any so im fine to buy whatever i want. If you imagine all the damage a single person does in there lifetime to the environment then me buying a few shiny bits is fine as long as me and my partner never have any kids. My biggest concern is people who have a 10 or so kids who choose not to work to even try to support them but still keep on spitting out babies for god knows what reason. If they were taxed for every kid they have had after say the first one i bet this would limit how many kids they have in similar situations from that point on. i just worry that those kids will grow up like the parents have a ton of kids who dont work who do the same and the cycle repeats meanwhile the ones to tax to support them are getting outnumbered then we have a terribly scary situation.
  • + 2
 The answer to this pole is no, we ALL knowing buy products made by 6 year old malasian kids daily and dont give a f*ck. Better then the sex trade i guess, but how do you think you can get a belt for 2 bucks shipped from alibaba, Trumpenomics ?
  • + 2
 You got got all your little speeches, all your little facts you pull out of a pamphlet or newspaper.You store that little nugget in your head and you see us...then you spew them out at us don't you. I love these little facts don't you? Then you tell us "You know, you are ruining the planet." Yeah but we are ruining the last years at the end of life.

Ha ha...I see what you did there.
  • + 2
 Everytime a new bike is made some poor animal dies, like a turtle or an otter, or something. Imagine what gets it when a new car is built. I brought my car 2nd hand, to limit the bloodbath and I don't eat meat, cause that's freeking terrible for mother earth. I do feel bad about the turtles and otters, but when you look at what heavy industry and our governments are failling to do for our poor planet, then buying a new bike to shred some gnar isn't the worst thing in the world...is it?
  • + 1
 I think it's always a bit of a dichotomy. I want new things, but the best thing would be to keep using the old things. I did switch away from carbon fiber frames due to the impact and reusability vs. aluminum (as well and cost vs. performance), but I'll still use carbon handlebars... They tend to last longer than my frames anyways
  • + 1
 Before reading the article about pole, I had no idea that carbon excess was thrown away in the ocean. Our actions all combine to make a difference. I have chosen to stay aluminium based on those findings. Together we can all make a positive difference. The health of the planet is reflected in the health of it's inhabitants.
  • + 1
 Another bit of OT: I noticed lately a steady stream of criticism of cargo ships regarding environment. They are indeed consuming a lot of fuel, but one should consider the whole picture. The fact is, cargo ships are the most efficient type of transport of bulk cargo (mass of cargo delivered divided by distance traveled and energy consumed). It beats railroad by a factor 3x and trucks by 10x in this metric.

people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/img/energy_freight_modes.png
  • + 1
 I guess that the problem could be related to what's being transported. Are those products well designed and built and will last for ages, or things that will fall apart or be obsolete within a year or two? The market will always go for the second one, so you have plenty of ships going around with useless items and those numbers are the ones that raise the problem, regardless of efficiency, environmental compliance, etc...
  • + 1
 I'm really glad to see more discussion of this, but I think it's important to remember that individual actions will not change anything significant. Apart from anything else, most of us don't have the option to not make heavy use of fossil fuels in our lives as things are currently structured.

I did the calculation from some research that was posted here a while ago, and realised that the amount of carbon produced from even the most polluting of bike frames is still only equivalent to what I have to burn every two months on my commute (although I do my best to minimise that). I'm still very much of the opinion that I will avoid buying carbon (and probably aluminium) frames in future. But realise that that's a drop in the ocean, and maybe a little pointless when I have to buy aluminium rims, cranks, bars, etc.

In reality the problem is systemic, and individual choices will not fix it. The belief that we can solve climate change, or any social problems, through consumer choices is pure neoliberal ideology. It's based in an ideology of choice that completely ignores the lack of difference in any of the choices available to us. The only way to make real change is through collective action.
  • + 1
 I have no problem with carbon fiber frames and will likely own one at some point. They aren't necessarily better than aluminum though. I would choose a well designed aluminum bike over most carbon bikes on the market right now. Thanks to companies like Knolly and Canfield for continuing to provide great aluminum options.
  • + 3
 Stop supporting bicycle companies that update their entire catalog of bikes annually with "BOLD NEW GRAPHICS" and "ENDURO COLOURWAYS"
  • + 1
 Bit O.T. but.
I'm more concerned about cars, especially when our governments keep pushing that emissions bullshit that older cars are the bane of the environment so hey we'll give you a tax break if you go out and buy this shiny new car every year that supposedly conforms to tighter emissions regulations (But rarely does, often not even close) and then (In london) we'll tax the older car which is more damaging which is worryingly ironic.

Then everyone goes out and buys two of the same car every year sometimes even more frequently drives them no more than 2-3 miles each way to work/shops. And yet we get force fed the utter bull crap that older cars are killing the planet. It is nothing more than the governments giving a sly backhander to the automotive industry and has nothing at all to do with the environment.

Come to think of it all these shiny new car breaks must be the assurances that the UK gov gave to Nissan when they fretted about Brexit. Funny considering Nissan (with Renault) supposedly make some very polluting cars.

Unfortunately the masses are either to thick or misinformed to realise otherwise.
  • + 1
 I care but I don't think our impact is big enough to affect anything. I'll do more polluting by driving 8 hours away to ride a bike park, then what a few drops of chain oil or rubber off my tires will do. And that's me driving a 4-banger to save on gas!!!
  • + 1
 Ideally, a disassembly line should be considered as well as the assembly line.
I have an overdrive 2 fork at home that I probably won't ever use again, what do I make of it ? If I put it at the recycle thing, will it actually be put apart and recycled ? Or just crushed and sent to a landfill in some far away country ?
Same with threaded BB, they're built so that you can't just change the bearings, you have to change the whole BB. +-20€ isn't that expensive but then, when the bearings are old you just bin the whole BB.
  • + 1
 I have a mostly vegan diet with the exception of fish. I recycle most things. Don't drive. Really don't give in to the consumer capitalism bullshit. Apart from when it comes to bikes. Will be honest about unknowingly being ignorant about it. Never thought about the impact untill the rant from Pole Bicycles. I have since tried to buy in as many cases as possible local (Hope etc) and avoid carbon at all costs. I do think we are all f*cked. But regardless of that. Mother nature gives us shit to shred. So respect her.
  • + 1
 i also tend to run stuff as long as i can. My current bike is a 2013 meta sl1 that i brought new in 2015 and 26 4 lyfe so i haven't brought into the world killing wheel debate and boost lol.....boost is killing our planet. Smile
  • + 1
 I try to make stuff last as long as possible, i only really change it when i have worn the fuck out of it, i drive an old van and dont intend to change it. Some stuff now in an out of the bike world just seems designed to fail after a couple of years, so no matter how hard you try things dont last like they did in the past, i know many people dazzled by the latest and greatest status symbols these things will never patch the hole in their life. I am guilty of the draw of new shiny bike stuff but try to hold back and as i age and become more and more jaded with materialism and bullshit marketing, i find it easier to hold off on purchases that i dont need, yes the monster of consumerism culture concerns me and yes its impact on the earth and its inhabitants concerns me but the only way to combat this is for people to live more simple lives, but it wont happen, the house of cards we have built will have to come tumbling down before we change. The shiny new cars wide screen tvs and new bikes every year or so are far too important for some to change.
  • + 1
 I think it's about balance. I try not to eat meat as much as possible and only ever buy used when it comes to the majority of car and bike parts. In my mind, driving a 10 year old car that does 40MPG seems like it can't be doing more harm then buying a brand new Tesla after the manufacturing and scrappage impact. Same with bikes. I have way more fun on a slightly older bike that would have been considered cutting edge five years ago knowing that I can use my money saved to live a more fulfilling, sustainable lifestyle. Although maybe all of the MTB roadtrips I can afford to take with my saved money has a worse impact!
  • + 2
 I'm now 60 years old. I am retired but I used to commute by bike as much as possible. My wife and I had no children which I think is the most any one can do for the environment.
  • + 1
 Everyone is complaining about carbon bikes. I don't know about you guys, but I go through about 6-8 tires a year. They are made of rubber. I also go through about one frame per year because I am good at snapping them (even though they are aluminum). Shouldn't people complain about tires not frames?
  • + 1
 I'm an Environmental Policy and Management grad student and the topic of sustainability comes up often. I will say it's changed my outlook on what I purchase but I have more than one carbon bike in my garage. I am however much more open to purchasing an aluminum bike in the future just based on what I know now regarding the by-products from carbon production. When you think of it, the purchasing of products in itself is bad for the environment and sustainability. Just yesterday I received some outerwear which was packaged and shipped via air right to my doorstep. The waste included some of the packaging material and the greenhouse gases emitted during the deliver of the products. The key for long-term sustainability may be simply purchasing less and using what we already have but most of us, including myself, love shiny new stuff including bikes, bike parts, etc.
  • + 1
 The tools of Riding, skiing, snowboarding, climbing etc allow us to get outside and appreciate the planet and nature. At least the tools create awareness of nature and new advocates each year. There are many organizations that have sprouted up that put together land management, access and education, that may not be around if people weren't out shredding trails, cliffs and pow.
  • + 1
 After reading all the comments here, I'm really surprised to see so many people buying aluminum frames and used frames/parts. I bought a used bike and I love it. I really don't see myself buying a new frame, ever. I still drive a '95 Suabaru and '94 F150. Mainly cause I don't want car payments and that would mean I'd have to work more/harder to get me. I'm pretty anti carbon frame, though I do have carbon bars(they came on the bike when I bought it) because I don't feel the strength is there and I'm kind of afraid of the recycling and environmental impacts. But I do rip snowmobiles around all winter so......
  • + 1
 "Modern society requires continual growth" global corporate capitalism requires growth, not modern society, regional capitalism is slightly more sustainable. If you live in the west though carbon bikes should be the least of your worries, as Americans 2/3 tax dollars are for building bombs and fighter jets that will never be used, I wonder what the environmental impact is of that, including the pollution caused by perpetual war itself.
  • + 4
 Just buy used. You save money, the earth, and you get to keep all the proper standards you love tup
  • + 5
 I’m just counting on Elon musk to fix everything.
  • + 1
 Whilst many say aluminium is okay to use because it's recyclable it is also a highly destructive process mining the Bauxite use in the production, with large swathes of rainforest cut down to enable the Bauxite mining.
Then there is the "Red mud", a highly alkaline waste product composed mainly of iron oxide that is generated in the industrial production of aluminium oxide, the principal raw material used in the manufacture of aluminium metal.
This "red mud" is then held in enormous man made ponds. In 2010 in Hungary, one of these waste ponds burst it banks flooding an entire village killing 10 people, directly injuring another 150 and causing untold future health issues for residents, as well as contaminating approximately 40 square miles of land.
Then there are the links of aluminium and aluminium production with Alzheimer's disease. Many recent medical studies have found this to be the case.
It's all well and good to protest the use of carbon due to its poor long term environmental effects but aluminium production is certainly an environmentally destructive and toxic process with medical implications which are becoming clearer year on year.
  • + 1
 But! It is more durable in the long run.
  • + 1
 That's exactly why I try to drink beer in a bottle!
  • + 1
 I feel like that is the whole point that no one seems to say...It's about balance. Of course we can't all stop driving cars etc...etc...etc...but by at least making an effort to minimize our impact in other ways it certainly helps, especially when others do it. Funny thing is, carbon is not the only material used on a carbon bike. Don't forget the plastic shifters, cables etc...balance people! It's so tiring hearing someones argument starting with "well did you type that on a cell phone?". FFS people...let's use a bit of common sense and try to make the world a better place. Doesn't mean we have to completely shun one thing over another...just make informed decisions where you can. For every person that doesn't, hopefully there's one that does. Do we all have an impact? Yes. Can we try to minimize it? Yes. Do we have to be so extreme to one side or the other? Hell no. I mean we can have a political opinion and express it without calling someone names based on theirs...Ride a carbon bike? Try not to use a styrofoam container. Drive a car? Try to carpool sometime. By some of these comments you'd think it's advocating eliminating carbon bike or mountain biking altogether. I hadn't thought much about my impact until the last 10-15 years and I try to minimize it where I can, but still have to drive 30 miles to work. Take one, give one. For the record, I live in California. I just bought an aluminum bike...but would buy a carbon bike if I could except now I'd consider a used one first. Flame on peeps! Try some balance in your life...when you disagree with someone, learn why they believe the way they do instead of bashing...I thought this was a community?!
  • + 1
 I'm originally from Gary, Ind., home of what was the largest steel producing plant in the world for U.S. Steel. There are also a number of other smaller steel mills nearby. Anyone who thinks steel production is easier on the environment than, say, carbon, is sadly mistaken and has never seen the warm, red glow of a coke plant on a humid, cloud-covered night. Or smelled the burning mixture of coke and iron ore wafting in the western breeze.
  • + 2
 +1 for this, I worked in those mills when I graduated before moving into the Wind Energy genertaion industry. Working in the region or living there is disgusting because of those mills.

What most of the idiots on this post don't understand is that carbon fiber is just as easily recycled as aluminum and requires a lot less energy in the process. People are also saying its not as strong as metal -- LOL, clearly no engineers in here.
  • + 1
 It's best to think of this issue in terms of your overall environmental footprint. Do we want the industry to adopt best practices with respect to sustainability? Of course. But if you say, for example, ride your bike to work every day, ride your bike to the trail head and home from the trail head most times, buy local when you can and aren't wasteful...don't feel guilty about buying a nice mountain bike (or two).
  • + 1
 really? if anybody is f*cking up the planet its not the bike people whatever I want a steel framed hardtail because of the ride and because my broke ass couldnt afford carbon fiber anyways who gives a shit? we are just animals who are smart enough to enjoy riding bikes so go for a f*cking bike ride drink a beer and be happy
  • + 4
 Changing standards all the time is not sustainable.
  • + 1
 As long as I don't buy carbon or titanium I should be fine. I don't want to have paid for the carbon fiber nano particles in my fish that I eat. Someone else can pay for that.
  • + 0
 The main thing i learned from studying Environmental science is that.... the worlds f*cked. Steven Hawkins seems to think the Earth does have much longer, and hes kinda smart, so i wont be worrying about the impact of the sustainability of my bycling hobby, as A its really not going to make any difference and B its expensive enough (although bike/frames i buy are second hand which is pretty damn eco).



this is not to say i think we should all say f*ck it and start burning fuel like no tomorrow, we might aswell at least try and extend our time here.
  • + 0
 So this insightful perspective is what you managed to glean from a 3 year degree?
  • + 2
 No issue recycling aluminum, just as good or better than over priced plastic frames called carbon! Or go steel mother f ers! ????
  • + 1
 This is not earths first rodeo she will sort us out sooner or later,, side note there are a lot of planets in the Goldie zone we could to use the all carbon to build fo heavy lift crafts..
  • + 1
 I just don't see the advantages of carbon being worth the impact it has/will have on the planet....stiffer and lighter but not currently recycled, it just doesn't make sense....

Get a real bike!!
  • + 1
 I can actually handle the whole sustainability thing on my own, I don't need my choice of recreation forcing down my throat or guilting me in to some sort of "compliance". It's bigger than the bike/outdoor industry.
  • + 1
 I ride steel hardtails and a steel rigid. Other then the tires, grips, seat and outer cable housing, the rest can be recycled. I have saved nearly every tire I have ever owned because I don't know where they should go.
  • + 1
 Hahahaha thats cute... Couldnt give two *****, sustainability has and likely will never come into my consideration during purchases.
Performance, price and aesthetics, in that order, factor into my bike purchases.
  • + 1
 I love the look of bamboo frames, but I've not been able to find anyone building an even moderately aggressive MTB frame out of the stuff.

Does such a thing as an aggressive bamboo frame actually exist?
  • + 4
 Standardized sizing might help with less waste.
  • + 1
 On any given day here, I can see a dozen $6k superbikes ripping down the trail, but it's rare to see one dude with a shovel doing basic trail repair per month.
  • + 1
 The planet was here, and fine, for a long time before humans existed and it'll be here, and fine, for a long time after we're extinct.
  • + 1
 Was looking at a new RM Altitude and still am, but in alu. Partly because of price and partly because you can't recycle carbon fibre.
  • + 1
 We can do whatever we like and eventually Mother Earth will shake us off, recover and keep on rolling unlike us feeble bicycle riders.
  • + 2
 Great article, you got people talking. Sometimes you idiots at pb impress me.. sometimes.
  • + 1
 Wow.
Lots of f#cks givin in this post about other people opinions.
Typical
Give less f#cks about what everyone else thinks and just do the right thing+ride your fu#$ing bike
  • + 1
 So we are now getting shamed for riding f*cking bikes just to make some progressive a*sholes feel good about themselves?
Stop peddling this bullshit, PB.
  • + 1
 Uuuh f*ck yeah we should give 2f*cks cuz nobody wants to be riding carbon fibre scrap mountain. When it’s gone it’s gone. Smarten the f*ck up
  • + 1
 At least ride aluminum
  • + 2
 I tell myself the reason I don't buy carbon is because aluminum is more sustainable... nothing to do with the price.
  • + 3
 C'MON MAN...I don't blast no 2-stroke in the woods!
  • + 1
 Pepole have to buy new for others to buy used. Love to hear people's western culture problems...what bike to buy...what car I drive...where I eat.
  • + 3
 always: METAL IS THE ANSWER.
  • + 1
 Most bikes and frames end up in the bin because of damn new standards. Even a cracked bike rides better than no bike. Go ride your fucking bike!!!!
  • + 1
 I like my frames to be built from metal forged from the furnaces of hell, is that environmentally friendly enough for you hippy?
  • + 3
 Metal bikes...Still kick ass.
  • + 1
 Strapping batteries and motors to them probably doesn't help, but correct me if I'm wrong.
  • - 1
 Ahhhhh the sky is falling. Let's pay more taxes to fix it. The green movement is what we have to replace cold war fear of the Russians and the wests move away from religion.
  • + 1
 let me know when someone comes up with a full DH rig made of bamboo with a price tag below $4k, then ill care
  • + 2
 I definitely care about sustainability when it comes to my man parts.
  • + 1
 99% of people on the trail: wearing plastic, riding plastic bikes. So the current answer is, "No".
  • + 1
 What about "I couldn't afford to get new bikes anyway, so I get what I can second hand and ride it til it dies"?
  • + 1
 I can afford to buy any new bike I want, but choose to buy used, high-quality aluminum (Knolly) and keep it for a long time. Less Money, more reliable/rebuild able, and more recyclable when the time comes. Pretty sure I would not be having any more fun on the latest plastic wonder-bike.
  • + 3
 Ride steel, pussies Smile
  • + 2
 AND NUKE THE FUCKING WHALES!!!!!!!!!!!
  • + 3
 You got an extra comma there.
  • + 1
 Not sustainable... @Axxe:
  • + 2
 Do old carbon frames really end up in the ocean?
  • + 11
 Yep, sure do. In the next 5 years, it will be impossible to eat cod without a bit of headtube in it.
  • + 1
 It's worth pointing out that that's more a result of Chinese manufacture and less a trait of carbon fiber materials.
  • + 2
 No Carbon bike
Only alu frame and steel)))
  • + 1
 In a world where the political climate is hotter than the sun, is interesting to see pink bike throw a gallon of gas on.
  • + 2
 I suspect there are a lot of people telling porkies in this poll.
  • + 0
 The planet is why I ride aluminum, I do it for the recycle-ability of it not because I'm a broke PhD student... now I can feel smug on my clapped out 2003 hardtail...
  • + 3
 oh steel is realSmile
  • + 1
 Don't worry about Carbon much bigger issues will take us all down long term
  • + 1
 "I just buy whatever I want and don't consider the impact" = I voted for Trump
  • + 1
 Most of this BS is BS designed to make snowflakes feel good. It got no real tangible impact on fuck all.
  • + 3
 Are you one of those muppets that voted for trump?
  • + 3
 @Ryanfitz81: Triggered I see.

No, little warrior, I vote libertarian. But I am so happy to see all the little liberals here in CA squirm and moan.
  • + 1
 ride metal bikes...that alone helps
  • + 1
 Sustainability is a delusion.
  • + 1
 Sick bicycles rant about sustainability whilst offering global shipping.
  • + 1
 And...
  • + 1
 So who makes the best aluminum frame these days?
  • + 1
 Knolly IMHO, but Canfield and Banshee are also worth a look.
  • + 1
 The truth is that we don't care. True conviction influences action.
  • - 1
 Sustainability is about how the bike industry can keep making money! The bike prices jumped from $3K to $10K in less than a year!
  • + 0
 This questionnaire is shocking. Shame on you pinkbike. The social engineering is disgusting
  • + 1
 I only buy used cast off gear. So I can have my cake and eat it too?
  • + 2
 Virtue. Signaling.
  • + 1
 Would love to ride that bamboo whip around town!
  • + 1
 That Bamboo frame is seriously killer though.... want...
  • + 1
 Nah fam.
  • + 1
 we are all going to die.
  • - 1
 I ride 2008 Reign. I give a f**** or two.
  • + 0
 cunts
  • - 1
 Trump is president and you guys care about sustainability....
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