Pinkbike Poll: Fashion or Function?

Dec 3, 2016
by Paul Aston  
I was truly shocked this week at the comment-driven attack on this new bike from UK brand, ARBR. I saw a prototype in the flesh three years ago, and I thought it looked stunning: part Honda, part Zerode, part spaceship. This week saw the Saker come into fruition with the official press release; the first time we were able to delve into the facts and numbers of this unique machine. I had conversed previously with Robert Barr/Arbr and was anxious to see his dream coming to reality. When the PR arrived in my inbox, I envisaged the article erupting through the internet with welcoming and envious comment.

We can only imagine that Robert has spent years discharging blood, sweat, and tears into the process of bringing the Saker to market. It's likely he's invested a serious wedge out of his own pocket, sacrificed countless hours of time, late nights and weekends to deliver to you his dream, his baby, his vision, and his artistic sculpt of material. If you believe the PR, there is a huge catalog of history, research, knowledge, expertise, and testing that has created a bike Robert confides in to give the ultimate performance.

But, f*** all that – short tempered, keyboard bashing warriors did not hold back, cold hearted bastards with not a care in the world. A tirade of abuse directed at this voiceless chassis because many people deemed that it "didn't look very nice." Some comments were so harsh, that if pronounced face to face to a fellow human being would result in a frontispiece more grotesque than their language.


side view - painted
Perhaps I am one in a million. I like the stance, moto inspiration, and carbon curves. More importantly, I can't wait to take it to the trail head to find out more.


I have always carried a flame of hope that we were inside the sports and performance world, but these wretched words embossed confirmation on a deep suspicion – that we are truly in the fashion industry. Comments flowed with zero know of how it may perform on the trail. Just imagine if the Saker turned out to be the fastest, most efficient, lightest, best handling, most playful and grippy bike in the world. The perfect fit and geometry for every rider in every instance. A bike that makes the impossible possible and turns the MTB world on its head. What if?

This would dish up some fast-food dinners of grisly words, or would it? Maybe people do only care what it looks like, maybe we are in the fashion industry? The carpark and cafe becoming catwalk, covering up truths that lay hidden out on the trails.


Thanks for keeping the Euro in Eurobike.
Is the annual fashion show at Eurobike the only fashion show at the event?


Personally, I am more interested in performance, where a bike allows me to go, the feedback it delivers into my nervous system from the trail. You cannot regard the bike from a perfect tangent at 90º when you're shredding root and rock, blood diluted by adrenaline and eyes focussed on the next ridge, precipice or clinch.

This boils down to the question – do you buy your bikes and products based on looks?

How do you choose your bikes and products? Do you favor fashion or function?







468 Comments

  • + 316
 Function for sure is more important but you can't get mad at people for also caring about how something looks. Especially as the price goes up the more looks will come into it, regardless of the function. Bikes are becoming like cars sort of. If the PT Cruiser was the fastest car ever it would still look like shit, and people would say it too.
  • - 69
flag stefanfresh (Dec 3, 2016 at 10:53) (Below Threshold)
 Hey Paul Aston, don´t you think you shouldn´t be calling your users bastards?
  • + 122
 @JonJonM. Nail on head. People buy sports cars based on their looks more than anything. After all you can't legally drive them at their intended performance levels day to day. Just like most riders won't ride a high end carbon bike to its limits. Taste and design matters.
That bike may ride awesome buts it's not great looking which, if I'm honest, would stop me from buying it.
It would serve manufacturers well to read the comment sections of sites like this. You have a free and very honest focus group. Too bad you're butt hurt about it Paul Aston.
  • + 10
 That picture of the guys and gals all dressed up at the bike fashion show has the word EURO written all over it.
  • + 80
 @stefanfresh: Have you read the comments on the site lately? I'd say he's pretty accurate and the culture of keyboard trolls on this site with they're hate directed towards, innovation, expensive parts, or anything else that's been posted is pretty disappointing.

Serious readers and commenters are looking elsewhere for content and conversation as pinkbike has been overrun by haters, troll, and jealous scrubs.
  • + 87
 If I'm spending thousands on a bike I want to be able to look at it and appreciate how nice it looks. Looking at a nice bike makes me want to ride. For the money most of us spend on equipment there is no excuse for it not functioning well.
  • + 56
 All you have to do is look at a ferrari or a porsche and realize we can have both.
  • + 46
 @J-McBride: While I agree with your statement there is no excuse for abuse some of the users here allow themselves to hurl at others for the most minor of reasons. Stating that you don't like the look of something is one thing but being abusive while doing it is different matter all together.
  • + 33
 Looks like a session
  • + 41
 @Kamba6: totally agree mate. The schoolboy bullshit on this site has turned me away from what was once my favourite mtb site. I used to like it not just for the up to date info on equipment and riding /racing but also for peoples constructive views. Real life accounts from users of equipment etc is what people are looking for here not bandwagon jumping immature rude responses that serve no purpose WHATSOEVER. I day do away with the whole upvote/downvote thing as its often a starting point for the petty squabbling. Dont get me wrong im all for healthy discussion but when it becomes personal, as it often does on here, it is not on! Cyberbullying at its best (or should i say its worst) on here! Comments in chat rooms should be educational and informative. Done.
  • + 12
 just one question.... wheres the gear box?!
  • + 50
 The problem with this frame is simple, it is designed purely by an engineer(I would assume) where an aesthetic designer could have made it more beautiful without taking away any of the functionality. This looks to me like it was designed by, well... a formula 1 suspension designer(yes i know, it was). A very smart engineer no doubt, but not an artist. If you want to come into the market with all guns blazing, you need to check what the market wants. Redalp is a case in point, it is engineered beautifully, but not beautifully engineered(??), the same can be said about all engineering, people want it to be beautiful as well, this is why we hide this type of engineering under car bodies and motorcycle fairings,etc.. if your going to use carbon fibre, you need to show aesthetics that are reminiscent with the times, not like the early 2000's which this ressembles.
Having said all that, I dont think this frame deserves being called ugly, its not up there with the major brands for aesthetics but it certainly is at par or above par with its functionality, but that will need to be proven.
  • + 8
 @samuelthecamel: My one question. Is there a h2o cage mount?
  • + 21
 @o2a6k: dear fellow American friend. Europe is far for you and it might ne difficult to imagine there are so many differences on such small territory. But the word you're looking for is German, not Euro. Though I would bet most Germans would find the mentioned picture ridiculous.
  • + 4
 @Kingdevin: There is no cage mount as far as I can see. That is one of a trail bikes most important features!
  • + 12
 You can't have a truly radical frame design that doesn't look like the norm without people finding it ugly or odd. We have preconceived norms for aesthetics, and this bike doesn't fit them. If this company makes a banger edit with this bike murdering a sick trail, opinions might change though...
  • - 2
 @triptex: Agreed, Too many forum inspired non passionate, even non riders on here.
  • + 33
 Until the bike is actually tested, we don't even have a the function aspect to judge.
This is all about a press release, that has nothing to give but fashion (and producer's opinion)
  • + 25
 @paulaston was shocked? Welcome to pinkbike. I think the negativity was way over the top, but it's not shocking if you've spent much time here. I knew what the top comment would be about before I read it.
  • + 7
 @gtill9000: Or Unno.
  • + 1
 @samuelthecamel: and the battery and the electric motor.
  • + 7
 @bhd13: Sure, but the commentary has gotten rather childish to say the least.

When I saw this bike I texted my brother with the picture stating that we need to each get one. I was so excited coming from the days of the Honda and always wishin Mountain Cycle would update their geometries.

For me, bikes like this and the Unno are not super bikes. They are hyper bikes...and not strictly on the basis of performance alone. They're limited, exclusive, and exotic. Personally, I find that aspect really intriguing and I hope to be on one of these at some point. I wish them luck.
  • + 14
 Only 33 people clicked on "fashion only" myself included. Some dishonest and delusional homies on here.
  • + 19
 @radrider: right on, this is a bike designed by an engineer without an eye for design. It's plain ugly, there's no other way to say it. And it's not just subjective. Its ugliness can be quantified by the incoherent design choices (or lack thereof) which appear all over the frame. Also unfortunate that it appeared around the same time as Unno, which is the exact opposite. Designed with form AND beauty, it looks like an organic stealth weapon ready to pounce while the Saker is an agricultural device ready to plow the fields
  • + 10
 I read: "[...] to deliver to you his dream, his baby, his vision, and his autistic sculpt of material" - and totally lost it.
Was I the only one?
Sorry, I couldn't resist to post this... even though I was one of the few who tried to stop people from insulting in the original article lol
  • + 3
 @radrider: "it is designed purely by an engineer(I would assume) where an aesthetic designer could have made it more beautiful without taking away any of the functionality. This looks to me like it was designed by, well... a formula 1 suspension designer"

Has it ever occurred to you that this is exactly what some people might like and want?
If you're designing a niche product, there's no such thing as "the market". Look at cars; there's Lamborghini with its sharp edges that looks almost like a stealth plane or a spaceship and there's Porsche with its smooth almost organic curves. They couldn't be any different, yet both have their fans.
  • + 8
 @Extremmist: Well judging by the current feedback I would say not many people like this aesthetic... you compare Lamborghini and Porsche, but those are not engineered aesthetics, those are aesthetics designed to look beautiful/fast/powerful... with "some" aerodynamic engineering influencing the design.
If you like this design, cool. I dont think its too bad but I think the styling is very dated, which is why there has been so much hate. The functionality could be amazing, and that is what might sell this to people looking for function over form.
  • + 9
 People are getting all het up here going on about trolls and childish etc. The reality is that most folks seem to not like the look of this bike. Myself included. It might be amazing with tons of R and D but thats not enough these days. I look at that and see old school monocoque frames like the Oranges that used to rattle echo badly. I see the old BMW bikes or Porsche ones. It looks old and out dated. If you told me the the best new forks looked like my old Marzocchi DH3s I would not buy them. Everyday IMB have a 'hot or not' pop up on Facebook. This site makes a thing about colours all the time. 'This dropper is good because it has a black stanchion Etc etc. Everything about life is fashion oriented from your craft ales and fancy trail coffees to your stem length, hipster beards, etc. I wish the company well and I am sure it looks better in real life.
  • - 2
 @triptex: fu@kin A...+
  • - 2
 @triptex: FU..... "A"
  • + 19
 Dear authors at Pinkbike, Keep the troll articles coming. This shit is great. Sincerely, Session603
  • - 2
 @radrider: While there's quite some industrial design going into sports cars, same cannot be said for stealth fighter jets that they try to resemble. Some kind of engineering will always lead to a design that looks cool, i dont think for example the specialized enduro X-Wing is just more weight to look cool, it's just one solution of a complex problem.
  • + 8
 @SickEdit: the x wing has ALOT of industrial design to make the functionality look good. A stealth fighter(I assume you mean the F-117) I can almost guarantee has industrial design implemented to make it appear as intimidating as possible without reducing the effectiveness of its stealth technology.

You have to ask yourself, what is this frame design bringing to the table that is unique? A single pivot with an idler pulley, its been done before...
What this company seems to be bringing to the table is a high quality of manufacturing, and that is of-course worth something..But they need to hire an industrial designer.
  • + 10
 @radrider: I think that's incorrect. Nicolai frames are designed by an engineer, they are pure function and that's part of their aesthetic. This has had just enough design put into it that it's not purely function, but the aesthetic is very polarising.

I'm trying to buy the girlfriend a bike, and one question I ask her is "do you see yourself riding it". It's gotta inspire you to ride first and foremost. Aesthetic has its place, but nobody is ever going to agree on it. I remember Vernon Felton saying that the Evil Uprising looked hideous, but that thing gets me to full mast. Horses for courses.
  • + 16
 @radrider: it is everything you said compounded by how the bike was launched. I assume the folks behind this bike know all too well how aesthetically oriented consumers are in the market... having an engineering-driven development approach and seeing it as a serious opportunity implies that one believes current designs are limited to a degree by consumer aesthetic requirements. This isn't the first bike design to be shredded on a web site based on pictures or the words chosen in the copy for that matter. Launching into this market with an engineering driven design means you have to show the benefits of the engineering to get over the possible aesthetic backlash. But this launch was all words and pictures. All the reader had to go by was aesthetics. No professional testimonials, no proven results and not even a video showing the bike in action. If you can't see that the profile and lines at a distance resemble what one would expect if Huffy tried to design a monocoque frame in '94 you're either too close to the project or endearingly objective. Having the first image being a stark contrast studio shot is a significant marketing fail, a terrible first impression, which may well prove to be very unfortunate if the bike design is as good as it could be in action. I'm not trying to be a dick and add to the fire, but it's a fair criticism. They took the painstaking time to hand rear, raise, butcher and prepare what could well have been the best steak ever served, but threw it in front of us on a styrofoam plate. It's really unfortunate.
  • + 2
 Humans, for the most part are visual creatures.
Fashion has taken a cultural hold on our visual desires. Fashion is an industry based on our desires that our eyes be pursuaded. We've been doing this from the beginning. Look at art throughout history. We use naked bodies and elements of nature that are in style at the time and put them on walls and buildings throughout time. Big boobs and ass in the past, boy butts now for woman in porn. We buy things that persuad our eyes. That's fashion. That's capitalism. The best companies can do that while making it functional. This bike might have not done the beautiful part for all while engineering it perfect. They just might have s smaller market?
  • + 8
 "Bad Pinkbike users! Bad dog!" Paul Aston, probably.
  • + 10
 One day I made a thread on reddit that snarkily dissed the PT cruiser. That shit hit the front page and got 10k replies, people shared the most humiliating stories ever and the most touching stories ever about those god forsaken cars. My life achievements have all been downhill from there, brief internet fame didn't even get me laid.
  • + 37
 You haven't even tried it yet! Enough with the what ifs. It's ugly as f*ck, when did mountain bikers become such easily offended wieners? Just because you won't write a bad review anymore doesn't mean we can't.
  • + 4
 @eurojuice: I agree on the commentary. I'll bet over 95% of the commentors wouldn't buy it no matter what it looked like. The comments seem to go mega positive or negative depending on the article; predictable as if written by clones.
I'm not in the market for a hyper bike, but am interested to read how ARBR performs.
  • + 3
 @bhd13: Yeah because it's ugly. An for those who think it is, have that right to say so with people being butt hurt cry babies like you and Paul.
  • + 3
 Saw this poll coming 3 comments in
  • + 1
 @OFF2theGYM: Go on with your bad (predictable) self... Pick a side, and be a dick about it.
On the other thread I said I thought it looked like an e-bike. Still, I'm interested to see how well it works.
  • + 6
 @bhd13: Well of course, we all are. Though at this point, I just know it's going to get a good review... just so we can be "taught a lesson". How good it really is, no one will really know, because no one will buy that 5-6k dollar ugly frame and give us their unbiased opinion... and that's a fact.

Whens the last time PB gave any bike a true honest hard review and actually recommended consumers instead go with a different model? Every bike review generally has the same conclusion on PB.
  • + 2
 @radrider: agree with this.. Also there simply is just more material where there doesn't need to be more material when looking at the frame. It just looks over built.. I'll give points for doing something different design wise but not just for the sake of it.
  • + 7
 @OFF2theGYM: And this is exactly why I demo every ride I'm interested in potentially purchasing... Reviews are written like fairy tales nowadays..
  • + 1
 I think the picture and components are not doing this frame justice, The bike looks like it has been shot slightly higher that most side of shots and thats squished the look of it a little, and I understand they're making it all about the frame but if the bike was pictured with better looking wheels, tyres, forks and cranks with some decals not to many (As todays marketing is horrible on some products) it would soften the look of the frame overall, also if you throw a coil shock on there or something that doesn't have gold on it I think that would help.

Its going to be interesting to see how it rides but I'm guessing its going to be great, people these days just prefer a trophy whore while they are out and about so they can show off but behind close doors it gives them nothing in return just a hard time.
  • + 1
 @radrider: Nailed it. We really shouldn't shit all over this frame design. These guys worked hard and It's not THAT bad. On the flip side: Yeti, Evil, Canyon, Ibis and Trek are good examples of bike makers that produce insanely beautiful designs that also function incredibly well. Some frames are like works of art that inspire you to go ride by just looking at them. This bike looks pure function which is fine as long as it delivers. I believe it's difficult for some to get past some of the thicker forms on it and I'm wondering if a lot of these visoral comments are more sever due to the insanely expensive price ($5490). In any case, I feel bad for the engineers and designers. PB comments can be hella harsh. On a side note, the frame looks a little better on some of the other websites. I think the stock white background photos used on PB did not help. www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/Prototype-Carbon-Enduro-Bike-from-the-UK-Arbr-Saker,9483/Prototype-Carbon-Enduro-Bike-from-the-UK-Arbr-Saker,98821/sspomer,2
  • - 1
 Frame looks like shit. Wouldn't fuck it with your dicks. Let alone spend my own money on the frame.
  • + 1
 @gonecoastal: you stick your dick in your bike?
  • + 3
 @blackthorne: I could not agree more! While I appreciate function over form it clear to see that if I was looking for exotic frames then as you stated unno deliver on both! In my eyes the unno is probably the best looking bike out there! It seems to be able to offer the best of both worlds!
I ride a mojo Geometron so it's safe to say that while I personally like the way it looks it is definitely a function first bike
  • + 1
 @radrider: Considering the price, I would not say this is a bike for many...
  • + 5
 @radrider: Beautiful engineered things usually look beautiful. Look at any great building, bridge, piece of furniture or car. They are also simple and not overly complicated. For me this bike just doesn't look right. Compare it with Starling Bikes which have beautiful clean lines.
  • + 0
 @fartymarty: 1. You can't compare a carbon frame to a steel frame, they will always look different.
2. Do you think everyone likes Starling Bikes? That nobody looks at the straight round steel tubes and says "WTF is this 1990?"
  • - 1
 @Extremmist: now you're just being contrarian. Stick to the plot and don't be a jerk!
  • + 1
 @gtill9000: Porsches - particularly the 911 - are pug-ugly.
  • - 2
 Arsehole. "Euro" is no more a "thing" than ""parochial, ignorant, piece-of-cloth-worshipping dickhead" is.

Oh - hang on...
  • + 1
 "And it's not just subjective."

OF COURSE it's subjective.
  • + 2
 "Well judging by the current feedback I would say not many people like this aesthetic"

Because the article - and the feedback it's generating - are self-selecting.

Bet the feedback would be VERY different of the question was:

"who wants one of these for free as a long-term tester you can keep?"
  • + 2
 "I look at that and see old school monocoque frames like the Oranges that used to rattle echo badly."

Modern Orange bikes are AT LEAST as ugly as this thing - they still sell, because they're a great ride.
  • - 1
 @robwhynot:

Good God - PARAGRAPHS, FFS!
  • + 35
 I think its quite odd for a journalist to react in this way, but I suppose journalists are detatched from real consumer life when they get sent custom Robot Bike builds to test and other such hugely expensive machinery - Paul, remember we pay for our bikes, there are a number of factors that have caused this type of negative discussion, open your eyes:

- Cost; £4300 is an obscene cost for a bicycle frame, you defend it but could you afford one yourself?!
- The unknown; the company and designer are new to the bike industry, are we expected to just believe that the frame is brilliant just because they say so?
- The aesthetic IS unusual, ugly perhaps and does not scream out 'refinement' like the Unno or other top carbon frames.

On a final point, you seem to be getting upset that an inanimate object has been the subject of criticism, you are meant to be a journalist and your response is almost as bad as some of the criticism itself 'cold bastards'?
  • - 2
 @gonecoastal: "Wouldn't f*ck it with your dicks"

Presume that's because you lack one of your own?
  • - 3
 @blackthorne: He's not being contrarian - he's precisely right.
  • + 7
 @KeithReeder: orange bikes also sell because they are not £4300
  • + 2
 The problem is all the new bikes and new suspension are all good as each other so the only real deciding factor is the way it looks! The industrial looking bikes stopped being made around early 2000 I guess the designer thought they would be like drainpipe jeans and come back in fashion!!!

I'm sure as a bike manufacturer you would do some r&d and see what works for your intended target audience not just design a bike and try and hope to sell it as this is the worst business model I have ever heard of bizarre
  • + 3
 @o2a6k: Why do you think so? Because it is not red, white and blue?
  • + 4
 @o2a6k: you can easily tell it's not in the US....the average BMI is less than 40.
  • + 1
 Edit: double post
  • + 1
 @slowrider73: I'd be lying if I said I didn't read the comments on these articles but like any section it's always the haters that feel the need to rant, most sensible adults can read and move on with their interesting lives. The bike is not the prettiest to be fair.
  • + 8
 @triptex: The bike in question looks like crap. Just because I say it looks like crap doesn't mean I'm trolling. I don't care how many hours, days , weeks, months, years, it took buddy to build (his) dream bike because it's not my dream bike. It seriously looks like a shitty e bike and I think that's half the problem. It just looks like a big chunk of carbon fiber on wheels, if that tickles your fancy good for you but it doesn't tickle mine!!!
  • + 3
 @OFF2theGYM: sure you have a right to say it's ugly, but what does it achieve? This is the problem with the all forums and comment boards. If the topic doesn't interest you, let the conversation carry on amongst those who are interested. We all think other people need to know how we feel about things so we share our opinion. The truth though is no one cares about your opinion. If you don't like the topic of any article, move on and have a productive discussion about something that engages you. Get over yourselves fellow interneters, your opinions aren't special.
  • + 1
 @Takeshi194: based on that useless of a comment it makes sense. Much easier to do when you are 7 years old. You know, smaller and whatnot.
  • + 2
 @Extremmist: exactlyrics! It's the rule of 10. 3 people gonna like it, 3 people gonna hate, 4 don't give a shit.
  • + 2
 @KeithReeder: Case in point, instead of discussing the point you criticize the form. Thanks for proving my point
  • - 2
 why would one care if people thought it ugly or not?
  • + 1
 @VwHarman: the only problem here is I can barely find a single person who likes the bike, kind of hard to continue a discussion in this situation.
  • + 1
 @schlockinz: 100% bang on. Look at Alta Motors' launch of their edit bike as a comparison. While not suffering from an aesthetic design issue, they knew the market would automatically be against them outside of early adopters and insiders. So the launch comes out with pro endorsement and an all or nothing demonstration of performance. If they had launched with an article only it would have been brushed off as a joke to think an broke could hold its own against gassers.
  • + 3
 @Racer951: I think the number of people that like or don't like this bike is kind of irrelevant. The point of this article is that it's not OK to go out of your way to be rude and offensive just because you don't like the look of something. If one really feel the need to express their dislike of something, there are plenty of civilised ways to do so without being offensive.
  • + 3
 If my underwear don't match my handlebars I'm not going riding!
  • + 1
 @fecalmaster: so you run brown all the time?!
  • + 2
 @Extremmist: I'm interested to know why you think you can't compare bikes made of different materials.... Of course you can.

Also straight steel tubes are timeless whether you want to believe it or not.

Once this carbon phase has passed and we have moved on to 3D pinting metals people will still be welding steel tubes to make bike frames. Why... because it is a timeless art form.
  • - 1
 @Extremmist: and for the record I like a lot of the ideas behind the bike (high pivot with idler and linkage driven shock) but wasn't keen on the geometry or aesthetic - both of which could be easily fixed.

I agree the criticism was harsh but maybe it would have been better to release the bike following a couple of glowing reviews.

Add a gearbox and I would certainly be keeping an eye on them.
  • - 5
flag Treze (Dec 4, 2016 at 10:23) (Below Threshold)
 @Dustfarter: Explain the Nissan GTR then...
  • + 1
 @Takeshi194: all the time! Why I still run 1.5" head tube frames
  • + 2
 @fartymarty: "I'm interested to know why you think you can't compare bikes made of different materials"
Because it's practically impossible to achieve this shape with steel and vice versa.

@Racer951: "I can barely find a single person who likes the bike"
Perhaps it's because everyone who said something positive about it got downvoted...
  • + 1
 @Extremmist: A bike is a bike, they come in different shapes and forms. They can all be compared.

Personally I like tubes - Steel, Aluminium, Carbon (Robot Bike) and the simplicity of them However I can see the benefits of carbon and the organic shapes that can be formed with it.

If I am looking at a bike I take it as a whole, not just based on it's material.
  • + 2
 @triptex: @triptex: I'm with you on that for sure. I still think the pinkbike community is awesome, and I love the threads that go crazy on puns and good-natured jokes that bring out the best/humorous/easy going side of what makes this sport so amazing and personable to me. There can be a lot of truth hidden in those comments and I still find a lot of useful perspectives here.

That said, I think balanced perspectives are key. Kookiness is a key historical element to mtb characters and bikes alike. If you crack a joke about the looks of a bike, acknowledge the insane amount of hard work and guts that went into creating something different (am I the only one who misses bikes like this??). It was def sad to see the same good people who plead for something different decide to rip a bike to shreds because it is finally, truly different. I'm all for a community-wide dose of lighten-the-F-up.
  • + 3
 Guys, this is simply a commercial of this bike. The more you talk about it, the more will be sold, simple as that. Days of naive marketing in MTB are gone. Sites like this, bloggers etc. this is all new, smarter marketing. Why do you think you can still comment under such articles? Because it generates page views. So, do not be sorry Robert, because he will be fine, probably much richer than a dentist in a few years. And do not believe that someone spent many years constructing carbon frame (function over form? and a premium carbon frame, please...) and it's looks were not carefully designed. This frame was meant to be controversial and the desired effect was achieved in 200%.
  • + 1
 @Kamba6: just for clarity I agree with your point and have never been abusive towards anybody regarding their view. My comment may of just been placed badly in the order above.
How somebody regards form over function is probably routed in how serious they are about riding and in that respect everybody differs. If I was a keen racer I would probably disregard form in the persuit of performance improvements.
  • + 2
 @o2a6k: please refrain any euro mocking for at least until Nov. 2020 or an impeachment procedure succeeds, whatever comes first.
  • + 1
 @J-McBride: I never said your comments were abusive. I was simply making a point that some people here think that having a similar opinion to the one you expressed, i.e. not particularly liking the look of something, gives them an automatic right to abuse the product and the persons behind it.
  • + 0
 @gtill9000: aside from the top tier from both those cars (especially Porsche) aren't that fast.
  • + 1
 @o2a6k: #europro IS a thing. Embrace it.
  • + 1
 @bohns1: Lol exactly, same here.
  • + 2
 @Kamba6: I get your point and I agree completely but unfortunately it's a general problem in the "internet age" regardless of the platform or topic and a journalist should know this better. The only solution for Pinkbike would be to police/moderate/disable the comments because the whining will generate even more of this.
  • + 1
 @powpowpow: haha I would remind you however that less than half of Mericans voted for him.
  • + 3
 @endlessblockades: which makes for only 61 million people who voted for him! Reassuring really Wink
  • + 1
 @EnduroManiac: Damn your logic! We're doomed.
  • + 2
 I like to go for function especially if you have two good looking bikes I'd pick the one I thought would suit me best. However if something is fugly, all the function in the world would'nt put it on my list of bikes to consider. Take the prius for example, awesome functionality and fuel economy but looks like $#^t. Unless given one I would never drive one.
  • + 1
 @triptex: by serious readers and commenters; you are referring to whom? You are still looking at Pinkbike for content and conversation...
  • + 2
 @fartymarty: You didn't get my point. Yeah, you can have a good steel endure bike and good carbon endure bike. But because of the material, the frame will never look the same.
  • + 0
 @fartymarty: spoke to mcewan on tryin to get a ble stateside. cool as hell bike.
  • + 2
 @radrider: i could imagine the front frame to look a bit more like the spezialised stump jumper, but still i find that this bike clearly shows that it got some stuff up its sleves
  • + 2
 @o2a6k: No offense taken, YANK
  • + 93
 Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and they are just that: opinions. But oh wait, its 2016 and you can't say anything that might offend someone...
  • + 60
 Exactly, author comes off as a whiney little bitch. If you like it, buy it. If someone doesn't because it's ugly that's there choice to make. Stop being so butt hurt.
  • + 43
 @ScottW511: No one has a problem with you stating an opinion, but you don't have to be a dick about it.
  • + 22
 @ScottW511: you're a shining example of what the author is talking about.
  • + 3
 @ScottW511: dont listen to this two. thing is ugly as f*ck and this is probably some sort of stunt because they paid for the article and it went downhill.
  • + 32
 One of the very few good things about the internet is its honesty. Athough sometimes brutal, it is the opinion you won't get from your friends or family.
Like it or not, it's a great tool for marketing/sales teams to gather a sample audience for new products. Especially in Pinkbike's case as it has a global reach.
If you don't want people to do this don't have a comments section.
It's that simple
  • + 27
 People forget what happens when you get offended. Absolutely nothing. Some folks need to learn how to pull up their pantaloons and move on.
  • + 8
 @brandonf Of course, opinions are opinions. By implication we might offend others. So far, so obvious.
From the article, the author isn't against opinions, nor offending others. He's against people going out of their way to offend, and there are more than a few comments on that particular article referred to that do just that.

@SacAssassin People forget what being basically decent towards others is sometimes and instead hide behind words like, honesty. Before shitting on others, maybe pull your pantaloons up.
  • + 4
 Basically we should shut up if we have nothing good to say but then PB will not get as many daily views and its comment section would loose its credibility in gauging market acceptance. Imagine these guys hears just praises on PB and went a head with production and did nothing to mitigate. It's like having mates who tell you how good you are in jumping street curbs and expecting you to show up at dirt merchant next morning. Maybe it rips I don't know. I'll shut up now.
  • - 3
 @AlexS1: You just don't get it dude, do you? No one is saying you should share your opinion, but try and be polite about it. Whether you like the product or not, there's a nice way of stating that as opposed to going out of your way to be rude and offensive.
  • - 5
flag KeithReeder (Dec 4, 2016 at 1:16) (Below Threshold)
 "But oh wait, its 2016 and you can't say anything that might offend someone..."

So in essence you're saying everyone can have an opinion as long as it agrees with yours?
  • - 4
flag KeithReeder (Dec 4, 2016 at 1:23) (Below Threshold)
 @jimmyconnors: "He's against people going out of their way to offend"

Scientists have proven a strong link between that behaviour and microscopic testicles, y'know...
  • - 3
 @AlexS1: "Basically we should shut up if we have nothing good to say..."

You've really overdosed on your Stupid pills this morning, haven't you?

(Just sharing my opinion, y'know...)
  • - 3
 @ScottW511: Come on, why call him a "whiney little bitch"? That's not appropriate. And indeed, people, including me, are way too fast in throwing out harsh feedback, just for a quick "thumbs-up".

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion but it should still respect the thoughts and efforts of others!
  • + 1
 @KeithReeder: Sorry, I've forgotten to sugar coat the keyboard. U should too.
  • + 1
 @Kamba6: What you said is correct in general but my comments were rude? Really?
  • + 5
 I think it is ugly and it's perfectly possible for a bike to be incredible functionally and drop dead sexy at the same time. So...fashion often sways me since I know there are so many bikes that are very high performing. Function first...but I draw the line way before this bike!
  • - 1
 @jimmyconnors: go get another participation trophy lol ScottW511 is spot on.
  • + 2
 @ScottW511: the tough guy stance is goofy token though. If you don't like the bike, then don't talk about it. Acting like your personal opinion should inform the entire industry on what is and isn't a viable product kind of defines being a whiny little bitch, no?
  • + 4
 @jimmyconnors: nailed it! Basic decency is lost on the Internet. It's why I quit Facebook, and eventually will be why I am done with this site as well. Being nice doesn't make you a pussy. Being a double does make you a double though.
  • + 1
 @AlexS1: I never said your comment was rude. I was responding to what I read as your defence or at least excusing of the rude comment in the original article.
  • + 1
 @Tamasz: An its cool for him to call us bastards?
  • + 64
 If you develop a product for years on end without even considering how people will receive it then don't be surprised when it comes out looking like an overworked tortured nightmare. Any experienced designer knows you prototype and test religiously before releasing anything to the public
  • + 16
 Years of Engineering have taught me "if it looks right it probaby is right". That bike didn't look right. Compare with the Unno which looked right.
  • + 3
 Possible they felt the aesthetics were good? Just a thought...
  • + 2
 @VwHarman: I agree, personally, I like the way the bike doesn't have another bike that looks just like it, I agree that it look pretty cool.
  • + 1
 @VwHarman: I don't think its unfixable though. At least the ideas were right.
  • + 2
 Stevie Wonder designed the bike.
  • + 1
 Having looked at it a bit more it's growing on me. There are better pictures on the Dirt website - maybe they just take better pictures...
  • + 54
 If you're spending that much money on a high end bike, I don't think you should have to choose between form or function - especially when there are plenty of options on the market that nail both. That said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and bike snobs are the dark side of mountainbiking.
  • + 17
 When you fork over that much money, what really matters is that you like the bike. If you like the way it looks, cool. If you don't care about the looks because it rides like a dream, cool. In the end, just be happy with your bike eh
  • + 3
 @medievalbiking

great point - there are plenty of very capable bikes that also look great.
  • + 47
 f*ck you pink bike. We are allowed an opinion whether you agree with it or not. That bikes horrible looking. Horrible. In my opinion.
Probably the worse bit of journalism I've read on this site and I've been a "reader" for some time.
  • + 42
 Criticizing PB over user opinions on a post where PB is asking for user opinions hurts my brain.
  • + 14
 yeah pinkbike each time feels less like rider driven and pointing more towards the we can sell your product side.
  • + 6
 @Sardine: The author also states his opinion in no uncertain terms.
  • + 3
 My vote for worst PB article ever goes to the sniveling masterpiece Cunningham wrote "are you prepared or are you a parasite".
  • + 24
 @fercho25: Truth. I read this article as Paul Aston saying sorry to the manufacturer, because he still wants his free industry swag.
  • + 13
 It makes it hard to really take the site seriously if the authors are so preoccupied with the feelings of the bike manufacturers being hurt by our comments. That bike is so goddam ugly I would never buy one. If You're gonna try and push reviews of clothing & bikes you select without asking what we want reviewed then you get to deal with the pushback. You don't get to tell us what we like.
  • + 12
 @paulaston , you supplied the rope. Pinkbike pulled the lever.
  • + 8
 @Sardine: it was also a bizarre survey... like no shit consumers want functionality and beauty. Who actively seeks out one and avoids the other? It's like asking someone to choose between ordering a combo meal with only water, only food, or both
  • + 3
 @Antron: I remember that one, Cunningham got torn to pieces in the comments section. I think PB may have even deleted the whole article
  • + 2
 @Murph86: Haha! They would have done themselves good to delete it. It was just shouting, "I'm a grumpy old man!".
  • + 38
 While I think the bike looks pretty cool, and I'd love to give it a try it's important to remember that in any community (especially on the faceless internet) that respect is earned not given. Yes the owners backstory more than qualifies him as a credible designer, and yes having the bike built in Britain in impressive but to the majority of users here the bike has no reference point. Without having ever touched, ridden, or seen the bike in person we are relying on a few simple pictures and your word that the bike is a game-changer. And that's not how people work. Its true they could be a little less nasty but on the flip-side its ridiculous to think that by simply posting a bike that really doesn't push any new boundaries is reason enough for the community to "erupt with welcoming and envious comment." (sic)

And finally the reason people resort to the look of the bike is that they literally have no other information about the bike on which to base their opinion. Until people in real life see them, ride them, and buy them all companies are going to have to deal with the "all I know is that it's ugly" argument especially should they have no history of producing good bikes (Trek et al.).

One last thing: If you think this guy got bashed hard go take a look at the Spec. Demo 8 Alum article released at about the same time. That received just as much if not more hate for exactly the same sorts of reasons.
  • + 7
 I was just about to chime in in a thread further up, but you pretty much nailed it.

Why does it really matter how folk express their opinion anyway? Some will be nasty, some apologetic, what difference does that make? Very different people, very different manners.
You could've chosen only to acknowledge their general yes or no, and let the rest pass.
Riding above it, so to speak.
  • + 2
 You need to multiply the opinion with it's relative importance - example: harshest negative review times pseudo-anon internet person = 0. Chain Reaction rep times really likes it = $$$$$$
So the fact that a bunch of dudes on a mtn bike message board widely gave it a pass - take it with a grain of salt; you're probably not trying to convince people who would otherwise by a trek or specialized.
  • + 27
 While I agree on function over form for the most part, you guys aren't forking out the dollars for this and are paid to write positive articles on everything. This frame looks terrible, is what it is. Whether or not the bike performs fantastic, when you're asking 5.5k usd for a frame that is unproven over a period of time to its durability etc leaves you perfectly open to public criticism. If the frame was 2-3k sure you might give it a go but when you're talking about a massive amount of money for the general public, who wants to drop that on a frame which looks like this does and "might (very big one at that)" perform better based on some data sheet numbers, than another top level frame(sb6c, nomad, s-works etc) that aesthetically all look much better and have tonnes more refinement from their previous models and rider feedback etc. Everyone's entitled to an opinion and there's no way personally I'd drop serious money on a frame that looks like this does.
  • + 4
 I think you (and many others) are not getting it and are looking at it from a wrong angle.
There are many bikes on the market in the 2-3k range and most of them look pretty much the same. So if you want to sell yours for 5.5k, it's imperative that it doesn't look like anything else out there. Because if it does, then everyone could say "why would I spend 5.5k for this bike if that one looks the same and costs half the money?"
This inevitably leads to designs that people either love or hate, people see them and either touch their forehead or their dick.
And if I were designing a bike, I'd choose the same approach. I'd rather have three people love it, and seven people hate it than ten people being indifferent or saying it looks like a Session. Especially if I wasn't planning to sell 10,000 of them.
Look at Nicolai for example. Their prices are similar; many people say they look fugly as if they were welded in a garage and there are others who'd sell a kidney to buy one.

Btw personally I don't think it looks terrible, I'm not saying it's my favorite design, but I've seen much worse, I don't understand all the hate.
  • + 7
 @Extremmist: No I don't think that you as well as the editors understand that there is a third variable which is price for 99% for us. Maybe you're one of the lucky ones that has the money to invest in multiple bikes etc, but if I'm getting one frame/bike then I want it to function awesome and look good because there are many frames out there that have both of these features and at a lower price. If you were designing a bike for such a low percentage of people to like the look of then your business would be struggling or in the ground in this modern world so why bother mass producing instead of making a limited number for you and your friends that share bad taste. By no means am I hating on this frame. I give a tonne of respect to anyone that goes out on a limb and puts the amount of effort into anything whether it's bike related or not, I didn't comment on the original thread for that reason but you have to understand that when you're bringing it to the general public and at a higher price then already brilliant frames you have to be prepared for the potential backlash. When pinkbike writes an article calling the masses out for the hate, that's wrong on their part as much as it is theirs on the original post.
  • + 6
 @Hugh1736: I disagree with your final statement. Paul is calling out people who have deliberately gone out of their way to be offensive about something they didn't consider to be aesthetically pleasing.There is nothing wrong with voicing your opinion. In fact press releases and staged "spy shots" are designed to gauge the popular opinion on a product. However, with all the civilised and polite ways to express your opinion, going out of your way to deliberately be abusive and offensive just because you don't like the look of something is a scummy thing to do.
  • + 1
 @Hugh1736: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This bike doesn't look like anything else you can buy today, which means there will be people who will like it. Again, look at Nicolai. They sell aluminium(!) frames that cost up to 2500 EUR. YT can sell you a complete bike for that money. But there are people who will buy a Nicolai anyway. Not many, but that's not the point, they know how many bikes they need to sell to make a profit. And yes, there will be many others who will say that Nicolai bikes are ugly.
Btw price is irrelevant in this discussion, if you can't afford a 5.5k frame, then you can't afford it, regardless of how it looks like. (Neither can I btw). This isn't a bike for 99% of us. This is a bike for the 1% who can afford it and want to have something different.
  • + 6
 @Kamba6: That's the thing though, people aren't being anymore offensive than Arbr is technically being "arrogant" by asking such a ridiculous price for an unknown frame. Who are they to ask such a price for a technically undeveloped/unproven frame, then the public are to say it doesn't look good. How often have you seen a car company put a Koenigsegg or Pagani price tag on something with no proven results or data to back it up? Never, it just doesn't happen because it doesn't work as a long term business model to the public. When you claim to be the best of the best with no proof to back it up and produce something that looks in the general eye "terrible" you are going to be crucified. Paul's salty as hell that the brand paying him didn't get all the love like normal, deal with it. He has no more right to call out the haters then the haters to call out Arbr, Bottom line: when you claim to be the best at something you need to have all bases covered or be prepared to cop all the "opinions" that come associated with it.
  • - 1
 @Hugh1736: Actually, I have seen it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenvo_ST1
Company founded in 2004, sold its first model for €660,000.
  • + 0
 @Hugh1736: Again, there's no issue with expressing opinion but there's a right way and a wrong way of doing it. You just stated your opinion on this frame in a polite maner without being deliberately offensive or leaving any chance for misinterpretation. If you don't like something rats fine, but say it in a polite way. There is no need to go out of you way and use insults while doing it.

On the other hand Robot Bike and UNNO both make similar claims and have a similar price tag nut got nowhere near the dogs abuse these guys did. Probably because of their more conventional and aesthetically pleasing looks, but remember that St the time of either one of those press releases we knew nothing about hotel those things rode.
  • + 2
 Apologies for all the spelling errors. I was half asleep.
  • + 26
 Jezus fricking Christ, @paulaston get some journalist distance and then some sense of humor. I don't think the bike is that ugly at all (although the mid section is messed up and should get an opening, even at the risk of appearing similar to Spec Enduro) and I did feel sorry for the bloke for a moment. I also find the features of the bike very interesting and I bet it rides better than most things out there. After all I think all Paganis look like a testelesess snobish shit.

But then I laughed my arse off. That was the biggest pile of Pinkbike comment gold ever.
  • + 26
 Paul Aston, you seem to be implying that this ugly ass bike is somehow better than all the other bikes on the market... in that we should ignore its 90's box stork over built appearance because its is in some way superior to the current product offerings.
  • + 23
 i´m a product designer and i have to say that if you build something that will cost above 4000€ you just have to make sure people will like not just the function but also the design. and if the formal language is just not up to date then you will have to accept people who will tell you that. i dont like the agressive bashing on here as well but it is sadly true that the look of the bike is not contemporary! i know it from myself: if i work on something for a long time i sometimes loose an objective view on it. if i then ask a colleague and he tells me that this and that should be changed to make the function or design better you simply have to accept it. on this frame it just doesnt seem that the guy (and i have full respect for him building that frame) asked many other people for their opinion on the design. and design gets more and more important nowadays.

to round things up: if i pay that much money for something it has to be perfect. and i expect from someone wanting that money from me that he made sure that also the design is up to date and that i will be able to look at this bike for the next 5 years at least and thining "wow, that things works well and looks sick". but i think for most people thats not the case with this bike.

if the frame really works good and from reviews i think it does, then i guess the best thing they can do is get a industrial designer involved to make it look sick. i just hope the guy gets even more motivated now to show us what he is able to do!!
  • + 5
 @sharkus

I worked an in industrial designer in the 90's and actually owned a bicycle manufacturing company and R&D facility. Loss of objective view is very important. Designer can become blinded by their design, and lose sight of the end user (purchasing customers)

In the 90's we were designing very functional and somewhat brutal looking suspension frames - materials and manufacturing had serious limitations. We used off-the-shelf Alcan aluminium alloy tubing for all our prototyping and team bikes, with a large box section down tube

We knew our bike worked great, but the brutal aspect turned off many potential customers. When we went to production,much of the work was on the aluminium alloy tube set, to improve the visual aesthetic to bring to market.
  • + 23
 1) People can be cruel when expressing their distaste. No need for that. However I doubt that such venom would have been unleashed if the original press release didn't have such an arrogant air about it.

2) The author of this article does himself a disservice by posting this unusually disingenuous tirade. Much respect lost

3) I am not surprised at the backlash. Bringing a product to a market that so evidently relies on fashion for sales, without doing your homework is either myopic or arrogant. This applies to all sorts of industrial design, architecture, fashion etc. You cannot expect people to buy something that looks like its dated by 10-15 years. ( 25 years maybe as it can grab the retro/classic/nostalgia crowd.)

4) This bike is actually ugly. I am a designer. And while I am very aware that tastes span a broad range, and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there is nothing about this bike that will reveal itself to be timeless. The form and lines of this thing are forced and laboured over. Intrinsic beauty is possible but rare.

5) This bike is not, as the author implies, a case of function before form; evidenced by the try-hard carbon design. This is more accurately an example of function first, and amature-ish design tacked onto the the end of the process.
  • + 4
 @SilverCreek

great points. as a former industrial designer (and frame designer) I appreciate the engineering and manufacturing, but the aesthetic looks imbalanced and very unattractive to my eye, and as you point out, dated. It reminds me of another UK bike company "Formula One" who came and went...

i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k602/giom6/Formula%201/DSC_0058-2_zpsc0882b14.jpg
  • + 19
 When I worked for a large, successful, un-named consumer electronics company, we would spend hundreds of man hours and millions of dollars to make even the inside of our products look good. Our previous leader felt that even if the customer didn't see it, it was critical that we still put thought into the inside of the product, and that it did result in better engineering. There were many times I disagreed with leadership and felt we were going a bit overboard, at times sacrificing other more user-critical areas of performance. But I soon came to appreciate the values and principles of our industrial design team, and feel that ultimately it did result in a better all around product. You cannot ignore design. It is even more critical to have an aesthetically pleasing design (although there is subjectivity to what is pleasing) for expensive products.

As a composite structures engineer, I do not see any significant benefits to the singular massive top/down tube concept, obviously the most polarizing feature of the design. I see reduced torsional stiffness when compared to two smaller beams, resulting in more material/weight required to increase stiffness. There are likely noise and vibration issues (hopefully those walls are internally supported otherwise this thing will sound like a bongo drum). I understand it can be extremely hard to read baseless comments trashing something you've poured your heart and soul into, but perhaps it would be worth sharing any analysis or testing justifying the design or explicitly validating increased performance over more traditional frame designs. Otherwise, consumers have no choice but to focus on what they see.
  • + 7
 @microfiz thanks for the review by Dirt:

"Just over a year ago I remarked that this 160mm bike was not shy of wanting to be a bike for all occasions. It weighed in just over 30lb, offered a progressive suspension design that’s easy to ride, settling well in corners, generating good drive out of the terrain, and giving a stable ride when booting it hard into deep breakers. It was however, horribly noisy."

My assumptions have been validated. Just over 30 pounds and horribly noisy? It appears the design doesn't support any improved function or performance.
  • + 2
 @TheSavageBeagle: To be fair, they did address the noise issue while the article was written: "Rob and his team of experts have dealt impressively with the noise issues and this bike is almost silent, that’s both within the frame and also on the chain line. The detailing of frame protection is exemplary. The idler is now improved, larger and features narrow/wide. On my test bike there was little noise from the drive system, no cable rattling inside the frame or no unnecessary clanging that we experience on so many bikes. Some big, big points scored for the Straker." But I get your point with the weight issue.
  • + 24
 needs more cowbell
  • + 21
 Paul Aston #whinylittlebitch
  • + 12
 Quite ironic that we are talking about fashion over function when it comes to this bike. A frame that looks to have been designed as a point of difference, a front triangle that is fashion over function, looks over practicality. Not to defend the behaviour of the vocal members in the press release but look at some of the most aesthetically pleasing and highest selling bikes, Specialized, Santa Cruz etc. all look great but are also very minimalist and very practical. I'm sure most of the critics one here actually like the design of the rear suspension but are put off by the impractical front end. To me this bike is fashion over function.
  • + 1
 @jonnycanfield your comment is another shining example of what the author is talking about.
  • + 16
 Well, this post, well intentioned as it is, should just about kill the dream for this bike. ARBR will now forever be known as that bike that needed to be protected from the mean kids by its overly protective mommy. Not a good look from a marketing perspective.
  • + 8
 Terrible for the company. I don't know if the CEO approved this article, if he did that was a mistake and if he didn't that was an even bigger mistake. Never, NEVER chastise the market for disliking what you are trying to sell it. The market isn't the problem, your product is.
  • + 16
 Pinkbike comments should never be taken seriously. 99% of the people commenting are doing so to get attention from all the other prepubescent wannabees.. if something is different, there will be a dozen 14 year olds yelling out UGLY!!! just because it will get some attention and stir up some drama... the older I get I realize how much less I read the pinkbike comments, it is full of 14 year olds with their 21st century bullshit attitudes.. There is rarely if EVER anything to learn from reading these comments.. just like youtube.
  • + 7
 Spot on
  • - 8
flag vr6ix (Dec 3, 2016 at 13:39) (Below Threshold)
 PB comments are over-rated, I wouldn't miss them if they were disabled, and if there was an option to hide them then great!

As for the ARBR, see also: Ellsworth.

I visit PB for the articles, reviews, videos and photos and the contributions from the editors - not for the childish whiny snowflake commenters. Get off my lawn! lol
  • + 13
 @vr6ix: you just made a comment whining about whiny comments. Just don't scroll down to them if they are over-rated, you would think somebody who actually feels this way wouldn't even be in the comment section let alone writing a comment. Why do you need Pinkbike to disable comments for you?
  • + 2
 @mmakuch: Exactly.
  • + 2
 A couple of times I got carried away with negative comments here for no reason really, but that should be a lesson to oneself to realize that there's no need to take others comments so personal or seriously. Me, the older I get I realize that I can make a choice (most of the time) and not get angry because people or things are not how I believe they are supposed to be.
  • + 5
 21st century Bulls shit attitudes lol the ancient Greeks were complaining about the attitudes of the youth and the way they wore their togas. Your parents complained about the same things. You have officially become an old fogy
  • + 2
 @multialxndr: Stop toga shaming us if I want to only wear half the toga you can't police my body
  • + 1
 @mmakuch: The editors of PB were asking for feedback, so I supplied mine. Pretty Simple Sherlock!
  • + 1
 @vr6ix: You commented that comments were overrated and you wish pb would hide them. So let's have a real discussion that's worthwhile, what is your faviourite form of potato? I'm a mashed kind of guy, I just like the message that they send ya know? Whenever I go to a steakhouse and the server asks what I'd like as my side order I just give them the look (don't even try and say you don't know the look) and they instantly nod in approval. At this point the restaurant falls silent, everybody is aware that mashed potatoes had better be the next thing out of that kitchen. Usually there's a standing ovation but I'm not a dick or anything I just leave it up to the local customs.
  • - 1
 @mmakuch: Thank you for so decisively proving my point about PB comments being narcissistic ramblings with next to zero relevance to reality. Quod erat demonstrandum, assuming they even teach that phrase in math classes these days.

Go dig trail.
  • + 2
 @vr6ix: Im sorry you haven't seen the light of the potato but I promise you if you stop being such a dark horse theres a form of potato for everybody.
  • + 14
 I didn't say anything the first time. Maybe, because I am older and not raised in a generationa keyboard is a license to say anythinga taught me tonot say anything if I can't say anything nice. I do think the younger generation is too glib from the comfort of keyboards, but in this case I don't think their vehemence is inappropriate. They didn't attack a person nor the intellect or engineering capabilities of this person. If he had spent 10 years in motocross designing team colours and gas tank shapes then perhaps they should have spared him the interior decorating tips. I don't believe anyone called into question the function of this bike. They documented their displeasure with how it looks and asserted their lack of intent to buy it with respect to its price tag.
This is not what I was going to writthe first time.
What I was going to write is
"Looks like a Honda", which can be taken as "looks ugly as hell."
There is no deying that the Honda was one of the ugliest machines around. There is also no denying that it went very fast. There is also no denying that even for a company as rich as Honda it was too expensive and so it never came anywhere near to production. It was used as a tool to help learn more for motocross. This in a time where Mtn Bikes DIDN'T COST AS MUCH AS MX bikes (are we there yet??). So, is this the perfect bike? Will it make you go 3 seconds faster? Will it make you enjoy each ride 3.6% (or whatever 142/boost*100 is). POssibly. Will 99.9% of the users on here buy it? No. Because 99% of the users on here don't need to go boost % faster. They need 20$ more to replace their flanal shirt that they ripped when they cased their friend. Wearing a cool shirt, listening to your favorite song on 20$ earphones and riding with friends are actually proved to make you have boostfinity more fun.
There is no denying how we feel has a huge impact on how we ride. Is someone willing to spend 8563.65CAD$ (according to yahoo that is the current exchange rate Pounds to USD) to go 3 seconds faster. I doubt it. This gentleman is NOT HONDA. He likely is an incredible engineer and having worked in racing he likely has a million pounds. Not billions and billions like Honda. The pros care about 3 seconds. But they care because wining means a much better contract for them.Contracts paid for by Honda or SC of Specialized or CRC. The privateer, while they would like 3 seconds, will have to save the 4000$ difference in frame price to pay to get to races and fora new pan so they can cook their KD in their trailer. To me, even with the ludicrous prices of frames these days, it doesn't make any sense because as an amateur I don't need 3 seconds. I have a good time when I have a good time and there are good days and bad days. As a pro I have to ride with whoever is paying the bills and unless he charge 10K a frame and sells 500 of these he is not turning into the new enduro race team any time soon. If that changes I am sure the opinions of the readers here will change as well.
  • + 13
 Sorry Pinkbike the market doesn't like it. You can spend years working and spending endless money but if it's a donkey it's a donkey. Lot's of people spend years and all their money on a crappy product, just watch Shank tank.
  • + 7
 But do pink bike comments truly reflect the market and subsequent sales?
  • + 4
 @russthedog: time will tell
  • + 12
 Hey Paul Aston - Can you give the bike a "Participation Award"? It tried hard, just like the other kids. And we should never judge people/products harshly, regardless of their shortcomings. Darn! That's how feelings get hurt (and future generations grow up with an overblown sense of entitlement).
  • + 11
 People saying that fashion (call it aesthetics if you prefer) doesn't matter are absolutely lying to themselves. There are tons of well functioning bikes on the market, most function so well that the vast majority of internet bike nerds would ride just as poorly on any of them. People love clean lines, aesthetic simplicity, etc. etc.- we want our investment to look good. Placing pure function over form is what causes brands to lose sales. Fact. It could be the ultimate climber upper shredder downer but if it looked like garbage that's how it would sell.
  • + 2
 I don't think that's always the case. I bought a k9 dh-001s because I was convinced it would allow me to be faster. I think 1 or 2% of people that saw it liked how it looked. I didn't care, but I didn't love the looks. It was pretty fast, probably allowed me to go slightly faster than my previous bike, but the bike I bought afterwards was faster. Most people probably need some kind of image benchmark but I think there's a reasonable percentage of people that would buy a. Redalp if time and time again w e heard it was the fastest thing on the planet
  • + 1
 @russthedog: I absolutely love both its looks and handling (friend still has one).
  • + 11
 Jeez, trying to make sense of fashions now?!
Why not try to make sense of religion too, while you're at it. This piece is pretty out of place, if you ask me.

Is this sports too often about fashions and trends? Do many riders buy bikes in the same way women buy shoes? Do we focus too much on gear and style? hell YEAH. But guess what PB, you're one of the biggest promoters of this trend.

A little healthy criticism with a dash of humor or cynicism is something normal grownups should handle, especially if they're designing a product which is aimed at this very specific crowd.
  • + 13
 If he spent so much time perfecting the function, he could have spent a small time gathering input about the aesthetics.
  • + 3
 Or even incorporate a water bottle mount for tons of money. But hey, I don't even use water bottles. I just like the fact that its available just in case I never ever get to use them.
  • + 9
 Once again, poll options are too narrow. No one I know would buy a frame just because it looks good. On the converse, I don't know too many that would buy something that performs well but happens to look like shit. Thankfully, we rarely have to compromise in that regard, but yeah, it's never going to be cheap.
  • + 9
 If you are going to shell out huge dollars for bike, it should look nice too. The key board warriors bashing the product are actually the market.. we are the demographic. and clearly we don't want an ugly ass over built monocoque bike that looks like it came from a hardware store in the mid 90's.
  • + 10
 I was going to say this. It's true and pb is free market information. Paul Aston shouldnt be biting the hand that actually feeds the industry.
  • + 9
 More offended by the price than the looks. Ive always wanted to ride a high pivot w/ idler b/c I think the concepts sound and if they got the linkage rates right it should be fantastic.

But the price is really going to make them fail as a business. You cant compete when your price isnt even in the ballpark of other frames. I thought yeti's sb looked /siunded great but at $500 more than the vpp bikes I know work Im not willing to take the risk, much less on this one.
  • + 2
 true, but perhaps the design will catch on and later be produced for much cheaper. That's how a lot of things work
  • + 8
 If you are going to use pinkbike as a means to launch a bike or product, you have to be aware of the double edged sword. On one hand, it is a very cost effective way to get exposure. BUT, it is also an open forum with a highly trend conscious following who is not adverse to airing their opinion. You have to be well aware which way the wind is blowing ahead of time.

I seem to remember a while ago an apparent one man show was trying to start a consumer direct business selling 29er hardtails. The geometry was not progressive in the long, slack that is popularthe PB user group. It was probably a more "traditional" steeper 29er geometry that worked well in the owner's neck of the woods. They probably shouldn't have tried to use PB, as it isn't his targeted user group and they got ripped up in the comments.
  • + 2
 On the other hand they shouldn't really take PB comments too seriously, it's like expecting to every girl to like you and getting depressed when someone rejects you.
  • + 10
 did i seriously just read that? Paul Aston needs a new crowd to whine to, pretty sure this aint it, that bikes miserable.
  • + 10
 Paul don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out you over sensitive tosser!
  • + 7
 im not gonna bash. im just gonna point the part that seems wierd.
im a designer myself, not an engineer.

1. the 3 bolted plate where the shock mounted. That should never exist in the frist place, or atleast cover it with something.. if i can put it into words, its just a random scrap cus you wanna put 180mm shock in the first place, and change it midway to 160mm. so you use that wierd looking thing???

2. the Frame looks unbalanced. if you put all the parts aside. that frame looks like Petter Griffin had a VIctoria Secret's feet.
(the rear arm resembels VS's feet)
there's a designer rule to make something pleased to the eye of the people who watch. its either 1:2 2:3 and 1:1 for minimalist design. for the extreme rule (1:4 1:5).. well.. theres only few case you will pass if you're on collage. im not saying its bad. its just not for everyone. even MX have balanced design and engineering

3. i dunno if i was right or not. so correct me if im wrong, the flat surface of the frame seems sketchy to me. what if you crashed and the bike landed sideways. dosnt it like breaking a thin long board? thats why i prefer tubes, its stronger.

4. if you're inspired by MOTO, why dont you give it motor too? (E-BIKE) if this was an e-bike, than you might have the right audience and market.

5. i believe you can make a Comeback ARBR. *if your suspension and bike really works like Magic. Smile learn from this problem and go ON!
  • + 2
 Agreed, with this look it should be an e-bike and for that it's a really good looking one. Smile
  • + 6
 A friend only focuses on fashion and not function, and because he finds "all mtb shoes to be ugly" he rides some overly expensive city sneakers that don't grip shit on the pedals (and then proceeds to blame the pedals for the lack of grip)...

I just don't understand him, at all.
  • + 13
 I do,he's called a poseurSmile
  • + 6
 There was something about the way the pictures came out of that article that didn't look as good as the other pictures that I saw on different sites (like this one: dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/arbr-saker-tested.html). I also think that most mtb owners have a "look" they're going after (looks like a Session, murdered-out stealth look). I also saw comments comparing this bike to the San Andreas... which to me was one of the most beautiful bike designed. I can see why people have a binary reaction to it (uniquely different, very costly which introduces another level of expectation). If money were no object, I'd rock that bike.

Either way, it's all a matter of personal taste. And just like most people, mine vacillates. Was just driving the other day when I saw a Lamborghini Aventador followed by a Ferrari 488 and thought how poorly designed the Aventador looked compared to the 488. A lot of people would probably think otherwise.
  • + 2
 hmmm interesting point. these pictures miss out on a lot of the lines/creases/character lines/shapes in the monocoque.

also the extended dropper post makes it look ungainly and awkward, whereas the nicely lowered post in the dirtmtb pics makes it look more sleek and purposeful. interesting.
  • + 1
 I gotta say that picture made me think "It doesn't look that bad there".
  • + 2
 I tried to make the same point earlier. The PinkBike white background images made this frame look way worse. If they had shown images like the ones in your link the reaction would have aired more positive imo. There was something sterile and bland about the look of the photos on PB. Yuk. Carbon weave also looks dated. This is partially a case of bad first impressions. I say relaunch on on PB with some better images like the ones shown in the link.
  • + 9
 waaah wah wah . its ugly. the populus let you know it. Sorry your paid plug didnt work out
  • + 4
 Right? Telling the market they are wrong is backwards when they don't want to buy your product.
  • + 6
 Criticizing posters for being rude is fine. Criticizing posters for disliking the look of the bike is unprofessional, a conflict of interest, and ameture. To think the bike wasn't made to look cool is nieve. It was and it failed. The bike industry, including PinkBike is focused on coolness. Besides selling bikes they are selling coolness. Ads are made to create an image. An image of coolness. Are you criticizing that? Holy hypocracy! Are customers to be embarrassed or shamed to like the look of their bike they paid Thousands for? That's absured! Look at the industry you are in and understand its function before you attack its customers form. It's patronizing and contrary to the core of the business.
  • + 2
 This comment right here, has so much truth in it!
  • + 6
 Come on, when u guys test bikes 99% if the time the "cool" bikes ALWAYS seem to test better than the uncool bikes.

Look in the mirror before you judge us of only caring about looking cool when were out riding.

It would be one thing if this new bike had a superior and proven Test record, ir insanely light weight, or some new tech nobody else has...

But it's nothing new and kind of looks funky to most people. If ut was less money for comparable performance id still consider it. But likely you'll be able to buy something just as good for around the same money that doesn't look funky. So other than someone who lived nearby and wanted to support local I'm not sure what the buying argument is...?
  • + 8
 And here my favorite comment on the bike was over on Vital. "That bike is uglier than my wife." lol
  • + 3
 That's courage level 9
  • + 3
 Another guy even said he needed to see pics... Hilarious!
  • + 5
 I have to be honest in that I can't see this bike being night and day better than the next super bike. Maybe it will be slightly better, but we are talking such small increments that it doesn't matter to most. As a new company you can't rely on a good rep for customer service, and it is missing a USP to really differenciate it (think Robot Bike Co), so you are left with aesthetics. The bike isn't my cup of tea, but maybe it is better in the flesh?

The problem is that there are so many high end bikes that perform well AND are beautiful that it really has a mountain to climb IMHO (no pun intended) - just look at the Unno coverage recently. I hope that this company is successful and wish the owners all the best, and so I hope that some positive reviews open some eyes as to why this bike differs from another, explains any advantages that the frame design may have, and why this bike may be worthy of consideration.
  • + 6
 I couldn't help being curious about how this could be modified without affecting the superb engineering... here is is:

www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=195425
  • + 3
 Great job. It looks way better when slimmed down like that.
  • + 7
 I quite like how the Saker looks, and I would absolutely love to try riding one, and I think he's done a fantastic job making that frame. looking forward to the review.
  • - 3
 +1
  • + 5
 Honestly I understand people want something to look good when they spend a bunch of money on it, but really it's entirely illogical. Maybe I'm strange, but my fun on a bike is directly correlated with how my bike is performing, and the only thing more important is how I am performing. When I ride, I try to make sure every ride is awesome by preparing appropriately, from my body, to my apparel to my bike to when I head out (try to hit the best part of the day). Never once have I looked in the mirror and thought, "man if I looked cooler or matched better, I'd have a way better ride." I notice the subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, differences in bike designs when I ride them. I got to great lengths to adjust my geometry so it fits EXACTLY what I want out of a certain bike.

So, when I really think about it, it's pure idiocy and it holds our sport back when people care about "balancing" form and function for things that are purely affected by function. Do you actually notice what your bike looks like when you are riding it? If you answered yes, you're doing something wrong. Ride harder.
  • + 4
 Mountain bikers are so daggy I can't believe we ever talk about aesthetics at all lol
  • + 3
 I guess that the point is that for most cases aesthetics and function can be balanced. So a bike that performs well can also be found that suits aesthetic requirements (if they exist). You throw your leg over a bike and only care how it feels; good for you. Someone else might choose another bike that feels similar but suits their aesthetics. All bikes can be tweaked, built up, and even repainted. But the frame cannot be changed.
  • + 5
 Well said, fed up to the back teeth with bike snobbery. A guys worked years developing something unique that he believes works and it gets slated quite badly, I experience the same when people see my Empires or Orange bikes, ever thought they work?
  • + 8
 Well I love the looks of Empire and Orange Smile . The looks of that Arbr didn't quite please me though I absolutely can imagine it should ride like a great bike and a lot of care and attention went into that. Basically I had nothing constructive to say in that topic, so I just didn't post anything.
  • + 4
 'Believes' is not the same as demonstrated/tested.
  • + 2
 look at current f1 cars. lots of money/engineering/manpower involved, look like complete ass.

common thread here.
  • + 3
 Yea but you are missing one of the points which I think got a lot of people started - £4300.00 - you can buy and Orange and Empire frame for that and have a grand in change.
  • + 2
 @Racer951: Nah, wasn't missing it, just weren't aiming. But if you want my opinion on that, here we go. I think an absolute beginner (on a budget)might be more tempted to go for the looks of a bike or component. SLX doesn't look much fancier than Deore, so why pay more? I think with the Acera group they actually put more effort into making it look more sleek/streamlined though it would ad a bit of weight. With XTR every gram counts so they could try to make it prettier here and there, but not at the expense of low weight, strength and/or stiffness. Looks aren't necessarily more expensive. Getting the best tuned stiffness, and highest strength over weight ratio is.

Then of course, for lack of anything better, we as humans are used to judge something by the looks. Especially on the internet, that's all we have. But evolution has favored those who look what apple to pick from the tree, to look who is fit for a potential partner, to look which horse is fit enough to bring to war or work on your land. And those genes don't favor this bike. It looks like an old unfit horse with sagged belly and back. We're judging it as if it were a horse, comparing it to much sharper lookers. That's why sleek triangular shapes are considered good looking for something quick. Like a cheetah in sprint. Car manufacturers have been using this concept for years as well, as the front of the car resembles a face. A face that should resemble the way the potential customer looks at him/herself. The first Renault Twingo as a friendly/happy face, the first Peugeot 107 as a big smile, an Audi is typically a bit more intimidating. But back to this bike. To our unconscious being it looks like an old unfit horse and we judge it inappropriately.

I've to add that the bike seems to have been pictured using a wide angle lens, which is never going to flatter. Brake rotors and cassette don't seem to be aligned with the fork/frame dropouts, making it all look a bit more wonky. Just look at a catalog profile (from the side) picture of a bike that think looks good. Everything aligned, probably shot at axle height and from an appropriate distance. Whoever took this picture of this bike to give people a first impression mustn't have been someone who typically does this. As we see here, first impressions are important as many can't look past that.
  • + 0
 @vinay: 10/10 for effort
  • + 2
 @Racer951: Thanks Smile . You may want to look at one of the articles on Dirt Mag UK:
dirtmountainbike.com/bike-reviews/trail-enduro-bikes/arbr-saker-tested.html
They've got three articles on that bike/frame.

Also look at how the bike is being photographed (at axle height). PB definitely messed up with their picture here. So much flash that it looks as if the rims have polished brake surfaces and of course the handlebar height wide angle (cellphone?) picture making everything wonky, rims oval, bike short and high (especially with the extended seatpost) and wheel components misaligned.
  • + 10
 U ok Hun? X
  • + 8
 "That looks like an orthopedic bike" - my wife. I'd at least give it a shot before throwing it out.
  • + 2
 you will shot and throw out your wife because of a comment on this ugly ass bike?
  • + 5
 The article consisted of pr-texts, geometry details and pictures. As has been pointed out, we've seen the chain routing and high pivot points on a number of bikes before, the zerode amongst others. The one thing that stands out most about this bike is -- at least at the moment -- it's looks. Had the article included some hands on review or some never-seen-before revolutionary technology, the response might have been different.
  • + 5
 What a stupid poll: we do not buy for fashion but many of us bulk when a deadly ugly frame with unproven function shows up. There are plenty of VERY functional bikes going around that happen to also be VERY fashionable (i.e. beautiful)!
  • + 4
 I think it's important to raise another point, which is that at some point function is impacted by form. If you look at a design and it's ugly, it might not just be a fashion thing - it might be because there's something about it that looks off kilter. Humans are capable of judging this. You look at a black panther and you can see right away, damn this thing is sleek as hell, it's a fking killer. You take that same look at this bike and there's part of your brain going, 'that doesn't make sense', 'why is this part so fat,' and 'what's that indent there for' etc. Form follows function, and adding a bunch of superfluous crap to a bike serves no function. Going around accusing everyone of just liking the flavor of the month is way overly simplistic.
  • + 4
 I am pretty sure that when pinkbike talks about ad money they bring up the number of views on their articles AND THE NUMBER OF COMMENTS, because that means we are an active community. From time to time they will bait us to comment with articles like this. Or maybe Paul Aston thought the hate for the bike wasn't enough and made a second post so we throw more crap at it.
  • + 4
 OK...but for the 5 digit price tag on the higher end bikes of today, do they really need to look ugly? You can change the shape of the tubes, other little details to make it look a little nicer. There's lots of options for awesome bikes that look great too, sorry if you're butt hurt that nobody wants to spend thousands of hard earned dollars on something that looks like crap before it even hits the dirt. We are the paying customers, suck it up and deal with it
  • + 4
 www.google.com/search?q=maverick+bikes&espv=2&biw=1536&bih=747&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiPt_i8-NjQAhUBVWMKHX_cB64Q_AUIBygC#imgrc=xi7TQ9FDJl_jcM%3A

Plenty of people shelled out high dollar for these turds. They were ugly and had shit pedaling performance. But they still sold.
  • + 4
 Haha, I was thinking about the Maverick reading these comments too. Along with the Whyte PRST. Some people love ugly.
  • + 4
 The post was full of mistakes and false claims with tag words.. this for example - 100% anti squat characteristic for pedal efficiency. It has zero anti squat as the idler removes any chain force from the suspension. When you push down on pedals it will squat end off. Removal of chain tension feedback and interference - yes on the top of chain around idler but there is massive chaingrowth between chainring and mech as there is no bottom chaindevice mounted high up around chainring like other high pivots to remove chaingrowth from bottom of chainline. The rear mech will be bouncing back and forth with this setup.
  • + 4
 I know which superbike PB article stopped me in my tracks, with industrial design shining through:

www.pinkbike.com/news/all-about-unno-2016.html

I spent little time looking at the ARBR article. Ugly is ugly, no matter how you sugar-coat it.
  • + 7
 Remember that episode of The Simpsons where Homer designs a car? this bike is truly reminiscent of that.
  • + 3
 Good design is 100% efficiency with 100% of gorgeous looks. It's very hard to achieve that.

Function in number 1 for me but if I can choose between similar products I'll definitely buy one that looks better. As humans we have desire for nice things - it's simple as that.

As for ARBR I won't deny that it takes a lot of time and man power to design something that ugly with unlimited possibilities of carbon fiber. So now when we know that is goddam ugly I'm waiting for a proper review of this bike. If it rides half as good as hideous it is it might be one of the best bikes in the world Smile
  • + 5
 Since most top bikes perform so well these days, I do take its looks in consideration, along with price, warranty, spare parts availability and reviews.
  • + 7
 Paul Aston, What do you want to be when you grow up?
  • + 10
 Over 30, I have 4 months to get my act together.
  • + 2
 @paulaston: Ahh, well played Sir
  • + 3
 We could have all just said nothing and the designer would have been wondering for ages why his new model never sold... Fact is statements about the design weren't correct such as 'antisquat' being built in when it has a neutral pedaling characteristic due to the idler. This coupled with the ugly looks undermined any amount of hype. Basically all the bikes from the main manufacturers in the market are at least half decent looking, even Lapierre and Orange bikes. And we all know they all perform amazingly in their own right. The only way this bike would be justified is if it was a game changer in terms of performance, but considering the info given about the bike isn't even correct, it doesn't have much hope. Don't hate criticism, learn from it, back in the day people faced lifes problems, now everyone just whinges if things don't go their way - schools have banned sports day, kids get participation awards, trail builders keeps dumming down trails in trail centres instead of people just learning to ride.... manufacturers get butt hurt when everyone calls their bike ugly instead of making it prettier.... so 2016!
  • + 3
 If this bike did turn out to be the holy grail of bikes. Most people who thrashed its appearance would probably flip a 180 with their opinion and start praising its every aspect. Theres no accountability for internet comments. So people jump bandwagons, spew and reiterate what jargon they see as the norm. I would bet a lot of the people who thrashed it also complain that all bikes look the same and we need something refreshing. Ultimately, until people are speaking from experience and have seen it in person. Online banter is more or less irrelevant. I can think of several bikes that dont photograph well, yet in person are magnificent looking. I hope the creator can brush it all off and continue his work. He should.
  • + 3
 As a small world, I bumped into the designer and rider of this bike this morning, whilst out on the Surrey Hills (end of Evian), we had a chat with him, not knowing until near the end of the conversation that he designed the frame. In the flesh it actually looked stunning, made me think of Honda's DH frame, and Lotus of days of old. The frame is made in the UK (Near Goodwood), I think fair play and good on him for going out and making his own frame, would like to ride one as this, for me, is the key point of buying a bike (stuff how it looks). I think the Evil frames are questionable with their looks, but having had a day on an insurgent, it is outstanding to ride. Different strokes for different folks.....
  • + 3
 What the author is trying to say is that because someone spent a lot of time R&D we have to love it? Sorry, but there is not just one answer to MTB bikes.
I don't like it because it looks like an ebike that will sound like an empty yoghurt jar tumbling down the mountain.
It might be good, but VHS won over BetaMax.
  • + 3
 This is soooo bad. So, if I find a bike that is ugly, 9 out of 10 believe that, that makes me "... short tempered, keyboard bashing warrior, cold hearted bastard with not a care in the world". Well done! So, this guy has the right, obviously, to characterise behind his keyboard the rest of us cold hearted bastards because we, listen, did not like a bike in terms of its design! WTF?
  • + 4
 Honest, unappologetic, and passionate are the PB users opinions! Based on that alone is a priceless resource to manufacturers to gauge their product whether it will succeed or fail in the market!
  • + 4
 I chose my bike because it offered the travel and components I was looking for at a price that I could work with...but don't think for a moment that the sexy curves of the frame didn't help me open my wallet.
  • + 6
 I believe the primary reason anyone on pinkbike is super salty is because they are on their computer instead of riding.
  • + 3
 Paul, I'm sorry. I know with Brexit and now Trump, your nerves must be frayed. People just aren't nice anymore. I promise that from now on I'll try to see the good in everything, the potential in all. A sunny day, a little puppy, an overpriced, ugly as sin carbon frame, it's all about the love.
  • + 3
 Listen, PB it's just an opinion. I believe most people are not knocking the specs or technology/thought that went into this bike. However, it's not truly been tested and reviewed has it?

What we do know is price for just the frame (it ain't cheap) and the people behind this new bike.

Not everyone is going to agree on looks. It's subjective always has been and always will. I for one don't like the look and if I were to invest $$$ I want to be completely satisfied with my purchase. There's nothing wrong with that is there?
  • + 7
 Fantastic. Now inanimate objects need safe spaces.
  • + 1
 #inanimateobjectslivesmatter
  • + 5
 The photo above of the Arbr is bad, there are some much more flattering pictures of it on the Internet. They need to ditch that photo.
  • + 6
 Dirt mag photos make it look decent. If you're charging this much for a frame you think you'd get a decent photographer for the press release
  • + 2
 I just think that the "author" of this "article" did not manage to prove a point by calling people "bastards"!
And yes the bike is UGLY because it has the design features of the HONDA and Zerode, but non of the functionality, i did not see any internal gearbox in that frame, nor any particular feedback from someone that actually rode the thing.So Mr.Aston i think you owe an excuse to all PB readers that you called 'bastards"...really lame.!.
  • + 2
 Paul's mad at people expressing an opinion about an article they published? Doesn't the article allow thier readers to express an opinion?

Let us know how you want everyone to respond next time so you don't piss and moan next time.

Does everyone get 1st place trophies in mountain biking now?

Who the hell is dropping 3k on an ugly frame? Wtf?

The industry did this not your readers. What a dick!!!
  • + 2
 As a designer, the psychology of aesthetics is huge. if something looks more aesthetically appealing we are more inclined to believe that it works better too. This may or may not be the case but you can never afford to overlook this. For me, I don't hate it. It's a very interesting design and something I'd be interesting to see how it performs before I make any judgement. Unlike, for example, Nicolai, which I'd buy blind, just because 'I' think they look nicer. Unfortunately this is a bit of a learning curve for ARBR and I only hope they don't take the twattish comments personally and keep on striving to make a passion a reality.
  • + 2
 I work in a shop, so it's in my best interest to ride the bikes and use the products we sell. Luckily we sell some good products that are priced within my means. Function is a big part of the buying decisions for me, but fashion is also a consideration because I need to eventually sell my gear at the end of a model year. Looks are a big reason why a customer will choose one bike over another. I am bored to tears of matte black bikes, but they sell the best in my shop. We sell more Specialized than Giant because most customers say they look better.
  • + 2
 @IamSeaDevil

I have worked in Specialized Concept Store (2 different store) and Giant Brand Store here in the UK.

Specialized always had, and still have, their marketing dialled and their bikes looking generally excellent. Great colours and graphics. Also, the ability to do limited edition frames and bikes in relatively small numbers (i.e. 250 globally).

But, in the past few seasons also as ££ has tanked, like many other big brands, the value for money has become quite poor. They've closed 2 Concept Store already in the UK this season, down to only 10 now. Grumbling from consumers about the legendary goodwill vapourising as costs have been driven down, with staff leaving and new managing director in the UK.

Giant however are selling well in the UK, they are opening Brand Stores, up to 26 at last count. Bike are good value for money (sitting just above the direct to consumer brands) and considered great performers. I heard Giant offset the bulk of the currency valuation shock for MY2017 in the UK using their $$ reserves and financial muscle. Big moves into 'Click and Collect', prototype ran in the UK now going to the USA and beyond.

Bikes generally look good, but some models have unpopular colours/graphics which can cheapen the perceived value of the bike. I have seen customers ready to drop £1800 on a bike except for the colour, they just can't do it if they don't really like / love the bike.

I heard they actually spend big money on focus groups, colours, etc. so its not accidental, also heard they will make a particular model contrasting, to move customers up the scale looking to the next model with better colour.

Expect to see direct to consumer brands do very well this season, and brands like Giant and Trek continue to take share from Specialized. The bikes all look pretty good, and value/performance is king in eyes of consumer wary of big ticket purchases with ongoing instability in Brexit situation.
  • + 2
 Wow... A bike just got humanized and called "voiceless." That is a bit dramatic. The consumer ultimately decides with their wallet and that bike better be absolute napalm on the trail in order for it to be successful with those looks.
  • + 2
 Ugly and functional becomes a fashion all its own. Look at Hayabusa, Veyron almost all German cars. Ugly makes you stand out physically so if it stands out performance wise they'll knock it out of the park. I think small bikes look tougher and lighter so I sacrifice as much comfort as I can to squeeze into the smallest bike I can comfortably fit. That's the opposite of current fashion but I'm a slave to my own.
  • + 2
 @paulaston You can't have it both ways. You talk about how the designer has spent loads of time thinking about the 'artistic sculpt' of the bike, and the criticize people for judging it on looks. If looks don't matter then the designer wouldn't have spent any time thinking about them. If looks don't matter then the designer won't care if people don't like the way the bike looks.

But clearly looks do matter (you ain't going to tell me that frame shape resulted purely from FEA simulations) and so looks can be judged. And yeah, regardless of whether some of the comments were over the top, it's still a fugly bike.
  • + 2
 And do you know why there's a hypocrisy here with this guy and further with PB? Because sites like this one are setting the trend when it comes to expensive bikes for the "keyboard warriors" but when they do not fancy bad reviews from the audience (which is the actual market) they are getting offended and they're creating little stupid polls blaming us that we are shitty people for attacking a guy that we don't even know him as a person because his design is obviously an aesthetic fail - no matter how well it works or not. What the majority here said is that this is not a beauty and instead of paying attention to the audience, they're attacking it. PB, sorry, this is an EPIC fail from your side for allowing someone to attack to your audience because for some shitty reason he took it personally. Just sayin'...
  • + 2
 @paulaston you complain about whiners yet here your are having a whinge yourself. and peoplr havr opinions some good some bad.grt over it. what else do you expect from the internet? there are baseless comments on all sites. but not everyone was trolling on the previous article.they were expressing their OPINIONS in a reasonable manner. the way you sound innthis article is as if its your god damn company. or are you just a nationalistic fool defending airbr jusr becayse it happens to be made in Britain. the unno bike design shits all over this. an s dont telll me this bike rides any better than other bikes that cost less.
  • + 3
 The bottom line is, if you don't like it, your not going to buy it. There are too many other options to choose from. The consumer is always right, especially when it's their money buying it.
  • + 2
 Wow, Paul Aston, piss off with your butt hurtness. You post a PR on a bike no one knows anything about, and then get mad when people call it ugly?! It is ugly! In fact it's so ugly, I would never buy one! Are you offended by that? Good. For as much as that frame cost, there's NO reason it can't look good and perform well! You are a disgrace to PB Paul, acting like a child who didn't get their way on the internet... psh. No one cares that you, ARBR, or other members of PB are offended by the majority opinion that the bike looks horrible. An I personally will apologize to absolutely no body for stating my opinion. ARBR... better luck next time!
  • + 2
 'In the eyes of the beholder' Some will like it and some won't, surely that is the way with a lot of things.... personally i am not keen on the appearance of the Saker, but then again how can i really comment, i ride a Mondraker Dune XR (bought for its function) ;-)
  • + 2
 @paulaston I respect your writing (and riding) and I appreciate that you have gone out on a limb for this bike. But like many here, I find the design undesirable.To me it falls into a group of unsightly bikes like REDALPs, Whytes,and Ellsworths. To me, fashion is too fleeting, too vapid. It's about *aesthetics* - there are just things that look 'right'.
  • + 2
 What the bike looks like obviously matters to everyone. It is not a thing to be ashamed of. To say otherwise is to lie. But the function of a bike can sway perception of the fashionable acceptance of a bike. If the Saker does turn out to be "The Bike" In terms of function, I would not be surprised to see it become a thing of beauty. Maybe even a new paradigm in bike beauty. If I'm spending my money on a bike, you are right I want it to look cool. That is not just acceptable, it is axiomatic. What is not acceptable, not in my book anyway, is this disrespect we see on the Internet. We are a community. If we cannot be respectful to our brethren, than what is the point of having a community at all?
  • + 2
 What is the function of all that extra carbon? It looks bulky to me. If it had gearbox hidden underneath it would actually be awesome(like above-mentioned by author Honda and Zerode). It would even get away pretty well with having a discrete battery and being a good looking e-bike. But in the market where fine lines and slim profiles are appreciated this does look a little out of place. For each its own though and I believe that this product will find its customer.
  • + 3
 I was told by a design engineer that if something is designed to perform well, then it will likely look pretty good as a by-product of that. And I know it's a pretty loose statement but I generally agree.
  • + 2
 I focus on function but that bike is so ugly I wouldn't buy it if it was the best bike on the market. I'd go with second best to get something that wasn't so hideous. And before anyone jumps down my throat about that, at that level second best is going to be more than any of us on here can reach the limit of anyway.
  • + 2
 I've always thought biking was a way of life and not about who looks best, but with all the new technology and all the different companys wanting to see their product at the top of everyone's most wanted list the company's themselves have to balance fashion with function never mind leaving it up to the customer to decide. P.s just look at hopes products they are fashion and function at its best and also srams eagle drivetrain, it's nice to look at and functions perfectly.
  • + 2
 u should stop crying....u should see germanys biggest bike forum....this here is kindergarten compare to the comments.....and hats off for the guy who put money/work/Time in his dream but it still is HIS dream bike or did he show and ask ppl if his Dream Design is not becoming a nightmare in many eyes!?
  • + 4
 Sure it has to perform decently, but if I'm dropping even $2k on a bike, I don't want it to look ugly.
The look of the bike it part of the enjoyment.
  • + 2
 What you have to consider is that nearly all the top bikes are seriously good, some may suit some styles of riding more than others. It's not fashion over function but when you spend money (a lot usually) on a bike you want to like what it looks like. Not everyone has the same taste so there is something for everyone. But surely part of good design is to create a product that looks good and performs the function. I don't think the Arbr bike looks good.
  • + 2
 I have to say that in most consumer products, there is a line where form and function blur, a line where engineers and designers battle all the time. Automotive is where this is most prominent as people sink a large amount of money. And if you go back through auto racing history, the most successful cars all have something beautiful about the form- this could be aero capabilities or even the livery, and for the tech geeks, the way the mechanical grip functions, the power delivery and so on. Then we start to see a blur as things become "winners". People flock to the winner for their own psychological desires- thus sometimes taking a bike like this and making it a thing of beauty. RIght now it may look off to many, but all the big brands had some ugly ducklings along the way- and they still crush it by basically joining two triangles together and a couple of wheels.
Rock on to those that dare to buck the norm- otherwise we would still be in the dark ages.
  • + 2
 I'm with Paul Aston- 2 in a million. I would take that thing out and let the results speak-
  • + 5
 Fuction over fashion is always a no brainer,a great bike does not have to be ugly.
  • + 2
 Whole post is trying to get people to stop voicing moronic hate, if you don't like it then feel free to say so, but try using constructive criticism instead of screaming abuse. What a shame, I thought better of my fellow mtb community than this... thankfully though, the haters that gotta hate seem to still be a minority, even if a loud mouthed minority.
  • + 2
 We should point the finger at SC frame designers and generic sleek look.

I like more flare look to my bike frames. The less generic a design or shape of frame, the more
I'll be likely to part with moolah.

But in all seriousness, most I would say buy based on glowing media reviews.
So let's get this puppy above tested in the mags!

Let's face it, most if not all bikes nowadays are infinitely sweeter to ride and even look at if that's your cuppa ( guilty of this myself)
  • + 1
 You say sc but I think you mean trek?
  • + 1
 @russthedog:

I think any generic looking frame Co. could be it tbh.

Smile
  • + 2
 When you see a girl in s bar the 1st thing that grabs your attention will be her looks!
Now she may end up having the personality of a cow with bse (mad cow disease) but it was still the looks that 1st made you stop and look.

Unfortunately most of us are fickle and would not take a second look if we don't like what we see and having a good looking bike will always give us some deep inner pride.

However a bike needs to do a job and sometimes we need to look more than skin deep to find out what it is truly capable of doing.

Personally my new bike is no way as pretty as my old Yeti sb66 but it dose ride a lot better and it makes me smile, if I had not done a test ride I would not of brought it.
  • + 2
 People's ideas of what looks good are shaped by what they're used to seeing. The fashion currently is for double triangle frames. No different than slim fitting vs. baggy jeans.
When people complain that the bike industry delivers only incremental improvements (e.g. Boost), they should realize that radically innovative change to bike design may look weird at first.I have no idea if this bike delivers on all or any of the designers' claims, but people should keep an open mind.
  • + 2
 Thank god we live in a world where the industry can offer both fashion and function all in one package. Looks are very subjective so buy what you think looks good and works well, and then get out there and ride,ride,ride. At the end of the day the experience will be remembered much longer than what you were riding!,
  • + 4
 You date them for fashion, you marry them for function. You live happily ever after. Same with a bike, car and everything else.
  • + 2
 Test ride before you buy!
  • + 1
 @PaulAston I remember seeing this bike 3 years ago, and thinking it looked cool. It's now looks 3 years out of date and looks like a piece of shit.

Hard to judge a bike properly from pictures on the net, but the sans-decal, minimalist look that ARBR have gone for; makes it look really bare and dated.
  • + 1
 It might have been a better idea to have written the article after test riding it and had more of a slant like: "While it might not be everyone's cup of tea looks wise.....the geometry and suspension lay up...blah blah blah"
Then some people may have refrained from being so harsh.

At the end of the day people will comment on what they have been presented with.
  • + 4
 Did @paulaston ride this bike? Or is he just saying it SHOULD ride amazing.
  • + 1
 When I worked in a LBS, my boss (being a giant ch*de in all other respects) gave me a lasting piece of advice. "You can't sell someone a bike they don't want to ride". He was specifically referring to a gentleman who fit perfectly on the WSD Trek 7.2FX we had on the floor for 20% off, but I ultimately didn't force the sale because we knew he would never ride the "periwinkle pimp-sicle".

Likewise, this bike will require a drastic change in assumed bike aesthetics, a massive marketing campaign, and many reasons for the change from the norm. If people want it, it will sell...but you have to give them a reason to want something so different.
  • + 1
 Seems to me that the internet needs "safe rooms" now.

I sympathize with the builder for all the harsh judgement on the looks but if you're building a bike and you have so much time and money invested it would be wise to do a market test to see how people respond before going foward with a carbon mold and production.
  • + 2
 I didn't read all these responses but I don't want to buy an expensive bike and have to explain to everyone why it looks so stupid. Whatever is posted above is one of those bikes. Sorry pinkbike.
  • + 1
 pfffft how could you (as a company i mean) get all 'moral high ground' while simply hearing the absolute vast and overwhelming majority of your target audience say EXACTLY the same thing- it looks terrible. it simply does, to the majority of them, simple as that. yes it may be awesome in function and quality, but its quite simply an insane oversight to either not focus group it for aesthetics, or simply make something that looked more appealing/mainstream to the target buyers group. i think it is simply wrong to go blaming the trolls for their reaction to something that is not their mistake, but the mistake of whoever designed that bike. hell, the trolls probably did the designer/company a rather harsh favour.
  • + 1
 Oh come on now. You all buy for how things 'look'.

If that wasn't the case we'd all still be riding the best bike in the world.
The Demo 7.

Because lets face it, 99.9% of us in the cycling community cannot even come close to what the engineers built the bike to do. That is why there are so many different 'types' of frames. Because lack of stress opens up ability to 'please the eye'. By and large we are just not good enough to warrant a real engineered bike. The pro's bikes are not even the same in geo as the production bikes and changing a pivot .5mm can do worlds for ramp rates/force and vector angles.

TLDR: Go ride your dam bike.
  • + 1
 Appearance of a given product is a colossal part of any engineering endeavor. The aerospace industry has a catch phrase "if it looks right, it flies right." When Boeing took on Lockheed battling for the contract for the new Joint strike fighter, both companies' jets performed nearly identically. Boeing lost because their X32 was beyond ugly compared to the now operating F35. Form and function are both important, even when function and performance is al that technically counts.
  • + 2
 Let the consumer decide. I'll either sell or it won't. Author - why don't you come back and comment 6 months from now when this has hit the market. Judging by the commentary, I'll give 1000:1 odd's it doesn't sell well.
  • + 1
 did a small research – i selected pics of 14 most common bikes seen on ews in 2016 and added the one mentioned above to the mix. showed it to my girlfriend and asked her to pick the most unaesthetic bike from 15 images. guess what? her answer was close to the comments on PB. she picked ARBR. took her 1 minute. "it looks like a motorbike, fat frame, i don't like it 100%, it's ugly" she said.

just to be fare – other two bikes, she didn't find very attractive ("not as ugly as ARBR") were cube stereo and trek remedy.

my respect to the guy for the effort. i wish him not to give up and continue on working on this machine but keep in touch with the world
  • + 1
 Sure, fashion should not determine the opinion someone has on the performance of a mountain bike, but the bike is open to criticism. Are we not allowed to dislike how it looks? Of course, as the buyer of the bike, you are free to criticise as you please, you are the one spending a couple thousand on something that may perform well, but is an eye sore. There's nothing wrong with not liking a bike for its appearance.
  • + 1
 The designer/ builder could have built the bike to have the same suspension design and performance it has now, but made it look much lighter and aesthetically pleasing. Maybe this feedback can be helpful. Might be a good idea to spend another $50k on a new mold and fix the issue now, rather than put that thing out there when you know its not receiving good reviews on the looks of it.Cut your losses... Loss may be a lot up front, but make it up with a killer functioning and good looking machine. Maybe come up with a few designs and let viewers vote on their fav.
  • + 4
 Calling em out.

Good idea or bad idea?

How will pinkbike make money without the people who buy trendy bikes?
  • + 2
 Bikes looking the same is trendy. Trek has easily a thousand times more advertising budget than these guys.
  • + 1
 I find beauty in function, however, the original article didn't even list so much as the weight of the frame. It looks bad compared to any 2016 bike....but if there are performance improvements behind every design element of this frame, i would admire it.
  • + 1
 The mtb buying public has definitely wisened up to fact that bikes need to look current and hot inbetwixt your legs.
They should have atleast hired one industrial designer and paid a junior graphics guy ~ $500 to look over their work. This is what happens when you have a bunch of engineers sitting in a room for a couple of years repeating "this is awesome, this is going to be the best". You need to put effort into a lot of areas in order to launch a successful anything nowadays.
I'm sure the numbers are right and it rides like a mutha, but I can only hope that it fares aswell as the Subaru Impreza. Super pedestrian looks but an engine and drivetrain that make the unassuming exterior scream "you want this". Colin Mcrae, a giant spoiler and flames shooting out of its ass would help too....
As for a critique of the design. The negative space in the seat mast is directionless and way too triangular. The struggling for recognition top tube is completely lost in the monocoqueness of the downtube and collapses into the main pivot. Not a confident or strong looking suit. The downtube looks to have a faux bashplate that is molded into the main frame. Shuck out for a separate part please, I think the rest of the frame would agree. Swingarm tapers too uniformly but is not that bad. the pivots and hardware look really good and it definitely got a lot of attention.
Cant wait to see how this thing performs because that is where it most likely shines. Engineers need industrial designers as much as industrial designers need engineers. Please support them.
  • + 1
 Honest feedback from people is good. It seemed to me like there was a lot of jumping on the bandwagon in the first article though... and it got pretty ugly. I think one of the main problems here was the first photo in the article (and we all know that first impression count, right?!) - The lighting wasn't great, and the angle of the shot gave the bike a strange distortion. The tyres don't look as aggressive as they could. All this stuff makes a difference in peoples perception. I'm not saying I'm in love with this bike (I'm quite traditional 'four bar' in my taste) - but I think on second glances here coresites-cdn.factorymedia.com/dirt_new/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/arbrstraker-5.jpg, and here scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s640x640/sh0.08/e35/13167349_1748327155379570_265149494_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTI0MjYwNDM3NjU1MDE2ODk4MA%3D%3D.2 that perhaps all the hate is unnecessary, and certainly unkind to someone who has clearly out their heart and soul into this project. Think before you type people.
  • + 2
 this article pisses me off. @paulaston is clearly licking the taint of the industry to save face and keep the free swag coming. Shameful. Can we get @vernonfelton in here to speak some truths about how ugly this bike is?
  • + 1
 I've been biking and playing guitar for both about the same amount of time- 25yrs. And I think you just become jaded to whatever the "new thing" is. Unfortunately only about 1 in 100 (that may be optimistic) things actually catches on.
  • + 2
 After reading this article, are there any PB readers that believe the PB staff is capable of an objective review on this bike? My suggestion: keep Aston away for conflict of interest and leave it to Levy or RC.
  • + 1
 Thing is
All this talk of fashion over function....

This boutique hyper bike reminds me of Empire bikes. Very unique, very technical in construction and VERY British. I work in the Alu casting industry an had an independent conversation with the Empire guys at a trade show an was VERY impressed by them.

Would I buy one? (if I could afford it)

Nah man it's just a basic single pivot.......
  • + 4
 www.starlingcycles.com Designed by an experienced engineer and beautiful! ...and very fast.
  • + 2
 Putting a product to market opens it up to comment no matter how much time and effort went into its creation. Look for the useful information and synthesize it into the next iteration. Don't sweat the emotional content
  • + 5
 Priced like a bugatti, Looks like a Yugo Rides like......noone knows.
  • + 2
 Dear Pinkbike. I am discussed to find a Kona add in the middle of my news feed.I don't mind the side bars etc but seeing a kona add in my news feed ducks me off to the extent tat it makes me less likely to buy Kona
  • + 1
 What good is the hottest girl (or guy) on earth if they treat you like absolute shite? What good is a girl (or guy) if they treat you like god but shag like a pool of jell-o? Get yourself in shape and find one that treats ya right and whose lines you find appealing. Happy shredding!
  • + 1
 The questions are all wrong, no I would not choose fashion over function. But before I consider function I have to like the look of the bike, it has nothing to do with fashion just my own personal view on the aesthetic of the bike. If I like the look and the function suits my purpose then I part with my hard earned. It can be the best bike in the world but if it looks like a turd I won't ride it
  • + 1
 Sorry but that abuse is the result of people finding media hype and the same promises of glory based on keywords boring/old/something to ignore.
We (the technical users) find ourselves looking at stats rather than the drivel, you know, very capable, can hold its own uphill while destroying the downs...more critical reviews are essential.

I'm very Interested in any tweaks or advancements. But it is not a pretty bike, and resembles a catalogue buy from the late 90's. Regardless of function.

Lets see it perform and then maybe the credit will be given.
To expect thunderous applauds on unveiling is kinda lame.
  • + 1
 Also it just does not express function, it looks like its trying to be too much, to cover up a crappy build with tech promise. Thats based on mtb history, which should be understood alongside the criticism. Wolf bike with sound effects kinda thing. I seem to remember the models with that ring based floating bb having equal abuse, along with many others from the automotive industry.
  • + 1
 It's a public forum Paul Aston, and if reading all of the negative comments hurt your feeling, then maybe you should run to your safe space........... (Hopefully there isn't a picture of that ugly ass bike in there with you or it will scar you for life)
  • + 2
 A very good looking bicycle related product would not make me buy it if it doesn't function how I want it to. But a very ugly bicycle related product can make me decide not to buy it and buy something different instead.
  • + 1
 No place to put a water bottle inside the frame instantly takes it off my list. It seems shallow, but I have to like the look of what I am riding. I didn't even open the original article because I don't like the look of this bike. That is my problem, though, and I may miss out on the most amazing ride ever. Just like an artist, a bike designer has to be able to take any criticism that may come along. I would say that this designer has a more than a touch of the artist in him. Good for him, and I hope he keeps expressing himself through the amazing functional medium that is a bicycle!!!!!
  • + 3
 If you have a problem with the 'playas', maybe it's important to remember you invented the game, before taking issue with them.
  • + 1
 I absolutely hate red. I can't stand it. Least favorite colour however most of the stuff I end up riding (snowboards and my bike) end up being this insidious colour. Yet they are the best for me and as such I ride them. I would be down to drop about $500-$1000 to paint my bike it's just too old to be worth it now. (2013 devinci Wilson carbon)
  • + 4
 We buy with our eyes; otherwise I wouldn't have a job as a graphic designer
  • + 3
 im all about performance but man that bike is ugly look at how the chain only touches only one little spot of the chainring. dosnt look that great
  • + 1
 I'm more 'function over form' - but think that's the engineer in me more than anything. With regard to the Saker - I actually quite like it, makes a change from skinny tubes. Interesting that it only comes in 2 sizes though.
  • + 1
 @paulaston - Late to the party but of course it's fashion. I doubt many people here even realize how their "taste" is formed by the industry and the opinions of others. It's basic social norming. The bike doesn't inherintly look good or bad by itself, it's just a machine. And time will tell if it's worth a damn. The problem is really that it just doesn't match the current trend in aesthetics. There was a time that it would - back when Spinergy wheels were popular.

Similar to skinny jeans, the first time you see something that's outside the norm, you reject it. Unless... unless people you look to for style advise (everyone around you and key high-profile individuals) are wearing them. If Pros started showing up in videos riding this bike, winning races on it, it would be enough to convince most people to give it shot. Once there were enough of them out on the trails, it would start to look normal. And then.... no one would notice because they'd all be on to bashing the next out of fashion thing.
  • + 1
 I don't know that it's ugly, but it's for sure different. I ride a GT sensor, and as most other people that have seen or rode GT's newer line up they are for sure different so I can't say that I wouldn't buy that bike based on looks. I would need to know more about how well it performs though.
  • + 5
 Unique is NOT always good looking. Simple as that.
  • + 3
 Yep, and my wife married me despite my unique looks.
  • + 1
 So design is about value. Performs well, not too expensive to make (or buy). Some products can be styled without taking away from function or cost Hard to tell sometimes. But if this bike offers awesome performance at a reasonable cost and a lot of people buy one, it will become desirable
  • + 3
 the word you should have used is form, not 'fashion' The two are entirely unrelated. The question should be 'Form or Function' And the bike is not pretty, sadly.
  • + 1
 Yeah ths peeps are right, it's just an overly busy hunk of carbon that looks heavy & clunky with a stupid idler pulley on it & you lump it in with the likes of Honda & Zerode? Sorry bud but this junk pile is not even in the same league. Those bikes are internally geared & you can plainly see that this one is not. That is the only remaining way to revolutionize & turn this pathetic industry on its head. Don't lump another ugly cookie cutter carbon concraption in with the likes of internally geared experiments that are actually worth doing like Zerode & Honda. It's like putting a Chevy Aveo on the same shelf as a Tesla. :/
  • + 1
 reading just a bit of these comments and i am like, damn people, those are some harsh words.


in Physiology, you can look good, have a nice posture and look like a king on the sidewalk, or in pictures, but us physiotherapists, we see all your little ugly spots and see all the deffects. no one has the perfect feed, and no one the perfect spine, and if you would see a beautifull spine in estathics ways, yo would be slightly disgusted.

Funktion over comes fashion in numbers. function is the faster...

I guess that most of you guys who wouldnt buy this, are more focused on looking fast rather than being actually fast Wink

Cmon guys, ever hucked to flat ? do it, its fun Razz
  • + 1
 Well as my riding bro's will admit. I'm a fashion wreck. I will take function, now in my 50's. I'm not so eager to let the younger shredders snatch my KOM's out of my grasp. I need every edge I can get. Signed 1 year closer to a quad mountain bike.
  • + 0
 Geez I'm really in the minority here, but I took one look at that bike and thought that it was absolutely gorgeous. Totally refined look to it. Looks swoopy and fast. Looks like a totally suuped up C dale Raven had a three some with a Nubian star fighter and a formula 1 race car. I think it looks fuckin cool. But that's just me apparently.
  • + 1
 Personally i think that thing is a work of art, granted some of the pics shown in the article don't do it any favours, but it is stunning. Kudos for using carbon as it should be, not just replicating metal tubes.
  • + 1
 i buy a bike that dose what i want it to and that i think rides nice, but its still gotta look nice. you have to be pretty stupid to blow x amount on a bike you cant stand to look at...
  • + 0
 I think it looks sick! I would buy one if I happened to be a dentist....i work at a shop though, so I am pretty limited on budget...i seriously think that bike is mean looking...i like it...idk...fuck the bandwagon....trolls
  • + 3
 Function over fashion, but a line has to be drawn when something is just plain fugly!!!
  • + 2
 Front Range is too crowded to ride fast, so what the hell do I need function for? May as well look enduro bro while you hang out in the parking lot. I voted for fashion.
  • + 2
 I totally agree that you can't get mad at someone just because they want a good looking bike.
Take a good look at that ugly rear triangle on orange bikes????
  • + 4
 Still don't like the bike......
  • + 2
 l would say FASHION is more important when we look at a picture but FUNCTION is way more important when we seat our asses on it... Just saying
  • + 4
 It's not mean. It's the real world.
  • + 2
 I really like how it looks but then again I liked the look of the whyte 146 (not the function the bike was sh#t ) so what the fu#k do I know
  • + 2
 Maybe it functions well. But for that price I can buy a 2017 Giant Reign 0 Advanced from my LBS and have money left over. And that looks good no matter who you are
  • + 2
 A bike can be aesthetically pleasing and perform well too.

This bike is ugly in my opinion, deal with it. Why do we have an article White Knighting for a bike?
  • + 4
 Still doesn't make the bike any less horrendous
  • + 3
 This might be the wrong place to ask but where can I get a carbon kickstand?
  • + 3
 He called y'all a bunch of fashionistas. How did you reply? By talking about the bike's looks.
  • + 0
 I think that the majority of the comments here just reinforce his point. Not too surprising though unfortunately.
  • + 3
 none of the above, most pinkbike users will say what they think will get them the most props.
  • + 4
 good thing Rachel Atherton didn't design the bike
  • + 2
 lol
  • + 1
 Yea but I bet you it would be fast because she rides with her brothers ????????????

????????????
  • + 1
 Only criticize if you can do better. And no one is forcing you to buy something that you don't like. Sometimes opinions are best left to yourselves. Engineers have feelings too.
  • + 4
 It's still orrible..looks like a big black greasy prawn.
  • + 2
 Lol company releases a new F1 style Bike.... ugliest thing in the market....Poll started for what's important fashion or function... bahahaha
  • + 4
 Function. But only if it looks good.
  • + 2
 I think I saw that one person who said "Fashion" in the coordinated kit, walking his bike through a rock garden this morning.
  • + 3
 Function, price, fashion in that order for me, with the third being inconsequential if function and price are right.
  • + 2
 But given that you can have a fully-built performance bike for the cost of that frame alone, is the price right? And if not, how does fashion fit in now?
  • + 2
 @truffy: if is the best bike on the market, making significant advancement in all areas over what is currently available, and I have the money, I'm in. The fashion doesn't matter to me at that point. In that regard, I look forward to the review. Now, if it's a mild improvement, or even with what's on the market, nah, l'll stick with what I've got (currently a 2015 Yeti SB6C custom build) and enjoy it until something comes along that warrants the switch.
  • + 1
 Function over looks? Why not have both. As a matter of fact, I perform better when I'm riding a bike that looks sexy. It just makes me feel like I have a state of the art machine.
  • + 2
 The market seems to weed out anything that grossly underperforms or happens to be super unconventional in design. In either case though, sometimes a pig gets through.
  • + 0
 Speaking as someone that regards themselves as a bit of a c*nt/troll on the interwebs ( always ripping into people if they're riding any wheel size bigger than 26" lolz) I can proudly say I did not rip into this bike.
If only you twats acted this way towards new industry standards. and 650b + 29ers.
  • + 2
 Wasn't going to post anything after the first article. But now after this I am. I am sorry function aside the bike looks awkward.
  • + 2
 Why do people hate Ellsworths if according to the poll, they don't care about the looks that much?
  • + 7
 Cough cough, the founder was about as terrible a person as has ever owned a mountain bike company. Read the MTBR forums for ellsworth and you'll see why they don't exactly have a good image.
  • + 3
 Because I have seen maybe 20 cracked. I'm sure they have tightened up quality in the last few years. However, their performance has never really been high enough to overcome their cheesy graphics and crazy linkages
  • + 2
 @allix2456: Yeah, ok, didn't know about that, but still most of the comments are about how ugly they are. It just seems to me like we don't want to admit how much we care about fashion.
  • + 1
 that bike looks like shit period. today you can design a perfectly functional and amazing looking bike. so that ugly shit doesnt have place here. KILL IT WITH FIRE.
  • + 1
 I think there is a difference between fashion (what the consensus say is 'in') and whether a bike has the looks that make you want to ride it...
  • - 1
 Poll says more people care about function over fashion... I find that pretty hard to believe when I see all downhill racers wearing baggy clothes instead of aero lycra, even on the world DH circuit. I'm pretty sure the author of this article and many others are lying to themselves if they think they put function over fashion. It seems to come off as a purist thing to criticize those who value fashion as much as function. Everyone knows if you look good, then you feel good. And if you feel good, you're gonna ride good.
  • + 7
 Aero lycra? Skinsuits are banned in World cup DH
  • + 2
 Haters gonna hate. Keep making them bikes Bob Barr. And if I ever sell a kidney, I'll buy one.
  • + 3
 I ran a bright green stem for a year on a all black bike.
  • + 4
 I made a dent in my toptube, so I used a paint stripper to take off about 10x5 centimeters of paint to inspect the damage. After that I thought I'll raw the whole frame, so I took off some more paint in a different place, then I got bored and now I've just been riding it spotty like that.
  • + 2
 If an ugly bike got to the bottom quicker than a nice bike I'd choose the ugly one. It's about speed and enjoyment not looks
  • + 2
 Take Tantrum for example. Straight out of the 90s design. But I've never wanted a bike so bad in my life.
  • + 3
 Lets admit it, no one wants be seen with an ugly girlfriend or boyfriend?
  • + 1
 This bike looks awesome from the pictures on google. The picture on this article is not flattering. You can really see the moto inspiration from the google pictures.
  • + 3
 $5.4k for a frame? Better be form banging sexy! #santacruzbikes
  • + 2
 Reminds me of my old Norco drop and aline. I would ride it just because of the fond memories on the old monocoque frames.
  • + 2
 Yes it does have the old Norco look.
  • + 3
 C'mon bro. Don't tell me that shit don't look broke.
  • + 2
 You telling me the bike design was pure function and with no consideration of how it looks.
  • + 1
 Internal cable routing in itself is form over function.. lets be honest, other than it looks better, what are the advantages?
  • + 2
 I think we need to create a "safe space" for companies whose PR is not well received on Pinkbike
  • + 2
 Rule #1 of the Internet. Never read the comments. Pretty sure the people posting aren't their target demographic.
  • + 1
 I remember when i saw a trek y frame for the 1st time. I lmao for real. But it sold. We're spoiled. There was atime when monocoque frames were hot
  • + 3
 if you painted bacon and an American flag on it people would go nuts.
  • + 1
 If you are paying that much for a bike it better true as F be a game changing ride if it is not going to be beautiful, otherwise what are you paying for?
  • + 1
 I'd rephrase:
"I try to find a balance, but fashion often sways me"
...to:
"All things being equal, I'll take the better looking bike"
  • + 1
 To everybody hating on the stance, The stance is the ideal frame design, you may not like it but this is what peak performance looks like.
  • + 2
 I ride an Orange, nuff said.
  • + 1
 @paulaston your poll should have asked:

Which is uglier the bike or the name?
  • + 2
 If Data Centers can have fashion shows, so can this industry.
  • + 1
 look up pics of the bike in real life without the white background. It looks alot better
  • + 2
 Its nearly 2017. I want both! End of story
  • + 1
 Should get a Pink Bike award for Ugliest bike of the year, re-name to Arbr Nut Saker
  • + 1
 A poll that finally exposes pinkbike readers for what they are - fashionistas, not mountain bikers.
  • + 1
 It's friggin' ugly Paul and nothing is going to change the minds of the many who feel the same...
  • + 2
 I'd like the bike more if it could carry a water bottle.
  • + 1
 The bike reminds me of "local" garage production www.introcycles.com Big Grin
  • + 2
 That bike looks like it belongs in 2004
  • + 2
 first step of going fast is looking fast
  • + 1
 This bike pretty much uses the same suspension design as the Commencal DH bike #justSaying
  • + 1
 If cost maybe $1500 for the frameI'd consider trying one but for $5500..............................
  • + 2
 Fuck the mountain bike world is getting soft
  • + 1
 i'm no design expert but i actually really like the look of the bike. it looks super well engineered and built
  • + 0
 I like the look but what do I know I have a 3 yr old aluminum bike with 26 inch wheels and no dropper post.
  • + 1
 Muppets on here slag a bike if it isn't color coordinated.
  • + 0
 The biggest problem with this bike to me is the cosmetics seem to detract from the function rather than add to it.
  • + 1
 The butt hurt is strong in this one
  • + 1
 Give the bike another chance!!!
  • + 1
 Skankhunt42 strikes again
  • + 1
 Mtb and cycling in general is becoming the new golf
  • + 0
 i know, its sad
  • - 1
 Becoming!!
Ha ha it always has been
Smile
  • + 0
 @nojzilla: in england and the states, yes.
  • + 1
 True that. When I got into riding it wasn't cool to ride bikes. Now that it's cool people wrap too much of their identity into it and find ways to marginalized others to exclude them from the country club.
  • + 0
 Damn, nailed it. ???? horror
  • + 1
 It's all about how fast you look.
  • + 0
 im so happy because i read this, it totally changed my thinking about working on a product to bring it to life.
  • + 1
 As long as it's #enduro I'll buy it!
  • + 1
 The thing looks like an e-bike.
  • + 1
 Fashion depends on function
  • + 1
 I thought it was an e bike when I first saw the picture. Lol!
  • + 0
 The most important thing is how you look.
  • + 0
 it looks like it should have a battery in it
  • + 0
 Well, for starters it was missing a mount for a water bottle, duh?
  • + 0
 Build my own, more fun on two wheels
  • - 1
 I like it. Can't afford it but it's pretty sick!
  • + 0
 Ride with Style!
  • - 1
 @paulaston I thought the bike was amazing.
  • + 0
 Looks like a session
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