We're currently in the midst of some rather nerdy content at Pinkbike.
Behind the Numbers is in full swing, taking a look at the suspension systems of five trail bikes and how the values and curves line up to the way the bikes ride. Our
latest podcast got in-depth with bike setup and how our tech editors prefer to have their bikes working.
Some of you are evidently enjoying this down the rabbit hole approach to the geeky side of bikes. However, some of you think we should just go and ride our bikes. I'd like to say that we do both and am very grateful for the members of the industry, past and present, who like to chin scratch over the numbers
and ride their bikes. Without them we wouldn't be where we are today and the bikes simply wouldn't be at the level they are, allowing you to extract as much fun as possible when you do go and ride. The whole 'just go ride your bike' argument for me is a little invalid.
Unfortunately then, for those amongst you who use that argument, this week’s poll is looking into suspension systems. I've had my head in them for the past four weeks and will do for the coming future so I'm dragging you in there with me.
Maybe this is my drum to beat, but engineering a bike is a practice in the art of balance. There are so many factors involved, each with their unique advantages and disadvantages when you tweak their individual dials that it makes plate spinning while juggling stood on one leg look like a doddle. It's not a check list that you work through, but more constant cycles of iteration that ever decrease in the adjustment size until either your deadline arrives or you sit back and know you've hit it bang on. If those two arrive at the same time then it's a jackpot.
Looking at just the suspension system, which our latest podcast touched on, you have so many factors all at work together. How the bike will compress the shock, how it will rebound, how it will react to acceleration and deceleration, different construction methods, pivot hardware, packaging for the rest of the components on the bike, the list is big. Even the cable routing can be a driver to defining a suspension layout!
With each brand and individual having a different set of drivers to approach each project with, let alone opinions, experiences and environmental factors, it's simply no surprise that we have the vast array of designs out there that we do. I for one find it fascinating and love playing Sherlock Holmes to find out the reasons why certain bikes are the way they are.
Without further ado, we ask you, what's your favourite suspension system? And we've somewhat removed the marketing terms from the categories to see exactly the layout you like, or help you understand which bike is actually which layout.
Single PivotExample - Orange bikesAbout as simple as a suspension system as you can get. But don't let that simplicity fool you into thinking the performance is lacking, quite the contrary. These bikes have a swingarm between the mainframe and rear axle with that swing arm also driving the shock.
Single Pivot Linkage DrivenExample - Commencal Meta TRStill a single pivot, with a swing arm between the main pivot on the main frame and the rear axle, but now with a separate linkage system used to drive the shock. Same number of pivots as the four-bar bikes.
Single Pivot with Concentric Rear AxleExamples - Trek's ABP and Devinci's Split PivotStill a single pivot with a linkage driving the shock, but the difference comes when looking at the braking characteristics as the caliper is technically mounted on the seat stay and not the chain stay, like the other single pivot bikes.
High Single Pivot with An IdlerExample - Commencal Supreme DH bikeStill a single pivot, but now pushed so high that the amount of chain extension needs to be addressed with an idler pulley, changing the chain line. Most high single pivot bikes drive the shock via a pull style linkage tucked away between the swing arm and main frame.
Long Link Four-BarExamples - Nukeproof Mega and RAAW MadonnaNow we disconnect the rear axle directly from the main frame, and introduce the instant centre. All the frame members, or bars, are long and usually this includes a Horst pivot doing the disconnecting between the main frame and rear axle. The Nukeproof drives the shock with a top mounted link and the RAAW uses a rocker link. You can also drive the shock using a bottom mounted link a la Specialized Stumpjumper.
Short Link Four-Bar, Co-RotatingExamples - Ibis Ripmo and Unno DashIf we push that Horst pivot, usually out by the rear axle, way closer to the main frame then we come to a short link bike. Still a four-bar system but now with two much shorter links connecting the rear triangle to the main frame. One differentiating point is that the links are rotating in the same direction.
Short Link Four-Bar, Counter-RotatingExamples - Santa Cruz and Intense bikesSame as above but now the links rotate in opposite directions. The shock can be driven off either the top link or the bottom link.
Four-Bar with a SliderExample - YetiAlways an advocate for something slightly different, Yeti have been using sliding components to their suspension systems for a long time. Their latest Switch Infinity system has the rear triangle pivoting on a slider that moves up and down as the bike goes through its travel.
High Pivot Four-Bar with An IdlerExample - GT Fury DH bikeStill four bars, but if you so wish you can point the IC up real high compared to other four-bar systems. The same issue arises however as the high single pivot designs - you need to account for the huge chain growth with routing the main chain line higher up and closer to the high IC.
Four-Bar with a Leaf SpringExample - Spot RyveStill technically a four-bar, but instead of the lower link pivoting at each end, Spot fix where it mounts the rear triangle and use a leaf spring idea to allow the movement.
LawwillExample - Old Rotec bikesBack to the idea of the Horst pivot, but now the other seat stay pivot is dragged back close to the rear axle. Looks exactly like popular race car suspension systems, but the wheel and direction of travel is turned 90 degrees.
Six LinkExamples - New Specialized Demo and Enduro and Atherton BikesTake a four-bar system, and then add a couple more links. In the case of the new Specialized Demo and Enduro, and Canyon Sender for that matter, the bike's instant centre is defined by the main four-bar system and then the shock is driven from a separate linkage system. So it's as linkage driven four-bar system, but with six links.
In the case of the Atherton bikes, the extra two bars are actually in between the chain stay and the main frame, essentially creating an instant centre for just the chain stay, which then is taken into account when calculating the instant centre of the whole suspension system. The shock is then driven by means of a rocker link. This is then a 6-bar system.
HardtailJust for a laughWhen this suspension system poll idea was trialled out at one of our daily Pinkbike meetings, hardtail came back as an answer. Me gusta, so it's in here as a cat amongst the pigeons.
Before I read through the options I was hoping to answer with "coil"
If we pick one now, can we change our answer next year when some bike manufacturer again claims to come up with the newest and latest design?
Seriously, I'm sure most everyone will just pick the suspension that they know and ride, as I'm sure most people have not ridden more than half of these rear suspension designs...
The Atherton bikes, with the DW6 link, actually use 6 links to define the axle path with 4 pieces connecting the BB to the rear axle as opposed to the 2 on a standard Horst link.
When racing cars you want to avoid that since you don't want huge loads in you precision suspension components. Look at the shocks (struts) used for wrc cars where the layout is used due to the requirements of the stock cars on which the race cars are based on.
As for formulas, mostly all of them these days use double wishbone suspension of some sorts with inboard shocks and springs. F1 uses essentialy solid mounted wheels (no pivots on the wishbones) and with torsion springs, one damper and torsion bar either corner of the car to handle roll and some shocks, they have additional heave springs and dampers on each axle to prevent the car from squatting under aero load, then they have inerters to minimize force spikes on the tyre tread surface to improve grip, the, and the can run the car without certain elements (no torsion bars or roll dampers for example), etc.
All this just to get a stable aero platform by keeping the car as constantly spaced from the road as possible.
That's all some of us have.
It's very hard to meet people in the time of COVID.
How about Tomac's kevlar cord laced rear wheel "suspension" on his hardtail on the Mammoth Mountain Kamakaze?
Old school right there.
mbaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Down_3_PATH.jpg
All 3 have very specific patents that are the mainstays of mountain biking. During their patent phases, there was no way around any of them to get a bike to ride right. Faux bar is the only other thing to me.
Every other "design" is just a work around the 3 ways to make a mountain work right.
Giant needed a new suspension platform after being sued by Specialized after Giant had developed NRS with Renault. They didn't want that headache again so they had to start anew - hence the creation of Maestro.
Favorite is definitely the Horst link. DW link was definitely superior in performance but Horst link is definitely superior in fun factor. Worst was devinci and VPP.
Anyway, agree to disagree. We are just spinning wheels in debate.
One thing Ive been learning to do is isolate systems from one another. It doesn't matter how your shock is driven, how many funny little weird links there are and how many pivots you have (which must be either 1 or 4, structurally i think, outside of shock links), all that matters is the path your axle draws.
how your shock is driven doesn't affect handling outside of progression and stiffness.
"I asked for 3 good bouncers tonight!
I've got one that will stay in their seat at the rear, one that will sue me as soon as they sense trouble, and finally - one that can't do squat!"
I think I’ve demo’d a normal Horst link, DW link, and own a linkage driven single pivot. All of them have felt fine honestly. Maybe if the demos were for more than 30min I’d have a stronger opinion.
So far as long as the anti squat values are high enough, and the suspension is setup correctly for the bike and my weight... they all let me get out there and enjoy the ride. Which is really all I care about so far.
Also, what about riding type/style? What works for DH isn't necessarily going to be the best for XC.
I'm super curious about the GT. My brain says that the host+high pivot would theoretically ride DH the best, but I haven't ridden one.
@GTBicycles Make make me that bike with
- a 20-25% progressivity
- AS that stars around 130% hits 100% at sag, then drops into the 50-60%s a full,
- a nice flat AR curve anywhere between 50-80%
- a Rear axle path that tracks about the same as the fork
Plz Ty
And what is meant with single pivot? No pivots allowed in between "main" pivot and shock mount?
What is meant by concentric rear axle? is the axle itself also a pivot between chain and seat stays? If so, wouldn't that mean it's no longer a single pivot?
As said above, linkage driven single pivots need both a direct connection between the rear wheel and main pivot through the chainstay, as well as a pivot on the seatstay. Concentric rear axles accomplish both these things by keeping a direct connection from wheel to chainstay, and a pivot between the rear axle and seatstay.
And what is concentric is the center of the rear axle and the center of a pivot, I think I get it.
I also remember just hucking it into anything. "Whatever, bikes got this!"
I love me ole school geo ht, so fun and poppy. But a basic full susser is on me want list, riding ht can be brutal for us chronically ill dudes, hence a nice fs to help stay on mtbing. The hyper viking trail looks like an excellent entry, very upgradable, best part... Genuine hydroformed frame, very well made/finished, setup 1 by 8 out of the box, all for $398 cdn.
Also Pinkbike: what’s your favorite suspension design other than the delta link?
Anyways, mine is the delta and whatever the single pivot with the lever than my nicolai and clashes, jeffsys, etc have
What's far easier for me is to select my least favourite!!! The Unified Rear Triangle. Never rode one that I thought was even OK. They were all terrible. Guess that's why I haven't even seen one in about 15 years (maybe more).
It felt similar to the short-link co-rotating four bars with less sag point sensitivity. (I don't see it on their website anymore,I guess they dropped it this year).
For those unfamiliar, it looked like the short link designs but had rear triangle that was flexible and added an extra link connecting the upper and lower links so it had an extra degree of tuning.
The suspension simply works. It is either i get the compulsion 2020 or a Yeti. next.
-Flex triangle: early Cannondale scalpel
-Single pivot with a flex rear triangle: Yeti ASR, Kona hei hei
-Pull-shock: Cannondale Jekyll
Also, some noticeable players missing, like Canfield (multiple), Delta... not sure what else.
Not sure why this “poll” exists other than to see what’s hot in the public’s eye, which has nothing to do with the actual quality of various suspension designs. I know I just voted for what I currently ride.
Here's a discussion: www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomments/?threadid=218563
For The Win
F&%k The World
Frank The Welder
For those who like a bit of facts / science, have a read here:
www.i-tracksuspension.com/suspensiontheory.html
The slider acts as an infinitely long link (hence Switch Infinity). Imagine the pivot in the middle of the slider is the rear end of this link and the other end is infinitely far in front of (or behind) the bike, perpendicular to the axis of the sliders. Same function, but a lot more compact than an infinitely long link!
Should we give the 2020 rocky mnt slayer a 2nd chance and a proper review?
Aggghhh what do I know about bikes , just want to ride
Because long link 4 bar and VPP is all ive ever ridden but I'd really like to try this high pivot craze!
Downcountry was bad enough, don't make "6-bar" happen.
The Atherton bikes actually have 4 pieces between the BB and the rear axle, while a Horst link design has two.
Which ever works. ))
Which suspension design uw that?
That would make it difficult to manual