Pole Bicycles Announces New CNC-Machined 'Machine' - Press Release

Nov 23, 2017
by Paul Aston  
Pole Machine


PRESS RELEASE Pole Bicycles: 24/11/17


Pole Machine

There is a new Pole coming and it will redefine how a frame is manufactured, the frame will be robotically CNC machined. A presale campaign will start on Black Friday 24.11.2017. The new frame will be called Machine and will be 100% made in Finland. The machining time is confidential but we can confidently say that we will mass produce the frames early next year onward from our secret factory in Finland. We will bond the frame pieces together in Jyväskylä and quality control the process under our very own roof.

The Machine is a cutting edge 29" superbike which can be used as the one bike for everything. The travel on the bike is 180mm front and 160mm rear. The frame geometry follows Pole's notoriously long and slack geometry with steep seat tube for better climbing. On our tests, the Machine was even easier to ride than the EVOLINK's.



Pole Machine rendering
Machine Details

• 7075 T6 aluminium machined frame
• Travel: R - 160mm / F - 180mm (recommended)
• EvoLink Suspension
• 29" wheels
• 3x water bottle mounts
• Made in Finland
• Available to order 24/11/17
www.polebicycles.com






We will machine the whole frame and mass produce it ourselves.

The Machine is 100% a Pole design just like our other frames. The head of design, Leo Kokkonen (Who is also the inventor behind Huck Norris) is responsible for the engineering and design, from the kinematics to the last slice of machining. The prototype frame and links are machined from 7075 T6 billets with titanium axles. The front and the rear triangles are made of three parts that are bonded together with glue, similar methods are being used in car and airplane industries.


So what's better with the Machine?

Everything! The bike is lighter, stronger and faster. Honestly! We know it's the same bs as everyone else is claiming but we can actually back it up. The Pole EVOLINK is probably the fastest bike on the planet at the moment. Enduro mountain bike magazine made a speed test among the best bikes in the world. We sent our stock bike (4800€) to compete with 10 000€ factory tuned world champion bikes and we were second fastest and missed out on the top spot by hundreds of a second.

7075 T6 aluminium is 1,7 times stronger than conventional bike alloy 6061 T6. This makes it possible to manufacture the frame to be much lighter than normal aluminium bikes. Machining from high-quality billets that are also used in the aerospace industry means a superior material is used. The heat treatment is also more consistent than heat treating the frames in an oven.

With the machining processes, we can control the wall thickness where ever we want, instead of having a "ballpark" thickness like with hydroforming. If we compare the process to carbon, it's faster, cleaner and we think it's a more humane way of making bikes. Also, we can be sure how much stiffness we have in each place instead of having rough calculations and assumptions as it is with carbon. Our bikes are safe to use and you can actually see the possible frame damage with the naked eye. When it comes to carbon frames, you need to ultrasound the frame if you want to be sure it's OK.


bigquotesFrom a solid block of tool aluminium, machined into a superbike that is the ultimate expression of mountain biking. The excitement, the speed, the most striking experience as a rider.Pole Bicycles


Pole Machine rendering


We don't need paint!

Most bike frames need paint because the production finishing is not very appealing. The machined frame is left as it is to reveal the exclusive process. The best feature of this is that the frame is not prone to scratches and wear. The 7075 surface is hard and the machined surface camouflages the possibility scratches and wear. The oxidation process of the frame over time will produce a classy patine. Rather than having a worn out bike you will have a machine with charisma. We may introduce colours in the future but the raw finish is what we really like at the moment.


Special features

Asymmetric shock - The Machine features an asymmetric shock to create more seat tube insert length, as the dropper posts are getting longer.

External cable routing - The frame has only external cable routing to keep things more simple. The top and down tubes are shaped so that the cables are hidden in plain sight. You can still use Stealth dropper posts which will feed through a very accessible port on the seat tube.

Three bottle mounts - It's possible to fit three bottles on the frame. Two inside and one the outside of the front triangle. It's possible to store more stuff on the bike rather than using a backpack.

Low standover - We rotated the shock 90 degrees and have created even more standover space than on our EVOLINK which is already one of the lowest on the market.

Super clearance - It's possible to run a 3" tire on the back. Mud clogs with the standard 2.35" tires will be a thing of the past.



bigquotesThe Machine has been the dream of Leo, he has designed a cutting edge bike imagined and inspired by nature, his surroundings and fundamentally his goal to create the fastest, most striking bike ever.Pole Bicycles


Pole Machine in action


What next?

We have lots more exciting projects coming up. Next, we are going to produce a 200mm travel DH bike that will be raced at the UCI DH World Cup piloted by Isak Leivsson from Norway. After that, we'll make a light trail / XC bike with 140mm travel and finally, we will go electric with an electrically assisted superbike. Also, we will release an updated version of our Taival hardtail and a dirt jump bike Tomu. Visit www.polebicycles.com for more.


Pole Machine in action



501 Comments

  • + 235
 Well that's given me a bit of a pole...
  • + 34
 But in all seriousness after Pole's recent environmental tirade against carbon I hope the (presumably large amount of) waste material that comes from CNC milling a frame gets recycled into snow machines for polar bears or something. Even if the frame is in 3 parts glued together with eco glue surely there is a lot of waste?
  • + 107
 @JoeRSB: Aluminium shavings can be be reforged into more billet. There is no waste in the same way as carbon.
I'd be more interested in hearing about how they are going to limit the amount of machine time and energy consumption.
  • + 313
 @raytheotter: zero emissions - their machines run on a mixture of guilt and good intentions. Workers eat only vegetables, their farts are gathered and compressed to a tank and power a hydraulic press...
  • + 101
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm out then. If i'm going to buy a fancy mtb I want it to be fueled by the tears of pandas.
  • + 11
 @raytheotter: 'CAN' be reforged - but are Pole ensuring it? Apparently carbon can also be recycled as well!

I think they've opened themselves to some scrutiny in terms of their environmental credentials, although they are at least trying to lead by example, which I applaud muchly, even if they are a very minor player it's a well intention-ed step in the right direction
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: lol, made my day
  • + 50
 @raytheotter: as soon as I bought my carbon bike I started flushing hamsters in the toilet and throwing kittens into branch shredder. What have I become...
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: A soulless mtb'er?
  • + 4
 @JoeRSB: UNNO is working on recycling carbon yet they don't apply for Nobel Peace Prize
  • + 134
 Machine companies will sell back the chips from the CNC machine usually to a third party, which will give them a reasonably fair price for it. So yes, there is plenty of reason to believe that all excess material will be recycled because Pole would be losing money otherwise. As for the extra energy required for machining these frames from a solid billet, Finland uses roughly 50% renewable energy.

Recycling carbon will be almost impossible for a while. The cross linking thermoset matrix the industry currently uses is extremely difficult to separate from the fibers. There are processes that burn the matrix from the fiber, or dissolve it using a chemical process, but neither of these are 100% successful and returning a virgin quality fiber that can be reused in new products. Until the industry can use a thermoplastic matrix that can be heated and removed from the fibers, recycling carbon will never be feasible on large scale.

Sure there are inefficiencies in this process, just like every other process. But almost any other material is better than carbon when it comes to environmental consciousness for bicycles. It's a different story for aircraft, given that the lower weight air craft use less fuel. But for a purely leisure product, there isn't really a good reason to use carbon. Unfortunately the bike industry is pushing it down people's throat regardless of whether or not it's actually better for the consumer.
  • + 19
 @WAKIdesigns: Last time I visited a machine shop, I notice CNC machines being way more efficient than a regular milling machines. So comparing a CNC machine to someone layering carbon fiber, it's like comparing night and day.

And there is a big market for recycling metal, specially aluminum, but not for carbon fiber... It's kind safe to say they will sell the shaving and scraps to make some extra money.
  • + 27
 @core559: Very informative, thankyou.
  • + 2
 @raytheotter: pandas don't cry!
  • + 24
 @Jimmybikes: The ones in Edinburgh Zoo did when they took deep fried battered bamboo and Irn-bru off the menu.
  • + 8
 @JoeRSB: I used to work in a machine shop, and we always sold our "waste" aluminum shavings to a recycling company that would do something with it. As far as I know anyways... Point is: aluminum is expensive to refine and easy to recycle, so you may as well recycle. Carbon fiber can be recycled, but is very difficult to recycle, so recycling carbon is not pheasable.
  • + 31
 "we care about the environment" next up... A ebike! Those batteries are way worse than carbon...
  • + 6
 @Gregorysmithj1: But Lithium ion batteries are at least proven to be recyclable on a mass scale, even if it isn't being done yet.

Carbon is incredibly energy intensive to produce. Last time I did any research, it had about 3x the embodied energy compared to aluminum.

Do you have any proof or studies showing carbon fiber is worse that lithium batteries?
  • + 1
 @core559: My uneducated opinion.... carbon fiber frames last longer is a frame that has 2x long life time better than the production and shipping of one aluminum frame + battery? What about the higher pay and labor of carbon that's a plus in my view its giving a person a job not a machine.. china strip mines for batteries taking out whole mountains, tons of eco damage just for a hobby it's not like a emtb is saving local pollution like a electric car or a e commuter bike.
  • + 14
 @JoeRSB: Recycling aluminum back to billet uses about 9% of the energy used to smelt the aluminum from bauxite in the first place, making it a no brainer to recycle, you can almost do it at home. It is actually cost effective with aluminum, whereas "recycling" carbon fibre is a whole other story.
  • + 4
 @Gregorysmithj1: I would argue the opposite, I see cracked carbon frames on a daily basis, but aluminum frames almost never crack/fail. Perhaps that's the dependent on the quantity of both being sold. But one could argue that either way if provided with the appropriate data, however I highly doubt any company will release their warranty data to the public.

Aluminum frames are hand welded. Almost no machines are used in the assembly/welding of a bicycle (head tubes, BB shells, drop outs, etc... are obviously machined, forged, or turned on their respective machine), whether that be aluminum or carbon. There could possibly be a few more jobs involved with hand laying a composite bicycle frame, but the additional energy usage (huge electric ovens to cure the epoxy, with production rates as low as 1 frame per day) are massive compared to aluminum. But this is mixing worker's rights into a discussion of environmental impact...

Don't get me wrong, I hate e-mtb on so many levels. But carbon is comparably bad. The only place e-bikes belong is as a car supplement and/or replacement where they can actually do some good.
  • + 4
 I'm really curious about the glue.
What is it?
Is it biodegradable?
Can the aluminium with glue on it be recycled?

More information, please, Pole!

And the thing with the batteries of the E-Bikes is interesting as well.

I would apreciate it very much if Pole finds good ways to realize and improve those things.
  • + 9
 @Brightside: It's going to be a similar epoxy to what is used as the matrix material in a composite frame. It's not biodegradable, and not really recycleable. But if you dump an aluminum frame into a molten pot, it will burn off. on a composite bike frame, roughly 50% of the weight of the frame is the epoxy matrix. The epoxy might make up 1% of the weight of this frame if they're very liberal with its application.
  • + 9
 that is SEXY! I WANT IT!
  • + 1
 @core559: well said!
  • + 0
 @core559: I was just thinking the exact. same. thing. Very well said.
  • - 2
 @pedrocaio182: if you think that CNCing a frame is more efficient than welding tubes together then good luck.

@core559 - just because carbon fiber is much harder to recycle doesn’t convince me a bit about greenery of this whole enterprise. If they can present me whole life cycle analysis of their stuff against Antidotes, Treks or unnos cf producrion I call it self righteous bullshit
  • + 7
 youtu.be/-ZQzfwdHf1I

Interesting video about carbon recycling for anyone who cares.
  • + 1
 @JoeRSB: oh ... now I remember who they are! The people who did not even know about the Specialized in dept study about the environmental impact of different frame materials.

It looks like they are at it again: making ridiculous claims without one ounce of documentation to support them.
  • + 1
 @JoeRSB: This is the whole point of using alloy. easily recycled.
  • + 6
 @duzzi: Yeah, cause absolutely no one else in the bike industry are making ridiculous marketing claims...
  • + 3
 Boing-boing! That is a piece of art.
  • + 13
 @Brightside: The glue is toxic but the amount of the glue is fraction of a thousand when we compare it to the resin mass used in carbon frame. The biggest carbon footprint is made when the aluminium is produced from bauxite with electricity. We are lucky though that the countries that produce in future more eco-friendly electricity from wind, solar and nuclear power plants.
  • + 91
 @WAKIdesigns: 1.The frame is machined in Finland using maybe the greenest energy possible. 2. Aluminium is recyclable. 3. Carbon can not be RE-CYCLED. You can burn the resin off and use the carbon waste MAYBE once. That's not recycling, it's waste management.

We use robots instead of humans. That's something that we value more. "Creating jobs" is politic bs. Creating and meaningful jobs is the future. I teach my son to design, not to work in a factory.

We try to do our best. I think that if you look Finland (Like Sweden, where you live currently) in any standard, we do pretty good compared to the rest of the world. I don't get your accusations because Finland is doing good in education, environment, corruption, technology and happiness standards. What are the odds that we here at Pole invented a scheme that we try to sell to the rest of the world? In no offense, I think you need to explain your "self righteous bullshit" a bit more clearly.
  • + 15
 @duzzi: Ahem. The study does not give any superiority to carbon fiber frames. Carbon can still not be RE-cycled. The resin is burned and the carbon waste is not good for re-use. This is just waste management.
  • + 12
 @Gregorysmithj1: What bollocks. There's no evidence at all that carbon frames last longer, because they don't.
  • + 0
 @Gregorysmithj1: It does if you ride to the trail instead of using your truck.
  • - 1
 There is one more thing - Pole's method has potential to become cheaper with time, just like every process which is automated. Creating carbon frames does not (those greedy bastards* in china keep wanting an extra bowl or rice every few years).

*this was just an irony, I have a huge respect for people which work very hard for their living.
  • + 4
 @ssteve: That was awesome. Would have liked to see some decent prepreg or better another bike come out in the end. If bikes can be made of billet and turned back into billet I'd like to see one made from completely recycled billet. Come on Pole make a bike from 100% recycled materials.
  • + 11
 @polebicycles: Its a truly innovative approach, congrats on offering something different to the MTB community.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 24, 2017 at 2:03) (Below Threshold)
 @polebicycles: bicycles are not riding on frames only don't they? There's plenty of components on bikes that all need to be produced then shipped all around the world. Aluminium production is not green, mountain biking is not green it is an energy expensive hobby producing lots of toxic waste and byproducts like exhaust fumes, I bet you don't sail a boat to Malaga and don't pedal to the top don't you?

You bash carbon with focusing solely on the idea of recycling which in the bigger picture is just drowning in the ocean of other processes necessary to manufacture a bicycle and all it's parts, make it end up in your bike stand and then be ridden in the mountains, finally getting thrown to the garbage piece by piece.

As for someone who observed a renovation of a 4000sqm office building, where everything has been stripped and demolished, windows, doors, partition walls, installations, lighting, I really could not care as much for bicycles. I watched tons of material that was still functional offices to be demolished and driven away to make room for "fresh" ecological stuff. Building will get gold bream certificate in two years. And that's one of many buildings in this city. I just calculated amount of garbage generated by 140 house holds in housing project we are drawing. 80sqm room filled with trash cans. Emptied every week. Bicyles... and what bicycles are we talking about some 0.1% of all bicycles. Look at this terrible crap sold in supermarkets, what shit is commuting to work every day. E-bikes. They are now subsidized in our green Scandinavia. E-bikes - subsidized, regular bikes, not. Some idiots thought that if they pay you 20% of value of your e-bike you will stop driving your car, you'll just head out into the wind and rain in hilly terrain with smile on your face, while majority of bike commuters in the city do it because they cover short distance and it is freaking convenient for them. Not because they care for Polar Bears. That's Scandinavia, chose a tiny bit of your activity, make it "as green as possible" that is convenient for you and brag about it, while you do everything else just like everyone else, everywhere else. Volvo and Ikea are perfect examples.

I understand that you are trying to be a good guy. I bet the same is true for the engineer at Specialized or Trek. I think I understand why you do it, I'm happy for you that you can create a product that you stand behind. good luck with your business. But from my stand point I don't buy a single argument of yours, at least not in that tone while it seems you just figured out it is too hard for your small company to manage tricky manufacture of carbon frames in Asia. Quality control in particular. You'd have to sit there yourself or find someone trusted that is eager to do it. It seems it led to a good thing though.
  • + 3
 @core559: most bikes suffer from impacts in the down tube,I saw dozen of cf bikes cracked in the BB area or down tube due the lack of protection. Most CF frames come stock whit a rubber insert that can do nothing or little against 3-4 kg rock moving fast. Alloy bike are no exception,alloy is not so good on taking impacts but it dents instead of cracking. Some brands sold enduro bikes whit 0 protection against trail damage,that is not realistic.
  • + 9
 @homerjm: and yet when brake lines and mech cables are routed down there, apparently it's "never been a problem"...
@WAKIdesigns: do you think they don't honestly have any positive intentions and haven't genuinely attempted to try and back these up? Nothing's perfect, but even intangible positive messages are worth something - just look at how powerful negative messages can be in politics (backed up by nothing). Maybe I'm naive enough to think that the Finns and other Scandinavians are driven by motivations other countries would do well to aspire to.
  • + 34
 @WAKIdesigns: So your point is: if you can't save the world by yourself once and for all, there's no point in even trying to affect the things you can?

What a noble mindset you have..
  • + 1
 @BenPea: I'm far from being Polish here Smile I'm happy to live in Scandinavia and there's only a few other places in the world I could consider myself living and I think they are limited to BC and New Zealand. Maybe Colorado. Nothing's perfect... Jesus... THIS IS WHAT I AM GETTING AT!!! Exactly. So don't point fingers at others so easily. I also give Pole some benefit of doubt, and as I said, I love the bikes, I love Huck Norris, but the way they spun this whole thing is just laughable. I also won't comment on CNCing the whole frame as a revolutionary way of making frames because they and Empire may be the only ones to ever do use that COMPROMISE. It's like an owner of Porsche with start/stop system calling out an owner of one without it on being a polluter.
  • + 5
 @hirvi: no. That's not what I mean, what I propose and how I behave. But you seem to like "Are you with us or against us" attitude so good luck with that one. There's enough practical reasons to go for energy efficient solutions without needing to throw shit at anyone. Like biking to work. For me and many people around here it is simply convenient. So is eating veggies often. So is not owning a car.

UNNO or Antidote bikes or BTR do their best to minimize their impact on environment while making bikes. Do you see them talking down to people? No, Cowards!!! Fkng cowards!!! - you see that's the mentality that led you to write your post.

And BTW, what happens with carbon and alu and steel bike production is China is everyone's fault due to driving down the prices. So please... have you never bought a cheap bike? Like I just bought a Meta HT 20 for my daughter? Aren't you writing from a computer made in Asia? Enjoying all this exchange of information thanks to the manufacture that often disregards environment?

You can talk about environmentalism just make sure you include yourself as a problem in it. And that excludes possibility to talk down to people since you sit ears deep in shit you made and which benefits you enjoy. I personally don't see it as shit. I'm handling my guilt quite well.
  • - 2
 3450 euro... Holy motherf***.. that is more than a Santa Cruz Frame in carbon!!

f*ck ideals... let's go carbon again!
Glad my YT Capra is fully loaded at 4500 euro... oh they have discount? Make it 4000 euro then Wink
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: Aren't you a little bit too pessimistic? You have very good arguments, but it's a good thing Pole puts the issue on the table is it not? I for example never thought about the footprint of carbon. Now I do.
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Hehe, I edited out the Polish bit, but you're fast mofo... There is less than half a sentence in this PR about their clean credentials and you've written an essay slamming them for it (or pointing fingers as you say). Positivity is good too, try it out.
  • - 2
 @JWP: you should think of footprint of EVERYTHING, educate yourself about externalities of your daily life and your hobbies. Putting it down on carbon is a mental mechanism to gain followers. When you have little, then in order to elevate yourself you need to put someone down. All our brains work this way. The goal is to educate yourself and ask critical questions and then educate yourself again. Please google how aluminium for bikes is made, how carbon is made, steel, how raw materials are extracted, yeah I agree great motivation but don't just say Oh we went there it was horrible and from now on we decided to be good people. And who picks up that vibe most?! People who want a carbon bike but in one way or another can't afford it or are sceptical on it. FGiving them information presented in this way is just giving them guns for self destruction. I can't have carbon bike so now I can shit on all of them. Yet another argument!

For the record. At my household there is one carbon frame and 6 aluminium ones. Now if world is black and white... tell me... is it one carbon bike too many? Or am I generally a good guy for leaning more towards aluminium? Or should i be more eco if I owned 2 carbon bikes instead of 6 other ones. Or do I just have too many bikes? Now what if I told you that 4 of them belong to two of my kids and one to my wife?

Relativity takes intellect and energy to manage. Hence playing teams is easy and takes little computing power. Again, congrats to Pole for the great bike with cool geometry and amazing looks, genuinely unique character
  • + 13
 @WAKIdesigns: Yes, i'm aware of those things. Yes, half of my stuff is made in cheap countries, that's because i'm not a dentist. No, i'm not wallowing in consumerism and thus try to get myself quality stuff that last, and not buy a new shining overpriced iphone every year. And with that mindset, i can appreciate what @polebicycles are trying to do, even if i can see the marketing bs behind those claims and realise they're not capable of saving the world alone.

You on the other hand, seem like a person who is not happy with anything someone else does, and seem to get some weird satisfation from bashing others.

I wish Pole success, even if i can't afford the Machine for now. It's an awesome consept!
  • + 23
 @polebicycles: don't worry he knows not what he speaks of. The amount of rubbish waki writes here makes it mathematically impossible he still has time to ride. None the less stand your ground and the the bike looks very promising.
  • + 2
 @hirvi: "You on the other hand, seem like a person who is not happy with anything someone else does, and seem to get some weird satisfation from bashing others".
It's not his fault, he's from Poland. Decades of Communism in conjunction with catholic mentality have shaped our nation and it requires many generations to overcome such attitude.
  • + 4
 @lkubica: Somewhere in Sweden a keyboard as getting pummelled.
  • + 0
 can be. right now making new is cheaper than recycling. that i think is an issue for the government to solve. (not that we as a person or company or whatever do not have to play our part in this matter)
  • - 6
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 24, 2017 at 5:15) (Below Threshold)
 blah...
  • - 7
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 24, 2017 at 5:20) (Below Threshold)
 @hirvi - again, projecting your own vision of someone who doesn't agree with your viewpoint on others. I said it few times here that I love that bike and I am also quite happy with most bikes out there. So don't put that into my mouth. I may have been shitting on carbon rims, boost, 27.5. My favorite is people who hate plus or e-bikes. I love to troll them.

@Keit - you sound like Sean Connery peeing on mouth of a peasant.
  • + 2
 @JoeRSB: It would be EXTREMELY unprofitable not to recycle when machining billet aluminium. You get back more than half of what you paid for the material by recycling it, there is no reason not to.
  • - 5
flag Benito-Camelas (Nov 24, 2017 at 6:47) (Below Threshold)
 Concentracions of CO2 in the atmosphere hit a new record last year. Temperatures will rise by as much as 6º by the end of this century. Pole's facilities will be at least 2m underwater. Leo Kokkonen and his family will be climate refugees pedaling their nice CNC machined bikes to higher ground.
why worry? Only a lucky few will be able to pay the space flight to Alpha Centauri in a couple of centuries, where a brand new Earth is waiting to be f*cked up again. Even God can't save us. So relax and enjoy this moment. Pollute as much as you can. f*ck the future.
  • + 1
 @font style="vertical-align: inherit;">font style="vertical-align: inherit;">JoeRSB /font>/font>:
Aluminum is not much better ... www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/dongria
  • + 6
 @polebicycles: you ignored how ebikes are not produced in a environmentally friendly way.. it's cool to care about the environment but the most environmentally friendly thing to do is to keep riding the 10 year old bike not buying a new one. If your in the business of selling stuff people don't need it comes across as bs self righteous marking.
  • + 4
 I still cant get over a for real 7075 aluminum bike. This is light years ahead of carbon!
  • + 2
 @JoeRSB: Their shavings will be reused because recycling companies will pay Pole for their scrap metal. It’s got a pretty good market value, unlike used epoxy and fabric.
  • + 2
 @JoeRSB: most machine shops have deals with local metal recyclers. the scrap is cash money, a business would be crazy to just dispose of it to landfill.
  • + 2
 @core559: have you looked into where/ how lithium is mined, processed? there are some new players coming online soon like XMG (MGX minerals) but most of todays Li comes from massive open pit mines.
  • + 1
 @choppertank3e: aluminum has been recycled for decades, its quite likely the majority of your aluminum stuff in your life is made of mostly recycled scrap aluminum.
  • + 1
 @Benito-Camelas: there is no God
  • + 1
 @raytheotter: agreed, that is a lot of billet and a lot tool consumption. I wouldn't be surprised if the 3 phase power source running the CNC and cool blaster unit being energized from Poland's coal fired plants result in offsets that are similar to the carbon frame. It's like when someone tells me there all green and shit and want to own a Tesla.
  • + 6
 @BoneDog: Pole Bicycles is from Finland. Pole is Finnish dialect and it means pedal.

Here's a map where you can see how countries produce their electricity:
www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=map

PS. "It's like when someone tells me there all green and shit and want to own a Tesla." No. It's not like that even when you live in Poland.
  • + 1
 @JoeRSB: haha, these bike companies say whatever they want when they want. Dont expect them to remember yesterdays BS.

" The Pole is probably the fastest bike on the planet..."
"The frame is not prone to scratches and wear"

Best bit was when they admitted their lack of understanding of carbon lay up meant they couldn´t accurately determine where they could achieve stiffness. So the new manufacturing technique is a solution to their problems - not a step forward as such.



I have no problem with any company spouting BS, they all do it. Just dont expect me to believe the spin about this being better, faster, stronger, lighter and done for my benefit. Dont insult riders (and potential customers) intelligence.
  • + 4
 @pedrocaio182: Comparing milling aluminum (whether efficient CNC or conventional manual) to labor-intensive carbon manufacturing isn't just a comparison of night and day, it's like night and moonbeam supersex stardust laserbeams.
  • - 10
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 24, 2017 at 10:34) (Below Threshold)
 @frojoe: is labor environmentally heavy? You mean they fart a lot while using puppy blood impregnated nuclear fibers? Yea methane is terrible. So the block of 7075 is a transformed unicorns sperm, while tooling, machine is it run by vegan gnomes? I bet they do crossfit to stay fit to work so much.
  • + 8
 @WAKIdesigns: Is something wrong with you? All your comments are really aggressive.

Building the frame in Finland out of aluminium is probably one of the best ways to build a bicycle (for a Company based in Finnland).
  • + 0
 @blackforest: where did I write I don't like the bike? I do love the bike and the way it's made, I have a sweet tooth for raw metal finish. I'm done here, I've said way too much while message should have been:

your article with Pinkbike about why not carbon made me angry, Pinbkbikes poll made me even angrier, it distorted reality of bicycle manufacture on the whole, made dumb people even dumber, and it is them doing most damage, your marketing may suck, maybe lots of stuff got misinterpreted as it happens in online shitstorms, but I still love your bikes and wouldn't mind to own one. I wish to congratulate you on a truly unique and spectacular bike.
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: I think I get what you're saying. If we really want to be green, well and truly, we shouldn't have bikes at all, let alone for mountain biking. Our clothing should be from dead animals and our food should come from the ground. We're all hypocrites to one degree or another when it comes to being green. Let's all ride the bikes we like and have fun.
  • + 3
 @Jimmybikes: I once had a pet Panda named Peaty (guess where I got the name from). Turns out I was feeding it the wrong kind of bamboo and in the end it died. Digging a hole for for one down the bottom of the garden is a total nightmare and a lot more difficult the neighbours cat that I accidently ran over. But anyway, my point was, when I was trying to feed it the bamboo (that in hindsight it didnt like), it bit me. I was so enraged, I kicked him in the balls, poor bugger cried like a baby for 25 minutes...I'm gonna miss Peaty.
  • + 1
 @JoeRSB: Any machine shop that does not recycle their materials is losing serious dollars. One of my closest friends owns a large shop and his recycling income pays about $1K per week.
  • + 1
 @Gregorysmithj1: Haha no shit eh!
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I always head out into the wind, rain and hilly terrain with smile on my face on a regular bike!
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I handle my guilt well as well, on full carbon and full bling factor components... There's far far greater issues in the world than recyclability! Although I do my part with our recycling bins at home and in the work place I completely realize that iam in fact a big part of the problem as 99.99% of us are being the consumers that we are!
  • + 1
 @Keit: hahah agreed! And if he does ride it is a the very minimal end of the scale!
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I remember when u used to shit on 29ers dude!
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: if you have such a specific stick stuck up your butt why dont you write your own opinion piece and see if pinkbike would pick it up. that stick seems like its stuck up there real good.
  • + 1
 @raytheotter: Even more exclusive, driven by the sexdrive of a panda.
  • + 6
 @Losvar: Uh, NO. In a perfect world......

I was just quoted $11.49/lb for some 7075 rectangular material with certs (for traceability, defense industry work). Which is way, way, way too much, obviously, the supplier thinks it is up to me to send his kid to Stanford, plus a vacation in Tahiti for him, but that's a whole 'nother can of beans. Anyway, I'm thinking I can get it for $6/lb somewhere else. Now, I'm not going to get the amount of chips out of my parts that the Pole boys are getting, and my eyeball estimate is that the blank piece they started with is about 3 inches X 24 X 24, which is about 174lbs, I'm guessing that they generate about 150 lbs of chips roughing it out, then a bit more each successive operation, and I'm not sure about how much the finished frame will weigh, but they won't get every ounce of chip weight out of the scrap. So maybe 155 lbs of chips. Maybe. We have a guy that drops a bin and picks it up when full. About 6 X 6 X 6. We used to do alright on the scrap, paid for barbeques for the crew and whatnot, we'd get $2000, $2200 for a full bin. Gradually went down, down, down. The recycle middlemen seems to have all become dirtbags, the last time, they tried to bill us, "the chips were oily". No different from the previous 20 times they got them. Anyway, it seems like they want to pay about $.60 cents per pound now, almost not worth the effort. The recycling isn't the cash cow it used to be.

I think some of you guys have got a different idea about things here than I do. I went to CNC, not to reduce my footprint, not to put anyone out of work, not to get away from dirtier processes (but it actually did clean things up), but to tighten up the tolerances, to get more control over the processes. And......TO MAKE MONEY.

If Pole makes a good product, at a competitive price, they really don't need to blow smoke up anyone's butt about saving the earth.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Carbon is taking over the world and bikes are but a miniscule segment. Obviously automotive main stream is the next big thing. It isn't just cesar that is playing with recycling Carbon. But toray and many other research facilities that are too. It is only a matter of time. How much energy goes into recycling aluminium? And machining it in the first place. How long does aluminium last compared to carbon frames?
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: I feel like new zealand wouldn't want you.
  • + 4
 Guys, chill...
  • + 3
 @core559: Great post, Carbon fibre is really not as essential for your average mountain biker. The performance benefits are negligible even to the top guys. Many top riders ride aluminium, eg Dan Wolfe a World Enduro rider is easily faster than most on here and rides an aluminium Transition patrol i when he could ride a carbon model. Most riders should probably stop thinking as carbon as the only material for bikes, my next bike probably will be aluminium and I feel way better about it as a material environmentally.
  • + 2
 @core559: well look at where lithium is sourced, shipped to, and then shipped again...and then-
  • + 1
 @Trailstunter: is the pricing on website?
Must have missed it..usd$ frame?
  • + 2
 @Gregorysmithj1: I would say Carbon frames last about 1/2 to 1/4 the lifespan of Alu frames.
  • + 0
 @polebicycles: "I teach my son to design, not to work in a factory." Well lucky you ! What if he decides to work in a factory and buy a carbon frame ? Don't be too snob with your "perfect" country; There is nothing wrong about working in a factory Wink it takes a whole lot of people to make a world !
  • - 2
 @polebicycles: glad to know that working with your hands is valueless in Finland. Probably why the suicide rate is so high.
  • + 10
 Some really shitty comments here aimed at a guy who's trying to improve the industry you're all supposed to love. Nice to see pinkbike never changes.
  • + 1
 @raytheotter: i just have an issue with someone bragging about how they value robots over human employment. As someone whos worked with their hands and head for 30 years , it pissed me off a bit. I realize the future is upon us. I also realize not everyone can be a knob at a computer and alot of people are going to find a life without purpose, which frankly is alot scarier than lack of carbon bike frame recycling.
  • + 4
 @scary1: so you respond by slagging off his whole country? Mate, if you disagree, disagree. Finland isn't the US. Their population is lower. Streamlining a work force may make sense there for all you (or I) know. But start throwing stones just because you disagree with his ideas.
  • + 4
 @polebicycles: sorry i gave ya crap, reading these comments it's kinda insane we are complaining. This fame looks rad the super slack stuff is cool. You guys are the real industry leaders pushing the big guys to make better mass produced frames! Ps i am waiting for someone to make a race ready 100-110mm xc bike with a 65 ha..
  • + 2
 @ronan: All very true statements.. But for me it is an aesthetic advantage... I just love the seamlessness of a monocoque carbon frame with no joints that is super stiff to boot.. Yes ride characteristics are negligible but still noticeable. If my wallet allows, I'll always choose the plastic.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: did I strike a nerve again. We have a saying in most countries, and you are just full of it.
  • + 1
 @Gregorysmithj1: I would add, you need to look at the sort of people who buy carbon and aluminium frames and how likely they are to replace them before they break. Its all about consumerism trends and disposable income. Hard to tell how long an average e-bike life span is yet.
  • + 1
 @BorisRoberts: hear hear!
  • - 3
 @WAKIdesigns: awesome reply, same things I was thinking about Pole and their carbon project
  • + 3
 Why so much hate for a company that tries to do something a bit differently than you are used to? And which seems to have put some thought behind what they are doing, contrary to all the rest? You may agree with them or not, but why so much hate? The ideology behind pretty much all other brands is to get as much of your money as possible, and no one hates that approach as much as Pole's... Weird.
  • + 1
 @djm35: This is true.. I'm a carbon consumer myself.. By a new frame every 2 to 3 seasons and build her up.. Sell the old clunker on here and recoup some of the money... It works out rather well.. Plus new bike day is always a good time.
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: The irony of you complaining about someone having an opinion about you, after you have slagged off Pole and called their outlook 'bullshit' is hilarious.

Only happy when being praised and given loads of props it seems.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Nov 25, 2017 at 9:42) (Below Threshold)
 @mgolder: what?
  • + 4
 @scary1: Having been working with my hands for the past 36 years in machine shops, starting with sweeping the floors and cutting stock in a tractor repair shop, fixing those tractors, welding up shafts, short run, long run, getting onto a couple of auto race teams (including a World Championship Team), a motorcycle race team, aerospace parts, defense department (the Defense Department Complex, damn, I sold out!), people don't realize it but, working with your hands is a really good, honest gig. And for some reason, people are discouraged from entering it. I can go into a shop, black T-shirt, blue jeans, show up on a Harley, or a Sportbike, or a bent up girl's 20 inch bicycle (because it seems like a pretty good percentage of us don't seems to have a driver's license), hell, even if they aren't hiring ("We aren't hiring, what do you do? Machinist? Hold on, let me get the foreman.....", that’s happened more than a couple times), they’ll give you a shot. Most of the time, they won't drug test you (they SAY they will, but they'd lose most of the crew), they'll do a background check, but unless you've got a child molestation conviction or bestiality, they don't care. Felons are well represented.

I can see your point exactly. People seem to look down on the manufacturing........arts. Younger people are not coming into the trades like they used to, and there is going to be a shortage of skilled craftsmen in the coming years. I've gone from pushing a broom, to making ANYTHING on a manual machine, to welding, to 3-axis CNC, 5-axis CNC, tool and die maker, etc. It takes 15 minutes to find a well paying job, and there aren’t too many jobs that can make a claim like that. Who builds the fixtures for those set-ups for the frame? They gotta be right, the finished product depends on it, the machine isn't going to build the fixtures itself.

And Pole mentioned getting their parts offshore (Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, etc.). Sorry, but I don't go there, too many variables, from material substitutions, to business scruples, to sub-standard human rights for workers. Yeah, it's hard to compete with $8/day for labor vs $300+ with benefits for an American Journeyman, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
  • + 0
 @BorisRoberts: one can build a bike from parts manufactured almost entirely in Europe. Each single part. Frame - plenty, wheels - DT, Hope, tyres, tubes: Contiental, drivetrain Hope/pinion, suspension: BOS (you'll curse yourself for that one though), brakes: Hope, Magura (mineral oil mmmm), controls - plenty of options, Some of them are made from materials extracted and forged in Europe. Like DT Swiss spokes are made of Swedish steel. If you try hard enough you can source Swedish tubing but they are often not butted. So you give up performance for a good story. Some of aluminium comes from bauxites taken out of "European" ground too, but wherever they start digging they get protests from environmentalists because of pollution such extraction and processing generates. Then you can have composites made of hemp fiber and biodegradable resins. As to artisan frames made of possibly friendliest material steel, there are some beauties that work really well. And i mean FS frames. Like BTR or Swarf. But it is very hard to run away from: pollution and energy spent during mining of materials, processing into alloys, forming tubing, welding, transporting everything, both in terms of burned fossil fuels and packaging. It is extremely hard to tell how all parties involved in these steps are following any sort of environmental protocols. Then alu can be kind of repaired (although I know a dude who salvages frames, even Cayons!!!) steel can be repaired for the most part and CF can be totally repairedm sometimes in a way you may not even notice it was broken. Then you have bamboo bikes...
  • + 1
 @jdtheconfessor1: I guess there had to be one crybaby panda. I stand corrected lol
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: i think i understand your agenda - is it because antidote makes carbon frames that you feel you need to defend them and their peers by attacking anti carbon lobbyists?
  • - 3
 @russthedog: no, my Antidote connection has nothing to do with it. Neither my fanboism for companies like Unno, POC, Specialized, and a couple more.
  • + 3
 @polebicycles: The Specialized study was extremely detailed. When it came to environmental footprint they indeed did not find any definitive advantage of carbon vs aluminum or vice-versa. When it comes to an advantage as frame material carbon is the clear winner. But besides what is actually said in the study the embarrassing thing is that the guys at Pole bycicles were not even aware of it. Their take in the PInkbike article was pretty much that everybody else in the industry were polluting the earth. It was one of the most brazen and groundless marketing I have seen in a while.

Now, unfortunately, they double up claiming to produce an aluminum frame that somehow is "lighter, stronger and faster. Honestly!" One would think it is a joke, but instead they are serious. They do not report any data, not even a frame weight ... truly embarrassing, especially considering that there are literally dozens other manufacturers building aluminum frames ...
  • + 3
 @vanmtnbiker: you are joking right? Aluminum has a very definite fatigue life that is significantly shorter than carbon.
  • + 2
 @core559: Ive been waiting for this to happen for a while. I imagine some one off frames have been built before and displayed at interbike, but a billet aluminum frame is just sick! In the auto industry billet aluminum has been around for days. I figured is people are shelling out 10k for bikes made of carbon, then there is a market. I for one am all for it!
  • + 1
 @salespunk: remember that there are carbon bikes and there are carbon bike. Just like there is aluminium and alumnium. I would not put equality sign between Canyon and Santa Cruz and definitely not Unno. Same for alu. Or steel. Some frames are simply more durable than others and will last longer so fatigue life is semi-relevant here. Then we can talk about capacity for repair vs willingness of repair. In terms of a decent carbon frame, both look very well. Only a dozen of lunatics will attempt repairing ANY aluminium frame since it often requires welding in bridges to regain structural integrity. You beloved baby will look like a Battleship Patiomkin. Nobody will try to repair a carbon canyon. But a broken S-Works can have a chance since it is so expensive and repair may possibly leave no traces. Carbon frames can be repaired getting back full strength. If Pole's frame breaks, it's done. You can't weld it. But then it is quite possibly rather strong. Then steel got completely lost in translation. I could easily consider buying a BTR Pinner when it costs less than most quality carbon frames and the only downside seems to be the weight. Most properties of carbon fiber frames are marketing bollocks. It comes down to catchy terms like: low weight and weight to stiffness ratio, with increase of stiffness as benefit being complete lie outside of XC racing. I value my Antidote for geometry and suspension not the material it is made of.

What I am trying to say here. It is all complicated and relative, but the common theme is: WANT TO BE A GOOD GUY - INVEST IN A QUALITY PRODUCT. POSSIBLY MADE NEAR YOU.
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: that last comment is pretty spot on

@duzzi: why do you think carbon is the clear winner? and weight is not the be all and end all. There are lots of articles around on both subjects relating to bikes.

The right geo/stiffness/ flex and balance with suspension are key.

I dont see how lighter, faster, stronger is a joke? Isnt that what all manufacturers claim of their new bike? Isnt that the point of progress?
  • + 1
 @raytheotter: have you ever seen the toxic footprint of aluminium production? Not even mentioning energys co2 emissions
  • + 1
 @raytheotter: the volume of landfill consumed by discarded carbon bikes is less of a concern than greenhouse gasses and nonsequestered byproducts.

I think it is naive or deceitful to claim these as eco friendly bikes. The amount of energy needed to make aluminum is harmful to the environment. Machining from billets makes this significantly worse. While geo or hydro sourced energy seems to solve that issue to a casual observer, it actually doesn’t. It’s the same problem posed by ethanol fuel in America. Yeah, it is theoretically better than burning petroleum products. But in the real world it displaces food crops to South America. So the Amazon is being deforested to grow food because american famers are using their land to grow corn for ethanol.

It’s the same for clean energy used to make aluminum. Building a bike with a massively energy inefficient method is not eco friendly. It simply displaces other consumers to aluminum suppliers without clean energy.

Clean energy is good! Using it up for innefiencent production cannot be called clean though.

With that said. I don’t base my buying criteria on that and would have no problem buying this bike. Rather, just calling attention to the fact that this bike isn’t less polluting than carbon.
  • + 5
 @dfiler: Have to agree and I think Pole needs to address the"Elephant in the Room"

So in just a few months, the carbon frame was dumped due to environmental concerns and the technology not only to develop, but also manufacture this frame (even if just prototype) was developed.

I LOVE the work put into the development of this bike and it merits accolades, but the apparent marketing ploy to promote this bike is a bit questionable.
  • + 2
 @duzzi: We don't give the accurate weight yet because we still have some iteration cycles left. We are on presale and it looks like there are many people around the world who seem to trust us Smile

Carbon frame is a clear winner if we look at the standard fatigue tests with standard frames. We use 7075 T6 aluminium and we can make internal shapes as well. Nobody seems to test the impacts for carbon. Please don't link me the Pinkbike story where they beat the SC carbon frame to the corner. That's not a proper test what happens when you crash with the bike. Whn you crash on a bike there's more mass and speed behind the blow than just 1,2kg of carbon frame and a swing with arms. Put 15kg to the head tube and make the same test with the carbon frame. Also you could get a knife and stab your carbon frame with it. I can show any time how the Machine handle the stabbing. Also I could give the carbon frame a hammer test and same test to our Machine.

Can anyone answere me this question: If carbon is so superior material on fatigue and strength, why does most of the companies make the chainstays from aluminium? The used to make them from carbon. My answer is that bikes are more complex than most engineers think. Wink
  • + 3
 Part of the problem with composite frames is the average consumer thinks they understand the process of producing a carbon frame, and trust that because their bike costs more, it's a far superior product. Not to mention, what if I told you a large part of your frame was actually fiberglass... Fiber glass and Carbon have an almost identical strength, and comparable modulus. and it's only a fraction of the cost, the consumer can't tell the difference.

There has been talk by the likes of Dave Weagle about "tuning" carbon fiber to flex in a specific direction more than another direction. While this is entirely possible, it is rarely done in the bike industry. Carbon is largely treated as a standard isotropic engineering material, just like aluminum or steel. Then after the engineer designs the 3D cad model of the frame, the factory is left to design the lay up schedule. Which usually consists of adding 0/90 and +/-45 woven prepreg until strength requirements are met.

@polebicycles Yes, and it's cost. Carbon, if engineered correctly by someone that actually understands what they're doing, is always a far superior product. For such a complex composite part, the cost of an aluminum chain stay can be as little as 1/3-1/4 the cost of the carbon equivalent. But you already know this...

I 100% approve of what you're doing by pushing alloy frames in an industry that doesn't need the additional environmental impact, but don't act like carbon isn't an amazing material. It IS the future (in other industries), and you can't deny that.
  • + 3
 @polebicycles: I don't think people quite understand what 7075 aluminum is. It's what Shimano/Sram/Raceface chainrings/cassettes are made out of. It's what Industry 9 hubs/spokes are made out of. It's what Deity handlebars/stems are made out of. It is incredibly durable, being almost twice as strong as "normal" aluminum meaning you could potentially cut the frame weight in HALF and keep the same stiffness.

The downside is that it can't be welded... hence the CNC machine. It will look extremely clean with no weld marks, and you could potentially make a couple of new bikes from the shavings. The fact that you even pulled this off into a functional bicycle is absolutely amazing.
  • + 1
 www.makeitfrom.com/compare/6061-T6-Aluminum/7075-T6-Aluminum

7075 T6 is 1,8 times harder than conventional 6061 T6 aluminium. In other words.ALMOST twice as hard. The next level is when we combine the 7075 T6 with internal ribs and wall thickness changes plus the new geometry and suspension layout.

I really think that if someone thinks that the carbon is way to go, they should go for it. We are just happy if people ride mountain bikes. In the end we like when we see more bikes rather than cut forests for electric golf carts.
  • + 1
 @dfiler: that analogy makes no sense. Hydro is not the same as ethanol. You are correct that being efficient is always important but if you have a surplus of energy it doesnt displace anyone and it doesnt really matter
  • + 1
 @polebicycles: Curious why you're talking about hardness, and not the more important mechanical properties like Kic, tensile strength, and modulus.
  • + 4
 @core559: I'm not native English so excuse my language. Anyway: tensile strength is 1,8 bigger in 7075 T6 compared to 6061 T6
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: Perfect, thank you!!

And for those that don't understand why tensile (pulling) strength is relevant, an isotropic material has identical properties in both compression and tension, assuming buckling does not occur. so a 1" diameter aluminum rod that is twice as strong in tension, is also twice as strong in compression. It's the easiest way engineers can quantify the general yield strength of a material in a way that is not geometry dependent.
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: this epic thread is great for A) us because there's some great info/counterinfo about so much but especially B) Pole because nobody's going to forget who you are now... The green side of things is a bit of a red herring, as this a tiny company and any difference in its environmental footprint for good or bad is going to make so little difference. I see no reason to distrust them regarding their good intentions (and the execution of the latter) and it's also possible to dig what they're doing from a tech perspective. Plus this is the second fastest bike ever so what's not to like. We just need an objective review now.
  • + 3
 @core559: average consumer knows nothing about anything, you people need to stop talking in general terms. Carbon frame from ali express has nothing to do with carbon frame from Santa Cruz. And if you keep generalizing I can say that I won’t buy this Pole frame because I’ve seen a cracked Canyon which is also made of aluminium.

@polebicycles - you are not in position to ask a question why aren’t chainstays of so many frames made of carbon.

Next week I will post an interview I did with Cesar Rojo, you can all learn something. And after all I can easily pull out a card that all these super bikes are overdeveloped since Aaron Gwin can win on Canyon and Phil Atwill can ride DH course on a DJ hardtail faster than me and Leo on his longest bike. So chill out because there is no hiding that this bike like many other are MTB equivalents of Prada bags with diamonds. Let’s assume Pole has the BEST geo and the BEST structure, does it have the best suspension system? How much do you test your frames with various shocks? Do you custom tune them yourselves, or just order something something firm side from Fox? Antidote works closely with Andreani Group workshop/Öhlins distributor that aside of moto and automotive prepares stuff for Dakar. Unno works with the state of art testing equipment. They work with moto GP and F1. Where’s Pole’s environment? Best best best? Most Advanced? Dunning Kruger Effect?

Tone it down damn it. BTR doesn’t shove “Bests” in peoples mouths... whatever enjoy your disease of betterness. Haven’t experienced such arrogance from an industry person since I met JC from Sram. It’s like watching Dragons den. BTW a man named Max said there’s a decent aerospace company in Finland working with high end composites, that was eager to help him with his carbon bike project
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Your bullshit detector is set too low, you have to allow for a bit, he's not a marketeer, he's a bike geek, maybe floating on over-exuberant passion about his baby... The bike is pretty cool.
"Don't think, it complicates things. Just feel, and if it feels like home then follow its path." R.M. Drake.
You're way overdue for those psychedelics you're homing in on.
  • + 1
 you sure you don't prefer Head?
  • + 1
 @BenPea: but, i think his "arrogance detector " is spot on.
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns:

i think that the suspension is the whole bike all together. Suspension is not a separate thing from the frame stiffness or the geometry. For dampers, we work with SRAM's and Fox's engineers. For us it's all about performance and the timed runs are the key to the performance. I've tried to push the media to make more those speed tests that Enduromag made one month ago. We test our bikes against the others as well because our philosophy is all about performance. At the moment our benchmark is the EVOLINK 140. When we beat that, we have the world's fastest bike.

About the F1 - For example: Tommi Mäkinen builds the world champion WRC cars for Toyota Gazoo racing just ten kilometers from our office. Would you stop the rant if I told that I've been working for them? I don't think so because it's a different sport from mountain bikes although it's more closer than F1.

"Max said there’s a decent aerospace company in Finland" I know there are companies in Finland. I've visited them when I was still interested in carbon. There is two companies are just one hour ride from our office. There's also a company that produces wood fiber 100m from our office.

I think it's all said here. Too much name dropping Big Grin

I'll continue my work now. Peace!
  • + 7
 @scary1: if Waki was fitted with an arrogance detector he'd fking implode...
  • + 3
 Geez, guys, why no one starts a flame war when a company that makes carbon bikes tries to persuade everyone that they are better, even if they are totally overpriced? No one complains about that and no one questions that. People are not comfortable with breaking the status quo, I think.

@WAKIdesigns: Oh please, Aaron rides a YT. Canyon, pffft - what a blasphemy!
  • + 1
 @BenPea: haha lol. You got me,there
  • + 0
 www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRj34o4hN4I

Anyone still worrying about the environmental impact of high end bicycle production? E-bikes? These guys won't even need atmosphere...
  • + 4
 @polebicycles: Your concept is really nice. This discussion of environment is stupid. For me the main problem resides in the amount of new parts that come up every year. Most of these new parts and frames and so on don't bring anything new or relevant, it's just pure business. If people really want to care about environment they should keep their bikes more years and wear the parts until they really need to replace them. I see people changing bikes every year. For them the new bike is "so much better than the previous" LOL....I see people that don't even do the first service of their forks or shocks, they sell them and buy new ones because they don't perform well anymore to their likes. My last bike lasted me for 5 years until i decided to move to the 650b. During that period there were people that had at least 4 or 5 new bikes, sometimes complete builds. This mass consumption is the problem to the environment, not carbon or aluminium or steel or whatever....I think it's the TREND that's killing environment, not the materials.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: hey waki check out the marketing claims on the production privee review page. If youre legit youll go and lose your nana there as well.
  • + 0
 One more thing. Here's story where Trek's and Specialized's and other managers are also interviewed.

www.outsideonline.com/2261721/dirty-secret-hiding-your-high-end-mountain-bike
  • - 1
 @polebicycles: the only product you are making is a frame. So for you it is a huge factor. For the planet it isn’t. Even in the scale of bicycle industry, even in the scale of mountain bikes. The product that lasts long is a sustainable product. That’s what the word means. If the only noble choice is to go for a sustainable product then according to this logic buying anything below Shimano XT level is immoral. Shimano Alivio is not durable at all, even an enthusiast who rides once a week will kill it in a matter of a year while XT/ XTR parts last for many years. Nearly every single of these items end up in a land fill or incinerator and are not recycled. Low end components stand for vast majority of mtb parts sold. Almost each single one of them comes in big boxes and with big instructions to satisfy legal system so that company doesn’t get sued. At least 50% of weight and 70% of the volume of each bike part is packaging. In selected countries this packaging gets recycled, in many, it ends up in a landfill.

That’s about the problem of recycling of CF products vs 99.999999999% of remaining bike stuff that doesn’t even get downcycled. And of all bike things made from carbon fibre you attack the only thing that makes sense to use this material for: the frame. While there are idiotic applications like rims, crank arms, headset spacers, brake levers, handlebars, stems, seatposts, cassette spiders, brake rotors, FSR like chainstays and what not. I am surprised nobody made carbon derailleur hangers yet.

Out of all things if there is a sensible use of carboon fibre composites in cycling, it is the front triangle of a frame.
  • + 0
 @russthedog: well Mike Levy satisfied my troll tooth by saying that every bicycle is a compromise.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: This has basically nothing to do with our operations and the story but the factory what was on our sights said that their carbon fiber is coming from Japan. I think that these scandals very seldom restrict to only on one company. If one lies, the other needs to lie as well to survive the competition.

www.reuters.com/article/us-toray-scandal/japan-inc-scandals-widen-as-toray-admits-cheating-idUSKBN1DS05A
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Hi Waki, true about the small bits like derailleur and others (in fact it should be forbidden to manufacture some crap I see on some bikes), not true about frames. People are swapping frames too fast. And carbon just made this happen faster. Things that don't break must last longer, we have to decrease the speed of buying new things just to show off, because in the end that's just what it is. Another aspect of carbon, in my opinion, is that some brands lost their soul, they just became another carbon frame with a decal on. We have the example of Intense, they are just another bike brand now. I am sure Foes are getting some of their old customers :-D
  • - 1
 @polebicycles: I know it has absolutely nothing to do with your enterprise just like I said it myself at the top of my previous post. But it is not just about you. You guys started a bike internet wide shitstorm polarizing the topic of whole bicycle production, making many people belive that as long as they buy something made of aluminium they are making an environmentally sound decision. And that is not true at all. Way too few disclaimers oth from Pinkbike and from you. And this is why I am angry in the first place.

@migkab: I am affraid you are just projecting your own values mixed with unviersal values (like it is naughty to show off) on the whole thing now. Yes many people buy high end bicycles and sell them afterwards quickly, and carbon bikes are undoubtedly the hallmark of highend-ness - which off course is more often misguided than not. But out of many people I know I could pick max 3 snobs, most of owners of CF bikes just like nice things. Anyways, those snobbish bikes don't end up in a land fill as soon as the owner gets bored of them. They get sold. Someone buys them and rides them, sells them and them someone else buys them (some call themselves environmentalists by doing this), and this cycle is much more likely to go on for longer than in case of aluminium frame because of fatigue life. If we generalize it this way, which is stupid since a frame from one maker can differ a lot from a frame from another one. Regardless of material. But by average, carbon version of a particular frame will outlive it's aluminium brother. And the idea that aluminium frames get recycled after they crack, is a truly naive one. even in Scandinavia a lot of alloys end up in incinerators and in a dump.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: "even in Scandinavia a lot of alloys end up in incinerators and in a dump." That's a lie or a very subjective view of things. For example I just checked our local waste management center (Mustankorkea Oy, Jyväskylä, Finland) and they say that 94% of the waste is being reused, recycled or used as energy. Translate the last point from that page: mustankorkea.fi/2017/11/totta-vai-tarua-kahdeksan-vaitetta-joista-osa-on-ihan-taytta-roskaa

Metal is worth money. I've been also working for a company that produces waste management systems and equipement and I know that the waste managers are keen on metal because you get good money from it. Waste is money and the waste management is a business. It would be stupid to put metals to landfill because it takes at least double the energy to make the metals from ore. It's much easier to screen the metals off the general waste. Bicycles are huge compared to tin cans. It's insane to claim that bicycles are not being recycled in a modern country.

Here's an example how the waste is managed in USA 2010 www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjNv_iTsXn8

"and this cycle is much more likely to go on for longer than in case of aluminium frame because of fatigue life" Source please. This is your subjective view. I've seen many carbon frames snap crack an pop because of many different reasons. Last time I saw a carbon frame fail was when my friend collapsed on top of his bike. Top tube has a soft spot now. I've seen many carbon chainstays to break. There are many cases that doesn't even go to the fatigue life end on carbon frames. Nobody knows the fact of the frame lifespan if you can't find a research that has at least some sort of data collected.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns:
In my opinion it would be passible to make durable frame, even by weldable aluminum alloys, which would survive even over 20 years without any problems.
Especially when you can use T6 treatment after welding and technologies like hydroforming to put welds in not responsible places.
Shoe on the downhill frame are not designe to be durable but to look nice.
They have wrong shapes of profiles, or even shape of profiles path.
Đây là sự phân cách tuyệt đối siêu hợp nhất:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/6146136
Some companies know how to make durable frames, but they will do one to weak point to make it crack after waranty.
For example I had 3 DEMO in my life, all 3 craced in chain stay becuse Specialized made a point to make it crack after 2 year of riding.
On these frames I had many crashes like this:
www.pinkbike.com/video/235982
I can not say how many times my frame hit the tree.
But after 2 years of riding in the chainstey was broken.
That becaus there is a wrong designet to get crack not because fatigue of aluminum is too low.
Everyone who has even a small knowledge in construction calculates the construction of this super stupid, and wrong shape:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/14796223
Even the roof skeleton of a hundred-year-old bus station is better.

Costs of produce of aluminum frame are much lower.
Also CO2 and most of metal trash are much safer for enviroment than polymer matrix composites.

Another problem with CFK is super low resistance for impact.
Small inpact can start delamination proces which can be dangerus.
  • + 1
 @JoeRSB: all good with the glue, the horses' careers were already over mate haha
  • + 2
 Finally on site. Anyone interested can check out what carbon bike producer has to say about this in a classy manner:

downhill24.bike/catching-up-with-cesar-rojo
  • + 53
 Just posted a "do anything" for cash ad in the Craigslist personals....
  • + 28
 Interested,.plz post link.
  • + 2
 Ha Ha Ha... "Anything for cash" you say? Goatboy will answer your advert shortly..
  • + 4
 I have a similar problem. How to explain to my wife that spending money on this machine would be good for our marriage and for our family?
  • + 8
 @pakleni: I have a bit of the opposite problem: my wife thinks the bike looks mint and is OK with me getting one, as long as I get one for her as well!
  • + 6
 @santoman: I think our wives should become friends. Best frends forever if possible.
And as soon as possible!
  • + 2
 @pakleni: If you throw two Pole frames into the deal we might be able to work something out!
  • + 2
 @santoman: 2? Presumably for our wives. And how could I benefit from this friendship?
  • + 5
 @pakleni: happy wife=happy life!
  • + 7
 @santoman
@pakleni

Your wives and 2 poles, sounds like a good recipe for happiness.
  • + 1
 @Uuno: chapeau, we asked for it...ah, yeah...f*ck you!
  • + 3
 @santoman: Your suisse. It's no problem to buy such a cheap frame, you could pimp it up with really expensive parts to gain some credibility in the suisse bike scene. Wink
  • + 1
 @blackforest: we are poor over here, but we have style!
  • + 1
 @blackforest: Ok. When somebody is right, he is right. Big Grin
Sometimes on a group rides I feel like I have to apologise because I don't ride a pair of carbon wheels.
  • + 0
 @blackforest: I can't wait to have my custom made Rolex drive train and diamond prawl hubs mounted to this value priced frame. Should arrive at the same time as my baby seal skin minions. Seal skin is soooo much more grippy than super tacky or that 3C crap you peasants ride on.
  • + 46
 WOW!!!! This has got to be finest looking aluminium frame work ever created (although some reservations on frame shape) The headtube-toptube-downtube section is pure PORN seriously. Congratulations to guys at Pole cycles. They just reinvented wheel with aluminium frame market and I mean in the most positive way. RIP carbon framesets.
  • + 3
 This is art
  • + 47
 Three water bottle mounts? I'm sold!
  • + 14
 Me too!! Sooo enduro!!
  • + 2
 you can never have enough bottle mounts. Pivot should learn from this
  • + 3
 @goflowz: Agreed. And Yeti too.
  • + 10
 Had me at 2...
  • + 8
 whatever. put a keg mount inside the frame and we'll talk
  • + 1
 @goflowz: Many pivots (like the Switchblade and Mach 6) have 2 mounts.
  • + 0
 My Pyga Stage Max gets two 1 Litre bottles inside the main triangle.
I know Poles are long (hurrhurr) but it only looks like space for two 600ml bottles on the top of the down tube.

Bike companies keep putting bottles underneath the down tube, but it's literally the worst place to have a bottle.
  • + 38
 hey @polebicycles , if you really care about your environmental footprint as a company, think twice about producing an ebike. makes me feel all that carbon bashing was a marketing pre-hype for that thing here.
  • + 14
 I'm not really in favour of e-bikes for off-road stuff for various reasons, but environmental footprint of an e-bike is a lot smaller than say shuttling in a vehicle or taking a chairlift... or driving to work.
  • + 1
 @Socket: yes, but no one rides their ebike, say, 30 miles to get to the trail head or resort.
  • + 12
 Can you give reasons why ebike is not an environmental choise (because mining of Lithium maybe)? We know that Tibet is a big source of lithium and China is not very nice there so that is an ethical question to think of but we will have ecars, laptops, drones and mobile phones anyway so why ebike is not a good choise?

Our ebike will be designed mainly to replace the need for the uplift. Most of the motor manufacturers have designed the motors for everyone. Our motor will be designed to a group that want to ride mainly downhills but lack the time to train that much (fe. moms and dads who shred). This makes it possible to access different trails.

When I go shuttling in fe. Italy or Spain it always makes me think that if we had ebikes we could do almost the same amount of vertical by just one uplift and then work ourselves down from the mountain by choosing the trails differently and making some climbs between the downhill trails. -Leo
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: since you can make tons of arguments why not to eat meat or make carbon frames I bet you could also make tons of arguments why moms and dads who ehm... shred... should not ride e-bikes. I am involved with a website coaching people to ride their bikes and I would not recommend half of those people to ride downhill until they polish their technique in a safe environment and get stronger physically. We work hard on showing people that there are no shortcuts and taking the time to train and practice is always an extremely satisfying journey. Therefore I would not recommend ANY unfit person to ride downhill or any sort of technical terrain to not get them seriously injured and maybe deter them away from MTB. Also what sort of example does it give to others? They are just pedaling up the hill, why should I try so hard? The idea that e-bike is almost as clean as non-e-bike is quite ridiculous. Cleaner than shuttling, yeah, but why do you shuttle? for more adrenaline thrills? Then... you can take like 6-7 shuttles a day in Malaga, who on Earth coming there in order to ride downhill, would take 3-4 instead on an E-bike thinking... oh I worked out a bit at least. Hmmm... I think long travel e-MTBs are mostly for people who are too lazy to train and exercise and just want more thrills out of each ride. Just like Burger King is for people too lazy to find proper food. I am not judging anyone, i like Burger King as much as I like E-bike, but I also don't want anyone to stuff me with half truths.

So E-bikes eco? No not really...
  • + 0
 @polebicycles: I can't wait to see the first pictures of your yet-to-come electric assisted bike. After my current Mondraker e-crafty I was planning to buy a Nicolaï g16-eboxx but I will wait to see what you will do...
  • + 3
 @polebicycles: Please make it with a shimano motor, not these overheating brose shit
  • + 3
 @polebicycles:
Something just occurred to me; if every rider of the 15-20 or so that would usually ride one uplift van got an e-bike, that's 15-20 more powered vehicles with all of the associated energy production, batteries, waste, etc involved instead of one.
So surely we should focus on making the motor industry manufacture more efficient vans instead?
  • + 21
 @WAKIdesigns: "I would not recommend half of those people to ride downhill until they polish their technique in a safe environment and get stronger physically." Well, that is your job, right?

I don't think Pole is the company that people come to buy an ebike that would fill your argument. I agree at some level to your reasoning but it's not as black and white how you present it. I personally train hard (I can challenge you any time for a Enduro or a downhill) Wink But still I would like to use ebike in our local bikepark. I normally do eight runs at one go but with ebike I could do more and I could ride those trails that are not that often ridden because they end up where it takes LONG TIME to get out from. I like to spend more time on the downhills when I do downhill. When I go for a trail riding, I don't see myself using an ebike.

And last. We are not searching for the ultimate eco-friendliness because then we all should just quit riding bikes and basically not to live in the first place. We have our standards to live by which might change over time because the development of things is inevitable. Pole is a personal project for me. I engineer our bikes, I 3D model the bikes, I design them, I ride them and I market them. Hell, I even shot the video, the photos and rendered the visuals to this press release personally. I also typed the text. There's no conspiracy here. The company breathes my personal philosophy as long as it can. It's not that I would need to do it. I just want to do it.

-Leo
  • + 0
 @AlexRob: Well... they are moving that way anyway so we just need to wait. I rather point out the individual freedom to choose what to ride when you are on ebike. Car's can not go everywhere.
  • + 29
 @polebicycles: thanks for the reply guys! I'm currently finishing my masters degree in environmental sciences and wrote my bachelor thesis on the life cycle impact of electric cars and just now finished a criticality study of Lithium, so that's kind of my subject.
Electric cars can, emission wise, easily be more ecological than petrol cars. That's because burning of the fuel adds up to about 87 % of life cycle emissions so the production phase is virtually of no consequence. So let's look at uplifts. Most lifts (in Europe at least) are electric, and because they are located in the mountains the electricity mix is usually very good due to hydropower. So you can't significantly even out emissions there.
As for shuttling, distances are really short, but yes, an ebike would still lead to less greenhouse gas emissions. Even a motorbike would lead to less emissions. But because of those really short distances, it would never be as significant as let's say driving an electric car for everyday use. You have to use it for large distances (and/or many years) to fully even out emissions of the battery (and motor etc.) production.
But atmospheric impacts are not the big problem with Lithium. In that respect it is comparable to many other metals (Aluminium is worse when it is a primary raw material!).
Hydrological and morphological impacts are in contrast huge. The main production countries are Australia, Chile and Argentina (91 %). South american production is located in brine lakes, most of them are in the driest places of South America. The production uses enormous amounts of water which can destabilize local ecospheres and groundwater flow. Australias mines are huge opencast pits, which aren't helping in these regards and things like contaminating groundwater either. The added market pressure will force new players like Bolivia into the global market and will force countries like China to up their production capacities, so you can assume ecological impacts will worsen because of underdeveloped or non-caring countries in the near future.
Another big problem is the end of life phase. Efficient recycling is possible but at the same time not economical. Batteries are therefore recycled soley for other ingredients and Lithium effectively dissipates for most parts. Additionally, an effective collection of used Lithium batteries is still missing.
And that's just the Lithium part. When you take rare earth metals from electric motors and other materials for the control systems into account, it won't get better. Not really good for a thing that is otherwise the most efficient machine on this planet. Takes pretty much all of that away.
And if you think about it from a more societal perspective it's really not good either. For most parts you really just don't need it. Some guys really can't ride otherwise due to health issues but I am certain that's a minority. Yeah it would make your life easier, just like a new hightech smartphone maybe. But for which price? E(mountain)bikes aren't marketed for disabled people but also for fit guys with a slogan like "more is better". Ebikes are a thing from the bike industry for maximising growth and simultaneously minimizing product life cycles which is basically the worst thing for your environmental impact possible.
  • + 6
 @jzPV: HEY EVERYONE! Here's how you make an argument. Good work.

"Ebikes are a thing from the bike industry for maximising growth and simultaneously minimizing product life cycles which is basically the worst thing for your environmental impact possible."It's like that but Pole doesn't represent "the industry". Bikes are toys. So are motorbikes and so on. I still think that if someone wants to get a toy that makes you climb the local hill is better than flying to somewhere else. The biggest enemy to people is the climate change. The greenhouse gasses that prevent the heat to escape back to space. It's better not to put more carbon dioxide to our atmosphere.
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: electric engines and emissions. Do you really want to go there? For starters, will you be responsible for recycling of batteries in your bikes? - do they come from a safe source? Or a factory that throws faulty cells into ocean? If You thought about this fine. Then electric in general. If we get fusion, awesome, if not, we will need quite a lot more of Nuclear Power Plants to power all these green cars. Which is fine. But if we go into coal even though power plants are relatively clean compared to what they have been, it’s less cool. Electric for me is moving the problem away from city centers. I live 300m from a highway - so I’m happy. However it is just pretending. Certain mass has to be moved from point A to point B, that requires certain amount of energy. Zero emissions is thus a bullcrap. Aside of energy and fossil fuel expenditure necessary to produce an electric powered vehicles. As I mentioned above batteries are highly toxic and require safe disposal. In such case, at least without Fusion, “cleaner” is simply polishing a turd. So the solution is using more of collective traffic and human powered bicycles. Simply not using personal vehicles. Similarly E-moto isn’t really a solution for ICE-moto, it still causes plenty of trail erosion. It still scares wildlife by noise of rolling through terrain. It still uses plenty energy to get produced, run and recycled. Less but still. E-MTB minimizes trail erosion, but regular bike still erodes trail less. How? It is lighter and covers less distance per each ride. But since e-bike proponents say: that makes some car drivers or moto riders use lighter bicycles I can say, well if you want to be so green then pedal.

As to your reply about MTB skill/fitness ambassaduership well, since you commited to e-bikes to ride the cash wave I don’t expect you to promote an actual lower impact of our hobby. I could simply use your arguments about hobby and having fun to carbon frames. Your environmental stance is incoherent, please don’t criticize other bike makers on that field again. For example BTR or Kingdom or Hope or BOS are clean in that respect. Again, I hope you will use “clean” batteries

I can see a meme: criticizes carbon, makes e-bikes. As simple as that.
  • + 5
 @polebicycles: Having an ebike won't stop anybody from flying anywhere, just like not having an ebike won't stop you from cycling. So in my opinion you can't justify the gains from an ebike.
Also, emtbs won't substitute cars or motorbikes in any significant way. So you do increase emissions most of the time.
Lastly, you can't weigh one environmental impact (like greenhouse gas emissions) more than another. That is beyond any scientific or rational reasoning, although there is an ongoing debate about this... mostly it differs who these impacts are affecting. Emissions for example affect everyone, but equally?

@WAKIdesigns : Yes, personal transport got out of hand massively. But you have to keep in mind that electric motors can contribute to using less energy, because they are significantly more efficient. More than 50 % more efficient than a diesel engine. Electricity production is still one of the biggest problems though, but there are ideas of integrating car batteries into a smart grid for energy storage. I think they will be one piece of the puzzle for more efficient transport. Other solutions like fossil fuels or even hydrogen are not efficient enough.
  • + 1
 @jzPV: So what do you think about urban ebikes then?
  • + 1
 Is this a good time to mention that we're 2,000 years overdue for our next apocalyptic ice age?
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: +1 to what Waki said. Incoherence is precisely the word here.
  • + 3
 @polebicycles: Indeed, if everyone having a 12,5km or less comute did it by bike or ebike rather than car, the world would be a better place (I say 12,5km cuz' it's half an hour at 25km/h).

Also an ebike is 25kg used to move a full grown human. A car is about 1200 or more kg to move the same human weight. Total waste of resources.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: "Well if you want to be so green then pedal"

This. More* green*. Double asterisk.
  • + 3
 @gdnorm: yeah but there is a certain range and effort that humans are willing to output on their own. As @Will-narayan said, e-bikes are inherently far more efficient than most other modes of transport because of two things:
1. They use human effort as well as electric power
2. Compared to any other motorised vehicles, they're light as hell. They're pretty much the only motorised vehicle typically lighter than the pilot.

Not many people are going to commute 20km each way to work completely under their own power, or ride that far to the trailhead, but if you cut the effort/time required to do that in half, then all of a sudden you do make it a lot more plausible. And that's much greener than driving.
  • + 4
 @polebicycles: that's in fact a different thing I think. If it stops people who won't ride a normal bike for commuting from using a car it is of course benefical. It substitutes a car for something far more efficient, especially since commuting traffic is probably the major usage of a car in industrial countries and it also is the least efficient way to use a car.
If an ebike on the other hand does not lead to more bike-time from the user, it has a negative environmental impact. It has no chance to amortize it's impact.

Back to shuttling: you won't shuttle that often like commuting. And still, who will shuttle right from his doorstep? Most people are not that lucky and still have to get to the trailhead and want to shuttle something more than just a few meters of vertical. And that still means using the car to get to the trail. Even if it would be rideable by bike, limited range will keep riders from doing that. And the drive to the trail will be outweighing the shuttling distance most of the time. So I think the shuttle argument doesn't hold up to environmental concerns.

@BenPea: By ever definition of the term ice age, we currently are still in one. If you mean glacial periods, we currently are still in one of those, too. And if oscillation stays the same (like it did for the last one million years) we will be for another 80000 years.
  • + 1
 @Socket: I'd like to see data to back up the claim, although it seems logical.
  • + 1
 @gdnorm: Which claim is that? You want me to present data from a peer-reviewed study saying that yes, people will ride e-bikes further than they'd ride a normal bike? Would you like a peer reviewed study to say that people are less likely to ride mountain bikes when it's raining than on a warm sunny day too?
  • + 1
 @Socket: no that they are the most energy/emissions efficient form of transportation on a per person basis. Namely in markets with dirty energy.
  • + 31
 2018 is shaping up quite nicely. Glad I didn't buy a bike this year. (Said every year for the last 5 years)
  • + 6
 *glad I didn't buy new(after seeing resale values past few years)
  • + 27
 At the end of the day, you still have to tell your buddies that you ride a pole.
  • + 5
 I rode a pole last night, really opened my eyes to new things. There was one large drop though and I came down a bit hard, my arse is still hurting.
  • + 20
 Three bottle mounts - the perfect XC race bike! Finally, I can stop bitching about a lack of bottle cages on a bike.
  • - 1
 My Pyga Stage Max gets two 1 Litre bottles inside the main triangle.

The first look article ( www.pinkbike.com/news/pyga-stage-max-eurobike-2015.html ) got quite a bit of excitement. Been hoping for a full review of this bike (with decent tyres on) since, to find pinkbike's opinion of my bike!
  • + 1
 @mikelevy : I reckon it just has 60mm too much travel front and rear for your liking!
  • + 1
 Gotta love those 160/180 travel 29er XC bikes Big Grin
  • + 2
 @Uuno: a short travel, lightweight bike with Pole's wild geometry would be a blast. I hope that the XC/TR is under 120mm rear travel.
  • + 1
 @Uuno: Patiently waiting Wink
  • + 18
 one bottlecage for a bottle, and the other 2 for those bottle shaped storage can things full of tools, spares and snacks! (and a first aid kit, ride responsibly kids)
  • + 1
 That's exactly what I have done on my HT. One bottle is stuffed with tools, Stans and CO2 just in case.
  • + 15
 Aside from the abhorrent marketing hyperbole, bike looks very interesting. But, come on... "The Machine is a cutting edge 29" superbike which can be used as the one bike for everything." ... would be a much better press release if the bullshite was left out.
  • + 4
 I have to agree. More than enough is too much.
  • + 15
 I want to test ride this... Anyway many reasons to believe it's great. Ticks all the boxes.

And finally, some innovation!! A radically new way of manufacturing frames, that's a bit better than boost don't you think?

Love this news Smile
  • + 9
 Oh and I have to add : marketing done by Finns... Haha, "an extension of yourself"
Doesn't take anything away from the product, but made me laugh!
  • + 0
 @Uuno: I'm glad that you found the catch ????
  • + 16
 Here, ride my Pole
  • + 25
 The geometry of your Pole doesn't suit my riding style,but thanks anyway.
  • + 11
 @nozes: head tube gets a new meaning.
  • + 1
 @nozes: You should have gotten a longer top tube
  • + 13
 Holy s#*t it’s gorgeous!!!
  • + 5
 but how good would it be with a Pinion? If you crossed the Deviate and Pole - 29 wheeled high pivot aluminium frame with gearbox.... then were talking.
  • + 3
 @fartymarty: have you ridden a pinion though? deviate + pole + gearbox with trigger shifter, doesn't feel like treacle, not mega heavy - then we're talking...
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: It would ne even better with an effigear gearbox!
  • + 1
 @etga6657: Effigear / Pinion, i'm not fussed.
  • + 1
 @hungrymonkey: I'm cool with grip shift and not overly bothered by weight. My current 29HT is 32# so no lightweight.
  • + 2
 @fartymarty: You’re basically talking about a frame coming from the UK very soon. Steel, High Pivot, Gearbox, 29...
  • + 1
 @AGR97: Steel is my material of choice so you very much have my attention... Can you give me any more details or even some piccys?
  • + 1
 @AGR97: Sick bicycles?
  • + 7
 Does anyone else feel a bit like in the nineties? All sorts of fancy, special things coming out Smile

Not sure I'm sold on too many of those ideas (maybe lessons learnt in the nineties), but sure it's interesting!
  • + 10
 Better than the same old boring shit that's been dribbling out of this tired uninspired industry since....
  • + 3
 Haha I think you're referring to Kooka cranks. CNC manufactured Kooka cranks. Broken Kooka cranks. All that other CNC stuff that looked awesome but snapped like twigs?
  • + 6
 So I'm going to assume there have been some new technologies that have emerged to make CNC machined parts a bit more failure resistant than they used to be in order to make a whole frame out of it. Are they extruding the pieces before machining or something? I'm just remembering from 20 years ago masses of awesome components milled from billet that looked really great but left all the inherent weak spots in an aluminum block present in the finished product. So you had all these cool cranks, stems, seatposts etc., that snapped the first chance it got. Maybe the billet forming process is better now. I'm no metallurgist but perhaps there are some on the internet that could shed some light on this?
  • + 3
 I would have thought it would be extruded first otherwise there would be a lot of boring out the inside of the tubes which wouldn’t be economically viable. Although they don’t say, some parts might be forged to make them stronger and roughly the right shape first. Billet has very good consistent properties though, it’s castings that be dodgy.
  • + 2
 Oh actually thinking about it more it’s probably made as two clam shells and glued down the centreline..
  • + 9
 Billet is definitely not as strong as forged or drawn materials, that is true, but failures of machined parts are a lot less to do with the materials and a lot more to do with the way they're designed and constructed - nearly everything in your suspension is machined for example, though failure of forged shock eyelets is more common than failure of machined ones in current model shocks. Pole have taken an interesting approach here. It appears that they have basically got a machined monocoque frame design, which from an engineering standpoint is interesting because of the potential to create physical geometry that varies in both profile and thickness almost as smoothly as carbon does (which eliminates a lot of the weak points inherent in welded frames), as well as using stronger material (7075 isn't weldable, but it is much stronger and more fatigue resistant than 6061) and processes that are inherently extremely precise and repeatable. Not about to buy one myself but pretty stoked to see innovation of this kind regardless. Funny to think that these were the guys producing bikes with BB-centric pivots a few years ago (which are completely asinine and should never exist), and now they're leading the charge on new-school geometry and manufacturing techniques. Well done @polebicycles , that is some progress right there.
  • + 1
 3D printed aluminium?
  • + 1
 @Socket: looks like the lower pivot is still BB-centric only its a dual link now thankfully
  • + 0
 @Socket: "Billet is definitely not as strong as forged or drawn materials". Not entirely true. Firstly, the 7075 can not be drawn for our knowledge. Secondly the oven is not very accurate. One part of the oven might be fine but the other part of the oven might not. The heat is not always consistent.

"...varies in both profile and thickness almost as smoothly as carbon does " Carbon is very inaccurate compared to machining as you compress it with a bag. I would say that both are accurate but the machining is more accurate Wink

"Well done @polebicycles , that is some progress right there." Thank you! Without producing the concentric link, we would not be here. We learned a lot about suspension and anti-squat from the concentric link. Without making it the current bikes would not be this fast.
  • + 1
 i'm still confused on what tool aluminum is... I've heard of tool steel but never aluminum...
  • + 0
 @rclugnut: 7075 is referred to tool aluminium and aerospace grade aluminium. Basically it's name comes from the applications it's being used in.
  • + 1
 @polebicycles: you are correct that 7075 isn't easily drawn, but it can be forged - in either case (with applicable materials) the grain refinement that it undergoes strengthens the material a lot. But a stronger material alone doesn't necessarily mean much if you can't get the geometry you want, or it costs a billion dollars, or it can't be joined or whatever.

With regards to the profile variation, I was referring to the shape of the frame and the fact that you can basically thicken carbon massively in certain areas and thin it out where necessary without sudden changes in geometry creating stress risers, which obviously you guys can achieve very well too - but is much harder to do with a conventional welded tubular metal frame.

Glad to see you guys are moving forwards like this. I actually don't think this particular bike is my cup of tea personally (though I could be wrong, haven't ridden it) but from a tech point of view it looks sick.
  • + 1
 @polebicycles: depends on the oven (I do heat treating as well as CNC). We have a very accurate furnace for heat treating. But you can only do one at a time. Probably not a high enough rate of production for you guys.
  • + 0
 @BorisRoberts: That is correct. If you look at the furnaces in Taiwan, it's pretty different to high end production where you need to be spot on, like we want to have it with the MACHINE. We get a certificate with every batch that we get the billets. Smile
  • + 8
 This, I hope, will change the industry. It's ticking all the right boxes for 21st-century bike production. Damn you, Finland, for being so innovative!
  • + 5
 It's a beautiful bike. Amazing looks and seems to tick all the boxes with geometry, tire clearance, water bottle cages, etc. However, call me a skeptic if you will, but these marketing phrases stand out:

- 100% "made" in Finland
- confidential machining time
- "secret" factory
- bonding pieces together in Finland

Devinci is labeled "made in Canada" because they perform a certain amount of assembly and finishing/painting in Canada, but all their carbon stuff is actually manufactured overseas. Is this bike truly 100% manufactured in Finland, or is the secrecy due to it only being assembled/finished in Finland?

Either way though, it is a beautiful bike. So beautiful in fact that the anti-ebike crowd has glossed over that last paragraph in the press release.
  • + 5
 all of devinci's alloy frames are welded in canada. I assume they outsource their tubing, but if you machine billet aluminum, its entirely possible to produce the entire bike in one country
  • - 8
flag sherbet Plus (Nov 23, 2017 at 14:45) (Below Threshold)
 I haven't seen Devinci claim they were made in Canada since the original Leos, which were made in Canada.
  • + 2
 If you've ever built a Devinci bike, you rarely get a made in Canada on the box anymore. It's mostly Vietnam now.
  • + 3
 @m47h13u: as of last year, devinci still made all their higher end frames here in Canada (aka bikes with +$1000 price tags), with tubing sourced from right next door to their facility in Bromont. So yes, still fully made in Canada for most of their ALU stuff, unless it's changed in the last few months.
  • + 0
 Of course I'm biased, but also informed on the Finnish industry. I'm not as skeptical, it is very possible they go from the aluminum billet to the finished frame in Finland.
  • + 30
 Well if you don't believe that we make 100% in Finland, you can always reason it: CNC machine price is the same globally. You can not buy the same machine cheaper in China than in Germany. Machine makes most of the work and a skilled operator might be slightly more expensive in Finland than in Taiwan but the logistics and the cheap electricity makes up the operator cost. Anyway, we will post later news about the machining.

And one more thing: how likely we would lie about this anyway? Smile
  • + 3
 @polebicycles: I am not, and did not, say you were lying. I said I was skeptical due to how things in Canada can be labeled as "made in Canada" when they really aren't.

Good on you folks for committing to local production though. That's awesome and I wish you luck!

I'm curious about the machining and how it works, so I'm looking forward to your future posts about it.
  • + 1
 I'm guessing there tongue is planted firmly in cheek about secrecy as they work on making their process more efficient.
  • + 2
 @ratedgg13: Their facility is in Chicoutimi... a 6 hour drive from Bromont! Xprezo was in Bromont. Wink
  • + 2
 @Timo82: good catch, thanks! Same principle applies though. Too bad Xprezo is no more... I liked their bikes.
  • - 1
 That's why Volvo uses "Made by Sweden" catchphrase. Maybe Devinci should change labels in a same way.
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: I was solving the CNC pricing 2 years ago when I was looking for a CNC shop to make retrofit suspension parts for my Rune V.15 frame. I don't know how many countries have you tried, but my experience is that CNC pricing is vastly different. In UK ran online CNC shop it's cheaper than in German online CNC shop, and that is still by 1/3 cheaper than in Slovak CNC shop (which one cannot grasp). Chinesse CNC shop that I reached through Alibaba did all the work for 1/3 of English cost. Yes, it was a one-piece task and not a higher volume contract.

photos.app.goo.gl/jcKHSrNDtnZMTgvS2
  • + 1
 @fluider: We are talking about five axis milling with high accuracy. The pieces that you show can be done on a 3 axis by just manually typing the values in. The pricing depends really about the workload of the machine and the company. If the company have their capacity nearly full, it's more productive to just sit out random small machining jobs or make the price so high that it actually makes profit.

Here's an example of the machine capabilities that is producing our frames. This is not the machine but I think you'll get the point. youtu.be/RnIvhlKT7SY
  • + 2
 @polebicycles:
...Wow...
Placing an order now (well, hoping you’ll upgrade my 158 Evolink pre-order to a Machine En)
  • + 2
 @fluider: for random crappy parts, you can outsource anywhere. When you require exact tolerances, trust worthy material certs, and special processing to be followed the differences become clear.

@polebicycles: CNC machines don't cost the same everywhere, but it is close enough to not make much difference. The availability and choices of machines and equipment support from different suppliers is the main difference country to country. Some places don't support Hurcos, some places don't support DMG. It all varies. A skilled operator is just a button pusher and set up tech to some degree (depending on your process planning, this can go from a simple clamp to a long setup with extensive measurements in process) and it's the programmer (or machinist) and process engineer that cost $$$ and this is where it's make or break. It's also worthy to note that manufacturing practices vary from country to country (also shop to shop) and some places are just better at producing certain product due to experience and level of skill for employees. I commend you for doing it in house, I'm curious on your equipment. I've seen it all.
  • + 5
 What happened in the last 3 months? The frame game has been so antiquated for way too long and now all the smaller guys are stepping up where the big guys just keep ignoring the wants of their consumers. First time in 3 years I actually want to build a new rig for its benefits. Come on Rotec, through out that new endure rig so I can decide!
  • + 4
 Why are they going to make other bikes if this is the quiver killer? The fact that the frame doesn't get painted is probably way more eco friendly than what its made of or the process. Super cool bike built in a Secret Factory.
  • + 7
 Where do you get a 180 29er fork from? I thought the longest anyone is making is 170?
  • + 3
 Inverted 27.5 dual crown, such as the emerald and manitou can be run as 29ers with minor modifications (travel limiters) I believe.
  • + 16
 Rock shox Lyrik 29 180mm, look it up
  • + 1
 A reduced Fox 49 has been done by Mojo
  • + 1
 This was my thought too but its only a matter of time if they don't already exist
  • + 1
 My Wreckoning is a monster. This bike takes it to the next level. I have yet to ever feel like the Wreck needs more than 160mm up front. I wonder how this bike would sit with a regular length fork?
  • + 7
 That top tube in beautiful! Pretty good looking bike, fast and raw, couldn't want anything more.
  • + 3
 'The oxidation process of the frame over time will produce a classy patine' You mean it will quickly corrode to the point at which it looks like an aluminium frame from 1993. I really like almost everything about this but that is BS.
  • + 4
 The 7075 ages a bit differently than the aluminium which was used in 1993 on bikes.
  • + 1
 7075 almost takes on a titanuim look when it oxidizes. Should be cool to see a frame do it.
  • + 4
 Finland is officially my favorite country: Some of the best metal bands in the world, a huge WRC (and motorsports in general) fanbase, and POLE releases the sexiest bike I've ever seen. Why am I still here??
  • + 13
 The weather maybe? I suggest you stay where you are.
  • + 3
 Flipping beautiful bike. Whilst failing at producing a polar bear resurrecting machine, I think Polebicycles have managed to spark one of the most inspiring awareness threads I have ever read. This wakidesigns guy also knows how to push a point, whether I agree with his approach or not. Really great to see most people on here has some form of environmental awareness ticker. Makes me think MTBing is some sort of selection pressure/bias for non-retardedness. But c*ntiness seems to be an inclusional prerequisite. Love it.
  • + 3
 What are the geometry numbers on this and how long is the seat tube (important for those of us who are tall and run 200 mm droppers). Great to see someone build a bike with proper tire clearance. Not like these machines don't get ridden in the mud, snow, etc.
  • + 1
 It's on the Pole website:
polebicycles.com/machine
Click on Geometry.
  • + 1
 Agreed. I suppose the Pole's longer chainstays give them more room to design larger clearances, but as a whole I wish the industry didnt continue to tell us that 2.6 tire have made 3" tires obsolete while still requiring we upgrade hub standards. If it were up to me every 29er would fit 3" tires and have a flip chip to run 275x2.6.
  • + 6
 The marketing spin used to highlight the benefits of all of the old technology is masterful.
  • + 1
 What other bike has been CNCed from a block or used 7075 T6?
  • + 1
 @dthomp325: there's been a few fully CNC'd frames, they all sucked though, I think mostly they were people's university projects and whatnot. Be interested to see how this one goes, looks the goods if nothing else.
  • + 1
 And to be pedantic, there's also been various 7075 T6 frames over the years. Although due to welding issues, they were bonded like Easton E9 tubed Reflexes BITD (circa 1990.....).
  • + 6
 That promise of a dh-bike is giving me a huge pole!
  • + 2
 Another classic from the money grabbing bike industry. Just as we had all got used to the two bottle mount standard changing to one, we suddenly have to go out and get more bottle cages and bottles just to satisfy their greed.
  • + 2
 5000$ CAD for a f*cking frame. It's inevitable the geo and "standards" used on this bike will be hot for a maximum of 3 - 4 years. This is ridiculous. Congratulations, we trusted you for taking the industry in a new direction ahead of its curve, but your making Nicolai's look like f*cking Norco's at that price point...
  • + 1
 Priced out a Trek Slash or a Yeti Turq frameset lately????
  • + 2
 @polebicycles What is the reasoning that the 3D render is totally different than what the actual frame looks like in the video? Which on of them is the actual frame? Is either one of them a prototype? If yes, you should align them with each other because it misleading, and basically your marketing assets as is are used to market a totally different product (whether the final product is present in the video or the 3d model doesn't rally matter, one of them doesn't represent the reality so to speak).
  • + 1
 You are right. The render differs from the prototype that is shown, I guess we should have addressed it a bit more clearcly. The 3D model (renderings) is closer to what we will produce. We launched the bike for the presale just to see how people interested are in this kind of bike before we put half millon € to the dedicated CNC machines. The prototype has blown us away by it's potential and that's why we are so confident to make a launch.
  • + 2
 @seccitaj not everything can be prototyped in the same manner as it will be produced. Production methods requiring huge up front investment invariably have prototypes that are different from the production version in some way. In this case it looks like more parts, bolted together rather than bonded.
  • + 1
 @Socket: I am well aware of that. My issue was that there were no reference to the fact that the bike in the video is different to what the 3D-rendered image is. Nor was it made clear which one is the final frame.

Now it even seems that neither of them is the final product, so i find it quite immoral to market and pre-sale a product with images and a video, that might not even represent the final product. On the very least, it should be made absolutely clear that the ones pre-ordering the bike might not get either one of the bike frames shown in this article / their website. If someone is to throw 3500 euros or so at them, they should the very least know and see what they will be getting with the money - instead of a raw prototype and (what seems like) an idealistic 3d-rendered picture of the bike.
  • + 1
 @seccitaj: Exactly what differences are you seeing? The physical proto and the rendering look pretty damn similar to me, besides the bolted construction rather than bonded (and the bolt on upper shock mount). I design, prototype and produce products for a living, these look like pretty typical prototype/preproduction developments from my point of view, not entirely sure why you're so aggressive towards a frame that could not realistically be expected to be shown in full production guise before the best part of a million bucks is spent tooling up for it. I don't know if you recall, but the reason YT is now so big is because they did the same sort of thing back when they first started up - they were pre-selling frames/bikes like 8 months in advance or something, and building the frames to order. IIRC they won some German business award for that business model too. Evil, Banshee and a bunch of others sold bikes based off renderings alone too. I'm not about to lay money out for this bike personally, but I could see why people would, and why Pole would be doing this. Even if I thought your concerns were valid, the way Pole is going about this is still a long way ahead of anything you find on Kickstarter anyway - at least they've proven that they can successfully bring a product to market already.
  • + 1
 @Socket: The shape of the top tube is totally different between the video and the 3D model. The finish of the frame is totally different in the 3d render compared to what is described the final finish to be in the actual press release (and is present in the video). There is a difference in the chainstay shape as well. And as you most likely as a designer realize, even slightest differences in overall lines or shapes of a product can change it's overall shape quite a bit. In this case, the top tube is not even close to being similar. The prototype's top top tube is OVERLY curved, where as that problem has magically disappeared in the 3D render. The obvious difference is also in a such a prominent location, that it changes the whole outlook of the frame drastically.

I am not being overly aggressive about their product, i work as a creative in advertising agency. So i know a thing or two about selling things to people - and we constantly face the issue about what is considered basically lying, what is immoral etc. Our every day client would get executed from using marketing assets that are so far from the truth - not to mention accepting pre-sales based on those. It just makes me generally disgusted that they are utilizing a strategy like this in trying not to only hype their product, but actually SELL their product!

As a proud Finn i would be more than glad to see Pole succeed in any way possible, but i just see a lot of dodgy shit with how this frame / bike is released - not to mention the wannabe-eco-backstory of their's (let's not even get into it really here). And looking at this thread, i am not the only one being skeptic here.

All in all, i think they should have just used all this to purely create hype. Selling bikes based on the information available here is just where i think they crossed the line. Even Leo himself said the final bike is basically not going to be either of the ones here, but something "more along the lines of the 3d picture".
  • + 2
 When we have machined frame, we can change the design every week and when the performance is better. We are using the most viable product design method. We believe this method is better. We improve the bike within weeks so every customer can really have the newest design available instead of the year models. It's not same as software but maybe as close as it can be with physical product. Yes, we cross the lines because this is what startup companies do. We challenge the status quo that has been around too long.

Everyone who ordered the bike without knowing the outcome will get a frame that is exceptional piece of engineering and design from a company that has values over money.

@seccitaj: Lighten up. Don't be the jealous Finn. Wink
  • + 1
 @Socket: The prototype is bonded. We use mechanical attachment as a jig that presses the frame parts together. We leave the bolts on the frame in production.

Basically the prototype's performance is our reference point. It outperformed already our expectations so we are really excited to produce the next proto to see what happens when we drastically drop the weight of the frame. Does it perform as good or not... we'll see.
  • + 6
 Specialized and their lawyers are not happy
  • + 15
 They're not happy, unless you're not happy.
  • + 8
 Specialized lawyers were all instructed to log on and negative prop you.
  • + 4
 I am truly f*cking flabergasted! Amazingly, not one negative comment about the bike yet. Where did all the keyboard tough guys go?? That is a wicked looking bike.
  • + 2
 Disc mounts are also glued ? They look tiny and sensible...let them have some four piston “mambo jambo” action with proper rotor and we’ll talk about it ! If they built it to be Fast I hope it’s furious also when it come to braking descends and pedal bob up the track. Looks nice, clean and reminds me of Corratec curvy frames that manage torsional forces...Stiffy ..let the one mc of 7075 CNC love “bond” with the trail...can’t wait to see it evolve in UCI DH cup near the millenium marketing monster frames ! Playground and test, bets are open folks ...
  • + 3
 Hey Pole, if you send me one, I will colorgrade your video so it isn't bluer than a dystopian sci-fi movie for free! Or, you know, shoot a way better one. The frame looks sick, that video is super sad in comparison.
  • + 20
 If you buy the bike, we will remove the color boost for you. Wink
  • + 2
 Ha, owned!
  • + 2
 Kudos to pole. After the carbon ocean fill attack on what was presumably “Scott” for the lightest carbon frames available on the market and dirty ocean fill I would like to hear more about what they are doing as far as recycling the shavings and energy consumption for the machines used to cnc a solid block of aluminum. Not denying that this company has its shit together, but I wanna hear more to this story.
  • + 5
 That is insanely awesome! There arent a lot of new bikes that make you sit up and pay attention but this one... WOW!
  • + 2
 External routing, that's a real plus! Excited to see how things with pole evolve, I wish them luck. A frame produced where it is used (speaking as a european) makes a lot of sense to me, however I am still waiting for the big 'pink bike environmental report', where a proper lifecycle analysis is conducted for both aluminum and carbon frames.

The part with the e-bikes; naaaah....
  • + 2
 I have had an evolink 140 for a couple months and I'm so sold on the concept that I placed a pre-order on the machine as soon as it was available. I can't afford it, but I'll find a way
  • + 2
 First Deviate with a really nice Pinion-Enduro and now this beautiful machine. It is really nice to see new small companies popping up with great ideas that the big old brands would never even think about. Thumps up.
  • + 4
 Stunning but not for me with that massive wheelbase....ill get downvoted but this trend has jumped the shark
  • + 1
 This is great to see a small company like @polebicycles coming to market with something that is far different from what the majority of all other companies is doing.
No matter what people think about raw material recycling and environmental impact of one solution or another, we should admit what Pole did with this frame design is absolutely awesome. Knowing how hard it is to design a bike frame with complexe shape, I can not imagine the amount of CAD work to design both internal and external shape with the right thickness in each area, and this for multiple size frame.
I personally believe that carbon proliferate a lot this past years because this material allow complex frame design that people like, and is able to resist to high load staying stiff and lightweight.
Pole’s approach is really good and bring a strong alternative to carbon . Congratulations
  • + 2
 OK, I'm not going to ready 500 comments, and that frame is a both innovative and lust-worthy, but did anybody notice the price? Most expensive aluminum frame ever? Most expensive (non hand-made) frame ever?
  • + 1
 Stunning frame. enviro friendly and most of the nordics have already met there 2020 green targets where Uk and US are still using coal. so 40%^ of that electric will be from green. A fraction of the resin used in Carbon frames light strong i love it. cant wait fro a 160f/140rear version. i will start saving now.
  • + 1
 Nice bike and concept...I have a 19r old alloy cannondale in my garage that I still ride some. I think my bike hobie is a good environmental choice period. Was gonna read all this shit then saw a few bikers ride by the trail out my window this winter day ( it’s actually unseasonably warm due to what I believe to be caused by global time warming) and I thought..........time to go for a ride! On a bike! With 2 wheels...anybody coming with....later
  • + 1
 lengthy and animated diskussion here. can see the advantages of a process where made-to-order frames of different sizes and varieties is easy and quick with short lead times. but as usual the main point is how it boils down to production cost. carbon fiber frames but also welding of aluminum frames tend to be labor intensive. if you can pretend there are environmental advantages with a different process all the better. but i seriously doubt creating 10-100 times aluminum albeit recyclable waste for each frame produced is an environmentally sound idea. diecast aluminum i believe is not as strong as smithered varieties, so you vill need more grams of material to achieve the same strength. especially if you make unnecessary bends and stress points as in the seat stay and top tube of the design presented here.
  • + 2
 @polebicycles: can i ask why you dont use close to form forgings, that way you have less machining waste, less machining time, the ratio of recycled alum to new alum can be a lot higher and you get better grain structure
  • + 1
 moneymoneymoney-moneeeee!
  • + 1
 Is the frame present in the photos an early prototype, or is there some other reason that the frame in photos looks ugly as f*ck (especially from the super-overly-curved toptube area), where as the frame in the 3d-rendered image, well not definately great nor sexy, but not ugly-as-f*ck-level either?

In case they are both presenting the final product, i would suggest you re-model the 3D-rendering to more closely match what the frame actually looks like, because if you will use that to market the final product (as shown in the photos), i'd say that's almost like actually shipping a different product alltogether Big Grin
  • + 1
 Does look good, but at face value it would have constrains (internal cables). Would be interested in how the real world ride experience would feel... jumping from alloy to carbon was a step change in improved feeling.

Also, where's the geometry chart?
  • + 1
 This is some very fine looking frame. I commend Pole Bicycles for thinking out of the box geo wise and being bold with manufacturing processes on the environmental side of things. Now is time for them to make some aggressive hardtails.
  • + 1
 @polebicycles
Why is Machine not available in custom sizing? Yes, like Robot Bike. Somehow, given the low production volume and production process it would seem that "perfect" sizing could be reached (no pun intended) with ease.

Given my previous criticism of your pricing for a bike made in Taiwan (compared to the Nicolai), this, far from being cheap, looks very decent for what it is. It also looks better then in those earlier teaser photos.

Also, it would be nice if you provided some linkage analysis diagrams (vs Evolink).
  • + 2
 Hi. I ride M+ frame. We have a half size program in progress but it's too early to present it.

Here's the comparison to EVOLINK 140 facebook.com/polebicycles/posts/1390393477749999
  • + 1
 @polebicycles:

Thanks. Given the much higher pedal kickback values compared to EVOLINK 140, my guess is that anti-squat characteristic of the system is improved (higher) versus EVOLINK 140.
  • + 1
 I´ll just have to say:

If pole instead of machining from a square billet, actually sandcast(or other casting technique) the rough shapes of their frame halves, they would reduce the amount of used aluminium significantly. Instead of machining out every cavity, they would only need to refine the rough cast to the final machined product. Think in the way of a intake manifold on a car, or an aluminium top on an engine. The material they used to cast these sandcasts would have been from recycled aluminium. A simple process, and reduces waste drastically. I also have to mention that scandinavian countries are on the forefront of using clean energy. That´s why we produce an incredible amount of the aluminium parts used by the VAG concern here in Norway. Cheap, sustainable and good quality. I´ll also have to add that my master is within industrial design.
  • + 2
 If they were to cast the frame first, they would lose all of the strength of 7075. It's a forged billet. Cast aluminum is incredibly porous and weak.
  • + 3
 @polebicycles, what's the rationale for not producing a 27.5 version? Some people just don't want a 29er, for whatever reason.
  • + 1
 27.5 should never have existed...
  • + 1
 As for such a small company as Pole is, their PR is strikingly reminding me of worst examples. I have nothing against the bikes, I'm sure they are interesting to ride, they look good, but the story telling part is just terrible. And then they accuse 90% of the bike world for being planet killers, while they themselves make their frames in Asia, without presenting a tiniest piece of evidence on how they are made, how their production facility applies any sort of environment protecting policies is just pure hypocrisy. Using it for marketing purposes like that is just annoying. Yea many people bought it, bravo bravo, slow clap, you appealed to idiots yeah, they won't buy your frame though... And then, how can you go to sleep at night considering that your bikes are fitted with all sorts of components, that surely kill fish? Maxxis tyres? I expected Continental ( BTW two different tyres for pics for marketing campaign, interesting...) Fork, not EU made, Wheels, cranks and brakes, not Hope. All those components come in tons of cardboard boxes. And then CNCing more energy efficient than making tubing and welding it together?

Oh and that crap about the "cutting edge" - honestly, save it for Giant or Trek. All this is just making me genuinely angry. I'd rather suck Mike Sinyards cock to get 50% discount on SWorks E29 coil than buy this. Sorry... when I see bikes from Sicklines, BTR or Swarf I know it's not cutting edge tech. But it's a well working bicycle made by cool honest guys standing behind it, all product - no bullshit, worth supporting, it's a "shopping experience" (I apologize to reduce it to this) that you will never be able to deliver with all this self righteous bullshit sprinkled with the most crude bicycle industry bollocks. If I want to hear about cutting edge bike tech I go to UNNO, guys who actually do work with stuff that is way over your head, F1, moto GP, automotive, motorcycle etc.

So for the sake of your business stop spreading marketing shit all over your otherwise good products.
  • + 1
 Well at least the Newmen wheelset on the pictures is manufactured in Germany. Hubs made in Germany and laced and trued by hand in Germany.
  • + 1
 Oh I think someone is jealous ???? just because the product is from finland and not from sweden ????
  • + 0
 @mirskeinereingefalln: The Newmen wheels were really good.
  • + 4
 Well. I don't agree with you but we don't need to agree on opinions. There will be evidence about our production, but that's the next story. I love people like you who are so passionate about bikes. I think you could draw a cartoon about Pole because your manners, writing, fact check and argumentation is horrible. Your artwork in the other hand is very good, why don't you use that instead of ranting around. I would love to see more parody about the bike industry.
  • + 0
 @Waki- I actually agree with your sentiments in this rant. Well done. My attraction to this Pole is the hope it gives me that we in the US could do the same thing at somepoint and create something cutting edge and not cave under the EPA regs that kill CF production here in the US.
I hate CF for 2 reasons. It seems to be virtually impossible to produce economically in anyplace but 3rd world shitholes, and the molds required and their cost make it a big compny only excercise and prevents innovation on sizing and geometry.
Pole's virtue signalling is in fact bullshit.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns do you some personal issue with pole? You seem to be very outspoken and extremely critical throughout. Marketing - how is it different to just about every other brand? Wheres your rant on thise articles?

Enviro cred - you seem to be saying don't do anything and dont be proud of enviro conscientiousness. Wtf? Typical climate denier crap.

Ebile - id tend to agree but the rest if what you have said makes you look like a lunatic.

Just chill mate
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: lol keep scraping to fry and find information to support your campaign.

I guess this could damage antidotes reputation so i understand your motivation.
  • + 0
 @russthedog: I didn't need to scrape. Just came up on Bike Radars FB feed.
  • + 0
 @chasejj: EPA regs in the US don't kill any business. That's a bunch of political bs. The companies don't even abide by the majority of them, and they get a slap on the hand if caught. EPA needs to be much more strict.
  • + 1
 I used to work with a guy like wackodesigns... they are just that, wackos, weird MFs.
  • + 1
 @polebicycles: I met you at Eurobike 2016, we had a cool talk and you took time to explain to me your bikes. Congratulatios on your company / designs and what you are achieving.
  • + 0
 @dualsuspensiondave: In fact the EPA does kill businesses before they even start. Ask any frame builder or manufacturing business who has looked into the possibilities of producing here.
Mostly VOC regs kill it before it gets off Phase 1. I see you get real defensive about EPA on other threads. You must be one of them. A more arrogant and obnoxious bunch of bureaucrats has never been created. Hopefully we can get an additional 30% cut in their budget next year which should shrink it down to it's essential size for actually upholding needed regs.
  • + 0
 @chasejj: Not a chance, the EPA regulations are very minimal. They ask companies not pollute, it's very basic and common sense. I work as a consultant and I see it all the time. Companies are getting PAID to abide by EPA regulations, and instead they pocket the money and pollute because EPA doesn't do anything about it. One would have to be a complete moron that has no education and no clue about actual science to vote for an EPA budget cut, they are way underfunded now. Go ahead, throw your garbage on the ground and have no respect for anyone or anything but yourself.

The main reason that labor is outsourced to other countries is because people do good work for less money, very simple.
  • + 1
 @dualsuspensiondave: Dave- I have extensive experience with the EPA and in no way are they reasonable or just using common sense with their regs and enforcement. It has gotten way out of control and needs to scaled back significantly. Thank you President Trump. 30% cut of EPA's budget is a good start.
This is leading to companies to run to asian countries to have virtually no safeguards. Not necessarily the right thing to do. Which is Pole's whole point, however their virtue signaling as marketing is very annoying.
We can do it in the US but the combination of labor rates and prohibitive regulations kill the whole idea unless you want to pay $4-5K for a CF frame that sells for $3K from some 3rd world shithole. I guess you would just as soon crap on your neighbor to get that $1500 discount then?
  • + 4
 I can't wait for the Pole eBike. Blind Pole hype and bandwagoning vs reflexive hate of eBikes. What will win out!
  • + 1
 Just as long as they dont advertise theor e cycle on mtb sites...
  • + 4
 "I want to ride the Pole Machine".

Just saying.
  • + 1
 Wow, want. Someone is going to have to work pretty hard to convince me this isn't my next bike. Not due to purchase for a couple of years so hoping Pole can work out how to squeeze a pinion in that time
  • + 2
 Or even better, a trigger-shifter operated effigear gearbox
  • + 0
 So @WAKIdesigns Obi-wan - what's your take on the current cream of the crops: UNNO, Pole Machine, Nicolai ION-G, Arbr Saker, BTR Pinner, Starling Murmur, Sick! Have Blue, Portus Flotte Karl etc. Plenty nice bikes this winter, that's for sure. Want to do a light 29er trail build with ION-G like geo this winter. Drooling on a slightly gusseted up Nicolai Saturn with custom geo like the G13.
  • + 0
 Wow. This bike really is the “ultimate expression.” Why let your riding do the talking, when your bike can do it for you? But to be clear, above all else, the Internet has led me to believe that I NEED LONG, LOW, and SLACK! Will this new Pole fit the bill? Oh yeah, and if you wanna climb like the madman in the promo video, you simply cannot do so on anything less than a 90* seat tube angle.
  • + 2
 Could you maku a long slopestyle bike? Does dj bikes have to be so tiny? You are welcome to use my slopestyle course for testing in Töysä, 2 hours from Jyväskylä.
  • + 1
 Anyone else notice that the bike in the video doesn't have the 90° rotated shock? Looks like they've redesigned the front shock mount completely. Even added a bearing. Wonder what drove the late change.
  • + 1
 Quick note on the tire clearance: the company’s website lists the 3” clearance with a 27.5” size. The 29er clearance is 2.8”

Also the wheelbase is massive on this bike: 1305mm (51”) in a medium size.
  • + 1
 There was a typo on the Machine page. You can put a 3" tire on the Machine. We fixed the typo on the site. Thank you for pointing it out.
  • + 1
 Nice frame lines, looks sexy IMO. Good to see someone trying things differently on the production side and also designed around a 180mm fork. Even if its not your thing, its PROGRESSIVE.
  • + 2
 So hope the 140 trail bike they mention is a 29er. Now that I would get excited about for where I ride. Might give up my evil.
  • + 1
 Yip, looking forward to more info on the trail bike.
  • + 3
 "Probably the fastest bike on the planet", except when we came in second fastest to the Santa Cruz Hightower LT.
  • + 2
 I think that makes it second fastest bike on the planet. Which makes it exactly the same marketing Bullsh*t as everyone else.

Does not matter because DAM i like that bike.
  • + 1
 I am interested to see who will be the first bike brand to start 3D printing their bikes. 3D printing would also allow for some designs that are not possible to be manufactured on a CNC machine.
  • + 1
 3D printing as it currently stands is not really well suited for bike manufacturing. It's great for prototyping of complex shapes but still needs post-machining for accurate tolerances and is very slow by production standards. That may change but that's the current state of play.
  • + 1
 Could you expand on what 3d printing/rapid prototyping can do, that can't be done on a CNC?
  • + 1
 @BorisRoberts: DLMS and 3D printing can create hollow one piece structures which can't be machined, and you can create undercut geometry that isn't possible to machine. You could for example create a frame with an internal honeycomb rib structure that's all one continuous piece. Unfortunately given how slow and expensive it is now, it's a long way from being a feasible production method for bike parts.
  • + 1
 Problem is the mechanical properties of any economic 3D printing material are not sufficient for a bike. Maybe in a few years, but not yet.
  • + 2
 Outland learned the had way putting non anodized 7075 frames on the market at first with their Busby designed VVP . Not a desired outcome .
  • + 3
 This looks super similar to the Lost Bikes creation...
www.instagram.com/p/BZpJOT0hFed/?taken-by=lostbikes
  • + 0
 Call the POLE ic,that rear chain stays look’s look like a SUNN kern or something like that from the 200?,then a Mondraker then an Italian some thing like anci??something then a first generation nomad ,then a specialized demo number ? Then a pole ,but defently not a trek ,strange! Good job guys or girls ,it just seems simple ,good luck
  • + 1
 Hope you know there are good reasons why exposed aluminum is anodized usually.

If corrosion is what you like as „patine with carrisma“ carry on

Looks fancy for a couple of weeks......
  • + 1
 la concha de tu madre all boys!!! ta re mansa la bici, pero igual no la compraria porque no apoya el mercado local, y le pasarian blem, son todos unos nefastos que no vienen a correr
  • + 2
 I'm confused, the bike in the renders is quite different than the one in the video. Is the bike in the video a proto? Will the final frame look like the render?
  • + 1
 sam hill is actually a god: enduromag says his bike is 5s. slower every 2minutes compared to the one of dailly -and surprise- the 2 29ers were fastest
  • + 1
 Someone out there should put up those anti automotive ads from the past, but with a little twist: "If you ride a carbon bike, you ride with Hitler."
  • + 1
 The seat tube should bend and connect on then opposite side because when you photo a bike you do so on the driveside, so you'd want to see the shock aswell. IMO.
  • + 3
 is it environmentally friendly CNC?
  • + 6
 Modern CNC machines (especially high spindle speed / low torque surfacing that this frame will see a lot of) don't use as much electricity as you might think, tooling use will be low again due to the material being cut, sounds like they are removing the need for paint too and will obviously recycle scrap chips.

Couple this with making it in the country of sale rather than in the far east it doesn't sound too bad for a nice-low volume setup like Pole.
  • + 1
 @robbo989: aaaah sorry. Forgot to check up on the current 'in jokes'.

Thanks for putting me right though, well done!
  • + 1
 ""Super clearance - It's possible to run a 3" tire on the back. Mud clogs with the standard 2.35" tires will be a thing of the past.""

3" clearance? 29" frame"? YES!!
  • + 1
 3" 29er tyres must weigh a stack. And why run one at the back. Just get a narrower mud spike if mud riding is your thing.

Bike looks great.
  • - 1
 @headshot: England and Finland have one thing common:f*cking Stacking massive MudShit. Mudspike tyres will clear off but with pine needles and leafs together with mud will make frame gather all that shit.
  • + 2
 Very likely my next bike! Awesome looking. Hope it holds together and weighs in at a reasonable weight for what it is.
  • + 1
 They have the est weight on their site. I believe 6.5lbs med no shock....reasonable compared to other long travel 29ers
  • + 1
 Copied from their site: "~3,2 kg (size M including hardware WO shock)" that's more then 7lb, and without shock. Competitive for heavy duty aluminum frame I guess.
  • + 2
 I would like a carbon bike manufactured by machines burning only all natural whale oil
  • + 1
 Nothing wrong with bikes made of tubes... since you can actually have internal hose/cables!
I guess they ran out of enthusiasm for deep hole drilling?
  • + 2
 "Check out this cool bike!"
Top comment is about recycling.
See? MTB cares.
  • + 3
 6950€ and I don't get a stealth routed dropper post? Nice.
  • + 2
 "robotically CNC machined"... ah yes, as opposed to CNC manual machining.... right.
  • + 2
 While not quite as long as the Pole, the Nukeproof mega 290 bikes also have long wb and chainstays...and they are a bargain!
  • + 2
 I wonder if the new 200mm DH model will be a 29" or a 650B... if it's 650B ill be buying it.
  • + 1
 This is way sexier than the carbon version they walked away from. Too bad they couldn't figure out a way to make the dropper post cable routing stealth though.
  • + 1
 It will take stealth through a hole just above the BB, there is also a "Fox hole" for Fox droppers on the Top tube.
  • + 1
 So your light trail/xc bike will be a 160/140mm 29er bike!? lol Will it be less extreme than the Evolink or simply the same bike with a new frame?
  • + 3
 7075 will corroded very fast without a protective coating............
  • + 2
 POLE please make 140mm pinion version
  • + 1
 Anyone shocked by the 660mm stack height? Seems pretty high considering most mfgs are around 600mm... typo?
  • + 1
 Chris king has been leading by example for decades now. chrisking.com/ourfootprint
  • + 1
 Forgive my engineering/metallurgy ignorance, costs aside, could one be machined from a single piece of Titanium?
  • + 5
 Yep. Google "f22 titanium bulkhead" to see what can be done when cost really is no object.
  • + 3
 @VorsprungSuspension: you can also see uh60a rotor head for 1 piece forged titanium awesomeness
  • + 1
 Helicopters hey... the BK117/EC145 rotorhead is another thing of beauty @gotohe11carolina:
  • + 2
 A 3" X 24" X 24" piece of grade 2 titanium, is about $6600. How much do you want to pay for a frame?
  • + 1
 Was anyone else hoping to see a timelapse of the machining process? The guy didn't seem that fast in the video.
  • + 0
 Honest of them to admit their e-bike goals after trying to seem like they had principles // I guess it was just marketing BS - another frame I will never consider.
  • + 1
 They are going to sell it as a "self-Shuttle" machine that means you don't have to take a lift or vehicle to the top saving untold whales and lowering your carbon foot print.
  • + 1
 "The oxidation process of the frame over time will produce a classy patine."
  • + 1
 I really hope you guys recycle the scrap metal... Looks freekin' good though. Cheers to that!
  • + 1
 “Hey, nice bike”
“Thanks man!”
“What is it?”
“It’s a Pole”
***snicker, snicker***
“You ride Pole!”
  • + 2
 So it's two CNC'd halves bolted together? It looks gorgeous.
  • + 7
 "The front and the rear triangles are made of three parts that are bonded together with glue..."

Probably not the stuff I used to eat in kindergarten.
  • + 1
 @Powderface: I wonder if any interference fit parts are used or if it relies on glue alone.

I suppose they glue planes together without them falling out of the sky....
  • + 1
 @Racer951: In fact, they do
  • + 1
 @Racer951:
Probably just the adhesive. If they're claiming it's the same as aerospace, then it would likely be something in the Cytec Metlbond family, which are usually stronger than the aluminum they're bonded to.
  • + 2
 Where is anyone gonna get a 180mm 29r fork?
  • + 5
 The new lyrik is 180mm in 29"
  • + 9
 small company, just started up. Go under the name RockShox, but are actually part of the all but unheard of Sram.
  • + 2
 'Hold on one more minute honey, Im almost done...'
  • + 6
 Its been 40 hours, are you STILL milling that thing?!
  • + 1
 @polebicycles Hey! Could you send me a link to how this is manufactured or something similar? Thanks!
  • + 2
 I just seen my new dream bike..simply amazing..
  • + 1
 If anything, this gives an idea of just how much an Al "mold" costs for a carbon frame. xD
  • + 1
 Amazing looking bike, wondered how the tubes are hollowed out in the machining process...
  • + 2
 Finally a video that looks like me riding...
  • + 1
 I love a new approach to framebuilding. Now when do we get our metal foam frame bits.
  • + 2
 When will they name one of their bikes the "Soul"?
  • + 7
 What about 'Dance'?
  • + 2
 Wow, this was one Pole-arizing article...
  • + 1
 I'd love to try this, but I don't think I'd want to lay down the cash without being able to ride it on a legit trail.
  • + 1
 Sooooo, does it have a threaded BB? Can't tell from pictures, If not, why not?
  • + 3
 But... glue?
  • + 1
 Would be cool with the pinion gearbox....
  • + 1
 What's the main pivot doing way downt there?
  • + 1
 Why not anodize it to offer colors?
  • + 1
 I'd totally throw a leg over that pole.
  • + 1
 Engineering and art,shake hands! Good work,POLE!
  • + 1
 Wow what a come back! That thing looks sick!
  • + 1
 im just here for the speedtest
  • + 1
 this bike has everything!!!!!!!!!!!!! wait!! the gearbox!!!
  • + 1
 impressed to say the least! good on you guys for sticking to your guns
  • + 1
 I don't really like it. I don't know why
  • + 1
 Blue anodised with white decals and cheaper than Nicolai?
  • + 1
 A "superbike" with only 3 water bottle mounts?!
  • + 1
 looking forward to seeing a bunch of split frames in three or four years.
  • + 1
 And the maximum length dropper post it will accommodate is?
  • + 1
 I prefer my alu welded, not glued.
  • + 1
 can't wait to see the DH platform!
  • + 1
 "tool aluminium"? Really? Please explain to me what that is.
  • + 1
 Id ditch all my carbon bikes for this at any time!!!
  • + 1
 I can't believe I'm agreeing with Waki
  • + 2
 WTF!
  • + 1
 all in CNC wooww ! beauty
  • + 1
 waiting for the taival hardtail! stunning looking machine
  • + 2
 Geometry/sizing?
  • + 0
 Wait a sec, do 180mm travel 29er forks even exist?
Or is this double crown only?
  • + 1
 Pure rock garden machine. No dents, hard as fuck. just hold on and go
  • + 1
 Is this the bitch about everything forum.
  • + 1
 Looks nice but does it have a warranty?
  • + 1
 Whatever it’s made of, it’s a real thing of beauty that’s for sure!
  • + 2
 Looks like an alien.
  • + 1
 Simply stunning.
  • + 1
 Obscene
  • + 1
 Looking GOOD!
  • + 1
 You had me at "CNC"
  • + 1
 It's an awesome bike.
  • + 1
 Beautiful looking frame!
  • + 1
 not sure how i feel
  • + 1
 How much usd$ for frame?
  • + 1
 Looks like $3300! Yikes...you can get a complete 1 year old used bike with eagle, carbon hoops for @3500-4k which retailed for @$8k new. Of course, not too many folks pay retail/full price for high end mtb.
  • + 0
 Please , could somebody explain to me whats "cutting edge" on this bike?
  • + 1
 Exciting
  • + 1
 Amazing looking frame
  • + 1
 Geometry Chart anywhere?
  • - 1
 Pricing just went live, 2700 euros for just the frame. Maybe a bit on the steep side?
  • + 1
 It's 3,450 Euro for the frame and 6,950 for the full build....
  • + 1
 @Travel66:
This is strange 2h ago it was 5600 for the complete build. Now its more.
  • + 0
 @mikaeljc: It was price with out VAT.
  • + 0
 industrial designer wet dream. soooo beautiful. heyyyyyyyyyy
  • + 1
 anyone order one?
  • + 1
 One awesome looking bike
  • + 1
 The future has arrived.
  • - 1
 This is the sexiest frame ever made. Whats the frame price?
  • + 1
 3450 euro... Holy Cows.. that is more than a Santa Cruz Frame! :O
  • + 0
 Can you say "5 axis"?
  • + 0
 3 axis i imagine - 3D surfacing no need for more. Besides, a 5 axis mill with a table big enough for a frame would be hugely expensive.
  • + 1
 @Racer951: I think it’s made in separate bits which are then bonded together.
  • + 1
 @Racer951: Interesting, I'd like to know how they machine this thing, with a 3 axis you'd need some fixturing to prevent chatter and multiple setups, hence my 5 axis guess. Seatpost bore, headset bore, at different angles to each other. BB and pivot holes same axis. I wonder if they use a casting and machine that.
  • + 1
 @cliocatface: there is a better pic on the instagram post, 3D surfacing the internal shape with location points then I imagine flipped on a fixture, cut excess stock away and 3D surface to finish, he headtube and seatpost bore can be 3D machined close to tolerance then when the frames assembled they will just ream finish to size like a normal frame.

Take a look at 3D machining on YouTube, we use lots of it at work for all sorts of shapes.
  • + 1
 @Racer951: They actually say in the comments that they are using 5 axis not 3 axis.
  • + 2
 @dualsuspensiondave: I'm sure they cnc the links on a 5 axis to save multiple ops but the frame is a 3 axis part if desired, and the half machined frame on their Instagram was machined 3 axis.

If they are actually using 5 for the frame itself I wouldn't want the bill for the machine, table / travel size would be huge - especially as it isn't required.

Am I talking out of my ass? or is CNC machining more than a small part of my job (e.g. I program, run, purchase the things for multiple job types, specialising in 3D machining aluminium 3 axis parts)
  • + 1
 @Racer951: Read it for yourself in the comments. I'm merely regurgitating what pole bicycles said in the comments above.
  • + 1
 @Racer951: Can you send some links on this?
  • + 0
 No 26"? TFO
  • - 2
 If you don't give me one of these frames I am going to kill myself.
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