Pole Bicycles Announces New CNC-Machined 'Machine' - Press Release
PRESS RELEASE Pole Bicycles: 24/11/17
Pole Machine
There is a new Pole coming and it will redefine how a frame is manufactured, the frame will be robotically CNC machined. A presale campaign will start on Black Friday 24.11.2017. The new frame will be called Machine and will be 100% made in Finland. The machining time is confidential but we can confidently say that we will mass produce the frames early next year onward from our secret factory in Finland. We will bond the frame pieces together in Jyväskylä and quality control the process under our very own roof.
The Machine is a cutting edge 29" superbike which can be used as the one bike for everything. The travel on the bike is 180mm front and 160mm rear. The frame geometry follows Pole's notoriously long and slack geometry with steep seat tube for better climbing. On our tests, the Machine was even easier to ride than the EVOLINK's.
Machine Details
• 7075 T6 aluminium machined frame
• Travel: R - 160mm / F - 180mm (recommended)
• EvoLink Suspension
• 29" wheels
• 3x water bottle mounts
• Made in Finland
• Available to order 24/11/17
• www.polebicycles.com
• 7075 T6 aluminium machined frame
• Travel: R - 160mm / F - 180mm (recommended)
• EvoLink Suspension
• 29" wheels
• 3x water bottle mounts
• Made in Finland
• Available to order 24/11/17
• www.polebicycles.com
We will machine the whole frame and mass produce it ourselves.
The Machine is 100% a Pole design just like our other frames. The head of design, Leo Kokkonen (Who is also the inventor behind Huck Norris) is responsible for the engineering and design, from the kinematics to the last slice of machining. The prototype frame and links are machined from 7075 T6 billets with titanium axles. The front and the rear triangles are made of three parts that are bonded together with glue, similar methods are being used in car and airplane industries.
So what's better with the Machine?
Everything! The bike is lighter, stronger and faster. Honestly! We know it's the same bs as everyone else is claiming but we can actually back it up. The Pole EVOLINK is probably the fastest bike on the planet at the moment. Enduro mountain bike magazine made a speed test among the best bikes in the world. We sent our stock bike (4800€) to compete with 10 000€ factory tuned world champion bikes and we were second fastest and missed out on the top spot by hundreds of a second.
7075 T6 aluminium is 1,7 times stronger than conventional bike alloy 6061 T6. This makes it possible to manufacture the frame to be much lighter than normal aluminium bikes. Machining from high-quality billets that are also used in the aerospace industry means a superior material is used. The heat treatment is also more consistent than heat treating the frames in an oven.
With the machining processes, we can control the wall thickness where ever we want, instead of having a "ballpark" thickness like with hydroforming. If we compare the process to carbon, it's faster, cleaner and we think it's a more humane way of making bikes. Also, we can be sure how much stiffness we have in each place instead of having rough calculations and assumptions as it is with carbon. Our bikes are safe to use and you can actually see the possible frame damage with the naked eye. When it comes to carbon frames, you need to ultrasound the frame if you want to be sure it's OK.
 | From a solid block of tool aluminium, machined into a superbike that is the ultimate expression of mountain biking. The excitement, the speed, the most striking experience as a rider. |
We don't need paint!
Most bike frames need paint because the production finishing is not very appealing. The machined frame is left as it is to reveal the exclusive process. The best feature of this is that the frame is not prone to scratches and wear. The 7075 surface is hard and the machined surface camouflages the possibility scratches and wear. The oxidation process of the frame over time will produce a classy patine. Rather than having a worn out bike you will have a machine with charisma. We may introduce colours in the future but the raw finish is what we really like at the moment.
Special features
Asymmetric shock - The Machine features an asymmetric shock to create more seat tube insert length, as the dropper posts are getting longer.
External cable routing - The frame has only external cable routing to keep things more simple. The top and down tubes are shaped so that the cables are hidden in plain sight. You can still use Stealth dropper posts which will feed through a very accessible port on the seat tube.
Three bottle mounts - It's possible to fit three bottles on the frame. Two inside and one the outside of the front triangle. It's possible to store more stuff on the bike rather than using a backpack.
Low standover - We rotated the shock 90 degrees and have created even more standover space than on our EVOLINK which is already one of the lowest on the market.
Super clearance - It's possible to run a 3" tire on the back. Mud clogs with the standard 2.35" tires will be a thing of the past.
| The Machine has been the dream of Leo, he has designed a cutting edge bike imagined and inspired by nature, his surroundings and fundamentally his goal to create the fastest, most striking bike ever. |
What next?
We have lots more exciting projects coming up. Next, we are going to produce a 200mm travel DH bike that will be raced at the UCI DH World Cup piloted by Isak Leivsson from Norway. After that, we'll make a light trail / XC bike with 140mm travel and finally, we will go electric with an electrically assisted superbike. Also, we will release an updated version of our Taival hardtail and a dirt jump bike Tomu. Visit www.polebicycles.com for more.
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I'd be more interested in hearing about how they are going to limit the amount of machine time and energy consumption.
I think they've opened themselves to some scrutiny in terms of their environmental credentials, although they are at least trying to lead by example, which I applaud muchly, even if they are a very minor player it's a well intention-ed step in the right direction
Recycling carbon will be almost impossible for a while. The cross linking thermoset matrix the industry currently uses is extremely difficult to separate from the fibers. There are processes that burn the matrix from the fiber, or dissolve it using a chemical process, but neither of these are 100% successful and returning a virgin quality fiber that can be reused in new products. Until the industry can use a thermoplastic matrix that can be heated and removed from the fibers, recycling carbon will never be feasible on large scale.
Sure there are inefficiencies in this process, just like every other process. But almost any other material is better than carbon when it comes to environmental consciousness for bicycles. It's a different story for aircraft, given that the lower weight air craft use less fuel. But for a purely leisure product, there isn't really a good reason to use carbon. Unfortunately the bike industry is pushing it down people's throat regardless of whether or not it's actually better for the consumer.
And there is a big market for recycling metal, specially aluminum, but not for carbon fiber... It's kind safe to say they will sell the shaving and scraps to make some extra money.
Carbon is incredibly energy intensive to produce. Last time I did any research, it had about 3x the embodied energy compared to aluminum.
Do you have any proof or studies showing carbon fiber is worse that lithium batteries?
Aluminum frames are hand welded. Almost no machines are used in the assembly/welding of a bicycle (head tubes, BB shells, drop outs, etc... are obviously machined, forged, or turned on their respective machine), whether that be aluminum or carbon. There could possibly be a few more jobs involved with hand laying a composite bicycle frame, but the additional energy usage (huge electric ovens to cure the epoxy, with production rates as low as 1 frame per day) are massive compared to aluminum. But this is mixing worker's rights into a discussion of environmental impact...
Don't get me wrong, I hate e-mtb on so many levels. But carbon is comparably bad. The only place e-bikes belong is as a car supplement and/or replacement where they can actually do some good.
What is it?
Is it biodegradable?
Can the aluminium with glue on it be recycled?
More information, please, Pole!
And the thing with the batteries of the E-Bikes is interesting as well.
I would apreciate it very much if Pole finds good ways to realize and improve those things.
@core559 - just because carbon fiber is much harder to recycle doesn’t convince me a bit about greenery of this whole enterprise. If they can present me whole life cycle analysis of their stuff against Antidotes, Treks or unnos cf producrion I call it self righteous bullshit
Interesting video about carbon recycling for anyone who cares.
It looks like they are at it again: making ridiculous claims without one ounce of documentation to support them.
We use robots instead of humans. That's something that we value more. "Creating jobs" is politic bs. Creating and meaningful jobs is the future. I teach my son to design, not to work in a factory.
We try to do our best. I think that if you look Finland (Like Sweden, where you live currently) in any standard, we do pretty good compared to the rest of the world. I don't get your accusations because Finland is doing good in education, environment, corruption, technology and happiness standards. What are the odds that we here at Pole invented a scheme that we try to sell to the rest of the world? In no offense, I think you need to explain your "self righteous bullshit" a bit more clearly.
*this was just an irony, I have a huge respect for people which work very hard for their living.
You bash carbon with focusing solely on the idea of recycling which in the bigger picture is just drowning in the ocean of other processes necessary to manufacture a bicycle and all it's parts, make it end up in your bike stand and then be ridden in the mountains, finally getting thrown to the garbage piece by piece.
As for someone who observed a renovation of a 4000sqm office building, where everything has been stripped and demolished, windows, doors, partition walls, installations, lighting, I really could not care as much for bicycles. I watched tons of material that was still functional offices to be demolished and driven away to make room for "fresh" ecological stuff. Building will get gold bream certificate in two years. And that's one of many buildings in this city. I just calculated amount of garbage generated by 140 house holds in housing project we are drawing. 80sqm room filled with trash cans. Emptied every week. Bicyles... and what bicycles are we talking about some 0.1% of all bicycles. Look at this terrible crap sold in supermarkets, what shit is commuting to work every day. E-bikes. They are now subsidized in our green Scandinavia. E-bikes - subsidized, regular bikes, not. Some idiots thought that if they pay you 20% of value of your e-bike you will stop driving your car, you'll just head out into the wind and rain in hilly terrain with smile on your face, while majority of bike commuters in the city do it because they cover short distance and it is freaking convenient for them. Not because they care for Polar Bears. That's Scandinavia, chose a tiny bit of your activity, make it "as green as possible" that is convenient for you and brag about it, while you do everything else just like everyone else, everywhere else. Volvo and Ikea are perfect examples.
I understand that you are trying to be a good guy. I bet the same is true for the engineer at Specialized or Trek. I think I understand why you do it, I'm happy for you that you can create a product that you stand behind. good luck with your business. But from my stand point I don't buy a single argument of yours, at least not in that tone while it seems you just figured out it is too hard for your small company to manage tricky manufacture of carbon frames in Asia. Quality control in particular. You'd have to sit there yourself or find someone trusted that is eager to do it. It seems it led to a good thing though.
@WAKIdesigns: do you think they don't honestly have any positive intentions and haven't genuinely attempted to try and back these up? Nothing's perfect, but even intangible positive messages are worth something - just look at how powerful negative messages can be in politics (backed up by nothing). Maybe I'm naive enough to think that the Finns and other Scandinavians are driven by motivations other countries would do well to aspire to.
What a noble mindset you have..
UNNO or Antidote bikes or BTR do their best to minimize their impact on environment while making bikes. Do you see them talking down to people? No, Cowards!!! Fkng cowards!!! - you see that's the mentality that led you to write your post.
And BTW, what happens with carbon and alu and steel bike production is China is everyone's fault due to driving down the prices. So please... have you never bought a cheap bike? Like I just bought a Meta HT 20 for my daughter? Aren't you writing from a computer made in Asia? Enjoying all this exchange of information thanks to the manufacture that often disregards environment?
You can talk about environmentalism just make sure you include yourself as a problem in it. And that excludes possibility to talk down to people since you sit ears deep in shit you made and which benefits you enjoy. I personally don't see it as shit. I'm handling my guilt quite well.
f*ck ideals... let's go carbon again!
Glad my YT Capra is fully loaded at 4500 euro... oh they have discount? Make it 4000 euro then
For the record. At my household there is one carbon frame and 6 aluminium ones. Now if world is black and white... tell me... is it one carbon bike too many? Or am I generally a good guy for leaning more towards aluminium? Or should i be more eco if I owned 2 carbon bikes instead of 6 other ones. Or do I just have too many bikes? Now what if I told you that 4 of them belong to two of my kids and one to my wife?
Relativity takes intellect and energy to manage. Hence playing teams is easy and takes little computing power. Again, congrats to Pole for the great bike with cool geometry and amazing looks, genuinely unique character
You on the other hand, seem like a person who is not happy with anything someone else does, and seem to get some weird satisfation from bashing others.
I wish Pole success, even if i can't afford the Machine for now. It's an awesome consept!
It's not his fault, he's from Poland. Decades of Communism in conjunction with catholic mentality have shaped our nation and it requires many generations to overcome such attitude.
@Keit - you sound like Sean Connery peeing on mouth of a peasant.
why worry? Only a lucky few will be able to pay the space flight to Alpha Centauri in a couple of centuries, where a brand new Earth is waiting to be f*cked up again. Even God can't save us. So relax and enjoy this moment. Pollute as much as you can. f*ck the future.
Aluminum is not much better ... www.survivalinternational.org/tribes/dongria
Here's a map where you can see how countries produce their electricity:
www.electricitymap.org/?wind=false&solar=false&page=map
PS. "It's like when someone tells me there all green and shit and want to own a Tesla." No. It's not like that even when you live in Poland.
" The Pole is probably the fastest bike on the planet..."
"The frame is not prone to scratches and wear"
Best bit was when they admitted their lack of understanding of carbon lay up meant they couldn´t accurately determine where they could achieve stiffness. So the new manufacturing technique is a solution to their problems - not a step forward as such.
I have no problem with any company spouting BS, they all do it. Just dont expect me to believe the spin about this being better, faster, stronger, lighter and done for my benefit. Dont insult riders (and potential customers) intelligence.
Building the frame in Finland out of aluminium is probably one of the best ways to build a bicycle (for a Company based in Finnland).
your article with Pinkbike about why not carbon made me angry, Pinbkbikes poll made me even angrier, it distorted reality of bicycle manufacture on the whole, made dumb people even dumber, and it is them doing most damage, your marketing may suck, maybe lots of stuff got misinterpreted as it happens in online shitstorms, but I still love your bikes and wouldn't mind to own one. I wish to congratulate you on a truly unique and spectacular bike.
I was just quoted $11.49/lb for some 7075 rectangular material with certs (for traceability, defense industry work). Which is way, way, way too much, obviously, the supplier thinks it is up to me to send his kid to Stanford, plus a vacation in Tahiti for him, but that's a whole 'nother can of beans. Anyway, I'm thinking I can get it for $6/lb somewhere else. Now, I'm not going to get the amount of chips out of my parts that the Pole boys are getting, and my eyeball estimate is that the blank piece they started with is about 3 inches X 24 X 24, which is about 174lbs, I'm guessing that they generate about 150 lbs of chips roughing it out, then a bit more each successive operation, and I'm not sure about how much the finished frame will weigh, but they won't get every ounce of chip weight out of the scrap. So maybe 155 lbs of chips. Maybe. We have a guy that drops a bin and picks it up when full. About 6 X 6 X 6. We used to do alright on the scrap, paid for barbeques for the crew and whatnot, we'd get $2000, $2200 for a full bin. Gradually went down, down, down. The recycle middlemen seems to have all become dirtbags, the last time, they tried to bill us, "the chips were oily". No different from the previous 20 times they got them. Anyway, it seems like they want to pay about $.60 cents per pound now, almost not worth the effort. The recycling isn't the cash cow it used to be.
I think some of you guys have got a different idea about things here than I do. I went to CNC, not to reduce my footprint, not to put anyone out of work, not to get away from dirtier processes (but it actually did clean things up), but to tighten up the tolerances, to get more control over the processes. And......TO MAKE MONEY.
If Pole makes a good product, at a competitive price, they really don't need to blow smoke up anyone's butt about saving the earth.
Must have missed it..usd$ frame?
Only happy when being praised and given loads of props it seems.
I can see your point exactly. People seem to look down on the manufacturing........arts. Younger people are not coming into the trades like they used to, and there is going to be a shortage of skilled craftsmen in the coming years. I've gone from pushing a broom, to making ANYTHING on a manual machine, to welding, to 3-axis CNC, 5-axis CNC, tool and die maker, etc. It takes 15 minutes to find a well paying job, and there aren’t too many jobs that can make a claim like that. Who builds the fixtures for those set-ups for the frame? They gotta be right, the finished product depends on it, the machine isn't going to build the fixtures itself.
And Pole mentioned getting their parts offshore (Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Pakistan, India, etc.). Sorry, but I don't go there, too many variables, from material substitutions, to business scruples, to sub-standard human rights for workers. Yeah, it's hard to compete with $8/day for labor vs $300+ with benefits for an American Journeyman, but I have to draw the line somewhere.
Now, unfortunately, they double up claiming to produce an aluminum frame that somehow is "lighter, stronger and faster. Honestly!" One would think it is a joke, but instead they are serious. They do not report any data, not even a frame weight ... truly embarrassing, especially considering that there are literally dozens other manufacturers building aluminum frames ...
What I am trying to say here. It is all complicated and relative, but the common theme is: WANT TO BE A GOOD GUY - INVEST IN A QUALITY PRODUCT. POSSIBLY MADE NEAR YOU.
@duzzi: why do you think carbon is the clear winner? and weight is not the be all and end all. There are lots of articles around on both subjects relating to bikes.
The right geo/stiffness/ flex and balance with suspension are key.
I dont see how lighter, faster, stronger is a joke? Isnt that what all manufacturers claim of their new bike? Isnt that the point of progress?
I think it is naive or deceitful to claim these as eco friendly bikes. The amount of energy needed to make aluminum is harmful to the environment. Machining from billets makes this significantly worse. While geo or hydro sourced energy seems to solve that issue to a casual observer, it actually doesn’t. It’s the same problem posed by ethanol fuel in America. Yeah, it is theoretically better than burning petroleum products. But in the real world it displaces food crops to South America. So the Amazon is being deforested to grow food because american famers are using their land to grow corn for ethanol.
It’s the same for clean energy used to make aluminum. Building a bike with a massively energy inefficient method is not eco friendly. It simply displaces other consumers to aluminum suppliers without clean energy.
Clean energy is good! Using it up for innefiencent production cannot be called clean though.
With that said. I don’t base my buying criteria on that and would have no problem buying this bike. Rather, just calling attention to the fact that this bike isn’t less polluting than carbon.
So in just a few months, the carbon frame was dumped due to environmental concerns and the technology not only to develop, but also manufacture this frame (even if just prototype) was developed.
I LOVE the work put into the development of this bike and it merits accolades, but the apparent marketing ploy to promote this bike is a bit questionable.
Carbon frame is a clear winner if we look at the standard fatigue tests with standard frames. We use 7075 T6 aluminium and we can make internal shapes as well. Nobody seems to test the impacts for carbon. Please don't link me the Pinkbike story where they beat the SC carbon frame to the corner. That's not a proper test what happens when you crash with the bike. Whn you crash on a bike there's more mass and speed behind the blow than just 1,2kg of carbon frame and a swing with arms. Put 15kg to the head tube and make the same test with the carbon frame. Also you could get a knife and stab your carbon frame with it. I can show any time how the Machine handle the stabbing. Also I could give the carbon frame a hammer test and same test to our Machine.
Can anyone answere me this question: If carbon is so superior material on fatigue and strength, why does most of the companies make the chainstays from aluminium? The used to make them from carbon. My answer is that bikes are more complex than most engineers think.
There has been talk by the likes of Dave Weagle about "tuning" carbon fiber to flex in a specific direction more than another direction. While this is entirely possible, it is rarely done in the bike industry. Carbon is largely treated as a standard isotropic engineering material, just like aluminum or steel. Then after the engineer designs the 3D cad model of the frame, the factory is left to design the lay up schedule. Which usually consists of adding 0/90 and +/-45 woven prepreg until strength requirements are met.
@polebicycles Yes, and it's cost. Carbon, if engineered correctly by someone that actually understands what they're doing, is always a far superior product. For such a complex composite part, the cost of an aluminum chain stay can be as little as 1/3-1/4 the cost of the carbon equivalent. But you already know this...
I 100% approve of what you're doing by pushing alloy frames in an industry that doesn't need the additional environmental impact, but don't act like carbon isn't an amazing material. It IS the future (in other industries), and you can't deny that.
The downside is that it can't be welded... hence the CNC machine. It will look extremely clean with no weld marks, and you could potentially make a couple of new bikes from the shavings. The fact that you even pulled this off into a functional bicycle is absolutely amazing.
7075 T6 is 1,8 times harder than conventional 6061 T6 aluminium. In other words.ALMOST twice as hard. The next level is when we combine the 7075 T6 with internal ribs and wall thickness changes plus the new geometry and suspension layout.
I really think that if someone thinks that the carbon is way to go, they should go for it. We are just happy if people ride mountain bikes. In the end we like when we see more bikes rather than cut forests for electric golf carts.
And for those that don't understand why tensile (pulling) strength is relevant, an isotropic material has identical properties in both compression and tension, assuming buckling does not occur. so a 1" diameter aluminum rod that is twice as strong in tension, is also twice as strong in compression. It's the easiest way engineers can quantify the general yield strength of a material in a way that is not geometry dependent.
@polebicycles - you are not in position to ask a question why aren’t chainstays of so many frames made of carbon.
Next week I will post an interview I did with Cesar Rojo, you can all learn something. And after all I can easily pull out a card that all these super bikes are overdeveloped since Aaron Gwin can win on Canyon and Phil Atwill can ride DH course on a DJ hardtail faster than me and Leo on his longest bike. So chill out because there is no hiding that this bike like many other are MTB equivalents of Prada bags with diamonds. Let’s assume Pole has the BEST geo and the BEST structure, does it have the best suspension system? How much do you test your frames with various shocks? Do you custom tune them yourselves, or just order something something firm side from Fox? Antidote works closely with Andreani Group workshop/Öhlins distributor that aside of moto and automotive prepares stuff for Dakar. Unno works with the state of art testing equipment. They work with moto GP and F1. Where’s Pole’s environment? Best best best? Most Advanced? Dunning Kruger Effect?
Tone it down damn it. BTR doesn’t shove “Bests” in peoples mouths... whatever enjoy your disease of betterness. Haven’t experienced such arrogance from an industry person since I met JC from Sram. It’s like watching Dragons den. BTW a man named Max said there’s a decent aerospace company in Finland working with high end composites, that was eager to help him with his carbon bike project
"Don't think, it complicates things. Just feel, and if it feels like home then follow its path." R.M. Drake.
You're way overdue for those psychedelics you're homing in on.
i think that the suspension is the whole bike all together. Suspension is not a separate thing from the frame stiffness or the geometry. For dampers, we work with SRAM's and Fox's engineers. For us it's all about performance and the timed runs are the key to the performance. I've tried to push the media to make more those speed tests that Enduromag made one month ago. We test our bikes against the others as well because our philosophy is all about performance. At the moment our benchmark is the EVOLINK 140. When we beat that, we have the world's fastest bike.
About the F1 - For example: Tommi Mäkinen builds the world champion WRC cars for Toyota Gazoo racing just ten kilometers from our office. Would you stop the rant if I told that I've been working for them? I don't think so because it's a different sport from mountain bikes although it's more closer than F1.
"Max said there’s a decent aerospace company in Finland" I know there are companies in Finland. I've visited them when I was still interested in carbon. There is two companies are just one hour ride from our office. There's also a company that produces wood fiber 100m from our office.
I think it's all said here. Too much name dropping
I'll continue my work now. Peace!
@WAKIdesigns: Oh please, Aaron rides a YT. Canyon, pffft - what a blasphemy!
Anyone still worrying about the environmental impact of high end bicycle production? E-bikes? These guys won't even need atmosphere...
www.outsideonline.com/2261721/dirty-secret-hiding-your-high-end-mountain-bike
That’s about the problem of recycling of CF products vs 99.999999999% of remaining bike stuff that doesn’t even get downcycled. And of all bike things made from carbon fibre you attack the only thing that makes sense to use this material for: the frame. While there are idiotic applications like rims, crank arms, headset spacers, brake levers, handlebars, stems, seatposts, cassette spiders, brake rotors, FSR like chainstays and what not. I am surprised nobody made carbon derailleur hangers yet.
Out of all things if there is a sensible use of carboon fibre composites in cycling, it is the front triangle of a frame.
www.reuters.com/article/us-toray-scandal/japan-inc-scandals-widen-as-toray-admits-cheating-idUSKBN1DS05A
@migkab: I am affraid you are just projecting your own values mixed with unviersal values (like it is naughty to show off) on the whole thing now. Yes many people buy high end bicycles and sell them afterwards quickly, and carbon bikes are undoubtedly the hallmark of highend-ness - which off course is more often misguided than not. But out of many people I know I could pick max 3 snobs, most of owners of CF bikes just like nice things. Anyways, those snobbish bikes don't end up in a land fill as soon as the owner gets bored of them. They get sold. Someone buys them and rides them, sells them and them someone else buys them (some call themselves environmentalists by doing this), and this cycle is much more likely to go on for longer than in case of aluminium frame because of fatigue life. If we generalize it this way, which is stupid since a frame from one maker can differ a lot from a frame from another one. Regardless of material. But by average, carbon version of a particular frame will outlive it's aluminium brother. And the idea that aluminium frames get recycled after they crack, is a truly naive one. even in Scandinavia a lot of alloys end up in incinerators and in a dump.
Metal is worth money. I've been also working for a company that produces waste management systems and equipement and I know that the waste managers are keen on metal because you get good money from it. Waste is money and the waste management is a business. It would be stupid to put metals to landfill because it takes at least double the energy to make the metals from ore. It's much easier to screen the metals off the general waste. Bicycles are huge compared to tin cans. It's insane to claim that bicycles are not being recycled in a modern country.
Here's an example how the waste is managed in USA 2010 www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjNv_iTsXn8
"and this cycle is much more likely to go on for longer than in case of aluminium frame because of fatigue life" Source please. This is your subjective view. I've seen many carbon frames snap crack an pop because of many different reasons. Last time I saw a carbon frame fail was when my friend collapsed on top of his bike. Top tube has a soft spot now. I've seen many carbon chainstays to break. There are many cases that doesn't even go to the fatigue life end on carbon frames. Nobody knows the fact of the frame lifespan if you can't find a research that has at least some sort of data collected.
In my opinion it would be passible to make durable frame, even by weldable aluminum alloys, which would survive even over 20 years without any problems.
Especially when you can use T6 treatment after welding and technologies like hydroforming to put welds in not responsible places.
Shoe on the downhill frame are not designe to be durable but to look nice.
They have wrong shapes of profiles, or even shape of profiles path.
Đây là sự phân cách tuyệt đối siêu hợp nhất:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/6146136
Some companies know how to make durable frames, but they will do one to weak point to make it crack after waranty.
For example I had 3 DEMO in my life, all 3 craced in chain stay becuse Specialized made a point to make it crack after 2 year of riding.
On these frames I had many crashes like this:
www.pinkbike.com/video/235982
I can not say how many times my frame hit the tree.
But after 2 years of riding in the chainstey was broken.
That becaus there is a wrong designet to get crack not because fatigue of aluminum is too low.
Everyone who has even a small knowledge in construction calculates the construction of this super stupid, and wrong shape:
www.pinkbike.com/photo/14796223
Even the roof skeleton of a hundred-year-old bus station is better.
Costs of produce of aluminum frame are much lower.
Also CO2 and most of metal trash are much safer for enviroment than polymer matrix composites.
Another problem with CFK is super low resistance for impact.
Small inpact can start delamination proces which can be dangerus.
downhill24.bike/catching-up-with-cesar-rojo
And as soon as possible!
@pakleni
Your wives and 2 poles, sounds like a good recipe for happiness.
Sometimes on a group rides I feel like I have to apologise because I don't ride a pair of carbon wheels.
I know Poles are long (hurrhurr) but it only looks like space for two 600ml bottles on the top of the down tube.
Bike companies keep putting bottles underneath the down tube, but it's literally the worst place to have a bottle.
Our ebike will be designed mainly to replace the need for the uplift. Most of the motor manufacturers have designed the motors for everyone. Our motor will be designed to a group that want to ride mainly downhills but lack the time to train that much (fe. moms and dads who shred). This makes it possible to access different trails.
When I go shuttling in fe. Italy or Spain it always makes me think that if we had ebikes we could do almost the same amount of vertical by just one uplift and then work ourselves down from the mountain by choosing the trails differently and making some climbs between the downhill trails. -Leo
So E-bikes eco? No not really...
Something just occurred to me; if every rider of the 15-20 or so that would usually ride one uplift van got an e-bike, that's 15-20 more powered vehicles with all of the associated energy production, batteries, waste, etc involved instead of one.
So surely we should focus on making the motor industry manufacture more efficient vans instead?
I don't think Pole is the company that people come to buy an ebike that would fill your argument. I agree at some level to your reasoning but it's not as black and white how you present it. I personally train hard (I can challenge you any time for a Enduro or a downhill)
And last. We are not searching for the ultimate eco-friendliness because then we all should just quit riding bikes and basically not to live in the first place. We have our standards to live by which might change over time because the development of things is inevitable. Pole is a personal project for me. I engineer our bikes, I 3D model the bikes, I design them, I ride them and I market them. Hell, I even shot the video, the photos and rendered the visuals to this press release personally. I also typed the text. There's no conspiracy here. The company breathes my personal philosophy as long as it can. It's not that I would need to do it. I just want to do it.
-Leo
Electric cars can, emission wise, easily be more ecological than petrol cars. That's because burning of the fuel adds up to about 87 % of life cycle emissions so the production phase is virtually of no consequence. So let's look at uplifts. Most lifts (in Europe at least) are electric, and because they are located in the mountains the electricity mix is usually very good due to hydropower. So you can't significantly even out emissions there.
As for shuttling, distances are really short, but yes, an ebike would still lead to less greenhouse gas emissions. Even a motorbike would lead to less emissions. But because of those really short distances, it would never be as significant as let's say driving an electric car for everyday use. You have to use it for large distances (and/or many years) to fully even out emissions of the battery (and motor etc.) production.
But atmospheric impacts are not the big problem with Lithium. In that respect it is comparable to many other metals (Aluminium is worse when it is a primary raw material!).
Hydrological and morphological impacts are in contrast huge. The main production countries are Australia, Chile and Argentina (91 %). South american production is located in brine lakes, most of them are in the driest places of South America. The production uses enormous amounts of water which can destabilize local ecospheres and groundwater flow. Australias mines are huge opencast pits, which aren't helping in these regards and things like contaminating groundwater either. The added market pressure will force new players like Bolivia into the global market and will force countries like China to up their production capacities, so you can assume ecological impacts will worsen because of underdeveloped or non-caring countries in the near future.
Another big problem is the end of life phase. Efficient recycling is possible but at the same time not economical. Batteries are therefore recycled soley for other ingredients and Lithium effectively dissipates for most parts. Additionally, an effective collection of used Lithium batteries is still missing.
And that's just the Lithium part. When you take rare earth metals from electric motors and other materials for the control systems into account, it won't get better. Not really good for a thing that is otherwise the most efficient machine on this planet. Takes pretty much all of that away.
And if you think about it from a more societal perspective it's really not good either. For most parts you really just don't need it. Some guys really can't ride otherwise due to health issues but I am certain that's a minority. Yeah it would make your life easier, just like a new hightech smartphone maybe. But for which price? E(mountain)bikes aren't marketed for disabled people but also for fit guys with a slogan like "more is better". Ebikes are a thing from the bike industry for maximising growth and simultaneously minimizing product life cycles which is basically the worst thing for your environmental impact possible.
"Ebikes are a thing from the bike industry for maximising growth and simultaneously minimizing product life cycles which is basically the worst thing for your environmental impact possible."It's like that but Pole doesn't represent "the industry". Bikes are toys. So are motorbikes and so on. I still think that if someone wants to get a toy that makes you climb the local hill is better than flying to somewhere else. The biggest enemy to people is the climate change. The greenhouse gasses that prevent the heat to escape back to space. It's better not to put more carbon dioxide to our atmosphere.
As to your reply about MTB skill/fitness ambassaduership well, since you commited to e-bikes to ride the cash wave I don’t expect you to promote an actual lower impact of our hobby. I could simply use your arguments about hobby and having fun to carbon frames. Your environmental stance is incoherent, please don’t criticize other bike makers on that field again. For example BTR or Kingdom or Hope or BOS are clean in that respect. Again, I hope you will use “clean” batteries
I can see a meme: criticizes carbon, makes e-bikes. As simple as that.
Also, emtbs won't substitute cars or motorbikes in any significant way. So you do increase emissions most of the time.
Lastly, you can't weigh one environmental impact (like greenhouse gas emissions) more than another. That is beyond any scientific or rational reasoning, although there is an ongoing debate about this... mostly it differs who these impacts are affecting. Emissions for example affect everyone, but equally?
@WAKIdesigns : Yes, personal transport got out of hand massively. But you have to keep in mind that electric motors can contribute to using less energy, because they are significantly more efficient. More than 50 % more efficient than a diesel engine. Electricity production is still one of the biggest problems though, but there are ideas of integrating car batteries into a smart grid for energy storage. I think they will be one piece of the puzzle for more efficient transport. Other solutions like fossil fuels or even hydrogen are not efficient enough.
Also an ebike is 25kg used to move a full grown human. A car is about 1200 or more kg to move the same human weight. Total waste of resources.
This. More* green*. Double asterisk.
1. They use human effort as well as electric power
2. Compared to any other motorised vehicles, they're light as hell. They're pretty much the only motorised vehicle typically lighter than the pilot.
Not many people are going to commute 20km each way to work completely under their own power, or ride that far to the trailhead, but if you cut the effort/time required to do that in half, then all of a sudden you do make it a lot more plausible. And that's much greener than driving.
If an ebike on the other hand does not lead to more bike-time from the user, it has a negative environmental impact. It has no chance to amortize it's impact.
Back to shuttling: you won't shuttle that often like commuting. And still, who will shuttle right from his doorstep? Most people are not that lucky and still have to get to the trailhead and want to shuttle something more than just a few meters of vertical. And that still means using the car to get to the trail. Even if it would be rideable by bike, limited range will keep riders from doing that. And the drive to the trail will be outweighing the shuttling distance most of the time. So I think the shuttle argument doesn't hold up to environmental concerns.
@BenPea: By ever definition of the term ice age, we currently are still in one. If you mean glacial periods, we currently are still in one of those, too. And if oscillation stays the same (like it did for the last one million years) we will be for another 80000 years.
And finally, some innovation!! A radically new way of manufacturing frames, that's a bit better than boost don't you think?
Love this news
Doesn't take anything away from the product, but made me laugh!
The first look article ( www.pinkbike.com/news/pyga-stage-max-eurobike-2015.html ) got quite a bit of excitement. Been hoping for a full review of this bike (with decent tyres on) since, to find pinkbike's opinion of my bike!
Not sure I'm sold on too many of those ideas (maybe lessons learnt in the nineties), but sure it's interesting!
"...varies in both profile and thickness almost as smoothly as carbon does " Carbon is very inaccurate compared to machining as you compress it with a bag. I would say that both are accurate but the machining is more accurate
"Well done @polebicycles , that is some progress right there." Thank you! Without producing the concentric link, we would not be here. We learned a lot about suspension and anti-squat from the concentric link. Without making it the current bikes would not be this fast.
With regards to the profile variation, I was referring to the shape of the frame and the fact that you can basically thicken carbon massively in certain areas and thin it out where necessary without sudden changes in geometry creating stress risers, which obviously you guys can achieve very well too - but is much harder to do with a conventional welded tubular metal frame.
Glad to see you guys are moving forwards like this. I actually don't think this particular bike is my cup of tea personally (though I could be wrong, haven't ridden it) but from a tech point of view it looks sick.
- 100% "made" in Finland
- confidential machining time
- "secret" factory
- bonding pieces together in Finland
Devinci is labeled "made in Canada" because they perform a certain amount of assembly and finishing/painting in Canada, but all their carbon stuff is actually manufactured overseas. Is this bike truly 100% manufactured in Finland, or is the secrecy due to it only being assembled/finished in Finland?
Either way though, it is a beautiful bike. So beautiful in fact that the anti-ebike crowd has glossed over that last paragraph in the press release.
And one more thing: how likely we would lie about this anyway?
Good on you folks for committing to local production though. That's awesome and I wish you luck!
I'm curious about the machining and how it works, so I'm looking forward to your future posts about it.
photos.app.goo.gl/jcKHSrNDtnZMTgvS2
Here's an example of the machine capabilities that is producing our frames. This is not the machine but I think you'll get the point. youtu.be/RnIvhlKT7SY
...Wow...
Placing an order now (well, hoping you’ll upgrade my 158 Evolink pre-order to a Machine En)
@polebicycles: CNC machines don't cost the same everywhere, but it is close enough to not make much difference. The availability and choices of machines and equipment support from different suppliers is the main difference country to country. Some places don't support Hurcos, some places don't support DMG. It all varies. A skilled operator is just a button pusher and set up tech to some degree (depending on your process planning, this can go from a simple clamp to a long setup with extensive measurements in process) and it's the programmer (or machinist) and process engineer that cost $$$ and this is where it's make or break. It's also worthy to note that manufacturing practices vary from country to country (also shop to shop) and some places are just better at producing certain product due to experience and level of skill for employees. I commend you for doing it in house, I'm curious on your equipment. I've seen it all.
polebicycles.com/machine
Click on Geometry.
Now it even seems that neither of them is the final product, so i find it quite immoral to market and pre-sale a product with images and a video, that might not even represent the final product. On the very least, it should be made absolutely clear that the ones pre-ordering the bike might not get either one of the bike frames shown in this article / their website. If someone is to throw 3500 euros or so at them, they should the very least know and see what they will be getting with the money - instead of a raw prototype and (what seems like) an idealistic 3d-rendered picture of the bike.
I am not being overly aggressive about their product, i work as a creative in advertising agency. So i know a thing or two about selling things to people - and we constantly face the issue about what is considered basically lying, what is immoral etc. Our every day client would get executed from using marketing assets that are so far from the truth - not to mention accepting pre-sales based on those. It just makes me generally disgusted that they are utilizing a strategy like this in trying not to only hype their product, but actually SELL their product!
As a proud Finn i would be more than glad to see Pole succeed in any way possible, but i just see a lot of dodgy shit with how this frame / bike is released - not to mention the wannabe-eco-backstory of their's (let's not even get into it really here). And looking at this thread, i am not the only one being skeptic here.
All in all, i think they should have just used all this to purely create hype. Selling bikes based on the information available here is just where i think they crossed the line. Even Leo himself said the final bike is basically not going to be either of the ones here, but something "more along the lines of the 3d picture".
Everyone who ordered the bike without knowing the outcome will get a frame that is exceptional piece of engineering and design from a company that has values over money.
@seccitaj: Lighten up. Don't be the jealous Finn.
Basically the prototype's performance is our reference point. It outperformed already our expectations so we are really excited to produce the next proto to see what happens when we drastically drop the weight of the frame. Does it perform as good or not... we'll see.
The part with the e-bikes; naaaah....
Also, where's the geometry chart?
If pole instead of machining from a square billet, actually sandcast(or other casting technique) the rough shapes of their frame halves, they would reduce the amount of used aluminium significantly. Instead of machining out every cavity, they would only need to refine the rough cast to the final machined product. Think in the way of a intake manifold on a car, or an aluminium top on an engine. The material they used to cast these sandcasts would have been from recycled aluminium. A simple process, and reduces waste drastically. I also have to mention that scandinavian countries are on the forefront of using clean energy. That´s why we produce an incredible amount of the aluminium parts used by the VAG concern here in Norway. Cheap, sustainable and good quality. I´ll also have to add that my master is within industrial design.
In case they are both presenting the final product, i would suggest you re-model the 3D-rendering to more closely match what the frame actually looks like, because if you will use that to market the final product (as shown in the photos), i'd say that's almost like actually shipping a different product alltogether
Oh and that crap about the "cutting edge" - honestly, save it for Giant or Trek. All this is just making me genuinely angry. I'd rather suck Mike Sinyards cock to get 50% discount on SWorks E29 coil than buy this. Sorry... when I see bikes from Sicklines, BTR or Swarf I know it's not cutting edge tech. But it's a well working bicycle made by cool honest guys standing behind it, all product - no bullshit, worth supporting, it's a "shopping experience" (I apologize to reduce it to this) that you will never be able to deliver with all this self righteous bullshit sprinkled with the most crude bicycle industry bollocks. If I want to hear about cutting edge bike tech I go to UNNO, guys who actually do work with stuff that is way over your head, F1, moto GP, automotive, motorcycle etc.
So for the sake of your business stop spreading marketing shit all over your otherwise good products.
I hate CF for 2 reasons. It seems to be virtually impossible to produce economically in anyplace but 3rd world shitholes, and the molds required and their cost make it a big compny only excercise and prevents innovation on sizing and geometry.
Pole's virtue signalling is in fact bullshit.
Enviro cred - you seem to be saying don't do anything and dont be proud of enviro conscientiousness. Wtf? Typical climate denier crap.
Ebile - id tend to agree but the rest if what you have said makes you look like a lunatic.
Just chill mate
Here's to aluminium and recycling...
I guess this could damage antidotes reputation so i understand your motivation.
Mostly VOC regs kill it before it gets off Phase 1. I see you get real defensive about EPA on other threads. You must be one of them. A more arrogant and obnoxious bunch of bureaucrats has never been created. Hopefully we can get an additional 30% cut in their budget next year which should shrink it down to it's essential size for actually upholding needed regs.
The main reason that labor is outsourced to other countries is because people do good work for less money, very simple.
This is leading to companies to run to asian countries to have virtually no safeguards. Not necessarily the right thing to do. Which is Pole's whole point, however their virtue signaling as marketing is very annoying.
We can do it in the US but the combination of labor rates and prohibitive regulations kill the whole idea unless you want to pay $4-5K for a CF frame that sells for $3K from some 3rd world shithole. I guess you would just as soon crap on your neighbor to get that $1500 discount then?
Why is Machine not available in custom sizing? Yes, like Robot Bike. Somehow, given the low production volume and production process it would seem that "perfect" sizing could be reached (no pun intended) with ease.
Given my previous criticism of your pricing for a bike made in Taiwan (compared to the Nicolai), this, far from being cheap, looks very decent for what it is. It also looks better then in those earlier teaser photos.
Also, it would be nice if you provided some linkage analysis diagrams (vs Evolink).
Here's the comparison to EVOLINK 140 facebook.com/polebicycles/posts/1390393477749999
Thanks. Given the much higher pedal kickback values compared to EVOLINK 140, my guess is that anti-squat characteristic of the system is improved (higher) versus EVOLINK 140.
No matter what people think about raw material recycling and environmental impact of one solution or another, we should admit what Pole did with this frame design is absolutely awesome. Knowing how hard it is to design a bike frame with complexe shape, I can not imagine the amount of CAD work to design both internal and external shape with the right thickness in each area, and this for multiple size frame.
I personally believe that carbon proliferate a lot this past years because this material allow complex frame design that people like, and is able to resist to high load staying stiff and lightweight.
Pole’s approach is really good and bring a strong alternative to carbon . Congratulations
I love where these bikes are going. Next to Geometron Pole is the only company that makes suitably sized bikes for XL riders. I'm in line for an Evolink but I'm trying to get my head around an upgrade to a Machine.
If corrosion is what you like as „patine with carrisma“ carry on
Looks fancy for a couple of weeks......
www.instagram.com/p/BZpJOT0hFed/?taken-by=lostbikes
Just saying.
Does not matter because DAM i like that bike.
Also the wheelbase is massive on this bike: 1305mm (51”) in a medium size.
Couple this with making it in the country of sale rather than in the far east it doesn't sound too bad for a nice-low volume setup like Pole.
Thanks for putting me right though, well done!
3" clearance? 29" frame"? YES!!
Bike looks great.
I guess they ran out of enthusiasm for deep hole drilling?
Top comment is about recycling.
See? MTB cares.
“Thanks man!”
“What is it?”
“It’s a Pole”
***snicker, snicker***
“You ride Pole!”
Probably not the stuff I used to eat in kindergarten.
I suppose they glue planes together without them falling out of the sky....
Probably just the adhesive. If they're claiming it's the same as aerospace, then it would likely be something in the Cytec Metlbond family, which are usually stronger than the aluminum they're bonded to.
mrblackmorescorner.blogspot.com.es/2017/11/pole-machine-2018.html
Or is this double crown only?
This is strange 2h ago it was 5600 for the complete build. Now its more.
Take a look at 3D machining on YouTube, we use lots of it at work for all sorts of shapes.
If they are actually using 5 for the frame itself I wouldn't want the bill for the machine, table / travel size would be huge - especially as it isn't required.
Am I talking out of my ass? or is CNC machining more than a small part of my job (e.g. I program, run, purchase the things for multiple job types, specialising in 3D machining aluminium 3 axis parts)