Pole Bicycles are best known for their early adoption of what's now considered 'modern' mountain bike geometry, and for using aluminum frame manufacturing techniques that are a departure from the norm. The company has been experiencing some growing pains over the last couple of years, and the move to a new factory combined with increased demand and component supply issues has led to long wait times and frustrated customers.
In order to help steer the ship back on course, a recent announcement states that Leo Kokkonen, the company founder, will take over as the head of Pole, while Lauri Hulkkonen will resign after three years as the CEO. The goal with the changes is to improve customer service, speed up the warranty process, and provide more accurate timelines as to when bikes and parts will be available.
The full press release can be found below.
PRESS RELEASE: Pole Bicycle CompanyThe CEO of Pole Bicycle Company Oy, Lauri Hulkkonen, resigns after three years of service. This significant change is for us to evolve as a company. We want our service and customer experience to meet better with our philosophy and values. Pole will continue as an owner-managed company, as Leo Kokkonen takes the leading role. The resignation process started in early August and takes effect starting today, 30th of October 2020.
Three grand years of progressWithin the past three years, we climbed up to the highest peak of our success so far. We introduced big things to the mountain biking community, gained fame for our products and made a big overall impact on the scene. As a company, to match the growth, we made considerable investments to fit the increased need. For example, we bought the machines and figured out a way to produce the CNC’d frames. The direction we were going was excellent in many ways. The latest significant change was moving to a new factory. Lauri was a big part of all these major decisions and changes and a key player implementing them. We thank him for these years.
Flatter organization – better serviceDespite the good things and the growth, we found ourselves from a spot where responsibilities were too centralized. This situation had paralyzed and plunged us into a shallow point of our story.
After careful analysis of us as a company, we decided to flatten the organization, sharing responsibilities based on expertise each of us has. Flattening the organization the way we are doing, makes us more agile than before. To prevent work overload from happening, we introduced new powerful tools for our operations. We also adopted new ways of handling tasks and internal communications. This change started in August and already shows results: We are catching up the customer service queue.
Logistics and production are also in change. During last year, we have struggled to get components like forks and brakes from suppliers. This problem goes both ways, and by working smarter in every sector, we can tackle many obstacles seen past times.
We are confident that this change in Pole as a company is good.
Apologies for the inconvenienceWe sincerely apologize to those who are upset because of our actions during this past year. We have identified two critical problems causing anger and intrust between the customer and us:
• Slow customer service especially in after-sales
• Failing Stamina frames
The reason for slow customer service is not in the customer service personnel. The problem lies in the management and the processes. The changes that we now make will work to solve these problems.
During the last 12 months, we have witnessed around ten cases of Stamina frames that have failed and gone public. Even while there are many happy Stamina riders, each break down has significantly lowered the trust towards our machined frames. We apologize for this but want to assure you that the production method works. We have assessed the failed frames carefully. The failures are not severe and we don’t see a reason for a recall. Our warranty continues to cover problems that are caused by manufacturing, and the process of handling after-sales support will be better.
One thing we are known for is that we do take action and make the change. Just look at how the industry has changed since we introduced our geometry and how the aluminium bikes have become relevant again. Now, it is time to take actions that initiate an internal change.
• Change the management and share the responsibilities to serve faster.
• Improve user instructions to prevent actions that may damage or weaken the frame permanently.
• Handle and close each currently open warranty case within the next ten weeks.
• Stick with the promised delivery time on bikes and frames, continually improving the process.
• Inform customers more frequently about the state of their orders.
We base the actions mentioned to the feedback received lately.
Future of Pole BicyclesQuote from Pole philosophy still describes our future: “Pole wants to create the fastest, most striking, and most thoughtfully designed machines.”
If we don’t make the change, we don’t see how we would have that future.
Sincerely,
Pole Bicycle Company Oy
Good lord Leo.
You better deliver 100% after that soap box.
Best of luck.
"The direction we were going was excellent in many ways. The latest significant change was moving to a new factory. Lauri was a big part of all these major decisions and changes and a key player implementing them. We thank him for these years."
For instance;
We have identified two critical problems causing anger and intrust between the customer and us:
• Slow customer service especially in after-sales
• Failing Stamina frames
The reason for slow customer service is not in the customer service personnel. The problem lies in the management and the processes. The changes that we now make will work to solve these problems.
So CEO rule 101 Leo; You hired the guy, you vetted him, you tested your concerns. You made a mistake. Just run with it, be humble, honest and stop blaming everyone but yourself.
2. Why did the comment about throwing a CEO under the bus, get some many upvotes? If you take a job as CEO and perform, you get compensated well. If you don't you get fired, at least that's how it should work.
Cited again:
"The reason for slow customer service is not in the customer service personnel. The problem lies in the management and the processes. The changes that we now make will work to solve these problems." Thrown under the bus 101.
It should be mentioned that the CEO could easily have been a hack job. But more likely CEO was in an ego driven environment dictated by the founder while attempting to manage a product that is defective. Sucks for all involved. Pole wont be around much longer.
Having said that If I was Leo I would step back and focus just on what I do know and I proved I do best...
Also keeping the ones own Ego healthy enough is recommended.. humilty is about realize what you´ve been gifted to do and what not... superman it´s an individual chimera..
Buying a Pole was the worst bike experience that I’ve ever had, and I never even received my bike. Leo will be quick to blame Covid, moving offices, and now being too top heavy to effectively operate, but my experience dates back to before all of those things.
Hoping that with the new recognition of a problem Pole can change some practices and honour their customers.
I think it’s cool seeing an entire frame being machined from aluminum plate but I have personal opinions about it being viable.
It’s a step up from welding filing cabinets
At least Nicolai would put right a frame that only a mother’s love could tolerate.
Having owned 4 YTs I‘m following YT forums pretty close since many years and breaking frames are almost a non issue in the last 4-5 years. Besides, if you happen to ride in German bikeparks or in the Alps you will see tons of shredders abusing their Capras, Tues and Jeffsys. Wouldn’t happen if the frames were prone to break. If any, the carbon YT frames are rather overbuilt at the moment.
Plus I would rather a cracked chain stay than my frame literally falling in half.
Maybe Jurgen Schlender bought it: www.emtb-news.de/news/alutech-cnc-efanes-e-mtb/?utm_source=site&utm_medium=footer&utm_campaign=related-other-site&utm_term=header06
Failed frames will happen though and YT is a big company so I mean they make a ton and have a lot of means of production. Which also means it should not be hard to ship parts globally. They pride themselves an expedient service and right to your door delivery yet how many stories do we hear about waiting months for warranty claims to be settled. It reflects on corporate values more accurately how you take care of your existing clients vs. how you market to new ones.
Right now we have two dudes following forums and asking questions. I think we need data to be released. Why not? Increased safety and transparency an issue @YTIndustries?
Isn’t that supposed to be the end all and be all of bike designs?
Apparently shit breaks.
bike was at my house in a week....
customer service matters.....some companies need to step their game up
Similar experience as a kid racer with trek bikes....I would break their 1st gen carbon bikes bi-annually they'd ship out replacements....superfast...One time I broke the new frame within a month of receiving it....they kinda forgot about me on the warranty claim....assumed it had already been filled from the last one they sent out. ......I followed up when I hadn't heard anything and to make it right they custom painted it for me....I still have this bike and I still ride treks because of this.....they don't break as much anymore
Yeah, totally not severe...
forums.mtbr.com/pole-bicycles/catastrophic-failure-pole-stamina-180mm-1136557.html
scroll down for more failure pics
:armchairQBEngage: That failure screams I got lazy and ignored the bending moment from the eccentric shock link and just grabbed the ID surface of the frame side shock mount bore to add a contact load to make the model simpler and run faster. Or maybe it's just foil? Or maybe 270lb endurbro hucked to flat with his heels dropped and legs locked ?
“ • Improve user instructions to prevent actions that may damage or weaken the frame permanently.”
I had a 30 odd minute video call with Leo 2 days ago about my issues and his plan moving forward. I did make light of my distrust in the frame as it shows their manufacturing and QC isn't up to scratch. He did stress he wants to make right and already has design changes to increase the wall thickness of the frame and more bridging for strength. I took away that a timeline for this is Q2 2021. Leo did stress he wants to make this right. However it is going to be difficult as I have already previously said I've had to order a privateer 161 so I have a bike to ride for a southern hemisphere summer.
@woffa04: Q2 2021 ? Wow, the CNC design is supposed to allow for some very quick changes so while the failure are not deemed "severe" it seems the whole frame is flawed. Seems like they may have taken it a step too far by removing the bolts between the machine and stamina.
Also wonder if they blew up the money on the DH (or enduro ?) team and Madeira trips and are now short on cash and production time to do CS and so prioritize new customers to bring some fresh cash. But if they do it by selling a flawed product I'm afraid it's not gonna work well.
This to me is proof that the company is heading in the wrong direction. If you make a big travel bike that fails, the solution is NOT to give more instructions to the user...
Leo: "You just aren't making them FAST enough. GET THE f*ck OUT OF MY KITCHEN."
Worth mentioning that when customers have issues about their failed bikes and no one replies for weeks or months! Phone, email or social medis. They get left in the dark. Pole Bicycles blocks customers from their "riders group page" to try and remove all the bad rep and failed bikes. Problem is for them that now another facebook page has been created to expose their failed products when customers just want communication and guidance about their failed expensive bikes.
Be aware that Pole will put the reason on the customer for the failure, did you ride with in it's intended use... i don't know how many times i had to answer that question. Maybe i should video log every ride i did on them so i have proof of what i used it for.
By all means, spend the money on a Pole... if you don't plan on riding it much and love emails! I've spent more time and days getting warranty than riding the damn thing!
Last but not least, first paragraph says it all.
"Pole Bicycles are best known for their early adoption of what's now considered 'modern' mountain bike geometry,"
"Now considered modern geometry", so go buy a more reliable, consistent and customer focused brand for less $$$ and that you'll be able to ride rather than sending emails!
www.facebook.com/groups/391332644913734/?ref=share
People that have had outstanding poor communications with (non-existent) customer service for a long time, i would go to the Finnish consumer affairs. They've already had several cases from customers....
Does that make him a d**khead? Sorry, I couldn't resist.
heat treat, load it back into he mill, finish bore the head tube, bb, seat tube, and suspension pickups.
also,
you know,
you could machine all the welds back away
But its obvious that the benefit of the strength of 7075 doesn't outweigh the weakness of the resulting head tube.
To add something that would cross the centerline would be horrifically expensive due to additional machining time and extra material.
As for machining it out of a single piece, it would be hard for the cutting tools to reach the inside of the frame. It is a hollow frame, you see... The British brand Empire did machine DH frames (after they also cast DH frames) and instead of saving weight on the inside, they were doing it on the outside. So basically a central web with ribs extending left and right. Cool too though to me it appears more painful to crash with and hit it wrong. I think they have also been printing frame parts before Robotbike did it. Only thing I'm waiting for now from them would be a cold forged frame... still waiting. I think only Shimano might be able to pull that off.
I'd say that's about as failed as a headtube can get.
"
At the moment we are talking with the rider. He didn't want these photos to get online. The photos are screenshots from his private Strava and only someone who follows him has access to these.
We have met the rider earlier and we know how he rides. He is a friend and we will warranty his frame. Also, we have to get to the bottom of this. This incident is one of a kind at the moment. We have a detailed documented data of the frame manufacturing phases with weight before bonding, weight after bonding, and the batch number of the adhesive used. Also, we have the names who worked with the frame and who inspected it before shipping. With all this data we can track others for example if we find that the adhesive is the problem. When we get the failed frame, we can find the reason why the frame broke. We will arrange a pick up for the frame next week.
Since this is only one incident we are not yet taking any actions. However, we remind everyone to check their frames regularly before every ride. Washing your bike throughout is a good routine where you can go through the frame and parts. I personally check my frame, tires, and parts after every ride when I wash the frame. When the frame is clean, it's easiest to see if something is not right.
" (end of quote)
So, someone took someone elses pictures and published them without consent and without context. And you come here to link to that thread? How is this helpful?
I was using the Evolink as a stepping stone to a Machine. I asked Leo about the head tube seam on the Machine. Are the two sides keyed together somehow, or offset the seam so it's not right in the path of steerer tube forces if you case or overshoot something and massively load the head tube. Leo assured me it would never ever break. That that was impossible. I've broken enough bikes to see a potential problem when I see one.
Then he went to Whistler for the first time. Imagine a guy making promises about a bike's toughness having never been to Whistler. Where one of his riders zippered open a head tube just as I predicted.
Anyway. If you want a really progressive aluminum bike with real pedigree from a legit engineering genius buy Nicolai. A G1 costs less than a Stamina and they don't break. Nicolai has been building extreme bikes for 30 years and have the reputation to go with that.
There are plenty of bikes where the head tube opened up like that. The Machine or Stamina's head tube design could easily have the seam offset slightly to one side with a keyed interface and some massive hardware. You don't need to be a mechanical engineer to see that this is super high stress area. A reasonable designer would see that his cool concept needs some review - that's how the process works. Stop bashing people who honoured you by spending $5k on one of your frames and adapt the design. Mid-stream design changes - isn't this touted as one of the benefits of the Pole CNC-clamshell system?
Remember when they released the Machine and its front shock mount was one-sided? www.pinkbike.com/news/pole-bicycles-announces-cnc-machine-press-release.html
That seemingly obvious error was resolved so why can't this?
Wow, what a glowing endorsement.
Signed:
An Industrial Designer.
Do you have firsthand experience with the frames performing well and not breaking? Me personally, I don't go out of my way to defend companies with shit reps for manufacturing quality and customer service that I don't have firsthand experience or knowledge with.
However, I do have one experience of a design flaw with a very well known bike company. Rear tire was hitting the seat tube on bigger hits (nothing super crazy). The company did not admit to anything wrong with the frame, but just told me to change to a smaller tire despite my tires being within the recommended size range. Later models, they fix the problem. Even then, I didn't publicly shame them. They make great bikes. Not a fan of cancel culture because some stories just go viral when others are not in the spotlight.
You always seem to seek out my comments to get into it with me. I'm at the top of your troll hit list, right? Lmao.
The huck to flat is not a test for testing to see how a frame will hold up after bottoming out. It is a test to see how a suspension platform holds up to bigger compression hits.
CEO just manages the sales, engineering, and production.
Two things didn’t happens proper testing during prototype phase. And since this is Leo brain child, Leo is the founder and engineering manager. The other issue is quality inspection. It makes you think, do they even have a second set of eyes looking at these parts?
You can’t exactly fire the founder, especially if they own majority shares of the company. You can however, reallocate them to a position where they’ll do the least amount of damage to the product line. This is how many companies in DoD behave as well. Leo will hold the title of CEO, but it was the best way to drive him out of the engineering department for his incompetence.
What, like riding them?
trust me, your sales would not rise to the level of profitability. ever.
You are an optimist. I'd put the fraction of MTBers who could put all the parts on the frame at 1%.
Bought an Evolink two years ago. Smooth process and customer service was good.
Best bike I’ve ever owned and haven’t had a single issue with it.
Hope Pole sort things out.
Meanwhile Loaded still has a webpage and you can still buy product from them. Disgracefully shit company.
@Pinkbike it'd be super cool to get a list together of companies that seemingly don't respond to warranty claims. This would require serious in depth work, but it would be one of the best buying guide articles of all time!
Were previous complaints centered around each customer not receiving a personalized diatribe?
Hopefully Pole works things out, we need more out of the box tinkers.
There’s an old saying about walking in another’s shoes, worth considering.
Foremost a functional product and excellent customer service. It is not enough that Kokkonen himself is convinced he is engineering and selling such hot shit that customers need to be thankful they got it - the customers themselves have to be convinced and satisfied!
The enormous ego will be Leo‘s undoing because it obscures the problems occurring and being brought to him from the outside.
I have witnessed (as an employee) the downfall of a very innovative company into bankruptcy because of exactly the same problem...
-Entrepreneur sets up company, is told they need to step away to allow business to grow/or are burnt out
-CEO comes in
-Founder undermines, dips in an out, pulls CEO left and right
-CEO quits or is ousted
-Founder returns thinking they are the savior, realises they cant run the existing business as they dont have the skillset, value drains from company
-Business goes down the tubes (no pun intended).
"Pole grows as a company all the time and soon, there will be someone else doing the press releases and forum talk. You will get something that does not show my personality any longer. There are a lot more people involved in the company already and I am handing over my responsibilities to others. When we started the company, I was doing pretty much everything that was about bike engineering, website UX design, marketing, communication or negotiation with suppliers. I have never been the CEO because I don't want to be handling the everyday stuff. My passion is in company strategy, engineering, and product development. We have finally found a very capable growth hacker who will take over soon the marketing activities and communication that I have been responsible for since the start. I will be available on our Facebook forum for our customers in the future for technical advice."
Hire me for marketing.
I have had one flawed frame (not naming the company but very well known bike company) due to the design. Rear tire was hitting the seat tube on bigger hits that was nothing crazy. They told me to change to smaller tire, however, the tires I were using were in the recommended size range. They never admitted to a design flaw after months of exchange, however they made the change in later models. Again, companies have to protect their product/company until it is known for sure it wasn't user error. Sweety-Bella.
7075 aluminium alloy's composition roughly includes 5.6–6.1% zinc, 2.1–2.5% magnesium, 1.2–1.6% copper
7005 is: Aluminium 91.0% - 94.7% Chromium 0.06% - 0.20% Copper =0.10 %
I think that Leo filling every positions in his company doesn't solve all problems.
capital.enna.com/team-member
They kick @$$. Your welcome
He’s another company owner with no interpersonal skills and a vastly overinflated sense of his own importance.
It’s a shame because a little humility and reason could have fixed these issues fairly early on if he’d been willing to do a redesign.
Other failures in reviews didn't result in the company behaving like arrogant arseholes. I hate Canyon but their response was very transparent. Leo (YOU) deletes comments, blamed everyone but Pole, and has terrible warranty claims process to boot. For the companies which have had failures and still have a good rep have one thing in common - They took it on the chin.
For real. I think Pink Bike should take some actions towards this unfortunately common bullying in social medias, and restrict all unprofessional comments. It's okay to criticise companies' actions, but when it goes to comparing someone to Hitler and discussing whether someone has personality disorders... It's not.
I also try to raise awareness by talking about it, I’m not bullying. There’s maybe even less of a point to bully someone for his behavior if that someone actually has a disorder as the brain may interpret differently what came through the ear.
I’ve also spent most of my free time during 5 years documenting myself on mental health to make sense of the shitstorm closed ones threw at me over the years.
When the Rocky Mountain broke in the same Pinkbike field test they released a statement saying literally nothing else than "Yeah, we might look into it, I dunno", yet the peanut gallery praised it as the epitome of good customer service. Pole admitted to making a mistake and explained why, and that is much preferrable to yet another public relations-shill with an empty corporate response.
* The rate of bike failure for Poles is not any more or any less than for other bikes - most people are quite happy with their purchase. Talk to anyone at a bike shop and see how many name brand bikes come back for warranty defects, or look on forums for [insert your favorite bike here] and you will see plenty of failures. Likewise, don't believe what you read online where people say defects are due to failures - some people either bottom out their suspension repeatedly or smack bikes into stuff that would contribute to failure. For the case listed here [https://forums.mtbr.com/pole-bicycles/catastrophic-failure-pole-stamina-180mm-1136557.html], this happened to a rider on my local trails, and the frame was extremely corroded which doesn't happen by accident (and i have pics to prove this)
* Customer service has been a problem with Pole to varying extents. The Staminas had gone through a redesign, so the orders were delayed. Prior to that, there really werent any issues. The company went through an increase in demand, as well which a long with Covid definitely contributed. For the money they charge, its well within reason to expect at least better communication.
* Bikes ride amazing, and all the reviews echo this (read the Pinkbike reviews of the Stamina 140, Pole Machine, Evolink, especially the climbing part), and the whole Grim Donut saga which follows the same principles. My profile pic is me taking my Machine off a 12 foot drop to a 30-45 degree downslope, which is not that steep, and it handles it no problem every time. If you are willing to deal with long delays, you won't be disappointed in your purchase
* Very few people know what its like to run a company, and none of us know what the situation is at Pole, so guessing on whether or not this is the right move is dumb.
* In general, if you look at someone who produces unique looking, innovative products, for the sport that you love, and you would rather see them fail rather than change things up and succeed, you need to rethink your own character qualities
Now go ahead and hit that down arrow to confirm that PB commenters are as dumb as the rest of the internet.
"this happened to a rider on my local trails"
"My profile pic is me taking my Machine off a 12 foot drop"
Not sure you know what anecdotal means.
Also, arguably, owning a Pole bike and clearly enjoying it makes you inherently biased.
@ Pcurt27
Pole said that 10 frames broke over the last year. I have no way of convincing you that this is on par with other brands for the model, thats why I said do your own research. Go on line and see if you can find 10 examples of cracked frame of your bike model, and you are guaranteed to find it, not counting for all the ones that are not online.
And if you dont understand the difference between highlighting an example of poor bike use and personal enjoyment of the bike that falls inline with other reviews, and what is considered anecdotal evidence to say that all Poles are reliable, then there is no hope for you.
But yeah, thanks to both of you for proving my last sentence of my original post. Stay mad.
In no way am I saying companies with lesser financial position is an excuse to escape liability and wrongdoing, however, some companies swap out frames easier because they are in better financial positions, sell a lot more frames, and charge more for frames (add in the broken warranty frames in the cost). Companies generally don't swap out a frame until it is 100% known to be an error in design/production/engineer as opposed to user error. Pole is a small bike company with under 10 employees (according to LinkedIn) and I'd guess they are one of the most profitable bike companies.
Cheers