Pole Rinne Ylä - Review

Feb 9, 2015
by Paul Aston  


Based in Finland, Pole is a brand new company created by Leo Kokkonen, an engineer and passionate rider himself. The Rinne Ylä is Pole's flagship enduro bike, with 27.5" wheels, a slack, 65° head angle, and 153mm of rear travel via a concentric pivot that rotates around the bottom bracket. Our test bike arrived direct from the company's headquarters with a SRAM-heavy build that included a 160mm RockShox Pike, Monarch Plus RC3 rear shock, Guide brakes and an X01 / X1 drivetrain, finished off with DT-Swiss wheels and Maxxis' High Roller II tires front and rear. It's lighter than it looks at 29.4lb (13.35kgs) for a size L, and it retails for €4390 ($4970 USD approx), a competitive price from a niche brand.


Rinne Ylä Details

• Intended use: Enduro Race / Adventure
• Wheel travel: Front 160mm / Rear 153mm
• Wheel size: 27.5"
• 'Pole Link' Suspension
• Full 7005 aluminium frame
• ISCG-05 chain guide tabs
• Rockshox Pike RCT3 / Monarch Plus RT3
• SRAM X01 drivetrain
• Reverb Stealth dropper seat post
• SRAM Maxle 12mm X 150mm
• Weight: 13.35kg (Large size tested)
• MSRP: $4970 USD (approx) / €4390 Euro
www.pole.fi, @polebicycles

Frame Design

The Rinne Ylä's tube set is full 7005 aluminum alloy, with a few chunks of CNC'd billet to link the swingarm together. A 150mm Maxle is used in conjunction with the 12 x 142mm hub. This allows the dropouts to be wider, and adds stiffness to the back end, also facilitating fitting the rear wheel by letting the axle stay on a straighter path and finding the threads on the opposite side more easily. The Monarch Plus pierces through the interrupted seat tube, with the Reverb Stealth hose running nearby, up into the bottom end of the seat tube. All of the cable routing is external, located on either side of the down tube. It is possible to mount a water bottle cage to the Rinne, but the shock layout forces these mounting points to the underside of the downtube, mud's favorite place to accumulate.

Pole Rinne Yla
  Clockwise from left: Chunky drop-outs for the 142mm hub and 150mm Maxle. The Pole-Link is a simple design. Saddle design by 2 year-old Ukko, and the Monarch Plus which pierces the seat tube.

For any bike-mountaineers out there, removing the shock bolt allows the rear wheel to be folded under the bike (also useful for putting it into your car). Pole are working with a backpack manufacturer which will have fixing points so you can throw it on your back and get hiking into uncharted territory.

Pole Rinne Yl


Suspension Layout

The 'Pole Link' is the heart of the bike, a concentric pivot that rotates on cartridge bearings that also double as the bottom bracket. The axle of the cranks run on the inner race of the bearings, and the swingarm pivots on the outer race; this means there is zero interference between the two as they are always active together.

The 'Pole-Link' is not a new idea by any means, but it's a lesser explored avenue when it comes to suspension design due to the dreaded, inefficient pedal-bob demon, although it does offer many advantages from an engineer's point of view - the suspension is completely isolated from any drivetrain forces, creating a more active and supple suspension. Where many bikes currently are designed with some degree of anti-squat in order to prevent the suspension from compressing during pedalling efforts, the Rinne Ylä suspension configuration means that the chain has no influence, either positive or negative, on the suspension.

Does pedal bob mean that the bike is inefficient? According to designer Leo, no. He believes that a bike with strong anti-squat can actually be less efficient, as there will always be a downward force on the bike as you pedal; if your bike doesn't squat, there is energy being lost somewhere in order to support your body weight. He feels that with a concentric pivot the bike will bob, but more of the energy from your legs will be transferred into the chain and cassette to drive the bike forward rather than prevent the bike from sinking under your weight. More importantly, does pedal-bob really matter on a mountain bike? Bobbing around on a smooth climb might not be ideal, but modern shocks, with all their different modes and tune-ability are able to do a fair amount to negate this. With an isolated drivetrain, when you're pedalling over bumps the suspension is free to move, sticking to the ground and allowing the tire to grip.

Pole Rinne Yl

Geometry

The Rinne Ylä is certainly unique in the looks department, and though it may not the most pretty up close, it certainly has stance, maybe enough to warrant a generic 'Low is a Lifestyle' sticker from a Japanese driftmobile. It’s clear that Pole don't give a damn about trends, and have done it how they wanted, creating close-to DH geometry on a 153mm bike: 65 degree head angle, 460mm reach in the large size, and its 1237mm wheelbase (I measured the wheelbase at 1250mm) is longer than many DH bikes and all of its 160mm rivals.

While many bikes claim to be low, long and slack, the Rinne truly is, with its reach numbers placing it up there with boundary pushers like Kona, Mondraker and Orbea. That long reach is only part of the story, and where a long front center combined with short chainstays is the current prevailing geometry trend, Pole have gone the opposite direction, with a chain stay length of 450mm. Leo suggests that the chainstays should be even longer with his larger frames, and has some prototypes in testing.



From the Engineer

Curious to find out what inspired the creation of this unique ride, I asked Leo Kokkonen, the man behind the designs at Pole Bikes, a few questions about his baby.

Why did you start the company; what was your inspiration and goal?
Let's put it this way. Q: Why does a dog licks his balls? A: Firstly, he can do it, and secondly he likes it. We can do it because I'm a designer myself and I have an industrial design company and we love bicycles.

What inspired you to use a concentric pivot and why?
I loved the idea of a bike which was easier to tune and handle. The concentric pivot point answers to these questions.

How did you choose the geometry?
Professional rider Matti Lehikoinen consulted us at the beginning. We started off with the geometry design of a downhill bike with 26" tires at first because that was the field we knew the best. We had cooperation with BTR Fabrications from UK to help us with the prototypes and finalizing the design. We asked Matti which bike he liked to ride the most from his past and we started to find out the geometry on that bike. That bike had a custom geometry made for Matti and the bike was still in Finland so it was the best place to start.

At that time we didn't think about the overall concept that much. We found out that the bike Matti liked had a long chainstay. As we wanted to create something different we started to analyze motocross bikes as well because this industry has a longer pedigree in the geometry and wheel size debate. Motocross bikes have fairly long chainstay compared to the front center and short stem or no stem at all (compared to the average mountain bike). As the mountain bikes have been evolving to have shorter stems and slacker head angles the chainstays have stayed short, and we think that the balance between the front and rear center has been missed.

The long chain stay on a concentric bike doesn't mean the same thing as in high pivot point bicycle. The concentric system shortens when compressed and the high pivot point bike extends. This is why a concentric system is easier to corner - it gets shorter in the corners. Also you get better grip because the rear wheel doesn't escape to a different "orbit."

What are your thoughts on anti-squat?
I've obviously had different bikes with different suspension concepts. I've raced downhill and have been a mountain biker for a while. I have noticed that many bikes have a tendency to slow down in rough sections and they feel very hard to pedal uphill if you compare them to hardtails. I studied the mechanisms of bicycle suspension and I had an insight that if a bike has high anti-squat rate and chain stretch it slows the bicycle down. The more anti-squat you have the more it slows you down. If you exceed 100% of AS you are extending the swingarm by every pedal stroke. Also, the anti-squat affects the suspension dynamics and the shocks are not easy to tune. In a concentric system the pedal kickback is counter clockwise. This way the bicycle doesn't slow down on bumps and the shock is not affected by the transmission that much. The downside is that you can feel the bike compress with the first pedal strokes and you lose some of the power, but it'll pay off in uphill and the rough places. The lack of anti-squat hardly matters when you get the bike going and it's not that bad in the beginning either.

What testing did you do?
We wanted to know if my thoughts were correct or not. I think the best way to make sure is to ride the bikes as soon as possible. We had different bikes to test and we used a stopwatch to do it. I think this is the only way to tell the differences between bikes. We ran timed runs downhill, enduro and XC. Also we did short uphill sprints to see if the anti-squat has a big influence. We compared the times to different bikes and riders. We tried to conceal the rider effect from the study. Our next goal is to study the energy put in compared to the time with different geometries and suspension types.



Components:
Specifications
Release Date 2015
Price $4200
Travel 153mm
Rear Shock RockShox Monarch Plus RC3 216×63
Fork RockShox Pike RCT3 Solo Air 160mm
Headset Cane Creek 10.ZS44 / 10.ZS56
Cassette SRAM XG1180
Crankarms SRAM X1 1400 T32 170mm
Chainguide N/A
Bottom Bracket Pole®Link
Pedals N/A
Rear Derailleur SRAM X01
Chain SRAM PC1130
Front Derailleur N/A
Shifter Pods SRAM X1 11-speed
Handlebar Raceface SIXC ¾” RISER 785mm
Stem Raceface Atlas 50mm
Grips Raceface Half Nelson
Brakes SRAM GUIDE RS F180mm / R180mm
Wheelset DT Swiss EX 1501 SPLINE® ONE 27.5 (12x142mm)
Tires MAXXIS HighRoller II 3C/EXO/TR
Seat Pole “Cheek” Ukko Kokkonen Design
Seatpost RockShox Reverb Stealth





Climbing

So how did it actually ascend? Switching the Monarch to the Firm compression mode on the fire road liaison to the trails there was little to report. When hitting the rising singles and changing in to Mid compression mode, there was some noticeable bob, which felt alien at first. After a couple of rides I barely noticed it, with it only being visible when pedalling and looking down at the damper. What did become apparent though, was the grip and suspension action; it really dug in when the trail loosened up and traction was called for, and floated through roots and rocks more than bouncing around on top and over them.

Even though my bike had all the angles for going down, the long back end mixed with a the steep 76 degree seat angle meant my weight was well in front of the rear wheel, a big benefit when the incline increased. One characteristic that was certainly different compared to 'normal' bikes was the way the suspension dove deeply when riding through compressions seated, although this was much less apparent when climbing out of the saddle.

The slack head angle, DH bike wheelbase and grippy MaxxTerra tires means it's not going to be a whippet up the climbs, but it certainly didn't slouch, and did the job in a forgiving manner - it's more of a Land Rover than a quad bike. Equipped with a tried and tested low range X01 1x11 drivetrain, the 42t cassette and a 34t ring upfront meant that there was enough spread to conquer most climbs.

Pole Rinne Yl
  The geometry of the Pole is perfect for attacking the downs, just don't let it run away with you.

Descending

When the nose starts pointing down, the Pole's monster trucking capabilities are unleashed, and its great geometry genuinely lets you attack like you're on a downhill bike, with loads of stability thanks to the extra-long wheelbase. When pumping through rough chatter, the Pole accelerates, with the incredibly active 153mm Monarch Plus munching everything in its path. Once up to speed it takes a lot to slow the bike down – the amount of momentum is carries is something else. I ran the Pike with 3 air volume spacers; the added progression and support from this allows you to plow harder into holes and down steps and drops.

When testing back to back on my final outing on the Pole (it was a sad day indeed) against a shorter, steeper bike, a disconnected synapse was bridged in my brain, and I came to the realization that it takes a certain amount of confidence to ride a bike like this; keeping your weight over the front needs to become natural in your reactions with the aggressive geometry. If that confidence falters, and you find yourself leaning back in corners, the front wheel can become light when you least need it to. It's crucial to stay on top of your charge in the center of the bike no matter what happens, this can take some practice and rewiring of your mindset.

Luckily, safely weighting the front end is child's play, helping to build confidence in the bike's grip on cambers and corners. The Pole hauled around long, contoured arcs where time can really be gained or lost, and being more centered between the wheels and having to worry less about weight shifting meant I could just lean in and let it track, while the active suspension also played a huge role keeping the wheel gripping and planted.

After becoming accustomed to the bike over the course of a few rides, I never felt the long wheelbase to be much of a hindrance on slower, tighter sections; it simply means you need to readjust your timing, just like when you change to a 29er. The key is to turn the front wheel a little wider before dropping the bike and committing to the turn. I think people often worry about tight corners too much anyway – when you think about it, how much time do you really spend on tight corners? Tenths compared to seconds spent bounding down straights, across cambers or around long arcs? Of course, riders whose home terrain is lacking in longer straightaways and sections where a bike can be allowed to run may want to search out something slightly more maneuverable.

Wheelies

Just after the bike arrived, I received a message from God (Pinkbike's Richard Cunningham) saying that the bike would pedal like crap, but will be amazing for wheelies for some inexplicable reason. Like many messages from above, I took it with a pinch of salt and promptly forgot about it. Then, while descending a tarmac road in search of a trail (or salvation?) I popped a manual, which went on, and on, and on, like some old book. Perhaps it was the lack of chain tension when pumping that lets the bottom bracket sink and pull up the front end of the bike? Whatever the case may be, the wheelies were never-ending - perhaps I was being balanced from above.

Pole Rinne Yl

Technical Report

•The 2.35” High Roller IIs mixed with the (25mm ID) DT Swiss Spline One wheelset was a great combo, Sure, the MaxxTerra compound front and rear added a little more resistance on the climbs (I usually use a harder compound tyre on the rear) but grip was great and tire stability was reassuring.

• The rear shock placement is not ideal. We needed to replace the DU bushing after a few weeks of riding due to the mud from the rear tire flinging directly onto the the eyelet. We changed for a heavy duty FOX 3-piece bushing which lasted much longer. We also had teething issues with the pre-loading of the pivot and linkage with bearings becoming worn and developed play after a few weeks. We swapped out to some EnduroMax bearings which was a fairly simple procedure, and they lasted longer again. Although having to change the bearings seemed like hassle at first, when considering it's a full bottom bracket and pivot overhaul it's not excessive maintenance by any means.

• Not once did I drop a chain during testing, even on the roughest sections with long periods in-between pedal strokes. The X01 with the X-Sync chainring does a great job, but I usually expect to drop a chain once in a while. I attribute this to the constant chain length not pulling the chain from the lower teeth once it has started to unhook itself.

• I wasn't a fan of the saddle, it just didn't seem to fit my ass, despite my ass' fitness. But it does have a nice design by 2 year old Ukko.

• The Stealth Reverb is simple to install, as the seat tube is open just above where the shock pierces through, but it runs very close to the Monarch's piggy back, causing the hose to rub the shock.


Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesPole have taken a different approach to bike geometry and suspension design, but those risks have paid off - they've created a machine that's incredibly capable on the descents, an absolute monster when it comes to flat out speed and confidence inspiring in all areas. Its trail performance over less steep terrain was commendable as well, and although it won't climb the fastest it does simplify techy climbs, plus it wasn't designed for setting any records on the way up. And don't forget the Rinne's ridiculous wheelie capability, which comes in handy for impressing kids, girls and fans in the street. - Paul Aston



View additional high-res images in the gallery



There were times when this bike was tested using a shuttle service in Lousa, Portugal. We'd like to give a big thanks to Brett Wheeler and his company Wheelers Mtb Holidays for helping us out and showing us the trails - Check out their Facebook page here.



About the Reviewer
Stats: Age: 29 • Height: 6'1” • Ape Index: +4" • Weight: 161lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
The latest addition to the Pinkbike team, Paul Aston is a racer and dirt-jumper at heart. Previously competing in World Cup DH, now he's attacking enduro and has been since before it was fashionable. Based in the UK, but often found residing in mainland Europe allows him to experience a huge variety of terrain and trails.



232 Comments

  • 97 3
 This bike looks so flippin' excellent. Excellent review, great reviewer credentials (and the addition of those credentials is very welcome. It feels nice to be heard!). The bike looks pretty special, I would love to ride one, especially due to the extremely low stand over. I have short legs so low stand over is really nice for me. Stoked people are pushing geo, limits like this.
  • 35 2
 Very happy to see some manufacturers doing their own thing - and apparently succeeding with it!
  • 14 3
 True, I love how he detected the difference, explains it and unfolds what that means for the ride.
  • 16 1
 AND you can set it up singlespeed without a tensioner
  • 13 5
 I like the geo and definitely love the long chainstays, but this is an interesting claim:

"The long chain stay on a concentric bike doesn't mean the same thing as in high pivot point bicycle. The concentric system shortens when compressed and the high pivot point bike extends. This is why a concentric system is easier to corner - it gets shorter in the corners. Also you get better grip because the rear wheel doesn't escape to a different "orbit." "

Does a shock really compress that much in the corners to the point where this really makes a difference?

His claims about anti-squat are pretty bold and completely challenge the merits of the DW Link designs.

I still think the concentric BB pivot is a bad idea for DH bikes with longer travel because of the extreme axle path imbalance between the front and rear suspension, but maybe it will work for trail bikes.
  • 8 2
 @Protour I was waiting for the protour axle path comment!

I agree somewhat with the front-rear axle path disconnect, but when ur charging downhill your weight bias is way forward, so the rear might not need to get out of the way in the same manner as the front.
  • 42 10
 "The axle of the cranks run on the inner race of the bearings, and the swingarm pivots on the outer race"
So which bit attaches to the frame then???!?

"the Rinne Ylä suspension configuration means that the chain has no influence, either positive or negative, on the suspension."
Not true. At all. Grab the rear brake and pedal. The swingarm will rotate. Line up the swingarm pivot with the top of the chainring and it wont. This bike has built in squat. Squat wastes energy and means the swingarm cant do its intended job, keeping the tyre on the floor. Thats why we gave up on concentric bb pivots years ago. Theyre shit.

"Does pedal bob mean that the bike is inefficient? According to designer Leo, no."
According to physics, Yes!

"He believes that a bike with strong anti-squat can actually be less efficient, as there will always be a downward force on the bike as you pedal; if your bike doesn't squat, there is energy being lost somewhere in order to support your body weight"
This is absolute bollocks. If energy is only being lost of something is moving. If you compress the shock every time you pedal, you are using some of your energy to compress the shock. It is called a damper for a reason. It damps out energy. Thats its job!
If you aren't compressing the shock with every pedal stroke, where do you imagine the energy is going? Into space? Perhaps your chain is getting warmer?

"Once up to speed it takes a lot to slow the bike down – the amount of momentum is carries is something else."
Why? Is it heavy? Or do you just need some better brakes?

I could go on.....Frown
  • 1 1
 Good things in the front of the bike is buried by the rear part.
  • 2 2
 You mean copying Geo from other bikes like the article said
  • 11 0
 @mhoshal We don't think it's wise to reinvent the wheel every time we start a new design process. We had to start from somewhere and we changed the geometry a lot in the process.
  • 13 5
 @gabriel-mission9

"The axle of the cranks run on the inner race of the bearings, and the swingarm pivots on the outer race"
So which bit attaches to the frame then???!?

The answer is the axle.

For all other: We look at the bike as a whole. The overall performance compared to the used energy was better in our system than many other bikes. We can't say if any bike is faster than the other. All the modern bikes are very good. The biggest difference we could find by changing something on the bike was with different tires and geometry. Other than that we think the overall energy rider uses on race course is very important. Energy is wasted on anti-squat but also saved. Same thing is with concentric system. It's all about rider's skills how to take advantage form these features.

One thing we should remember is Neko Mulally in Hafjell. He had zero anti-squat on the bike. Anti squat effects to the suspension and slows se bike down. Think what he could achieve if he did have zero anti squat and he still could pedal.
  • 3 5
 Thankyou gabriel-mission9, this article contains many mistakes. As far as I can understand it having the pivot in line with the point that the chain leaves the chainring would minimise the effect that pedalling forces has upon the suspension action NOT positioning it around the BB. Also, if a suspension design has chain growth as it is compresse, and the rider is keeping his or her pedals in the same position THAT will propel the bike forwards NOT slow it down.
  • 8 1
 @gabriel-mission9

of course its easy to be critical of the bike in scientific terms, but i think an important take-home message about this bike is that if geo and gear is right, you'll end up with a great machine that'll put a big old grin on your face, and the tiny differences in perceived "efficiency" (not that you can really define that over-used term scientifically, for a bicycle) aren't going to stop you having a great ride.
although i agree there seems to be some inconsistencies with the article, i think its refreshing to see a bike review without a bunch of bollocks acronym-supported quasi-science marketing jargon.
  • 1 2
 hahahahahaha classic!
  • 8 1
 @polebicycles
I assume the crank axle runs on bearings in the front triangles bb shell, then the swingarm pivots on another set of bearings that run on the outside of the bb shell. So four bearings in total. It is just poorly described in this article, which makes it sound like the whole system runs on two bearings.

I agree that a chainless bike has less to hinder the suspension action, but I dont think a bike which has the swingarm pivot round the bb will ride like a chainless bike. The closest you could get to a chainless effect, would be to have the main pivot in line with the top of the chainring, and the smallest rear cassette possible.
  • 17 2
 @madm3chanic
I am not trying to criticise the bike, although I can see how it could be read that way. I haven't ridden the bike, so apart from assuming it doesn't pedal well, I cant really comment.

What I am criticising is the use of psuedo-science, with a sprinkling of total bs in an effort to sell the thing. Selling pedal bob as a feature that actually improves efficiency is utter bollocks. And the total failure of the reviewer to see this, or even understand how a bike works it seems, is a massive let down. I know not everyone can be an engineering genius, mixed with a literary master, combined with a professional level athlete who just happens to have an encyclopedic knowledge of every bike part ever made. But frankly bike reviewers SHOULD have these abilities. Its their job to be good at these things, and if they aren't then how did they get the job?
  • 1 0
 yeah you make a good point there...that is assuming that the reviewer doesn't actually know it's BS as opposed to they do know it's bs but are publishing it anyway, which would be much worse. they do have a point tho with particularly active suspension having the effect of tracking over lumps well- yes it'll bob, but it'll also be more active than a platform-locked out suspension system. everything in bike suspension design kinda comes down to what compromise you're willing to accept. all that said, id still prefer a four bar or a nice whippy VPP that didn't actually bob, simple as that.
  • 3 1
 Id win some enduro on that
  • 5 2
 @polebicycles: Anti-Squat only works when pedaling. Anti-Squat has no effect when coasting, only wheelpath affects coasting.
  • 9 1
 This is by far the best bike Ikea has ever made.
  • 4 2
 @jaydawg69 Do you know about pedal kickback? That's caused by anti squat. You're not pedaling when that happens but the swingarm is moving. The chain stretch causes the kickback. And when you have weight on the pedal you can think what happens to the wheel when it has a rearward axle path. Just think Neko Mulally in Hafjell again.

@gabriel-mission9 We are not referring here on bikes which does not bob, because there aren't any full suspension bikes which doesn't not bob. All full suspension bikes boob when you pedal. If not squat, they rise. This feature is not perfect in any bike. The problem is the transmission with chain and big change in cog size. We have not found a single proof which clearly points to that the anti-squat makes the bike perform overall better than the other on this single matter. we have measured this on stopwatch. Generally when I refer to bikes that lose power bikes which have more than 100% of anti squat. There are many bikes which reach over 100% AS value in certain chainring setup. In uphill our bikes have 0% anti squat and that's pretty awesome.

The first thing we decided was that we will not never BS market Pole Bicycle Company. I'm here to answer questions about the design and bikes. I don't want to rule out physics. I may be wrong on some things but I don't think the level of this discussion on the level we can start ruling out who is right or wrong.

If you want to know more about the suspension setup of various bikes, you can purchase this program and you can see all the effects on each bike. There is a good library of bikes there online. www.bikechecker.com
  • 9 1
 Regarding linkage programs such as www.bikechecker.com , here is a quote from Dave Weagle:

"If you are using the "linkage program" to "analyze" suspensions, remind yourself that the data that you are getting is in large part inaccurate, incomplete, and in most cases worthless."

I think part of the confusion with the review is that the reviewer and Pole bicycles are confusing anti-squat with chain-induced feedback while coasting.

Nevertheless, I can't see a bike that bobs a lot while sprinting being very effective in a discipline such as enduro racing where you are sprinting quite often. The strengths of the claims of a lack of chain-induced feedback (which I'm not sold on regarding this design) wouldn't make up for the lack of anti-squat which causes all of the bobbing. This bike probably feels fast on the downhills because of the geometry and the long chainstays, and maybe the concentric BB pivot helps with the cornering. Maybe, but I would have to try it first.

Convincing and entertaining responses from gabrielmission9.
  • 11 1
 dw is notoriously cagey with his proprietary info, and he's trying to use smoke and mirrors to confuse anybody who wants to cut through the BS. Linkage is just fine, if you have accurate measurements and specs. Garbage in, garbage out.

Having owned a concentric BB pivot bike, I enjoyed it immensely in fast, bermed corners and dual slalom like trails. I hated it everywhere else, especially where pedaling was needed. For a park bike? 100%. For a DH, enduro, trail, or XC bike? Absolutely not. Not if you value forward motion.
  • 2 0
 Cheers Protour!

I have linkage already btw.Yes it is a useful tool if you have 100% accurate measurments of the distances between each pivot, which are indeed hard to get hold of.
  • 4 6
 How many of you nay-sayers and cheer leaders have actually ridden the bike?
  • 8 4
 Which is faster, a McLaren F1 or a Massey-Fergeson Combine? Please only answer if you have driven both, otherwise your opinion ain't worth shit.
  • 1 0
 @polebicycles pedal feedback only comes to play when pedaling. AS has no effect with coasting. linkagedesign.blogspot.ca/2010/05/pedal-kickback.html
  • 2 2
 All these anti-squat claims make it seem like i'm reading an anti-vaccination article... So little sense, so little science!
  • 1 0
 @jaydawg69 that is incorrect. Anti-squat only comes into play when pedaling but pedal feedback happens as the suspension compresses. Here is a good explanation and video illustrating the concept www.ridingfeelsgood.com/suspension-linkage-kinematics-basics-anti-squat-pedal-kickback
  • 1 1
 "If you exceed 100% of AS you are extending the swingarm by every pedal stroke". What? Pedaling will never ever extend the swingarm. Depending on the pivot position the effect will either be neutral, or it will push it either up or down, to compress or de-compress the shock. But a pushing action can't possibly result in an extending action. Zero interference of pedaling with the suspension occurs when the pivot, either physical of virtual, stands on the chain line or on its virtual continuation. With this design, the force exerted on the chain will squash the suspension. The suspension will absorb a part of the pedaling force and when it releases it, the effect will not translate into further forward motion. So the way to pedal with this bike is to keep the pedaling force constant so that the shock remains compressed. As soon as it de-compresses, you will lose energy again when first pushing the chain, as you will have to compress it again before the full pedaling force reaches the rear wheel. Now, there may be some advantages to this design, but pedaling efficiency certainly isn't one of them.
  • 3 0
 I think by "extending the swingarm" he means "decompressing the shock"
  • 2 1
 @DavidGuerra You are absolutely right. My point never was to say that this system is the best pedalling bike ever founded. The comparison is made simply to the bikes that have more than 100% AS. In our studies there has been no evidence that this system's overall performance is worse than the others. We found out that more important for the overall performance is right tires, outfit and rider position between the axles.

Our bike's transmission has small effect on the shock. We made pedalling tests with stopwatch and compared them to each other. Same tires, same wheels, same transmission. 0.1sec differences on 80m uphill race. Timed with Freelaps. Same comparison I made with the bikes on 40s track (try to keep it short so stamina doesn't play a huge role) I got 1sec difference to Pole's advantage. We made several runs. Our geometry is very different to the other bike. It may also be very significant part of the advantage.

The tests we made gave us the reason to produce the bike. We need to look at the overall performance. This is very good discussion on the physics but yet still I don't think we have a conclusion on the point that transmission resists the bike performance on the rough bits more than we want to believe.

But don't worry. We are also in process to produce some bikes with AS with this super geometry Wink
  • 2 0
 @mberrevoets both articles say pedal feedback only come to play while pedaling

from Antonio: "Hi John, Veras, the Pedal Kickback only comes into play when you're giving pedals."
from your link: " On the other hand, a bike with less anti-squat won’t pedal as efficiently, but will absorb the terrain better while pedaling, and have less feedback in the pedals as the suspension moves through its travel. "

Both articles say "pedaling"... not much more I can say.
  • 2 1
 But that's the catch, you need stamina to be the role, since pedal bob robs you of some energy. A non-bobbing bike will keep the rider fresh for a longer time.
  • 2 0
 @Primoz When nobody actually have ridden the bike this conversation is making a mountain out of a molehill with the AS. The movement is subtle and like the review says it feels alien at the start but then after a while you hardly notice it. The good thing is that the pedaling power doesn't go to restricting the movement of the swingarm in compression. Specially when pedaling on the trail where there are more or less bumps all the time. Also this system "gives back" energy when coasting and the suspension is working freely. We are still looking at the overall performance and the 0.1sec on 80meters in sprint uphill difference. The uphill wasn't too steep when we tested this bike and the last gear we used in the sprint was about 14t with 32t chainring.

You can see here how small the movement is when rider pedals the bike. www.pinkbike.com/video/378372

That bike was our first prototype mede from STEEL. The track is old SRAM testrack at Malaga Spain. Rider is Matti Lehikoinen who helped us at the beginning.
  • 2 0
 gives back energy? This bike will solve the energy crisis! I'll take two. The video was 99% coasting dh. It would be more informative if pedaling up some technical trail and some smooth trail.
  • 1 0
 You can find more videos from our Youtube channel. youtu.be/kwQa79b2FoE

@jaydawg69 Your commitment to this matter is very strong and it seems that you are very interested in bikes. My native tongue is Finnish so everything doesn't translate perfectly in English.

Up there is real rider testing and we're not making our studies up. Our studies are not academic but they seldom are when a bike company is making them. We are only two man company so it's not possible to make all kinds of videos, graphs and demonstrations online.

We are very familiar with the physics how the bicycle is working and we have consulted other bicycle engineers as well and pro riders have ridden our bikes. We use ProE Creo 3.0 with simulation software and Linkage together to test the kinematics and we have workshop full of prototypes. I've been running an industrial design company for ten years and I've personally tested the bike in Finnish Enduro series. I assure there are more pedalling in flat than you ever may think Big Grin

If you are really interested about the system you can always send me a private message or email leo@pole.fi
  • 73 1
 Why make this bike?
Q: Why does a dog licks his balls? A: Firstly, he can do it, and secondly he likes it.
Best answer ever :-)
  • 20 2
 Yup! PR response of the decade!!

Member of the press gallery to Bush: "Mr. President, why are we invading Iraq?"
Bush: "Well, you could ask the same question : why does a dog lick its balls..."

:-P
  • 20 3
 Ride my pole
  • 4 0
 I see what you did there. Nice.
  • 2 0
 I need to show my appreciation as well.
  • 2 1
 @maxlombardy You don't mind if I get your Pole dirty right?
  • 2 0
 Woooaaah there. It's all gone a bit Prince.
  • 4 1
 Prince is straight, I think you mean George Michael, Elton John, Boy George, or one of a hundred other gay British pop icons.
  • 1 0
 hahahaha oooo snap!
  • 2 0
 I meant Prince. It was more of comment on the linguistic content than the sexuality, but whatever floats it ya know...
  • 1 1
 Hahaha!
  • 38 4
 Yes...another great bike made of of a proper material called "metal". Keep bikes made of this unusual substance coming...it could be the future!
  • 2 1
 Well said :-D
  • 6 0
 I'm looking forward to the discussion of breakthroughs in steel fabrication-I just read an article about Korean engineers that have successfully created a steel alloy as light as Titanium, but not brittle like previous super light steel.
  • 1 4
 Carbon's really cool until it breaks. I've not had good luck. I'm going back to metal, and not aluminum but Reynolds Steel.
  • 4 0
 Is this vaporware, like all the promises of graphene, or is it actually going to come to market one day?
  • 35 1
 Good Job! If PB can only can be this honest with bigger bike company bike reviews...
  • 3 7
flag diego-b (Feb 10, 2015 at 20:47) (Below Threshold)
 Your argument lacks any basis whatsoever! You are implying that they are not honest with big brands because they are big brands (I assume you assume they get pais), yet anyone could argue that they are being lenient with the Rinne because (maybe) they are friends with the owners. Friendship trumps money, maybe who knows. Your argument is absolutely speculative.
The fact that they are honest with this review does not tell you that they are honest with their other reviews as well? Your logic is flawed my friends, if anything the fact that they are objective about this bike goes to prove that they are objective about all bikes, not the other way around.
Have you ridden a Specialized Enduro, a Santa Cruz Nomad, a Pivot Mach 6? They are all amazing bikes yet somehow you assume that because they are big brands with the research and development to produce amazing bikes they should ride like shit? No sir. In logic that is a falacy.
I remember when the first DW Link 5 Spot came out, I bought 2. I loved the bikes, I thought it was great, best you could ever buy. Boutique brand and DW Link, what more could you ask for. I remember @mikelevy 's review comparing it to the trek remedy, and having ridden a remedy extensively, I could not believe that he thought the remedy was better. I know this review is not Mike's but Paul's but what I am trying to say is in the end it is all an opinion.
I am all for boutique brands, I appreciate their customer service, support and what they purport to the industry but I am sure I am not th eonly one who is tired of whiners like you arguing that when PB gives a good review it is solely because of a big brand...I mean read a little they have given plenty of less than stellar reviews to some big brands.
  • 3 2
 Assume you have read other reviews on PB... The basic premise of the wording in the review it self is one of compromise between telling about the product and trying not to offend. The focus it self if you go through it carefully is on what the product does right and often missing what the product is doing wrong. Almost a one sided review, purely due to wording. If you want cold hard fact I did pull up some...

(review for the new XTR M9000 wheelset) “The finished product doesn't look like a lot of the massively tall and wide carbon rims out there, instead sporting a more traditional shape that's 28mm wide externally, 24mm internally, and 21mm tall.”

vs

(review for the Reynolds R27.5) “and that the rims are the old-school, 23-millimeter width.”

Why wasn't the XTR being called out for being “old school”?

***LASTLY you hypocrite!!! How can you assume I have not ridden Nomad, Pivot, Enduro or anything else for that matter? I don't know how you can argue anything about logic or my logic... when the logic you stand to defend is one you just trampled on with your comments LOL. Maybe the basis of your own logic is weak in it self, is it not? Maybe look to your self before “assuming” about others?

If you still dont get what I am on about... Think do you know anything about the Rinne or know relation within BP? So why can you even assume I am wrong.

PS assuming is just wrong... if you truly understood me, I am not assuming anything... I am getting on about how upfront and relaxed manner this review was. No conservative tight review something like the Trek Remedy got...
  • 2 1
 Your argument states that they are not honest with big brands, my argument is they are. Any reasonable person can infer that saying "sporting a more traditional shape that's 28mm wide externally, 24mm internally, and 21mm tall is exactly the same as saying "and that the rims are the old-school, 23-millimeter width". Traditional in any sense is equated to old school. I don't assume you have not ridden the bikes but I do assume that if you have you know they are amazing bikes.
I do assert however that my comment was a bit extreme and had too many assumptions against you so I apologize for that @dyin . Still, I am tired of people claiming that PB's reviews are biased when, in comparison with most other review, i.e. Dirt, Vital, MTBR, SickLines, BikeMag, MBA, they are a lot more detailed and comprehensive...generally,
  • 2 0
 Naa man, you are missing my point. Think this... just because I wish they can be more honest with some of their bigger brand reviews, logically does not imply they are dis-honest in some of their bigger brand reviews. Just less honest, or holding back and can be more honest. Hopefully it is more clear with this explanation?

What you say about the rim is true. But the XTR way of stating it is much more polite, less likely to offend. Vs the straight up this is old school statement. See my point? It is the wording.

Thanks, it's all good no harm done. My bad on calling you out too. Side note I have ridden or owned all the brands you stated. I think they are all flawed in many ways. *Relative* speaking Nomad doesn't have as much mid stroke support as the Enduro. Enduro has less bottom out control than the Nomad. Both do not pedal as efficient as the Mach 6 but Mach 6 lacks the small bump compliance of the Enduro. It goes on... End of the day I think in PB or many other sites as you have stated. They kinda just simply say what is good and completely gloss over what is not as good as the competition. I would agree with you over all they are all good bikes with only slight flaws but ya hopefully you get my point now.

Cheers
  • 1 0
 I get your point I just don't entirely agree.
  • 19 0
 160mm sub-30lb without a single fiber of carbon, SRAM second-tier everything, and lanky metal looks? Sign me up! I'd ride this monster off a cliff any day and haul it up smiling.
  • 17 2
 "160mm sub-30lb without a single fiber of carbon" done three years ago by RM with the slayer 70 (165mm rear) lol
  • 7 1
 Excellent point, and at about the same price too. I forgot about that one.
  • 4 2
 You should check out the Kona Process 153 then.
  • 2 0
 One thing the Pole is not: 160mm of rear travel.
  • 1 0
 @jm2e: Good call. I tend to make assumptions about rear travel based on the fork; nasty habit. I guess I'm old-fashioned. Razz
  • 19 0
 Pole's flagship. Hehe
  • 13 0
 Love the addition of Tester Profile. Having a little background on body and rider type is really nice. Reviews are so subjective and knowing a little about the rider is essential. Thanks PB!
  • 3 2
 He is undoubtedly faster than me and the vast majority of reviewers and has a lot of racing experience. But wasn't exactly a successful World Cup racer. He qualified for 1 of the 5 World Cups he entered and finished 69th in that one. Much more successful in enduro though. Welcome Paul!

www.rootsandrain.com/rider3557/paul-aston/results
  • 14 6
 "the suspension is completely isolated from any drivetrain forces"
I beg to differ; concentric bb designs are known for their ease of maintenance and potential for lateral stiffness, but the statement above is just flat out wrong.
Every pedal stroke severely affects the suspension aka the bob the author goes on and on about - but somehow manages to forget or list as a good thing... Having the pivot in line with the chain would have prevented this in standard sp fashion (albeit producing high levels of brake squat), while also have yielded the good results of the geo - instead people are being sold an inferior suspension design relying heavily on a good shock as the new kool aid. Think about it; do you want your shock to be supple or do you want it to work full time countering the negative effects of the suspension design?
The positives are caused by the geo - not the "polelink" (which isn't even a link, but a standard sp design), but the author seems hell bent in explaining why the bike works in spite of its shortcomings which would have it slaughtered in a less permissive environment, not giving a balanced review (par for the course on Pinkbike sadly). " I learn to ride in a way that negated the shortcomings of the design, and then the frame really worked!" - well, not sh!t! If the basis for every review would be along those lines, all frames would be golden.
For further insights in the suspension design or the faulty logic enforced by the designer, check out ANTONIO OSUNAs linkage design blog or ridemonkey's debate concerning the design. Recommended reading as you might actually learn something Wink
  • 14 4
 This is actually one of the few sentences in the review regarding the suspension that is correct. The suspension is isolated from the drivetrain in the sense that there is zero squat or anti squat - no matter what gear you run, you are not compressing or extending the shock by the force that is transmitted by the chain. The bobbing that this design suffers from is a result of mass transfer during pedaling - it is not due to chain torque. Whether that's desirable or not is a completely different question, I personally much prefer the kind of design you describe above.
  • 1 0
 @klinkekule , can you post links to Antonio Osuna? My searches come up dry.
  • 8 2
 @SiSandro , Because the Pivot is concentric with the BB, For the chain tension not to squat the rear suspension, the chain line would have to be exactly parallel with a line drawn from the dropout to the BB. This can only happen when selecting a gear combination where the chain ring and the rear cog are exactly the same size or same teeth count ( that would be 0% anti squat). Any other gear combination will induce a torque on the rear triangle and provide Pro squat ( negative anti-squat).
  • 2 3
 Actually, it doesn't matter if the chain line is parallel or not. The cassette only transmits the forces to the dropout, so the only thing that changes with rear cog size is the torque. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is though because I would imagine that hardly any force actually goes into the dropout rather than just turning the wheel, but the bikes will have some squat from pedaling.
  • 2 4
 @SiSandro You couldn't be more wrong.
  • 7 0
 A negative anti-squat. Also known as squat.
  • 3 2
 Sisandro is right.
  • 13 3
 Dear RC, why would it be good for wheelies? Those are some fairly long chainstays.
  • 28 0
 very predictable rear wheel movements (no wheelbase growth) from the concentric bb pivot
  • 2 1
 Especially doing a big drop landing, after the suspension is compressed, when very predictable rear wheel movement of this suspension will push you very predictably forward-up, making you walk over the bars very predictably possible.
  • 22 21
 One can or can't do wheelies, bike won't even stand up right if you don't make it so, no matter the make, BB height, CS length or shock tune. It is easier to do on Some bikes than on others but one may say that after he/she learned to wheelie. If someone buys that bike over another in it's class, so that he can learn wheelies then he is stupid. I have never ever met such person, I don't know if such person exists. - that comment is absolutely useless.
  • 4 9
flag bikecustomizer (Feb 10, 2015 at 2:38) (Below Threshold)
  • 19 0
 You're right Waki, this is a no fun zone. Strict adherence to this would be appreciated Pinkbike.
  • 3 4
 The longer the CS, the more stable a bike is during a wheelie. Just look at BMX street riders manualling - they look like they're going to fall at any moment. But, they can get the front end up no bother.
  • 8 1
 Not really. Longer wheel base and especially longer chain stays (because your weight is so far forward) means you have to get your weight way farther back (the length of your arms are probably the limiting factor here) or you have to lift the front end higher which means less stability. The higher inertia of a bigger bike might make up for that, but I doubt it. BMX are so easy to manual because you can manual with the front wheel just barely off the ground.
  • 4 3
 No, DarrellW is correct. The longer the CS, the slower everything happens, so the easier it is to balance. Check out race BMX's, their cs's are about 4 inches longer than a street BMX and they are far more stable once up in a manual. Harder to get there yes, but easier to balance.
  • 3 3
 Darrellw is correct. Longer stays, harder to lift the front up to the point of balance, but easier to keep it there
  • 5 1
 I bet fatbike is great to do wheelies on, side to side balance must be piece of a cake...
  • 7 0
 Interesting shite, but i think we are getting a bit fooled here concerning the energy argument. See link, post #9, the analogy with the teeter totter and the 100percent anti squat bike with lock out engaged. It is my riding experience as well that a bike that does not sqat accelerates on par with a hardtail (no additional energy lost) and a bike that does squat is a pita and accelerates sluggish.
forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/anti-squat-energy-551435.html
  • 15 8
 "if your bike doesn't squat, there is energy being lost somewhere in order to support your body weight"

If you bike doesn't squat, there is no height difference, so no energy lost anywhere. Physics 101.
  • 9 4
 I think he is referring to an equal opposite force. In that, with body weight on the bike and no squat, there must be an equal opposite force to your body weight, stopping the bike sinking into its travel.
  • 5 6
 No height difference sure but there is energy used to support your body weight preventing it falling, so clearly energy is used in this action.
  • 7 5
 Still physics 101. Newton laws.
  • 4 5
 I'm sorry, but all three of Newton's laws contradict what you are saying.

1st law: An object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an net external force

2nd law: The sum of forces (F) on an object is equal to the mass (m) of that object multiplied by the acceleration vector (a) of the object: F = ma

In this case, as you say, for a bike that doesn't squat, we have no (or little) movement. Using this, we can say that the acceleration is equal to zero, therefore the force stopping the bike squatting is equal to the mass.

3rd law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body

Sounds like equal and opposites to me.
  • 2 2
 I guess he tries to say that if the bike doesn't squat when riding over an obstacle like a root or stone then the weight of the bike plus its rider has to be moved over that obstacle and thereby energy is needed. You have to pedal the weight over that thing. On the other hand when your suspension is doing the job for you only a small part of that energy is needed.

I guess... :-)
  • 2 2
 Previously all were fighting each other why a SQUAT is bad, justified by the physics, now all are fighting why the SQUAT is good justified by the same physics. The physics unchanged. The prices unchanged.
  • 8 0
 I think you need to differentiate between force and energy - and the way it is worded in the review is simply nonsensical:

"He feels that with a concentric pivot the bike will bob, but more of the energy from your legs will be transferred into the chain and cassette to drive the bike forward rather than prevent the bike from sinking under your weight."

With the bob described above, you have suspension movement induced by pedaling and are thus expending energy. How exactly is more energy transferred into forward movement in this example than in a case where there is no suspension movement and thus no energy lost in the suspension?
  • 2 1
 Huh, they talked about a motorcycles... But the motorcycles has a MOTOR and not the pedals! It's a same old story again. Just another bike company in a game.
  • 11 2
 bazbails> I did not say anything different, but force is not energy. When you stay on your pedal, or on the ground, there is a force from your mass under gravity and one from ground in opposite direction, having a single concentric pivot or not doesn't change anything. When nothing move, no energy is wasted (with simplification).

If your bike squat, there is height difference, so energy is used into pedal bob, and part of this energy is wasted in heat into the shock (hydraulic charge). That's why pedal bob is bad and why most of bike suspension designers try to avoid it at all cost (even for DH rig that almost never pedal).
  • 1 0
 @ Mac-Aravan
Also don't forget about the chain.
In such design the force applied through the chain is even helping to compress the suspension vs anti-squat designs.

But the truth is also this suspension is very supple.

I think one should just know all the pros and cons and make his choice according what/where he going to ride.
  • 6 4
 Where do all you arm chair physics majors and mechanical engineers come from when these reviews come out!? The amount of comments along these functions makes me think that engineers are obsessed with bikes.
  • 9 0
 engineers obsessed with mechanical devices?!? Sheer lunacy I tells ya!
  • 1 1
 Why one must to have an engineer job title or physics major to see, understand and describe a things ?
Anyone other is under interdiction from above ????

Where do the people who think so are come from....*facepalm*.

Engineers and experts are not born.
  • 4 3
 Lol, I am an engineer and just find it funny how people can judge a bike without even riding it.
  • 9 1
 @Siphaeon " Lol, I am an engineer and just find it funny how people can judge a bike without even riding it."

Isn't that kind of the point of this whole science and engineering thing though? Making decisions based on laws and regularities beforehand so you don't have to build everything before you can find out if and how it works?

Leo made a concious decision to design the bike like that - and while I have no idea how this thing will ride as the totality of its geometry, the parts used and their set up - it's fairly easy to deduce how the suspension will behave on this kind of design as opposed to for instance an Orange 222.

Also, I don't think anyone is judging the bike negatively. It looks like a great effort and worthy of praise. Most of the criticism is aimed at the review and its explanations of the way the rear suspension supposedly works.
  • 11 1
 It's nice to have people involved to the comments. We would feel sad if nobody had anything to say about our design. Cheers everyone!

@bikecustomizer Yeah Pole is yet another bike company but we are people as well. Old story would be that we would by a catalogue frame and put stickers to the side to make it faster. Our job is to make people happy with our products and have some adventures. Here is my personal Pinkbike profile if you want to take a look who's products made me happy earlier. www.pinkbike.com/u/cosaleo

"Huh, they talked about a motorcycles..."

We try to take influences from other places so we could create something new. I like to say: "If you have ten engineers working on a problem, would one more make a difference?".
  • 2 0
 @polebicycles
"Old story" I mean previously there were many discussions about pros and cons of such suspensions vs others.

"Huh, they talked about a motorcycles..." + "But the motorcycles has a MOTOR and not the pedals!"
That is full quotation.

I'm pretty sure that your company will make also the another suspension designs in the next years.
Profile followed.

"...would one more make a difference?" - I would.
  • 1 0
 @bikecustomizer "I'm pretty sure that your company will make also the another suspension designs in the next years.
Profile followed."

And where did you get this crazy idea from? Wink
  • 1 0
 From where they all are coming in Smile
So, there will be no other suspension designs ??? Strange.
  • 6 0
 If your bike doesn't squat, it won't have dat ass.
  • 1 0
 @bikecustomizer

By crazy idea I meant: it's very likely we will have different designs. We are designers after all Smile

I can tell that I'm already on it. We are testing a linkage design for 29" / 650B+ bike with proper folding option.
  • 2 0
 Seriously love the fold up feature. That alone, is next level shit. Sell me a DH that can comfortably be carried on my back for a few hours. We will ride the out of bounds.
  • 2 0
 @speed10 contact me on a private message if you are really interested. We have a DH bike in the process with folding feature.
  • 4 1
 Hopefully it doesn't fold sideways.
  • 6 0
 Nice bike.

But I suspect the long chainstays and steep seat angle are a consequence of the BB pivot, rather than a design requirement.

I've built a similar bike, a BB pivot single speed. But I wanted to keep the chaninstays short, which limited my travel to 90mm. and with a 26" wheel.

www.pinkbike.com/photo/10023476

But to me, it just proves, all things work. As long as the bike is well made and put together doesn't do anything too silly, it'll be fast under a good rider.
  • 6 0
 I thought that the consensus among frame designers was that a concentric single pivot was ok for a slopestyle bike but not for a bike designed to be actually ridden off road...
  • 2 1
 Am I wrong in thinking the new demo has a concentric system too?
  • 1 0
 I don't trust concentric pivot bikes, for many reasons, even if I like the simplicity of this one. Maybe if I try it I will change my mind, but now I can't trust it works better than a higher pivot bike, in any way.
  • 7 0
 @medievalbiking yes you are. The pivot location of the loxer link is not the location of the instant center of the wheel, therefore it don't works the same.
  • 2 0
 Unfortunately relying on consensus is not very innovative, remember when the general consensus by the experts said the world was flat, that. Good job Pole for challenging a lot of our norms and making a bike, that opinion said wouldn't work, perform so well... (in the opinion of our tester of course). This may not be the way forward, or close to the optimum (which Pole freely admit in these here comments) and whilst we might understand the laws of physics the application of them is a lot more difficult, so please keep up the experimentation, whilst I keep on enjoying my climb to the top of my favorite descent on my slack head angled bike that consensus says won't climb...
  • 8 0
 I would like to ride this, only because it just seems so wrong, maybe it's just crazy enough to work!
  • 5 0
 Wonder if a Mucky Nutz guard would help the shock bush last longer and a Lizard skin on the shock stanchion, it's what I used to run on my old Mongoose Teocali which had an interrupted seat tube. Looks good though, would love to test ride one.
  • 9 0
 Yes, a Mucky Nuts or similar would help and a Lizard Skin would work wonders, but your friends might bully you for your retro 90's bike. If you had an inline shock with no piggy back, you could turn the shock 180 degrees to keep it clean.
  • 9 0
 They already bully me for my green Enduro shorts, I can live with a 90's retro bike Smile
  • 1 0
 What's wrong with green? More importantly, what colour do they advocate? For shorts. Lol.
  • 5 0
 They all wear boring black, wait until they see my Orange shorts, it will blow their mind!
  • 1 0
 Or you can buy new 'zocchi shock, which comes with custom guard.

mountainridermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/14_Marzocchi_amortiguadores.jpg
  • 1 0
 We have tried to rig similar to Rockshox but not succeeding very good. That's very simple way to protect the shock. Good job Marzocchi.
  • 7 0
 I had a test run on the prototype at yak attack Nepal and it truly is an amazing piece of kit, I've been waiting on the review ever since and it sums the bike up perfectly.
  • 4 0
 I dig the unique looks, and find it interesting that it's the same weight as the carbon Range just tested. For my money I'd go with the Norco at 500$ more, but if I lived in Finland I'd probably go with this bike. Nice work Pole
  • 6 1
 I've ridden a few bb pivot bikes & if you don't mash the pedals and have a good shock tune then bob is minimal, oval chainrings help too
  • 6 0
 Hmm, interesting comment about the oval rings, that would be good to try.
  • 3 0
 Actually... you are right. I didn't think of it. Brilliant!!!
  • 1 0
 I seem to remember it being something about evening out the power stroke but I could be wrong
  • 6 0
 I'm half way through that review and I have to say, the things I read give me a severe boner.
  • 4 0
 It's just the morning for me.
  • 2 0
 Too late for that over here Razz
  • 4 0
 Cool. I love that it folds up on itself, though I question the effectiveness of strapping an entire bike to the pack like a pair of skis.
  • 2 0
 Great review thanks. Interesting to see someone take a different direction with frame design.

Two questions;

1. The reviewer talks about a "linkage" on two occasions - I don't see one, am I missing something here?

2. Whats the bikes characteristics on the brakes?
  • 3 1
 Thanks for the support

1. Your not missing anything. The 'Pole Link' is a brand name given to the system. Its more of a Pole Pivot really, just one pivot that rotates around the bottom bracket, the swingarm is solid.

2. Thanks to the slack head angle, fork dive is limited at the front under braking, whereas with a steeper HA the fork will dive more under braking.
At the rear, there was little effect to note when braking, maybe squatting slighty?
  • 6 0
 Hi meta!

"1. The reviewer talks about a "linkage" on two occasions - I don't see one, am I missing something here?"
By a link we usually talk about at least too pieces connected together by a link. In PoleLink the BB holds inside the only link we have on the bike. Many times linkage is used in common dialect about bikes which have multiple links to gain different leverage or bike characteristics.

"2. Whats the bikes characteristics on the brakes?"
The suspension is active under braking. It rather tends to squat under braking to reduce the nose dive effect.
  • 3 1
 How is the suspension active under braking? Sure the rear end isn't going to physically lock out like a Pyga, but this bike should suffer the same problems as any other single pivot with the brake mounted on the swingarm surely?

Also could you explain this?
"He believes that a bike with strong anti-squat can actually be less efficient, as there will always be a downward force on the bike as you pedal; if your bike doesn't squat, there is energy being lost somewhere in order to support your body weight""

Where is this energy being lost?
  • 2 1
 @gabriel-mission9
"How is the suspension active under braking? Sure the rear end isn't going to physically lock out like a Pyga, but this bike should suffer the same problems as any other single pivot with the brake mounted on the swingarm surely?"
The pivot point is different. You need to look at the leverage points.

"Also could you explain this?
"He believes that a bike with strong anti-squat can actually be less efficient, as there will always be a downward force on the bike as you pedal; if your bike doesn't squat, there is energy being lost somewhere in order to support your body weight"""

If bike has more than 100% anti squat it means that the bike tends rise under pedalling forces. So when you use the pedals you actually try to lift your own mass. Also when bike compresses when you stand on the pedals the chain tension will try to keep the bike up when you hit the bumps. Also the rear wheel wants to slow down when hitting big hits. Some people say that it doesn't matter if you have speed. I say that all these events don't care about speed because if the tires are on the ground the speed is irrelevant. Again Neko think Mulally in Hafjell is a good example of zero anti squat.
  • 3 1
 But speed does matter. If your rear wheel is rotating at 180rpm, and the action of your suspension compressing requires the cassette to rotate forward at 60rpm this will have no negative effects on the suspension. If your rear wheel is rotating slower than 60rpm then your suspension will be hindered.

With the pedalling efficiency thing, the less the chassis moves during pedalling the better. Most energy lost through "pedal bob" is lost into the rear damper. If you can stop the damper from cycling you effectively improve efficiency. Saying "So when you use the pedals you actually try to lift your own mass" makes no sense. More stress is put on the system yes, but no energy is lost. Saying the bikes inherant pedal bob improves efficiency just isnt true, and shows a lack of understanding of how these systems actually function.

As for the braking thing, yes moving the main pivot point makes a difference, but it is tiny. Unless you are putting the main pivot up near the headtube or 3 feet behind the rear axle, there will be almost no difference at all. Moving it up or down a few inches from the bb will have no noticeable effect.

And no matter where the main pivot is, the suspension is going to get less active the harder you pull your brake. Moving the pivot won't reduce the amount of feedback, it will just change the way the feedback is felt.
  • 2 0
 @gabriel-mission9, I think the designer is referring to a scenario where there is more then 100% antisquat but is neglecting to address anywheres between 0% to 100%. Too much of it is just as inefficient as not enough. Starting at 0% the effects of the chain tension are cancelled and going towards 100% will also cancel the effect of the acceleration forces but at the expenses of pedalkickback. This is where a four bar/ VPP/Dw Link will always perform better then a single pivot as the chain growth and pedal kickback will taper off quickly going into the travel. More antisquat with less Pedal Kickback.

A better strategy for him if he was really concerned about pedal kickback would have been to stay between 0- 50% anti squat with the single pivot or go the fsr route with about 60-70% with negligible chain growth.
  • 3 1
 @Gilo Very good thinking I agree with this philosophy and I have concepts on my drawing board which are like this. It's not that simple to make it work with the mechanical side. It's easy to draw the side view of the bike and then say that this is perfect. The wheels, shock, stress, and frame stiffness gives you a bit more challenge.

You can not generalize the rate of anti squat by a linkage type. Many systems have very high (120% to 190%) anti squat values. You can go this address to look at the bikes. linkagedesign.blogspot.fi/2014/09/pole-rinna-yla-275-2015.html Some systems even have rising anti squat values. I think the under 100% is good place to be but also the leverage ratio needs to be taken in to the thinking as a whole. It loks that our bike will bob like a pogo stick but it's not like that. Again, look at the review. Paul is a very good rider and he has made very truthful review in good and bad.

@gabriel-mission9 the rpm doesn't matter if you think the about the wheel on the ground. The event happens in same distance regardless the speed.

If we look at the @paulaston review as a whole we see that the bike overall performance is very good. The bicycle design is always a compromise of many things. The challenge with new design is to find out a suitable shock characteristics, transmission characteristics, geometry and try to fit these all together with mechanical challenges of the bicycle frame. The easiest thing for us then would be just to copy already proven design and try to market it with different logo? What we are doing differently is that we look at the whole bike in the another point of view. The bike is fast but also fun to ride and it has a clear segment.

If we only look at the drivetrain on the paper, the bike may look at crap in certain philosophy but if you actually ride the bike and you get very good feeling and it's fast, shouldn't we look at the philosophy yet again if we are missing something?
  • 3 1
 Every point that @gabriel-mission9 has raised on this page is entirely valid. But the responses from @polebicycles are breathtaking in their attempt to deny the accepted physics informing suspension bike design. The bike also seems to be a nightmare from an engineering point of view - if the statement that the swingarm pivots on the crank axle is true that would indicate a complete disregard for the intended purpose and context of use of engineered components. Some riders have apparently found the bike appealing. Riding the bike though may not turn out to be so rewarding because you will have to wear the poor ride, the suspension bob, the wasted energy and the regularly destroyed BB bearings and races as the cost of that attraction. Perhaps this review exists because Pinkbike has grown tired of physics and thought it necessary to give fantasics equal time.
  • 1 0
 Many thanks for educational data from gabriel-mission9 and shame polebicycles they did acknowledged this.
  • 5 1
 Why am I writing in Italics? and that is an incredible and sexy looking bike! And a backpackable bike is the future
  • 5 0
 This frame is like fresh air, and carbon free :-)
  • 1 0
 2nd bike reviewed in a row that has Highroller II's front and rear. Looking through the Dirt 100 Highroller front and rear seems to be the most common Factory Spec for Trail bikes.

After purchasing a new (used) wheelset that came with Highroller II's I have the option of running them front and rear, or mix and matching with Purgatory or Ground Control.

Right now I have Highroller II on the front and Ground Control on the rear for a mix of grippy front/fast rear and weight savings about half a pound rotating weight.

I am unable to test any setup due to the 2 to 3 feet of snow on the ground. I would be interested in the insight of anybody with experience with High Roller II's (or a similar high grip/slow rolling tire) front and rear vs. grippy front / fast rolling rear.
  • 1 0
 Thats a pretty standard setup...I run a 2.4 HR2 front and 2.3 HR2 rear when it's tacky and will swap out the rear for something faster rolling when it's dry
  • 3 1
 I'm surprised Specialized hasn't ripped on this company yet, this is a very well done trail-bike version of a P.Slope, even has the same seat tube yoke! Props to Pole, I'm keen on this whip, hope the best for them!!!
  • 2 0
 Thanks! P.Slope BB is very different from us. The yoke is very common in the industry.
  • 1 0
 Thank you for the clarification, sweet bike!
  • 3 0
 The new rider / reviewer profiles are cool. I like how it gives a little introduction of the person who's doing the riding. Keep it up PB!
  • 4 0
 I had a COVE hooker like this years ago was the most fun bike ever, this bike will be a blast
  • 3 0
 Lots of discussion re the rear suspension, test report mentioned issues with bearings and bushings... Me, I ride hardtails, absolutely wonderful they are.
  • 3 0
 "More importantly, does pedal-bob really matter on a mountain bike?"

On a bike specifically designed for enduro? YES , yes it does matter very very much.
  • 1 0
 Any plans to build in a gearbox. Would be ideal with no chain growth to deal with. The design philosophy about the geometry reminded me of this interview www.bikeradar.com/blog/article/interview-chris-porter-on-his-custom-nicolai-ion-16-41053
  • 3 0
 Really cool bike. It's nice to seem something truly unique out there, especially when it could be innovative.
  • 2 0
 No comments on the impact of forward arc of rear axle given low single pivot positioning? does it "hang" a bit over larger / square edge bumps?
  • 4 2
 Nope. It's moving forward over the bumps.

You can check a short clip how it rides from here: youtu.be/IodpLW0h7A8

Here's more about the design: www.pole.fi/rinne-yla/#concentric-pivot-point
  • 3 2
 Nope. It's moving forward over the bumps.

You can check a short clip how it rides from here youtu.be/IodpLW0h7A8

Here's more about the design www.pole.fi/rinne-yla/#concentric-pivot-point
  • 4 2
 Nope. It's moving forward over the bumps.

You can check a short clip how it rides from here [http://youtu.be/IodpLW0h7A8]

Here's more about the design [http://www.pole.fi/rinne-yla/#concentric-pivot-point]
  • 2 0
 Yes, pretty video but let's be honest that line taken wouldn't have challenged an average 100mm travel bike. If it was a few metres either way over the real rocks it might have been more demonstrative
  • 2 1
 I can assure you wouldn't want to ride there with 100mm bike Big Grin The lens deforms the picture The slope is so steep I could only see about five meters in front of me. There is no trail and I needed to memorise the line on the way up.

Here is a video of our prototype testing at old SRAM test track. This bike has 165mm of travel. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ybg4-GXi7s

I can't really proof you anything on internet. You need to ride the bike to know. I won the Finnish downhill championships in Master with the same bike in video above. The video of seed run is here: youtu.be/JVd3OHXWNno
We know the track is short but you also need to know rider must put all in if you want to win.

More videos can be found on our channel here: www.youtube.com/channel/UCCDBLo5lWmSym8Z-xDQ59GA
  • 1 0
 Much more convincing videos. Wish you well with this design
  • 2 0
 Thanks for the excellent review guys! I really appreciated the reviewer credentials, as well as the feeling of an honest review. Keep it up!
  • 2 0
 So... a long, slack and interesting looking bike which likes agressive riding? I like.
  • 2 3
 Intriguing, though IMO a few things need some work. Cables, run them all between the shock mounts - leave the top tube clean for lifting over obstacles. Redesign the forward shock mounts, they look like a cheap afterthought. Somehow lose the gusset, maybe a curved or inverted "Y" seat tube at the bottom. Slacken up the seat tube angle. And sorry but, send those decals back to the drawing board. Otherwise this may be a game changer.
  • 4 0
 Why would you want the seat angle to be slacker?
  • 1 0
 Well... as mentioned in the article, the long wheel base/65° HTA suggests small DH that can pedal to the top. Most armchair engineers are going to say 73/74° max ESTA in this category. Rocky Mountain tried the steep STA 4 years ago on a newly designed AM Slayer, they called it 'Straight Up Geometry' Needless to say it was scrapped the fallowing year.
  • 2 0
 You're not allowed to not like the bike. If Pb likes it we are supposed to sing along. Even if it leaves much to be desired.
  • 2 0
 @dirtdoctor The steep seattube is needed when working with long geometry. Also it helps on ascending to get the most of the rider weight (thighs, pelvis) on front. In downhill usually slacker seattube is needed when we want the seat to be out of the way. In telescopic seat post age we don't need that. We just make the standover very low and the seat tube short as well.
  • 4 3
 Better keep my negative, design-hating comments to myself this time. Good job finding nice things to say about the bike though! There, that's positive...
  • 1 0
 I will wait the day when a truly affordable full suspension bike is made. You know, there are people who can't afford 2k+ bike, but still want to enjoy riding.
  • 2 1
 Nice report, interesting bike. Would like a test ride. Maybe I'll check out their webpage for info.
  • 3 1
 What a wierd bike...that appears to work well. Go figure!
  • 4 1
 Sweet bike. great review
  • 3 0
 I allso hope that they arrange some testing days in one of the bikeparks in here...
  • 2 0
 We'll do that.
  • 2 0
 It's chromed, where do I sign!?
  • 1 0
 Nice review Paul! Nice to see you on the Pinkbike team too. I think the last time I saw you was in Alpe d'huez 09...
  • 2 1
 I like this bike. Good price, great spec, and new ideas. Excellent write up too. More of these please. Thanks.
  • 2 0
 This looks like airborne, iron horse and yeti had a baby!
  • 2 0
 Tämä on minun seuraava pyörä! mahtava 3
  • 2 0
 Something about the way it looks reminds me of bikes from 10-15 years ago.
  • 1 0
 Wish I had the money for this. Looks like the bike I've been looking for....
  • 1 0
 @polebicycles What do you feel are the benefits of the concentric pivot vs a high pivot with idler pulley?
  • 1 0
 Same bad thing as commencal Meta, rear shox full of mud, not good at all...
  • 1 1
 I cringed when I saw this throwback design. I would literally throw this one back, maybe it will evolve into a newer design eventually...
  • 2 0
 awesome...
  • 1 0
 That is sick. Made me want a more active platform for my ibis
  • 2 0
 Very nice!
  • 2 1
 Russell Brand on enduro bike Smile
  • 2 0
 --
  • 2 1
 No I dont want a bobing frame!!!
  • 1 0
 I like this, looks like a mini Tranny or Makalu!!!
  • 1 0
 nice. reminds me of the Haro VL120 a couple of years back.
  • 1 1
 What?? No trolling from AngryNipples on this thread yet? He must have crawled back under his rock, BRAVO!
  • 1 0
 great review
great place to do it
my country Smile
  • 1 0
 this bike was ahead of its time
  • 1 0
 urt?
  • 2 3
 There you go, googled that for you... Wink
www.pole.fi/rinne-yla
  • 5 1
 I think he mean URT not URL! Its not a Unified Rear Triangle design, which has the bottom bracket located on the swingarm.
  • 2 5
 It's a form of URT, but at the limit: the BB is located on the swingarm and on the pivot, so it doesn't move like on a URT.
  • 8 1
 ... so it's not URT. It's a concentric pivot link Big Grin
  • 2 0
 The bottom bracket is in the rear triangle, so it's URT. But the bottom brackets also in the front triangle, so it's not URT.
  • 1 0
 mindblown Smile
  • 1 1
 way to copy the old sx design....
  • 1 0
 The Magic is in the Hole
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