Pinkbike Poll: If Racing Does Improve the Breed, Will You Trade up to 29-inch Wheels?
To be sure, 29-inch wheels are not going away on the World Cup Downhill circuit. Santa Cruz is in, Trek is following shortly, and Specialized won't want to be one-upped in a genre that it has invested so heavily in. There are others lined up to play and the 29er rumor mill is on fire. Plenty of support from suspension, wheel, and tire makers is available to race programs, and major players who are not yet present will be launching forks and wheel-goods later this season.
It takes a lot of time and money to bring a new wheel size to professional downhill racing. Tire and rim development is a given, but frame geometry and kinematics must be prototyped and thoroughly tested before teams will sign off on such a significant departure from the norm. With the top five racers often crossing the line on the same minute, nobody with a real shot at a podium finish would risk an unproven mount. The bottom line, however, is when heavy hitters like the Santa Cruz Syndicate show up to the World Cup with 29-inch wheels, they are not guessing.
Big wheel downhill bikes could fail miserably. Great ideas often do. But, if 29ers do start winning World Cup downhills, there can be no doubt that they will enter production shortly after. Understandably, unless you are contesting for points or podiums, your existing wheel size is probably more than enough to float your boat, but could you live with the knowledge that your technology is second rate?
So, today's question is:
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What if, what as, would it, might be....
Btw are we timing our DH runs? Who cares if you are faster....
I personally don't like 29rs and I've ridden a few, they just don't compliment my riding and what I want out of mountainbiking, to just have fun, I found I made a lot more mistakes on them, missed my lines more and the feel too cumbersome, if anything I want to go back from 650b to 26" on my next bike, I just know it will be hard to source a decent 2nd hand 26" bike here in Oz when the time comes.
I enjoy my 29 HT and AM bikes...but the Mega 290 XL already feels like a monster downhill, the momentum and loads they generate are massive and I still don't feel totally on top of it....riding a 29" DH may be well beyond my skills...I think XL Phoenix 27.5 is enough for me....I reckon you need to be tall and or really skilful to get the most out of a 29 DH..
In most comments ot sounds like a 27.5 (or 26 for that matter) wheeled bike is by definition more fun to ride, and better suited to park riding than a 29er. But I've ridden al lot of bikes that had the same wheelsize and still felt very very different.
A pro will want a bike that inspires confidence and handles well. Not generally bad traits for the average rider, too, I'd think.
And current WC tracks still differ quite a lot, as do riding styles, even of the riders at the absolut top.
I think that is still a big difference to Formula 1 (since some people already made that comparison) where all tracks, with only Monaco as a main exception, demand the same qualities from car and driver.
It's not as if in DH racing all tracks were ultrasteep, without any tight sections or jumps, whereas park or "average rider" tracks were the exact opposite, so that a bike that handles well on one type of course couldn't on the other.
Since, for example, some manufacturers are now designing their 29ers with chainstays as short, or even shorter, than the ones on their 27.5ers, I would not want to predict how these bikes will perform.
We will see this season if specifically designed 29er DH bikes are superior to ones with smaller wheels, and if so, if that's the case on all types of tracks. And if that happens we can try in the year after that, if they also feel better in the park.
I laugh as most people commenting are all just about " having fun" and dont care about being as fast as they can be....
....are the same people calling for UCI regulations on wheels size. Wtf is wrong with you?!!
You dont HAVE to ride these things. In fact you benefit from cheaper prices on used bikes from people who might move up in size.
You are not a RACER. You are a rider.
Theres nothing wrong with that,but please dont beg the overlords to put rules and constraints on my sport just because you cant get past your "29ers are gay " bias.
Go ride your bike, Im watching World Cup racing.
And..yes ,I see most things as connected . Nothing operates in a vacuum and to make emotional arguments devoid of any larger thought is what children do.
I may not hand walk my points along for everyone, but dont have time to think for everyone, too.
Personally I resisted 29ers until I fell in love riding one - And I am 5'10''. A well designed long travel wagon wheeler can actually be loose in technical terrain and incredibly fun to ride. + Any experienced rider will be able to whip it, scrub & enjoy quality airtime once the learning curve is conquered.
Santa Cruz assumes its leadership position again with this piece of work. Their innovative attitude and the ability to go from experimental to refined bikes is impressive as always. Props to Roskopp's crew for pushing the limits of our sport as they have done in the past with creations like the Tallboy LTC a few years ago and the Nomad in 2005.
Now that door has been opened obviously others will follow suit and I'll bet that most of the major players are working on prototypes right now.
If I was going to invest in a new DH bike right now I'd take a pause for a few months and see how this goes before spending my cashola.
That said riding your bike and having a blast is the goal. Who cares what size wheels you ride - Whatever puts wind in your sail...
Everyone "Will" be forced to ride clown wheels if they want anything new.
www.pinkbike.com/news/its-alive-santa-cruz-reveals-the-v10-29er-2017.html
"Greg practically forced me to try the bike," reveals Loris Vergier. "I tried it once in testing, but went straight back to my original 27.5 inch bike because that's what felt fastest across the length of the test track. But Greg insisted I give the 29er another shot. So I did, and I felt like it was still slower. The clocks don't lie though, and I was consistently posting quicker times on the new bike compared to the old—and this was on my local track! That's when I realized the new bike was deceptively quick."
You could be right though, I never did get out of Pro class
I was going to keep going on this topic, but slowly went down the rabbit hole of having to then dictate things like axle widths, tire widths, wheelbases, etc etc etc.
What a world though if it was that heavily regulated!
And I stand by what I said...if you are shaving seconds by riding a 160mm bike, you aren't riding a proper DH track
Since, ive raced nearly every big course in the us,you should just stop now.
This has now become a circular argument. Good job going pro at an older age, you must love the sport, which we have in common.
I'm heading to the trails, enjoy your weekend
All Strava is about is ego boosting!
The reality is that free ride/dh 29ers require more skill to ride or they'd up feeling bulky to some people. They are faster into corners and have more contact surface to have better traction through corners. And if you buy the right one they are super nimble, everywhere.
As long people are having fun, who cares
If it's designed to do so, a 29er can be much "snappier" than its small wheeled predecessor.
All while nobody has even raced a 29" DH bike yet! Let alone proven over time whether or not they will provide Any consistent amount of an advantage across such varied conditions present in every track. Even in XC and Enduro, 29" bikes are not unanimously sweeping the podiums all day every day. And people are so concerned that they all of a sudden lost an edge in DH!?
Even just 2 years ago, if you wanted to race a 29" DH bike people would have pointed and laughed and never taken the concept seriously. Now all of a sudden people are saying its not fair!? Come on. It's Gravity, and a bike, and a rider. The comparison to motorized sport regulations and engine displacement would be more like different gravity classifications, as other than your legs, that's the only place acceleration is coming from. So maybe we should put people in different "wattage" classifications since we cannot alter gravity.
If you've ridden a longer travel 29er, you will know that it is still a bike. It works very well in some situations, and not the best in others. Particularly when the trail is steep and rough and requires dynamic movement over the back wheel, and when the trail demands sudden changes in direction and acceleration. There is just not as much room to move around and absorb terrain through your legs without that wheel coming up and making itself known, and its more rotating mass to slow down and speed up. Especially as the travel gets longer, the trail gets steeper, and the impacts get bigger. My point? I think 27.5 DH bikes are still going to be perfectly competitive, and 26/27/29 will each have their own advantages from one rider to the next. But it will all still come down to the rider no matter what wheel size they are on.
#screwlogicihaveanopinionbasedonnothingbutfear #trumplogic
Wheelsize on it's own does little, there's many variables that must come into place for a rider to achieve whatever his goal is - in this case Winning a World Cup race and World Cup overall. Every single racer including Minnaar said it to Steve Jones.
Now as much as wheel size matters little on the clock or fun meter, it matters a lot for the wallet and for waste generation, particularly when it comes to tyres. It also takes more space in warehouses in shops all over the world. Simply because you need new frame/ fork and wheels.
What bike media just greatly helped manufacture can simply be summed up by few lines from "Men who stare at the goats":
- Mind control project was just a scam to make Russians believe we work on mind control
- So why do you keep on working on it, and why do we spend so much money on it?
- because Russians started their own mind control program in response and now we cannot stay behind
That being said, if you are spending money on a NEW bike, you might as well at least consider a platform or product that might make biking in said forests and mountains smoother, better or in some other way, more fun. One could argue that good and plenty suspension reduce the fun factor on one level. Certainly at slower speeds. On the other hand, a 29" tired downhill bike might roll over even BIGGER piles of roots and rocks. And that to me sounds like MORE fun!
So what is the issue with more fun again? Cause, mountain biking is pretty much the summation and definition of "Fun".
People who are shouting loudest against 29ers in DH really should try one, they'd be surprised at how much things have moved on in recent years...
'Haters gonna hate' I guess.
Where I ride DH most of the time (Mont-Ste-Anne, Canada), most trails are really rough, steep and technical. I think I would love a 29in DH bike over here. It would be awesome to float over these rocks and roots a little easier.
I don't agree with this statement we hear everywhere ''29in are faster but 26in are more fun''. I think that for some people and some places, 29in can be more fun. I think it's good to have different options.
I rode a Slash 9.9 in WBP and that was a blast
Like, I've ridden 26" wheels for 10 years. So I have no compulsion to change. I just want to keep riding my bike.
As and when I come to buy a new bike, and something pops up at a good price and happens to be 29" then I'm not going to be all like "Ew no." I'll just buy it and see what it's like.
Bikes make a tiny difference compared to rider talent so id say setup and rider preference to make them feel as confident as possible is more the advantage then the wheels themselves so if a few feel comfortable and therefore faster on them then go for it but don't think that it now means everyone has to go 29.
its classic "he beat me with 29 wheels so 29ers must be faster" nah hes probably just a faster rider
That being said I love the 29er it just feels right for me with my proportions. Would I jump on a fad? No. Would I ride what feels good? Yes
There was no answer in this survey that said "I'll try it and give an honest comparison". Fan the flames!
Dont think I will be seeing Brendog on one anytime soon, also, I cant see how they would be nimble enough for "fun" DH riding like bike park stuff, fair enough if you just wanna go mad fast but not everyone does
I'd be hella surprised if Shaw makes the jump from "frequent top ten" rider to number three just because of wheel size. There's a lot of talented guys out there and the 29er advantage isn't enough to beat a Danny Hart, Aaron Gwin, Gee Atherton, Troy Brosnan, etc. And that's not even considering the other fast top ten/top 20 guys like Brayton, Brendog, and so on.
People give wheel size and bikes in general way too much credit. For gods sake, Gwin won Leogang without a chain and that is not a strictly tech track where you wouldn't need it.
At this point all the V10 29er does is make those guys feel confident in their bikes, which is a good thing. Everything else is just speculation.
People are already claiming this race will prove or disprove the 29er advantage, but that is ridiculous statistically. They've put 3 of the worlds top ten/20 riders on a bike not too far from what they used before. If they win, that only proves they are in that elite list for a reason, not that they won because of the wheelsize. Now if 3 lower ranked top 50 guys kept winning 1/2/3 that may be an indication they are onto something.
That said it seems to sell bikes, tbh I am more interested in how 29 will play out in trail bikes. Will it ever be as good as smaller wheels at longer travel "thrashing" bikes?
Yeah, just like you say.
For all i know there's a lot of pros out there who theoretically do not even benefit from 29ers.
I do not see the likes of Sam Hill get on too well with big wheels, because it'll most likely just hinder their style of riding. I see how they definitely will benefit a guy like minnaar because of his size and riding style of (smoothly) ploughing through everything.
As even the syndicate stated, it's horses for courses and that goes for the rider as well as the bike.
I think the EWS has shown us something very important. The top guys will choose wheel size based on feel, not on cold hard physics theory. 29ers have not started dominating there in any way, so i'd say that's to count for something. And diversity is great for the consumer.
My personal fear is just that they will streamline and make 29ers a new "standard".
BUT! I wouldn't buy a DH bike of ANY wheel size until the industry has settled itself down.
Industry big wigs said they'd run 26 along with 27.5 and then shortly after they abruptly made 26 obsolete and deliberately pulled a load of stuff off the market so we can't buy. Then made out "there's no market for it" to force everyone to buy 27.5. Horse sh*t!
Fair play, 26 had a good run but imo it was a shady, insidious move by many in the industry and it's left a bad taste in people's mouths right into the present day.
For example I remember buying my Evil Undead and then being pissed at Evil for abruptly pulling the bike off the market, no official article/newsletter, nothing. It was only this month I discovered how smaller bike companies left out of the information loop work to survive when things like this happen, what changes & decisions they have to make. (Check out the Q&A with Bryson Martin @ DVOSuspension - Apr 24, 2017).
So....now after only a few seasons racing 27.5, here we go again.
Yet again the army of sanctimonious clowns are back telling us to stop being so butthurt. Like oh yeah, because most are just fed up about actual wheel size, we just don't wanna change wheel size....right.
It's all about the money and it's all it ever was. If bikes were more affordable / if salary's matched inflation /if money grew on trees, people wouldn't be so pissed off about all these new standards in & out the revolving doors. That real world situation tho.
And yeah, still riding my 26" Evil....
I ride a 26" V10 but I am not a racer just like to play in the woods, so I probably wouldn't buy one but I love that people are.
On a serious note, I dont get why theres so many people saying its unfair to let 29ers in if they are faster, and that it should be regulated. E.g. being better for bigger riders and giving a disadvantage to short guys. So what? In every sport ever genetics have played a role. If your body doesnt build a lot of muscle fast you probably will not make it as a professional bodybuilder. Look at basketball players, should the NBA start with a height restriction because bigger people are in an advantage? Thats life.
Everything in pro MTB is performance oriented, suspension setup, tyre profiles and compounds, frame size is chosen by different people how they like it best for their use. In DH racing its for speed. Rampage maybe sturdy and controllable for big drops and playful for tricks. XC is probably more about weight and efficiency. Why should wheel size be an exception. Let the sport evolve
I want a 27+ because I can run a 2.8" tire and have almost the same diameter as a 29er, but stronger wheels for cheaper (i'm heavy).
I wouldn't go 29DH because I don't race, and any big bike I'm on it's just having fun or goofing off with friends--for that I'll take the smaller wheel sizes to keep things playful. So I answered no.
Value is the most important thing to me. For a shuttle bike I would probably go for a 26" aluminium bike, such as a Wilson or Pulse.
Other: I'll wait to buy until after they work the bugs out and made quality more affordable.
If they keep up this incremental improvement thing, I'll be fine waiting out multiple generations of revisions before making another buying decision. Lets see if my vow to skip Boost and 11/12 speed holds out.
Do I want something that has a higher center of gravity? No
Do I want a wheel size that is further away from the axle? No
Do you want something that rolls over bigger Knar than what you have now? Yes.
Do you want something that looks like gang bangers "
rolling down the street, smoking Endo, sipping on,"... nevermind that, no.
if bike companies build 29" DH dont price us long term bikers who keep bikes longer out, not everyone can afford or wants the " new shiny". new shiny stuff remains a mystery until years later when they find problems, like konas head tube issue, evils frame failures and more. new DOES NOT mean instantly better.
Guys let's be honest. I get it that some people don't like 29ers (I don't have one either) but let's just stick to this and don't try to invent lame excuses when most of us run super slack long travel bikes and go crazy about PRs and KOMs in Strava.
As for Sunday let the best rider win!
Btw I'm super excited for this weekend....can't wait for the racing!
In the end we want faster bikes. Else we'd still be riding the same bikes as we did in the 90ies.
But what if i can keep up with my friends on my non 29er just because we don't time our laps and the advantage for an unskilled rider only makes about 0.001 seconds.
Or maybe you know, i see it as a personal challenge to beat 29ers, because let's face it, if i was to put in a little more training that would by far negate the 29er advantage in any recreational rider out there.
So, while at the elite level equipment may matter, in a recreational environment there's just so many things to improve.
Heck for all i know my buddies ride with badly setup suspension and wrong tire pressures. I'd say that'll more than make up for me missing a little bit of tire diameter ;-)
Don't worry, i got that
I was referring to those people who allready claim it's only because of wheelsize.
Boris summed it up in my opinion.....for all the media talk and massive build up, only two, YES TWO pro teams will be riding them at this first race.
Keep drinking the kool aid - share holders are relying on it for this years 12.5% increase in dividend payments :/
While we're at it, can we add another $2500 to the cost of a new bike, just for grins.
is a shame as it drives the price down on 26 and 650b bikes, is us as buyers that loose out and for what??
Don't see bmx/mx/road racing changing wheel sizes, still as fun and competitive as it always has been.... Like Brendan said its all a level playing field if everyone has the same size wheels.
Just making it less accessible for us, as it is bike industry has way to many standards I'm not keen on another one
For example I need to buy a complete new bike as I can not for the life of me find a new fork that's 1 1/8th. Everything is tapered now
If 29 is best for DH then the last 3-4 years of 650 DH bikes have been a complete scam. There was no reason for them to exist.
check out the closing comments of this......
www.pinkbike.com/news/26-vs-275-vs-29-Wheels.html
im just glad i didnt get a new 27.5" bike as it looks like next year these will face the same fate as my preferred choice of 26" wheels.
you can all ways go with 29" front and 27.5" rear or like i do this days (due to a rear 27.5 repair)27.5 front and 26 rear, i found that i was able to save it from crashing easier then both 27.5
No hate against 29ers, i have a Jeffsy 29 and love it, but not because its fast (my current model Giant Reign is much faster), but fun! That said, looking at a racer like Minaar, 29" Wheels look like they fit him well so why not?
With 29" Enduro bikes, The Following recommended minimum height is 5'8, and while I realize that the Slash and Specialized fit shorter folks like myself, these bikes have 2" less travel than DH rigs. I predict that most of the women's field this year will remain on 27.5. Maybe smaller riders like Danny Hart and Troy Brosnan will stay on 27.5 as well. Who knows?
Ask yourself honestly, If the industry actually provided different sizes in all models 26,27.5,30 What do you think would sell more? Of course some bigger guys are going to opt for a bigger wheeled bike. But if actually given choices the 26 would still be dominate in the average buyers market.
The same negative arguments were made for 27.5 DH bikes a short time ago but now there perfectly acceptable and (fun ) now that dudes are riding rampage and doing free / ride park shit on them.
Just say yes, enjoy the ride and don't follow the f*cking herd.
He's a taller rider and he may feel very at home with the bigger tires and as we all know bigger tires roll over bumps better. Along with their VPP suspension he'll have good traction and braking compliance. Just my hunch.
Who'll win the first race of the season is still anyone's guess.
I won't lie though, I'd love an affordable 29er DH bike. I'm 6'1" and 29ers fit me well. The only issue I'd worry about is the 'affordable' 29er DH bikes will probably have some flimsy wheels. Syndicate doesn't have to worry about it because they ride the best wheels around, ENVE.
So what the MTB world is offering up different sizes? Getting in a snip over 29ers is like getting upset at pants that are sold in a waste width other than 32.
People need to get over it, you don't like? Don't ride. I rode 26 inch wheels for 25 years, after 1 season on a 29er I would never go back to smaller wheels. But you can, you can do what floats your boat. 27.5 is not going anywhere either, its just offering more choice to more riders.
But, there are plenty of aggressive riders on 29? I don't feel that's a fair assumption.
Let's say "short" Aggressive riders.
Look at Josh, the last worldcup he won was on a 26' V-10 long after the rest of the team went 650B. 2 weeks ago Rat's doing a bike check with a 29 Hightower which he seems to be enjoying on his 50to01 highjynx.
But, I full understand!!
I personally haven't had the opportunity to try bigger wheels yet but at the same time my current 3 bikes are still a blast to shred! Shhhhh they are all 3 26"!!
RideOn bud!
If your point is about pros that don't race, they'll all tell you that 26" ain't dead....but the majority don't want to hear that, especially the industry and the media. Many of the best non racing pros still ride DJ and have an all round skill set far above your average "grip and rip" DH rider.
My point is more so that I can't relate to pro level/elite riders (either racers or freeriders).
It'd be great to see a review from weekend warrior style riders, that are just enthusiastic mountain bikers.
All this bollox is what pushed me away from MTB & back into simple BMX.
Monetary rip-off !!!!
So there's a reason you aren't riding 26" wheel that is out of your control? Please elaborate?
people voting yes like Minnar has allready won
Which you guna choose?
It's a no brainier
Trying to keep us out of the DH game, conspiracy(sick, bad people!)
If you're having fun for yourself then keep doing what you're doing!
I personally have never owned a proper DH bike but I have rode tons of DH!