Race & Accessibility in the Mountain Bike Community
You’re not on Pinkbike for current events, but the violent deaths of George Floyd and so many others have been a catalyst for reflection. This is bigger than mountain biking.
Some have criticized us for not speaking sooner, and that’s fair; silence is an implicit endorsement of the status quo. Each time I’ve tried to write something over the past few days I’ve been frustrated by an inability to articulate a way forward, and uncomfortable with my lack of understanding. The truth is we’re not late because we don’t care; we’re late because we needed time to learn; to listen. And while talk is cheap, the first step is simply to acknowledge an issue. So here goes.
Mountain biking has an accessibility problem. It’s just one symptom of the racial inequality and systemic injustice currently spurring protests around the globe.
The sport's lack of diversity is rarely as simple as overt racism—although the stories I’ve heard in the last few days had plenty of that as well. It’s also unequal access and systemic barriers for people of colour, including economic barriers, geographic barriers, and a dearth of MTB heroes.
Our sport requires access to expensive bikes and trails to ride them, and people of colour have disproportionately low access to both. It’s challenging to address inequality in an industry that’s as privileged as this one. It’s a hard sport to get into for communities that have on average a ~41% lower household income, especially when they're limited geographically from access to trails. I grew up middle class, saving up by mowing lawns and doing chores for my first real mountain bike, but it was generational wealth that allowed me to do that.
You can’t be what you can’t see. I can count the number of black pro riders on one hand. I got into riding because I saw Wade Simmons do impossible stuff on a bike, and I identified with him. Sure, riding like Wade is still impossible for me, but that inspiration led to me having a career in the industry. I could pick up an issue of Bike Mag in 1998 and see myself as a pro freerider, but the same can’t be said for young people of colour.
The mountain bike community’s response to athletes and industry expressing support over the last week has been disheartening. There have been countless comments actively diminishing black athletes’ experiences of racism, knee jerk whataboutism, and false equivalencies about looting and extremists. We know that this community is made up of many amazing people, so there has to be a gap in understanding somewhere. It’s tempting to be cynical of lip service wokeness and hashtag activism, but a large number of our community aren’t ready to acknowledge that there’s a problem at all. And that’s a problem.
Whose responsibility is this?
Why should brands care? What’s wrong with marketing only to the people who are most likely to buy your current products? Isn’t a business there to make money rather than address social ills?
It’s everyone’s responsibility because it’s the right thing to do. Continuing to prop up a system that excludes people is wrong, even if it’s easier. And I know that’s why many people across the industry and community are stepping up.
What can the community do to address the problem?
In talking with several people of colour in the cycling industry, it's clear we don't have all the answers today. And they won’t come from me anyway—a middle class white kid from a small farming town in Canada. But here are some of the suggestions we've gotten over the past few days.
• Listen to people who say they’re hurting, educate ourselves, and reflect on our own biases and behaviours
• Take part in the civic process, vote, and make donations to organizations and efforts to fight racial injustice
• Hold companies to supporting the inclusion and diversity they say they want
• Give the industry some time to figure out what that support looks like—it takes time to make good plans for lasting change
• Be persistent, don’t let us or anyone else off the hook to continue pushing for change
What is Pinkbike going to do?
Pinkbike stands in support of POC communities, and in protest of racial injustice everywhere. We want to see systemic barriers to mountain biking removed, and will support efforts to break them down. We’re open to suggestions on how to move forward, and I hope that people will reach out to me personally with their ideas. Here’s what we’re going to start with.
First, we’re going to keep listening. There aren’t nearly enough diverse voices in the industry, and we’re going to make sure we hear them. We’re reflecting on our own biases doing what we can to educate ourselves.
Second, we’re going to amplify voices from groups who are underrepresented in mountain biking. We have a responsibility to use our platform to tell the stories and share the perspectives that we are missing out on right now.
Third, we’ll put our money where our mouth is; we'll announce a donation and resource initiative in the coming days.
And finally, we’re going to take a hard look at how our community interacts with each other. One thing I’ve heard several times this week is that some of the diverse voices that we want to hear more from are afraid of putting themselves out there because of feedback from the comments.
Our platform is no good to people if they don’t feel safe to get up on it. We clearly haven’t done enough to protect those diverse voices, and that’s got to change.
We'll absolutely stay a place that encourages unvarnished, critical discussion on bikes—where misleading marketing gets called out, where bad bikes don’t get a pass, and where you can make dumb jokes for days. But comments that are so toxic that they stop people from taking part are unacceptable.
We will be developing and rolling out new community guidelines in the coming month, as well as putting resources towards enforcing them.
For practice, here’s the first new guideline. No #alllivesmatter or #bluelivesmatter comments. While they're technically inclusive, they're designed to undermine and delegitimize the movement. It’s saying “the status quo is fine, your suffering doesn’t matter” to people who are hurting. #blacklivesmatter has an inclusive subtext—“Black lives matter too,” not “only Black lives matter.” Saying “all lives matter” is like going to an AIDS walk and shouting "All Diseases Matter!" It’s interpreted as a thinly veiled racist statement. Please don’t do it.
Advocating for social change in a privileged hobby like mountain biking may seem insignificant, but our sport’s lack of accessibility is a reflection of the inequality and injustice faced by millions of people. I'll be honest, we’re unsure of what to say or do. But we're uncomfortable with silence, and I hope you are too. We have some ideas, and we understand the tools at our disposal. Mountain biking is our sport, let’s make it better. We’ve got some work to do.
Black Lives Matter.
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I would love that with Chinese accent... Maxxis taya wong way on the weaw of dat owenge
April 2, 2020 "You only get a few voices of sympathy from SJW lunatic camp. Who are also a-holes!"
WAKIdesigns (May 20, 2020 at 2:19)
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@mitochris: because that would go so well with principles of journalism. Like mentioning source of information. Typical stupid liberitarian leftists, social justice warriors approach to "freedom of speech" - paranoia caused by treating yourself as woke enlightened, and seeing general population as bunch of idiots who could get corrupted by a right wing propaganda, and could put you and your convenient set of values in question. Fkng bike site, fkg simple string of information and some fkng idiots needed to politicize it. Get fkd. Get fkd, you are as stupid as those two grannies, this is what you will become. Sour old pricks believing in greater order of the universe, seeing world as place invaded by awful people stopping you from reaching your Elysium. GET FKD.
Many other online environments bring people together in an echo chamber of similar world views, but the thing PB users have in common is a love of riding bikes. This gives an interesting opportunity for those with differing world views to interact, which can help counter some of the increasing polarization we're seeing. If discussions are respectful, this is a good thing.
But posts that cross the line absolutely need to be dealt with to encourage that respectful dialogue.
RoadStain (May 22, 2020 at 6:16)
"Um, the word "helbender" sounds hurtful and may intimidate some people. Mentioning that they are black only makes this fact worse. Not only do they mention the worst place imaginable, they have to bring color in to it.....shameful"
RoadStain (May 22, 2020 at 8:00)
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"@thegoodflow: Just being offended for the people who may or may not be reading...."
It is hilarious and sad at the same time, that you are so dumb.
• bans for overtly sexist, racist, bigoted, etc. comments.
• escalating suspensions and bans for members whose contributions are toxic and not constructive contributions to the community.
• added resources to enforce the rules, either a full-time new role as community moderator, or diverting some resources from other people's roles
Racist
Prejudiced
Conscious Bias
Unconscious Bias.
The "Racist" word is being thrown around very loosely when in fact most people are just biased. We are all Biased , consciously or unconsciously, even people of color. It is important we have these discussions, but stop throwing around the word Racist.
The moderation of an article for a two-hour period is relatively simple. The moderation of every article and comment on the site when dozens of articles are posted every day is more difficult and something that we're working on a solution for.
celesteheadlee.com/racism-vs-discrimination-why-the-distinction-matters
If someone is truly determined to post offensive comments then they could easily create a new account and continue with their sociopathic behaviour, but I'm not convinced that pinkbike is an attractive forum for bonafide trolls. Instead I think that most offensive comments either reflect what the people who write them actually think, or they are the result of poor behaviour/mis-judgement on behalf of their author (we're all thoughtless arseholes sometimes). In either case, the best corrective action is to show the author, and the other readers, that their comment is wrong and/or offensive either by replying, or by down-voting; so far, so status-quo. The only enhancement I recommend is to de-anonymise the up- and down-votes.
The comments section on pinkbike is one of the best examples of discourse I've seen on the internet, and to the silent reader it's clear that offensive comments are challenged by the community. It would be a shame to lose what we have in pursuit of something we're unlikely to obtain.
More broadly, I appreciate pinkbike acknowledging and thinking publicly about this issue, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect a single editorial to present a comprehensive plan that addresses the lack of diversity in mountain biking, when it's primarily an expression of the structural racism that has pervaded most western societies for centuries. This is a good start.
#RemoveWaki
RoadStain (2 days ago) (Below Threshold) show comment
@WAKIdesigns: You of course are smart enough to know what it is exactly that most of the black folks rioting are looking (and looting) for right? Simple two-word answer - "Free Stuff". Six and seven generations deep of wanting more "Free Stuff" as part of reparations for something that the US was not a lone actor of, and today one of the few countries without slave labor (plus the fact that most of the people selling slaves were black).
So, here we are generations later, stereotypical people who behave in a stereotypical way bitching that they are stereotyped. Complaining the same complaints, acting the same actions, and doing NOTHING at all but playing a victim card. Not exactly sure why society owes them all a Bently....but, I guess it does....
What is a shame is the many blacks in the US who do acheive, do excel and do try to move above the actions of their brethren who are cheapened by the actions of their demographic at large.
Well done PB !
@brianpark @sarahmoore - come on
While the U.S. as a whole may seem racist, I think that it is split, and the minority of those who are often stand out because of their beliefs. I can say that while our country might not be diverse in race, or nationality, we are sure diverse in political opinions.
I’m addition, I think both sides of this issue can agree that it is somewhat interesting to watch heated debates over the tiniest things go down on the comment sections. If everyone agreed on things, there would be no point in these comment sections. It is a place to voice your opinion, and get feedback on it. While I do think that some comments cross the line, it isn’t my place to tell someone their political belief is wrong, so a controversial comment can be quite entertaining at times!
Anyways, once you come to the U.S., and visit every city, town, and county here, and listen to what everyone says, then you can make “observations” on this, but until then, they do more harm than good, so just don’t.
One such person who has gone above and beyond in this respect seems to have been met with a significant setback today. Also commendable.
Also, thank you for these words. I support this direction for pinkbike.
@Ecar: Instead of banning, why not ask for the political beliefs to be toned down a bit? I agree, that many have crossed the line recently, and I think many people from the right would agree.
If our defence against hate is to ban people, it does not achieve much. If instead, we ask for them to talk less about politics, and more about their anger at low wheelbases, or their Carbonjack, things would be much better.
I hope some of you can see things the way I do, before it is too late, and Waki is banned.
#BringBackTheOldWaki!
I wish that were the case. Some basic questions have been asked of brands and they flat out ignore them or the answers are beyond useless. And that's on things like bike geometry.
People with anything from closed mindedness to outright racism and everything in-between can say what they like here. And if censorship and a time out we're to happen they'd log in under another name / ID.
The problem here, or at least one of them is that this is a forum with light to no moderation. One can't expect to find balance, reason or enlightenment here.
There are a few informed and educated people here with valid opinions and points of view and there are others who, and I'm being kind, have no clue on anything but like to present the matter doesn't exist or insist it's the wider audiences job to validate or provide evidence. If one can't do that it's responded to with insults.
And in the middle, people just want to ride bikes.
It should be open to everyone who wants to ride - it's not, it is unfair and won't change because its roots are hundreds of years deep and billions of people wide. And institutionally enforced.
I live in hope of change (have done for decades) but I don't expect to see it here.
@sarahmoore @brianpark : thank you for making this article. It has shown to me that Pinkbike has not given up on fighting racism, and hate.
We all deal with issues ( grief, tragedy, etc...) different, and to be "racist shamed" Because you are not joining a protest or posting a all Black picture on your social media, is by definition, bullying.
Deal with it how you want to deal with it and not on others terms.
Lastly - We all have a bias or are prejudiced in something. Don't let that define you. Understand it, come to grips with it and make changes if you feel its appropriate.
I think this situation is confusing for all of us, and I don’t want to come across as ignorant to other beliefs, and absorbed in personal biases. I should probably shut up now though, before I misinterpret someone else. On the other hand, I don’t want to come across as racist, or ignorant. I believe in the BLM movement, and I don’t think there should be tolerance for racism, and I want to make that clear.
I would like to end my comments on this article with one note: we are all mountain bikers. There is no need to fight endlessly about a topic that we for the most part agree on. Why don’t we embrace our differences, and appreciate the sport we take part in. I think PinkBikes address of this issue is overdue, however it is better than never. Racism is a very complicated issue, not just a simple word. Sometimes you must understand what the issue is before combatting it, so I encourage you all to do research. Find a way that you can help out to end the struggle of black Americans, and go and do it. Let us show unity, as together we are much stronger than apart. It seems like for the most part we can all agree that this has to end, so let’s take that, and use it to show that to show the world that we want change. Now. The marches that have occurred across the world have sparked action locally here, and in many other places. Sparks can die out, so it is our job as a community to keep this alive, until we get what we want. In general, I am a big supporter of listing to others opinions before challenging them, however there is no justification of actions that have been taken by certain police, and racist civilians who take their anger out at the innocent.
With that, I sign off for this comment section.
#Blacklivesmatter
My Physics 101 teacher at the Uni used to say the best way to unmask a scammer is putting him in the spotlight and writing down everything he says. I think this pretty much applies to those who make veiled references to racial or social differences.
Good way to cement an educated discussion there dude. Thanks for kick-starting me into thinking mode.
But I’m my book, three strikes and you’re out.
Personally I don’t let his comments bother me, but understand he only brings negativity to these forums.
I suppose children never learn and the only way to bring them back to reality is a stern consequence.
2¢
If you don't like it, go to another website. Then maybe PB will rethink it.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
But since you're so concerned about blue lives and the 1st amendment, maybe take your head out of your ass and realize that police officers are currently systematically violating 1st amendment rights of citizens throughout the US by assaulting protesters and members of the press.
First, the Bill of Rights applies to the USA government. Second, Pinkbike is neither the government nor american. Like all private enterprises, they define their user standards.
Ill say again, american education is failing. Maybe go back to your high school goverment text books before commenting. #blacklivesmatter
F***ing brilliant. How the hell are you supposed to EVER convince anyone of any other perspective of point of view if you first impulse is to extinguish them?
Seriously, is that all you SJW's can ever do?
Are your arguments and beliefs so weak that they cant stand up to ANY thought that isnt goose stepping to the outrage polices newest offense?
Honestly, Waki says some weird shit sometimes ,but You all know damn well that if you banned him, the collective IQ around here would drop in half.
I dont agreee withhom very much, but again, I dont ever demand that people i disagree with or offend me, disappear
“And Obama as a Token Ni**er as well. I bet he calls Pelosi “massah”. What a disgrace he is. I do hope that his two pack a day menthols creates a weakness to Corona and dispatches him, painfully.
The guy is clearly racist. To PB credit, and I don't think PB deserves too much credit to this point, the comment seemed to be pulled off the site shortly after posted. That said, PB didn't ban this guy. So what about it?
Also want to see the screen grab cuz you know, you can see it and then say something to the effect of that is kinda racist?
While I don't think Waki is as blatantly racist as some other posters here, I personally think the forum would be better off without him. My problem with him isn't that I disagree with his opinions (there are plenty of people here that I sometimes disagree with), it's that his only purpose seems to be to generate controversy and stir the pot. He (and you apparently) also greatly overestimates his own intelligence and riding abilities, and is generally just a douchebag.
It's not a directly racist attack but it's really an attack on anything socially progressive, which race relations are directly related to. Race relations, economic inequality, sexual equality, environmental issues. All the things Trump Republicans have declared war on.
Referring to SJWs, Allegra Ringo writes in Vice:
“The problem is, that’s not a real category of people. It’s simply a way to dismiss anyone who brings up social justice — and often those people are feminists. It’s awfully convenient to have a term at the ready to dismiss women who bring up sexism, as in, “You don’t really care. As an SJW, you’re just taking up this cause to make yourself look good!”
I was actually more bothered by Waki's comments against environmentalists than the racial stuff, constantly belittling and making fun of environmentalists like Greta Thunberg.
Within 10-20 years obvious impending environmental issues are going to make race relations seem much less significant as we will all realize we are on the same sinking and dying boat together.
I appreciate Pinkbike addressing this issue, even though we all have our differences we should try to act like a community.
The Cycling industry has nothing to do with this news topic, and yet people are using it as a pretext to ban someone like Waki.
Try and stay on topic
Honestly, Waki says some weird shit sometimes ,but You all know damn well that if you banned him, the collective IQ around here would drop in half."
There is a big difference between having dialogue and being a right wing agitator who personally insults and degrades people who doesn't agree with them.
I also disagree strongly about the collective IQ dropping now. As far as I'm concerned his opinions on mountain bikes are misleading because he simply doesn't ride enough. Always making fun of 50 tooth cassette's like he's some kind of strong man when the reality is he doesn't need it cause he never goes on long rides. He used to insist nobody needed more than a 125 mm dropper, only cause he didn't ride steep trails. Most of his opinions were cynical mish-mash garblings of little intellectual value from what I saw. I hope he is motivated to ride more now and enjoy the real side of the sport.
Ive gotten into more arguments about bikes that almost anyone. WHO CARES. i mean really WHO CARES
Do you have to add that to the list of things you gotta be pissed about or the world will stop?
Seriously
Let me start of with a simple little reminder that talking about racism should have a place -> everywhere. Not just in selected small sections on a webpage where everyone loves to talk about bikes, heck, I rather talk about bikes and line choices, body position and the requirements to go faster.
But there lies an issue in this sport that affects me in a way you might never understand, that's why you, and everyone else should hear and listen to what People of color have to say, to report. Let us talk about a topic we never felt comfortable to talk about in the sport.
Why?
Because it's not just when we go shopping and get targeted to have stolen something, it's not just when we are in a bus and get racially discriminated, it's all the time where we get to feel our skin not be the right color for others. Even In the sport.
And this is just scraping the surface.
By forcing an issue in to a room that is not as accessible as for example this article, creates an option for people to look away, and that is the issue.
Privileged people have always had the option to look away, and it has for a very very long time be the option to go for.
It's time to change that, make a "sensitive" topic less sensitive, simply by talking about it like asking how you slept.
The mentality to comfort everyone can't be a mentality to go for when its puting a price tag on a life, on equal rights, on my skin.
And the comfort that you're talking about, the "talking about a topic that doesn't deeply upset others?"
It's usually the racist people who get deeply upset, and talking about this issue openly is a way to educate.
And you're right, it is an upsetting topic, but it's a truth you're talking about that is upsetting, it's my truth and the one of thousand of other riders.
This situation we are in should not call out the question of comfort, but for help, support and education.
To break down the wall and push diversity in a gorgeous sport that has many mentally healthy atributes.
If you can’t figure out the difference between reasonable discourse/ presenting the other side of an argument/debate and being a d*ck, racist, *sswipe then you are beyond help. No one is saying you are racist because you present the other side, nor would anyone censor you for that, people call you racist and censor you because you’re racist and need censoring.
Or know any history,at all
All they know is they are right and pure and all others must be silenced, one way or another.
It is up to the community in PB and as a whole in the real world to say no to racism and hurtful comments. People should be banned and if they crop up again in another form banned again, they will soon get bored and then PB are not the only ones moderating.
The up/downvoting system has helped in taking the sharper edges off some of the more polarised views that appear, and hopefully this has kept the comments relatively friendly.
But arguments and differences of opinion do bring out tenacity in some commenters, winning the argument takes priority and their behaviour ultimately starts to become a bit dominating and sets the tone of the thread.
I think the overall effect of letting this behaviour proliferate is that people feel less like engaging with the conversation as there's a low-level threat of crossing paths with one of the 'opinionators' who will take the argument to an ugly level.
The quote from Waki that @DoubleCrownAddict posted above was directed at me and a couple of others over very little, it's incoherent, angry and abusive. The subsequent flood of posts from Waki sought to dominate the conversation and curry favour, in effect normalising and validating the offensive initial comments.
I'm not easily offended, my job means I do a lot of work on the internet so I'm not new to this sort of shitty attitude but the encounter definitely left me cautious of crossing paths with people who might flare up like this.
If it feels like it's not worth the bother to a middle aged white man like me, I expect it's a lot worse for someone from a minority.
I dunno what the right approach is though, I agree sanitising the site of people with pointy views would be wrong, people get angry, say things clumsily, often don't mean to offend as much as they do. But others insult, pursue and dominate and PB need to decide whether the voices of a few should set the tone of the comments.
Google his name.
Educate yourself, dont be a sheep.
Media push narrative, sheep follow.
I been called frog by non white, is that less racist that monkey?
I been called to go back where im from and im white and Canadian In Canada, is that same valuable racist than other live?
Rwanda genocide in 1995.
Millions of innocent victims. Both were same skin colour but hated the other race, is that racist or its different?
Floyd death is terrible and should never happen, he not dead because he black but because cop is a*shole and other cops (not white) did nothing for help. Tragic and very sad.
I been victim of racist constantly because my language by all kind of skin colours,
I had fight for be were I am now.
Does my life matter or only black live matter.
Before anybody (sjw) slam me,
I believe in a world were we should have same opportunity and we should share everything we have with other who cant achieve what we have done.
Educate yourself. Dont be a sheep.
Yes, there are people who will be glad to see him leave PB. That's their prerogative; I understand. I would too if I had been on the receiving end of some of the less than wisdom-inducing comments Waki is capable of.
However, I will be someone who will miss having him about.
That's because Waki and I have shared PMs over the past decade here where we have shared our frustrations with the state of the world (both physical and online), religion, politics, the PB comments section, family life, emigration and living in a country other than that of your birth and all that goes with it.
We have called each other out over what we saw as times when the other went too far, and jumped to the other's defence when we felt they were being unfairly treated.
And Waki is, in my experience, as is anyone and everyone, much, much more than the sum of the parts that are their comments on PB.
So, bye Waki. This below is the you I enjoyed irregular chats with and will miss
waki-leaks.blogspot.com/2014/12/may-e-bikes-heal-you.html
A few years before his death, Gregg Allman was asked what he thought about the Confederate flag and he said, “I was taught how to play music by these very, very kind older black men. My best friend in the world is a black man. If people are gonna look at that flag and think of it as representing slavery, then I say burn every one of them.” This statement is remarkable to me because he’s not responding to the question based on what the flag means to him and how he feels when he looks at it. Instead, he realized the flag caused pain to people he cared about. If it causes pain to someone else, then put it away, he said.
I'd suggest the latter as someone with experience in this area. The PB comments certainly aren't 4chan but a full time moderator role has the potential to be very hard on a single individual. The only company I'm aware of who has done this without massive psychological impact on the individual is HackerNews and they have 2 mods for a much more benign community.
This shows a misunderstanding of the constitution and its application. You don't get some blanket immunity to publish or reproduce whatever you want. Censorship or the lack of is actually a very delicate act for a social media platform.
You should review the Communications Decency Act, specifically Section 230 that details the obligations and exceptions with regards to editorial responsibilities of social media platforms.
They can do things like terminate service for violation of T&C but what do think happens if those terms contradict existing laws in one of their jurisdictions?
To grossly misrepresent the Communications Decency Act, PB has an obligation to monitor & police specifc types of content, but as long as they demonstrate an attempt they won't be held liable as the publisher of illegal content they miss.
That's not really the same thing as carte blanche powers to set your own T&C
m.pinkbike.com/photo/18817309
I recall reading an exchange between yourself and Waki recently where the [lowers voice] Daily Mail was invoked. Waki made some comments that I wholeheartedly disagreed with, and I thought you did an excellent job of rebutting his nonsense. I imagine that was quite an exhausting exchange for you, whereas Waki seems to be a very unusual person who is comfortable using pinkbike comments to explore all facets of his own personality and never gets tired... I'm still disappointed that he seems to have been banned, (but I suspect it may be of benefit for his metal health).
Participating honestly in an online forum is to put yourself in a vulnerable position - that's probably why I rarely do it. It's so hard to predict how your words will be interpreted. For example, if you and I had been talking in the pub and you'd said "[the Daily Mail is] only considered a newspaper by frothing racists..." I'd have pulled you up for over-stating your case (even though I agree with the sentiment), and we'd have moved on. On the forum your statement is there forever for anyone who stumbles on it to read and consider at their leisure.
If you look back at that comment thread you'll see that your comments received an overwhelmingly positive response and Waki's are all below the threshold. Now imagine that you're a 15 year old kid who's really into bikes and is just beginning to look up and consider the world and is testing out a few ideas and opinions. You might skim the headlines as you deliver the newspapers, but you aren't reading the editorials. Chances are you deliver a lot more Daily Mails than Guardians. A pinkbike article about trail sabotage experienced by someone similar to you might be interesting, maybe you read it. Maybe you read the comments under it. Maybe this is the first time you ever hear of Oswald Mosley...
I guess what I'm saying here is - well done, you put yourself out there and got some important thoughts written down. You came across as genuine and passionate, and you were supported by the community. But if Waki and others hadn't provoked you the conversation would never have happened.
I wonder what the poor sob is going to do with all his free time now
All
#1. Creating archetypes in your mind base on past experiences is human beings grow, learn and adapt. Your biases are, to some extent, what allow you to survive.
#2. Group behavior is predictable. We can estimate remarkably accurately how many Canadians will have a heart attack in 2020. Or how many will steal a bicycle.
#3. Making individual assumptions based on #1 and #2 can be incredibly hurtful to the individual. And will be dead wrong so frequently that we should teach ourselves to avoid doing it. It will take practice. No human is immune to this. Not one.
We cannot make #1 and #2 go away no matter how much utopian wishful thinking we employ. Conscious awareness of #3 should help make us better people, citizens and neighbors.
Finally, with the entry price for a durable mountain bike now at $4,000+, it appears the ship has sailed on it ever being an inclusive sport. It's a WAG on my part, but I suspect it's only the top 15% who can afford that kind of money for a hobby. And a much smaller percentage globally.
How do we get people like him to think differently? How do we have less people like him?
Luckily the conditions aren't right for the government to achieve public acceptance of complete oppression of dissent, but what they've been doing recently is in violation of the first amendment and if they were to continue to get away with it you'd be crazy to think they won't take things even farther.
Waki was just reverse mirroring what people were saying. The deeper you went in the position you were defending, the deeper he went in the opposite position, just to show you how absurd it was to have clear-cut and definitive opinions on something (except on tire choice and bmx race crosstraining benefit), moreover considering we’re just a bunch of bipeds trying to make something of our time on a rock endlessly falling into the infinite space. It was not a problem that some people did not get it and it was even a good thing as it put some salt on some article comment sections (come on, don’t tell me you’ve never been excited -for the best or for the worst- when the time to click on « show comment » on Waki’s posts was coming), so this misunderstanding was not an issue until it led to the online death of one of the last wisemen on here. I am sure he will be deeply missed in the post-pandemic learning time to come, and we’ll be the only responsible.
Love you Waki, feel so sad today, it escalated way quicker than you’ve ever been able to do.
Stereotyping and discrimination is bad no matter what. Even when you are stereotyping and discriminating against those who disagree with you. Most of you screaming for bans are hypocrites. You spew hate as you preach love. I am a POC and this is what alienates me, not from MTB, but from you commenters. Thanks PB for the well written piece, but please shut down hate from all sides. Give the people who have made mistakes in the past to stop. Stop conflating different politics with being racist.
Absolutely Sir. I could not agree more.
Brian Park and the team have one hell of a job trying to moderate the community here simply because there is a large amount of conflation of different politics and opinion as discriminatory per se.
As you say, yes, there is discrimination and stereotyping here that it would be nice to be free from, I just hope that there is room for opinion from all sides, just as there is no room for hate from all sides.
Thanks for adding your voice to the mix here; I for one am glad to have had the opportunity to hear it.
His pathetic outgoing cheap shot against Levy is classic Waki and is all you need to analyze. Instead of seeing what is happening in the world and using the opportunity to be apologetic he stubbornly became more combative. I wish the guy the best and hopefully he rides more and maybe does a little reflecting.
You cannot educate those who turn away from the facts.
Its frustrating and debilitating.
Thanks PB for your thoughtful comments and approach. This problem is 100s of years old; a day or 2 or week or 2 to consider the entirety of the future is time we’ll spent.
clearly no one should ever be excluded from participation in a sport because of any factor that is irrelevant. We have a few women who are part of the group ride community here in Fargo who join in on some of the more aggressive rides. Everyone is happy to have them, or anyone else along.
One of the local rides was started by an absolutely delightful guy who is of afro-Caribbean ancestry. He started it because he is moderately sabbath observant Seventh Day Adventist so he doesn't ride on the Saturday rides. Made it convenient for me, too.
But maybe some people are down voting you because they know that the "Black Lives Matter" organization is based on pure BULLSHIT.
Before you down vote me too much please read:
scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/publications/empirical-analysis-racial-differences-police-use-force
Have you ever heard of Warren S. Lindvold? Of course you haven't. He was a 72 year old white guy who died from a cervical spine fracture caused by rough handling by law enforcement officers which did not take into account a preexisting medical condition. He was arrested for DUI, so I am glad to have him off the road and in jail. He did not resist arrest, but his medical condition made him fragile.
George Floyd was being arrested for using counterfeit currency. That is a Federal Felony in the US which makes him eligible for up to 20 years in prison.
I spent a number of years in a volunteer fire department. I was aware of one incident involving an officer striking a handcuffed seated person who was pointing out that the officer was accompanied by his mistress. The officer was out of that department pretty quick.
I have also used force to restrain combative people under the influence of meth-amphetamine and Opioids , which the preliminary autopsy indicate Mr. Floyd was. We used a restraint which tied ankles to wrists, and sometimes the weight of a fire fighter to the body of a combative person.
So what will Brian Park say if the final autopsy indicated that Mr. Floyd died of coronary failure due to amphetamine intoxication? "Sorry"? The last time I was in Canada I told my wife I thought that word now was Canadian speak for "get the f*ck out of my way!"
Let me also point out that there is another factor in my distaste for the BLM crowd. They are part of the openly anti-Semitic wing of black american political thought. Think there is no such thing? Sharpton ("diamond merchants"), Jessie Jackson (Hyme town), etc.
We were in Memphis Tennessee not long ago and went to visit the "National Museum of Civil Rights" at the Loraine motel. I wonder where they found the pictures of the Selma march without Abraham Joshua Heschel in the front row? Photo shop maybe. Heschel and King were close confidants. There was no mention of the Jewish presence in the front lines of the civil rights movement in the US.
So, Brian... if you didn't read the study I linked BEFORE you wrote your bit of "noatalgia de la boue", maybe you should do so now. And in the future you should investigate before you open your mouth. "Everybody knows" is short for "it is the trendy thing to believe and I am too stupid and lazy to see if there is any research on the subject to back up my position."
Here is a great recent example. There is nothing in my life experience that I could relate as being even remotely similar to these stories.
youtu.be/8o6OEyfuJU8
most of the comments that I see here on PB that I believe are expressing prejudice against people due to their ethnic heritage are anti-Chinese. I have worked with many Chinese engineers. Most were good people, just like every one else.
I worked for a guy from China for several years and he had a hard time with Jewish culture, but two of his top performing engineers were Jews. He once told me that he didn't understand us. His exact words were "you and xxx! You are so suborn!" But we worked together for years.
Please note that he despised the rulers of the mainland ("CommieBastards") and was very conflicted about buying stuff from the mainland. He and I and a colleague from Hong Cong had many discussions about the difficulty of determining if something was made with slave labor or not, and if trade with China was a net benefit to the Chinese people or if it just put money in the pockets of the Commie Bastards.
provost.uchicago.edu/sites/default/files/documents/reports/FOECommitteeReport.pdf
There is no race and accessibility problem in high end sports. You either have/make/save the money or you don't. Just because i'm "rich" does not mean i have to pay a "poor" guy to slay whistler. This is a communist philosphy that ignores karma, reincarnation and personal responibility in general.
i think all lives matter dont get me wrong but lets not use this incident to violate basic free speech or limit a few raunchy waki jokes. lets keep it real, we can police ourselves as well, if there is a commenter who is getting out of line, let the other commenters have at it. Makes it more fun anyway. dont forget this is MTBing not Badmitton.
what you have posted is ANECDOTE. The plural of anecdote is NOT data.
Fryer provided data. His conclusions were that police are more likely to use physical restraint on black people being arrested than white, but that white people are slightly more likely to have deadly force used against them. Let me post a bit of the summary:
"On the most extreme use of force –officer-involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings."
-End quote-
I have had cops point their service weapon at me on two occasions. I have had a toe to toe with a cop at the scene of a car wreck because he was asking for protected medical information and "get a warrant" didn't seem to be the answer he wanted. I had friends beaten by cops who entered their house while they were sleeping on a pretext that was thrown out in court. So I know that cops do step over the line.
But that doesn't mean that is the reality. I am visibly Jewish. Hat, beard, attitude. I am also large, muscular, and can come off as being the guy in charge who doesn't take shit from anyone. I was all of these at the at the time of the three incidents I spoke of. Cops really don't like "contempt of cop." Not even from a firefighter medical crew chief in uniform.
Unless you can give me good peer reviewed research like the study I posted, all the anecdote in the world will not change my mind.
By the way, there is a terminal in the MSP airport named for the openly jew hating bigot Charles Lindberg. St. Barry O. had Al Sharpton as a private guest at the White House at least seven times. Do you want to argue that Rev. Al is not an antisemitic bigot? Really? The group with the highest per capita hate crime attack rate is Jews. That is an aggregate statistic that has been true for a long time.
Thanks for the link. I read the paper by Fryer, and let me too post a few bits of the report that fits an alternative narrative:
"In the raw data, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force."
"Interestingly, as the intensity of force increases (e.g. handcuffing civilians without arrest, drawing or pointing a weapon, or using pepper spray or a baton), the probability that any civilian is subjected to such treatment is small, but the racial difference remains surprisingly constant. For instance, 0.26 percent of interactions between police and civilians involve an officer drawing a weapon; 0.02 percent involve using a baton. These are rare events. Yet, the results indicate that they are significantly more rare for whites than blacks. With all controls, blacks are 21 percent more likely than whites to be involved in an interaction with police in which at least a weapon is drawn and the difference is statistically significant"
Quote ends:
Additionally, the author themselves adds that there are a number of caveats that raise questions about the integrity of the data, not least of which is that, and I quote
"Accounting for contextual variables recorded by police officers who may have an incentive to distort the truth is problematic".
I should say so. If you really want to remove any inherent potential biases contained within data sets, at the very least, the sources of any data should not come from any organization that stands to incur either benefit or detriment from any conclusions generated.
I humbly suggest it is not possible to use the Fryer paper to dismiss out of hand the combined weight of the experiences (anecdotal or not) of generations of POC.
I am sure we can agree that blanket acceptance is no better not worse than blanket dismissal, especially where data sets are known to be potentially problematic.
End of the day, there is a real issue that needs to be addressed, but overstatements and dramatic, one-sided interpretations of current events don’t help move anything forward.
@DRomy: you really make this too easy. That took about two seconds and I know I've seen many other in the news in the last week.
www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/nyregion/police-kettling-protests-nyc.html
www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/us/police-violence-george-floyd.html
Of course I didn't bother to include a link to the president pepper spraying protesters for a photo op. And it really isn't about Democrat or Republican, either party can be at fault. Look at how quickly you turn this into an us Vs you. It's not a phantom force and mandatory curfews is actually a great example of one of the many tools a government can use to silence its people. You enjoy keeping your head in the sand though. I don't care if I change your mind, just letting you know that the majority of everyone else thinks there's some really screwed up things happening right now.
c'mon bro. read some american history. read some sociological nonfiction on why we are the way we are. the nonexistent problem you speak of exists because of centuries of one group of people having an advantageous position in american society. generational money, jobs, not being pulled over, and in general our "leg up" comes with that. mountain bikes come with all that. the only reason people don't see it that way is because we have blind spots that come with being born white. no problem with that. the problem is with not listening and changing. it is the time to listen. learn. change.
If you follow this link, there's a compilation of videos that illustrate that the police brutality has become far too commonplace:
www.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/gu1mrc/mega_thread_compilation_of_police_brutality
I'm not really sure how to explain to you that when a majority of the negative things law enforcement does disproportionately affects one segment of the population, that all the good work in the world doesn't change the need to address that problem.
And I didn't in any way dismiss your data. I am sure it is 100% accurate within the context of the study with which it was gathered. I merely pointed out how incorrect it is to dismiss the large amount of corroborated testimony that exists outside of that study as being invalid.
You clearly have a side in this and are unwilling to consider that there might be a real problem out there that needs addressing. How about this, imagine living in some far off distant place where on your drive to work every day you were genuinely concerned about being targeted by law enforcement. That in being targeted you felt there was a high likelihood of being treated as uncooperative no matter what you tried to do, resulting in a lethal weapon being drawn on you. In this situation you're not some big tough guy as you claim to be (dont care, I'm sure you are), but you're a 17 year old girl, or a 50 year old science professor, or etc. That's what people of color all over the US are saying their experience with law enforcement is. So maybe try to have just a hint of empathy for those people and whatever the cause of that problem is.
Maybe less violent, but the bias and discrimination is equally present here. In some cases it’s worse because oodles of people think they don’t discriminate but are actually quite racist in quiet ways. And then there’s our track record on indigenous rights... you, know glass houses and stones.
Doesn’t mean we shut up, but maybe a less holier than thou tone and stop painting “Americans” or “the USA” with such broad strokes and stereotyping an entire population in the process.
The new 'on-line' political commissars are referring to Vice and The New York Times like it's the gospel truth. I'm not accusing those two of being apologetic. But before referring to the NYT, they should know that someone as disgusting as Walter Duranty wrote for them for years. He even received the Pulitzer prize for his lies.
“I said ‘The plural of anecdote is data’ some time in the 1969-70 academic year while teaching a graduate seminar at Stanford. The occasion was a student’s dismissal of a simple factual statement–by another student or me–as a mere anecdote. The quotation was my rejoinder. Since then I have missed few opportunities to quote myself. The only appearance in print that I can remember is Nelson Polsby’s accurate quotation and attribution in an article in PS: Political Science and Politics in 1993; I believe it was in the first issue of the year.”
I also e-mailed Polsby, who didn’t know of any early printed occurrences.
What is interesting about this saying is that it seems to have morphed into its opposite – “Data is not the plural of anecdote” – in some people’s minds. Mark Mandel used it in this opposite sense in a private e-mail to me, for example.
Fred Shapiro
It's irony in the extreme, but mostly funny, sometimes to close to the bone, but hell, you can tell him!
Engagement is key, wether that be with wiity people, monsters, or MTB riders
Nothing here is simple and for so many people to think they've unpacked all the details and distilled an answer so easily is sabotaging an otherwise good and necessary message and the productivity about finding the right way forward.
Regardless of what Floyd was accused of doing, the trial was never meant to be held by the police. Do you check every bill you get ahold of? Do you think someone should be dispatched to solve that problem with deadly force? Do you think police dpts should be spending our state/local tax dollars buying secondhand military equipment that we have already paid for with federal tax? Do you think that the profitable private prison system should be pumped up with our tax money?
Its all a massive industry that is geared toward making a select few extremely rich. Black people are easy prey, they dont have generations of wealth to back them up. Poor people of every background are targeted, but there is just more poverty in black families/communities bc of how terrible slavery and segreation is. The lack of $$ leads to their problems being ignored, on every level, which only continues the cycle.
The comments of Sharpton and Jackson do not represent the views of all black people. They shouldnt be used to discredit a movement geared towards dismantling a extremely corrupt and ineffective system that is destroying families and communities everywhere.
jech.bmj.com/content/72/8/715.abstract
www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-psychiatric-sciences/article/prevalence-demographic-variation-and-psychological-correlates-of-exposure-to-police-victimisation-in-four-us-cities/603E7A3CBA8F3A44AABB5A561A667D0B
dl.uswr.ac.ir/bitstream/Hannan/80296/1/2018%20Lancet%20Volume%20392%20Issue%2010144%20August%20%2820%29.pdf
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-016-0040-2
jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/article-abstract/2715611
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10911359.2015.1129252
www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10911359.2015.1083506
Thats just a quick search on google scholar of papers published since 2016.
Only if you are ignorant of how peer reviewed research works.-someone who worked in the research field.
What you call trivializing, I call an attempt to provide context and perspective in the hope of fuller understanding so we can make real progress. The rising tide of viewing “the police” as a villain will not produce the change needed or help society at large. That’s why I pushing back against some of the more un-nuanced, blanket comments being made.
I have two bachelors in science, one in Bio/Ecology, and one Nursing. I worked in federal research, so I'm not one to be impressed with your pseudoscience nonsense. Structural racism and police violence is a fact in the United States.
Since you seem to want to look at numbers, let's do that with rather simple point I brought up. Let's say for the sake of estimation somewhere around half of our sworn LE community individually attend to 2000 calls per year, a realistic number (~7 calls a day, less than 300 working days). That estimation totals around 800,000,000 calls nationwide, yearly. If we're saying that nearly 300 (black) lives are tragically lost at the hands of LE each year, regardless of whether justifiable, that's 0.0000375% of calls resulting in tragedy. This obviously isn't scientific, but its an approximation of what's actually happening in the less convenient real world.
I get that you support fixing these 300 issues and then some. I am also behind that, more than you are, but don't be fooled about how the same forces that make people averse to flying after an aviation disaster also compound the perceptions around police activity in America following events like Floyd.
scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C13&q=police+violence+usa&btnG=&oq=police+v
The amount of peer reviewed science on the subject is overwhelming.
www.ama-assn.org/about/leadership/police-brutality-must-stop
www.nursingworld.org/news/news-releases/2020/ana-president-condemns-racism-brutality-and-senseless-violence-against-black-communities
www.apha.org/policies-and-advocacy/public-health-policy-statements/policy-database/2019/01/29/law-enforcement-violence
ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2020.305585
www.emergencyphysicians.org/press-releases/2020/5-30-20-acep-statement-on-structural-racism-and-public-health
Yall can just f*ck off with your "baised statistics" and "both sides of the argument" whataboutism. This isnt an issue with both sides of an argument. The fact that bad science gets retracted by journals is proof that peer reviewed science is credible, fyi.
The irony of this is that we both believe there is a problem. Literally no one you're arguing with is claiming there isn't an exigent, serious issue at hand. Go back and read above. There are a number of us who very simply recognize this isn't a trivial discussion, which we haven't as a unified voice unpacked and figured out in its entirety. Some of us too feel there's a need to challenge sensationalism about the subject on tap.
Again, I posed a very basic argument. All you gave me is a slew of hyperlinks that I'm supposed to follow, parse through and then glean some tangentially relevant information from? So in your illustrious academic career did you hand in work products filled with references, devoid of your own thoughts?
The fact that you feel the need to persistently hide behind your degrees and alleged experience to then look down from some fantasy pedestal of moral and academic superiority tells me you're a bullshitter. Do you seriously believe no one else here has more impressive accolades than you? People with an attitude like yours are always going to unwittingly represent the step backwards for every two steps forward in the fight for socioeconomic equality.
I have had cops point their service weapon at me on two occasions. I have had a toe to toe with a cop at the scene of a car wreck because he was asking for protected medical information and "get a warrant" didn't seem to be the answer he wanted. I had friends beaten by cops who entered their house while they were sleeping on a pretext that was thrown out in court. So I know that cops do step over the line.
But that doesn't mean that is the reality. I am visibly Jewish. Hat, beard, attitude. I am also large, muscular, and can come off as being the guy in charge who doesn't take shit from anyone. I was all of these at the at the time of the three incidents I spoke of. Cops really don't like "contempt of cop." Not even from a firefighter medical crew chief in uniform.
Unless you can give me good peer reviewed research like the study I posted, all the anecdote in the world will not change my mind.
"He has been correctly pointing out that there is an availability bias propping up a perception that police sit around eating donuts waiting to beat up black kids, when the reality is officers and deputies individually go on thousands of calls every year and in a profession with close to a million sworn agents, an infinitesimal few result in tragedy, yet most of which hit the media in a big way. This is not at all a proxy excuse for those tragedies or lesser lawful but awful events, but rather to point out there is a less convenient reality than many want to lean on who are calling systemic racism, which is a horrifying, polarizing trivialization of a real problem."
Forgive me for having little patience for people who like to claim that things that have been consistently found to be a problem are not a problem. Yall sound like the people trying to argue that scientists are wrong about global warming. Police brutality and systemic racism is a problem that everyone who has any skin in the game has come out and says is a real problem. I've given you ample "proof" of that. Just like climate change, its a fact, not an opinion.
Good morning.
Thanks for your opinions on Waki,
People's experiences of him (including ours) over the past 10 years here are different, which is a point I addressed in my post (and I quote).... " there are people who will be glad to see him leave PB. That's their prerogative; I understand. I would too if I had been on the receiving end of some of the less than wisdom-inducing comments Waki is capable of."
I agree that it may look to people that he argued with people for no reason, however, my considered opinion given all the interactions I ever had with Waki are different.I politely suggest that if you were in my position, having had the interactions I have had with Waki, that you would be less dismissive.
It is my considered opinion that comments such as yours on social media which deal in absolutes..... for example, "There was nothing good about anything he did." .....are symptomatic of the reason why Brian Park and the team have to exercise increasing levels of control over the community here.
I thought he had asked to leave...(see his post in this thread).
If you have information we are not privy to that he was forced to leave, so be it.
Do you have access to such information?
Have a good day Sir.
CM!
CM!
To quote Feynman
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
I’m not usually in favour of censoring but when you read some comments and think kids will be reading this , it aint good ! I think a warning could be giving before a ban if you don’t comply with the already set forum rules !
But banning Waki...it's just a bit wierd. The guy is clearly doing al this trolling for a laught.
99.9% of the people here don't even know him and yet talk about him and stik al this labels of racism.and what not on him.
Sorry Brian...but I'm desapointed.
This is like Jordan Peterson always says, some people are blinded by their own ideals and begin to ask for censureship just like facists do. And waki doesn't even have ideals, he's just having a laught...
As for other downright racists on thos site, I agree you ban them...but waki ain't one of them.
I hope he's able to get back.
It might make you feel better, and it might be easier, but it does not make it right. We're going for right.
The majority of his posts are heavily downvoted. He taunted you guys, probably thinking that you'd never actually delete him, which I thought was the case as well. My opinion has long been that you tolerate his bullshit because he's good at trolling people, engages people in pointless arguments, and generates clicks which is profitable for you. One of your mods finally deleted him, and now you're setting the stage to invite him back based on the premise of inclusiveness and doing the right thing. My guess is that the mod that deleted him is paid a salary, while you, being the founder of pinkbike stand to lose profit from your advertisers if waki's not around to stir the pot and generate extra clicks for every article. I may be off base with that, and I'm open to being corrected.
Waki is a genious at trolling, hands down the best in this website, matbe the best in the whole universe. If you never take him seriously, like me, you'll see that in fact he's stuff is just hilarious. You can see that even waki isn't serious about himself, he just says stuff to promp a reaction.
I bet he is reading al this shit show while rolling on the floor laughing.
Some people here, inclusing you, are just so focused on shuting people down that it kinda sounds facist, sorry about that...it's how I see it.
The thing is, nowadays, everybody gets offended by something...while I really thing Waki doesn't get offended by anything.
Some people here are like those kids that get bullied and think the solution is to go buy an automatic weapon and shoot at everybody at school...this might be a really silly comparition, sorry about that, it's the best I could come up with...but then again, I ain't no Waki.
Hope he comes back, really do, he's funny as hell.
You sound like a guy who finnaly took he's revenge...lol seriously, read your own stuff. It's like: he offended meeee! Please pinkbike kick him out!
I bet, If Brian Park never whrote that article and just banned all people that are racist in this website, than waki would still be around.
"He offended meeee! Please pinkbike kick him out!" I didn't ask anybody to kick him out. Pinkbike didn't kick him out because i went crying to them. He's ridden the line for a long time. He taunted them to kick him out and they finally did.
If you think that I'm thin skinned and childish because I've been offended, I can live with that. If they kiss his ass and invite him back, I can live with that too. But I'm not alone in saying good riddance to that dweeb and I hope he's gone for good.
I consider Waki to be someone I could talk to on this website and have a full, frank, honest and open discussion with without it descending into name calling nor echo-chambered entrenched positions more than nearly anyone else here.
Just because some people / you couldn't, or didn't appreciate his way of dealing with the polemic and dogma that all too often inhabits the comments section doesn't mean a) that Waki was incapable of having a positive contribution nor b) make your view of the world universally correct.
It was boring 'to you', sure.
Learn to change channels.
If things annoy you, try M.Scott Peck's book "The road less travelled" and his section on how to deal with perceived limits on personal freedoms.... it's useful in such time in my experience.
@radek has tried to give you that message here numerous times
The man is highly unlikely to need consoling Sir; you don't know him as well as you think.
I'm not naming names but I'm astounded you are defending everything we are trying to get away from. Certain individuals were deliberately controversial, argumentative, dismissive of others opinions, reactive and when someone replied with calmness and reason it often got personal. Calling someone a R.E.T.A.R.D is never acceptable.
Perhaps at times we should all consider:
www.verywellmind.com/an-overview-of-the-dunning-kruger-effect-4160740
None of us have all the answers to this massively complex problem the world has at the moment, but perhaps we could all start with some tolerance, kindness, reflection, introspection, humility, respect for others and good humour.
The whole premise of this conversation was that the comments here can be hostile and may alienate minority groups from mountain biking. You really think that someone using the term "our community" while arguing against blatant racists being given a free pass to say what they want in the name of free speech, is going to turn away a person of color more than when they come here and read those racist comments? Seems like a bit of a stretch, but I couldn't really say because i'm not in that position.
You're essentially suggesting that we should condone racism in this comments section because maybe the racist will make friends with a POC and have their icy heart melted? In theory, I get where you're coming from, but in practice I just don't think that's very likely. I also don't think that any of us, and particularly any minorities, should have to turn the other cheek, just look away, just ignore it, etc., because some white dude from Florida wants to exercise his God given right to speak his mind and just might come around one day, just maybe.
Its a bit challenged to call this "our community" with the subtext that in order to achieve the core suggestion of this article we should clean that very community of any viewpoint that might offend. My question would be offend who? You? Why are your perceptions superior, more moral? Assuming we're not talking outright hate, its healthy to be exposed to opinions and views that are not ours and that we may not agree with. I've said it in other threads here, we need to individually be better filters, individually be less knee-jerk about opinions we're unfamiliar with, and be compelled to engage people whom with we disagree and not bar them from the conversation.
Being international and drawing from so many different walks of life, PB is one of the best examples of discourse I've ever run across (and at times the worst) since it isn't merely an over moderated echo chamber. Hopefully it will stay that way. Radek's take and approach to this is inspiring and very appreciated.
I'm genuinely trying to engage in dialogue with an open mind. I feel like I'm being painted with this broad stroke like I'm trying to suppress any dissenting opinion that doesn't fit my narrow worldview. I don't know what the answers are. Obviously it isn't to squash any dissenting opinions and I haven't suggested anything close to that.
I'm not trying to defend the guy, I think he conducted himself like a fool and posted nuisance text walls that are now one less thing to scroll through, but I don't believe he's this monster we should all be thankful is gone.
Let's not dress this up, if this was about a balanced exchange of opposing views, even charged with slightly emotive language, we would all be defending the right of both sides to continue the discussion.
But this is about a few people establishing a dominant voice through sheer volume and tenacity, one that predominantly opposes and ridicules their target rather than presenting a coherent opinion. The very point of this behaviour, to troll, is something we all do in the contexts of good friendships, relationships with our loved ones, it's very human.
In the context of total strangers though it's a total dick move, one which may well appeal to those voyeurs eager to see some friction, a behaviour that is meant to offend, to belittle and to dominate, propped up by people who are in no danger of being offended themselves.
I believe the knock on effect is that less people wish to engage when this kind of commentary becomes the norm.
The method wasn't the same but the sentiment was.
Getting off on tangents I ended up finding this from @radek (re Waki being "gone"): "That's a bunch of bullshit. I get back from the weekend and everyone has gone ban crazy. " (reference: www.pinkbike.com/photo/18817309)
I assume Waki left of his own accord, or I don't understand what mechanism deletes an entire user. But after 3 days of scrolling all I want to do is be a fly on the wall at the next PB staff meeting....they might be in the same library but I'm not sure they're in the same book, let alone same page.
And I agree - I think Waki left, as it gives a different error message than for roadstain.
Some of you guys really need a f*cking mirror.
Radek, and all the other mods are basically the owners of PB, and being a private organization, they can do whatever they want. Heck, they can even kick everyone who disagrees with them off the site, and have no problems.
I agree with you @radek, I think open comment sections are important. That being said, when the goal is to invite POC to the sport, I would imagine websites that are platforms for hateful speech would only do the opposite. Instead of allowing a new way of thinking, you’re allowing hatred to be tolerated, and displayed throughout the site. I think that your intentions of allowing more opinions is amazing, and we should see it on more sites though.
I would also like to address @pintoproof reply comment. (For anyone reading this, you probably have to scroll up about 200 comments to see it). You stated that “It's usually the racist people who get deeply upset...”. I just wanted to put it out there that it might be mostly racists who get deeply upset, however I can only speak for myself when I say that I, too get deeply upset that someone can have such hatred for someone that they don’t even know. I agree with you, racism should be talked about more, however when you’re trying to address an issue that is extremely important, people making racist comments never helps. I will possibly never understand how much is said towards people of color here in the U.S., however I do have a cousin who is 7 years old, and lives in New York City. She was adopted from Sierra Leone into my family, and she has been here in the U.S. for about a year now. The amount of daily racist comments, and gestures that I’ve heard about from her, and my aunt and uncle are horrible. I cannot begin to imagine how horrible it would be in other places where this is more common, let alone for her when she’s older. Something that many don’t understand is that the BLM movement does not say that white lives aren’t hard, but it is about the unfair struggles of POC. Your opinions are very interesting, and if you wouldn’t mind sharing more of them, please PM me. Everyone has a different story, and if you’re open about it, I would love to hear yours. In addition, it seems like you believe that the way that I’m approaching the issue is wrong, and I’m open to change.
Anyways, for the Waki thing... it seems as though he removed himself intentionally. Waki’s sense of humor was something that would be really good in these comment sections, so I’m sad to see him leave. I understand why he left, and if he hadn’t, he probably would’ve been banned. His comments crossed the line in many instances, and so I think that he took the appropriate move if he didn’t want to change.
Just my opinion.
You don’t have to have experienced The exact thing to either be for our against it. That is to relegate truth to experiential only and not absolute
Anyone defending Waki
Is basically saying “hey listen.... I know he’s crazy... but he’s the kind of crazy that....”
This, from Cranked magazine back a few years ago, is a good read about online communities and trolls in general, and just happens to include an interview that throws light on people's motivations, including one man in particular....
2flat.net/2017/01/07/meet-the-trolls-a-partially-enthographic-and-wholly-conjectural-investigation-into-a-mountain-bikings-newest-terrain-and-the-real-riders-that-virtually-ride-there
Surprised to see the top thread under this article lean so heavily on one single individual whereas I'd say it is not about the individual, it is about what is being said and done. As for his comments, there were times I agreed, there were times I disagreed, there were times I could see head nor toe and just left the discussion alone. WAKI and I are both members of the so called Ryan Leech Collective (RLC). It is an online mountainbike course led/created by Ryan Leech. I stick with the main website which has room for questions and, aside from Ryan himself, has enough "ambassadors" on board to provide near instant feedback. I think WAKI provides support on the Facebook channel and obviously provides some artwork to his courses, which you may have seen. Even though I haven't had interactions with WAKI over there, I can't imagine him being rude or disrespectful over there. The vibe isn't like that and I can't imagine it being tolerated. After all in a learning community people need to feel safe, to be willing to expose their weaknesses (physically and mentally). No doubt his (and many of ours) tone here isn't like what it is over there (at the RLC) so the question should not necessarily be "who should be banned" or "what should be reprimanded" (which are both on the consequence end). Instead, we could try to figure out "how to inspire people to behave as kind on PB as we know they can elsewhere" (which is more on the cause end). If the very same person is misbehaving here (on occasion) yet is friendly, constructive and respectful elsewhere, then we should look into the situational factors. Sure the big deal is of course, RLC is a learning community so it needs to be safe for it to function. And I feel it is also cool that it is heavily under development. Everything you do there, say there is actively being used to make the courses better. So even as a student, you feel like you're helping with the construction of the courses too. And maybe because PB is quite mature at this stage, a comment over here just simply is as relevant as it is on RLC. Or well, it sure is relevant (as every comment could trigger, inspire or hurt others) but it may just not feel like that.
Now this is merely analysis, I honestly don't know how to reach this goal. Maybe we can have a brainstorm and work this out. But I do feel the issue isn't only in the people. If the same people can behave well elsewhere and can be rude over here, then these people CAN behalve well full stop. We need to figure out how to make PB a safe place for people to be respectful and feel respected. I know there are a million reasons to point out why it isn't but if we want it to become more respectful, we need to figure out how to make it such.
The basic question might be: is PB a website that provides "lessons" on how-to behave in a polite way? I don't think so. People should come here and already know how to behave politely and then do so.
Because this community is so big, banning users is the easiest and most secure way to get rid of the trouble-makers. I'm not saying PB is making it easy for themselves - not at all. But I think there's no other efficient way.
There is a huge body of work arising from the initial Stanford Prisoner Experiment, through the Abu Ghraib prison abuse case research related to the issue of not whether, but exactly how environments can lead to changes in the behaviour of individuals.
Here at PB, and of course only speaking personally, I feel that it has been largely, not exclusively, but largely left up to the individual users themselves to police their own behaviour thus far.
On the plus side, PB is to be applauded therefore for the freedom of expression that they have allowed over the past decade as a result.
However, on the other hand, it means that there are a large number of users on all sides of most of the debates that take place here who either
a) are incapable of,
b) ignorant of the need to, or
c) wilfully ignore
.... the need to police their own behaviour whilst here.
And I would not be surprised if we found that research in the social sciences had already understood that we all have the potential to move in both directions along the continuum between "respectful, open, collaborative communication" on the one side and "vicious polemic laced dogmatism" on the other.
As an aside, I can fully understand why some people (and I have done so myself on a number of occasions) will get so 'pissed' with the vitriol spouted by some here who do not police their own behaviour that they take people to task. Waki was one of those, even though many think he was just an annoying troll. I act in the same way too on occasion, and have ended up apologising to people for going too far as a result sometimes.
That though is a corollary of the freedom given to the users here on PB thus far; with little overt moderation, vigilante users will appear and try to purge the place of those at the extremities with differing levels of success.
So, back on point, as you say, how does one create the environment, in PB's case, an online environment where everyone far more often sits on the respectful side of the continuum?
All I can offer as a suggestion, other than the Chicago Statement (referred to previously in this thread), is my experience of a facebook group that pretty universally maintains a respectful environment.
The group essentially operates by making sure in no uncertain terms what is and is not expected of users in the group upon registration (your registration is moderated for a start!!) and is very similar to the idea of a corporate vision as set out by @friendlyfoe in a post in another part of this page's threads.
The mods are clear about what is and is not acceptable, and they themselves both follow the rules and ensure they are followed.
People who are prepared to read the rules and take them on board then help the entire community to self-police themselves. Those people who are vocal in their opposition to having their perceived inalienable right to say what they want how and when they want, are rarely long-term members and either leave voluntarily or are summarily banned.
As a result, the group keeps growing in a positive direction.
Would such a model work for PB? Mmmm, it is less than a 20th of the size of the PB crowd. Apples and Oranges perhaps.Still, that is not my nor any of our place to determine.
Good luck Brian, Karl and the team on whatever you end up trying out. I for one will support anything that increases the overall level of mutual respect here on PB.
I mean honestly, if you don't write for a living, you should. You know what they say, if you're good at something don't do it for free right my man?
they pretend that they think "black lives matter" means "only black lives matter", when of course it means "black lives matter, too"
it's a disingenuous attempt to change the subject. those people don't argue in good faith.
I care a lot about black lives, but I think the reason BLM is pushed very hard through the media, is not as good as it seems to be at first sight.
This video can maybe explain it to someone who is open minded:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1xwdax2PyU&t=262s
It was made by a black man, so maybe that can take away some suspicions about his motives.
MLK-
I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”
This is obviously great news, and I would assume that we can call off the protests now. "It's ok guys, you've been persecuted, mired in systemic inequality, and murdered for centuries now, but it's just because God wants it to happen that way, so just relax!"
"make the downvotes public"
Good idea. Accountability reduces the urge to do anonymous drive-by racist DVs
It's a hard problem to solve.
Your utopia was called Soviet Union not long ago. A time and place where racism and freedom did not exist. You can't have anti-racism and freedom, it is sad but that's how it is : Anti-racism or freedom, pick one. Living under the iron curtain is something I'll never forget, ever.
And no matter how little you watched, that could never have been gathered from that video.
The video is about manipulation by the media and how different groups are being oppressed and put against each other.
By the way, you might want to read a bible some day, because your notion of what God wants is totally off.
BLM is a radical political agenda hiding behind a name that no one in good conscience can disagree with.
BLM increases racial divisions by promoting instances of white on black violence as evidence of America's/American's systematic racism. I disagree with the premise that racism is implicit in all of these interactions. I disagree that blaming systematic racism is the best way to address problems and inequalities afflicting black Americans.
This faulty premise goes straight to the core of BLM. The organization was founded after the not guilty verdict in the Zimmerman trial and really gained momentum after the Michael Brown shooting. In both cases, the media/BLM narrative was proven to be false.
BLM has used these and other similar instances to stoke civil unrest and violence in black communities. BLM ignores the condemnation of actual bad actors and uses them to impugn the character of millions of innocent Americans.
BLM is heavy on blame but light on solutions. One of their few actual policy proposals, defund police, is a terrible idea.
Promoting minority involvement in mountain biking and amplifying minority viewpoints are laudable goals, but there is no need for Pinkbike to throw their support behind an overtly political organization that has been extremely divisive in their own right.
As much as having dissenting opinions seems to have been socially outlawed, I’m going to have to agree somewhat.
Although I shouldn’t have to, I will preface this with the statement that I fully support action that stops this sort of police brutality. I also understand that statistically speaking, black Americans do significantly worse on average due to historical racist context and bad corrective policy dating back decades. I agree that the US should work to fix this.
This leads to my first point. Pink bike is an international website. Why am I logging on and reading American politics entirely unrelated to mountain biking? If you want to work to remove racism from the comments section, go for it! Don’t bring American politics into it!
The second is the presumption of correctness of the BLM organisations position and handling of this. More generally, the presumption that there is a unified set of values and facts that lead to an obvious and conclusive position to hold on this. This isn’t true even in America, let alone the whole world. I can guarantee that the majority of people in China have a very different view on this. Who gets to say they’re wrong? You? The loudest person screaming on Twitter? The richest celebrities?
By moderating the ideas in the comments you are directly asserting that there are correct ideas. That does in fact make you the thought police. Suppression of ideas is the hallmark of oppression, not matter how bad or dangerous we may believe those ideas to be.
This whole article is extremely opinionated while presenting itself as a outlay of the facts. I actually agree with many of the opinions but that doesn’t make them true or right. The world is after all, not black and white, but grey, even on the issues that seem entirely polarised on the surface.
At the end of the day, it’s a privately owned website and they do what they want but I would suggest pinkbike does some deep introspection and try to understand that they are not the arbiters of truth and neither is mainstream opinion. After all, not long ago, mainstream opinion was that the world is flat. The best option for a global publisher is simply to stay out of it!
Food for thought: while available internationally, PinkBike is a Canadian company. So, who's free speech and free press rules govern these articles and comments?
Thanks for the post. You fleshed out a lot of what I was getting at.
The presumption of correctness of BLM's position and handling is a serious issue here. The body of the article treats some pretty controversial BLM positions as fact and then wraps it up with an explicit endorsement. That's an incredible move for a mountain bike website and what prompted me to post. I'm equal parts shocked and concerned that BLM's rhetoric has permeated our culture to the point that a Canadian mountain bike website felt compelled to post this.
I wouldn't expect PB to endorse Trump or Trudeau, so why hitch their wagon to the highly politicized BLM. Does PB intend to endorse defunding the police, reparations, Marxism? You'll find all that and more on BLM's website and various twitter feeds, not to mention some of the vile things associated with the hashtag.
I had to roll my eyes at some of the cliches here but I'm on board with the bike related stuff. Promote minority involvement in cycling - Cool. Feature minority voices on the website - Cool. Crack down on overtly racist comments/posters - Cool. I don't see how it's relevant on this site, but I'm with the 99.9% of people against police brutality and for putting criminal cops in prison.
I'm disappointing that PB felt the need to jump on the America is systematically racist bandwagon. The author freely admits he doesn't intend to offer any solutions, so what's the point other than declaring yourself not racist? Don't worry PB, BLM isn't offering any solutions either.
This is just one of many issues with BLM. Its very name implies that a significant number of people don't care about black lives and tacitly labels its opponents as racist. I and many others reject the premise and disagree with their tactics and rhetoric.
www.ted.com/talks/christian_picciolini_my_descent_into_america_s_neo_nazi_movement_and_how_i_got_out
"By moderating the ideas in the comments you are directly asserting that there are correct ideas."
Notwithstanding the fact that PB are free to moderate as they see fit, there absolutely *are* correct ideas. That's why we have things like human rights. One of these is the right not to be discriminated against. I'm sure you can join the dots.
"That does in fact make you the thought police."
Well no, no it doesn't. People are free to think what they like, and quite obviously cannot be prevented from doing so. They are not however free to express what they like.
"Suppression of ideas is the hallmark of oppression, not matter how bad or dangerous we may believe those ideas to be."
A somewhat privileged viewpoint, that suppression of your ideas is the worst thing that could happen to you. The hallmark of oppression is actual oppression, in the context of which merely having your ideas suppressed would be a luxury compared to being trafficked for slavery, having your possessions seized, or being herded into ghettos and other such horrors.
And finally some ideas are dangerous which is why expressing them is prohibited by laws against incitement and the like. Free speech is not absolute. It does not mean - and has never meant - being able to say whatever you like, wherever you like, to whoever you like.
The second sentence seems to be the idea being overlooked on this forum right now.
Except the pinkbike comments sections are not part of the free press or media, nor is Congress (or any other government) deciding to limit speech. This is a decision by a private company to live by their own values on their comments section.
There is no more reasonable expectation that you should get to come here and say whatever you want, without consequence, then there is an expectation that I can interrupt the National Prayer breakfast to read from the Satanic Bible. The good news, is that if this pisses you off, there are lots of other websites that you can use.
"Just depressing that these racists are so cowardly about what they think is 'right' that they aren't brave enough to just come out and say it"
Despite your preemptive accusation, I posted by reasons for downvoting. 58 downvotes for me and counting and not a single post refuting my points. I suppose they are cowards?
There's a difference between supporting the idea (the hashtag? cringe) that black lives matter, and supporting the organization (BLM). They are not the same thing. I can support a movement to reduce criminal behavior by police officers and bring about actual equality without supporting a political organization like BLM. Notice that nowhere in the article did PinkBike actually endorse BLM, the organization. They simply acknowledged that, in order for everyone to actually matter, black (and other POC) lives have to matter, first. Do you understand the difference between believing in an idea (that black lives matter) and endorsing a political organization?
Millions of people of color across the united states leave their home every day wondering if they will make it to work without being accosted by the police. This is a legitimate fear they have based on past experience, which you would know to be true if you were paying any attention to the absolute endless stories coming out in the media of people's past experiences of exactly this.
But your concern is that you might be incorrectly labeled as a racist? Your ego is so fragile and you cling so desperately to the privilege you have that you care more about protecting your view of yourself than helping the people who are dying in the street? It's this very specific kind of cowardice and fear that letting other races have the same freedoms you enjoy will somehow affect your way of life that has resulted in the situation we see unfolding.
Every person protesting in the streets cares more about helping someone else than protecting their own safety. It is only the rule of law if it is applied evenly to all people, otherwise it is tyranny from the majority. People of color live under tyranny from their own police system and are not going to wait for your permission, or a timeline you are comfortable with, to be able to leave their homes without having to worry about being assaulted by the police.
Actions speak louder than words. Saying you support black lives or aren't a racist doesn't make it true. Living in a country where people of color are under constant threat and not being willing to stand up for them when you have the opportunity shows where you really stand and that those words are meaningless.
"Do you understand the difference between believing in an idea (that black lives matter) and endorsing a political organization?"
Of course I do, everyone supports the idea that black lives matter. The problem is that it is a deliberately politically loaded slogan that includes a broader agenda and a specific set of presuppositions. That agenda is advanced via the organization and the hashtag. Its very much like "Make America Great Again." I disagree with the premise and the agenda, hence why I downvoted the "#blacklivesmatter" post.
If my primary concern was not being labeled a racist I would never have commented.
There are thousands of organizations whose mission and goal is to help minority communities and address inequalities. You can promote these causes and denounce acts of racism without accepting BLM's presupposition that American culture is systematically racist and does not equally value black lives.
The BLM movement is forcing public compliance with its deceptively innocuous message, while its base pursues and promotes a radical agenda. Reparations, Marxist, and anti-white rhetoric are all closely tied to the movement. You can see it for yourself in their twitter feeds.
My concern and opinion is that BLM's divisive message is escalating tensions and doing more harm than good. At least two innocent black men were killed by rioters this week.
Its a loaded statement because it implies our culture and institutions do not adequately value black lives. I think this is a terrible staring point for debate.
I also don't believe the BLM movement is interested in unity or compromise. Check out their official twitter feeds and you will see some disturbing rhetoric. I posted a quote from BLM Chicago's twitter earlier that celebrated the burning of the Amazon distribution center. PB deleted it.
It poisons what could be fruitful discussions on topics like police reform. You can't engage in good faith reforms when you know one side really wants to burn it all down.
And your response is I don't think the American system is racist and lets not escalate tensions. How is it even possible for you to say that? When a population is tyrannized by their government it is just a matter of time before they rise up against them. People can and will get hurt along the way, but to suggest that others should live under those conditions because you're pretty comfortable says a lot about your character.
As far as BLM I mean who cares. They might be leading the movement but no one is talking about putting them in charge of government and the extreme ends of their rhetoric will never be supported by the population. Besides it's only logical to suggest views more extreme than what you're actually trying to achieve so that you can meet the other side half way. It's basic bargaining.
" there absolutely *are* correct ideas. That's why we have things like human rights"
Universal human rights is a human invention that is barely a century old now. Previous human rights declarations would exclude different races or women as they saw fit. The word universal is also misleading as many countries do not agree on the content of these documents. To suggest that we have perfected this and there is no room for dissenting opinions on the status quo is unbelievably naive.
Perhaps it's worth taking a moment to remember that correctness is only that which the majority agrees with. We are slaves to opinion and perspective. An easy example is to remember again that not so long ago, it was 'correct' that the world is flat. Think what we will realise we were wrong about in another couple of centuries?
Second point is semantics.
"A somewhat privileged viewpoint, that suppression of your ideas is the worst thing that could happen to you"
An amazing misrepresentation here. I did not suggest that suppression of ideas was the ultimate oppression. I said it was 'a hallmark'. - "A hallmark is a distinctive characteristic of something". Where there is suppression of ideas, you risk finding oppression of people. Not necessarily the same person in both cases.
While avoiding a full on history lesson, I would suggest looking at Hitlers and Stalins regimes as blatant examples of it. Or simply read about propaganda and censorship. I will avoid injecting my political opinions here but it is not me I'm worried about in this instance.
The last point seems to muddle ideas and speech? I would argue incitement is an action, not an idea. I'm not suggesting illegal content should be allowed in the pinkbike comments section. I'm not sure where you're going with the free speech part? It depends which country you are in, it depends what you mean by "being able to"...
Damn. That’s a tough reality to have to face. True today as it ever was. But damn.
Whilst I agree with you wholeheartedly that freedom of speech and expression is and should be tempered under laws such as libel, incitement to violence and so on, I have to echo what @Mini-Pinner has said about the assertion that 'there absolutely *are* correct ideas'.
I have lived for over a quarter of a century in Japan after having spent a virtually identical amount of time in the UK prior. I can assure you that the concept of which ideas are 'correct' from the maelstrom of opinion that is the myriad of unique societies that make up our world, is both politically, temporally and culturally relative.
Attempting to distil those down into absolute truths takes a huge amount of intellectual effort and is not a guarantee of success even then. My ideas personally of what is universally true has without doubt been changed by spending 25 years in a culture far removed from that of my country of birth, and I am convinced that what you and I may consider as being universal will look outdated a century from now.
Anyways, I appreciate the discussions here. Thanks.
"How can you be dismissive of the fact that people of color all over the united states, including many well educated successful people, are telling you that they are being tyrannized and targeted by the police. That every year we are now catching on video police officers murdering unarmed and often completely innocent people of color."
I'm not being dismissive. I understand that racial inequities exist and that people are hurting as a result. That doesn't mean I have to accept the views of all that purport to represent the oppressed. Many well educated successful people of all races disagree with the goals and tactics of the BLM movement.
"And your response is I don't think the American system is racist and lets not escalate tensions. How is it even possible for you to say that? When a population is tyrannized by their government it is just a matter of time before they rise up against them. People can and will get hurt along the way, but to suggest that others should live under those conditions because you're pretty comfortable says a lot about your character."
Forgive me for advocating against a violent uprising, you know, I just live live here. Maybe I'd think differently if I was sitting comfortably up in Canada. I don't believe the statistics or anecdotal data justify that kind of rhetoric and many people agree with me, minorities included. A majority of minorities have a favorable opinion of local police and are in favor of hiring more police officers. We could do better of course, but we would be much better off focusing our efforts on lowering the crime rate than raging against the system every time the inevitable incident occurs. This focus on racism detracts from real reforms. I'd like to see an actual discussion on eliminating police unions, eliminating no-knock warrants, modifying use of force protocols, etc.
That's my core problem with the BLM movement. Every incident of white on black violence is attributed to racism by default and must be plastered all over the news as evidence of this war on black people. We could give BLM everything they want right now and tragedies are still going to happen. There are over 15,000 murders a year in the U.S. and about 1,000 people a year are killed by police. When will institutional racism be cured? I fear never by BLM's definition. Every time some white guy does something stupid or evil we will be right back where we started.
"As far as BLM I mean who cares. They might be leading the movement but no one is talking about putting them in charge of government and the extreme ends of their rhetoric will never be supported by the population. Besides it's only logical to suggest views more extreme than what you're actually trying to achieve so that you can meet the other side half way. It's basic bargaining."
First, thats an incredibly generous take for BLM. I doubt anyone would get upvotes on here for saying don't worry about that far-right organization, their rhetoric will never be supported and they're basically just bargaining. Secondly, I wouldn't be so sure. BLM is obviously a pretty powerful movement as evidenced by the fact were discussing it on this site. Antifa has had free reign in the streets for the past week, far-left ideologues have an iron grip on our university system, and a socialist almost won the Democratic presidential nomination the last two cycles. Third, their extreme rhetoric is held in check by reasonable people stepping up and saying something despite mainstream pressure not to.
No, simply taking your post at face value, but how gracious of you.
"Universal human rights is a human invention that is barely a century old now. Previous human rights declarations would exclude different races or women as they saw fit."
Factual, but there's no point being made here. All ideas are human inventions. Is it your position that the newness of an idea correlates to its (lack of) validity? I would not agree. The US Civil Right Act is barely *fifty* years old. And so what if previous declarations were deficient? Naturally things have gone before which we would not countenance today. That is human progress.
"The word universal is also misleading as many countries do not agree on the content of these documents."
You introduced 'the word universal' so are attacking yourself here.
"To suggest that we have perfected this and there is no room for dissenting opinions on the status quo is unbelievably naive."
Nowhere do I suggest things are perfect, but dissenting opinions on basic human rights? Be my guest.
"Second point is semantics."
If you say so. The only other meaning doesn't apply either.
"An amazing misrepresentation here. I did not suggest that suppression of ideas was the ultimate oppression. I said it was 'a hallmark'."
No. You said it was 'THE hallmark' (my emphasis). Singular. A small but profound difference.
"I would suggest looking at Hitlers and Stalins regimes as blatant examples of it. Or simply read about propaganda and censorship."
Conflation of PB's moderation policy with actual fascist regimes. I'll just leave that one there.
"I would argue incitement is an action, not an idea."
You don't have to argue it. That's the very point I was making. Incitement is tantamount to an action, but is expressed as an idea. This is why we cannot defend the expression of ideas, in your words "not matter how bad or dangerous we may believe those ideas to be.".
So yes, you are correct.
I’m sorry I’m just still trying to wrap my head around this mindblower
“ Its a loaded statement because it implies our culture and institutions do not adequately value black lives. I think this is a terrible staring point for debate.”
They don’t. End of discussion.
And apparently an uprising was ok for all the right wingers marching on state capitals with guns but it’s not ok for those in support of the BLM movement?
I can’t even.
TBH, after 25 years here, I consider myself to have morphed into some kind of 'Zelig' character that has learnt to adapt their way of thinking to the situation in hand. My opinions about what is the right thing to do are (too?) flexible now compared to when I lived in the UK.
I hope that the concept of universal human rights takes hold...
I am less than optimistic about it if the truth be told since we all tend to show the ability to be infinitely pliable in the right (by which I mean 'wrong') circumstances.
Take care Sir.
You introduced 'the word universal' so are attacking yourself here."
I was criticising the premise of universal human rights to try and show that ideas which seem universally good on the surface can be nuanced. I was not insinuating that you brought it up.
"Conflation of PB's moderation policy with actual fascist regimes. I'll just leave that one there"
Probably my fault for not clarifying that one. If it was just pinkbike then I wouldn't care. But it is not just pinkbike, This sort of suppression of ideas is spreading throughout institutions, public and private, across the western world including social media which is the main form of information acquisition for a large proportion of the population. There is no room being left for nuance or even facts in many cases where what appears to be a strict narrative is enforced.
Is it a fact to state that 'males and females are different'? I believe so (and so does science) but I have seen people banned for posting it online. I could pick much more controversial and important statements that give the same effect but don't want to distract from the point. The point being that if pinkbike and every other forum bans statements like this because they are deemed 'wrong ideas' then we are in a very bad place. The next war will likely be fought entirely with (dis)information. It may have already started. The cracks are starting to show. Do not be deceived as to the seriousness of these actions.
"Nowhere do I suggest things are perfect, but dissenting opinions on basic human rights? Be my guest."
Challenge accepted:
Human rights are predicated entirely on a modern western centric view of the world, humanity and morality.
The first thing to understand is that human rights are not intrinsic. The idea of intrinsic rights is a fallacy in itself as rights are a human invention, and thus cannot be intrinsic to human life which predates human invention, but merely assigned (not usually debated but some people don't seem to understand this). The only way you can get around this is holding a belief in a deity which has assigned the rights (god given rights). Obviously this is very limiting as we must rely on religious texts to identify these rights (which usually do not fit well into modern western society).
Because these rights are invented, we must choose a basis for them. There is no basis that satisfies the values of all different belief systems. The UDHR is supposedly the standard for all countries in the UN yet many of the countries don't even pretend to adhere to it. Other countries outright deny its validity. You and I may believe that the value system of Saudi Arabia is rubbish but that is just an opinion. Opinions by definition cannot be correct.
Want a specific example of dissenting opinions on human rights:
blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2012/12/10/1569
Finally, some perhaps ironic passages from the universal declaration of human rights:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
"Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance."
If you truly believe the way forward is to ban the transmission of ideas which someone (who even gets to decide?) deems incorrect then we truly have learned nothing as a society.
And fighting racism with racism lead to nowhere. It just divides the people even further.
This black woman speeks excatly what I think of BLM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItopNgRQiuY
Feel free to downvote, not that I care.
But let me tell you that the worst racists are those race baiting people who see racism everywhere and constantly tell POC and blacks that they are poor victims that can never archive something on their own instead of helping them to overcome their circumstances. Those peole are real problem, because they hold black people back.
And we have so much upvoted hyprocrites in the comments it's almost absurd. People who preach love and spit hate at the same time.
I hope Pinkbike makes the right decisions to prevent bad people from both sides taking over the comments.
A few generations ago society also preferred the more moderate MLK approach over the "extremist" Nation of Islam.
Pretty obvious why a lot of people think now may be the time to try the less passive method.
Is this a case of people distorting the movement? Media twisting the message? Seems to be a rather strong disconnect between how some view the movement and what the founders declare as their mandate blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe
(Or
Is relativism at play? Green peace being a great example, freedom fighters or terrorists, depending on your lens)
Love the "both sides" comment, really an enlightened centrist...
Good job, don’t address any of his arguments, but instead attack him on his nationality. You’re just as much part of the problem.
But, hey, defend him if you'd like. But bear in mind that he thinks that the "worst racists are those race bating people"; I'd argue that the people who exterminated millions of Jews are worse on that score. Do you agree with him, or me on that point?
***Please note that I acknowledge that America exterminated or displaced millions of Native people, as well as owned, raped, tortured, mutilated and killed millions of African slaves. I'd put both of those on the same level as what the Nazis did. Both are far worse than "race baiting", which is the point I'm trying to make here.***
Sorry, but bringing nazi Germany in this conversation is totally misplaced, regardless of what you’re trying to say. Why not start with “I dissagree with you, because...” and leave the stuff that happened 80 years ago and has nothing to do with current day Germany out of it? It really doesn’t add anything to the conversation.
Right, you’re clearly not getting it. I’ll just stick to my original comment: you’re just as much part of the problem as the racists are.
"Challenge accepted:"
Sorry if I wasn't clear. It wasn't a challenge. You had suggested that my position was there was no room for debate. That's not the case at all. Having said that I don't personally regard the tenets of any organised religion as a valid basis for such dissent. They have no consistency or agreement within themselves let alone with something like the UDHR.
But this has become a borderline metaphysical discussion on the nature of human rights. Let's get back to the crux of the matter and your original point which you have alluded to here.
"If you truly believe the way forward is to ban the transmission of ideas which someone (who even gets to decide?) deems incorrect then we truly have learned nothing as a society."
The way forward? This is already how we do things, and is how a civilised society operates, but by collective consent. It doesn't hinge on the decision of an individual 'someone' unless you're suggesting we live under a bona-fide dictatorship (I'm sure you are not). Contrary to your view I think this shows we have learned, and continue to learn. The only alternative is for the transmission of all ideas - such as those which are hateful, exploitative, or inflammatory - to be completely unexamined and therefore unchecked. Not a world I want to live in, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
Black live matter is a joke. They creates divisions more than they unite.
You can find thousands of POC saying black live matter is good and I can find thousands saying they are a scam. Your answer will be they are not representative of black community Or they are conservative, always that answer.
Mr Floyd was a long way criminal who put gun on pregnant woman. Did many years in jail. Was on heavy drug doing illegal stuff.
That have nothing to do with bike accessibility.
Pinkbike should stick to bike stuff and leave politics for other site.
People’s glorified that. Nobody deserves die like he did. Its horrible.
But its not about race. Both know each other.
Get your information at the good place.
All live matter and F off if you think im racist.
If you don’t want to read the article then treat it like an e-bike article and ignore it. But I would suggest you read it, read the comments, and try to increase your empathy for those who are less privileged than you.
I have subtext in All live matter also.
Black live matter too.
My grammar is not perfect but my reading is good.
I have nothing against Ebike.
They don’t pretend to be what they are not.
Correct me if it make you feel better.
I will appreciated.
Please try to be empathetic.
The world has a pretty shameful history when it comes to 'respect for people from other groups'.
Maybe when you say "all lives matter" you are thinking about that truthfully; I do too. I think everyone's life is important.
But I will not use that phrase myself any more.
Why not?
Because that phrase has been used by groups of some people who do not want to believe there is any racism in societies across the world.
Even if you personally think that 'everyone's life matters equally' (as I do), please, please be understanding that, if you genuinely would like to see any ~ism stop, it is a good idea to listen to the desires of the victims of that ~ism, and stop using the phrase 'all lives matter'
Thanks for reading. Peace and have a good day Sir.
There are also quite selfish reasons for having everyone more or less happy. Keeping a group of people underprivileged in order to keep the privileged group happy historically usually ends up in a more or less violent revolt. Someone wrote that he's frightened of the riots on the streets and therefore doesn't want to change the status quo. I'd say, it's a bit too late now. Do you think riots are caused by happy people? If you don't like riots, ensure that people don't have the reasons to riot.
Disproportions and inequalities always result in social tensions, and these are in almost no one's interest (unless you sell weapons or pitchforks and don't care about your long term security).
Through a local org I built up a dirt jumper for a kid here in Denver last year and by coincidence ran into him at one of our local dirt jump parks. Dude was throwing back flips, can-cans and suicides like it was nothing. The best part was that the other younger kids at the park idolized him and he was being such an awesome role model. Pretty confident in saying that his life was changed by a couple hundred bucks that somebody gave him.
I've even seen similar orgs in Philly where I went to school. We used to have hundreds of kids just ride down Broad Street stopping traffic while popping wheelies and manuals. Cops didn't even care because they knew if they were riding bikes, they weren't doing anything worse.
Maybe it's unrealistic to say that Evil, Trek, Yeti, Spesh, etc should start handing out free bikes, but look around your city to find orgs that help get kids on street bikes. Super awesome way to change a life.
'1st amendment rights', 'the left' & 'the right', what PB 'should' or 'shouldn't do', 'he said'/'she said', 'they offended me', 'you're a racist', 'no, I'm not a racist, you're a SJW', this dude is actually doing something about it which is what @brianpark is trying to spark here. If we all just stop, listen & put our collective energy to focus on solutions, no matter how big or small, we can make a difference. We as the mountain bike community can show the rest of the world that we are part of the solution....#actionsnotwordsmatter
Also more budget bike / HT content / park / street / urban riding content.
Every Black mountain biker I know has experienced racism while riding. Both of my kids have. I have had to confront racist parents at races who we overheard telling their kids “I don’t care what else happens, but you better beat the black kid ...” My daughter has been questioned at trailheads about where she got her bike, how she affords it, who is she here with, etc, etc, etc. Then there is the covert racism that manifests itself through lack or representation in staffing, photos, sponsorships, and worst of all, silence about the above.
Again, Pinkbike, thank you for acknowledging that just because its not happening doesn’t mean it’s not happening. And thank you to everyone else speaking out as well.
I'm really sorry to hear that you have to keep dealing with these things while you're trying to enjoy this pasttime.
I stand with you! #enoughisenough #blacklivesmatter
I just have to say, that I've seen this type of thing happen before, and it hurts me that someone in this world can have so much hatred for someone who has not wronged them in the slightest. I try to confront, and call out those who say stuff like that, and hope that they listen, but I cannot be sure. To this day I cannot find a reasonable explanation for their hatred, but it is shocking.
About a year back, my aunt adopted a 7 year old from Sierra Leone. She has been living in NYC, with two white parents, who try their best to prevent her from being exposed to racisim, and after the first few weeks, she had already gotten a series of horrible comments said to her. A 7Y/O IN NYC! I could go on about this forever, but I think a lot of white folks don't understand the daily struggles of people of color.
I'm not saying we don't struggle, as many of our lives are hard, just one side has it unfairly worse, and that needs to change.
In the US, natives are more likely to live in poverty, native men are more likely to killed by cops, and native women are more likely to sexually or physically assaulted than any other groups in America. Yet people are always silent, especially from the BLM community.
Growing up in New York, I was called a chink no less than 20 times, all by black people. It’s a common opinion in the US amongst Asian Americans that we experience the most racism from the black community. While this is a generalization, you’ll never see outrage when Asians are targeted by blacks (look at the dozens of cases since COVID started).
www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2017/04/19/524571669/model-minority-myth-again-used-as-a-racial-wedge-between-asians-and-blacks
Racism is a mental disorder that many people of different races* suffer and direct towards many other people of different races*.
*As a mixed ‘race’ American, I personally hate that word with a passion. We are not dogs. We do not have races/breeds/whatever. We are all human.
..is hilarious
That said, the current protest movement is an expression of grief and anger, and responses of "but what about X race" or "I've suffered too" are insensitive and unhelpful. They get internalized as minimizing someone else's pain. When someone is grieving after their child passes away, nobody stands up and goes "well children die every day, we should save all children everywhere not just yours." Like, it's true that we should save the lives of all children everywhere, but to the grieving parent that's a pretty despicable thing to say in this moment.
The lack of care for issues that run parallel to those of BLM that are disregarded by this and other media outlets because they’re not on trend is thinly veiled racism, in my most humble, brown opinion
Please explain to me how reforming policing policies would only help black people?
No?
Interesting.
Slavery has been outlawed in our country for a minority of our history. Many of our parents were born before civil rights! What if my grandparents and parents were prevented from owning anything, prevented from having a good education, and treated as lesser human beings for their entire lives? Where would I be right now?
I know some people are able to bootstrap their way into success from hard upbringings, but the vast majority of rich and privileged people got there by having rich and privileged parents and grandparents (like me). Please think about how fair that is, and where you'd be without rich, privileged people supporting you.
The problem of the poor not being able to get into MTB in US is, well, is on the 100th place of vital humanity problems. And still poor people in US probably earn more money than me, not to mention really poor people in Africa who are dying of hunger.
I really understand #blacklivesmatter, but I can hardly see any connection to bike industry.
Maybe next time PB, when you get another $10k bike which basically rides like a $3k bike, give it a little thought.
Just my 2c, hope no one will feel offended, cause it was not my intention.
Change needs to happen everywhere, so where we can make change, we should, even if it's not what some would consider hugely influential compared to other areas.
Seriously, take 15 minutes to watch that little Netflix piece if you ever get the chance. It's more eloquent than I am.
www.incomemovement.com
First and foremost, it needs to be said that it’s never too late for this conversation to come to the fore and I’m very glad to see it taking place on what is probably the most well established nexus point for mountain bikers worldwide. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’ve been mountain biking for a little over 23 years and the fact that the number of encounters with black mountain bikers that I’ve had in all of those years can be counted on one hand (three to be precise) has always left me questioning my place in this sport.
My personal experiences with the wider mtb community have on the whole been generally positive across the years. Whilst I do usually feel welcome out on the trails, it is still always somewhat daunting to turn up to a bike park, trail centre or trail head knowing that I absolutely will draw more attention than your usual mtb’er. Now I’ve heard the tired argument that this is a “me” problem, rather than a “you” problem over and over again and whilst I would be inclined to agree if this attention always came from a good place or general curiosity, sadly, that has not always been so. In circumstances where I’ve been greeted with outright suspicion, I always try to reflect post event and question whether I did anything wrong or otherwise to evoke a negative reaction to my presence. The saddening conclusion though is all too often that the only differentiating factor between me and those around me was simply the colour of my skin.
I should probably draw some perspective here though and say that on the whole, I feel that being black is less of a deciding factor in how I am treated when out on the trails than it is in other social situations such as going shopping, using public transport, encounters law enforcement, international travel and at work. What I’m trying to say is that whilst there’s definitely room for improvement in the mtb world, it’s far from being an unwelcome sport.
To those of you asking whether Pinkbike has a role in discussing race - the answer is yes it absolutely does. This is a societal problem that everyone has a place in addressing and it isn’t going to go away until everyone acknowledges it. If as a non-black (or any other under-represented minority for that matter) person you disagree with this, consider the fact that up until now, you’ve had the luxury of choosing when you wished to ignore issues of race; this is not a privilege that all of us have been fortunate enough to share. Put simply, I have to live with my skin colour and I can’t simply turn it off or look the other way when it isn’t working to my benefit. If this community can take the time to make sure that it does its part to challenge racism and unconscious bias, the effects of that don’t just stay within PB - the reach of the message is amplified whenever PB members have those same conversations outside of their mtb’ing peer group circles.
On a more positive note though, it is fantastic to see that Pinkbike are not just paying lip service to the cause and do intend to make very real changes going forward. It’s also very reassuring to see mtb brands such as Specialized, Santa Cruz and Forbidden making very public stands with their positions on current events and racism when they could just choose to turn a blind eye and bet on this all blowing over. Whilst some have criticised their timing and sincerity, from this black person’s point of view, the very fact that they’re making such public statements on a such divisive issues, knowing the potential risks that come with doing so shows a commitment from them to be part of a better future. One that includes people like me. I therefore have nothing short of utter gratitude towards them, Pinkbike and all of the inclusive and open minded members on here.
I’m going to close by echoing others comments and suggesting that everyone takes the time to look up Eliot Jackson’s video message. He offers a unique perspective from a top WC level that deserves to be heard if you haven’t already done so.
Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
TRIGGERED - Even when nobody has been 'triggered'
VIRTUE SIGNALLING - Always used incorrectly as well
SJW - As if wanting justice is a bad thing?! Isn't that part of 'the american way', chase?
SNOWLFAKE - Without realising the immense irony
You seem like the kind of person who thinks Tyler Durden is cool.
But back to the cycling world, to be honest I see no harm in the way it has developed. It wasn't intended to be a white male dominated scene. It just turned out this way. It takes a good bit of money to get into the sport. Especially for a kid who doesn't just break stuff, but also outgrows it. This isn't exclusive to cycling, but also to other sports and also to arts (like playing musical instruments). But it isn't intentional. Those big brands we have now have all been small, excited to see their business and the scene grow. They weren't in the position to do charity back then. Back in the days as I kid I would have loved a BMX too but these just were too expensive. Later as a teen I was spending half the money I made (delivering newspapers) on keeping my own bike rolling. No way I would have been able to afford a BMX or MTB (and ride it in the way it was intended). Only much later as a student I bought my first MTB, joined a group and got hooked. So sure, if the money was there I would have started earlier. But as it wasn't, I just started later. But I never blamed this on anything or anyone. The money just wasn't there. That's no blaming matter.
As things are now, I think BMX and MTB are getting more accessible to more people. More trails mean you don't need a car to get to some trails to ride. And more good pumptracks in urban areas make the latest drivetrain and suspension nonsense obsolete, just basic skills for everyone to learn who has got access to a half decent set of wheels. So if there is one company making riding more inclusive, I'd give that award to Velosolutions.
As for role models, I get that these can be inspirations. But if you're looking for similarities to yourself, you're looking at the wrong aspects. Why? Did these actual role models have that too? Which white male would Wade Simmons have been looking up to? Was he even? Or was he just shredding it for the love of it. Pick your role models based on what they do, not who they are on the outside. I've been rooting for Anneke Beerten ever since she was riding for BeOne. Because she's been working so hard following her own path and performing great doing so. I love both Matt Hunter as well as Hannah Barnes for so clearly loving what they do. Ryan Leech for being so skilled, friendly, positive and constructive. Picking role models and inspirations merely for being the same color and/or same sex as you is so limited. You'll be missing out on so many opportunities of being inspired, why should you? I'm a death metal (music) fan ever since I was 13 or so. Good luck extracting "black" role models from that scene. Chuck Schuldiner has always been my greatest inspiration. Sure he doesn't have the same skin color but when I listen to his music it is exactly how I feel. Surely that matters more than skin tone.
So on one side I'm not necessarily against the way the cycling scene as it is as it hasn't evolved into this because of bad intentions. And (as a "black" guy) have never felt unwelcome. But I get that just as us blokes feel a company feels more fun as it becomes more diverse (that is, when more ladies join, clearly enjoy riding and take ownership over their own development as riders), "white" people may also feel better when people from different cultures (or at least with different colors) join. Not sure if that's the case as I haven't been on that side of the fence obviously. But if that's the goal the sure, go for it. But don't feel bad for it being as it is. Again, I think the best thing that could make riding bikes properly more accessible would be to have more public Velosolution tracks everywhere. They're inclusive as can be. Kids can develop proper skills on whatever gear they own and if they really love it, they'll get their own mountainbike eventually.
After growing up as a teen in the nineties it seemed like everything was getting well. Berlin wall down, Nelson Mandela free, cold war finished, the future looked bright. The war in Yugoslavia sure was a shock with polarization as if it were the WOII again. But it also resolved during those same 90's. Then suddenly, 9/11. I'm an atheist so I don't care about religion but the sudden discrimination of muslims kinda struck me as "we're back to zero". And Chuck Schuldiner died that same year so it felt like there was no one left with some sanity to put things straight. Or well, that's how my head worked back then
So yeah from my "armchair" perspective: racism is a huge issue, but it isn't necessarily bigger than other issues I'm seeing and which aren't getting the attention they deserve. Racism is bad but luckily I haven't seen anyone saying it is good. Whereas when the US tried to legalize gay marriage, there were indeed people there, holding bibles and trying to hold it back. And who the hell was even holding back equal rights for women back in the days (and in loads of places even still nowadays)? Somehow that's stuff that worries me much, much more.
On one hand I could join the parade out of solidarity with what's happened in the US. Yet at the same time it would feel unfair. As if I were saying I've been treated poorly by the "whites". I haven't. I've never felt an outsider, never felt treated differently. My girlfriend is white (we have to daughters), my brother's girlfriend is white (they have three sons), everything is all good and tolerant down here. Tolerant enough to make jokes about hair color, skin color, sex, sexuality, music taste, anything. Being different shouldn't be a taboo.
Well said! That's what I miss sometimes these days - tolerance.
Cheers mate.
After the Christchurch shootings, Ardern basically said something along the lines of "Stay together, take care of each other, talk. Don't let this individual fracture our great community." Now, I'm not here to debate Trump. But ideally you'd like the president to say "This problem is bigger and deeper than we thought, in the police system we're all supposed to trust and rely on. Send us your stories, your experiences (good and bad) so that we can find out how big the problem really is. Based on that we will improve our transparency and review our training so that the system will perform the way all our citizens deserve." Everyone will feel heard and it won't hurt anyone. You've got a fair chance the police system will actually cooperate. Heavily reprimanding officers when getting caught red handed doing something that's ingrained in the system anyway will only reduce transparency and won't solve anything. Just like a bully in a classroom. You don't solve the issue punishing the bully and/or his/her sidekicks when they get caught. Instead the bully is likely insecure (typically bullied too in the past) and needs help, support and something constructive to do. Heck, look at the history of those officers who crossed the line like this, look at the history of those who committed a mass shooting (Pearl Jam recently released the uncensored video of their Jeremy tune, also watch the classic Full Metal Jacket movie), they've often had a history at the receiving end of being bullied. So yeah, solve that. Give therapy to those who need that. It will improve matters more than sending those few individuals to jail for a decade or more.
"I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.”"
Also, Kx is generally correct, BLM isn't BLM To The Exclusion Of All Others, it's quite obviously BLM too, as in BLM as much as any other, as in everyone's life matters equally. The people who assume the former are being jerks.
I recommend looking at the history of Maoist struggle sessions in communist China if you want to see your ideology reaching its logical conclusion.
The folks running this site, like most other companies, are doing this because they are afraid of an extremely intolerant minority attacking them and harming their business model of reviewing plastic bikes made in Chinese sweatshops. That's all.
The folks running this site where clear about the why and it has nothing to do with plastic bikes made in China.
It's not a political movement, but in the USA where politics is everything these days i'm sure it's easy for one to assume as such.
Fact - we segregated African Americans
Fact - we bred violence into their community through slavery and segregation
Fact - we have a crime issue
Fact - we have a police brutality issue
Solution - education, education, education!!!! For everyone not just the black community. I think funding education into the community through collegiate sports could be a solution. The money earned through collegiate sports, literally comes from a lot of these community’s that need more resources.
Nope, no police brutality exists. You have to be willingly not watching any social media of cops beating the f*ck out of people peacefully protesting to believe that its not a problem.
As a white man, granted living in Canada where I at least hope things are a little bit less bad, never once have I been concerned that a police officer would harass me for no reason. If an officer was out of line and violating my rights I would 100% feel comfortable pointing that out to them. The endless stories from black Americans where they feel like so much as opening their mouth to a police officer will literally get them shot in the head should be shocking to you.
You need to realize that their experience is so far removed from anything you could possibly relate to that you simply can't understand how bad it is. Anyone who says that police are just enforcing the rule of law don't seem to appreciate that it's only the rule of law if everyone is treated equally. If a specific segment is targeted by that law enforcement it is tyranny. How long do you expect people to live under tyranny and just accept it? This is why people are protesting.
Part cops get a very bad rap. They have a crazy tough job and I hope it’s not lost in all this.. However it’s bigger than that, if we care for the human race we have to help and educate communities. What played out in the streets (everything) was extremely eye opening.
-Every day police officers kill 3 people and injure 150 that need medical treatment at a hospital
-1 out of every 13 people killed by a firearm in the U.S., intentionally or unintentionally, were killed by a police officer.
-1 in 11 people killed by firearms in all homicides and law enforcement legal interventions combined were killed by the police. That’s 9% of all gun-related homicides and legal interventions.
-1 in 11 people who die from law enforcement interactions were unarmed.
-Out of all homicides for all ages and races resulting from any form of assault, with any weapon, 1 in 15 people, or 6.5%, die as a result of a police interaction.
-Of all injuries leading to an emergency department visit or hospitalization, for all people of all ages, 1 in 30 is inflicted by the police. That’s 3.3% of all injuries requiring medical attention.
yes, you read that correctly
3.3% OF ALL INJURIES IN A HOSPITAL ER ARE FROM POLICE
of course this data is open to some bit of interpretation and i'm sure that there are some methodological holes in it somewhere, but as for now I haven't seen a better study on the matter. Cheers, and here's to being more open minded, and maybe using the resources available to every one of us here. Remember, this is the information age. You can find out the answer to just about anything if you take the time to look.
injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/23/1/27.full
www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2016/07/26/1-in-13-people-who-die-from-gunshots-were-killed-by-police-with-blacks-at-higher-risk/#6b65b203e6d8