Results: Qualifying - Fort William DH World Cup 2019

Jun 1, 2019
by Ed Spratt  
Marine Cabirou on the charge and planning to keep the throttle wide open until Sunday.

The track in Fort William has been looking wet and wild all weekend and it was no different for qualifying. In the Elite Men, Loris Vergier would set the fastest time down the mountain, his time would look untouchable for most of qualifying and only last years winner Amaury Pierron would get within four seconds of his time. Troy Brosnan would cross the line third, only 4.596 seconds off the pace. Reece Wilson would get fourth after putting down a great run, he will look to repeat his breakout performance from last year. Wet weather specialist Danny Hart took the final podium spot just over five seconds behind Vergier.

With current series leader Tahnee Seagrave out with an injury sustained in practice, it was all to play for in the Elite Women's qualifying. Tracey Hannah would make the most of this opportunity and would lead the women by over four seconds. Marine Cabirou would put down a great time that would sit her in second and Rachel Atherton was up at split one but would slowly make her way down the rest of the course. Nina Hoffmann is having a great season so far and she would get another great result just over 10 seconds back from Hannah, Kate Weatherly would complete the Elite Women's podium 17.125 seconds off the pace.

In the Juniors, it was no surprise to see Thibaut Daprela and Vali Holl top the standings once again. The Junior Men's field would see some great competition with the top 10 within eight seconds of each other. In the Junior Women, Mille Johnset would back up her fast timed training results and would be only 15 seconds behind Vali Holl.


Elite Men:

1st. Loris Vergier: 4:34.305
2nd. Amaury Pierron: +0.628
3rd. Troy Brosnan: +4.596
4th. Reece Wilson: +5.378
5th. Danny Hart: +5.611


Elite Women:

1st. Tracey Hannah: 5:18.182
2nd. Marine Cabirou: +4.437
3rd. Rachel Atherton: +10.643
4th. Nina Hoffmann: +10.778
5th. Kate Weatherly: +17.125



Junior Men:

1st. Thibaut Daprela: 4:50.395
2nd. Luke Meier-Smith: +2.421
3rd. Luke Mumford: +3.059
4th. Jamie Edmondson: +3.379
5th. Ethan Shandro: +3.674


Junior Women:

1st. Vali Holl: 5:36.238
2nd. Mille Johnset: +15.983
3rd. Anna Newkirk: +21.626
4th. Lauryne Chappaz: +1:30.563
5th. Sabine Thies: +1:51.169


Full Results
Elite Men


Elite Women


Junior Men


Junior Women


The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.

The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.

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426 Comments

  • + 145
 Don't mind me!
If I read anything about transgender athletes, I am freaking out and now it's my time to shine: why don't they separate them into their own class like mw for men becoming women and wm for women become men?
Don't get me wrong but even if they are 12 month below the given testosterone level, they still have a different physical level. Like in other sports were transgender women (mw) break several records in deadlifting, trackrecord 400m etc.
In the gravity sport like Downhill it will be unfair af. Its like letting a little less pumped and prepped Loic Bruni race in pro women's class and let him dominate every course by -20sec or more to the other ladies which is not fair.
If you spin it around, no transgender men (wm) will achieve anything like that! Because it is not possible.

Sorry for annoying anyone! Big Grin

Well, Tracey Hannah seems to be on fire right now.
I am really rooting for Hart or Greenland for men and don't count Blenki out, his is checking fasting wet condition.
  • + 39
 Did I miss something or is there now a transgender athlete competing in world cup DHs?
  • + 25
 @scott-townes: Kate Weatherly. 5th in Elite Women.
  • + 92
 What if you were the chick who missed out on qualifying by one spot. $2k down the drain for flights prep etc to get sent home because the rules haven’t fully been formed? (If I understand correctly)
  • - 123
flag mkotowski1 (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:03) (Below Threshold)
 You say it is impossible for a transgender man to win on an elite level. Basically saying a woman could never compete with a man on the same level and win. The future may hold some surprises yet.
  • + 1
 @kind0fimportant: did not know that one is already competing. :O
  • + 8
 @mtbmaniatv: def has not been easy ride for Kate weatherly either
  • - 21
flag Robo88 (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:12) (Below Threshold)
 @nusterloo - well you're clearly way more informed than the IOC on this matter. It's absolutely appropriate that you should be the arbiter on this incredibly complex and sensitive issue that you've neatly packaged into a nice little binary issue.
  • + 57
 It's all right to call people dicks and stuff even though the rules state no personal attacks, as that always goes unpunished on pinkbike. Don't dare to misgender or deadname someone though. You will fry for that. Sticks and stones.
  • + 7
 It's a fair point you make. It's only fair that trans athletes get their own class to allow a larger field. Reckon Kate makes a good ambassador for it.
  • + 5
 @mtbmaniatv: It seems like the rules are there and they are being followed? If these sports bodies are just trying to figure all this stuff out right now... that's fine, it's a new complication/issue. Can't really fault the specific athlete yet I suppose. Popular opinion of fellow competitors & science should help settle what's deemed fair pretty soon I would think.

If I had a girlfriend competing that has dedicated a ton of time to trying to be the best in their sport, I'd have a pretty valid & strong opinion about the fairness of this specific issue. But I don't. There really is no flip side for me to ever have a comparable situation. Except maybe a sandbagger dropping down a class, which as I said above kind of sorts itself out sometimes through popular opinion & pressure.
  • + 39
 This! Who's to stop a low-level men's pro to simply "identify" as a female and start dominating in the Women's category. We've already seen it in athletics, wrestling and weight-lifting where women's record are already being shattered by trans athletes. I understand the plight of our transgender friends but there must be clear rules regarding this sensitive issue. I do feel sorry for the women who will miss out on top sports or fail to qualify in these sports.
  • + 2
 @mkotowski1: yes I have sympathy for Kate as well, it’s gotta be confusing knowing where you belong.
@rewob: in track and field they implemented a number for testosterone but the gay male athletes are so far below that number so it’s not so simple. The rules aren’t set in stone yet because they’re realizing it’s not just testosterone
  • + 22
 Joe Rogan talking about trans atheletes. Very educated discussion from him.

youtu.be/OwAGdZKLMCc
  • + 94
 From a mechanics and biological development stand point, you can't undo that period of masculine growth and development. Musculature and skeletal structure inevitably give a male to female trans athlete an unfair advantage over biological females. No amount of diminished testosterone can walk that back.

My wife is bi, and has really opened up my eyes to queer/trans issues in general. The last thing that I want is for trans people to feel isolated and not included. However, there is no way to allow such sentiments lead to a denial of science.

Men and women grow and develop at different rates with different maximum potential. This potential is what will allow trans athletes to dominate women's sports in the future, and it will never be fair for biological women if the number of male to female athletes reaches a significant level.
  • + 79
 @mkotowski1: Sorry to piss on your chips but an elite woman can never compete with an elite man in DH MTB, end of story. It's genetics, it's not possible and we need to stop thinking it is. The whole thing is an absolute joke. If the UCI want trans athletes to compete then they need to create a trans category and guess what, it will be dominated by transgender women who's bodies developed as male. I feel for trans people but allowing males to compete with females isn't the answer.
  • - 17
flag DaveJube (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:40) (Below Threshold)
 @scott-townes: Yes Josh Bryceland has changed sexes and now races as a woman under the name Kate "Ratgirl" Weatherly.
  • - 3
 @jaame: preach sir
  • - 5
flag Nusterloo (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:45) (Below Threshold)
 Wow, by now I want to follow Kate a bit more on how s'he is doing in pro women world cup. And like @fatduke wrote s'he is a great ambassador example/role to maybe get more transgenders into the mountainbike/gravity.

I want to tell it is always awesome to see every kind of person ride or race a bike. No matter what background/story or else he/she has.

But if it is about competing you should separate them without damaging other fractions. I'd like to know how the other women are handling or if they are mad eyeing Kate.

I am a bit dizzy now :S
  • - 36
flag mkotowski1 (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:50) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: If anything downhill is one of the sports where women have a good chance of leveling the playing field as they continue to progress. I have already watched Rachel Atherton put up higher speeds on some courses than almost the entire men’s field. Dh is a gravity fed sport, taking away some of the need for muscle mass to be a astounding rider.

Women have just scratched the surface of what they are capable of in mtb, think about how many more men currently bike. Just look at the whip off in whistler. Don’t you think as more and more women join the sport, more parity between men and women will occur?
  • + 32
 @almacigatrailrider: "Who's to stop a low-level men's pro to simply "identify" as a female and start dominating in the Women's category"

The rules for a start.
  • + 0
 @Robo88: Transgender athletes have absolutely no right to compete in sports ever, period!
They have decided their passion and identity and need to focus their life on that choice.
Every high caliber athlete has had to make considerable sacrifices to be where / who they are in their sport and there should never be an exception just to be politically correct.
  • - 16
flag mkotowski1 (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:52) (Below Threshold)
 @stickman5000: you are so righteous you should be a politician
  • + 28
 Totally agree, it's not fair to the other women.
  • + 10
 @mkotowski1: I don't doubt that if more women were to take interest in the sport the female field would be stronger. However, it's not just muscle mass, men have faster reaction times and are less tentative when throwing themselves down a hill on a bike. Sure, some elite women may be faster then some elite men, but if you take the top 20 riders for example, they couldn't compete.
  • + 7
 @kind0fimportant: Damn, should have added her to my fantasy team.
  • + 5
 @stickman5000: that's not the way it works. Let them start but in their biological field. Until UCI finds a proper solution for this fragile topic.

You know we live in 2019 and people get butthurt. :/
  • + 1
 @scott-townes: lol yup your Late but yes
@Nusterloo Its like letting a little less pumped and prepped Loic Bruni race in pro women's class.....had me LMAOi said that on the 1st article on PB they should separate and make a different class like in Fontana Ca there s a Clydesdale class for the Big Guys as an example they should do the same for the Trans Gravity gender too I see it the same way Not Fair for the other Girls ....
  • - 15
flag mkotowski1 (Jun 1, 2019 at 8:05) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: all I can say is, don’t count the women out yet! Once again the men’s elite comes from a massive pool of riders. Wait till the women’s pool is as big and they progress more.
  • + 1
 @scott-townes:https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/03/a-level-playing-field/
  • + 10
 @mkotowski1: Sarcasm acknowleged, and let me counter by saying, if I would have known the world would one day become a place where we even have to discuss this bullshit, I would have!
  • + 0
 @kind0fimportant: should be like an abstract like they do baseball players in the HOF that broke Rec.while on Roids type deal next to her name since in this case Kate is still physically different you might say to the rest of the Field ( The Ladies )
  • - 3
 Some background info. clarifying the complexity and history of the issue. An informative read.

quillette.com/2019/02/27/confronting-a-new-threat-to-female-athletics
  • + 4
 Great Jo Hogan from fear fatch who smokes the heefers
  • + 20
 @mkotowski1: hmm not sure, Tracey Hannah would have been 114th in the men's field today, that's pretty big margins. Plus, I don't think the women's field will ever be as big as the men's field as there will always be more men interested in the sport than women. Plus, other sports already have a pretty even distribution of men and women and women couldn't compete with the men.
  • + 18
 mokoto -- It's not possible dude, just stop. If you think it is at all realistic that someone like Tracy could cut 40+ seconds off her time and be in line with the men's podium you're delusional. Science.
  • - 9
flag adirint (Jun 1, 2019 at 8:32) (Below Threshold)
 if you want to compete women sport rule number 1. Period certificate ????
  • + 2
 @mkotowski1: She doesn't seem to shy away from the controversy!
  • + 12
 @stickman5000: Clown world.
  • - 12
flag src248 (Jun 1, 2019 at 8:36) (Below Threshold)
 @almacigatrailrider: literally the testosterone rule that is mentioned in the article. A biological man won't be able to race women's unless she's transitioned, which kills the advantage.
  • - 1
 @Robo88: Actually the science is binary. Funny enough animal life wouldn't have evolved if that wasn't the case. Like the UN, the IOC is fully on board with the globalist agenda.
  • - 12
flag src248 (Jun 1, 2019 at 8:38) (Below Threshold)
 @Mntneer: Except trans athletes aren't dominating and transitioning does undo that development...
  • + 4
 @mtbmaniatv: Maybe they should open up an extra spot until they get the whole thing sorted ???
  • + 24
 @src248: no it doesn't. Cellular development and growth cannot simply be undone by testosterone. That's an over simplification of biology. There's a reason why athletes who haven't used steroids in years still have an advantage over those who have never used them. And are you saying that bones are shrinking?

Trans athletes have begun to dominate other sports, and that's with a pool of competitors that isn't statistically significant. If the numbers become significant, then their overall success will also be significant. One pro trans DH athlete reaching this level of success in the female category, with little to no success if the men's division, is definitely dominating hundreds of pro women around the world
  • + 3
 @src248: do women have to fear if it is reversed and they have to do tests too?
Maybe some female athletes get a testosterone treatment so they can compete on a higher level?

Just my thought to this ^
  • + 3
 More and more record breaking by transgender in sport women category @Nusterloo:
  • + 10
 Reference 1:09 www.youtube.com/watch?v=p84_xaLZc-g

No matter the gender identity, seems like racers should be sorted out by their "assigned sex at birth".
  • + 26
 @src248: transitioning does not undo development. In fact, estrogen helps preserve bone density.

Testosterone levels are only one variable in the equation. Hip structure plays a role in how efficient we are on the bike. A male structure generally tends to be more efficient. As said above, reaction times and coordination are different between men and women. I’m NOT saying any of this to be anti-women or pro-men. The women at the top (DH, XC, etc.) would absolutely kick most of the Pinkbike population’s ass.

The science on this topic is just too strong to be skeptical and to think that simply changing ones hormones, especially after puberty, will completely change that person to the other sex. It’s just not true.

Also, I’m DEFINITELY not advocating for pre-puberty hormone treatment. That’s a topic for another day.
  • + 2
 @Robo88: sorry to mention you so late. I read a lot about different sports but can't give you super detailed answers.
Also this topic got out of hand, even as neutral discusser.
The only thing I can say that we have to handle it like a raw egg and let the UCI get a solution to this problem.
After, we can discuss more about it.
  • + 2
 @bikesandbeers: exactly what I was thinking
  • + 6
 @stickman5000: what?? They have no right to compete in sports...what the hell? Everyone has the right to play sports...Just create a new category, if you can have juniors then why not trans.
  • + 10
 @src248: it absolutely does not kill the advantage entirely. where do you people come from?
  • + 7
 @mbikes1: way to intentionally miss the point. what do you think would happen if Gwin spent the next two years transitioning and then came back to race in the women's division?
  • + 29
 No other comment thread has ever made me feel so unnecessary...
  • + 8
 @src248: Stop spreading misinformation for the sake of not hurting people's feelings. You're not helping whatsoever.
  • + 0
 I’ll pour in my devils advocate gasoline: hormonal stuff is pure BS, yes transitioning men have the advantage but I do think we are running like paranoid headless chickens here. Kate Weatherly will not bring the womens DH down, if anyone has done more damage to it it is Rachel Atherton and that is not her fault by any means. Rachel is an extremely dominating force making it all boring. It’s not a critique of hers. It just is this way, tide in - tide out.
  • - 1
 The TG i know (mw) are very female, slim, skinny legs. Its not that TGs train to become superfit males and then decide to change sex. They feel wrong in their bodies. Its hard for them all day. Let them compete - the world, even the female part, will survive nevertheless.
  • - 2
 @WAKIdesigns: i got u m8 Big Grin
  • + 14
 It’s really not fair on all the women that have been grafting solidly to become pro and to do well at races to see their hard work undone like this. I don’t blame the uci they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place with issues like this. The blame lies totally with these trans athletes who actually have the audacity to turn up to compete in the women’s field. They know who they are they know they have physical advantages that women don’t have yet they turn up anyway. They know what they’re doing isn't fair. It’s totally selfish and I don’t think they deserve any sympathy.
  • + 10
 www.google.com/amp/s/beta.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/16/stripped-womens-records-transgender-powerlifter-asks-where-do-we-draw-line/%3foutputType=amp

www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12070144

These are two I know about, there is one more I can't find of another weight lifting transgender woman.

Please don't be upset, just take it as information.
  • + 22
 I don’t know all the details about the science stuff (testostorone, etc), but I would probably stop watching the women’s race if transgenders start winning on a regular basis. For me it feels unfair for the women who try to make it to the top.
  • + 28
 Misgendering and Deadnaming?
f*ck off! Ban me right now ,cuz I'm not playing your PC bullshit game. I dont give a shit who's racing or not,but I do care about arbitrary rules based on our "feelings" culture . Nonsensical bullshit right ,here.
  • + 10
 @scary1: I have no problem calling someone whatever they want to be called treating them however they like but I do have an issue with trans athletes competing in the women’s field especially boxing and mixed martial arts.
  • - 2
 @mkotowski1: Inform me when a female pulls 1000lbs- Im waiting Smile
  • + 1
 Even by Pinkbike standards, the amount of ahistorical reactionary nonsense here really is something to behold.
  • - 6
flag cuban-b (Jun 1, 2019 at 11:32) (Below Threshold)
 @mkotowski1: dunno why ur getting downvoted so much. You’re not being offensive and the things you’re saying aren’t unreasonable.
  • + 1
 @Mntneer: muscle has memory of its peak power so even reduced testosterone dont remove peak power, just as epo the effects last for years after doping.
  • + 2
 On the upside Kate weatherly was a cheap buy for my fantasy league team and freed up money for Danny hart ????‍♂️
  • + 13
 It's like a Daily Mail comments section.
  • + 1
 @almacigatrailrider: I found this article pretty helpful in tackling these sorts of things
www.cjr.org/criticism/caster-semenya.php
  • + 12
 There are only two genders. Men and women are biologically and physically different. People should race what biological gender they were born as, if there isn't a separate class. If they want to push the gender neutral thing so much then just have men and women race in the same class.
  • + 16
 Letting a transgender athlete compete in the women’s field is so set up for failure. If Kate Weatherly or any other transgender athlete does start to dominate there will certainly be an uproar and rightfully so.
  • - 11
flag dirtologist (Jun 1, 2019 at 12:08) (Below Threshold)
 A great collection of dudes voicing their unwanted opinions on behalf of women.
  • + 8
 @dirtologist: Many pro women cyclists in the other cycling disciplines that have voiced out against transgenders racing in their category. Also, women in other sports as well.
  • + 8
 @dirtologist: I bet woman from 6th on back might share a similar sentiment.
  • + 1
 Take a chill pill guys, based on what is written above I am starting to worry that Kate is going to take over the world and we need to build a wall around her.

For paycho-therapeutical reasons, It is worth mentioning that most males have the white knight gene. When they feel a female is in danger, it releases the “virgin in oppression” and consequently “hero” archetype reaction, making them aroused and aggressive because evolution has shaped us this way. The one rescuing the girl is simply having the best chances of getting into her pants and proliferating your genes. If you don’t believe me think of a time where you heard that a girl you fancy is sad because her boyfriend mistreats her. You felt like a hero and you had a fire in your pants. Cinematography is full of these examples. Every womanizer knows that a sad woman is more vulnerable... except DH girls aren’t, you just assume they may be in danger.

So this mechanism is failing you here...

Night night!
  • + 12
 @mkotowski1: Do you not see 118 men in the Elite category above are faster than the top woman Elite qualifier? And that they are about 45 seconds behind the top men’s qualifier? In what fantasy world are you living?
  • + 2
 @cuban-b: I guess it depends how reasonable your unreasonable is?
  • + 1
 @Nusterloo: google mtb fitness podcast. There was a good interview with her a couple of weeks back. Pinkbike won’t let me paste the link
  • + 1
 @renrut: thank you will read it Smile
  • + 1
 @renrut: sorry, will hear it*
  • - 1
 Quite temptative if I would one of the 100 fastest guys on the planet struggling to get full pro...
  • - 2
 I got 25000 reasons kate should be racing and im gonna make it rain pinkbike fantasy dollars tomorrow yeowwww!!!
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: Wow Waki, what an impressive, desperate trolling masterpiece.
  • + 2
 @Nusterloo: ha looks like nz if full of transgender athletes
  • + 5
 @gally-nh: I would fully support Aria Gwin's career in DH.
  • + 8
 @mkotowski1: Or you can just look at the qualifying times. The Elite womans TQ would be in 118th in the Elite mens field or 36th in Junior Mens. It's the same thing nearly every race. By your logic, you could just have 1 class for everyone, and you think a woman could win. Vali Holl is an absolute freak for a junior womans rider. Like nothing we've ever seen. Now where would she qualify in junior mens? Quit trying to virtue signal and just admit what everyone with common sense already knows.
  • + 1
 F**k me, the level of discourse on literally all current affairs these days is utterly risible

[most people] I'M ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS ABOUT (insert some headline they've just read), AND EVEN THOUGH I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT IN THE SLIGHTEST I'M GOING TO GO ON THE INTERNET AND POST HYSTERICAL NONSENSE

*sighs*
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 15:34) (Below Threshold)
 ..and citing Joe f**king Rogan as if he's some kind of authority! LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Utterly clueless.

One last time, for the hard of thinking: Trans athletes have been competing in top level sport for over four decades. It isn't an issue, and it will become more and more prevalent, so wipe the froth from your mouths, get over it and move on with your lives
  • + 8
 The transgender debat is a tricky one. But there is an issue of almost equal importance: The pool of talent in womens DH is just too small. 17 seconds back in elite women = 5th place. 17 seconds back in elit men = 50th place!!!
  • + 10
 @thenotoriousmic: I have 3 friends who's first name is William, yet all of them go by their middle name. I dont call them William if that's not what they want to be called. On the other hand ,If one of them insisted they were a woman and they were born with balls, I'd have a hard time participating in their "reality".
There are way too many times in my life that I've dealt with suicidal depression. My reality is my brain tries to kill me, I dont declare that everyone must give lip service to my f***ed up brain. It's up to me to deal with it, not the world revolving around me.
Give me a tranny that can joke about themselves and acknowledge the oddity without getting all narcissistic and butt hurt and I'll gladly be friends with him/her/them/they/xi/wtf. But I'm not playing silly games to save tender feelings.
  • + 3
 @chriskneeland:

Except the aforementioned woman in 6th, who has had the temerity to ignore the opinion you presumed for her and actually voice her own (see posts below).

Whatever next: women wanting the vote?
  • + 3
 @PauRexs:

I don’t claim to be an expert on this, but it seems a lot of people are hugely underestimating the difficulty of transitioning.

There is a lot more to it than just waking up one day and asking everyone to call you Jemima.
  • + 4
 @scary1: that’s great if you actually care but I don’t. I’m a huge fan of personal freedom. Do what ever you want call yourself whatever you want and unless it’s f*cking someone over. I won’t have a problem with it. However if Tyson fury started identifying as a woman and started smashing women in the ring I’d have a problem with it. This is no different that’s just the worst possible case scenario. Kate weathery is well aware of the situation. She’s not turning up at the races with an opps face and I didn’t know. She knows exactly what the score is. She’s being selfish and disrespectful.
  • + 5
 @Linkpin: She's 6th in qualy. The impacted person is Mikayla Parton who qualified 16th. I believe that puts her out of the main event.
  • + 1
 @Linkpin: yep I’m sure it’s an absolute mind f*ck and a lot of sacrifices have been made. I think the idea of being a female pro athlete should be one of them but that’s just my opinion.
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: it's pretty incredible that someone is using for their argument a racer's opinion that they've just completely made up, when that same racer has posted their ACTUAL opinion IN THIS THREAD. Mental. Just mental.
  • + 6
 @Linkpin: Well then she's a f*cking idiot. So what when there are 20 trans women who wanted to race? And no naturally born women are left in the live feed. Would she be ok with that? Just forfeit your sport to those who had the advantage of growing as a male? Great idea.
  • + 4
 @dughead123: Mate you’re not stupid. You know what the deal is. Cut the crap.
  • - 4
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 16:42) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: well, certainly not compared to you, that's for sure
  • + 4
 @dughead123: whatever mate. Just stop acting dumb. You look ridiculous.
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 17:00) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: yep, it's definitely me that looks ridiculous, here, as opposed to you who looks really rational and well informed.
  • - 1
 The simplest solution, as I've been saying for ten years, is to ditch the sexist gender classes. There should be one class where everyone competed against each other for the combined prize money. Just like in politics, medicine, and everything else. It's called life. Men are better at some things, women are better at others. Segregation of the sexes is by definition, sexist.
  • + 2
 @jaame: After @emi008 's comments, I have to agree. If she likes racing men so much, get rid of all socially constructed categories for competition, especially those based on gender. Of course, that means she'll never be a world cup racer again, but it's only fair.
  • + 6
 @dughead123: whatever you say mate. Doesn’t change the fact that someone with the mental and physical capabilities of a male is unfairly competing in the women’s field. But you already know that. You’re just playing dumb for some unknown reason.
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 17:15) (Below Threshold)
 @thenotoriousmic: a finer example of the Dunning-Kruger effect it'd be difficult to find. Astonishing.
  • + 1
 They're have doe sure been issues with this in other sports. I didn't know that it had hit the mountain biking world yet though. I'm not going to speak to much on it but I do know in MMA it caused quite an upheaval.
  • + 0
 @dughead123: Name someone who previously identified as the opposite sex who won a World level event.
  • - 2
 @Linkpin: What does that have to do with men who have changed their gender competing against women?
  • - 1
 Come on guys, cut it off.
  • - 4
flag jaame (Jun 1, 2019 at 22:01) (Below Threshold)
 Another interesting question is, how does someone who was born and raised as a male know that the feelings they are feeling are the feelings of a female, or vice versa? If you're not a woman, how do you know what it feels like to be a woman? Someone who does not identify as male - how can anyone else know what that person feels and whether or not that is what females feel? And does it even matter?
Is the red I see the same as the red you see? Is the taste I taste when I eat an orange the same as the taste you taste when you eat an orange? It's all subjective isn't it?
I have often wondered what it would be like to have a drive of someone else's body. Much like when your friend gets a new bike and you have a ride. You can instantly tell the difference in handling between your bike and theirs. It must be the same for bodies.
  • + 7
 @MikeAzBS: "Vali Holl is an absolute freak for a junior womans rider. Like nothing we've ever seen."

History upgrade required for you: ACC (Anne-Caroline Chausson) ran a time on the same course and conditions in 1995 that would have won her the elite world champs, except the UCI wouldn't let her race up out of junior.
  • - 4
flag Linkpin (Jun 1, 2019 at 22:32) (Below Threshold)
 @chriskneeland:

No, she is not an idiot - she just doesn’t agree with your slightly panicked view on this issue and has spent some time thinking about her response to it.

If you think hundreds of trans women are poised to take over the Elite Women category then you have a serious misunderstanding of what it is to be trans. It isn’t a case of a man thinking, “I might find life somehow easier as a woman so I’m going to be one.” The process of transitioning can be one of the most physically and psychologically painful experiences of someone’s life, and can last for years. It generally starts in a person’s very early years, too - long before they have grasped the concept of gender categories in elite sport (or even how to ride a bike).
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: Yes is can start very early, especially with clueless encouragement from the parents who don't even grasp the basics of brain development. You do realise its predominantly a mental disorder don't you? I suggest you look at the post transition suicide rates as that might give you a hint as to what is really going on.

And no, women's DH isn't about to be taken over by trans people but other women's sports already have trans World Champions.
  • + 1
 @mkotowski1: LOL this guy.....how people can write nonsense like this is entirely beyond me.

It makes me cringe to even acknowledge you.
  • + 2
 @cuban-b: the f*ck are you talking about? This idiot is claiming women just need time to progress to male competitive levels....need I say more?
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: I think you're entirely missing the point. My position isn't against trans people, it's against someone who had the biological advantages of maturing as a man competing against naturally born women. There's a reason we have two different categories in sport.

You're confusing the could, would, should. Would trans people take over women's sports? Highly unlikely. Could trans people take over women's sports? Absolutely. Should trans people take over women's sports? Absolutely not.
  • - 1
 @chriskneeland: yeah you might scroll down buddy, because she wrote exactly how she felt about it.
  • + 4
 @dirtologist: how she feels about it is totally irrelevant and she doesn’t speak for the whole field. It’s a matter of what’s fair and what isn’t irrespective of anyone’s opinions we have to base our decisions on what we know to be fact and unless someone knows differently men are stronger and faster than women according to science.
  • - 3
 @thenotoriousmic: one thing is sure, Pinkbike needs to take a stand because right now from the outside it looks like a damn transphobic place. Nobody normal will get into this comment board and weigh the value of the arguments. I’d expect them to hire Mrs Baker to write an opinion piece...
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: Nobody's transphobic. They just want to protect women's sports.
  • - 2
 @chriskneeland: I don’t care, I am just saying how it looks from the outside. People who judge come into judging mode with a ready verdict.
  • + 0
 @chriskneeland:

I think it’s possible that lots of people really are approaching the issue from this point of view, and maybe do have good intentions.

I can’t understand, though, what makes the (predominantly male) commenters think that the women in elite sport need protecting. They are seriously strong, both of body and of mind, and are quite capable of protecting their sport by themselves.
  • + 4
 @Linkpin: As a spectator, I have no desire to watch the injustice of someone who had the advantages equivalent to doping their entire life to gain an athletic advantage beating those who have not. If that's the direction women want to take their sport, so be it. I'd assume not too many would be ok with it. They'll be accepting while it's just one. But when there are several? Or when they start to regularly podium, showing the clear distinction of their advantage? Not so much.
  • + 6
 @chriskneeland: exactly

And frankly, all of the SJWs are failing to see the point,..none of us have a problem with trans people. It just is plainly unfair to genetically female competitors
  • - 1
 @nvranka: Danica Patrick. 2008 Indy japan 800
  • + 2
 @nvranka: it’s not about being a social justice warrior. The circumstances aren’t ripe for women to win current world cups vs the boys. That’s mtowskis point
  • - 1
 @jclnv:

Sorry, but your comments on it being a ‘mental disorder’ are outdated.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/28/health/who-transgender-reclassified-not-mental-disorder/index.html

Quite an important distinction.
  • + 1
 @chriskneeland:

But do you not think we should leave that discussion and decision to the women involved with, and affected by, the issue directly?

Or, equally, wrote to the UCI if you feel strongly about it.
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: I haven't read the link, and I don't really have an opinion about the classification bit really, CNN cannot be used as a reliable source!
  • - 2
 @cuban-b: cuck
  • + 1
 @dughead123: He is most certainly an authority on MMA fighting, which is what he is talking about in that clip in relation to transgender women beating the ever living hell out of their female competitors.
  • + 2
 @nvranka: Solid comeback.
  • - 2
 @Linkpin: the hubris of men who know absolutely nothing about these topics that demand everyone listen to their opinions as truth - honestly boggles the mind!!
  • + 4
 @cuban-b: Yes, the people who acknowledge science and reality are the ones displaying hubris not the SJWs willing to suspend reality to make an argument. Or maybe you don't know what the word hubris means. That would make more sense.
  • - 3
 @gally-nh: enlighten me
  • + 3
 @cuban-b: The intentionally obtuse game is so cute. Thanks for proving my point.
  • - 3
 @gally-nh: says the self proclaimed expert on trans issues
  • + 3
 @cuban-b: Oooo intentionally obtuse with a side of logical fallacy. Nice work champ! Tell me -- do you need to be a meteorological expert to understand the science behind why it rains?
  • - 3
 @gally-nh: Slippery slopes and strawmen- it’s obvious you’re describing yourself - just look in the mirror. Nobody in this convo really knows what they’re talking about so I’m confused why people are so triggered. Let the people who are affected by these issues deal with it.
  • + 4
 @cuban-b: It is not a slippery slope to acknowledge that trans women have several physiological advantages over natural females, beyond whatever their testosterone levels have been in the last 12-24 months. That isn't hubris, that isn't a logically fallacious argument.That is reality. That is science.

Choosing to ignore that and making ridiculous arguments that imply only some expert could know that information and then feigning indignation when an alternative example is given to you, is on you. You aren't very good at this. Have a lovely afternoon.
  • + 6
 @Linkpin: The WHO, like the UN, is simply a globalist propaganda machine. They were lobbied into the declassification and it even states that in the article you linked. There is zero science behind the decision.

The correlation of trans people with anxiety, autism and other disorders (not to mention the vastly above average suicide rate) leave little doubt that it is a mental disorder and should be treated as such so that sufferers can get the actual help they need, rather than a load of inclusive rhetoric that encourages the environment for the disorder.
  • - 2
 @jclnv: with all due respect by this time, with even a tiny dosage of self reflection, you should be able to realize that frequent commenting on Pinkbike can be qualified as a mental disorder.

The only way this can be settled is for transgender people to compete. Then the system will be-adjusted based on their results. It just takes timr
  • + 4
 @WAKIdesigns: No, the only way this can be settled is for a trans category. I have no problem with that. Suprisingly you will get zero women transitioning to men in that category.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: errr no. Not in cycling. Just allow them to compete and let’s see what happens. Because we don’t know what wiln hapen
  • - 1
 @gally-nh: I never said they should be allowed to race together. You aren’t very good at reading comprehension. I’m having a fantastic day by the way - wish you could see how much fun I’m having! Seriously we should go riding. I’m in the bay. If you’re nearby let’s chill. Pm me.
  • + 5
 @jclnv: it’s a PC mess and openly objecting is a big media suicide for brands athletes organisations
  • + 1
 @cuban-b: ah not just a cuck, but a Bay Area cuck, not surprising.

And it wasn’t a comeback, just calling em like I see em.

You sure you aren’t a trans too?
  • + 3
 @jaame:

I used a CNN link as I thought it might be more easily opened and read by our friends over the pond.

Is this better? www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804

Do have a look at it.
  • - 1
 @nvranka: I proved u wrong so u called me a cuck. I win. I’m gonna go have a beer Smile . For real tho let’s ride. Bury the hatchet.
  • - 4
flag Linkpin (Jun 2, 2019 at 10:30) (Below Threshold)
 @jclnv:

Could you give us an insight into how you’re an expert on this topic?

Obviously you’re better qualified than the doctors etc. at the WHO, but in what way?
  • + 5
 @jclnv: That podium photo describes the problem way better than words ever could.
  • + 3
 @jclnv: i was speaking of Downhill mountain biking, let’s remain sane here...
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Slippery slope.
  • - 1
 @dughead123: I blame the Internet. Idiots who think they MUST have an opinion on everything while literally not having expert knowledge about anything including their f*cking jobs have always existed but back in the day whey would only piss off their closest family with the annual drunk argument at the Christmas table. Now they can 'speak to the masses' and f*cking hell, the feeling of importance makes them even less tolerable.

You know the type, they KNOW how to raise your child, which way you should vote, what you should eat (and why a healthy diet is 'gay'), which car you should buy, how to manage a football team, how to perform open heart surgery, how to do Police work and which photo should have won PB POTY contest.
  • + 3
 @bananowy: whoever, whenever blames internet for anything is a hypocrite right away. Think again... stop viewing people you don’t agree with or don’t accept as “the other”. Also condescending people for nothing is a bit of a mental masturbation. We are all one big family, we all share same biology. Perhaps accepting it is the hardest part. I stood in a queue to the airplane in Poland and quite a few middle aged, fat men had patriotic Tshirts saying more or less “defenders of the motherland”. I despised them deeply. Then there was a dude with Vegan Warrior Tshirt on Airport in Sweden. And it was hard to bear it this horrible feeling, a form of repulsion. Mind screaming: who the f you think you are, you virtue signalling pricks!” As soon as I imagined myself in their shoes, tried whether I could think like they do, the anxiety went away. I don’t approve it, ht it is clear to me how it came to be. How natural it is...
  • - 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Fair points and I admit I shouldn't complain about anything Internet related while voicing my opinion on it. Not to mention I have a roof over my head because I use it. So yeah, guilty as charged.

But I stand by my opinion about the type of guys I described. There's a difference between disliking people for their views (which I try not to do) and disliking them for looking for an argument even though no one else wants to get involved and the subject doesn't concern them. Or pretending to know something they don't/not listening to people who actually do know.

As an example, since you mentioned Poland, I don't resent PiS voters even though I disagree with them about a lot because I think I understand where they're coming from and why that party keeps (and will keep for a long time) winning. Kind of like your airport nationalists and vegans. It actually makes me die inside when the so-called opposition call them names when they are the ones they should try and warm up to the other side in a bid to win.

But equally I can't help cringing when there's a pretty harmless (and insignificant in the grand scheme of things - it's just stupid riding bikes down a hill ffs) topic like this and literally no one asked for anyone's opinion, we could just watch the race and carry on, but not only are some people very quick to voice theirs, it's almost invariably the people who are:

- not involved
- not affected
- not educated on the topic
- not relevant in any way shape or form.

And for whatever reason they of all people think the sky will fall if they don't chime in with their shit. What kind of mission are they on? What's their point? It's not like the UCI or IOC is gonna read this and go "thank you for your input mr pinkbike user, we wouldn't know what to do without you; we've only been contemplating this for 30 years". Don't they have even the slightest nudge of curiosity to look/learn instead of talking, read up, check what's been said before, see what happens in the future (exactly like you suggested; just wait and see)?

I came to see the results and read the usual comments about the actual race/quali but then I saw this and it made me so pissed with its pointlessness that I had to do the same and join in the shitstorm Wink
  • - 1
 @Linkpin: Could you give us an insight into whether or not you are capable of attempting to make a point without employing logical fallacies?
  • + 0
 @gally-nh: Honest question, not trying to pick a fight: you’re not a pro mtn biker, you’re not a woman, you aren’t trans, so why do you care so much? Are you TRULY arguing for the fairness of the pro women?? Don’t be afraid to be honest - this is an inclusive forum after all.
  • + 1
 @bananowy: are you suggesting the UCI has reasonable decision making ability? Blasphemy!

And referring to our sport as “stupid riding bikes down a hill ffs” is pretty egregious, so please show yourself out and don’t come back.

I don’t even watch womens’ racing and still find it highly irritating how unfair and foundationally baseless the UCI’s approach to trans assimilation is...there is plenty of information out there, this is a fairly cut and dry issue, it isnt fair to biologically female competitors, period. Saying anything to the contrary is ludicrous, and frankly, a bit comedic to those of us that have no vested interest.

To the blood sweat and tears FEMALE competitors....well it’s pretty f*cking clear what most of the champion level athletes think.

Any female competitor that doesn’t take issue with this simply isn’t a relevant competitor for the win. Case closed.
  • + 0
 @nvranka: you are not a woman racing WC, it's none of your business. You are out of your depth... you are like me being angry at Eagle...
  • + 2
 @nvranka: everyone stopped taking you seriously after these gems:

“none of us have a problem with trans people”

followed by

“You sure you aren’t a trans too?”
  • + 0
 @bananowy: obviously a reaction to insecurity and fear. Easier to do this on the internet whilst at home.
  • - 2
 @cuban-b: nah I gave example of nationalists vs vegan activist because they signal virtues explicitly but their underlying motives are quite different. Also we are all driven by insecurities and fears. Our complexes when addressed release enormous amounts of energy. Those who learn to channel that anxiety into good actions get a lot done and become good at it. Nationalists are among other things, afraid of getting singled out and falling prey to violence, possibly victims of domestic violence - they seek group to protect them and once they find it they spend lots of energy and time on proving that they are worthy being accepted and kept as important members. Nothing binds people better than ideology, symbols make it simple to identify friends and enemies wherever you go. Online activists, especially environmentalists and leftists, I think they are very lonely and feel like they don’t fit into society. At some point they break and go: to hell with it. I am an outkast and I am proud of it. But I will find my revenge... I will make sure your steak tastes badly, that you think of carcinogens and animal suffering. Joe Rogan said he learned to fight because he was afraid of getting his ass kicked. Then he also noticed girls like funny guys. If you look at professional Athletes, you will find plenty of Peter Pans. Many carry a load for sure. By observing my wife and her academic environment I see many 40yr old boys and girls who never had balls to pick up a real job.
  • + 1
 @cuban-b: I care because people are willfully spreading misinformation about an important topic that has ramifications in many sports and other areas. Fairness in sport being just a facet of that.

Once again, your appeal to authority nonsense is just that, complete nonsense and an argument devoid of any substance. You seem to care and have an opinion....You're not a pro mt biker or a woman. Starting to understand now or are you going to play dumb some more?

Maybe this will be a simpler analogy for you, easier than the meteorology one -- do I need to be Al Michaels or a former NFL player to know that Tom Brady is a great QB....or to simply have an opinion on the matter?
  • + 10
 Just to add to the debate:

www.thecollegefix.com/transgender-woman-who-competed-as-a-man-last-year-wins-ncaa-track-championship

She finished 8th out of 9th in the men's race two years ago. Now she's the national champion among the women. Ok with you?
  • + 7
 @chriskneeland: They still won't get it. They're so indoctrinated in the clown world view of the world they would rather be unfair than offend. Utter goons.
  • + 0
 @jclnv: even though a lot of the comments irk the shit out of me, 50% of you give me faith....
  • + 0
 @gally-nh:

Yes. Here are my points very simply (the word “you” is used generally, not at anyone specific):

1. Identifying as female or as male (or anything else) is up to the individual to decide, not to anyone else. If you decide you are better qualified than that individual to decide their identity, you are imposing upon them. This applies well beyond the label of ‘trans’.

2. If an issue affects you directly, by all means kick off about it in the loudest possible way. If it does not, it is best left to the people it does affect unless you somehow consider them incapable of fighting their corner or expressing their opinion. More importantly, do not claim to represent their opinions without consulting them first, and certainly don’t disregard them as ‘stupid’ unless you want to undermine your whole position.

3. If a governing body or authority has made a decision you fundamentally disagree with, write to them to explain why. That will have more impact that shouting into the black hole that is the internet and will demonstrate that you actually want the change you say you do.

4. If you want to override the opinion of people who are qualified, you should be at least equally well qualified. If I broke my wrist in the street, I would trust the opinion of a doctor on the best treatment over that of a traffic warden. If the traffic warden pushed through the throng of people surrounding me and shouted down the doctor, they would not be helping the situation.

5. If a group of people tell you that saying a particular thing will upset or offend them and not saying it won’t negatively affect your life, just don’t say it. It is not compulsory to exercise your right to free speech at the expense of the happiness or safety of others, and it is worth remembering the position of privilege the majority of people commenting on this issue speak from.

I hope that’s clear enough. I understand that this is all just my opinion but the overwhelming response to this subject has really saddened me and made me feel less a part of the MTB community as a whole. This issue isn’t going away any time soon, I accept that, but if we can all express ourselves respectfully and with love for others it will be far less unpleasant.
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: we all need to masturbate and smoke weed...
  • - 1
 @gally-nh: Cool, since it’s all about fairness, all the women out there should thank you guys for arguing on their behalf - you’re making it more fair for them. Who knew you were supportive of the feminist movement.
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: You lost me when you fail to see the difference sex and gender. Sex is actually assigned to you, regardless of identification which gender you identify as.
  • + 4
 @Linkpin: I don't know if you've ever spent any time flicking between BBC World and CNN, but I have. It's almost like they're reading from the same script. BBC has a heavy left wing bias too. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a proper English news organisation these days. They have all become too polarised.
  • + 1
 @Linkpin: Your point no.1. is interesting. On the one side I agree. If you want to be something, I have no problem with you being it.
But I do find it difficult to comprehend how a person who was born and raised as one gender decides it is now the other. Now maybe that is how it happens, and maybe that person is right, and they are feeling like that other gender. But how does anyone but a woman know what it is to be a woman? If I'm a man, but I don't think what I feel like inside is male, that feeling is specific to me and totally unverifiable. There is no way for me to be tested and for anyone else to know that feeling that I have is indeed the feeling of a female. It could be anything.
Does any of that matter? I think it kind of does. If societal norms are going to be changed for the majority on the emotions of a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, minority, I think the change should be done on the back of verifiable science, not the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population. KInd of like, hard luck. Someone who does not agree with the nomenclature already in place should be the one to accept the fact. I don't agree with pandering to minorities at all.
  • + 1
 @Linkpin: point 1 is utter horseshit. Nobody gives much damn whether you think you identify as smart, pretty or strong, we decide between ourselves what you are based on what we see and hear. Thus nobody will care what you think about your sexuality. Your declaration of freedom is ignoring society as reference point, society creates big part of your mentality. Some people have tough luck and some are lucky and then there’s everything in between. They just have. Life is unfair. Deal with it.
  • + 2
 @chriskneeland: Huh?

The only thing I’ve said on that in these comments is, “You know there is a difference between sex and gender, don’t you?“

Which is the same as what you’re saying, isn’t it?
  • + 2
 @jaame: Interesting. But what if the version of ‘male’ you feel is different to the ‘male’ I feel? Who is the one who is actually following the status quo? As you say, it is unverifiable, so does that mean the terms are meaningless?

I think it’s fair to say that we broadly know what it means in society to be ‘a man’ or a ‘a woman’, and while there can be nice things about that those assumptions can be damaging too - look at the suicide rate in 18-40 year-old men, for instance, which is still the most common single way to die for that age group. I would suggest some of that is to do with feeling pressure to live up to being ‘masculine’ - not talking about your feelings, keeping it all under control whatever’s going on and providing stability and power to others even when you feel helpless.

For some people, this feeling goes further. They don’t feel right at all even being identified as male, to the extent that they might self-mutilate, suffer in their mental health or even commit suicide. Given that, and the fact that gender dysphoria and associated conditions have a huge body of evidence behind them, I think we need to see beyond this idea of ‘pandering to minorities’ and let people do what is right for them, especially as it has little to no impact on us as opposed to huge impact on them.
  • - 1
 @Linkpin: suicide rate... tough luck man. Nothing more but a tough luck at genetic and environmental lottery. Like being born as a child of vegans or antivaccers or in Africa. Good luck fixing the world and saving people from themselves, over-intellectualizing simple things. With your logic you could try to rationalize flat Earthers. In fact this is what you are effectively doing by rationalizing transgender people. Yea as a teenager I remember wanting to f*ck brother of my friend. I even wanked once thinking about it. I felt genuine sexual attraction to him. Even today I sometimes can’t stop staring at a picture of some dude. I am fully aware of gender not being black and white. But getting into “what really makes you a man or a woman” is an utterly pointless mental masturbation and points at nothing more than recreational empathy.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: wait...the earth isn’t flat?! I’m not an astronomer, not a physicist, not a scientist, not an astrophysicist, and not an astrobiologist, therefore I decree that the earth is flat cuz of data I cherry picked. The UCI, Pinkbike audience, and NASA all must bow down to my non-expert knowledge because I said so. Any argument to this will be met with name-calling.
  • + 1
 @cuban-b: you have to respect opinions. But let me correct you a bit here. Earth is not entirely flat. There are mountains on it as well as seas have depth. Let's not be flat-tards here. I don't know why but I thought of Keira Knightleys chest...
  • + 4
 @cuban-b: BTW I saw Kate's run from Fort Bill... she isn't really near stealing top Girls bread any soon... with all due respect...
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: What does the vaccination debate, veganism, the flat earth psyop, climate change or any of these other canards have to do with the discussion at hand? You seem to throw these things out there on the regular - particularly slamming legit debates like vaccines and veganism (the debate is over) and conflating them with shit like flat earth. This is the mark of a trained sophist. That and the fact that you seem to spend hours every day trolling here leads me to believe you are a sad sack of shit - or perhaps a paid "change agent".
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Some quality trolling right here...
  • + 1
 @ashlemon: hahahah. Paranoia continues
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Oh yeah - forgot ad hominems
  • + 1
 @ashlemon: phallusy
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: is it a logical phallusy though?
  • + 1
 @bananowy: one can phallate a lot on the internet by talking about fallacies which is a fallacy in itself
  • + 1
 @kind0fimportant: Only 5th? Wow, that dude sucks.
  • + 2
 @mkotowski1: don't hold your breath. There's a reason all these men are trying to compete at a lower level and no women try doing the opposite.
  • + 76
 To all of you guys being disrespectful about a topic, rider’s situation and history you know NOTHING about, you guys are despicable. I’ve got 6th today, lost 4s on the last split on kate... well I’ve should have trained and ridden better!!! I would never dare to call it unfair. Kate’s been competing in our field last year already, got 2 top15 spots but nobody would give a shit. Now because she made a huge effort in training and preparation, investing time, money and energy, she got faster... not surprising!! and now some random dudes would not shut up about this. Wow. I am and will always be proud to be part of such a welcoming scene!!! You are not part of it, shame on you.
  • + 3
 These types of things are really easy to say when you have a very privileged life such as yours you have to remember others aren't so lucky. There are young women who haven't made it to the top yet working there butts off fighting an uphill battle if you allow trans athletes to compete, just look at junior athletics in North America.
If you really don't care and think there is no advantage why not compete in Men's field? Don't think you would be too happy then, there is much factory rides for competitors coming amongst last every race.

Look at it this way, you a professional rider on a factory team, who has just been beaten by an ameature, it's actually pretty embarrassing. In any other more cutthroat sport you would not be a professional any longer.

Don't take these comments the wrong way, there just facts
  • + 4
 Surprising how this isn't the top comment, because it sure should be! Thanks for taking the time to post, Emelie. I admit there are tricky nuances to these kinds of gender issues, and obviously people have their own personal concerns which they have a right to discuss....but I am surprised at all the comments spouting off like THEY have it all figured out and THEY should be the ones running things. I, for one, am glad they are not.

Life tip: When you think you've got it all figured out and you know exactly how it all should be....think again. You probably need to open your eyes a little wider.
  • - 8
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 11:20) (Below Threshold)
 @rory: yep, the majority of comments are borne out of complete ignorance. And that's being kind
  • + 17
 @dughead123: put the issues aside and look at the power data, and how muscle develops and peak power memory which ignores testosterone it’s not discrimination just pure numbers.
We should have transgender racing to help resolve any issues, seems more common sense then a band aid fix.
  • - 21
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 11:53) (Below Threshold)
 @enduroFactory: people have looked at the data. People a lot smarter than you. They disagree. As for your suggestion, think about what that would look like for this weekend's racing.
  • + 5
 Just want to say thank you for sharing your perspective Emilie, and also for showing your support. It's great to hear from someone actually competing in this space, this is how minds are changed. Good luck tomorrow!!!
  • + 4
 @dughead123: from what I understand it’s testosterone levels nothing more? or have I missed other data they take into consideration, any information you can pass on would be interesting
  • + 14
 I’ve said it by the previous occasion that other girls are fine with Kate racing... and if that is the case, there is nothing to talk about. Paranoics may say that emi008 was forced to write that, girls were drawimg straws, she lost and had to take one for the team...

@emi008 - you have to cut us some slack, this is nothing compared to wheelsize shaming from last year... if 29” wheels had feelings they would all be on heavy antidepressants.

And yeah, go Kate!
  • - 6
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 12:05) (Below Threshold)
 @enduroFactory: so you don't actually know what the criteria is, let alone who decided it and why. Sadly, I'd wager that applies to the vast majority of people commenting here.
  • + 32
 @emi008: ignoring a debate/issue and telling people they don't understand any of it is rarely the good way to deal with it, particularly if you think your point of view makes the most sense, or when you're at a place where you understand the issue better than most.
It's always better to acknowledge the problem, and explain how your point of view makes sense.
Debates about global warming, vaccination, "flat" earth have shown that ignoring stupid/uneducated/religious arguments just lead to progression of the most stupid/ignorant arguments.

While it's not making any sense to create a category for a single trans racer, and it makes sense to let them race in the women cat to respect their orientation,
pretending that XY - testosterone = XX is not helpful for transgenders, nor for women who want fair competition, and I'm not even talking about how disrespectful it is for the biologists and doctors that have been studying development and hormones for ages...
  • + 14
 @WAKIdesigns: Yeah, but if 20 of the men's field decided tomorrow they identified as female and wanted to compete in the female category, how many of the female riders do you think would be so accepting then? The people commenting saying it shouldn't be allowed are saying it in support of the women, not as discrimination against trans athletes.
  • + 4
 @dughead123: caught up with ioc paper not ruling, just testosterone level for over 12months moving to 2 years on review at later date maybe but undecided.

Still think transgender should have there own racing cat, makes it all clear and reduces friction. No doubt that will happen in time.
  • + 2
 @dughead123: completely false. you guys sound like american conservatives denying climate science.
  • + 3
 @Davec85: except they don’t do this. Ot is not the case yet and may never be. Thus Keep the sword and armor in the chest until Kate hangs a gold medal on her amputated penis she keeps on the wall in erected position in her living room. And it may be bigger and may have been more vigorous than yours and mine. Be ready my friend though, be prepared!
  • + 10
 @Jjfaze:
the fact that you re attacking me on a personal level here, eventhough it has NEVER been about me or you in the discussion, says it all... what about the young girls or boys out there who might see Kate as a role model for being just who she is, despite everyone being so untolerant and mean, and continue to push on doing what she loves most: riding a bike. ? What about Them?

I mean... for me it goes way beyond racing, (small) money, Obviously it is just my opinion. Some girls in the field might think it’s not right! I would never say to them they are morons unless they show no respect for someone’s private life.

To finish: not embarrassing at all to be beaten by an ‘amateur’ as almost the entire woman’s field can be considering as such (except 3 maybe), me included (working part time next to racing).
  • - 9
flag gally-nh (Jun 1, 2019 at 12:53) (Below Threshold)
 @emi008: step away from the keyboard. don't you have a pretty important race to think about?
  • - 4
flag emi008 (Jun 1, 2019 at 13:00) (Below Threshold)
 @zede:

We, me included, have no clue what transgender athlete go through, year after year, as athletes or just persons.
So i dont want to hear people’s ignorant thoughts about transgender athletes on the result of a world cup race, no thanks. It’s like heterosexuel people having the feeling they have a right to say anything about homosexual rights ???? or man about abortion rights... do you want me to continue??
I m actually not here arguing about gender, i’m just shocked how people are focussing on that instead of everything else!! With lack of respect, man the internet is just so ugly.
Don’t tell me you compare my words about all these homophobic dorks to flat earther, that would be just insane lol.
  • - 4
flag WAKIdesigns (Jun 1, 2019 at 13:07) (Below Threshold)
 @emi008:

You did a great thing by standing in her defense and showing your support. It shows that concerns are unfounded. After all it is the girls who have the say (Jesus it sounds like abortion discussion, what the world has come to)

But by commenting further you are just serving yourself on a plate to an army of blood thirsty trolls in berserk mode. It just gets them even more excited. We are not interested in rationale, we are interested in talking about something in an angry manner.

The worst of all... Waki

Cheers!
  • + 32
 @emi008: I dont think people here are hating on Kate like you say. Most of us want more women to be sponsered equal to men so you dont have to work a part time job like yourself even though you are a top racer in the womens field. I believe most are concerned about how this may play out in the future. What if the top five, top ten racers in the womens field were all trans, would you still be so accepting? I think Kate is a role model and I do wish her luck. But the evidence from other sports shows us that it can be unfair to other women and most of us just want true equality for men and women. This is a difficult topic that requries reasonable discussion. I wish you luck tomorrow, and I do feel sorry for Kate that she has to be the "poster child" of this debate. It is a difficult topic so please dont take it personal.
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns:
Actually, the abortion part already came up if you read one comment up. Apparently men are not allowed to have an opinion about that either. It’s only about life and death after all...
  • + 7
 I hope Kate wins out the rest of the season and takes all of the women’s purse. Men stay winning!!!!
  • - 11
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 14:50) (Below Threshold)
 @gally-nh: the irony here is that it's you who's denying the science.
  • - 15
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 14:53) (Below Threshold)
 @enduroFactory: no it won't, because that'd be a very silly and unnecessary thing to do. Trans people have been competing in top level sport for over four decades now. It isn't an issue, unless you're an ignorant reactionary
  • - 12
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 15:05) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: which is a completely ahistorical and ignorant argument. What you've described doesn't happen. Ever. And even if it did, the research that has been done says that if those 20 men went through the changes needed to meet the necessary requirements to compete in the women's field they wouldn't have an unfair advantage.
  • + 7
 @dughead123: midpack open Men (not elite) to womens Worldcup top5,
c`mon man
  • + 5
 @dughead123: sorry but that just isn't true. Where is this research?
  • - 2
 Gotta agree with the original post here. The fuckheads are only coming out of the woodwork because she got a 5th place. She's been racing in NZ for a couple of seasons in the women's category and interestingly, the only people who seem to have an issue with it are dudes on the Internet who so clearly care oh so much. If it's not your business and you know nothing about it, keep out.
  • - 3
 @Snuzz: that doesn't prove what you think it does.
  • - 3
 @Davec85: which bit isn't true?
  • + 2
 @emi008:

I am a man. I can’t fully understand the way a woman feels about an issue specific to women. I certainly can’t understand the way a trans woman feels about an issue specific to trans women.

The best plan for me is to support those people as much as I can, listen to them, try to understand how they feel and not weigh in on their arguments.

Thank you for bringing your voice to this discussion when it was needed. The people most affected by this issue are elite women - your voices should count for more than any anonymous internet commentators.

Best of luck to both you and Kate in the race.
  • + 2
 @dughead123: that any of the male field could go through the changes to meet the necessary requirements and have no unfair advantage. Also that trans athletes have been competing for decades. Where exactly?
  • + 4
 @Davec85: your made up scenario is not how it works. why even start there? address the actual situation not impossible hypotheticals
  • + 3
 @dughead123: "the research that has been done says that if those 20 men went through the changes needed to meet the necessary requirements to compete in the women's field they wouldn't have an unfair advantage"

show me the research then
  • - 3
 @Davec85: so because you're not aware that trans athletes have been competing in top level sport for so long, that means they categorically haven't? Great argument, Dave. Really, really great. It's basically "you're wrong, because I'm ignorant of the facts". Unbelievable.
  • + 0
 @CarlMega: where does it start then? If you develop as a male through adolescence then you have an advantage, end of. If you are talking about pumping a pre adolescent with hormones because they believe they are the opposite sex then that's a different scenario altogether.
  • - 5
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 16:19) (Below Threshold)
 @Snuzz: just because you're not aware of it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As most of you are proving, you're completely ignorant of the history of this issue.
  • - 2
 @CarlMega: mad, isn't it? It's the argument of a child.
  • + 6
 @dughead123: I'm open for you to change my mind if you point me to your research and statistics.
  • + 7
 @dughead123: show me the research you`r talking about then
  • + 3
 Nah she’s being disrespectful but turning up and racing in the female category knowing she’s got physical attributes and reaction times that rest of the field don’t have anyway I’ve just decided I’m now a female and I quite fancy a bit of mixed marshal arts. Wish me luck.

Yours sincerely Connor Mcgreggor.
  • - 7
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 16:36) (Below Threshold)
 @Davec85: yeah, it's not my research. But never mind, you crack on, you're obviously really well informed and haven't just jumped to a conclusion based on f**k all
  • + 7
 @dughead123: just give us 1 link to the research if they exist, no need to be butthurt
  • + 0
 @Davec85: here's my read. Not trans, not a sport scientist, not a female competitor, not a uci regulator. Given that, maybe just sit this one out - eh?
  • - 8
flag dughead123 (Jun 1, 2019 at 17:07) (Below Threshold)
 @CarlMega: no mate, they know best, with all their experience in... erm, in... THEY JUST KNOW, ALRIGHT!
  • + 2
 @CarlMega: appeal to authority not an argument
  • + 2
 @TightAF: debating from a point of ignorance on a complicated topic is also not an argument. My point: this is a nuanced topic, not easy for anyone -> sort through the trans perspective to retain dignity and inclusion AND sort through sportmans (ha!) ship and fairness for all athletes. Right now - the people who are trying to tackle this in sports have set boundaries and criteria. I expect them to be refined; but I concede that I am not that person nor am I female competitor with skin in this game. The women's field doesn't need me to champion anything for them - if they want support, they'll ask. But - you know what? everyone one of these posters with their strawman "what if the top 20 men just chose to self-identify female" is completely disingenuous and comes across as scared people with a lot of overt prejudice. It is not a good look.
  • + 5
 well done for your qualifying result but you are not understanding the debate. Not a great ambassador for your sport . Amateur women who just manage between grabbing some points through local races and training between full time jobs etc won't qualify for races or hardly because transgender athletes are clearly stronger . Not everyone has sponsorship and had time to progress . Take a breathe and understand that it's not personal. You don't get it cause it hardly affects you ...yet . And yes it's not about money. It's about the opportunity every female should have to join the sport she loves and not being pushed into a corner by a stronger sex . Peace @emi008:
  • + 1
 Now you’ve reduced yourself to their level
  • - 3
 Yep she was average and is now mixing it because she has put the effort into it not because she used to be a boy.
  • + 0
 100% @Jjfaze:
  • + 10
 Anyone is allowed to have an opinion about anything. Calling people dispicable because they hold a different opinion from you is not inclusive, tolerant or respectful.
  • - 2
 @jaame: ok, let’s bring up Adolf Hitler and all the things he did to prevent Israel to become what it is today. A genuine Genocidal force. Let’s hug it out because some folks can’t wait to trash comment a nazi and they are coming!
  • - 1
 @Bikez1:

Just to check: are you explaining to the genetic woman who just got beaten by a trans athlete why your opinion counts for more on genetic women getting beaten by trans athletes?
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: maybe that’s the root course to all this chaos, men are just fearful trans women are about to turn up and smash Bruni for fun racing...
  • + 1
 @CarlMega: You know nothing about me so don't make assumptions. I'm allowed to have my views on the topic based on knowledge that I have acquired on the physiological differences between men and women. If you have evidence to the contrary, that's fine, you are entitled to have your own view based on knowledge you have acquired. People are allowed to disagree you know.
  • - 4
flag blahblahbikes (Jun 2, 2019 at 0:45) (Below Threshold)
 Thank you for speaking out against all this transphobia. Good luck for finals.
  • + 5
 Lmao, enjoy losing to trans then, Emi. Will be comical to watch you continue to Come up short and be delusional about why. Bring on the down votes boys
  • + 2
 @nvranka: negprops? I guess you punished ourselves enough... we all did
  • + 0
 Aye mate .. my message is for anyone who doesn't want to accept discriminations against females in any kind of sport . Emilie is not understanding that no one has something personal against Kate . I actually feel sorry for Kate. She should have her own category just like all the others and we wouldn't talk about it . We would be like : wow well done .

I remember Emilie from the past - racing in Switzerland etc . Wonder how she would have reacted if her career would have been influenced by a trans athlete. I don't know mate .the #metoo generation is giving females a stronger voice and we disrespect them by placing a different sex into their category?!

..@Linkpin:
  • - 2
 Brainwashed.
  • + 5
 This comment is on top just because PB can add “likes” and needs to be PC. Until yesterday this comment just had few likes.
Having transgender in women sport is just another desperate attenpt by the industry to get women to ride a bike.
Guess what? It is backfiring. There is alteady a similar case in road racing - always from down under.


What about the 6’2, 220pound person competing for the women hand volley new zeland(?) team? Is that fair? Just google that.
Is it going to be fair when rachel etc etc can only compete for second place? You can train as much as you like, it is not going to be enough.
  • + 0
 @emi008: honestly you’re just embarrassing yourself. Just because free speech is a thing doesn’t mean you need burden us all with nonsensical ramblings and lash out against logic and reason when they don’t support your pathetic excuse of an argument.

Cringe.
  • + 1
 @nvranka: remember she's Swiss, you know the country that said it was inhumane to boil lobsters alive...they have a lot of extra time on their hands I think ;-)
  • + 50
 If there are no differences between people then why seperate into male and female in the the first place? Is it the "patriarchy"? No one cares about the specific person racing as a trans. Pretty much no one is going to personally attack them or use "hate speech"; that's a slim few. This is purely about undeniable, biological, factual, scientific, categorical difference between males and females; strength, weight, muscle mass, reflexes, endurance, skeletal structure, hand size, foot size, height, etc. The fact we have to pussyfoot around this issue, worry about being targeted for being "hateful", merely for trying to ensure fairness for ALL, especially the female athletes, is unbelievable. Anyone want to place bets on whether the FtoM trans generally perform better the the MtoF trans? I'm going to bet Louise Bruni would win her first race by at least 45 seconds. #yaaaaasqeeeen
  • + 9
 Louise Bruni????????
  • + 13
 Yeah, I agree. If there is "supposedly" no differences between men and women and there is such a big push for everything to be gender neutral, then have men and women race in the same class. Then it will be who wins will be the fastest "human" racer.
  • + 5
 #Scienceaintdead
  • + 3
 Louise Bruni and Thelma Estaque !
  • + 3
 @tacklingdummy: exactly! It's a total double standard. We work just as hard as the men and we want equal prize money but we don't want to race against the men because they are better than us and we know that we would never win anything if there was only one class. Where is the category for balding, asthmatic, short sighted men between 39 and 40, under 80kg, with average motor skills and depth perception? In the name of inclusivity, I also deserve a category that will enable me to compete on a level playing field with my peers. I deserve a shot a being pro, goddammit!
  • + 4
 @jaame:

So do you genuinely think that dividing sport into male and female categories is an abitrary thing to do?

Or do you realise that half of the people on earth are women?

Do you also think that the Paralympics is a total joke and that people with fewer limbs or genetic conditions should just toughen up and work harder at beating Bolt?
  • + 5
 @Linkpin: Do you think that qualifications based on intelligence or aptitude are arbitrary? Should we allow anyone to have any qualification, even if they have displayed absolutely no aptitude for said qualification, because 50% of the people in the world are in the same boat?

You want to study medicine but your IQ is 99... yeah mate, that's OK. We can't discriminate based on exam results. Half the people in the world have an IQ under 99. Let's make another category for 99 and unders.

You want to be a professional basketball player, but you're under 5'7"? You do realise half the people in the world are under 5'7" don't you? I guess we could start a category for professional basketball players under 5'7", in order to give short people a fair crack of the whip.

I am against all forms of discrimination, including gender discrimination. I believe anyone who wants to try anything should be allowed to have a go. But I also believe we should be more realistic about the skills they bring to the table and about their value as a result of said skills. If girls want to play sport I'm all for it. If a man wants to have long hair and a dress I'm all for it, too. I'm not all for giving money to people to pursue their dream when they're not really that good at it. Everything should be based on merit. We have a bizarre situation in some sports right now where women are getting a great deal. Making the same as men at something they are not as good at, because they are women! That is the fact of the matter. Flip it the other way and start giving men the same money as woman for something they are not as good at and there would be a public outcry!

It's sexist and it's not right. Discrimination is bad. So why are we even allowing it, let alone promoting it, in sport?
  • - 2
 @jaame: I follow your train of thinking but there is something else which really ought to be taken into account, in my view. We are in a period of change, where we are getting to grips with how to be truly fair and balanced in the area of gender, among other things. However it wasn't always this way, there remains a structural imbalance in our culture which will take some time to reset and - for example - as a white male I recognise the implicit privilege I have enjoyed. If we were starting clean, with a new sport, just invented, I don't think we would be arguing about categories and prize money - people tend to have an inherent sense of fair play and would probably try to split things equally. We're not and I believe, not just for fairness but also to make our sport better, we should make some effort to redress the balance and this means making more effort to encourage women - make it appealing and break down the barriers which have been in place for so long.

That's how I see it anyway.
  • - 2
 @jaame:

Your first point is not the same as this situation. Society needs good doctors and there is, rightly, a minimum threshold for this. That is not the same as sport, which is a leisure activity the participation in which doesn’t impact others either negatively or positively.

As for separate categories being sexist, is you are really trying to stand up for equality for women, have you actually asked any of them for their opinion. Otherwise, I’m afraid, you are mansplaining.
  • + 0
 @Linkpin: I don't really care about mountain biking, because not many people are making any money and I feel the industry is supporting the right proportions of men and women based on value.

Honestly, my beef is with tennis and football.

There has been a big push to get the same salary and prize money for men and women, which is sexist given that the women aren't as good as the men. They are literally asking for the same money, even though there is the understanding that they aren't as good - evidenced by the fact that we have gender classes.

I'm all for fairness, and in my view what's fair is getting paid based on merit, not merit as a lesser category which is inferior to gender in terms of importance.

In tennis, I think there should be an app whereby you can notify the organisers which player you most want to see when you buy a ticket. TV money could be distributed to the players with the highest ratings - kind of like the UFC PPV system. That's fair. I am fundamentally opposed to the idea that for example, the England women's football team should be paid the same as the men's team because they are ostensibly paid by the same company to do the same job. They are not doing the same job in the same arena to the same standard. Therefore they do not deserve the same money. Can anyone in this thread name even one of the players in the England women's football team? I doubt it.
  • + 36
 Solid safe quali for Minnaar in 9th, bet you he can now relax and push for win number 8 tomorrow. Gee said it takes bravery to win here, some say take your brain out, Minnar results say it all. This is the track that bit him and put him out for almost a year. Time to go Mmmmiiiinnnnnaaaarrrrr!!!!!!
  • + 35
 There are physiological differences in strength between and a man and a woman, far more than just testosterone levels. Freaking ridiculous, UCI.
  • + 5
 this spot-on..... lets say as in this person's case they started on hormone (testosterone) reduction at the age of 17...wow... my eldest son started puberty from 12-13 and isnt 17 for another couple of months and he is a 6'4" beast that is stronger and even more athletic than I was at a similar age... I can only imagine if he went on reducers and picked a sport he would dominate as a heshe' , and I could retire and ride dentist bikes for the rest of my life as a man while I keep making money machines with my wife....
so yea, the only way to level the playing field is to have an open class where females that want to experience some of the juice,,, can juice for 3-4 years , bulk up where they need it and then cut their levels back and all have a crack in the one class... 'boostedbits'
  • - 8
flag mitochris (Jun 1, 2019 at 9:36) (Below Threshold)
 @dmanvan23: have you ask him? I mean, what’s the problem of giving a 17 year old heterosexual male hormone treatment for the next 10 years so he/she can compete in mountain biking. I see no issue with that.
  • + 2
 @dmanvan23: some other comments different site saying mid table male DH racer in dec’17 so full testosterone as male till then? No idea I think I’m banned now
  • + 14
 A male baby develops 30% more neurons in the visual cortex in utero. Men can track moving objects, judge speed, fine detail AND process it all faster than women. That's an incredible advantage in motor racing, trap shooting... and DH racing. This advantage is never taken away by hormones.
  • + 3
 @iamamodel: spot on, hormones in reality assist with the outside appearances as we cant see their other regulatory effects. The body is already set in-utero and some of the effects you mention are due somewhat to the levels of fetal/testosterone. So effectively we have to ask ourselves are we happy to allow a human object with 17 plus years of juicing to change sides to get a better result... in some sports juicing athletes can be banned for life as they know that it has given them an advantage that can't be undone....
  • + 18
 Happy to see Emilie Siegenthaler seems to be fully recovered and back to race pace. Allez Emilie!
  • + 32
 Thanks man. Appreciate! Not fully recovered tho, will be 2-3 weeks until i do pull ups again !!!????
I would love everyone to stop being so disrespectful to my fellow competitor Kate in these comments. Makes me just sad!!!
  • - 7
flag Nusterloo (Jun 1, 2019 at 10:17) (Below Threshold)
 @emi008: what have I done... Please give her a hug and positive vibes from me!!!
  • + 2
 If you want to hear an interesting open discussion with trans as well as former trans, check out the Boyce of Reason podcast. It's more nuanced than the standard POV. By the way, great racing!
  • - 1
 @fudgedredd: on my list ^
  • - 2
 If only she had the body of a man to compete in the changing women's field.
  • + 7
 @emi008: Some users have politely stated biological facts and you (and others) say that is disrespectful. If your position in life is that observed science is 'disrespectful' and 'offensive' and 'not understanding' then how can we have a common conversation about anything?
  • + 0
 @hamncheez:

“Some users have politely stated biological facts” - that is true, but plenty of others are using those facts to justify having strong and/or intolerant opinions about someone whose life they know nothing about and, more generally, a situation that doesn’t affect them (and to shout down the opinion of someone who is does affect).

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and a “common conversation” is a right for us all. But that isn’t the same as proscribing what should happen to other people regardless of their opinion on the subject.
  • - 7
flag blahblahbikes (Jun 2, 2019 at 1:12) (Below Threshold)
 @hamncheez: they politely stated nowt, they ignorantly regurgitated biological faux science as fact when all actual scientists that research this stuff know it is anything but (try reading a peer reviewed journal and racking up some citations before you pretend you know the "facts", like I literally have) and they did it on a platter of their cis male privilege that makes them, and you, feel entitled to weigh in on debates you know sweet FA about, but think you're an expert on because of your aforementioned privilege.

The key here is that men need to accept there are some "common conversations" you should not be having, and cis people chatting on about trans issues is one of them, same as men chatting on about abortion, white people chatting on about racism, cats chatting on about the best leads for dogs - it's got nowt to do with you, you know nowt about it, so keep your nose out. Toxic masculinity has got to learn to shut the F up and LISTEN to these people for a change, and for once just not comment on an issue you don't know anything about and doesn't concern you. @emi008 herself has spoken out in support here, so there is no need to save these women, they've got no problem with it so there is no issue, yet the commenters keep commenting. Why?! Because these opinions are not coming from a place of concern for the scientific "facts" which don't exist, or concern for the women in the sport who have no problem, despite all the pretence that they do, they are coming from a place of transphobia. That's all it is, plain and simple. If you've got a problem with this, you are transphobic. I ain't gonna argue with you, I got better stuff to do, but if you've got an issue you are transphobic. Try directing your excellent powers of scientific deduction and debating prowess towards yourself to analyse just why that is and sort you yourself out before you start attacking others.

Btw this is aimed at you, but not just you, this is aimed at every single person on PB to whom my comments apply to. You are all transphobic, sort yourself out.

Big up to you @emi008 for speaking out, you rock.
  • + 7
 @blahblahbikes: I stopped reading at "white people chatting on about racism"
  • + 3
 @blahblahbikes: You're engaging in what's called "intersectionality" or "critical theory" which essentially states that you're not even allowed to have an opinion about something that is outside your racial/sexual/gender/age boundary.
  • + 0
 @blahblahbikes: The entire foundation of intersectionality, critical race theory, gender theory, etc are from "studies" that are not scientific, not truly peer reviewed, and not replaceable. Google "New Sokal studies" or "Grievance Studies". Its all a fraud.

Take, for instance, the first "White Privilege" study by Peggy McIntosh from 1989. It reads like a journal entry. It isn't a "study" at all. She thought of her life, made up some points where she thought she might be better off for being white (an observation of 1) and published it.
  • + 17
 Please stop this Scribed nonsense.
  • + 8
 @Hakkapelitta: let's get attention to the real fact: Scribd is cancer!
  • + 4
 @Hakkapelitta Amen! How has that service survived? It is an absolute mystery how someone could use that service and then say, "hey let's share this horrific experience with all of our customers"
  • + 12
 This is getting out of hand.
By this logic, people with multiple/split personalities should be able to ride in the carpool lane.
Just use chromosomes to determine sex(if need be), and call it a day
  • + 12
 Loris and Amaury - at over 4 seconds up on 3rd place - That's amazing! And Tracey - for a dry down-under girl, she's slinging it in the mud! Hope she wins!
  • + 9
 I make my choices in life and don’t expect others to change what they believe or live their lives because of my choices or beliefs. I weigh the good and bad and choose my path. You were born a male or female, the way you alter your body or look dosn’t change genetics.
  • - 3
 So you don’t expect people to change what they believe except when you do?
  • + 5
 @Linkpin: Where in my comment does It say that?
  • + 3
 @Linkpin: you were born with either a penis or a vagina. 50:50 here. Whether you decide to live your life as the opposite sex is up to you and makes no difference to me, but don’t piss on my head and tell me it’s raining then get offended when your called out.
  • - 5
flag Linkpin (Jun 1, 2019 at 23:05) (Below Threshold)
 @bikeetc: You know there is a difference between sex and gender, don’t you?

Are you saying that you don’t accept someone’s new gender after they transition?
  • + 13
 Ropelato into 33rd! Can't wait to see what he does in the finals.
  • + 5
 Yeah i was stoked to see him do well.
  • + 7
 The testosterone rule is utter BS. I personally know powerlifters and body builders who didn't take post "cycle" drugs after heavy roid abuse and shut their natural test down for the better part of a year. Literally levels comparable to a females level. yeah they lost a bunch of gains from that but they'd still smash any woman in their sports. Hormone levels hardly mean squat. Having started hormone blockers when Kate turned 16-17 doesn't mean squat either. I was 16 when I benched 280lbs. Both sexes have something called

Myostatin is a protein the dictates MUSCLE GROWTH POTENTIAL. Men are born with different amounts than females. removing male hormones at any given time doesn't really change the outcome as far as physical prowess between sexes.

Note this is just ONE of MANY chemical pathways making such a difference.

I have friends who have transitioned both ways and I fully support them, but I do stand by my own belief that there needs to be another category for this to be fair to anyone.
  • + 7
 Imagine if any top male WC racer decided that he wanted to become a woman... after two seasons away they would come back and decimate the women’s field... would that be fair?

nothing against Kate, I feel sorry for her as she hasn’t done anything wrong and imo and is getting a lot of abuse for no reason.
  • + 8
 If a somewhat strong 16-18 year old wanted to compete in Powerlifting he would absolutely wipe the floor. I dont think anyone has somewhing against Kate- it has more to do with the stupid rules from UCI etc.
  • + 1
 Wipe to floor with the competition*
My bad
  • + 1
 @NotNamed: yeah I was about to ask if wiping the floor was some sort of entry fee to enter powerlifting competition.
  • + 1
 “decided that he wanted to become a woman”

That isn’t how being transgender works. For many people, it is a feeling of wrongness and disgust that starts very early on in life.
  • + 7
 I'm not normally one to weigh in on these issues but as a South African we are very aware because of Casta Semenya. Difference is she's forced not to compete unless she takes drugs to reduce her testosterone levels to the required rate. I think a simple biological definition of a woman would be the presence of a womb indicating to possibility of conception. Lowered hormone levels do not make a man into a woman. I have no with to offend but biology is biology.
  • + 0
 Its tough with semenya because there is leaked evidence that she is intersex
  • + 10
 It sucks to see Atwill missing another race
  • + 2
 Where is he??
  • + 1
 @bikestho: he didnt qualify in the top 60 and is not a protected rider. I'm pretty sure the timing of the weather has played a part both times so it comes down to who can go just fast enough to squeeze into the rear of the field. He's missed it both times.
  • - 4
flag reborn10speeder (Jun 1, 2019 at 19:32) (Below Threshold)
 @thesharkman: He's just not a very fast bicycle rider.
  • + 1
 If the UCI had any integrity at all he would have protected status on account of being a big rowdy bastard.
  • + 6
 UCI has to follow IOC rules (for elite athletes, non-elite they can impose their own rules) on transgender athletes. The reality is even if Kate Weatherly started dominating and winning every race, nothing would be done to alter participation against natural born females. It's going to take the top sports of the world, like women's tennis and women's golf, to be dominated by transgender participants before the public opinion just strong enough to act. Even then, I doubt much would happen, because the layman only follows the narrative of the political/media religion they adhere to. The female athletes competing against trans hold the power in this situation.
  • + 3
 Why does the UCI have to follow the IOC? Who cares what they say? They are the 3rd most corrupt organization on earth, right after FIFA and the Russian Federation government.
  • + 4
 Well, I will put it differently a bit. The social debate on sex/gender/physiology is one thing, and fair categories in sport is another. If the uci were to let David knight compete in downhill wc with a ktm 500cc Enduro motorcycle, we would say that it is unfair. It seems that, to keep the sporting categories fair, there has to be a system of rules that wouldn't allow unfair competition. That is why we have doping rules, bans on motors etc. The rule about the women's category now is the limiting of testosterone, which seems much worse and more invasive as a boundary than taking into account an athlete's birth sex. If we picked birth sex as the classification, It doesn't matter what gender an athlete identifies with now, which socially might be totally respected, but what athletic and physiological history they had until this point. We could, like this, have athletes who identify as women in the men's category and vice versa. It seems like a problem of semantics, but it would respect identities and not force people to take hormone suppressant drugs.
  • + 3
 People are taking hormone suppressant drugs because they want to suppress the hormones of their birth sex. It isn’t being forced upon them - they want to change themselves.
  • + 8
 from 23rd to 5th? that Shandro must have something in his blood..
  • + 8
 Go Hannah, she's my pick for the win now Seagrave is out.
  • + 5
 Really wish they would go back to top 80 for qualifying. Sucks seeing some top guys not make it into the finals the last couple races, especially when weather can be such a deciding factor.
  • + 8
 So keen to see Amaury Pierron back on the top step
  • + 4
 I had a comment taken down allegedly for “misgendering”, even though I just put in the table what really goes on without directly offending any specific rider. It’s funny to see how SJW really put an effort to create a “safe space”.
  • + 7
 Queen of Crankworx could take on an entire new meaning this year.
  • + 3
 I think that this issue doesn’t belong in the gender side of things but the sex side of things. According to the latest SJW rules (that I’m aware of) gender is a matter of expressing yourself and is a mental choice, while sex is you’re biology. So if you’re born with an XX chromosome you’re female and if you’re born with XY chromosome you’re male. Kate happenes to believe her gender is female, but her sex is still male. Testosterone isn’t everything and on average males are more cordanated and stronger than women. I personally think that sports should be decided by sex and not gender as that sex is objective and gender is subjective. The compition we’re discussing is determined by an objectively timed run. So why not determine the categories objectively? Those are my 2 cents.
  • + 3
 Sucks for Gwin. I was really hoping for more healthy racing between him and the top field. He's definitely having a sour start this year between bike thefts and ankle sprains.
  • + 5
 Yeah that was a pretty shitty month for him indeed. He'll overcome this pretty quickly tho, he's a true professional
  • + 5
 Has anybody shouted “Fn Eddie Masters!!!” yet??? Slaying it this season!
  • + 5
 So a man who identifies as a woman is 5th in qualifying for the ladies. That seems fair.
  • - 2
 Bit more complex than that mate.
  • + 16
 @FoggyDH: it isn't really. Removal of organs and/or taking female hormones doesn't change the whole child to adult development. All you need to do is take a drug for 12 months to keep your testosterone levels below the set level, been living as the opposite sex for 2 years and been diagnosed with diagnosed with gender dysphoria (requirement for UK gender recognition).
  • - 4
flag zede (Jun 1, 2019 at 14:36) (Below Threshold)
 @mtb-scotland: well you pretty much described just what @FoggyDH stated: that it is indeed a bit more complex than "hey identify as a woman, let me race in women cat"
  • - 1
 @zede: not really more complicated - all you need to do is put on make up and wear a skirt for 2 years.
  • - 4
flag iamamodel (Jun 1, 2019 at 20:22) (Below Threshold)
 @mtb-scotland: Really? "Just put on make up and wear a skirt"? I am confident that if Kate had a dollar for every tear she's cried over any issue to do with her change to a woman, she'd be a millionaire.
  • + 2
 She ain’t a woman @iamamodel:
  • - 1
 @mtb-scotland:

If you walked into a specialist clinic in a skirt and make-up you would not necessarily be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

I think you are deliberately simplifying this to make an easy point but unfortunately it’s an extension of your attitude that means that thousands of trans people either commit suicide or are murdered every year.

That might seem extreme, but sadly it’s the truth.
  • + 2
 @Linkpin: I'm making it simple because it is. I don't care if someone is trans or not so don't "blame my attitude" for anyone killing themselves.
  • - 3
 @mtb-scotland:

If you don’t care whether someone is trans or not why are you complaining about it on a public forum?

That would suggest you do care. And publicly ‘shaming’ and misgendering someone is a soft version of the violence perpetrated against trans people, whether you like it or not.
  • + 1
 @Linkpin: Not shammed the person or mis-gendered them. I've pointed out the unfairness of the rules so where you get this idea of violence against trans people from is beyond me.
  • - 2
 @mtb-scotland:

“She ain’t a woman”

“A man who identifies as a woman”

Both clear examples of misgendering.
  • + 1
 Both those statements are not misgendering as kate isn’t a woman. There are only two genders and you are born with yours. I wouldn’t have a relationship with a trans-woman because I’m only attracted to females @Linkpin:
  • - 2
 @mtb-scotland:

“Misgendering: refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify.”

Whether you like it/agree with it or not, Kate identifies as a woman. Therefore you are misgendering her. As you might put it, it’s very simple.
  • + 1
 @Linkpin: she identifies as a woman, I identify him as a man.
  • - 1
 @mtb-scotland:

Which is not up to you, sadly. It is up to her to decide how she identifies and not for some random bloke from the other side of the world.

I know you probably won’t accept that because you seem to have decided the whole thing is simple and you have it figured out, so I am not going to waste any more time trying to persuade you.

I would, however, urge you to at least skim-read this to see what the other perspective is to yours: thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/what-youre-really-saying-when-you-misgender
  • + 1
 Well my opinion is actually up to me. Kate was born with XY chromosomes, a penis & testies. That makes Kate a man. Changing your name, taking pills and maybe having surgery does not make you a woman. @Linkpin:
  • + 1
 @mtb-scotland: He's transplaining. It is authoritarian bullshit to insist other people play along in someone else's fantasy - yes "misgendering" someone may hurt their feelings - but if you are doing it because of your own convictions, and not to hurt that person, then that is just too bad - forcing others to utter an obvious untruth (X and Y are truth), or into silence, is a violent and despicable act. We are 100% entitled to our opinion and preferred pronouns. The rainbow mafia will disagree, of course.
  • + 1
 why does everyone insist on being a dick ???? it doesn’t affect anyone bar her fellow competitors, of which not one has had a problem with it. Why can’t we just let people live their lives
  • + 6
 Deadnaming........looooool Man, funny time we live in.
  • + 1
 New lessons I learned from 2019 Fort William WCDH so far:
1. Deadnaming. I didnt know it was called like that.
2. Transgender woman is MW and transgender man is WM. That clears that up.

So.. and yeah rooting for Finn Iles!! Go go!
  • + 3
 Dear pinkbike, could I kindly recommend like any other document hosting service other than SCRIBD for the results. It is the least user friendly hosting service out there.
  • + 4
 misgendering and deadnaming..... you have to be kidding me What a time to be alive
  • + 1
 Nope, not kidding - protecting the basis rights of another human. In that respect, a great time to be alive.
  • + 1
 The comments on here make it sound like it’s kade Edwards or Richie rude in drag. The IOC has strict medical rules on what’s acceptable. I’ve no inclination to change my gender, but I find it a pretty inspirational story.
  • + 5
 Troy Brosnan Fuhrdawin!
  • + 3
 Matt Walker currently in 11th, pumped for him didn't sound like he would be fit enough to race!
  • + 4
 Does anyone else get annoyed by the Scribd app?
  • + 4
 Brosnan. Quietly getting top 5s every. damn. weekend.
  • + 1
 This lad has always been a consistency model. His time will come, hopefully.
  • + 1
 Call me neanderthal. You can't change your DNA, at least not yet. Certainly not by declaration. XY, you're male, so race men, irrespective of adornments, or lack thereof. XX, you're female, so race women.
  • + 5
 EDDIE top 10 !
  • + 0
 No interest watching the ladies and seeing a transgender dominating the top five ?!

Rachel dominated and it bored the hell out of me . Now this competitor turns up and it's gonna be the same.

How many WC's has Kate done so far ?

How many WC did Tracey , Rachel , Manon etc. do To finally reach the top 5 ..not many of the ladies jumped straight away from juniors to the top 5 elite .. some did .. yes .. with how many WC's in their bag ?

It's so obvious.. it stinks .. these office people who make decisions have to find a solution pretty quickly or they can skip the ladies and just show the guys on red bull tv cause it's boring to watch females vs transgender. Sorry no disrespect but I am bored already . I stopped following other sport athletes for the same reason .. it's not working - equally for everyone and just disrespect the ladies cause you don't want to get criticised in the media. #femalesportdiscrimination
  • + 0
 What is the whole deal with transgendre athlete? what did I miss?

Sorry I´m at a lost here.

Thanks in advance for casting a light over here.
  • - 2
 I love the UcI statement,if they hadn’t made a point of it no body would have known. It just proves if your not good enough to race in the category your born to race, you can choose to race the other category by taking drugs and changing gender, can’t wait for the next Olympics. perhaps Rachel Atherton should race the Elite male so she has a challenge.
  • + 2
 Cue Rob Warner, "How does she sit down with..."
  • - 2
 I may not be competitive on an international level, but I’m a “pro” woman and I’d be psyched to race against (and loose to) Kate or or any trans sister any day. To all the dudes here who feel you need to protect women (from other women), please go find something else to do. I might have agreed with y’all 15 years ago, but after taking a long hard look at what sex and gender really mean (beyond high-school biology) and combining that with some compassion, I was pretty humbled by what I’ve learned. To the people out there who might relate to how I felt and thought 15 years ago, I encourage you to do some hard work.
  • + 1
 @rosylea I agree with you.
  • - 1
 Well balls. I was hoping for some good discussion of the qualifying results, was not expecting comments thread to be dominated by political discussion. With all respect to the issues at stake.
  • + 2
 Congratulations to the 10th place. women’s qualifier, Carina Cappellari!
  • + 2
 Anyone has the link for the live timings for qualifying?
  • + 1
 I can normally find it through the UCI website but it looks like they've changed it... Can't find any live timings anywhere super annoying.
  • + 1
 @edspratt: Thanks, clicked the link, but still can’t find it ... maybe some regulations in my country won’t let me
  • + 2
 oops, yeah don't listen to me click on that link. I guess I just don't know how to use a website haha
  • + 2
 @Calulo: just scroll down
  • + 2
 @Calulo: just wait a minute... the website is terrible and it takes around 60 seconds to show results link
  • + 1
 Scroll allway down bit hard to find but it's there ,gwin way back in 20th ,go Danny go
  • - 1
 The complaints about the Intense M16 and now seeing how much trouble the team is having... I can't help but wonder if the overall M16/M29 design just plain isn't good enough for this level of racing.
  • + 0
 Yes, that must be it, and not Gwins sprained ankle, weather conditions that have the defending world champ and winner of last months race having to rely on his protected status, and a crop of young, new pinners.
  • + 2
 4 Kiwis in the top 20 plus Minaar yeah!
  • + 1
 Is Bruni protected for this round ?
  • + 3
 I believe he was in the top 20 last year and is protected for the whole series.
  • + 3
 Top 10 from last year gets year long protection.
  • + 2
 @jfkusa: @jfkusa: Actually, they dropped the year long protection rule. It is now as it was before - top 20 going into each race.
  • - 3
 What an interesting time we live in! You can bash someone’s religion on pinkbike, cuss, call people names but don’t you dare insult a clearly confused transgender or any other lgbqlmnop group. The world is bowing to the whims of a small very mislead and confused group that demands all of these rights and protection yet refuse to offer that same respect to someone on their religious beliefs. I believe people should be treated kindly and with love but this backward way of doing things will lead nowhere but down! Mark my words!!
  • + 6
 Did someone make fun of Jesus, and that’s why you’re upset? Snowflake! Get a safe space!
  • + 1
 @stonant: Mocking someones faith is vile - it is as much an act of aggression as "misgendering" someone.
  • - 1
 Got to disagree there. If someone is using faith to be homophobic, sexist, or any other type of behaviour then they deserve everything they get. If someone try’s to tell me the earth is only 6500 years old they will be severely mocked @ashlemon:
  • + 0
 @mtb-scotland: Disagree all you want. Are you implying anyone with homophobic or sexist beliefs deserves violence then for their beliefs? If you mock someone who sincerely believes the earth is 6500 years old to their face, you are simply an a*shole regardless of the truth of the matter.
  • + 1
 I didn’t mention being violent @ashlemon:
  • + 0
 @mtb-scotland: "Deserve everything they get" certainly implies violence - or at least, indifference to violence towards others based upon their belief system. In fact, it sounds down right threatening.
  • + 4
 @mtb-scotland: Denying the advantages of a biological man is every bit as anti-science as sayin the earth is only 6500 years old. You are admitting that feelings are more important than observations.

Supporting men competing against women in sports is 100% sexist against women.
  • + 2
 @ashlemon: You took it to mean violence but I was replying to "Mocking someones faith is vile"
  • + 2
 @hamncheez: I think you've got your wires crossed here. I didn't say anything about supporting men competing against woman?
  • + 1
 @hamncheez: But saying women aren't as strong as men so they need their own category is also sexist and discriminatory.
  • + 1
 @JohanG: reality is not discriminatory. Men live more violent lives, have more depression, die younger, and engage in more reckless activity. There are biological reasons for this. To say otherwise requires one to ignore scientific observation.
  • + 2
 That is why they have their own catagory you muppet lol @JohanG:
  • + 1
 @mtb-scotland: Its amazing, isn't it? Its like a religion- feelings trump reality. How I want things to be is more important than how they actually are.
  • + 2
 Hart Vergier Atherton
  • + 2
 What happened to Loic?
  • - 3
 The only thing that will save female athletics in the near future will be boycotts by elite (actual) female athletes, this is just how it is shaking out. "Woke" governing bodies that allow this nonsense need to feel the pain of loss of revenue, and be completely circumvented as needed, but clearly the "change agents" are not concerned with loss of revenue (see Gillette giving the big middle finger to their core customer base). Unfortunately, there is an increasing and unlimited supply of men who will take advantage of this situation as long as it is allowed - the trend is obvious. Political correctness is cancer.
  • + 29
 "Unfortunately, there is an increasing and unlimited supply of men who will take advantage of this situation as long as it is allowed". You think there's an unlimited supply of men changing their sex to become women so they can compete as a women in sport? Seriously?
  • - 19
flag ashlemon (Jun 1, 2019 at 7:50) (Below Threshold)
 @bobochobo: As long as there is money and prestige, yes there will be unlimited men who "identify" as women who will show up to claim it - particularly as the social stigma of being trans decreases and, being trans becomes more and more trendy. This is obvious.
  • + 3
 I know right, Gilette's parent companys share price is only up 13% since the ad that
upset you
  • - 3
 @mbikes1: This is a fallacious argument. Gillette is a tiny fraction of Proctor and Gambles revenue - I would be curious to see Gillettes numbers, but I honestly don't care enough to even look them up.
  • + 4
 Apparently “don’t be a douche to people” ==“giving the big middle finger to their core customer base.” Where did the tv commercial hurt you?
  • - 7
flag ashlemon (Jun 1, 2019 at 8:44) (Below Threshold)
 @kleinblake: Don't be a douche to people? I don't remember that part. That ad and the most recent one is some of the creepiest, cringiest shit I have ever seen.
  • + 4
 @ashlemon: you really should drop the "identify" nonsense; if you think it's just a matter of saying "I'm a woman; let me race" you are underinformed. Saying that being transgender is "trendy" is also pretty ridiculous. You're statements are far from "obvious".

Competing for all the money and fame in women's DH mountain biking? You must be on an alternate timeline than the rest of us...
  • + 0
 @plyawn: Starting your diatribe with "you really should" is a pretty good indicator that you are a dickhead. I am well informed on this and many issues - and the fact that I have opinions that differ from yours does not mean you are right and I am wrong - no matter how many PC pinkbikers concur with you.

Transgender is a trend - it is increasingly popular - this is obvious by any metric you choose. It is trendy - it is increasingly popular among youth, the number don't lie. The number of elite level athletic events being affected by this issue is increasing rapidly - this is "obvious".

Ask Siegententhaller about loosing $$ to a biological male. Look at the faces of the women competing against CeCe Telfer at the NCAA championships. You think this is fair? You are the one who should get a clue, bud.
  • + 2
 Political correctness is CANCER!! Fuck yeah!!
  • + 1
 Men are so much better than women that they're better at being women than women are at being women.
  • + 1
 That's just dumb, UCI. A disrespect to the sport.
  • + 7
 It's an IOC rule. All sports governing bodies need to adhere to it. This wasn't UCI's idea.
  • + 3
 @Verbl-Kint: still a stupid rule.
  • + 0
 Celebrate Mental Disease, support a tranny.
  • + 0
 Cheering for you Danny Hart. Send that shit ????????
  • + 0
 Fat thumbs ???????????? send that shit Danny!!!!!!!!
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