Results: Qualifying - Fort William DH World Cup 2019
The track in Fort William has been looking wet and wild all weekend and it was no different for qualifying. In the Elite Men, Loris Vergier would set the fastest time down the mountain, his time would look untouchable for most of qualifying and only last years winner Amaury Pierron would get within four seconds of his time. Troy Brosnan would cross the line third, only 4.596 seconds off the pace. Reece Wilson would get fourth after putting down a great run, he will look to repeat his breakout performance from last year. Wet weather specialist Danny Hart took the final podium spot just over five seconds behind Vergier.
With current series leader Tahnee Seagrave out with an injury sustained in practice, it was all to play for in the Elite Women's qualifying. Tracey Hannah would make the most of this opportunity and would lead the women by over four seconds. Marine Cabirou would put down a great time that would sit her in second and Rachel Atherton was up at split one but would slowly make her way down the rest of the course. Nina Hoffmann is having a great season so far and she would get another great result just over 10 seconds back from Hannah, Kate Weatherly would complete the Elite Women's podium 17.125 seconds off the pace.
In the Juniors, it was no surprise to see Thibaut Daprela and Vali Holl top the standings once again. The Junior Men's field would see some great competition with the top 10 within eight seconds of each other. In the Junior Women, Mille Johnset would back up her fast timed training results and would be only 15 seconds behind Vali Holl.
Elite Men:
1st. Loris Vergier: 4:34.305
2nd. Amaury Pierron: +0.628
3rd. Troy Brosnan: +4.596
4th. Reece Wilson: +5.378
5th. Danny Hart: +5.611
Elite Women:
1st. Tracey Hannah: 5:18.182
2nd. Marine Cabirou: +4.437
3rd. Rachel Atherton: +10.643
4th. Nina Hoffmann: +10.778
5th. Kate Weatherly: +17.125
Junior Men:
1st. Thibaut Daprela: 4:50.395
2nd. Luke Meier-Smith: +2.421
3rd. Luke Mumford: +3.059
4th. Jamie Edmondson: +3.379
5th. Ethan Shandro: +3.674
Junior Women:
1st. Vali Holl: 5:36.238
2nd. Mille Johnset: +15.983
3rd. Anna Newkirk: +21.626
4th. Lauryne Chappaz: +1:30.563
5th. Sabine Thies: +1:51.169
Full Results
Elite Men
Elite Women
Junior Men
Junior Women
The UCI currently follows IOC rules that transgender athletes must have total testosterone levels below 10 nmol/L during and for at least 12 months before competition.
The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.
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The debates about transgender athletes, inclusion, and fairness are contentious. As these conversations unfold, please remember that there are other people at the end of your words. We expect the comments on Pinkbike to be respectful and constructive.
Specifically, please don’t violate our terms of use, which state that any hate speech or personal attacks will not be tolerated. Transgender advocates, social media platforms, and other media companies consider misgendering and ‘deadnaming’ (using someone’s former name) as slurs and personal attacks.
The aim is not to censor conversations or ideas, but just like other slurs and personal attacks, misgendering and deadnaming are not welcome on our platform. Violations of Pinkbike’s terms of use may result in comment deletions, suspensions, or bans. Any harassment, bullying, or incitements to violence will result in lifetime bans from the site.
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426 Comments
If I read anything about transgender athletes, I am freaking out and now it's my time to shine: why don't they separate them into their own class like mw for men becoming women and wm for women become men?
Don't get me wrong but even if they are 12 month below the given testosterone level, they still have a different physical level. Like in other sports were transgender women (mw) break several records in deadlifting, trackrecord 400m etc.
In the gravity sport like Downhill it will be unfair af. Its like letting a little less pumped and prepped Loic Bruni race in pro women's class and let him dominate every course by -20sec or more to the other ladies which is not fair.
If you spin it around, no transgender men (wm) will achieve anything like that! Because it is not possible.
Sorry for annoying anyone!
Well, Tracey Hannah seems to be on fire right now.
I am really rooting for Hart or Greenland for men and don't count Blenki out, his is checking fasting wet condition.
If I had a girlfriend competing that has dedicated a ton of time to trying to be the best in their sport, I'd have a pretty valid & strong opinion about the fairness of this specific issue. But I don't. There really is no flip side for me to ever have a comparable situation. Except maybe a sandbagger dropping down a class, which as I said above kind of sorts itself out sometimes through popular opinion & pressure.
@rewob: in track and field they implemented a number for testosterone but the gay male athletes are so far below that number so it’s not so simple. The rules aren’t set in stone yet because they’re realizing it’s not just testosterone
youtu.be/OwAGdZKLMCc
My wife is bi, and has really opened up my eyes to queer/trans issues in general. The last thing that I want is for trans people to feel isolated and not included. However, there is no way to allow such sentiments lead to a denial of science.
Men and women grow and develop at different rates with different maximum potential. This potential is what will allow trans athletes to dominate women's sports in the future, and it will never be fair for biological women if the number of male to female athletes reaches a significant level.
I want to tell it is always awesome to see every kind of person ride or race a bike. No matter what background/story or else he/she has.
But if it is about competing you should separate them without damaging other fractions. I'd like to know how the other women are handling or if they are mad eyeing Kate.
I am a bit dizzy now :S
Women have just scratched the surface of what they are capable of in mtb, think about how many more men currently bike. Just look at the whip off in whistler. Don’t you think as more and more women join the sport, more parity between men and women will occur?
The rules for a start.
They have decided their passion and identity and need to focus their life on that choice.
Every high caliber athlete has had to make considerable sacrifices to be where / who they are in their sport and there should never be an exception just to be politically correct.
You know we live in 2019 and people get butthurt. :/
@Nusterloo Its like letting a little less pumped and prepped Loic Bruni race in pro women's class.....had me LMAOi said that on the 1st article on PB they should separate and make a different class like in Fontana Ca there s a Clydesdale class for the Big Guys as an example they should do the same for the Trans Gravity gender too I see it the same way Not Fair for the other Girls ....
quillette.com/2019/02/27/confronting-a-new-threat-to-female-athletics
Trans athletes have begun to dominate other sports, and that's with a pool of competitors that isn't statistically significant. If the numbers become significant, then their overall success will also be significant. One pro trans DH athlete reaching this level of success in the female category, with little to no success if the men's division, is definitely dominating hundreds of pro women around the world
Maybe some female athletes get a testosterone treatment so they can compete on a higher level?
Just my thought to this ^
No matter the gender identity, seems like racers should be sorted out by their "assigned sex at birth".
Testosterone levels are only one variable in the equation. Hip structure plays a role in how efficient we are on the bike. A male structure generally tends to be more efficient. As said above, reaction times and coordination are different between men and women. I’m NOT saying any of this to be anti-women or pro-men. The women at the top (DH, XC, etc.) would absolutely kick most of the Pinkbike population’s ass.
The science on this topic is just too strong to be skeptical and to think that simply changing ones hormones, especially after puberty, will completely change that person to the other sex. It’s just not true.
Also, I’m DEFINITELY not advocating for pre-puberty hormone treatment. That’s a topic for another day.
Also this topic got out of hand, even as neutral discusser.
The only thing I can say that we have to handle it like a raw egg and let the UCI get a solution to this problem.
After, we can discuss more about it.
www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12070144
These are two I know about, there is one more I can't find of another weight lifting transgender woman.
Please don't be upset, just take it as information.
f*ck off! Ban me right now ,cuz I'm not playing your PC bullshit game. I dont give a shit who's racing or not,but I do care about arbitrary rules based on our "feelings" culture . Nonsensical bullshit right ,here.
www.cjr.org/criticism/caster-semenya.php
For paycho-therapeutical reasons, It is worth mentioning that most males have the white knight gene. When they feel a female is in danger, it releases the “virgin in oppression” and consequently “hero” archetype reaction, making them aroused and aggressive because evolution has shaped us this way. The one rescuing the girl is simply having the best chances of getting into her pants and proliferating your genes. If you don’t believe me think of a time where you heard that a girl you fancy is sad because her boyfriend mistreats her. You felt like a hero and you had a fire in your pants. Cinematography is full of these examples. Every womanizer knows that a sad woman is more vulnerable... except DH girls aren’t, you just assume they may be in danger.
So this mechanism is failing you here...
Night night!
[most people] I'M ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS ABOUT (insert some headline they've just read), AND EVEN THOUGH I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT IN THE SLIGHTEST I'M GOING TO GO ON THE INTERNET AND POST HYSTERICAL NONSENSE
*sighs*
Utterly clueless.
One last time, for the hard of thinking: Trans athletes have been competing in top level sport for over four decades. It isn't an issue, and it will become more and more prevalent, so wipe the froth from your mouths, get over it and move on with your lives
There are way too many times in my life that I've dealt with suicidal depression. My reality is my brain tries to kill me, I dont declare that everyone must give lip service to my f***ed up brain. It's up to me to deal with it, not the world revolving around me.
Give me a tranny that can joke about themselves and acknowledge the oddity without getting all narcissistic and butt hurt and I'll gladly be friends with him/her/them/they/xi/wtf. But I'm not playing silly games to save tender feelings.
Except the aforementioned woman in 6th, who has had the temerity to ignore the opinion you presumed for her and actually voice her own (see posts below).
Whatever next: women wanting the vote?
I don’t claim to be an expert on this, but it seems a lot of people are hugely underestimating the difficulty of transitioning.
There is a lot more to it than just waking up one day and asking everyone to call you Jemima.
Is the red I see the same as the red you see? Is the taste I taste when I eat an orange the same as the taste you taste when you eat an orange? It's all subjective isn't it?
I have often wondered what it would be like to have a drive of someone else's body. Much like when your friend gets a new bike and you have a ride. You can instantly tell the difference in handling between your bike and theirs. It must be the same for bodies.
History upgrade required for you: ACC (Anne-Caroline Chausson) ran a time on the same course and conditions in 1995 that would have won her the elite world champs, except the UCI wouldn't let her race up out of junior.
No, she is not an idiot - she just doesn’t agree with your slightly panicked view on this issue and has spent some time thinking about her response to it.
If you think hundreds of trans women are poised to take over the Elite Women category then you have a serious misunderstanding of what it is to be trans. It isn’t a case of a man thinking, “I might find life somehow easier as a woman so I’m going to be one.” The process of transitioning can be one of the most physically and psychologically painful experiences of someone’s life, and can last for years. It generally starts in a person’s very early years, too - long before they have grasped the concept of gender categories in elite sport (or even how to ride a bike).
And no, women's DH isn't about to be taken over by trans people but other women's sports already have trans World Champions.
It makes me cringe to even acknowledge you.
You're confusing the could, would, should. Would trans people take over women's sports? Highly unlikely. Could trans people take over women's sports? Absolutely. Should trans people take over women's sports? Absolutely not.
I think it’s possible that lots of people really are approaching the issue from this point of view, and maybe do have good intentions.
I can’t understand, though, what makes the (predominantly male) commenters think that the women in elite sport need protecting. They are seriously strong, both of body and of mind, and are quite capable of protecting their sport by themselves.
And frankly, all of the SJWs are failing to see the point,..none of us have a problem with trans people. It just is plainly unfair to genetically female competitors
Sorry, but your comments on it being a ‘mental disorder’ are outdated.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/05/28/health/who-transgender-reclassified-not-mental-disorder/index.html
Quite an important distinction.
But do you not think we should leave that discussion and decision to the women involved with, and affected by, the issue directly?
Or, equally, wrote to the UCI if you feel strongly about it.
Choosing to ignore that and making ridiculous arguments that imply only some expert could know that information and then feigning indignation when an alternative example is given to you, is on you. You aren't very good at this. Have a lovely afternoon.
The correlation of trans people with anxiety, autism and other disorders (not to mention the vastly above average suicide rate) leave little doubt that it is a mental disorder and should be treated as such so that sufferers can get the actual help they need, rather than a load of inclusive rhetoric that encourages the environment for the disorder.
The only way this can be settled is for transgender people to compete. Then the system will be-adjusted based on their results. It just takes timr
And it wasn’t a comeback, just calling em like I see em.
You sure you aren’t a trans too?
I used a CNN link as I thought it might be more easily opened and read by our friends over the pond.
Is this better? www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48448804
Do have a look at it.
Could you give us an insight into how you’re an expert on this topic?
Obviously you’re better qualified than the doctors etc. at the WHO, but in what way?
You know the type, they KNOW how to raise your child, which way you should vote, what you should eat (and why a healthy diet is 'gay'), which car you should buy, how to manage a football team, how to perform open heart surgery, how to do Police work and which photo should have won PB POTY contest.
But I stand by my opinion about the type of guys I described. There's a difference between disliking people for their views (which I try not to do) and disliking them for looking for an argument even though no one else wants to get involved and the subject doesn't concern them. Or pretending to know something they don't/not listening to people who actually do know.
As an example, since you mentioned Poland, I don't resent PiS voters even though I disagree with them about a lot because I think I understand where they're coming from and why that party keeps (and will keep for a long time) winning. Kind of like your airport nationalists and vegans. It actually makes me die inside when the so-called opposition call them names when they are the ones they should try and warm up to the other side in a bid to win.
But equally I can't help cringing when there's a pretty harmless (and insignificant in the grand scheme of things - it's just stupid riding bikes down a hill ffs) topic like this and literally no one asked for anyone's opinion, we could just watch the race and carry on, but not only are some people very quick to voice theirs, it's almost invariably the people who are:
- not involved
- not affected
- not educated on the topic
- not relevant in any way shape or form.
And for whatever reason they of all people think the sky will fall if they don't chime in with their shit. What kind of mission are they on? What's their point? It's not like the UCI or IOC is gonna read this and go "thank you for your input mr pinkbike user, we wouldn't know what to do without you; we've only been contemplating this for 30 years". Don't they have even the slightest nudge of curiosity to look/learn instead of talking, read up, check what's been said before, see what happens in the future (exactly like you suggested; just wait and see)?
I came to see the results and read the usual comments about the actual race/quali but then I saw this and it made me so pissed with its pointlessness that I had to do the same and join in the shitstorm
And referring to our sport as “stupid riding bikes down a hill ffs” is pretty egregious, so please show yourself out and don’t come back.
I don’t even watch womens’ racing and still find it highly irritating how unfair and foundationally baseless the UCI’s approach to trans assimilation is...there is plenty of information out there, this is a fairly cut and dry issue, it isnt fair to biologically female competitors, period. Saying anything to the contrary is ludicrous, and frankly, a bit comedic to those of us that have no vested interest.
To the blood sweat and tears FEMALE competitors....well it’s pretty f*cking clear what most of the champion level athletes think.
Any female competitor that doesn’t take issue with this simply isn’t a relevant competitor for the win. Case closed.
“none of us have a problem with trans people”
followed by
“You sure you aren’t a trans too?”
babylonbee.com/news/left-vows-to-topple-patriarchy-by-allowing-biological-males-to-dominate-womens-sports?fbclid=IwAR18o-LaQpQCkq6ae_9ingsEokUDiZs2i1ezt8m2t123j3ol_bADUf7hIcY
Once again, your appeal to authority nonsense is just that, complete nonsense and an argument devoid of any substance. You seem to care and have an opinion....You're not a pro mt biker or a woman. Starting to understand now or are you going to play dumb some more?
Maybe this will be a simpler analogy for you, easier than the meteorology one -- do I need to be Al Michaels or a former NFL player to know that Tom Brady is a great QB....or to simply have an opinion on the matter?
www.thecollegefix.com/transgender-woman-who-competed-as-a-man-last-year-wins-ncaa-track-championship
She finished 8th out of 9th in the men's race two years ago. Now she's the national champion among the women. Ok with you?
Yes. Here are my points very simply (the word “you” is used generally, not at anyone specific):
1. Identifying as female or as male (or anything else) is up to the individual to decide, not to anyone else. If you decide you are better qualified than that individual to decide their identity, you are imposing upon them. This applies well beyond the label of ‘trans’.
2. If an issue affects you directly, by all means kick off about it in the loudest possible way. If it does not, it is best left to the people it does affect unless you somehow consider them incapable of fighting their corner or expressing their opinion. More importantly, do not claim to represent their opinions without consulting them first, and certainly don’t disregard them as ‘stupid’ unless you want to undermine your whole position.
3. If a governing body or authority has made a decision you fundamentally disagree with, write to them to explain why. That will have more impact that shouting into the black hole that is the internet and will demonstrate that you actually want the change you say you do.
4. If you want to override the opinion of people who are qualified, you should be at least equally well qualified. If I broke my wrist in the street, I would trust the opinion of a doctor on the best treatment over that of a traffic warden. If the traffic warden pushed through the throng of people surrounding me and shouted down the doctor, they would not be helping the situation.
5. If a group of people tell you that saying a particular thing will upset or offend them and not saying it won’t negatively affect your life, just don’t say it. It is not compulsory to exercise your right to free speech at the expense of the happiness or safety of others, and it is worth remembering the position of privilege the majority of people commenting on this issue speak from.
I hope that’s clear enough. I understand that this is all just my opinion but the overwhelming response to this subject has really saddened me and made me feel less a part of the MTB community as a whole. This issue isn’t going away any time soon, I accept that, but if we can all express ourselves respectfully and with love for others it will be far less unpleasant.
But I do find it difficult to comprehend how a person who was born and raised as one gender decides it is now the other. Now maybe that is how it happens, and maybe that person is right, and they are feeling like that other gender. But how does anyone but a woman know what it is to be a woman? If I'm a man, but I don't think what I feel like inside is male, that feeling is specific to me and totally unverifiable. There is no way for me to be tested and for anyone else to know that feeling that I have is indeed the feeling of a female. It could be anything.
Does any of that matter? I think it kind of does. If societal norms are going to be changed for the majority on the emotions of a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, minority, I think the change should be done on the back of verifiable science, not the feelings of a tiny percentage of the population. KInd of like, hard luck. Someone who does not agree with the nomenclature already in place should be the one to accept the fact. I don't agree with pandering to minorities at all.
The only thing I’ve said on that in these comments is, “You know there is a difference between sex and gender, don’t you?“
Which is the same as what you’re saying, isn’t it?
I think it’s fair to say that we broadly know what it means in society to be ‘a man’ or a ‘a woman’, and while there can be nice things about that those assumptions can be damaging too - look at the suicide rate in 18-40 year-old men, for instance, which is still the most common single way to die for that age group. I would suggest some of that is to do with feeling pressure to live up to being ‘masculine’ - not talking about your feelings, keeping it all under control whatever’s going on and providing stability and power to others even when you feel helpless.
For some people, this feeling goes further. They don’t feel right at all even being identified as male, to the extent that they might self-mutilate, suffer in their mental health or even commit suicide. Given that, and the fact that gender dysphoria and associated conditions have a huge body of evidence behind them, I think we need to see beyond this idea of ‘pandering to minorities’ and let people do what is right for them, especially as it has little to no impact on us as opposed to huge impact on them.
If you really don't care and think there is no advantage why not compete in Men's field? Don't think you would be too happy then, there is much factory rides for competitors coming amongst last every race.
Look at it this way, you a professional rider on a factory team, who has just been beaten by an ameature, it's actually pretty embarrassing. In any other more cutthroat sport you would not be a professional any longer.
Don't take these comments the wrong way, there just facts
Life tip: When you think you've got it all figured out and you know exactly how it all should be....think again. You probably need to open your eyes a little wider.
We should have transgender racing to help resolve any issues, seems more common sense then a band aid fix.
@emi008 - you have to cut us some slack, this is nothing compared to wheelsize shaming from last year... if 29” wheels had feelings they would all be on heavy antidepressants.
And yeah, go Kate!
It's always better to acknowledge the problem, and explain how your point of view makes sense.
Debates about global warming, vaccination, "flat" earth have shown that ignoring stupid/uneducated/religious arguments just lead to progression of the most stupid/ignorant arguments.
While it's not making any sense to create a category for a single trans racer, and it makes sense to let them race in the women cat to respect their orientation,
pretending that XY - testosterone = XX is not helpful for transgenders, nor for women who want fair competition, and I'm not even talking about how disrespectful it is for the biologists and doctors that have been studying development and hormones for ages...
Still think transgender should have there own racing cat, makes it all clear and reduces friction. No doubt that will happen in time.
the fact that you re attacking me on a personal level here, eventhough it has NEVER been about me or you in the discussion, says it all... what about the young girls or boys out there who might see Kate as a role model for being just who she is, despite everyone being so untolerant and mean, and continue to push on doing what she loves most: riding a bike. ? What about Them?
I mean... for me it goes way beyond racing, (small) money, Obviously it is just my opinion. Some girls in the field might think it’s not right! I would never say to them they are morons unless they show no respect for someone’s private life.
To finish: not embarrassing at all to be beaten by an ‘amateur’ as almost the entire woman’s field can be considering as such (except 3 maybe), me included (working part time next to racing).
We, me included, have no clue what transgender athlete go through, year after year, as athletes or just persons.
So i dont want to hear people’s ignorant thoughts about transgender athletes on the result of a world cup race, no thanks. It’s like heterosexuel people having the feeling they have a right to say anything about homosexual rights ???? or man about abortion rights... do you want me to continue??
I m actually not here arguing about gender, i’m just shocked how people are focussing on that instead of everything else!! With lack of respect, man the internet is just so ugly.
Don’t tell me you compare my words about all these homophobic dorks to flat earther, that would be just insane lol.
You did a great thing by standing in her defense and showing your support. It shows that concerns are unfounded. After all it is the girls who have the say (Jesus it sounds like abortion discussion, what the world has come to)
But by commenting further you are just serving yourself on a plate to an army of blood thirsty trolls in berserk mode. It just gets them even more excited. We are not interested in rationale, we are interested in talking about something in an angry manner.
The worst of all... Waki
Cheers!
Actually, the abortion part already came up if you read one comment up. Apparently men are not allowed to have an opinion about that either. It’s only about life and death after all...
c`mon man
I am a man. I can’t fully understand the way a woman feels about an issue specific to women. I certainly can’t understand the way a trans woman feels about an issue specific to trans women.
The best plan for me is to support those people as much as I can, listen to them, try to understand how they feel and not weigh in on their arguments.
Thank you for bringing your voice to this discussion when it was needed. The people most affected by this issue are elite women - your voices should count for more than any anonymous internet commentators.
Best of luck to both you and Kate in the race.
show me the research then
Yours sincerely Connor Mcgreggor.
Just to check: are you explaining to the genetic woman who just got beaten by a trans athlete why your opinion counts for more on genetic women getting beaten by trans athletes?
I remember Emilie from the past - racing in Switzerland etc . Wonder how she would have reacted if her career would have been influenced by a trans athlete. I don't know mate .the #metoo generation is giving females a stronger voice and we disrespect them by placing a different sex into their category?!
..@Linkpin:
Having transgender in women sport is just another desperate attenpt by the industry to get women to ride a bike.
Guess what? It is backfiring. There is alteady a similar case in road racing - always from down under.
What about the 6’2, 220pound person competing for the women hand volley new zeland(?) team? Is that fair? Just google that.
Is it going to be fair when rachel etc etc can only compete for second place? You can train as much as you like, it is not going to be enough.
Cringe.
So do you genuinely think that dividing sport into male and female categories is an abitrary thing to do?
Or do you realise that half of the people on earth are women?
Do you also think that the Paralympics is a total joke and that people with fewer limbs or genetic conditions should just toughen up and work harder at beating Bolt?
You want to study medicine but your IQ is 99... yeah mate, that's OK. We can't discriminate based on exam results. Half the people in the world have an IQ under 99. Let's make another category for 99 and unders.
You want to be a professional basketball player, but you're under 5'7"? You do realise half the people in the world are under 5'7" don't you? I guess we could start a category for professional basketball players under 5'7", in order to give short people a fair crack of the whip.
I am against all forms of discrimination, including gender discrimination. I believe anyone who wants to try anything should be allowed to have a go. But I also believe we should be more realistic about the skills they bring to the table and about their value as a result of said skills. If girls want to play sport I'm all for it. If a man wants to have long hair and a dress I'm all for it, too. I'm not all for giving money to people to pursue their dream when they're not really that good at it. Everything should be based on merit. We have a bizarre situation in some sports right now where women are getting a great deal. Making the same as men at something they are not as good at, because they are women! That is the fact of the matter. Flip it the other way and start giving men the same money as woman for something they are not as good at and there would be a public outcry!
It's sexist and it's not right. Discrimination is bad. So why are we even allowing it, let alone promoting it, in sport?
That's how I see it anyway.
Your first point is not the same as this situation. Society needs good doctors and there is, rightly, a minimum threshold for this. That is not the same as sport, which is a leisure activity the participation in which doesn’t impact others either negatively or positively.
As for separate categories being sexist, is you are really trying to stand up for equality for women, have you actually asked any of them for their opinion. Otherwise, I’m afraid, you are mansplaining.
Honestly, my beef is with tennis and football.
There has been a big push to get the same salary and prize money for men and women, which is sexist given that the women aren't as good as the men. They are literally asking for the same money, even though there is the understanding that they aren't as good - evidenced by the fact that we have gender classes.
I'm all for fairness, and in my view what's fair is getting paid based on merit, not merit as a lesser category which is inferior to gender in terms of importance.
In tennis, I think there should be an app whereby you can notify the organisers which player you most want to see when you buy a ticket. TV money could be distributed to the players with the highest ratings - kind of like the UFC PPV system. That's fair. I am fundamentally opposed to the idea that for example, the England women's football team should be paid the same as the men's team because they are ostensibly paid by the same company to do the same job. They are not doing the same job in the same arena to the same standard. Therefore they do not deserve the same money. Can anyone in this thread name even one of the players in the England women's football team? I doubt it.
so yea, the only way to level the playing field is to have an open class where females that want to experience some of the juice,,, can juice for 3-4 years , bulk up where they need it and then cut their levels back and all have a crack in the one class... 'boostedbits'
I would love everyone to stop being so disrespectful to my fellow competitor Kate in these comments. Makes me just sad!!!
“Some users have politely stated biological facts” - that is true, but plenty of others are using those facts to justify having strong and/or intolerant opinions about someone whose life they know nothing about and, more generally, a situation that doesn’t affect them (and to shout down the opinion of someone who is does affect).
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and a “common conversation” is a right for us all. But that isn’t the same as proscribing what should happen to other people regardless of their opinion on the subject.
The key here is that men need to accept there are some "common conversations" you should not be having, and cis people chatting on about trans issues is one of them, same as men chatting on about abortion, white people chatting on about racism, cats chatting on about the best leads for dogs - it's got nowt to do with you, you know nowt about it, so keep your nose out. Toxic masculinity has got to learn to shut the F up and LISTEN to these people for a change, and for once just not comment on an issue you don't know anything about and doesn't concern you. @emi008 herself has spoken out in support here, so there is no need to save these women, they've got no problem with it so there is no issue, yet the commenters keep commenting. Why?! Because these opinions are not coming from a place of concern for the scientific "facts" which don't exist, or concern for the women in the sport who have no problem, despite all the pretence that they do, they are coming from a place of transphobia. That's all it is, plain and simple. If you've got a problem with this, you are transphobic. I ain't gonna argue with you, I got better stuff to do, but if you've got an issue you are transphobic. Try directing your excellent powers of scientific deduction and debating prowess towards yourself to analyse just why that is and sort you yourself out before you start attacking others.
Btw this is aimed at you, but not just you, this is aimed at every single person on PB to whom my comments apply to. You are all transphobic, sort yourself out.
Big up to you @emi008 for speaking out, you rock.
Take, for instance, the first "White Privilege" study by Peggy McIntosh from 1989. It reads like a journal entry. It isn't a "study" at all. She thought of her life, made up some points where she thought she might be better off for being white (an observation of 1) and published it.
By this logic, people with multiple/split personalities should be able to ride in the carpool lane.
Just use chromosomes to determine sex(if need be), and call it a day
Are you saying that you don’t accept someone’s new gender after they transition?
Myostatin is a protein the dictates MUSCLE GROWTH POTENTIAL. Men are born with different amounts than females. removing male hormones at any given time doesn't really change the outcome as far as physical prowess between sexes.
Note this is just ONE of MANY chemical pathways making such a difference.
I have friends who have transitioned both ways and I fully support them, but I do stand by my own belief that there needs to be another category for this to be fair to anyone.
nothing against Kate, I feel sorry for her as she hasn’t done anything wrong and imo and is getting a lot of abuse for no reason.
My bad
That isn’t how being transgender works. For many people, it is a feeling of wrongness and disgust that starts very early on in life.
If you walked into a specialist clinic in a skirt and make-up you would not necessarily be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.
I think you are deliberately simplifying this to make an easy point but unfortunately it’s an extension of your attitude that means that thousands of trans people either commit suicide or are murdered every year.
That might seem extreme, but sadly it’s the truth.
If you don’t care whether someone is trans or not why are you complaining about it on a public forum?
That would suggest you do care. And publicly ‘shaming’ and misgendering someone is a soft version of the violence perpetrated against trans people, whether you like it or not.
“She ain’t a woman”
“A man who identifies as a woman”
Both clear examples of misgendering.
“Misgendering: refer to (someone, especially a transgender person) using a word, especially a pronoun or form of address, that does not correctly reflect the gender with which they identify.”
Whether you like it/agree with it or not, Kate identifies as a woman. Therefore you are misgendering her. As you might put it, it’s very simple.
Which is not up to you, sadly. It is up to her to decide how she identifies and not for some random bloke from the other side of the world.
I know you probably won’t accept that because you seem to have decided the whole thing is simple and you have it figured out, so I am not going to waste any more time trying to persuade you.
I would, however, urge you to at least skim-read this to see what the other perspective is to yours: thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/what-youre-really-saying-when-you-misgender
1. Deadnaming. I didnt know it was called like that.
2. Transgender woman is MW and transgender man is WM. That clears that up.
So.. and yeah rooting for Finn Iles!! Go go!
Rachel dominated and it bored the hell out of me . Now this competitor turns up and it's gonna be the same.
How many WC's has Kate done so far ?
How many WC did Tracey , Rachel , Manon etc. do To finally reach the top 5 ..not many of the ladies jumped straight away from juniors to the top 5 elite .. some did .. yes .. with how many WC's in their bag ?
It's so obvious.. it stinks .. these office people who make decisions have to find a solution pretty quickly or they can skip the ladies and just show the guys on red bull tv cause it's boring to watch females vs transgender. Sorry no disrespect but I am bored already . I stopped following other sport athletes for the same reason .. it's not working - equally for everyone and just disrespect the ladies cause you don't want to get criticised in the media. #femalesportdiscrimination
Sorry I´m at a lost here.
Thanks in advance for casting a light over here.
upset you
Competing for all the money and fame in women's DH mountain biking? You must be on an alternate timeline than the rest of us...
Transgender is a trend - it is increasingly popular - this is obvious by any metric you choose. It is trendy - it is increasingly popular among youth, the number don't lie. The number of elite level athletic events being affected by this issue is increasing rapidly - this is "obvious".
Ask Siegententhaller about loosing $$ to a biological male. Look at the faces of the women competing against CeCe Telfer at the NCAA championships. You think this is fair? You are the one who should get a clue, bud.
Supporting men competing against women in sports is 100% sexist against women.
And for those who downvote, check out @emi008 comment-maybe you should let women in the actual field speak for themselves.
If reality is disrespectful, then whats the point of living?
I feel fairly confident the biological women are able to state their own opinions on this subject. Why don’t we wait for them to speak for themselves rather than trying to do it for them?