Results and Overall Standings: World Cup DH Val di Sole - Finals

Aug 22, 2015
by Pinkbike Staff  
ELITE MEN
1st // Aaron Gwin
2nd // Loic Bruni
3rd // Troy Brosnan



ELITE MEN OVERALL
1st // Aaron Gwin


ELITE WOMEN

1st // Rachel Atherton
2nd // Myriam Nicole
3rd // Manon Carpenter
4th // Tahnee Seagrave
5th // Tracey Hannah


ELITE WOMEN OVERALL STANDINGS



JUNIOR MEN

1st // Loris Revelli
2nd // Jacob Dickson
3rd // Laurie Greenland
4th // Andrew Crimmins
5th // Thibault Laly



JUNIOR MEN OVERALL STANDINGS




Must Read This Week

312 Comments

  • + 153
 Pretty gutted that Emmeline has decided to call it a day for racing. Can truly understand her decision but I will miss her on the track for sure. With Rachel Atherton, Emmeline has been my fave female rider for so many years and I'm sure I will not be alone in wishing her the very best for the future.
  • - 106
flag chyu (Aug 22, 2015 at 8:10) (Below Threshold)
 wrong article dude
  • + 76
 @chyu

sorry you think so my friend. I actually made the comment on this page as soon as Emmeline gave her interview on Redbull TV during the build up to the DH in Italy. Subsequently Pinkbike then posted an article based on the interview Emmeline had just given to Rob Warner & Claudio.

wrong article, right article? either way I'm still sure I will not be alone in wishing Emmeline the very best for her future.

Happy trails Smile
  • + 4
 or the right article since they interviewed her before the race...
  • + 27
 Damn @chyu, you got knocked the f*ck out!
  • + 125
 GWIN & BROSNAN GO 1 & 3 AT VAL DI SOLE ON BIKES WITH "WORST AXLE PATH IN DH BIKE HISTORY" - PROTOUR'S SCREAMS HEARD COMING FROM HIS BASEMENT
  • + 36
 For those who say demo sucks and never win nothing... there you go haha demo rules!! And it's one of the best machines out there you like it or not..

New neg me cuz I don't give a shit Wink
  • + 2
 Do you have a photo showing the axle path? Why is it bad?
  • + 25
 Protour claims he does, along with a video that a 5th grader made with a computer from the 80s showing how the bike "reacts" to a trail. His ridiculous claims and unfounded assertions have all been proven wrong this year, which is completely awesome.
  • + 16
 I just came in to see Pink Bike flooded with the tears of the haters...
  • + 6
 There's quite a few armchair engineers from when the bike was first shown on pinkbike - www.pinkbike.com/news/aaron-gwins-troy-brosnan-specialized-demo-prototype.html
  • - 121
flag Protour (Aug 22, 2015 at 8:54) (Below Threshold)
 Pretty impressive that these guys can go that fast and still stay attached to a bicycle that has the most unstable wheelbase in the world' s history of two-wheeled vehicles. That statement remains unchallenged thus far.

Actually Brosnan has gone OTB on the new Demo a lot more often than he did on the old Demo, but Gwin has the skills to manage it. Fun season, the tracks were great this year.

I still maintain my position that the design is dangerous, especially with less skilled riders. My legal position also has not changed: Specialized should provide a disclaimer for customers who purchase this bike that reminds them they have purchased a bicycle with an unstable wheelbase that could potentially compromise traction or send them over-the-bars. I'm surprised their own hyper aggressive legal team isn't on top of this.
  • + 44
 anyone else noticed that Gwin is running over 9000psi in his rear shock?
does he realy care what axle path he's on?
  • - 63
flag Protour (Aug 22, 2015 at 8:59) (Below Threshold)
 Yeah that probably helps on this bike. Less movement=less instability.
  • + 8
 How many career wins does this season add to Gwyn's total?
  • + 83
 Jeez you're full of shit protour.
  • + 40
 @Protour "a bicycle that has the most unstable wheelbase in the world' s history of two-wheeled vehicles. That statement remains unchallenged thus far." Well, since you haven't offered any actual independent scientific proof, your statements are as baseless as they come. You only offer speculation combined with charts from who knows where and an unqualified opinion- hardly something to brag about, especially since it flies in the face of what everyone has witnessed this summer: both Demo riders crushed it this year, going first and third for the Overall.

In this day and age where almost all manufacturers are making custom one-off frames and/or linkages for their athletes, no design can be inferior and still be dominant or successful.

Your opinions are completely discredited by real world experiences. It's time to move along and find a new topic to hate on.
  • + 26
 I have the new Demo and it's a very stable bike. Protour doesn't have a clue.
  • + 24
 lol, It's pretty funny reading the comments from that old article now. Big Grin
  • + 17
 Yep, definitive proof that specialized bikes suck and no one can compete on them.
  • + 19
 Did protour own a specialized bike and get tossed over the bars or something? Seems like a likely conclusion. It couldn't be the rider. The claim that Brosnan went over the bars more on the new demo than the old demo, I don't know if that's true or not, but maybe he's adopted a more aggressive riding style. Regardless, you could maaaybbe make the case that Gwin is so incredible he can overcome a bike's '"disadvantages" and win, but to say both he and Brosnan excelled despite the bike just makes you look stupid and unwilling to admit your error. Companies should be lining up to hire him to design bikes if he's so much more brilliant and educated than their own engineers.
  • + 15
 not to mention they are winning on a 135mm axle. who needs boost?
  • + 11
 You're an idiot on so many levels it's ridiculous! The bike isn't unstable, your brain is...
  • + 6
 @Gbone its 14 total for his career I think, 4 this year.
  • + 6
 Side note/question: is this the first Elite Men's DH World Cup Overall title accomplished with an air shock? Me thinks so...
  • - 22
flag mentalhead (Aug 22, 2015 at 11:08) (Below Threshold)
 The only problem I have with the new Demo is missing left part of the frame. That looks bad, no matter how many wins it brings. But if you look at the wins, Gwin still has been better on Trek.
  • + 13
 @mentalhead
I didn't like the old design of the demo, but imo this asymetric design is really good looking. Plus both gwin's steath paintjob and troy 's black and orange are ace.
  • + 17
 Using that logic pinkbike should have a disclaimer that protour trolls their boards.
  • + 23
 Protour lives!!! And is still full of shit!!!!
  • + 30
 Am I the only one who likes when protour is trolling?
  • + 5
 Looks like Gwin going to specialized wasn't the worst career move in mtb history. Not seeing as many "death to specialized" elitist haters these days.. hummmmm could it be because they're owning the podium. ..? Loven Bronsons demo...!
  • + 6
 no zede, I think that 80% of pb enjoys protour some enjoy reading, others reading and upvoting, some reading and downvoting, and most just downvoting after reading the first comment of the thread
  • + 30
 "...but not even a million prayers will get Gwin back to his former dominant level he had on a Trek Session."

- @Protour (March 24th, 2015)
  • + 4
 NOT THIS AGAIN. PROTOUR DOESN'T EVEN RIDE A BIKE. In that last mega thread he just kept on saying the same stupid shit over and over, not being able to actually prove anything. DONT FEED THE TROLLS.
  • + 1
 Come on, just ride those bikes, koz at least we're not riding a penny-far-thing for DH, right?
  • + 8
 I think gwin could have won on any bike his competition was using.
  • + 5
 I don't think it matters what the top 20 guys on the planet ride their going to be fast.. Be it specy, YT, trek or Santa Cruz, hell they could probably adapt to a Kmart bike and still smoke..
  • + 6
 So what happened on Troy's run? Also what happened at Windam for him? Both times he was on a banger run and then ended up back somehow. I kept waiting for Specialized to do their post-race recap video, but I don't think it ever came out.

Also was Marcello on porcore or something, and just suffered a half-flat?
  • + 5
 +1 on what happened with Troy. He was so fast on the upper section! He didn't seem to have dirt on his jersey, so I'm not sure if it was a mistake, crash, mechanical, etc.
  • + 5
 He posted on fb. Crashed and broke his pinky finger... Pretty damn impressive to then only finish 1.8 back!
  • - 10
flag thedeathstar (Aug 22, 2015 at 19:24) (Below Threshold)
 How is it that Troy loses only 3 seconds when he crashes? I guess we're supposed to believe that he would have won by 5 seconds if he hadn't gone over the bars at Mt. Saint Anee? He's a hell of a rider, but I think I would need to hear some second hand accounts other than just his word about it.
  • + 8
 He broke a finger crashing today @thedeathstar coming in 3rd is still wild!
  • + 11
 It's officially confirmed. Brosnan has teleportation powers.
  • - 15
flag Protour (Aug 22, 2015 at 21:06) (Below Threshold)
 Brosnan crashed again on the new Demo... imagine that. I see absolutely no resistance here to my factual assertion that the Demo has the most unstable wheelbase in the history of two-wheeled vehicles. If it wasn't some Specialized fanboy would have found another bicycle or vehicle by now and proved me wrong. That hasn't happened. Instead just meaningless personal insults that show desperation and a lack of intellectual cerebral activity. Typical human behavior but nonetheless typically unimpressive. I never said Gwin couldn't win on this bike, I've been impressed with his riding this year and have enjoyed watching him dominate again, though still not by the margin when he was with Trek. Despite his religious addiction issues I still fully respect The Gwinner. Most people who ride or race DH have addictive personalities so whatever, it's mostly in the upbringing. But his first two 'lost years' with Specialized definitely will have an impact on how his overall career will be viewed and its safe to say he lost at least 6 World Cup wins if he ever wanted to catch Minnar on the all time list. Hard to consider someone the greatest rider of all time if he doesn't have any rainbow jerseys compared to Nico's 10 and also isn't the all time wins leader. He is more James Stewart than Ricky Carmichael. Fun to watch but hard to make a case as the greatest racer ever. Largely due to his move to Specialized. I now order all clones to hit the neg props button and or insult me. That's all you got.
  • + 7
 @Protour, I presently own an M9 and have tried a Demo and GT and I do admit they are all different. In fact I find that the GT is a much harder bike to get used to and I don't feel comfortable at all on it. Regarding the Demo, its a nice ride but then again I'm only a Weekend Warrior and not a Pro Racer. For me my M9, stabilizes all the errors I due in regards of wrong line choices and my suspension setup matches me perfectly.

That being said, The Demo Setup's that Aaron and Troy ride are very different from the Stock purchase that you and I would make. They have their own personal Mech's that adjust every nook and cranny for them. I think that the one true perspective here is that they are Pro Racer's , this is their life and they adjust accordingly every aspect of their rides, either that be with Fox, Sram, Rockshox, Saint etc.

Leaving Trek and switching to Specialized for Gwin would take some adapting too and yes it took a couple of years but they were spent on adjusting and re-adjusting the ride so that it was customed made just for them.

Anyways, at the end of the day, it all comes down to the rider. They all have factory based bikes that are tuned to their riding styles and its the physical training, lines choices, when to let go of the brakes, variable and adapting conditions and some lady luck that wins it.

Loic has come in 2nd so many many times. Do you honestly think that the difference is between his bike and Gwin's? Hey maybe Gwin is using his old formula of adjusting his fork and shock to higher pressure which would mean much less resistance/impact on the ruts and braking bumps but then again it demands much more control, core stability and muscular endurance.

Today we witnessed Minnar go down. Seriously, I've been following DH for a hell of a long time and I never really saw him fall. He's always in total control. Is it because of the bike he fell? No. It's Human error, long story short.
  • + 8
 Guys, he's at it again. Just full of complete shit as usual. Troy was pushing hard, Greg was and Aaron was too, not to mention Brooke and williamson! They all made mistakes. Gwin made the least. That's racing. Not the bike. Protour is some wierd dude who doesn't bike and trys to troll people all day long about shit he makes up. Best if we all stop replying and not feed it anymore. Cheers!
  • + 2
 Proof is he has no iidea about the history either. Gwin is at 12 wins, nico had 14, Peaty 16 and now Greg 18. Pretty sure Gwin will overcome that as he has a long career ahead of him.
  • + 1
 oops! i meant 14 for gwin, nico only ten, peaty 16 and greg 18. aarons only 27 and is 33.
  • + 3
 Greg Minar Crashed and so did Danny Hart. What does that say about their bikes?
  • + 5
 Protour yet again spewing forth the written internet equivalent of diarrhea - you need to spend more time outside kid.
  • + 9
 Even if we allow @Protour his claim that the axle path of the Demo moves "upward and inward" the most (despite Protour's unconvincing artistic skills Specialized claim a "near vertical" axle path story) compared to any other bike... what we have all witnessed this summer just proves that Protour is wrong about it being a negative and instead proves that this is what is needed for a fast bike.

Troy crashed on a Demo...but still ended up third. Poor Bulldog got sent OTB on his flawless Trek in practice resulting in a knee injury and Minnaar, Danny, and countless others crashed/washed out in finals but they ended up further down the list than Troy. Does this mean the Demo corrects better for user errors more than any other bike out there?? If I apply Protour's warped interpretations of cause and effect, then yes it does.

Again, bikes at this level cannot afford to be even fractions worse than their competitors. They are out to squeeze every possible advantage over the rest, and that cannot be done on a sub-standard platform. Move along Protour, your points are all moot and disproven by simple, everyday experience.
  • + 3
 Agree!!! Troy crashed but he still went faster then the rest of the big names with out a crash. That also proves how fast the bike is.. not saying the other bikes are no good. They all are sick bikes
  • + 0
 Protour ... are you the ghost of Stephen Hawking ?
  • + 0
 The new demo does look odd. Why is the pivot point down at the bb? It's looks like anything you hit is just going to lift the rear end without activating the shock as its that low and the linkage doesn't make any sense it looks like from the pictures that as its compressed the rear axel is coming up and in at the same time. It doesn't look like a good design at all but it's clearly proven to work well and specialized know a lot more about design than I do.
  • + 5
 Protour doesn't understand the kinematic of this bike. The main pivot is concentric with the bottom bracket but the wheel is not attached to the same part.
  • + 5
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/12597105
The virtual pivot point is the intersection of these two lines, it is very forward and higher than the BB. The trajectory of the wheel axle is an arc which the center is this point, so the axle path is almost vertical.
  • + 4
 @Protour So you are saying that you can ride any World Cup track AT WC RACE SPEED, and NEVER, EVER, for the life of you, crash? Then start getting those sponsorships and entering races, and become the oldest keyboard warrior to win the World Cup for DH!
  • - 9
flag Protour (Aug 23, 2015 at 5:26) (Below Threshold)
 The axle path is the most upward and inward in the history of DH. This is the photo Specialized does not want you to see:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2

Here is the actual axle path graph Specialized does not want you to see:

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2015.PNG

Look at the numbers and compare them to any suspension bicycle in the history of mtb. It is extremely upward and inward, and the back wheel moves in nearly the opposite direction of the front wheel. The axle path of both wheels moving together is essentially like an upside down V. Thus the most unstable wheelbase in the history of two-wheel vehicles. Nobody has even tried to contest that point because it is an accurate statement.

Does anybody think there could be any advantages to riding a DH bike with the most unstable wheelbase in the history of DH that would actually make you go faster? Because unless you can get really creative and find an advantage to it I view you as essentially in agreement with me but still in complete denial because you are being stubborn.

Gwin is a winner but this design is a clear loser.
  • + 7
 word on the street is protour is from specialized marketing, and all this "demo hate" stuff actually aims to keep the demo as the bike the most discussed in the comments sections on pinkbike
#specializedevil
  • + 5
 I dont think protour rides bikes let alone works for specialized... should i take the trolls word and fancy little sketch for it. Or winning results by the best dh racer of our time... ? Hummm so hard. Just like my dick for the s works demo...
  • + 8
 @Protour - you are wrong. As @Sylvain-F has also shown, your drawings are inaccurate and you have not taken into consideration that the "main" pivot is well in front of the BB, by quite a long way. This means that because main pivot is well ahead of the BB the arc it produces is a near vertical axle path within the distance the rear axle moves. It's an arc, but because it is part of a very big circle, it is almost near vertical. This is the ENTIRE basis that FSR is founded on and that you are not understanding. It is no different than the old Demo in that regard, only that the location of the pivots moved downward to produce a lower center of gravity. They still act the same way and that way is not at all similar to what you are describing.

And the best part about Vital's G-Out Project.... all bikes do it.

Trek Session
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-World-Cup-DH-2015,9033/Trek-Session-9-9-G-ed-Out-at-the-Fort-William-World-Cup,92600/bturman,109

Mondraker Summum
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Mondraker-Summum,91856/sspomer,2

Santa Cruz V10
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-World-Cup-DH-2015,9033/Santa-Cruz-V10-Carbon-G-ed-Out-at-the-Fort-William-World-Cup,92568/bturman,109

Devinci Wilson
www.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Lourdes-World-Cup,8803/Dean-Lucas-G-Out-Project-Lourdes-World-Cup,88767/sspomer,2

Do I really need to continue?
  • - 1
 The demo Aaron is riding has a different axel path than the production one.
  • + 4
 Pivot location produces the axle path, and as such it is the same as production. What his & Troy's have is a slightly more progressive leverage ratio, which is not the same thing as axle path.
  • + 1
 Sorry "The CNCd alloy upper link is different to the production machine and produces a slightly different leverage ratio." -redbull Not sure that means change in axel path?
  • + 4
 @protour I have a simple test that is about as accurate as any statement you have made..

Take the demo 8 and any number of other more "stable" bikes out there.. Stand them upright only using a hand on the saddle. Now, remove your hand. I predict you will have a similar result with all the bikes.

How much time during a run is a the suspension under full compression anyway?

Side note, how fast was Troy going if he crashed and still only was 1.8 off? He had to be moving. .
  • + 5
 Let's just assume Protour is trolling and give this one a rest, okay boys?
  • + 2
 Lol, well regardless of your abilities - bike and track, anyone regardless if they are pro or not, can fall off a bike. Fuck me, if we didn't I'd be in much better shape these days! Daft twat!!! Even if it is that bad, it feels great, I don't own one - but having ridden them, sure I would!
  • + 1
 Don't want to go against the grain here but if you look at the G out slide show on vital @protour posted. The wheels on a bottomed out 2015 demo a very very close compared to all the other bikes. Definitely worth checking out the guys definitely got a point.
  • + 1
 @ka-brap if you look at those pictures non of those pictures the demo has the smallest wheelbase under full compression by a noticeable difference.
  • - 4
flag Protour (Aug 24, 2015 at 7:07) (Below Threshold)
 @Silvain-F The 'virtual pivot point' you refer to relates to the pedaling forces of a suspension design and is not what dictates the axle path. The main pivot largely controls the axle path, but the horst link on the fsr design actually has the effect of making an even slightly more upward and inward axle path. Nice try though, creative how you took something with no relevance to the topic at hand and pretended it was relevant.

dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2426014/2015.PNG

The Demo has about 38mm of inward travel, no other bike currently on the market is even close to that now that Morpheus killed their hideously ineffective concentric BB pivot bike:

m.vitalmtb.com/product/feature/Morpheus-Cycles-Shows-Off-New-Carbon-Downhill-Frame,120

@zede. I'm sure the Specialized marketing department is stoked that their expensive carbon DH bike has been revealed to have the most unstable wheelbase in the history of two-wheeled vehicles.

Potential Specialized Demo marketing slogans:

Instability guaranteed at speed

Innovate and think about it later

#Iamunstable

A Demo to die on

OTB but low COG

DH racing has about the roughest terrain of any two-wheeled racing discipline besides maybe motocross racing. And now we have a DH bike with the most unstable wheelbase in the history of two-wheeled racing. Makes perfect sense.
  • - 4
flag makripper (Aug 24, 2015 at 7:09) (Below Threshold)
 @protour kill yourself.
  • - 2
 ka-brap: "Do I really need to continue? "

Clearly Yes. Continue down your path of stubborn self-induced delusion until you reach a dead end sign called Reality. The reality is that none of those bikes you posted have even half of the inward movement that the Specialized axle path has.

Did you really think the virtual pivot point is the same thing as the actual main pivot or were you just being disingenuous? Reading your paragraph was pretty mind-bending, I might have to come back later and critique that a little more for humor's sake after today's ride. Good stuff, kabrap.

ka-brap: "GWIN & BROSNAN GO 1 & 3 AT VAL DI SOLE ON BIKES WITH "WORST AXLE PATH IN DH BIKE HISTORY"

You got that part right.

ka-brap: "PROTOUR'S SCREAMS HEARD COMING FROM HIS BASEMENT"

Sorry to disappoint you but this was another of your delusions. No screams, just appreciation for the skills of one of the best racers of all time in dealing with one of the worst suspension designs of all time.

@lumpy873 Actually, when you sit on the new Demo and sag it with both brakes fully locked watch what the tires do. The front tire will skid forward much further than it will on any other DH bike because of the extreme axle path imbalance. Now think about what happens on the trail if that happens; your front tire is going to 'knife', you are going to lose traction more easily compared to other bikes, and be more likely to crash. Admittedly not to often you grab both brakes but even if you were skidding the back tire and feathering the front brake you are much more likely to lose traction on this bike because the wheels are constantly fighting each other due to the extreme axle path imbalance.

Thank you @thenotoriusmic for going against the pinkbike grain and acknowledging the obvious.
  • + 10
 makripper: "@protour kill yourself."

Thanks for the offer but I am not really interested in trying out the new Demo.
  • + 6
 protour made a funny!

"The front tire will skid forward much further" if the demo has a forward axle path, the center of the bike will move rear-wards, and the front wheel will move rearwards, not forward, no?

All this talk about "dramatic axle path" is really just a few mm different from other, more traditional designs.
  • + 2
 The best part is that he discredited his own theory right after that.. Locking up both brakes on full compression? If you do that, you are most likely OTB regardless of the bike and axle path.

@Protour, try more riding and less armchair engineering. . You can throw out whatever you want as far as numbers and theories, but it's how they work together on the trail that matters.
  • + 1
 @lumpy873 he doesn't ride a bike. Poortoor blatantly come out and said this a few times. He has no idea how bikes work in general let alone suspension dynamics. Prawntour is just trolling for the sake of trolling.
  • + 4
 p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/94/photos/95805/s1600_52G1745_vds_gwin_probike.jpg?1440297545

The bike that won the WC overall by a huge margin and won the last cup world race yesterday. she's a beauty.

here it is in a more chill environment.

p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/35144/setup_checks/29834/photos/43555/s1600_DSC00904.jpg?1439997388

Specialized has proved that you can run these frames with any suspenion setup, well any setup at all and still be an impressive machine.

They hit the nail on the head with the design and did the same thing with sam hill but it wasn't as successful.

Take the top guy, give him whatever he wants as far as bike and design/support goes.
another thing they did right was hire EC to tighten up the ship.

Good job specialized! they deserve the overall!
  • + 13
 @Protour Where did you find that axle path chart and why should I believe that it relates to anything about the Demo 8 or any other bike in question? Honest question.

Second- you are failing to understand how to map the axle path of any bike with a Horst link, be it a Specialized or Norco or Ellsworth or any other bike that use it. You cannot simply base the axle path on the pivots that are on the chain stay. You need to draw a straight line that intersects the center of the chain stay pivots (Horst & BB pivot) and continue it out past the font of the bike. You then draw a straight line that intersects the seat stay pivot and the upper frame pivot (essentially the pivots of the rocker link) and continue it out past the front of the bike. Where these 2 straight lines meet up is the main pivot location of the suspension platform. Take your our compass, put the pointy end at the intersection of the 2 lines, put the pencil end at the axle and make an arc. This is the axle path that you need to measure.

If you are not doing this (which the "WTF" drawing in your profile indicates) then you are doing it wrong.
  • + 3
 mine was too. so is my glory. The guy just doesn't understand bikes and has admitted to me before he doesn't have a bike. I actually offered to drive to vancouver and go for a mountain bike ride with him, any kind, xc, dh, am, we. He's probably just poor jealous and bitter that he can't afford to ride a bike, let alone a demo. I bet he goes to snowboard forums and complains about ride snowboards and how their boards are unstable and goes to BMX forums and complains about WTP's head angles being to steep etc. @protour go back to playing dungeons and dragons and being 50 and living in your creepy uncles basement.
  • + 2
 QUOTE
@Silvain-F The 'virtual pivot point' you refer to relates to the pedaling forces of a suspension design and is not what dictates the axle path. The main pivot largely controls the axle path, but the horst link on the fsr design actually has the effect of making an even slightly more upward and inward axle path. Nice try though, creative how you took something with no relevance to the topic at hand and pretended it was relevant.
QUOTE END

You are certainly not a mechanical engineer. The virtual pivot point, also called "Instant center of rotation" dictates the movement of the the part it refers, in the case of this frame the part the wheel is attached.
Read this you may learn something :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_centre_of_rotation
  • + 3
 @Protour I really wonder where you find you axle path graph, maybe it was made by your "science"
It should look like this, the ICR is the red point, this point will move down during the compression :
www.pinkbike.com/photo/12603389
  • - 1
 You don't really need graphs when you have images like this. The wheelbase is clearly very short in comparison to all the other bikes in the same slideshow.

p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/2/photos/91870/s600_20150517_fort_william_bds_MG_6438.jpg?1431957659
  • + 3
 works great for me.. actually works better then my ex Evil Undead Beer
  • + 2
 But, what exactly is the relevance considering how long the suspension is actually is that fully compressed state?
  • + 0
 www.pinkbike.com/photo/12597105

Sylvain-F: "The virtual pivot point is the intersection of these two lines, it is very forward and higher than the BB. The trajectory of the wheel axle is an arc which the center is this point, so the axle path is almost vertical."

Do you really believe this? Definitely one of the most idiotic claims I've ever heard about this bike. You are pretending that an imaginary pivot point that doesn't actually physically exist actually physically controls the axle path. The main pivot largely controls the upward and inward arc, but the horst link pulls it even more inward to a slight degree. How many times do you need to look at this photo before it FINALLY sinks into your head?

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2

The axle path also isn't even close to vertical, it is going upward and inward most of its arc. The fact that you got 5 positive props for that gibberish tells you everything you need to know about Specialized fanboys.
  • - 1
 lumpy873: "The best part is that he discredited his own theory right after that.. Locking up both brakes on full compression? If you do that, you are most likely OTB regardless of the bike and axle path."

I never said anything about full compression, you made that up desperado. But even if you go through half of the travel front and rear on the Demo, your traction is going to be seriously compromised because of the way the unstable wheelbase pushes the front wheel ahead. Much more so than on any other bicycle built ever.
  • + 2
 dude you know shit about demo's ... i have been riding demos since 2009 and you're wrong in everything.. every race i have been my bike's never left me down on any way and my 2014 demo works pretty well on full compression and super stable on track Wink go try one before talk shit.
  • - 1
 ka-brap: "@Protour Where did you find that axle path chart and why should I believe that it relates to anything about the Demo 8 or any other bike in question?"

It's the only axle path I've found on the internet if you have a different one post it. But honestly, like mic says, who needs an axle path graph when you have a revealing picture like this?

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2

It's not even close, ka-brap. The new Demo is the winner of The-Most-Unstable-Wheelbase-in-History award. The fact that I keep saying that and nobody can offer up another bike that might be more unstable is also pretty revealing.

The new Demo is an extreme outlier, especially considering some DH bikes have little or no rearward movement in the axle path. I still can't believe you went along with Sylvain-F's complete BS ideas about axle path. Look at the freak'in picture:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2
  • - 1
 Hey @hamncheez nice to see you again but I disagree with this quote of yours:

"All this talk about "dramatic axle path" is really just a few mm different from other, more traditional designs."

Considering the new Demo has almost 40mm of inward movement in its arc, it is much more than a few mm's. We are talking at least 20-30mm more inward movement than most other designs! Check out the pic home slice:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2

It really is the most unstable wheelbase in the history of bicycle design, and nobody here has yet to even attempt to dispute that.

I feel like I'm finally starting to make some headway here and people are finally getting it: Gwin is winning despite this bike and certainly not because of it. This bike faces a troubled future and at some point Specialized designers are going to have to publicly defend it against the accusations of having the most unstable wheelbase in the history of bicycles or move on to another more stable design. Going OTB is a very serious event, that is where head injuries, neck injuries, spinal injuries, etc happen. Going OTB for a lower GOG is not really a good trade-off. Do you really want to own up to this design, Specialized?

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2
  • - 1
 estica: "dude you know shit about demo's ... i have been riding demos since 2009 and you're wrong in everything.. every race i have been my bike's never left me down on any way and my 2014 demo works pretty well on full compression and super stable on track  go try one before talk shit."

Realize what year of Demo I am referring to before talk sh*t. I'm glad you like your bicycle.
  • + 4
 @Protour, you clearly are just taking someone else's uninformed opinion on the subject and claiming it to be true. Just because someone on the internet labeled a chart as "Demo 8 Axle Path" it doesn't mean the chart is the actual axle path. We, on the other hand, are taking the opinion and factually tested mathematical data from engineers of different companies all saying the same thing. Their opinion > Your opinion

It does not have as much inward movement as you are talking about, which is out of your ass.

You are a complete troll with nothing better to do than hate on Specialized, which is due to your mom not buying you one for Christmas 15 years ago. Get over it.

And also, when you compress a smaller frame size to full compression and compare it to larger frames that are not at full compression, then of course your images will be like that. When you want to show a compression comparison, take the sizes into consideration. Your variables are all over the place.

Go to sleep, stop crying that you lost and were made a fool in front of the entire internet.
  • + 4
 Bet you work for mondraker, or intense, Santa Cruz for example! But I've discovered that you don't own a bike at all?! What a spunk bag! Shit off and go and earn some money and buy a bike, then not be a dick about it! I've never owned a specialized - so I'm not a fan boy. Your point may or may not be true, but unless it's mouse porn mate, a couple of mm will make very little difference. Probably less than changing the psi in your tyres. (Two tenths of f*ck all) so please, keep your opinions to yourself - you ain't going to wear a crown for being a hero and saving lives!!!!!
  • + 2
 @protour you are the epitome of repeating yourself enough so you think people believe you.

We have all seen the picture. . Reposting the link a dozen times doesn't change a thing.. You are like my teenage daughter .. or maybe like my 7 year old talking about things he doesn't understand. I guess if a Demo rider has both his shock and fork blow out, a demo is not the bike to be on? That's the closest thing I can find to any sort of relevance. . Maybe that will be next for Gwin... His fork and shock will go flat on the first jump and we will ride the "most unstable bike ever" to a victory. .
  • - 2
 Hmm, still nobody resisting my assertion that the new Demo has the most unstable wheelbase in the history of bicycles. Not one person. You just can't say it, can you?
Because this picture does not lie:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2
  • + 1
 Just to let you know dickhead - the link doesn't work anyway, but carry on posting it. You'll look cool & make friends soon :-)
  • - 1
 the link works for me, maybe you can't see it cuz your are the dickhead, and dicks don't have eyes ? but then your username would sounds weirdly inapropriate
  • + 2
 Protour :
"Sylvain-F: "The virtual pivot point is the intersection of these two lines, it is very forward and higher than the BB. The trajectory of the wheel axle is an arc which the center is this point, so the axle path is almost vertical."

Do you really believe this? Definitely one of the most idiotic claims I've ever heard about this bike. You are pretending that an imaginary pivot point that doesn't actually physically exist actually physically controls the axle path. The main pivot largely controls the upward and inward arc, but the horst link pulls it even more inward to a slight degree. How many times do you need to look at this photo before it FINALLY sinks into your head?
"

Of course I believe this. You refute this proven mechanical theory ?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_centre_of_rotation
So it is the proof that you are completely stupid.

PS : I am Engineer at Airbus
  • + 5
 @Protour yes im like my bike i work perfectly fine, like you need to post the same pic over and over.. you must have repetitive issues in your f*cktard head.. your stupidity makes me sick!!

you have the worst malfunction brain path in human history...
  • + 5
 When you find 35mm I only find 21mm of inward travel
www.pinkbike.com/photo/12605932
Your axle path graph is a fake, Specialized engineers know their job.
  • + 3
 I really want to buy a demo now.
  • - 2
 Sylvain-F: "PS : I am Engineer at Airbus"

Thanks for the warning, I will avoid that airline like the plague and tell all my friends and family to also avoid it because of the obviously inept 'engineers' who work there.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/engineering/9088801/Airbus-A380-superjumbo-hit-by-another-fault.html

www.imeche.org/news/engineering/airbus-blames-engine-failure-for-a400m-crash-04061501

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/25/germanwings-plane-crash-attention-airbus-safety

Nice work there, I supposed you won't be too bothered if Troy Brosnan goes over the bars again at World's on the new Demo and is paralyzed considering the human carnage that lies in your wake.

Rather than attempt to debate somebody who thinks that the 'virtual pivot point' is an actual pivot, I will simply refer you to a conversation with Dave Weagle(DW), the man who coined that term:

www.ridemonkey.com/threads/virtual-pivot-point.19653

Dave Weagle: "Your statement above is correct, if you are talking about a PATH. But if you read, I am not. I am talking about a point, a POINT at which there is a transition of the focus of the averaged radius of the linkage path curvature."

A little more convincing than your Wikipedia BS that doesn't even apply here.

Pay special attention to the 3rd comment from DW where he points out the obvious:

"

Your statement above is correct, if you are talking about a PATHBut if you read, I am not. I am talking about a point, a POINT at which there is a transition of the focus of the averaged radius of the linkage path curvature."
  • + 1
 Ah give it a rest guys.. just give the troll the last word and go ride or somthing. All this debate if thats what ya wanna call it is meaningless...
  • + 2
 @Protour Here is a quick pick I made, and its far from scientific:

i.imgur.com/im6US99.jpg

Its an overlay of that demo bottoming out pic that you've linked to, with a mondraker summun. They are aligned at the rear axle. Under full compression, its true, the mondraker has a longer wheelbase, as seen by the front wheel (the monnraker is the one with the white fox 40). HOWEVER, if you look at the head tube its also further forward because of the longer top tube. The distance between the two front axles is BARELY more than the distance between the head tubes, and the fox 40 is ever so slightly more slack , meaning the effective wheelbase between the two bikes is essentially the same once you account for the top tube differences.

TL;DR : under full compression the new Demo and the new Mondraker undergo very similar wheelbase changes.
  • + 1
 @Protour Holy crap you are grasping... grasping for any attempt to make yourself seem remotely relevant at this point. You can't understand anything and thus you latch on to what you think is a counter argument. Dave is referring to VPP and the pedaling point someone brought up. But he does actually acknowledge what you are denying: "Actually, your pivot point. or "virtual pivot point" can be below the imaginary projection of the chainline and still have extension. Your analysis is assuming that the rear wheel is locked to the swingarm, which is not truly the case."

He is exactly describing our point: you think the axle is locked to the swingarm, which is not truly the case. The axle behaves as if the main pivot was out in front of the bike.

Simply because you clearly don't understand basic principles of engineering, you denounce them and point to something else as if it were applicable. Weagle obviously knows what he is talking about, but you clearly are taking things out of context and hoping that it applies out your argument.

**Golf clap**

It's like trying to argue with a dog about mathematics. We can't get upset you. We can only smile, pat you on the head and throw the stick again.
  • + 3
 SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTT THE FUCK UP!!! no one cares, and you're just annoying me with updates now. calm down you dumb shits. we get it, some hate demos, some don't you're both experts and both your dicks are huge, just fuck off.
  • + 3
 @TFreeman +1
  • - 3
 ka-brap: "@Protour - you are wrong. As @Sylvain-F has also shown, your drawings are inaccurate and you have not taken into consideration that the "main" pivot is well in front of the BB, by quite a long way."

Your nativity here is hilarious ka-brap. All Sylvain-F showed is that he is seriously confused about the difference between the main pivot and the 'virtual' pivot point that relates to where pedaling forces are isolated. So of course you immediately jump on his confused bandwagon and demonstrate that you are just as ignorant as him on the subject.

ka-brap. "This means that because main pivot is well ahead of the BB the arc it produces is a near vertical axle path within the distance the rear axle moves."

How high does one have to get to delude themselves into thinking the virtual pivot is the same thing as the main pivot? That's not even the virtual pivot, though. That's just Sylvain-F drawing two random lines and pretending they mean something when they obviously don't. And you bought it hook, line, and sinker. Feeling stupid yet? If not keep reading. ...

ka-brap: "It's an arc, but because it is part of a very big circle, it is almost near vertical."

Uh huh, the delusion grows deeper. Doubling down on stupidity, but here you get really creative with it:

ka-brap: "This is the ENTIRE basis that FSR is founded on and that you are not understanding."

So the entire basis of fsr is a near-vertical axle path that in reality actually isn't nearly vertical at all? Brilliant, ka-brap. And for all these years I had thought the basis of the fsr design was suspension that stayed active under braking and pedaling. No, ka-brap says the ENTIRE basis of the fsr design is a near vertical axle path that pivots off an imaginary pivot that doesn't actually exist way in front of the BB. Calling you an idiot at this point would be the polite approach.

ka-brap: "It is no different than the old Demo in that regard, only that the location of the pivots moved downward to produce a lower center of gravity. They still act the same way and that way is not at all similar to what you are describing."

They lowered the main pivot that largely controls the axle path a humongous 2", that is precisely what causes the almost 40mm of inward movement that you are in complete delusional denial about.

ka-brap: "And the best part about Vital's G-Out Project.... all bikes do it."

Yes, all bikes bottom out. But only the Demo instantly converts to highly unstable dirt jumper wheelbase when it bottoms out:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2
  • - 3
 @hamncheez. The Mondraker has a link right next to the BB that actually pulls the swingarm away (outward) from the BB so there is no way that it has as much problematic inward travel as the new Demo.

m.vitalmtb.com/product/feature/First-Look-2015-Mondraker-Summum-Carbon-Pro,286
  • - 3
 ka-brap: "The axle behaves as if the main pivot was out in front of the bike."

So the main pivot is next to the BB yet you think the bike behaves as if it were "out in front of the bike?

Also, in that conversation DW was referring to his own bikes, which are actually the virtual pivot design. Hate to burst your highly delusional bubble but the FSR design is not a virtual pivot design. It is a 4 bar linkage design and thus has no virtual pivot. It has a main pivot that largely controls axle path, but which is slightly altered by the horst link. (actually brings it more inward as the top rocker rotates forward). If it didn't have the horst link it would be a single pivot and the main pivot next to the BB would entirely control the axle path.

Ready to give it up yet? I'm surprised you still seem confident given that you are embracing ideas that are so easy to de-bunk. Take another look:

m.vitalmtb.com/photos/features/G-Out-Project-Fort-William-BDS-2015,8934/G-Out-Fort-William-Specialized-S-Works-Demo-8,91870/sspomer,2



Like I said, I'm being very polite here in calling you an idiot.
  • + 1
 @Protour care to address the image i posted?
  • + 0
 @hamncheez
Yeah, it's blurry so I can't make much use of it.

Care to address the point I made about the linkage behind the BB that pulls the swingarm away from the BB? You had the time to make that blurry graphic but you completely ignore my point which completely debunks your idea, nice.

@ka-brap You cannot extrapolate the axle path of a 4 bar linkage design by pretending it is related to where the pedaling forces are isolated. It clearly is not, and you and Sylvain F are simply doing some very disingenuous posturing in pretending they are related.

Still nobody that has challenged my assertion that the new Demo has the most unstable wheelbase in the history of bicycles, this is getting boring. But World Championships in a week and a half should be interesting! Go Gwin!
  • + 5
 Wow, I guess I struck a chord there calling you a dog. But you totally respond like one, so I guess it was spot on.

It really is like watching a dog bark at a wall. You don't see past your narrow view of anything. It's hilarious.

If you look back, Sylvain F actually responded after my remark about it being a near vertical path, I merely helped explain it after his comment. And yes FSR is all about a near vertical axle path with the end result (your benefit) is its independence from pedaling and braking forces.

People have been challenging your ridiculous "most unstable wheelbase" theory for a hundred comments now you goon. No one here will make such a retarded accusation that another company has a worse one because wait for it.... it's a retarded accusation that only a basement dwelling child wants to harp on. Ultimately our experience proves you wrong, which is so rewarding. It's clearly not the most unstable bike out there (PS- that rider rode away from the full compression G-Out, so it can't be that bad). And while I am not qualified to say it's the best ever, I will note that the bike reigns supreme over the rest of the field. Which is a pretty good achievement, despite your insatiable frustration with it.

I just feel bad that your mom didn't buy you a Specialized when you wanted one so long ago.... This could have all been avoided.

Peace out, @Protour. Carry on barking at your basement wall. It's super fun watching you melt down.
  • + 10
 RIP my dashboard...
  • - 4
flag Protour (Aug 25, 2015 at 19:45) (Below Threshold)
 ka-brap, nice to see you write some intelligent sounding sentences for a change, but you've already buried yourself too in ridiculous claims and disingenuous comments to have credibility on this subject. I think I have documented it pretty well above but I see that you still have some more questionable comments that have yet to be ravished. Nice to see you slowly try to backpedal away from them though.

ka-brap: "People have been challenging your ridiculous "most unstable wheelbase" theory for a hundred comments now you goon."

Not really. It's mostly just been meaningless personal insults and Specialized fanboys insisting the axle path doesn't go inward despite all the obvious evidence that it in fact does. The only person who named a bike that they thought had a more unstable wheelbase was home slice hamncheez, but that was easily debunked. You posted some unconvincing pictures of others bikes with clearly more stable wheelbases that only bolstered my assertions but that's about it. Even the old Morpheus and Rotec aren't in the same unstable class as the new Demo in terms of wheelbase shrinkage because they had steeper head angles didn't have a forward rotating rocker arm that pulls it even more forward.

ka-brap: "It's super fun watching you melt down."

When did this happen? Was that the part when I was quoting your sentences and making you look fairly foolish, Mr 'the mysterious vpp controls the axle path"? Lmfao, I think this has actually been a fairly civil conversation until your recent butt hurt but that's understandable. I look forward to more of these conversations on this subject, it's been somewhat fun melting down your ideas. peas out @ka-brap.

Who's the next batter?

@jason-at-specialized ???
  • + 2
 @protour
You keep on using this word (disingenuous) I do not think it means, what you think it means" -inigo montoya

In order to use that word you must think very highly of yourself. It's a good thing, because you are alone with that one.

There aren't any batters. You are in the wrong field playing the wrong game about 5 years too late.

A winning bike is a winning bike. Shut up now. You can't really prove anything you've said. I wish I could trace your IP so I could disconnect your internet because you are wasting everyones time.


oh look.
ELITE MEN
1st // Aaron Gwin
2nd // Loic Bruni
3rd // Troy Brosnan

2 specialized bikes on the podium this and every race this year. and 2 specialized bikes in the top 5 overall. it must be terrible!! Maybe i'll sell my giant and buy 2 just to piss off f*cktart.
  • + 1
 For the sake of fairness, I am pretty sure Aaron and Troy weren't on the podium a every race.. But, they both had great seasons. . I haven't had the urge to buy a dh bike, but now I almost want one just to.fuel the flames..
  • + 1
 Lol lumpy! Easiest way to find out is: who's got one? Whip the shock off and post a video of the movement and boom we are done.
  • + 1
 I thought something like that.. But, the demo I have at the shop isn't the new design. Although, specialized claims the axle paths are similar, if I am going to do it, I will at try to do it right. .
  • - 3
 It's probably already happened and the loyal Specialized fanboy owners just don't want to post the results. I pretty confident it is in the 40 mm range of inward movement. I'm not absolutely sure it is the most unstable two wheeled vehicle in the history of two wheel vehicles given how much travel motocross bikes can have, but it absolutely does have the most unstable wheelbase of any bicycle ever created ever. Yeah, buy one.
  • + 3
 @Protour good work convicing more people to buy the "unrideable" demo 8! Keep it up and specialized may even pay you.

12/10 bikes have that movement you are talking about. That is actually a good thing because it pushes you forward through rough stuff. There's a reason they don't design bikes with outward and upward travel lol (except canfield and a couple others because they can't think of any new designs) Let me know when you get a bike and post some pics of u riding hahahahaha
  • + 2
 Here's what I would like to do...

Measure using a vertical line through the center of the bb and rear axle at 3 settings...
1) static with no weight.
2) with a rider at about 30% sag to simulate real world set up.
3) full compression.

Maybe even include the front axle in the mix too.. I would guess today's slacked out bikes shorten up more up front than years past.. Then we could see where the greatest amount of change takes place. No crayons involved, just simple measurements.
  • + 4
 All wc dh bikes are trying to achieve the same thing while getting around patents. That is a big reason you saw such wild designs, now they have been tuned and refined to the point where most people could jump on one and ride it comfortably right away with minimal issues or suprises or stability problems. If you can't ride a modern dh bike and feel like it's 'unstable' it's suspension setup and or the rider, every time. Most unstable bike I've been on was my revolt but they since tuned the suspension movement to the point where I would buy an undead. It's progress. Some get it. Some don't. If you think a bike is unstable, learn how to ride a bike.
  • - 1
 makripper regarding the extreme upward and inward axle on the new Demo:
"That is actually a good thing because it pushes you forward through rough stuf."

Yep, right over the bars. The fact that you think concussions are a good thing explains a lot about your writing style.
  • + 2
 The best part is that your whole theory is based on one picture that represents an amount of time that lasts maybe .2 seconds. . No real world data.

I'm curious. . What bikes meet the @Proutor level of armchair engineering excellence and which do you ride?
  • - 1
 I see what the .2 second has to do with anything. If anything that reinforces how important a stable wheelbase is, because the front end and back end are constantly and quickly getting pushed against each other on a DH bike. I ride a Davinci, which is about average for wheelbase stability. I don't actually even think axle path is that important, as long as it doesn't have any negative characteristic like the new Demo. What do you ride?

Getrektm8, if that was you that I didn't pull over for in time, sorry. Dude, you are fast!
  • + 2
 Lying sack of shit. Can't even spell the name of the bike company. What model then? Pahaha can't get enough of this ass clown
  • + 3
 holy f*ck. you guys are still going on about this? curse you!!!!!
  • + 3
 Yes let's keep it going. Does anyone know when specilized will release its 2016 Demo product specs and release date?
  • + 3
 @Rider656 usually in a week or two. end of sept at latest, with some product available in october.
  • + 2
 Yeah my guess is that specialized is going to do their 2016 DH product lunch sometime after world champs. Still haven't released the new alu demo, new or replacement status and the new DH clothing range that Troy been wearing all season.
  • + 1
 I could get behind a 650b status (not because the mid wheels are better, but for resale value and finding parts). I don't need a $8k carbon race machine, just something fun for the park.
  • + 1
 @hamncheez they are the perfect park bike and you could build them up to be lighter than the alu demo. With 650b that would be a mental do it all. Lyric or fox 180 and vivid air or dhx2
  • + 2
 I hate this thread. I hate my life.
  • + 2
 Welcome to the gates of mtb hell
  • + 110
 Gwin was like yeah I know it is cool to send the big gap but imma just bubba scrub the shit out of it.
  • + 6
 That was pretty sick. Danny Haart sent it to the side, Troy and Loic both sent it up, and Gwin scrubbed.
  • + 98
 So basically all I got from this post is:
Gwin is a god
Protour is a f*cktard
And everybody is a highly skilled engineer
  • + 14
 And everybody think they are as good as Gwin, so they are inflating their shocks.
  • + 5
 Hahahaha, oh man good chuckle. Well lunch break over back to more laps at Northstar
  • - 2
 Yeah! Meet me at the top of the mountain at noon tomorrow and we will race to the bottom to decide who wins this debate regarding which suspension design has the most unstable wheelbase in bicycle history.
  • + 3
 @GetREkTm8 the wanker doesn't ride a bike. don't feed le pathetic basement troll.
  • + 54
 What a run from Gwin!!!!! He was unquestionably the best rider this season.
  • + 49
 *of all time
  • + 14
 He's headed there (all time) but not yet.
  • + 6
 Sorry to burst your bubble but ......Vouillioz
  • + 13
 Anne Caroline Chausson is the best rider ever, even better Nicolas Vouilloz!
  • + 14
 It all depends on how you determine 'best'. Most wins? Then Minnaar. Biggest margin? Then Kovarik. Most Rainbows? Chausson/Vouilloz (let's face it, Vouilloz was faster so how can Chausson be 'better'?). Most exciting to watch? Hill. Having said that, if my fairy godmother appeared before me and said "Name a rider and I will give their MTB skills/fitness/ability etc." Before she even gets the question out of her mouth I will be yelling at her "Jared Graves!".
  • + 8
 I'm telling you, we need a multi-discipline World Cup. Nino Schurter, Jared Graves, and Aaron Gwin face off in a bike-only-triathlon. Weight the times in a way that makes sense, and grab some popcorn.
  • + 1
 But, isn't that enduro?
  • + 2
 Anne Caroline Chausson: 12 times World Champion (Vouilloz was 10), 5 times World Cup Champion (only equaled by Jonnier and Vouilloz), she also won dual slalom , 4 cross and lets not forget the 2008 BMX Olympics! And she had bigger winning margins than Vouilloz. So yeah THE BEST DH rider EVER. I remember seeing her fall off the race course, climb back on and STILL won the race by miles! It's because of racers like her that the Worldcup tracks were shorten to the 3-4minute tracks we have now so it would be less embarassing...
  • - 1
 She had very good results, but that doesn't make her the best rider.
  • + 2
 I want to give ACC all the credit that's due to her, but unless you're just saying she's the best woman of all time, you're giving her too much. Most decorated MTBer, sure. Best? As in level playing field against all comers? Don't be silly. She won all those titles against a vastly inferior field, when compared to men.
  • + 2
 Look at who her competitors were, you'd be suprised! She was laying the beatdown on plenty of big names over the years!
  • + 1
 The strongest women are middling pro men. Period.
  • + 41
 YES GWIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I see in the future)
  • + 8
 Oh yea
  • + 19
 YES BRUNIIIII
  • + 5
 troy.
  • + 1
 You know me! Troy!
  • + 72
 adding psi in my fork right now
  • + 9
 ... And there you go
  • + 14
 GWINNING
  • + 15
 5% sag is all we need now. stiffen up guys!
  • + 1
 Been riding my bike with a super stiff setup for years because I'v always felt I'd be thrown out the front door if I didn't. You don't get that lag after hitting a hole that gets you out of shape. I would say that his setup looks like he has a ride height valve in the rear. Maybe not but whatever it is he's hauling ass.
  • + 2
 Gwin is riding a fixie without a chain next year
  • + 30
 Little Loris gonna hurt everyone in some years
  • + 1
 He is one to watch. The next Gwin perhaps.
  • + 3
 Will be good to see Thirion back in action as well, he was great to watch and was getting good results.
  • + 27
 And please tell me that they fixed the wooden bridges. I dont wanna see some fracking chicken wire and wood construction determine the outcome of the race
  • - 1
 yeah .. that would be chicken sheets!
  • + 1
 Determine the outcome? Were they changing the bridges between runs? It's the same course for everyone.
  • + 2
 yeh at the end of first day practice i think they ripped them out
  • + 27
 Gwin = Class act. That's how you give a gracious winner's interview kids!
  • + 23
 The bulldog holding on, he'll ya Brook like a boss. Charging fast and scetchy.
  • + 18
 wow, what a great interview with Emmeline Ragot. Congrats to her and and an amazing career. Speedy recovery!
  • + 19
 Gutted that Fairclough didn't make it to top ten overall.
  • + 4
 yeah same here. Though he had a really good season.
  • + 6
 So sad for Brendog but he did get picked for World Champs so can´t wait to see him in Andorra
  • + 19
 Glad Minnaar pushed hard. Awesome to see.
  • + 18
 F1 back at Spa, World Athletics Champs and the deciding WC round at Val di Sol? Cannot w8 m8
  • + 4
 Damn, I need a third screen!!!!
  • + 13
 Aw mate, the European equestrian Jumping Championships is where its at!
  • + 2
 And the Australian Test Cricket team going in for the win (albeit a bit late haha, well played in last two tests England!)
  • + 14
 I watched the race on Tv, which is great. But hell the commentators were two f*cking roadies and were like: "look, on the last jump this guy's bike was crooked, he clearly doesn't know how to jump" and I wanted to kill myself
  • + 14
 My heart dropped when Minnaar crashed. I was so hoping he would win and give Gwin a rude awakening Hehe. Still a great run for Mr Gwin and a great DH world Cup event this year. Just depressed that it's over again.
  • + 13
 it´s the first time i see minnaar down
  • + 2
 I think he crashed at msa four years ago. It is very unusual you have to say. He is one of the all time greats, but in the next two years his record will be GONE.
  • + 3
 Why do you say Minnaar's record will be gone? Clearly he is still in winning form, and just almost won the WC overall after finishing 22nd at the first race. And if you think Gwin will keep doing this forever, consider that he hasn't yet had a real injury while in top form....
  • + 2
 That is true about injury. Miramar has 18 wins in 20 years, gwinner has what 13 in five years. Much higher run rate for the Gwinner. Still, I think they should just quote category 1 race wins and include world cup and world championships together in the record books. I think if they did that, vouilloz would be well clear for a couple of years to come.
  • + 12
 Half awake. Check. Slight hangover. Check. Popcorn in hand. Check. Let's roll.
  • + 9
 claudio choked up at the end. Correct me if im wrong but baseball, basketball and futbol comentators dont get choked up when the season is over. Truly shows how much passion people in this sport have me thinks.
  • + 7
 Congrats to the top 3....! SUPER BRUN..........thought he had it! Super congrats to.GWINNER#1 3xoverall so badass. Get that world champs............Yeah buddy!
  • + 8
 Damm troy manage to get 3rd after a crash and a broken finger.. this guy rocks!! get well soon
  • + 5
 Great race! Gutted for Troy...you gotta think he's going to hit worlds with a vengeance. That's two races in a row he was one mistake away from victory. Bruni may have finished 2nd (YET AGAIN!!!), but he definitely won the huck-off that was going on mid-course (Gwin's scrub was stupid-sick, though). Really glad Minnaar got back up after that nasty bail...that's one tough mofo. Great to see Mac Donald back on the podium along with the Rat!!
  • + 8
 Congrats to Gwin, but damn i want Bruno to win that one!
And a big shout out to Jasper Jauch, you deserve it mate! Smile
  • + 7
 I totally agree with you - Bruni, so deserving of a win.
  • + 6
 Troy what happened!? He was doin so well. Does anyone have a video of what happened to him that caused him to gain all that time?
  • + 5
 He broke one of his fingers according to his Instagram.
  • + 6
 he went on and crashed, broke his finger, and still managed 3rd place, he almost got gwin though.
  • + 2
 I would have loved to see him fully beat Gwin. If it wasnt for that crash he would have crushed him.
  • + 7
 Amazing season. Gwin is a beast. I almost cried, whren Minnaar crashed.
  • + 7
 Stay on your bike Danny !!!!
  • + 6
 Cheers to Bulldog and a tip of the hat to Eric Carter for his part in pulling Big S up the podium.
  • + 5
 Someone buy Missy Giove some plane tickets next year... with one race appearance she took 35th overall in Elite Women.
  • + 8
 Not bad considering there are only five riders in it
  • + 7
 BROOK MACDONALD
  • + 2
 Rachel was so close to a perfect season! Only 90 points off from the most possible. Makes me wonder if anybody in UCI history has ever had a perfect season where they won every race (and the qualifiers, but I don't know if that would count towards it)
  • + 5
 Ragot retired ????? boooo Frown
  • + 3
 @ 2:38 into Brosnan's run was completely insane!!! He was Blasting through sections way faster than any else. I wanna see where He bobbled to lose time.
  • + 4
 He didnt bobble, he had a major crash and broke his finger.
  • + 3
 Man ,He was still blazing afterwards if that was the case. This dude is gonna be the champ before long , especially under the tutelage of Gwin !
  • + 1
 Gwin's the GOAT. He won this championship so decisively, there was no way anyone was/is gonna touch him.
Any rational human's doubts were dispelled when he lost his freaking chain not 10 yards out of the fricken gate, yet STILL beat the absolute WORLD'S BEST
  • + 5
 Amusing how many americans say Gwin is the GOAT.

Have you heard of Minnaar? He's been racing longer than most and is ALWAYS fast. He's the most consistent rider out there, crashes about once every 4 years and has won more wc races than anyone else.

GOAT.

I'm sure Minnaar has seen many fast riders come and go, Hill, Atherton, Gwin, Smith. Noone can match his consistency.
  • - 3
 I'm sure he saw AG 'come and go' right on past him WITH NO CHAIN.
Winning is one thing. Winning under adverse conditions is another, and beating the snot out of the entire field of the world's best DH riders-WITH NO MOTOR- is several levels above.
And lets not forget that he lost the chain right outta the fricken start box, not 1/2 or 3/4 the way down the run.
When another rider(Minaar?) achieves something along this level, we'll talk.
  • + 5
 Gee hasn't been outside the top 5 overall from 2005 until this year (when he came 6th), which is a pretty good showing in terms of consistency too!
  • + 1
 This debate gets tiresome. How do you even quantify the GOAT? I doubt Gwin or Minnaar would consider themselves in this manner? They're too humble, yet we have people on the internet bickering back and forth about it. Both are amazing riders, leagues above anyone arguing about it. Let's give it a rest.
  • + 0
 GOAT = Most world cup wins. Simple.

Mens: It was Steve Peat for many years, till Minnaar overtook him this season.
Womens: Atherton currently has a huge lead.
  • + 1
 If that is your measure, then we can not compare until their careers are over. I'd imagine they'll both win more races in the years to come.
  • + 0
 It's not MY measure, its THE measure. Currently Minnaar is the greatest of all time, according to the accepted measure.
  • + 0
 Lol, neg prop away. What I say is correct. Razz
  • + 1
 Hetfield--
You're trying to apply common sense and reasoning to this argument, and there's no place in this kind of debate for that(I'm being sarcastic of course).
It is however, what the manufacturers, media, and even riders count on to make their living(s).
The media coined the term 'G.O.A.T'( regarding Ricky Carmichael IIRC) in order to give themselves something to 'report' on, and to drive fan interest, again, to give 'em all something to do and money to support themselves.
Who's the greatest quarterback of all time?
It's who the most fans say it is, which gives a HUGE advantage to quarterbacks who are currently playing of course, but what are the parameters? Who makes that decision? Is it most wins? A lot of talking suits won't even consider a 1/4-back unless he's won Superbowls. I personally think it has more to do with how much talent the INDIVIDUAL person has, not that of those that surround him(the way you win in the NFL).
My reasoning for saying AG is the GOAT is the fact that his skill is such that he was able to beat everyone, INCLUDING Minaar, with the HUGE disadvantage of not having the ability to pedal his damn bike.
Am I right or wrong? I'll argue that at the end of the day, that's not even what matters.
What matters is, as I said before, the fact that WE'RE interested in the topic.
  • + 2
 Yeah the media may have "coined the term" or whatever, but counting a riders total world cup race wins seems a pretty good system for deciding which dh mtber gets the title. Thats probably why its what people use

Basically in the Actual Grand Total Downhill World Cup of All Time Greg Minnaar has just overtaken Steve Peat for the lead. Aaron Gwin climbed the ranks massively a few years back, went off the boil for a bit and now seems to be getting back up to speed. Come to think of it the rules are pretty harsh. 200 racers enter each race, the winner gets 1 point and the season never ends.

I wouldn't be surprised if Gwin took the lead at some point. It wont be for at least a few years if he does tho. He's definitely the best rider out there at the moment. Every race I look forward to watching him demolish the rest of the field. Actually, I think I'm gonna go watch his Windham run now.

I want to see Hill win a few more races. A season with Hill and Gwin both fit and riding well would be f*cking awesome.
  • + 4
 Does anyone know where the world champs will be shown? I can't find it on the redbull website for two weeks time
  • + 7
 It will be on RebullTV, it just hasn't been posted.
  • + 1
 oh okay thanks Smile
  • + 3
 YES GWIN. So happy...especially that i ride a demo too. Ok without the skills but at least I can not blame my bike for that.
  • + 3
 Gwin finally got his bike dialed now everyone gonna be fighting for 2nd!!! Gwin It 2 Win it!!!
  • + 2
 what's the deal with Italian DH racing? The turnout today looked awesome, but not a single rider from Italy in senior or junior mens...
  • + 9
 was not the junior winner an Italian?
  • + 5
 Jeezus I must've had too many Caesars this morning.
  • + 4
 Loved the fact both Rach and Aaron didn't hold back and just went for it!
  • + 3
 Why do the final results say that Gwin got 2nd at Lourdes? I thought he won by over 3 seconds????
  • + 6
 He crashed in qualifying and the 2nd is for the overall points that includes points from qualifying. Bruni got the fastest qualifying run (50 points) and 2nd in the final (160 points) which is greater than the 200 points Gwin got for winning.
  • + 4
 Anyone heard what happened to sam hill?
  • + 3
 If Gwin runs his suspension any stiffer he might as well just opt out for a beach cruiser and go full passenger
  • + 1
 I really don't understand how Specialized can be considered a trade team, but Santa Cruz Syndicate can't. The jersey styles are NOTHING close to the same, and this was why SC was denied.
  • + 0
 The teams must wear their actual UCI jerseys for qualifying run and final run, but are not required during practice which is when you see Troy wearing his super colorful stuff. Come qualifying run and final run, Troy has the same kit style that Gwin does.
  • + 1
 Surely you watched the same race I and everyone else did?

This look like a practice podium to you? That's pretty much the exact jersey worn during the race, if not the exact ones.

www.pinkbike.com/photo/12595487

Same kit style? You mean solid red pants vs. red/white pants. And some diagonal stripe multicolor jersey for Troy vs. white/blue/red for Gwin.
  • + 4
 Yes Loris Revelli! Congrats to the win on home soil. What a legend!
  • + 4
 YEA BOI MATTY G WHS DH TEAM REP
  • + 4
 What happened to Troy? he was on fire.
  • + 5
 He smashed his hand on a tree just after the first split cut his hand open on his knuckle. Pretty gutted think he had what it takes to win today
  • + 4
 GWINNING that sponsorship MONAAAAAY
  • + 3
 I'm so happy about Aaron & Rachael and I wish Ragot fully & speedy recovery! She is amazing woman!
  • + 1
 GWINNING!!! He's on a rampage this season. Everyone better look out as he's high up with the points this year. Great to see him back on top!!!
  • + 3
 Danny's shopping cart needs a little work...seriously.
  • + 1
 Stoked for Gwin!

Would Bruni have won the overall if He won this race?? If so, it would have been because of Quali-points and not actual race results.
  • + 1
 Those are the rules mate
  • + 1
 Bruni was out of touch before this race.... if he had not flatted at Windham and salvaged some points, then he would have been well in reach though.
  • + 1
 Right, I caught that after posting.
  • + 1
 @protour "I see absolutely no resistance here to my factual assertion that the Demo has the most unstable wheelbase in the history of two-wheeled vehicles."

hahahahahahaa
  • + 3
 go on jacob….another crackin' run...
  • + 2
 That's Crazy to see if Rachel Atherton was on "Elite Men", this rank will be 76 !! (37 seconds between Aaron Gwin and her).
  • + 2
 If I run my fork as stif as Aaron Gwyn would that make ME a winner?

... Probably not
  • + 2
 Vroni Eleonora and Loris FTW! but WTF happened to Troy? i smashed the upper section of the track...
  • + 1
 Well done Aaron Gwin - awesome riding! would this have been his 5th world cup overall if he had remained with trek??? food for thought..........
  • + 3
 Probably. That old demo was a PoS with a dangerous axle path and the most unstable geometry in history.
  • + 4
 Protour, is that you? Is it? Is it you protour?
  • + 2
 Danny was on a such a good run...Damn! I really hope to see him win a race soon. Go Danny Hart!
  • + 2
 Brilliant season again. Looking forward to next. All the best to all the riders who make this the best sport in the world
  • + 1
 Wonder who Claudio is gonna have on his team next year, we saw plenty of his old teamers and none of his current
  • + 2
 Gwins the best..... Nice job!!!!!!
  • + 1
 Why isn't 'Santa Cruz' listed under Rat Boy and Minnaar? Isn't SC their main sponsor?
  • + 2
 Mark Wallace! nice job another top 10 Fn A
  • + 1
 val di sole....where Gwin rediscovered greatness while Ragot bid her farewell.
  • + 1
 1. Gwin 2. Bruni Seems oddly familiar. Really hoping for Bruni to get a win soon.
  • + 0
 All the world cups done and dusted for 2015 and I still haven't won a fantasy contest. Trust me to pick troy and loci for the last World Cup.
  • + 2
 Another top 10 finish for Harry Heath. Norco's No1 rider next season?
  • + 2
 Damn!! gutted for Troy Frown Wonder what happened on this run?
  • + 3
 He smashed his hand on a tree just after the first split cut his hand open on his knuckle. Pretty gutted think he had what it takes to win today
  • + 1
 Thanks yeah you can see the cut on his hand when they were doing the top 3 podium on the redbull feed.
  • + 2
 what happened with Minnaar?
  • + 1
 Where are the props for Brook?!?!? Guy gets 4th with a dislocated kneecap!
  • + 2
 no live video???
  • + 1
 Girls on replay
  • - 1
 there s no proper live, its so shitty
  • + 1
 Troy and brook were faster but came up short. How does that work ?
  • + 1
 Loic, Troy, Greg, Josh and Tahnee BIG PROPS. Great year for all !
  • + 2
 What happened to Hill?
  • + 1
 Sub 3:40 for Eddie! Not bad!
  • + 2
 Gingers ftw
  • + 1
 Gotta say the best man won, and how attractive was that ladies podium ?
  • + 1
 rain expected at 3pm...
  • - 1
 Did anyone notice that the race timing is relatively slower than val di sole 2008?
  • + 9
 The track is longer ! They start like 2-300m up the old start. Wink
  • + 4
 They start higher up and they have different sections in the middle of the track. Can't compare this year's times to previous years' times.
  • + 2
 Thanks for clarifying vox/kabrap!
  • + 1
 Wow. How unexpected...
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