Revenue Round Up: It's Not All Negative with Revenue Increases for Some in Q3

Nov 20, 2023
by Ed Spratt  
Following the boom across the cycling industry over the past few years the industry is slowing down with demand falling along with revenues although not every piece of news is negative. Let's get into all the key details from brand's recent revenue reports.



The Leatt Corporation has reported its Q3 revenue dropped by 48% with revenue for the first nine months of 2023 falling by 43% when compared to the same period in 2022.

In the quarter finishing September 30 Leatt states global revenue was down from $23.2 million in the same quarter last year to $12 million. Global revenue for the first nine months of 2023 saw similar results as it fell from $65.4 million last year to $37.4 million in 2023.

CEO Sean Macdonald said: "Although our results for the third quarter of 2023 continued to reflect constrained ordering patterns, particularly from our international distribution partners who placed orders in early 2023 at the peak of overstocking conditions and constrained ordering sentiment, they do not reflect the current marginal uptick in sentiment that we are experiencing at the dealer and consumer level."



Garmin has seen a great third quarter as it reports a 12% year-over-year rise in revenue.

During Q3 Garmin stated its fitness revenue rose by 26% compared to the same quarter in 2202 as company-wide consolidated revenue rose from $1.14 billion in 2022 to $1.28 billion. Garmin saw nearly all segments record revenue growth, only its Marine business had a drop of 7%.

President and CEO Cliff Pemble said: "We delivered outstanding performance in the third quarter with double-digit percentage growth in revenue, operating income, and earnings.

“Looking ahead, we are well positioned for the holiday selling season with a strong lineup of innovative products, which gives us confidence to raise our outlook for the remainder of the year.”

Vista Outdoor

Vista Outdoor

Vista Outdoor is aiming to simplify its business model in an effort to increase efficiency as it marked a sales decline in the latest quarter.

The company's Outdoor Products business unit which contains the likes of Bell, Giro, Fox Racing, CamelBak, QuietKat and Blackburn saw a sales drop of 6% in the past quarter with a fall of 15% in organic sales. Currently, the unit is set to be built into a new publicly traded company called Revelyst.

New CEO of Revelyst, Eric Nyman said it will be starting a new "Gear Up" initiative that could include a focus on brands with the "highest potential" with company executives stating on a conference call that brands will less potential may be sold.

Life Time

2022 Sea Otter Classic Expo

Another company seeing revenue success is Life Time as it recorded an increase across the first three quarters this year.

Life Time's "other revenue" which includes its athletic events saw an increase in revenue of 17% compared to the same first nine months of 2022. Over the initial three quarters of 2023, the revenue outside of its fitness clubs totalled $49.5 million or 3% of the company's total revenue of 1.66 billion.


autonomous forklift picking up finished parts

The first three quarters of Shimano's fiscal year saw a fall in sales of bike products by 24.8%.

Shimano's latest report shows a tough year for the brand as its bike business' operating income was down by 48.8% compared to the same time last year. In the latest Q3 report, Shimano stated the cost of the worldwide inspection and replacement of Hollowtech cranks had already reached 17 billion yen, a total the company calls an extraordinary loss.

Shimano said: "Although the strong interest in bicycles cooled down, interest in bicycles continued to be high as a long-term trend.

"On the other hand, market inventories generally remained high, despite ongoing supply and demand adjustments."


Thule Velospace

Thule has seen a third-quarter sales rise of 8% year-over-year as it saw a boost in demand from Europe.

Overall net sales for the company rose from SEK 2,139 million last year to SEK 2,311 million in the same period this year. Net income saw a significant increase of 90.3% from SEK 137 million to SEK 262 million.

CEO and President Mattias Ankarberg said: "This growth should be considered within the context of bike retailers drastically reducing their orders in the year-earlier period in order to manage excessively high inventory levels."


MIPS headquarters

As demand for helmets continues to be low Mips has observed a net sale decrease of 32% compared to last year. Q3 net income was marked at SEK 14 million down by 53% from the SEK 29 million achieved the same time last year.

Net sales for the brand also saw a drop as it totalled SEK 77 million for Q3 instead of the SEK 113 million reported in the same period last year.

President and CEO Max Strandwitz said: "When we analyze data from our major bike channels, we see that despite the impact of inventory corrections, we successfully continued to take market share and increase market penetration of helmet models with MIPS' safety system.

"We therefore remain confident about our long-term growth opportunities in the bike sub-category once the market starts to normalize."



Premium apparel brand Rapha has revealed a pre-tax loss of £12 million for the year up to January 29 this year.

Recent documents from the holding company Carpegna Limited, Rapah made a loss of £10.6 million after taxes a drop from the £10.5 million loss the year before. The 2023 filing makes it the sixth year in a row that the company has made a loss. Turnover also followed the downward trend as it went from £131 million the previous year to £118 million.

Rapha CEO Francois Concervey said in a statement shared with "Our financial results highlight the impact of a turbulent few years and the ongoing challenges faced by the business, and the cycling industry as a whole. Despite a negative profit year, through strategic decision making around reducing overhead costs, leadership changes and doubling down on our mission to 'inspire the world to live life by bike’, I’m confident in our ability to navigate the current economic climate and make the right decisions to see improved performance."

Author Info:
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Member since Mar 16, 2017
2,851 articles

  • 68 1
 Vista's rebrand was brilliant. They haven't done a great job of getting the news out there, but what they did is EXACTLY what they should have done. Very well done. It speaks well for the future of those brands. I do not care for what they did to the folks at Bell/Giro/Blackburn in Scotts Valley. But the rebrand itself was top notch.

And those numbers are actually pretty good. EVERYONE is losing but having it be single digit numbers instead of what you're seeing everywhere else... 35/45/55%. That's a good sign that the variety of their portfolio is sorta working.

I can think of a few other brands are are failing at doing the exact same thing.

We're in a bad 18-24 months in the bike world. Everyone got their cash grabs in and now the market is flooded. Bike manufacturers can't sell what they've built. That means they can't play orders from suspension brands or component or drive train brands... so EVERYONE is going to hurt until the warehouses are empty. As a consumer... have fun over the next 12 months. You'll get prices around the same as industry folks do. Great time to buy. Then we'll readjust and pricing will readjust. Then we'll be back to 2018/19 type life. But it's gonna take 2 years.

We'll see a lot more posts like this.
We'll see a lot more... this company is closed, this company had lay offs. Etc.

But as a consumer.... great time if you have money.
  • 81 6
 Also, make sure you support your fellow rider owned brands, not these huge venture backed cash grab companies with bad business optics.
  • 33 0
 @Dorkin: not every bro brand has great “business optics.” But yeah, vote with your dollars.
  • 3 0
 Very true. Great time to build / buy a bike if you have the cash sitting.
  • 44 0
 @Dorkin: I did that, and then GG went out of business.
  • 22 2
 @everythingsucks: they were owned by a cash-grabbing venture capital company. VC pulled money out and shut the operation down. They hadn't been rider-owned for YEARS.
  • 2 0
 @Dorkin: u gotta kickbackcard widdat
  • 1 0
 If I rember right, Vista bought Fox only in August 22, so you are comparing apples & pears, when comparing Q3 22 sales numbers with Q3 23, I guess. Or I did I miss any detail?
  • 1 0
 @one38: That's why companies like vista buy companies like fox. Diversify and stabilize their portfolio. But yeah... that purchase and how Fox is doign directly ties into those numbers.

Mind you... that's Fox head, not Fox tail.
  • 4 9
flag boonecycles (Nov 20, 2023 at 16:35) (Below Threshold)
 12 more months of crazy cheap prices may be optimistic for new/current inventory. Most manufacturers in the industry started swinging the pendulum hard in the other direction about this time last year and it's starting to take effect. You might be surprised how many newer model bikes already have long term backorder dates. Phone calls to dealers are coming in almost daily from vendors asking for cooperation in pushing prices back up to retail by Spring if these year-end sales succeed in running remaining inventory low enough to create a much needed supply deficit scenario.
  • 6 1
 @boonecycles: LOL. If you told any company in the bike industry right now that they'd be in the clear in 12 months they'd either laugh at you or get down and praise you like the second coming of Jesus.
  • 2 0
 @everythingsucks: I did the exact same thing…. new Megatrail frame and a couple months later, gone w/o a trace ( for the most part). Pissed…Also … if you are a Descendants fan ( your UN) they are touring before long.
  • 2 0
 @boonecycles: Some 2024 bikes are indeed on back order, but the delays are no where to be long as they were a few months ago. Now to have dealers begging manufacturers to bring prices up is something quite special considering current economy situation.

I guess you forgot the part where loans are really expensive, lay offs are starting with inflation hitting hard all through the economy. It's also currently really hard to sell a used bike to fund a new one or it'll sell much lower so you'll have less money for a new one.

Anyway, I wouldn't be that confident that consumers will rush to bike shops to buy bikes at full MSRP in the next few months even when summer will kick back in next year.
  • 12 0
 Do we really think a consumer getting industry insider prices this year is gonna go back to paying 2019-19 prices in 2 years? Bikes are like a Toyota Camry now. They’re great, for 10 years or more at least. I think it’ll take a huge tech shift like gearboxes or solid state battery eebs to get people to upgrade again after the modern geo revolution. We’re not going back to 2018-19 because pretty much everyone has a 29er with a dropper, 12sp, and modern geo. What’s left to innovate on except at the highest of high end?
My prediction is the bike industry post post-corona glut is going to be just as naive as during corona and not read the writing on the wall that’s obvious to all us average Joe’s and we’ll see $6,000 entry level builds on analog bikes with no cheaper alloy option as if that is just oh so enticing to the consumer. I’d love to be wrong.
  • 3 0
 @Dorkin: Im happy to support Certain "rider owned brands" but alot of them are "we are doing this so we can play with our bikes for free" etc
  • 2 0
 @onemanarmy: Clear in twelve months is not what was implied. Not even close. What is implied is that what is happening right now is not sustainable, and the majority of bike manufacturers in particular aren't planning to flood the market with new bikes for a 4th consecutive year -- and at a net loss for a 2nd consecutive year. Production has been cut drastically for next year. The Taiwanese and Vietnamese factories are already reporting anticipated two day work weeks. It may take 2-3 years to fix this, but the bulk of the work can be done next year if a mild inventory scarcity of new models quickly becomes the norm.
  • 1 0
 @everythingsucks: whaaatttt really?
  • 3 0
 @Dorkin: we’ll all be supporting rider owned brands after the crash as it currently stands though I don’t think there is any. Same thing happened to BMX 15-20 years ago and now there’s only rider owned brands left. Hopefully the same thing will happen in mountain biking.
  • 2 0
 Additionally, those 35/45/55% drops are compared to last year, where these brands were experiencing their cash grabs.
  • 1 0
 @jgottya1: I like the Descendants, but my UN is an homage to the pinkbike comment section.
  • 2 0
 @Dorkin: I don't like to speak in generalities, but since you did: I've experienced significantly better support, integrity, and products from some "big" brands than I have from smaller local brands.

I've had some great experiences with small brands, but anyone can be a d*ck. And if that one person at the head of a small company is a d*ck, working with that company will suck.
  • 47 2
 Shimano released data on their cranks, what has the X2 cost fox?
  • 16 0
 lol shots fired
  • 17 2
 @reptilezs: But Vista are no longer supplying the ammunition.
  • 10 1
 Yeah, Fox never officially admitted any issues or problems, so no recall required. They just quietly say “24 model year X2’s are more durable and resilient than last years!”
  • 9 0
 @intensemack10: I bought a new prior year Transition Sentinel frame with an X2 a few weeks ago. I had the bike in for a fork service (I'd moved that fork over from my prior bike), and the folks at Transition offered to put on a loaner shock and send mine to Fox for replacement. That's without me having any issues with the shock (it felt pretty damn nice and was easy to dial in, but I only had fewer than 30 hours of riding on it). This is different than what I'd heard, which was that Fox was replacing them as they needed work/developed issues, but that there was no recall or such. I don't know if this is just my LBS being customer-minded and all that (Fanatik Bikes in Bellingham - they are pretty on it and have been a pleasure to deal with), or if it's a Fox thing. The shop having loaner shocks is pretty neat - the kind of rider who's the target for an X2 is also the kind of rider who hates missing out on rides because they have to wait for stuff.
  • 12 0
 @intensemack10: I sent in my 2022 x2 for service, it was working fine but I always send in stuff annually. Fox straight up just sent me a brand new x2, didn’t even try to service it.
  • 3 1
 @theconorcons: also received a brand new shock recently after sending mine in. That’s why I’m asking. Seems like they are preempting a class action but not doing an all out recall.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: the question is, should I send my 2021 purchased shock in. I'm outside the warranty now so I'm likely in a loose loose situation now.
  • 4 0
 @samfr1000: Yep. I had a 2021 shock outside warranty. Before they do any work they will let you know if it will cost anything. My bet is they give you a new one.
  • 4 1
 @samfr1000: Just send it in, in my experience the Fox service centres have fantastic customer service. Even when things aren't under warranty, they will often at least give you a deal on replacement of the broken part.
  • 5 1
 @g-42: I don’t ride an X2 so I don’t mind waiting for stuff
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: winter service, here we go.
  • 1 0
 Does this include 2020 X2?
  • 1 1
 @vpfree2009: Is there an issue with your 2020 X2?
  • 1 0
 @vpfree2009: technically no, but I know someone who got theirs replaced. We live 10 minutes from the service center and know the mechanics so ymmv.
  • 1 0
 @g-42: My 2018 X2 lost all damping in my final runs at Whistler in '18. I tried to rent a bike with a similar size shock so I could keep riding my bike while the X2 got repaired, to no avail. So I hired a bike from Endless Bikes to ride the "shore" and what used to be my local bike shop (when I was at UBC) rushed my X2 through the Fox repair centre in Vancouver before I flew out a few days later.
The X2 kept destroying itself until Fox changed one oil seal design - and then it was super reliable. Sold that bike to a friend and it is still working.
If the '24 X2 is more reliable than the '23, they must have a different failure point than my '18 because that seems to have been solved by '20.
  • 1 0
 @samfr1000: Is there an issue with your current X2?
  • 1 0
 @samfr1000: Call customer service. Who knows... maybe a happy christmas is coming your way. Worth a shot.
  • 1 0
 @R26: They changed a lot more than a seal on the 24. Lots of updates that as a package are showing much better durability and better performance on an already great performing shock. Performance was never an issue with that thing anyways. Just durability.
  • 1 0
 @g-42: Fanatik are great folks. Not my LBS as I am on the wrong coast, but I support them for forbidden parts and gear.
  • 1 1
 @teedubya: different FOX
  • 2 0
 @pisgahgnar: There is no reason for a recall, you won't die or injure yoursel from a shock failing, your bike just becomes a hardtail with a bit of sag at this point.
  • 1 0
 @pisgahgnar: Head on down to the orange box by the airport. They're replacing shocks like smoke detector batteries
  • 43 4
 i know i'll get down voted but this is what the industry needed, there are/were far too many brands and entities living off of 0% loans and lines of credit and playing with "Free Money" now that the Chicken has come home to Roost its time to lean things down a bit. There must have been 20 "start up" MTB bike brands in the past 36 months (another 10-20 gravel/all road brands).

I love MTB to death but the market simply isn't that large or growing that fast to support this influx.

This thinning of the heard will allow the brands that truly innovate and bring differentiation to the marketplace to thrive.
  • 9 2
 It does suck though, because competition = innovation. And not all the truly innovative brands will survive.
  • 19 0
 Nope, no downvote needed. Most of them made the same things as well with a low barrier of entry. How many stems, pedals, grips or even hard tail frames do we really need to choose from? The sad thing is that guys who were actually trying to innovate might get wiped as well. GG was one and I’d be worried for the likes of DVO, MRP, and TRP who are trying to add some needed competition to markets dominated by 2-3 OEM players.
  • 4 3
 Because more competition is worse and a few big players owned by conglomerates is better? I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
  • 1 0
 @TwoNGlenn: its pretty obvious that my statement clearly shows i'm pushing for innovation and differentiation in new brands. which is the ONLY way to compete against the big four. i want the little guys to succeed, but if they don't innovate, differentiate or add massive value, they'll die 9 times out of 10. i've been at this for 30 years and run a portfolio of small innovative brands. i've also made the mistake in the past of the generalists, they almost never last....
  • 1 0
 @sirbikealot: fair enough.
  • 1 0
 @vp27: DVO is funded by ktm and their own suspension brand WP, TRP is tektro...I mean those guys are pretty safe,e specially DVO, Unno is the son of the CEO of KTM spain and dude's been injecting money into that company like there's no tomorrow
  • 22 1
 I know it’s not the way financials are reported but they really should be comparing 2023 to 2019. The 3 years between don’t represent an organic market… those years were manipulated by governments. They should just consider those 3 years as a windfall, they will never be able sell at those volumes and prices again.
  • 7 0
 This is how everyone I know in and out of the bike industry is reporting internally. Those years aren't meaningful for forecasting and planning.
  • 2 0
 @GTscoob: Boise idaho has been on of the fastest grown cities in the us for years. A local window blind company supports residential customers. They’re building a 3 million dollar store to sell their blinds out based on the trajectory of their last 6 years sales. Some people have no business being in business.
  • 18 0
 Being the owner of a mom and pop construction business' that employs 70 people, I can't imagine seeing that large of a reduction in revenue year to year.. While i realize the previous years were inflated, those numbers are massive. Then you have Rapha, they haven't made money in 6 years! How do they continue? Carpegna Limited about to drop them like first period calculus.
  • 9 12
 It took Tesla 18 years to post a profit.
  • 38 2
 @redrook: Right, but Rapha is selling overpriced bicycle clothing and is millions in the hole. Not the best comparison haha.
  • 4 1
 It’s the way most big enterprises came to be. Tesla, Amazon, etc. They all lose money to begin with in order to chase market share and rake it in down the line. You’ll find this with smaller brands such as Allbirds, Faction skis etc as well. Trouble is, we’re talking luxury goods here with a smaller set of potential clients, not necessities. In case a downturn comes along, they can get wiped reaaal quick. Rapha was probably selling the promise of “Every roadie in Rapha” to its investors. Doesn’t look to be turning out that way.
  • 11 1
 @vp27: Unless you have massive investor backing (like Tesla and Amazon), you can't lose a bunch of money up front and make it up with later world domination. That business model only works in tech startup world, where too much money chases high risk gambles on astronomic future prospects. And that business model worked a lot better in a low interest rate environment with artificially low cost of capital.
  • 4 5
 Rapha is pre-revenue. lol. Here's the explanation from Russ Hanneman himself.
  • 3 0
 @g-42: I didn’t say it works. I just said that’s what they’re trying to sell to their investors Smile
  • 4 0
 @vp27: FWIW Tesla and Amazon are the exception, not the rule. Their exceptionally long, non-profitable growth periods had investors arguing for years about the proper valuation of both companies
  • 20 0
 @redrook: Tesla only turns a profit because of massive gov't EV subsidies
  • 1 1
 @dscottycole: "Turnover" of a UK company = "Revenue" of a US company. Rapha's revenue is $135 million in US dollars
  • 1 1
 it's all about scale and investment portfolio, as a single enterprise you don't have the flexibility that a larger corporation has, so you need to recover your investment every day whereas they can take years to recover an investment or not.
  • 8 0
 @IsaacWislon82: one has to wonder how a clothing company, that produces very expensive clothing where we can only assume the margins are high, with $135m in sales…. is still at a point where their fixed overheads eclipse their gross profit? What are they spending $145m a year on? I mean granted they only have to cut costs by a few percent to become profitable, but that’s not a small business.
  • 4 0
 @hg604: I wonder how much they lost (and are possibly still losing) on the clubhouses.
  • 3 0
 It’s not like the bike world is short on good (and somewhat overpriced) clothing. Plenty of good choices from assos, Giordana, castelli, garneau, etc. Rapha is the answer to the question no one is asking.
  • 1 0
 @redrook: It is not like Rapha has been developing something really disruptive, let alone one that need a supporting network (charging) that takes decades to be deployed worldwide.
  • 1 0
 @opignonlibre @Alexanz1: I agree, just pointing out that it can take a long time to post profit, I wasn't making a direct comparison in any other sense. Clearly Rapha have investors willing to float them and believe that they will become profitable. By this point it looks like those investors have fallen for the sunk cost fallacy.
  • 1 0
 @mattddrchs: I assumed you'd be correct but turns out not. Tesla are currently profitable without subsidies (i.e. regulatory credits) and post a net profit without them.
  • 1 1
 ITT: PB argues about the proper market capitalization of over priced chamois...
  • 1 0
 @IsaacWislon82: whoosh. Bad joke, I guess.
  • 1 0
 @Alexanz1: fiscally they are in the whole year over year, but the net value of their brand is significant. i don't like it either but this is how brands work these days, Telsa has yet to make a true profit, but their net worth is staggering....
  • 1 0
 @g-42: truth and that illusion leads many other companies to think they are tech companies when really they just sell mattresses or office leases.
  • 1 0
 @EdSawyer: Rapha could be the bike equivalent of Patagonia - expensive, but good value in the buy it once and keep it for a long time sense. I hear their stuff is good quality, and they offer repair service (always a good sign), but I don't know if they're just going through the motions or actually following through on that.
  • 1 0
 I thought the walton grandsons bought it, so they really don't need to make money.
  • 1 0
 @g-42: I have recent experience of Rapha’s repair service. I had a couple of crash tears in a pair of lightweight trousers (I’d bought in a discount sale). Filled in an online repair form and sent them away. A couple weeks later I received an email saying they couldn’t be repaired to a good enough standard, so applied credit to my account to the original purchase value. Genuinely surprised at their offer in a positive way.
  • 19 0
 17 billion yen = $157 million CAD = $115 million USD
  • 5 3
 Insane they can afford that... hats off to whoever approved that massive recall. Takes some serious cajones
  • 14 0
 @cmartin575: I'm happy they're standing by it. 115 Million USD is a big loss but potential lawsuits from a manufacturing mistake can be even bigger of a loss.
  • 15 3
 @noodlewitnosteeze: I don't know that I would say Shimano is "standing by it". These issues have been known about for YEARS and they kept producing cranks the same, flawed way.

They are also not doing a blanket recall, like they should, considering the serious risk of injury when these fail. You have to bring the cranks into a dealer and only if they are already cracking will they replace them.
  • 4 0
 @FrankS29: That is true, I hadn't read into how much they're doing.
  • 1 5
flag tacklingdummy (Nov 20, 2023 at 14:43) (Below Threshold)
 That is a lot of sushi.
  • 2 1
 I mean it’s their fault for allowing a flawed product to be made for so long. They could have resolved the issue years ago and saved their money.
  • 2 0
 @FrankS29: Working at a dealer that has processed several already, we found "cracks" in every set so far (most of them very subtle irregularities, to be honest), and Shimano has approved and replaced 100% of them so far.
  • 1 1
 @barp: Further supporting my stance that Shimano should’ve just done a blanket recall and get these cranks off the roads already.
  • 15 2
 Would be interesting to see SRAM’s Q3 numbers, with transmission stuff going live and NOT having a massive crank recall puts them in a much better spot then Shimano is sitting in.
  • 5 5
 SRAM is preparing for a massive road shifter recall because too much loctite on shifter bolts, all AXS road shifters effected - widely reported in cycling media including Outside but not reported on PinkBike
- also at one point we had a supplier giving away GX AXS upgrade kits with a larger order, so I don’t know if electronic MTB is the business success some believe - Seems like SRAM doubled down on this with “Transmission” so, we agree having their Q3 financials might be interesting
  • 4 1
 Since SRAM is taking 20% across all their lines right now I would guess they are needing to dump some stock and raise capital.
  • 3 1
 @Murder-One: but SRAM is privately held, not publicly traded.
  • 2 0
 @redfoxrun: I don't think that has anything to do with what we're talking about?
  • 2 0
 @Murder-One: I think I figured it out: thought you meant stock as in shares of stock in a company- you meant inventory/ stock.
  • 1 0
 @redfoxrun: Ah gotcha. Yeah, I meant physical inventory dump.
  • 18 4
 Rapha = Lol
  • 21 0
 I am no business expert, but 6 consecutive years of losing money seems like a lot
  • 17 1
 I wish someone could explain to me Rapha’s appeal. None of their stuff looks great or distinctive in any way. And it costs a fortune. I just don’t get it.
  • 3 1
 @TheR: I buy it when it is on sale
  • 18 2
 @TheR: I like Rapha stuff because they mostly have simple colors, the cuts are good, the gear is durable, and the details are well thought out. I have a few pairs of their pants/shorts that I bought on closeout. I was on a quest to find some riding gear with decent pockets and the Rapha offerings were some of the only ones I could find with 4 good sized usable pockets.

On top of that their materials feel nice and they seem to be holding up better than I expected. After having a bunch of Fox and TLD gear fall apart I'm happy to pay a small premium for good gear that lasts. If you shop their closeouts the Rapha stuff isn't much more expensive anyway.
  • 2 0
 @HB208: Serious question -- not trying to bait you or be accusatory or anything. What do you like about it? To me, it all looks kinda "meh." Is it super comfortable? Can you feel the quality? What is it?
  • 4 3
 @TheR: I think the understatement is the thing. I know when I first saw their roadie stuff I appreciated its simple retro vibe vs some hypertech or hyper loud primal jersey. Their stuff looked like it could be in that cigarette/TdF poster my brother had. Stick some wine corks in the end of your bars, we’re euro roadies now…

And as a status piece. People like to signal.

I would wear the mtb stuff for sure. I’m an old person.

Are you from earth, by the way?
  • 8 1
 @TheR: Of the MTB apparel I own the Rapha shorts etc are the best fitting, have the best pocket placement, and seem to be more durable than Fox, Dharco, etc.
  • 4 1
 @TheR: The quality is high and the fit is good. I bought the trail shirts for like $25 each so they weren't expensive. I think I bought the trail shorts for like $70 each.
  • 5 0
 @owl-X: Am I from earth? WTF does that mean?

But I appreciate your input here.
  • 2 1
 @TheR: It is a status symbol especially for road bikers in Asia.
  • 5 1
 @TheR: Yes, Rapha is very high quality. I have many, might I say too many, clothes from various brands. And Rapha is by far the most well made, next to NF and Kitsbow (RIP). Like others, my average TLD and Fox kits tend to tear up quite quickly. The only items that seem to last so far is the Rapha. Though, i'm not a small guy, and Rapha tends to be cut with the slim fit in mind. I wear a L/XL in other brands, i'm XXL in Rapha (LOL).
  • 6 0
 Will pay good money for a new iteration of the Saint groupo (and I'm sure others). It's been 10 years Shimano- give use what we want.
  • 11 1
 but do you need it? What would the Upgrade be? If its not broken dont fix it, I know thats not the MTB way but it seems to be shimano's success way.
  • 9 2
 Hate on Rapha all you want but they make some amazing gear.
  • 9 0
 I just thought we all agreed not to say it out loud…
  • 3 0
 Thule & Garmin may have their numbers delayed. Many people may have bought a bike but were maybe not yet interested in buying an expensive bikerack or gps, or could afford to do so only a year or two later (well that's what hapened for me back then).
  • 18 13
 Shimano needs to get their act together and release 12-speed wireless shifting for SLX-XTR group sets.
  • 3 4
 No shit… why is this taking so long?? When was AXS released? I wonder if there are now significant SRAM patents to work around?
  • 9 0
 Yeah they have been just giving away their market dominance by their lack of response or innovation. That said I finally pulled all the SRAM stuff off my bike and went back to Shimano. However it would have been nice to not buy a going on 4yr old groupset (it was cheap though). SRAM have released V2 eagle, AXS and now Transmission in that time. Shimano have released Linkglide and XT Di2... for e-bikes. Has anyone even seem them though?
  • 7 0
 Trying to understand. 12 speed wireless shifting already exists from another company and has for several years. Is having it from Shimano that important?
  • 5 0
 @OvaltineJenkins: sometimes bikes are only available with Shimano, perhaps you have multiple wheel sets with Shimano micro spline, ....
  • 8 7
 @OvaltineJenkins: the ergonomics of shimanos di2 shifters alone are worth it vs AXS.
  • 8 9
 @OvaltineJenkins: because some of us have big feet that bump SRAM derailleurs. Shimano's are much lower profile for heel clearance and rock clearance.
  • 26 24
 Its incredibly sad to see the wireless shifting gimmick being adopted this hard in MTB world. I remember when it first came out, people rightfully so were like "why", and now, literally nothing has changed and its seen as defacto better.

You can buy 5 sets of cassette/shifter/derailleur from Microshift for the price of Sram GX AXS derailleur and shifter and cassette and it will shift better than any 12 speed because its 10 speed and less sensitive to indexing errors. Not only that, its faster because it doesn't have pauses between gears.

Not to mention that shifting is the absolute worse bang/buck for improving ride quality, compared to pretty much every other piece on the bike.

Wireless shifting has its place on TT bikes where you wanna shift from multiple positions, but thats where the usefullness ends.
  • 11 6
 @KickFlipABike: I love my gx axs, never want a cable again. Bzzt bzzt bzzt, I’m 1000 miles on and it’s been flawless. Pushing a lever—five levers, you say?—ain’t it.

I guess this difference is just another thing that makes us unique and interesting people.
  • 13 18
flag KickFlipABike (Nov 20, 2023 at 13:31) (Below Threshold)
 @owl-X: The difference is that you spend money on things other people tell you that you should like, then retroactively through confirmation bias end up liking it. This effect is pretty well known. In college, you can even take classes on how to be good at exploiting this effect to get more revenue for your company, its called Marketing Degree.

My microshift has been flawless as well, and our bikes perform identically.
  • 2 1
 The wireless shifting is on the 11 speed LinkGlide systems. Its actually auto-shifting, if you are on an E-bike. Kindof a cool concept, but IMHO I dont think Shimano is going to put anymore development into 12-speeds.
  • 2 1
 I believe it is because of patents on the battery being mounted to the derailleur. Bikes would need a place to put a Shimano battery inside the frame.
  • 21 6
 @KickFlipABike: damn! I thought I liked it, I really did. Thank you for setting me straight, I’m quite embarrassed.

Should I leave my wife? And are Nilla Wafers really my favorite? Can you come over and Kondo my closet?—I realize now, from your instruction, that I truly cannot determine for myself what sparks joy.
Bubba Sparks. Do I like him?
Dude I am f*cked!
  • 7 1
 Can we just have cable drivetrains that don't start at £1000 and go up from there? People complain about the pricing of bikes, then ask for AXS to be bolted to it.
  • 1 0
 @KickFlipABike: Ten Fricken Speeds!
  • 14 0
 @Gibbersticks: Is there anything wrong with the (4 year old) Shimano groupset you bought?
Its this idea that companies always have to be innovating, and making new stuff that both contributes to over consumerism, huge landfills, and companies constantly turning over new product.

Your call to "release new stuff all the time" is part of the reason why we are in the situation we are in....
  • 1 0
  • 10 1
 @mrkkbb: So run AXS with a Shimano cassette if you dont want to buy a wheel set
Or have the freehub swapped

Im not sure I understand your issue here
  • 1 0
 @GTscoob: You think Shimano wireless is going to be a smaller package than Srams?
  • 15 1
 @KickFlipABike: Im gonna disagree with you a bit on this one,
Microshift, doesnt feel anywhere near as precise, or solid as either Sram or Shimano 12spd, but it is indeed cheap.
I run both Shimano and Sram, and neither have issues that I can think of, both systems get loads of miles put on them, and run flawlessly.
the jump in ride quality from say SX to GX (just talking mechanical units) is pretty impressive, and for me, is of much better value than the same money spent on most things.

Have you tried an AXS system, or are you yelling things from your porch at the young people as they drive by?
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: yes, this in theory should work, but the ratios are not quite matched and not sure how the new SRAM chain works with Shimano. The other point is, that Shimano is losing market share by people chasing AXS over Shimano equipped bikes, and SRAM knows this. They know they got the market and price accordingly.
  • 8 0
 @mrkkbb: I have a Shimano 10-51 cassette with an AXS derailleur and it works fine. I use a Shimano chain with it and a Sram chainring. According to Sram my bike should explode but it hasn't yet.
  • 5 0
 @mrkkbb: Youre being silly,
AXS works fine with Shimano, just go and try things for heavens sake.

Sure, SRAM has the market cornered on $2500 drivetrains, that is likely less than 1% of the mtb component marketplace.
  • 3 2
 Shimano USA has XT DI2 rear derailleurs for both 11-speed link-glide and 12-speed Hyperglide+ - We think the reason you haven’t seen this in the USA much yet is you have to have the new EP801 or EP600 motors to use XT DI2 and these motors have just started hitting the market - we think the Autoshift is interesting but hardcore shredders will probably be stoked on “free-shift” that allows shifting without peddling \m/
  • 2 1
 @onawalk: lol, "just go and try things for heavens sake", not everyone has a $1000 to try things out, lol
  • 2 0
 @owl-X: I just put mechanical back on my trail bike, and once I get around to it will go back to mechanical on my XC bike too. It was a failed experiment for me. I don't ride my XC bike much, so it has been fine. But on my trail bike, been nothing but hassle.
  • 5 1
 @mrkkbb: Then you dont have $1000 for Shimano Di2 either, so stop worrying about it, and ride yer bike.

People hoping, wanting, and telling Shimano to do something or the other, and they cant afford, and arent gonna buy it anyway.....
f*ckin hell thats weird.
  • 2 1
 @mrkkbb: You can buy GX AXS upgrade kit for $799 CAD, which is about $13 USD. If it doesnt work, or you dont like it, you could prolly sell it for next to near what you paid for it.

Stop making excuses for not doing or trying things.
  • 3 0
 @JSTootell: Really? I've done thousands of miles on GX and now X01 AXS on my trail bike and quite literally been perfect. Whats been the hassle for you?
  • 5 5
 @kilz: To be honest first gen AXS is a miss : loud a hell as the body itself is moving on large impacts, weak clutch and parallelogram bushings are coming loose most of the time. All of this was fixed on T-Type so SRAM learned with this generation, but I would go GX/X01 mechanical over anything AXS first gen.
  • 1 1
 @onawalk: Realistically I hope so. My size 14 shoes have hit SRAM derailleurs from 9-12 speeds, mechanical and later electronic.

Shimano has always had a more tucked in form factor. They used to call it Shadow+ as a differentiator but now they don't talk about it. Great heel clearance with 11spd Di2, same as 12spd mechanical XT and older.
  • 1 0
 @islandforlife: i dunno, im currently in NZ and shimano is alot cheaper than Sram here, Makes almost no sense buying sram here.
  • 2 9
flag KickFlipABike (Nov 20, 2023 at 21:04) (Below Threshold)
 @onawalk: Yes, I have ridden the new T Type system at a demo. You are correct, the system feels precise. But feel is where the advantages end. My Microshift performs just as precise, even when shifting under load, even if it feels less refined. And that is pretty much all a drivetrain can do. None of this changes your ride in any way, and if you think it does, you are kidding yourself. Before electronic systems, nobody complained about drivetrain performance. There was never a comment like "I would be able to select gears better if I had more precise shifting with a button and a stepper motor driving the derailleur". Getting one of these systems is pretty much just bling - you do you if you like spending money on vanity, but they are ultimately pointless.

That being said, ironically, there are several pretty big issues with the electronic systems, which are embarrassing for the price.

1. The derailleur moves around quite a bit more because lack of cable tension. TRP has a really good system with a second clutch on the b action. The wireless derailleurs desperately need something similar.

2. At least in my limited comparison with my friends bikes versus mine, there isn't really any indication of less wear. Wear seems to happen as a result of power being put down, especially in bigger gears with an offset chainline, rather than shifting.

3. Analog shifters are still faster in multi shifts.

4. Lack of tuning. I have a road bike with archer components wireless shifting (for shifting from 2 places), and that system has way more options. One thing that I really like is ability to tune slight overshift where the servo moves slightly past the position and then back. This not only improves shifting precision and speed, but it also helps maintain accuracy for older cassettes.

So yea, jokes on you if you bough one of these. Should have spent that money on a dirt jumper instead.
  • 2 3
 @JockoJones: And? 10 speeds is WAY better than 11 or 12. You have wider spacing between cogs, which means way more margin for indexing error which means crispy clean shifts.

Ive ran the Microshift system with a 1000 watt mid drive, and it shifted flawlessly.
  • 3 0
 @GTscoob: how long are your cranks?!
  • 1 0
 I dunno if Shimano should go wireless or not for their MTB groupset but if in doing so will help it to stay competitive with Sram go ahead but what I really hope for this wireless competition will not drive the manual groupsets out of the market later in the future.
  • 2 0
 @boozed: 180mm because it's proportional to an average height rider running short cranks.
  • 2 0
 @dustyvoid: realistically I'm sure it'll end up like modern road /gravel Di2 with a wired derailleur and wireless shifter.
  • 4 1
 @KickFlipABike: Ah, so youve spent all of an hour or two on the system, to justify your own confirmation bias. Its interesting to see how we all can be so blind to experience outside info, even when we are aware of our own biases.

I'm stoked you like your Microshift, and glad it works for you. Its not for me, I find it a bit vague, and a bit clunky, but thats the great thing about choice, is that we can all run the things we prefer.

I dont run AXS, I have GX on one bike, XT on the other, They both have their pros and cons, I prefer the GX.
I've been riding and racing mtb since 8spd, and for me the current 12spd is pretty friggin incredible. Its essentially flawless for me, both systems run great, require little to no maintenance, and are quiet to almost silent. the little ticks of the chain being picked up drive me a little crazy when grinding my way up, and Microshift seems much more noisy to me.

I had no issue with AXS in terms of tuning, shifting performance, noise, anything, I entirely understand why some love it, but cant figure out why others dont, outside of speed of shifts, which, ill be honest, im not sure it was an issue.

In my mind, we all ride differently, in different places, with different styles, on different bikes, and what works for me, might not be your cup of tea, but it doesnt mean that its not a great solution for me. you get that right?
  • 1 1
 @GTscoob: There’s your problem. Get yourself some 165s and lift your saddle.
  • 4 0
 @rick26: Again, ive done probably close to 5,000 miles on first gen GX/X01 AXS and its been literally perfect. Zero issues with anything.
  • 2 0
 @Baller7756: no. That's like you running 130mm cranks and tiptoeing up the trail.
  • 1 0
 but most of us only need wide range and robust 10 speed with *gasp* cables. At least there are workarounds.
  • 3 3
 @kilz: I have about 3500 miles between the GX and XX1 on my two bikes.

Dead batteries

I showed up to a race with a dead battery. After driving 1000 miles, I arrive with a dead battery. Luckily I arrived the l night before and checked out everything once more before going to bed, but that would have sucked at a 100 mile race.

I have drained a battery multiple times. I just don't have that problem with mechanical shifting. No, I don't want to buy spare batteries to carry with me, hoping they have a charge, hoping I don't forget them. Pull cables just work. Oh, and the low battery warning that I thought was like a 25% battery warning was only about a 30 minute warning.

I have multiple times found my battery charger with a red light, did the battery charge? I don't know. Should I sit in the parking lot and extra hour to charge just in case? Sigh...I just want to ride. Guess I'll eat first.

Shifter battery. Was out traveling and pretty far from any stores, and the shifter battery died. I thought they were good for a year or two? Nope, they aren't. Luckily I had both of my bikes (I normally carry spare batteries, but must have forgot to pack them) and I swapped batteries between the two bikes.

Now, some of those battery incidents could be labeled "user error", but when you are told that you'll get years out of a battery, or days out of the other, and find those not to be true, you get upset.

I have gone through more derailleur hangers in the past year than I have in the preceding 4 years, on the same bike. While I can't prove that to be the derailleur, it is a crazy coincidence and maybe that breakaway clutch doesn't work as well as described.

The GX unit quit working recently. Started out with rejected shifts. It would upshift, then shift back down. No idea why, and randomly. No troubleshooting info was available. Then it acted like a dead battery, when I thought I fully charged it. I turn around and let my GF go ride solo, and put it on the charger and snack. I look at the charger when she comes back after a short lap and the battery is green. Go back out again, and same thing 10 minutes later. I go back again, letting her do another solo lap, and see if I can figure out anything. Clean all the battery contacts, inspect for damage, can't find anything wrong. Try to ride it again... nothing. Just nothing at all.

I bought a new X01 mechanical shifter (I broke the old one, and the reason I decided to try AXS on that bike), new cables, and the old X01 derailleur and all is good again. Not having to worry about a dead battery, or "oh, a firmware update", or anything else is so much better for me. I can toss an emergency spare cable in the SWAT box, but I'll never need it. I. Over 100,000 miles of riding I have only ever broken a shift cable from neglect (well, and Shimano's poor road design), and with exception of those Dura Ace problems, only when I was a newer rider.

I obviously really wanted to like these. I bought two sets. The XX1 set wasn't at a discount either (GX was). I didn't like the XTR feel so went with the AXS. It works...fine. Nothing mind blowing, just fine. Literally the only two pros can can think of is:
-My thumb is less tired.
-Garmin beeping at me letting me know I'm at the end of the cassette. Which is kinda nice when you are sprinting for a big gap jump, and it only beeps when you are IN the last cog, unlike Di2...

So I'm back on mechanical, and I'm happier for it. I'm really upset that no one wants a decent mechanical system on modern aero road bikes. I went with Di2 and am also let down by it, but there is no modern mechanical top tier group anymore. If I could have mechanical Red or Dura Ace, I would rather have that. But it's either a lower tiered bike, which I'm not interested, or electronic. And I'm hoping long term I can get over it. But so far, I like Dura Ace Di2 less than AXS. Mechanical 2x12 speed Dura Ace would have been perfect. 2x11 on my old bike was mostly good (I just had to stay on top of cable replacements, which is easy).
  • 4 0
 @Baller7756: I know short cranks are all the rage, but they don't work for everyone. I have knee pain with anything shorter than 170, and even then am more comfortable with 175. I never experimented with longer. 165's are a no go for me.
  • 4 2
 @milanboez: none of us need any of this shit.
I get a little endorphin boost every time I hear that bzzt bzzt bzzt of my axs…the memories of hours of fiddling with cables over my life…those fade with every perfect shift.
I smoked a UDH a couple weeks ago—felt my derailleur banging around my leg and pulled to a stop. Wasn’t carrying a spare but luckily i was only about a quarter mile from an east exit to the car for repair. Popped the chain off and shoved it and the derailleur in my jacket pocket as I balance biked to the tools. Inadvertently/ instinctively hit a shift and heard the bzzt from within my pocket—I squealed with delight in the forest!
Believe that I hit about ten more shifts as I coasted down to the lot. Pure joy.
Love that little motor. Keep yer steampunk cables, but but know I’m not stocking spares. I got cr2032s and AXS batteries and rotor magnets and tubes and even a DH casing dhr…but cables are over there with the 26” tires.
  • 1 0
 @JSTootell: Interesting, sounds like a lot of bad luck tbh. And the dead battery after driving 1,000 miles is pretty predictable, its why they say to take the battery out if you are driving long distances since any jarring "wakes" the system up.
  • 1 1

If you want to compare other analog drivetrains to microshift, its pretty clear that there are differences. For hilly terrain, having 50 or 52 dinner plates in the rear makes pedaling easier. If you want to spend more money on those, thats fine. Microshift works just fine btw. Martha Gill runs it, and has no issues with it.

My main complaint with AXS justification that electronic shifting is better, and justifies the MASSIVE price difference over analog shifting. Objectively, without any sort mention of feel or whatever else, its not. If you would rather spend money on feel on an objectively worse system, then thats your call.
  • 1 0
 @mrkkbb: they 100% work together. I have been running a GX derailleur with an xt shifter, slx cassette and Shimano chain for 18 months now with zero issues. I was building a bike during the covid shortages and that's all my local shop could get. I was sceptical at first but the mechanic/mate assured me it works (he'd been running a similar set up for a while. Saying that if/when I break the derailleur I'll replace it with a Shimano one
  • 3 1
 @KickFlipABike: hey I just ordered a dozen more AXS derailleurs. Gonna hook them all up to a midi controller and program them to play songs like the hard drive symphonies I’ve seen on YouTube.

Just checking to see if that’s okay.
  • 1 0
 @onawalk: My call? News to me. No there is nothing wrong with my XT groupo and yes it is way better than the XO it replaces.
  • 2 0
 @owl-X: those wee XT M8000 derailleurs are nicely tucked away compared to anything 12 speed
  • 3 0
 @KickFlipABike: I guess the point is, it really doesnt matter what you think.
No one needs your permission to enjoy, covet, purchase, or own any of these things. Your permission that I can use a 50 or 52 tooth cassette is pretty funny, why on earth do you care?

You gotta understand, just cause itsnot for you, doesnt at mean its a "worse system" its just not for you.
I will never understand peoples push back on anything that isnt what they approve of, whether its wheel size, pedal type, or AXS shifting. Just be thankful theres cool stuff out there, cause it means theres cool stuff for you as well...
  • 1 0
 @Gibbersticks: Yeah, your comment stating that Shimano is giving away market dominance by not innovating or bringing things to market, then going on to say it would have been nice to not have to buy a 4 yr old groupset (assuming you mean design, not actual time in service)

Why do you prefer the XT to the XO groupset?
  • 2 0
 @onawalk: yes I was referring to the design being 4yrs old. The XO and I just never really got along. It constantly would come out of adjustment (b-tension) and I ended up putting loctite on the bolts to prevent this. I hated the single click for downshifts and the cost of the cassette and chain is just stupid. My first ride back on XT was just so good I could not help but mutter “f*ck SRAM”
  • 3 0
 @Gibbersticks: So what was the issue with the XT being a 4 yr old design?

I run both systems, I'm always surprised at how vehemently some seem to like one over the other. Both my GX, and XT have been flawless, with no issues to speak of either way. the 2 downshifts on XT is a cool, but I prefer the lighter action, and more defined clicks of the GX.

I'll happily ride either
  • 5 0
 Just bought a $25 Champion packable wind jacket for morning rides. Maybe next year I'll consider Rapha Wink
  • 5 0
 Garmin: If you're not measuring numbers for 180 years in the future, you're not cool.
  • 10 6
 Ralpha is a yuppie douche brand that charges 0ver 200 bucks for a polyester shirt, how do the not make any cash?
  • 10 0
 @trashpander275: Hookers and blow?
  • 2 1
 I can't imagine the markup that likely exists on Rapha. I worked in the Outdoor Clothing Industry for a period and remember the first time I saw cost vs. msrp for Arcteryx and I about shit myself. $500 products that cost $5 to manufacture. With 6 years of net losses, kind of nuts that Rapha continues to try to sell shit at the prices they do, but I guess that's the brand. Wouldn't want the poors repping Rapha at the local CX race.
  • 4 0
 Leatt was very good with the Fit and wear this year.
  • 1 0
 Yeah but their UK distributor CRC was selling products cheaper than is cost the distributors to buy them! That is why many distributors gave them the finger for this season.
  • 1 1
 I'm in a business that got shelled during Covid. We couldn't keep up, and had to turn buyers away. We're still in business, can someone explain to me how businesses that sold everything they had (I couldn't find a bike on the shelves for nearly two years) can't stay in business now?

We did.
  • 2 0
 What business are you in? The thing is is every single thing in the Bike industry has always been on credit so now that they have all this inventory and can’t sell, they can’t pay the credit back which means they go out of business.
  • 2 0
 I was hoping for Yeti cycles to buy guerrilla gravity then move production into guerrilla gravity warehouse make both in America
  • 1 0
 I am just happy I got my new bike 3000 bucks off MSRP Big Grin And some downhill tires for 9 bucks each at LBS sale. On the other hand, selling my previous bike is no bueno these days
  • 3 0
 As sad as it is, I don't see Rapha surviving.
  • 2 0
 Rapha is owned by two of the Walton grandchildren. I'm pretty sure they can afford to lose a couple million a year in perpetuity. Cycling is a hobby to them not necessarily their breadwinning. They did build the "mountain bike capital" to make money.
  • 6 4
 Gosh. I’m so sad that Rapha sales are down. Major bummer and surprise that $350 basic pants aren’t selling well…
  • 1 1
 lifetime makes money from vendors vendors up marketing budgets when market slows down so yeah that is a sign of how bad it is.
  • 2 0 what cycling companies are people investing in, if any?
  • 2 0
 Merida industry co. as people look to buy budget/value, Merida with specialized in its corner is going to hammer home some lessons.
I fully expect to see them Back around $250TWD value.
  • 2 4
 Pinkbike should not be a trade mag. We are not in for it
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