Review: The DT Swiss EXC 1200 Spline Enduro Wheelset Might Be Too Light

Feb 14, 2020
by Dan Roberts  


DT Swiss's EXC 1200 wheels are aimed squarely at enduro riding and racing, with DT Swiss calling on its enduro racers' experience and input so that they can make a wheel fit enough for them while still being class leading in weight for people wanting to take it on long rides.

The discreet wheels definitely hide a lot of their development quietly behind their understated exterior. But their claims to give peace of mind on the downhills and enough breath for a chat on the way up needed thorough testing.

Over the course of the summer, autumn and unusually dry winter we've been riding the hell out of them to see if their intentions on paper can be backed up on the real world down and uphills.

EXC 1200 Spline Details

Intended use: enduro
Wheel size: 27.5" and 29" (tested)
Axle & hub width: 15x110mm & 12x148mm
Rotor mount: Center Lock
Rim inner width: 30mm (29") & 35mm (27.5")
Weight (actual): 1697 grams (29")
Price: 2198 EUR or $2,735 USD
More info: DT Swiss

DT Swiss's top tier 180 hubs are at the centre of the wheels.
It has their new Ratchet EXP system inside.


Details & Features

We took a more in-depth look at the wheels in our First Look. But here's a run-down of the details and features.

Starting at the centre of the system, the EXC 1200 wheels run on DT Swiss’s new 180 hubs with SINC ceramic bearings. Their updated Ratchet EXP freehub has options for SRAM’s XD or Shimano’s Microspline included, while you can purchase a standard Shimano freehub if needed.

28 Aerolite and Aero Comp bladed spokes link the hub to the rim in a 3-cross pattern. All the spokes, left and right, front and rear are 300mm long for the 29er version. So really only one type of spare spoke in your toolbox should be enough to keep you rolling if you encounter problems or damage.

Squorx nipples tie the spokes to the rim and DT Swiss build to the max possible spoke tension. It’s the individual engineering in the system pieces that add up to give them their desired level of flex and spring characteristics.

The carbon rims are pretty tastefully decorated.
Both front and rear use bladed spoke, all of the same length.

The rim is made from carbon fiber and features a hookless profile. There’s a 30mm inner width for the 29” wheels tested. The wheelset also comes in 27.5” with a 35mm inner width. DT don’t give out much information regarding the rim’s layup, fibers and resin, although they do say that they worked to find a resin that didn’t cause any galvanic corrosion between the composite rim and aluminium nipples.

Our tested 29” wheelset came in at 1697g for the pair taped up, with valves and XD freehub.



Installation & Setup

As the wheels come pre-taped and with the tubeless valves installed, all that’s left to do is mount the rotors, cassette and tires. Tool free end caps and freehub make freehub swaps and maintenance a doddle. And the fit is snug enough that even hefty cassettes don’t pop off the end caps and end up on the floor.

The hubs are center lock-only and use adaptors to bridge the gap to 6-bolt rotors. The familiar Shimano BB tool interface is used to tighten the center lock nut.

Tire installation is easy as it appears DT Swiss pay attention to the different bead diameters possible with different brands of tires and make sure their rim shapes allow easy installation while still providing a strong hold on the tires while riding hard.

Maxxis tires seated with a floor pump every time. Schwalbe tires would seat just as fine with a brand-new tire, but after a few rides and swaps sometimes the help of a compressor was needed.





Photo Ga tan Rey

Performance

DT Swiss’s claim for the EXC 1200 wheels is to be tough enough for everything the best in the sport can throw at them with the rim’s carbon structure being optimized for impact resistance. With that in mind I didn’t give the wheels an easy life. Their arrival was smack bang in the middle of the bike park season, giving me endless options to accrue copious amounts of descending time on the wheels.

Lots of people still have only the one bike and ride everything on it from all day pedals to days doing laps. And wheels aimed at enduro racing should be good for using in all terrains and eventualities that a 170mm travel bike can get into.

I of course tested them outside of the bike parks. While this region of Europe is often seen as just a mass of bike parks, there are ten-fold more riding spots dotted up every mountain that can serve up any manner of riding terrain and with the mountain weather, any condition too.


Dan Roberts // Technical Editor
Age: 33
Location: Champéry, Switzerland
Height: 188cm (6'2”)
Weight: 75kg (165 lbs)
Industry affiliations / sponsors: Garage Bike Project, former engineer at Scott Sports
Instagram: @le_crusher
Test Locations: Champéry, Morgins, Bex, Leysin, Aosta, La Thuile, Val-d'Isère, Tignes, Thonon-les-Bains, Finale Ligure & Wales.

The ultra-low weight of the wheelset is definitely noticeable. It may not be front and center in the riding experience for everyone, but the ability to get the wheels up to speed and also moving the whole bike around was perceivably better than with heavier all aluminum options mounted to the same bike.

Photo Ga tan Rey

On straight, fast and rough sections of trail the wheels are devoid of any wild deflecting sensations as they either hit impacts square on or glance off the side of them. There too is neither a feeling that the wheel is magically finding its own path like the dancing hands of a French DH racer visualising his upcoming run. There’s enough of a directness to them to make it you who is in control of their direction while balancing that with enough energy absorption to stop them pinging any which way but the way you want.

In high G-force turning situations and compared back to the other 28 spoke aluminum wheels previously ridden they have a much more predictable feeling. No loading up and sudden releases of force ever occurred. A more gradual and progressive build and return of force lead the wheels to somewhat blending away and just going about their job. In the vert berms of Champéry and Morgins they never once gave that sudden release feeling despite the best efforts to take inside lines on the biggest turns and slap the last remaining feet of the wall shaped berm. Nor too did they show that trait in steep loamy turns the can almost fold you up into a small package on your bars.

Photo Ga tan Rey

In off-camber situations, where the wheels are constantly being bent and twisted from weird bike and body angles, they exhibited neither a too harsh nor too soft ride, enabling you to claw onto every last bit of grip while you cut across cambers. The wheels constantly felt like a very good balance of comfort and control in all situations I put them into.

The 36-tooth ratchet in the 180 rear hub was bang on. I wasn’t left asking for more engagement on technical climbs or anywhere for that matter. There is a 54-tooth available if that’s your thing, but more points of engagement do up the possibilities for pedal kickback to be a more prevalent feeling in your riding.

I come back to that idea of a good product just going about its job quietly in the background. The EXC 1200 wheelset did exactly this, until they didn’t. Read on.



Servicing

With the tool free end cap and freehub system cleaning and re-greasing the freehub system is a simple job, although cleaning the half of the ratchet system which is now fixed in the hub is a little trickier. But that’s nit picking. It’s advised to use the specific DT Swiss grease for the ratchet system but the small pot that is sold separately will probably last a lifetime for one person.

After six and a half months of testing the bearings are still running smoothly with riding in all conditions from bone dry and dusty to some of the most relentless Welsh mud that gets into places no other mud can. SINC bearings aren’t cheap to replace when they do wear out, but then neither is the wheelset.

There has been no need re-tension or true the wheels throughout the testing period. Sometimes with fresh wheels there will be a familiar ting noise generated when the wheel is properly loaded with a rider for the first time as all the components of the wheel find their final resting place. It usually then requires a round of re-tensioning and truing, but the fact this was never needed hints to DT Swiss’s skills in the wheel building. Although, with 28 spokes each spoke covers a greater segment of the rim when compared to 32 spokes, so when it comes to truing it can be a little harder to get the tensions balanced while having the wheel bang on straight.



Durability


By far the biggest issue we experienced was with the rim. After seven weeks of rigorous testing we were riding in Morgins, Switzerland, a bike park with its high speed, high G-force descents full of interesting rises and falls, some of which can be gapped with a good dose of speed and pull. Upon landing one of these natural gaps we encountered a sound as if someone had fired a gun. Looking down after rolling to a stop the tire was completely off and the rim showed serious signs of a failure. This particular gap in Morgins has claimed some other carbon fiber wheels from other big manufacturers.

Trying not to speculate if a different material would have suffered the same fate, the only thing that can be said is that the amount of energy needed to do this to the wheel and make that amount of noise was not matching the feeling from riding.

Upon further inspection the rim had completely failed all the way through and had essentially shunted the two sides of the failure back together with such force that they were inseparable. The rim was now quite a few millimeters smaller in diameter and as a result all spokes were completely de-tensioned.

We went back to DT Swiss with the failed wheel for them to take a closer look at and see if they could find more answers. We also picked up a replacement rear wheel to continue the testing. Since then we’ve had another three and a half months of testing and the wheels are still going strong, exhibiting the same level of performance that we were encountering before we had our rim issue.

Testing was carried out exclusively with DH casing tires, so no flimsy sidewall business to make the rim’s encounter the ground more often. It’s hard to definitively say if a tire insert would have helped, but something like Cushcore would for sure have helped dissipate some of the energy.

DT Swiss could only suggest that perhaps the failure had come about from a smaller, less visible failure being subjected to the force of the landing. Somewhat a case of right place right timing but a disappointing situation nonetheless.



Other Issues


After the second day of testing we had some noisy spokes. With the brake on and rocking the bike back and forth the flat bladed spokes would rub against each other where they cross. The resulting noise wasn’t the most confidence inspiring when you’re anchoring up hard down a track, as it was audible while riding. It would disappear after washing the bike only to reappear once the bike was dry and especially when covered in dust.

The original plastic valve nut strips the thread easily.

The plastic valve nut is super light, but not the most robust. The plastic threads are very easy to strip and so was swapped out for the aluminum nut found on other DT Swiss tubeless valves. The aluminum version with its accompanying o-ring seal has worked flawlessly without damaging the rim where it contacts it.

The center lock nuts of previous DT Swiss wheels would tighten directly against the disc rotor. After DT experienced some cases where the nut would loosen, they now include a ridged metallic spacer to go between the nut and disc to aid in the amount of locking of the system. However, with this spacer installed the nut stuck out far enough that it would hit the fork leg, meaning the wheel wouldn’t spin without chewing a chunk out of the fork leg. This was with a Hope 6 bolt floating rotor and Öhlins RXF36 m.2 fork. Perhaps with other combinations this wouldn’t be a problem, but we couldn’t try out every eventuality. For the entire test I ran without the additional spacer and have experienced no issues with the center lock nut coming loose.



DT Swiss's Response


bigquotesThank you for the opportunity to comment on your recent experience with our new EXC 1200 and we are sorry for any inconvenience we have caused you.

Based on your report, we have carefully examined the damaged wheel and could not find any abnormality in the carbon layout. As you know, such abnormalities could indicate possible deviations within the manufacturing process, but in our examination, we did not find any such concerns.

During the R&D phase DT Swiss invests a lot of time in intense riding and lab tests in order to meet our demands and expectations. Always having the required field of application in mind, we developed a competitive wheel for its ASTM classification. But not every situation on the trail can be reproduced in the lab or simulated in the field, even though our investments in our process does greatly reduce such potential concerns.

We strive to make our products as reliable as possible. For us development is an ongoing process and in order to continuously improve our products, we take feedback seriously and incorporate it in our development process, which we will endeavor to do based on the information received in your report.

As riders we know what it means not being able to do what you love most. With our DT Swiss Service Centers, we handle issues like yours in the same way as we did with you. We would like to see our customers back on the bike as soon as possible, therefore we handle carbon claims in a very accommodating way. Simultaneously we are working on a long-term solution which is fair for all parties – for our customers, dealers, distributors, and finally also the environment. Detailed information will be communicated within this year.
Friso Lorscheider, DT Swiss MTB Marketing Manager






Pros

+ Great ride feeling - comfortable & controlled.
+ A good chunk lighter than the competition.
+ Brilliantly reliable & serviceable hubs.
Cons

- Rim had a catastrophic failure.
- Noisy spokes under hard braking.
- Not inexpensive. At all.






Pinkbike's Take
bigquotesIt’s a shame that the EXC 1200 rim suffered a failure while testing. The wheels are incredibly light, their ride feel is a brilliant balance of comfort and control, and they have some of the most reliable and serviceable hubs at their center.

The replacement rim has held up well, so assuming our failure was an outlier, the wheels could be a lightweight option for people who don’t frequent full on downhill tracks and have a smoother, lighter style on the bike. But with their intended purpose firmly aimed at enduro racing and aggressive riding, it becomes harder to recommend the EXC 1200 wheelset to hard-charging riders, especially given its premium price.
Dan Roberts








Action photos by: Gaëtan Rey


307 Comments

  • 448 11
 "Upon further inspection the rim had completely failed all the way through and had essentially shunted the two sides of the failure back together with such force that they were inseparable. The rim was now quite a few millimeters smaller in diameter..."

...This was the rim telling you it wanted to be released back into it's natural 26" habitat
  • 22 14
 Can't upvote this enough. You won the day
  • 54 14
 This is also Dan's last review on PB....
  • 48 5
 @headshot: it definitely is not.
  • 40 1
 @brianpark: Thought it was one of the better written wheel reviews I've read in a while. Can't always make them exciting, but the insights into how the wheels handled specific trail features and soil conditions were relatable and useful. The issues were similarly detailed.
  • 1 0
 @gemma8788: could not agree more!
  • 9 3
 @brianpark: only kidding of course. Great review. But he did break a major manufacturers wheel and write about it so get him a guard so he doesn't get disappeared...
  • 1 0
 Wagon wheels are straight shouting to you "WE'RE GONNA KILL YA!!!"
  • 6 0
 Take the wheel back to same gap and do it 20 times.
  • 9 0
 It's kind of funny because this is not a wheel for a trail park, they say so at the start of the review, and then they manage to destroy it in "a bike park with its high speed, high G-force descents". I own a set of DT Swiss Spline XMC since 2015. It is the first generation that is even lighter and it serves perfectly for what it is designed for.
  • 2 0
 @gemma8788: agreed. In particular I had never thought about the potential consequence of higher POE hubs on pedal kickback. I presume interference could be experienced if the hubs weren’t properly maintained.
  • 1 0
 @duzzi: I to have a set of XMC 1200’s and I love how they feel and have had zero issues despite hitting some enduro worthy decents and jumping off everything in sight! I love em!
  • 1 0
 @duzzi:
Obviously you haven’t raced an Enduro in the US, where nearly all of them are based at bike parks.
  • 271 12
 Perfect wheelset for my Pole Stamina
  • 68 3
 Or Slayer?
  • 1 9
flag Artikay13 (Feb 14, 2020 at 14:11) (Below Threshold)
 @Staktup: nah stamina
  • 2 2
 Whats it gona be boy stay or wheel.
  • 4 1
 The snapping rim can break your fall as the prototype chain stay folds over on itself
  • 3 3
 @mkotowski1: Carbon for the win Not , and bladed spokes to add to the misery, they windup and you have to hold them when truing, don't see any benefit for Mtb's.
But DT make some really great stuff.
  • 7 0
 @lake-st: round spokes have wind-up, too. You just don’t see it, and there’s nothing you can do to prevent it.
  • 126 2
 Obviously it's best if parts don't fail, but at least DT was classy and non-evasive about it.

If I had to choose between a part that occasionally fails - within reason, of course - from a company that will sort it out or a part that fails slightly less often from a company that will dodge the warranty claim, I'd probably pick the former as the lesser of two evils.

That said, it's reasonable to expect perfect performance and unquestioning product support at US$2,735 because we could buy an equally light wheelset from an Asian factory and four spare rims for that price.
  • 43 5
 DT Swiss is a company that doesn't know how to build things poorly. They do things right, and in a quiet and understated way. I have a ton of respect for them and use many of their products. That said, their stuff ain't cheap...and often pretty proprietary too. Smart money says to pay up for the hubs and spokes but go elsewhere for the rims...since it appears that DT rims can break just like anyone else's...might as well spend your money where it counts and save a pile in the process. You could buy those 180's and spokes, then two sets of LB rims and still have a huge chunk leftover. The build would definitely be a bit heavier, but the cost savings more than offsets that.
  • 8 3
 Yeah nothings indestructible (incidentally, I killed the dt 350 star ratchet rear hub after 35 miles on the new bike) but its how the company deals with it that counts. As it is I'm on a completely new wheel with zero faults 350 miles later. Dt swiss couldn't work out what went wrong, pretty much just agreed with the 'it's crapped the bed' line I used when taking it back to the shop, and just replaced the whole thing. Everyone I've spoken to about it was surprised a dt star ratchet hub went wrong, but I won't say anything other than it must have been an outlier.
  • 14 3
 @TheRaven: You're mostly correct, except for one thing: the weight of the rims: DT's aren't light. If you subtract the weight of each component and allow 20 g per wheel for rim tape and valve, we're looking at maybe 535 g per rim.

A Light Bicycle Recon Pro rim with 30 mm internal width is listed at 440 g ± 15 g, so it's possible the Light Bicycle equivalent could be almost 200 g lighter per pair. I haven't tested the LB rims, but I do know LB's Recon Pro series is rather nice and DT's rims broke, so things are looking good for the Light Bicycle option.
  • 12 1
 I read the description of the failure like the author cased a few jumps- would love to see some follow cam video of that failure and some of the leaps up to it. Casing on a lip creates a lot of force in a small area. Seemed like the wheels were super solid up until that point.
  • 10 0
 @brappjuice: Agree. Posting a review with a failure can be highly detrimental to a company, so it seems only fair to document the failure as well as possible. Even if the failure wasn't captured on video, at least repeat the situation for the article and with other products.
  • 18 0
 That was definitely a proper and classy response from DT. Thrashing a lightweight Enduro wheelset will eventually kill even the best of them, and then you're at the mercy of the manufacturers Customer Service. I've heard nothing but positives about dealing with DT Swiss so I wouldn't hesitate to buy their wheels.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: agreed, they r not light. Running rovals 29 which are 1770g, 30mm inner width. Im 95kg (1.9m) and riding them as AM/EN/Trail (Read everywhere Smile Still running great and they are 24/28 spokes! Destroyed carbon test wheels after 30 min of riding. The price/performance (read durability for carbon wheels is totally off...
  • 1 1
 @inked-up-metalhead: bad heat treat my guess. Saw this happen with a few chainsaw spir sprokets recently. just sheered teeth off. a bad heat treat can make or brake a product
  • 4 2
 @brappjuice: If an wheel fails from a casual casing of a root lip... and those wheels cost $2,735 and were marketed as "Enduro" wheels... something is wrong.

Most products are "super solid" until they fail... then they're not anymore.
  • 4 0
 @islandforlife: I agree with you, but we should be as fair as possible. It could've been a more serious impact than Dan thought. Maybe it felt a bit mild because the rim broke and softened the impact, but it was actually a severe hit. Or maybe it was a minor impact and the rim is weak. Can't be absolutely certain it was "a casual casing".

Obviously, a failure makes it more likely the rim is weak than if it hadn't failed, though Dan notes he's broken other rims, so maybe his riding and/or terrain is especially hard on rims. I'm just saying we should ensure we don't draw conclusions beyond what the evidence supports.
  • 1 4
 @islandforlife: yeah I have seen too many of these DTSwiss 1200 rims fail, No way in hell would I be parting with that cash, with 8-10 week waits on replacements in Aus, no way
  • 1 0
 @onelivinlarge: on what? There was no damage to the ratchet rings, or the springs, or anything visibly. My best guess is the interface between what the ratchet ring splines into and the hub shell gave out. Again, I'm putting it down to shit luck, not a poor product.
  • 13 0
 @aushred: Where have you seen "too many" of these DTSwiss 1200 rims fail? Just curious, cause I've only ever saw one person riding 1200's, LOTS of 1900's, 1700's, some 1500's, but the 1200's don't seem to prevalent in the wild?
  • 3 4
 I was suprised they considered 1700 gr light. My Nobl TR-36 with 32 hole Torch hubs, Sapim Race spokes rear and D-light front are 1690 with valves and tape. Granted, mine are 2 cross, but still. I've always thought that was average for a burly trail/enduro wheelset. Been on them for 4 years, in Arizona, and I'm 220 lbs. I really cant figure out (besides maybe weight) why anyone would buy a $2400 wheelset when Reserves and WAO exist.
  • 2 3
 @MikeAzBS: You're absolutely right. For the price of this wheelset, a person could build a set barely over 1200 g:

Front hub: Extralite
Rear hub: DT 180 or Extralite
Spokes: Berd
Rims: Yishun ASD937TR-GP
  • 4 2
 @R-M-R: that shit breaks.
  • 2 3
 @jha: I've been using Extralite hubs, Berd spokes, and Race Face rims for over a year without problem. Two of my friends have been using Yishun without problem, including one who's a lot larger than most humans. Which of those parts have you broken?
  • 2 0
 @brappjuice: Exactly. Goes into detail about the feature yet not so much as a pic.
  • 10 0
 I'm very much inclined to agree with most of what you wrote. All fair points. I think the most important thing to remember here is that only the naive among purchasers expect vendors to deal in absolutes - and only the naive among vendors do so. Professionals in any field - be it law, medicine, the military, science, financial services - deal in probabilities rather than in certainties. DT Swiss is a truly professional, engineering-based company (as someone with years of high-level tech and fitting experience in the golf industry before cycling, Pivot’s Phoenix-based neighbours at PING come to mind for me as an appropriate analogy). DT Swiss will tell you where these rims fall in the ASTM classification hierarchy, and on the whole their rims are loyal to the scheme in my experience as a wheelbuilder and rider. More riders should be aware of exactly what this hierarchy entails - it's basically a way of ranking rim durability by suggested application, using technical-based standards for stress thresholds - and then plan to diligently observe its recommendations whenever possible. One person or OEM’s enduro-classed rim (ASTM 4) could be another person's hoped-for downhill/freeride rim (ASTM 5). However, this is not to say that Dan did not loyally follow DT's usage guidelines, which he may well have in this thoughtful and systematic wheel review. Ultimately the only DT rim I would feel comfortable unleashing in the wild without virtually any reservations, be it as part of a client's custom wheelbuild or on my personal ride, is the FR560 - and even then with CushCore installed at least in the rear. A number of industry insiders specializing in wheels view the FR series rims as the hoops to end all hoops in terms of all-out strength. Incidentally, the FR560 is classed at ASTM 5 and is all-aluminum. And FR, of course, stands for "Freeride."

Also noteworthy here, as you and others have indicated, is the professionalism with which DT has handled this review. Textbook, really, and they seem to be sincerely focused on applying any lessons learned toward future product development. It's a treat to hear a marketing manager speak with an engineer's technical grasp but a PR person’s business savvy. In the end, an episode like this only strengthens my faith in the DT brand.
  • 2 3
 @stiingya: YT Pro Capra Races coming with them For a year had a bunch of those out here fail, plus a couple mates with Intense primers blew em up
  • 2 0
 @aushred: Not sure which Capras you are talking about, but for the last couple years the wheels on those were e13, not dt swiss. You confusing the rim brand maybe?

edit: last Carbon DT Swiss wheels on Capra were on the older model, 2016 (or 2017 maybe?), but those were XMC1200, their ligher all mountain/trail wheelset and not EXC1200. EXC did not exist yet at that time.
  • 2 0
 I know right, the fact that they don't don't bullshit their way around makes me want to buy the wheels anyway.. except 2700usd is far, far too much money.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: you do realize lb time are much weaker. Most of us wouldn't break xc rims in a bike park.
  • 1 1
 @bankz: Weaker than DT rims, which also broke? Maybe ... maybe not. At least the LB rims are lighter. Then how about We Are One: similar weight, great warranty, probably stronger, and cheaper. The point is that DT could improve their rims and/or their price.
  • 2 0
 Years and years and years ago we had carbon failures - all - the - time....we would then not talk about them at our 'community events' nor at places such as CABDA or Interbike....it was just the nature of the systems. Granted, this was back in the days of Epic/Cadex and the beginnings of "Optimum Cracking Low Value" carbon fiber, and they all had lifetime warranties (good for some of the retail customers).

I do have to wonder if DT would have had a different standpoint if this was some guy from some city JRA who bustified a wheel...I would like to think not.
  • 2 0
 @R-M-R: I did a little hunting and found nearly all the actual verified component weights so I could figure out the rim weights. Flow MTB posted actual wheelset weight of 1697 grams.

DT 180 EXP FR hub: 96.00 gr
DT 180 EXP RR hub: 186.00
28 300mm Aero Comp Spokes 189
28 300mm Aerolite Spokes 138
56 DT Squorx nipples Alu. 22
FR & RR Rim tape & Valves 31
Total 662 grams for components and 1035 for the rims.
517.5 gr +/- 15 seems average for the catagory compared to some other enduro rated rims that seem to have fantastic reputation for strength.

Santa Cruz Reserve 30 490 gr.
We Are One Agent 488 gr.
We Are One Union 495 gr.
  • 1 0
 Slightly lighter than what I came up with from claimed weights. Still, we're left with the facts that the rims are a little heavier than competitors, more expensive than most, and there was a severe failure. The difference is weight isn't huge and perhaps other rims would've failed in the same situation, but that's still either two losses and a tie against the competition or 3 losses.
  • 2 1
 @R-M-R: weight isn't everything. The 180 Hubert alone is what, an $1000 hubset alone? People look at carbon rims and look at the weight alone and decide they suck, which is pretty laughable.
  • 2 1
 @R-M-R: $2700 usd for a carbon wheelset with 180 hubs is actually a steal in the grand scheme of things. I wish pinkbike would let me edit posts on mobile...
  • 2 1
 @clink83:

1. I'm usually the one telling people weight doesn't matter. I make an exception for unsprung mass, but still, I know it's a small component of overall performance. My concern is that DT's rims appear to be a step behind the competition on weight, strength, and cost.

2. It is not a steal. You could build the same wheels with We Are One Union rims, for example, and I believe you would have a better wheelset for less money. Substitute round spokes in place of the bladed spokes and the value is even better with no reduction in performance. There is no reasonable metric of value that favours this wheelset.

For the price of this DT wheelset, you could build a set with Extralite Hyperboost hubs, We Are One Union rims, and Berd fiber spokes. That's very similar to the wheelset I'm using, it's a full pound less than the DT wheels, and the ride quality is even better. Not that weight is everything, of course, but it shows what an exotic wheelset can be built for this price.
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: I would definitely go for something custom at this price range. Oh wait, I do!

@MikeAzBS: Nice detective work on the weights.
  • 2 2
 @R-M-R: And the WAO rims would most likely have poorer layups and ride quality.
I have a pair of Nextie carbon rims laced to DT350s that only weigh about 50g more than the DT wheelset, but I'm not going to claim they are in the class as a top of the line DT wheelset. They are also 22mm internal. You can always build custom wheels for cheaper if you are a careful online shopper, but your nuts if you are getting better quality composites from china or someones garage in canada. Lets be honest, this wheelset is really designed for elite level racers, not pinkbike commenters.
  • 3 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: @inked-up-metalhead: The robust design of the star ratchet makes it very reliable. It's rare to hear of one failing. I would have liked to seen the insides. That said I'm still loving the DT-swiss 350 hub I laced up 3 years ago. Still running strong and smooth.
  • 3 0
 @ricksterjack: the nice thing is that if a star ratchet does fail, it's quick and easy to fix. The DT350 hubs really are a stellar value for average riders.
  • 1 0
 @clink83: I thought DT Swiss has all their carbon manufactured in China/Taiwan?
  • 1 0
 @MikeAzBS: I'm not sure where it's manufactured, but it doesn't really matter. As long as the layup is done right with no voids the engineering and layup is the difference, which DT has the $$ to do.
  • 1 3
 @clink83: "And the WAO rims would most likely have poorer layups and ride quality."

What would make you think this? And what evidence do you have to support this? And what makes the DT rims more suited for elite racers? I don't care what name is on the decal, if the product isn't light, isn't strong, isn't cheap, and has a tall cross-section, what's the redeeming quality?
  • 1 0
 @R-M-R: I agree. I dont have a dog in this race, but it seems like WAO has a pretty legit setup and strong team. They hired the carbon composites specialist from Rolls Royce. Hardly "a Canadian in his garage" They are very transparent about their manufacturing methods. And they are absolutely sourcing higher quality prepreg that any factory in Taiwan or China. Huge R&D budget doesn't guarantee superior product. It usually just means more paperwork and more filters between designers and end users.
  • 1 0
 @clink83: yeah this wasn't. 9 weeks in total before I got the replacement wheel. As I said, I believe it was the little splined bit that the inner ratchet ring splines into, and however its fitted (threaded I think) it stripped out and ruined the hub shell. At least leisure lakes where I got the bike from gave me a courtesy wheel off a demo bike to keep me riding, I'd have been mightily displeased with 9 weeks if I couldn't ride the bike that was 4 days old when the hub went.
  • 2 1
 @R-M-R: because DT swiss is the leading wheel maker in the world and has the money and profits to do the type of R&D that small companies can't. This isn't hating on WAO, my nextie rims are the same boat. They are well made, but I would be lying if I said they rode as well as a high end wheelset. Just like my carbon fiber hardtail sold by bikes direct rode like shit compared to the Scott Scale I replaced it with.

If you don't see how a 3k wheelset with DT180s isn't gear to elite racing I dunno how to help you.
  • 1 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: oh yea..that kind of failure is no good.
  • 1 1
 @clink83: By your logic, large companies will always make better products than small companies. The evidence does not support this.
  • 4 1
 @R-M-R: I don't see where he said that. What I got out of what he said is that GOOD companies make better products. When he said "leading wheel maker" he meant BEST not BIGGEST. DT Swiss is not actually the biggest wheel maker in the world - that would be Novatec...and as I think we all can agree, that proves your point that "biggest" does not mean "best". But DT Swiss is universally regarded as the best overall wheel maker. Now that doesn't mean that any given wheelset you buy from DT is going to be the best - it could be that someone else makes a bettter AM wheelset, and yet another maker produces a better XC wheelset. All it means is that DT offers a very competitive product in EVERY category...and there's no question they do.

FWIW there is a lot more to a wheelset than whether or not it breaks. Wheelsets are built from a lot of parts and getting every one of those parts right is key to building a top notch product. DT produces all the parts needed to build a complete wheelset, and therefore controls every aspect of their product. Very few other companies can say the same thing, and that's a major part of what makes DT's products so good.
  • 1 1
 @TheRaven: Let's not split hairs. The statement was "[company] has the money and profits to do the type of R&D that small companies can't." Thus, any company that makes more money should make a better product. The evidence doesn't support this.
  • 1 0
 @TheRaven: You are spot-on correct - being from the Road/Tri side of the street there are still folks who claim that "hand made" this or that (heck, I even saw a guy with soldered spokes on a bike recently).

The fact is that currently, machines have a FAR better rate of quality wheels than just about any man can. Not just in numbers but in the percentage of super high-quality wheels. Not so much. The days of the Hozan Tensiometer and what not are long past.

Sure it is neat when "Trevor" at the shop can lace up a cool wheel on a super loud hub (I hate super loud freehub clicking). But, where the rubber literally meets the road is how they last - should be years and years and years. I happen to ride mostly Mavic wheels (Campagnolo on the road). The number of times I hear "but so and so at the shop builds an awesome wheel" - that costs more and is simply not as good as a machine built wheel is astounding.
  • 1 1
 @R-M-R: I wasn't splitting anything. Just explaining how I took what was said. I disagree with your evaluation.
  • 3 1
 @R-M-R: the bleeding edge technology in bikes is done by Scott, Specialized, DT Swiss ect. All the new suspension stuff is usually tested by the big brands, not by small brands. You're fooling yourself if you think small companies are by and large doing it. Money talks when it comes to R&D. Anyone can pay for marketing.
  • 2 0
 @inked-up-metalhead: I ruined a rear 240 by putting too much grease in it back in the day. DT guy I spoke with said that the grease mixes with dirt and turns to peanut butter. He laughed and sent me a new hub, even though it was my fault as a newb. I have quite a few stories about Easton, where it wasn't my fault... but how they treated their customers is probably a lot of the reason why we don't see their logo anymore. After trying almost every major wheel on the market, now I have 4 DT swiss wheelsets in my garage. It's all about brand trust.
  • 2 0
 @madpixl: yeah Ive had similar issues with other hubs where the grease packs down and causes stuff to stick, but they were well used hubs, not less than 40 miles on them. Again, I see it as an outlier, and I wouldnt use it against dt, the replacement has been perfect, everything else I've ever used has been perfect (well, let's not talk about the old ex5.1d rims that were made of butter) and it hasn't changed what I think of them.
  • 123 9
 Isn't every ride on a carbon rim set a test?
  • 5 3
 @top.comment.god
  • 5 0
 Truer words have never been spoken.
  • 88 25
 An incredibly light carbon rim failed under tortuous conditions? Well, I never..
  • 87 3
 ..Finished my sentence
  • 2 3
 Torturous, not tortuous. Tortuous means full of twists and turns (which does describe a trail, I know, but it is not what was meant in this context),
  • 1 0
 @iamamodel: u are correct
  • 3 0
 @RGonz: I LOVE BEING A TURTLE....
  • 49 0
 You point load any carbon rim in the right place, direction, and significant amount of force and it will bust just like this. As someone who develops composites for aerospace applications for a living I find a lot of the marketing surrounding composite MTB products to be incredibly disingenuous.
  • 6 6
 Anything *can* fail, but not everything *does* fail. Smart design and sufficient material reduce the probability of failure.
  • 43 2
 I'm just happy that Pinkbike's testers are putting these ridiculously priced carbon wheels through the wringer and reporting back what happened.
  • 8 0
 @R-M-R: In addition to reducing the probability of failure, "Sufficient material" also reduces the probability of being lightweight.
  • 4 3
 @Eighty6SVO: Obviously. But there are cheaper and lighter rims that appear to hold up better.
  • 14 0
 @R-M-R: TBH. Unless you made those "cheaper and lighter rims" suffer the exact same hit as the reviewed wheel its just a hypothesis.
  • 12 1
 Boeing? Anyhow, you're right about marketing. I remember people around here dropping mad cash on the first gen ENVE rims and nobody has theirs anymore... Despite warranty! Turns out ENVE didn't account for people hitting the top of a rim on anything, had the bottom part all figured out though.

Also, I find it an odd co-incidence that in this article the rims came with a nylon value-nut, which was replaced with steel and then the rim failed at exactly this area. Could it be the layup in that area is thin enough that the nylon valve stem nut was required so it would to yield if when that valve stem was impacted.
  • 4 3
 @jcklondon: I think it’s likely that these wheels were designed with the average well-heeled Range Rover driver in mind. They’re not meant to be actually flown 16m on the regular and smashed into berms hard enough to buzz the tyre on the chain stay.
  • 4 1
 @jcklondon: It’s and aluminium nut and the failure wasn’t at the valve hole. I either way don’t crank the nut to red face tight.
  • 1 0
 @Ferisko: And we can't truly replicate the impact without a controlled test in a fixture; until then, we just have field reports of failure rates. Best we can do without the lab test.
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts: Ah, sorry.. While the Alu nut isn't steel it's probably a lot tougher than nylon eh?

From the photo it looks like the failure could have begun adjacent to the valve hole. My thought was the valve-stem sustained and impact and levered the aluminum nut into the area adjacent the valve hole creating this stress point which would later lead to the catastrophic failure. It would maybe fit the theory DT presented: "DT Swiss could only suggest that perhaps the failure had come about from a smaller, less visible failure being subjected to the force of the landing"

Sorry about the armchair engineering, but there is a reason why the rim broke there? Regardless of remaing questions, thanks for sharing the actual results!
  • 15 0
 To clarify... I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with the design of these products, this is more of a general observation/complaint of mine since I am consistently bothered by the way marketing uses engineering terms to drive a false narrative to customers.

For example when a MTB company talks about the "strength" of their product a customer without a materials background reads that language they are lead to (reasonably) believe that product X is a certain % stronger than product Y and thus will be more durable in nearly all use cases. When in fact a composite wheel (or frame) is far more vulnerable to a catastrophic failure if it encounters a point load (think sharp pointed object falling onto it). These are the types of damage that we fear most when we design composites for aerospace applications.

What frustrates me is that when companies talk strength of aluminum vs carbon products often they're citing tensile strength or some other constant or impact load. In a road application (cars, motorcycles, road bikes) this is probably sufficient as they rarely encounter types of impacts that lead to catastrophic failure but for a MTB product that spends it's life literally smashing into sharp pointed rocks the manufacturers need to be forthright about the durability of their products.

Just my 2c
  • 6 1
 @loudv8noises: You're not wrong, but if that annoys you, you'd better not delve into the marketing of suspension kinematics!
  • 2 0
 @R-M-R: or the marketing of whitening toothpaste, or... anything really.
  • 1 0
 @bishopsmike: There's always a bigger fish.
  • 5 0
 @R-M-R: Yes! Haha... I love it when a bike company spends years developing their suspension system and tells us it's the best, and better than all the rest and they've come up with the best possible mix of all the important buzzwords. Then the next year, they totally re-vamp it... "Oh ya, now we have the best suspension system... we were just joking about our old version".
  • 4 1
 @loudv8noises: Finally, somebody with hands-on knowledge speaks about this. Personally, I find carbon composites a poor choice of material for non-racing mtb applications. Too much speed, too many sharp edged rocks. Maybe ok for handlebars, where contact with the ground is not as frequent.
  • 3 0
 @islandforlife: Well *of course* they redesigned it! The revolutionary new design completely resists rider inputs when pedaling, completely responds to rider inputs when descending, is supple on small impacts, is bottomless on large impacts, and is perfectly tuned for air *and* coil springs!
  • 1 0
 @Ferisko: Haha, yes...
  • 1 0
 I find it downright scary! Metal has completely predictable failure modes. None of which are caused by it sucking in moisture and never giving it back!
  • 1 0
 @loudv8noises: Oh hell yes. It's insane to hear people believe that XC components are stronger than DH components because carbon.

Strength of materials plus volume of materials plus geometry of part and loading. Then you can make the call. Only then.
  • 1 0
 [Double post]
  • 1 0
 @bishopsmike: Is running aluminum rims like having teeth that don't pass the "tissue test"?
  • 9 1
 When an aluminium product fails, people blame the manufacturer. When a carbon product fails, they blame the material. This is not logical.
  • 33 0
 DT Swiss: Engineers high end carbon Enduro wheelset
DT Swiss Enduro Riders: rides the cheap Alum rims
  • 6 11
flag jaame (Feb 14, 2020 at 11:41) (Below Threshold)
 Cheap is a relative term! I think the alloy rims are pretty expensive considering they are literally just a hoop of metal that probably costs about £4 to make and distribute.
It’s just that they seem cheap compared to the carbon alternatives that have somehow managed to make absolutely ridiculous prices seem almost normal!
  • 16 1
 @jaame: ight if its a hoop of metal go ahead and make them yourself Smile
  • 3 0
 It's always a bit of wash trying to determine the value/performance of carbon rims. Alloy rims are getting within 100g of some carbon models of similar dimensions, but if you need to run inserts to keep them rolling that difference in weight is all lost, not to mention some claim carbon rims to be too stiff. My 425g Velocity Blunt SS rims (32h on DT350) have done exceptional well considering I ride like an idiot and weigh 250lbs. Yea they aren't the widest, but if one of the lightest alloy rims can be this reliable, rims 50-75g heavier are probably plenty stout and still not dramatically heavier than carbon. For example, you can find several wide alloy rims (Spank 350, Newman A30, DT511, etc) that are only 60g heavier than Light Bike's Recon Pro 32mm carbon rims at 1/3 the price.
  • 4 0
 @jaame: EVERYTHING is cheap when you only factor in the variable costs of manufacture and distribution and ignore cost of design and OH
  • 3 4
 @xeren: when you sell 3 million rims a year for $90 each, the three designers you pay €35,000 each and the 12 €700 electricity bills don’t affect the profit very much
  • 2 1
 @xeren: those bike pool bikes in China apparently cost about $17 each. They have two rims on them, and a frame, tyres, seat etc.
When you look at it that way, isn’t $90 a rim expensive?
Yes, I would buy one because I think they are worth the money and that is the price that the market will sustain. But it’s not really cheap, for one single piece of a bicycle. I’m sure there are rims out there which can be bought for American cents per unit. They are cheap. Cheaper than a meal of food.
The point is, people’s perception of what constitutes a cheap rim has been skewed by carbon over the past 8-10 years.
In 2010 a $90 DT Swiss rim would have been considered an expensive premium product.
  • 3 0
 exactly. if you look at EWS, Richie and Jared are riding the ex1501 one wheels. The highest level Alu rims instead of carbon ones.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: fair, they are not cheap in general, but relative to the carbon hops they are!!
  • 1 0
 @BillyBoy0519:
They would probably crack the carbon....
They probably ding up the 1501 and replace often
  • 31 0
 Their response was at least better than ENVE’s response to carbon failure, though it’s disappointing that the carbon failed without any abnormalities in the quality.
  • 42 8
 Thing is, the EXC1200 is an ASTM class 4 wheel. Which aren't really designed (or tested) to withstand bike park abuse.

"Wheels in this category are made for kinds of terrains, including very steep and very harsh trails. They can handle jumps up to 122cm/48in.They are designed for aggressive use but they are not built for regular use in bike parks. These wheels are made for mid travel Trail and Enduro bikes."

It's not really surprising that a super light component designed for certain amount of abuse does not have huge reserves in durability above what it was designed for.
  • 25 2
 @Ferisko: What does enduro riding mean in other parts of the world? Enduro riding, for me, means it should AT LEAST be able to hold up to some bike park riding. EWS Whistler takes part partly in the bike park, after all.
  • 27 0
 @jayacheess: yeah, we'll work on getting more POV footage in future tests so you can put things into context.

I think there's an issue with people using the word "enduro" to describe "trail riding except I don't care about the climb" rather than the level of terrain and tracks that you encounter in enduro racing.
  • 9 0
 @jayacheess: Thats great. But what the marketing buzzword Enduro means to you, me or anyone else is not important. They use ASTM F2043 classification and they clearly specify that the wheel set was made to meet ASTM Classification 4. The consumer has to decide whether it is enough for their use. Plus the lighter more "racey" components are made the less reserves they usually have to go above and beyond designed stress. Which was my main point above.

That being said, EX1501's wheels are also ASTM class 4 (and EX471 and EX511 rims as well) and I would not have any reservation using those in a bike park.
  • 7 0
 @Ferisko: 170mm is definitely not a "mid travel" enduro bike. I'd be curious about the size of this gap, but 4 feet isn't much at all for a 170mm bike. It kind of sounds like the test environment was well outside of the ASTM classification.

Having said that, here's where the marketers come in: of course they're advertised as an "enduro rider's dream wheel" that are "tough enough for everything the best in the sport can throw at them." I mean...ASTM 4 literally does not live up to that description, even though most trail/enduro wheels are in this category.

So as you say: maybe if durability/reliability is a concern, don't get the very lightest ASTM 4 carbon wheels you can find!
  • 8 0
 @shortcuttomoncton: the gap is in this rooty section: www.pinkbike.com/photo/17637080
  • 3 0
 @Ferisko: According to that, how is the 122cm jump for ASTM class 4 measured? That opens a whole can of worms...

Personally, I wouldn't expect a product designed for Enduro racing to fail during bike park use, but hey.
  • 6 0
 @getonyourbike: I'm sure testing procedure and loads are described in detail somewhere in the ASTM F2043 publication. Thing is, the publication is not available for free so we, the public, only get those short descriptions that some manufacturers put on their sites or product description. My above quote came from:
www.mavic.com/sites/default/files/download/mavic_en_astm_usage.pdf

And I agree that the ASTM class 4 description is rather anemic compared to what most of the people would imagine when you say enduro riding. Hell I would argue that and a single EWS race can cause more abuse to a wheelset than a few bikepark days.
.
  • 1 3
 @Ferisko: super light? Did you checked the weight of this combo? It's not 1200g bruh...
  • 1 0
 @Ferisko: From that, you could absolutely challenge a company if they say a product was used beyond its design limits. Very grey area.
  • 9 0
 @S851: I checked. 1697g actual weight for a 29er Enduro wheelset is actually pretty damn light. It's almost 200g lighter than their lightest alloy product in the same category, the EX1501. It's ligher than Crankbrothers Synthesis E11, It's ligher than that e13 LG1 EN carbon wheels. It's lighter than any of the ASTM 4 wheels from Mavic. It's light for what it is.
  • 6 0
 @brianpark: Cheers. Always hard to tell from a picture, but that definitely looks pretty standard for enduro!
  • 1 0
 @brianpark: wow, seems pretty normal.
  • 2 0
 @Ferisko: Are you saying the marketing is out of step with engineering AGAIN?
  • 4 0
 @Ferisko: Agreed. I would not hit a bike park riding a sub 1700 gram pair of carbon rims, that's for sure!
  • 1 1
 @brianpark: Agreed. I don't think they are marketed correctly by DT Swiss. A sub 1700g set of "enduro" wheels...I wouldn't race EWS with that.
  • 1 0
 @Ferisko: then u r pretty bad in searching and stuff.

Ie. Newmwen EVOLUTION SL A.30 are 1760g for ALU! The review is somewhere on PB.

That's why 1697g for carbon.always cracking.rims is not light enough,even if its light for what it is.

63g don't bother me...

Cheers
  • 1 0
 @S851: Hey man the Newmens are great and light wheelset, no doubt. But your claim was that those EXC's are not light and to prove your point you list a heavier wheelset? Besides, SL A.30 is more of an equivalent to XMC1200 and those are another ~200g ligher compared to EXC's. Just saying Smile
  • 2 1
 @Ferisko: SL.A 30 are full on enduro wheels, more durable than EX1501 in lab testing and real world testing as well. First gen wheels where even lighter than gen2, but some people cannot use bearing preload right obviously so they redesigned them and weight went up slightly.
  • 30 1
 Shit happens. I still love you DT.
  • 3 0
 yep. i've had like 10 DT swiss rims, only 1 has failed on me, and that was an XR 391 rim with 47mm tires on a square edged hit on the rear of a hardtail. i can't say enough good things about their XM line
  • 18 0
 I'm definitely getting older and I know I'm more of a curmudgen than ever but $2700?! I had taken some time away from riding at one point, but what year was it when we crashed onto the main drag of crazy town? Yeah yeah. I know. Carbon fiber. High-tech. Bla bla bla. Who out there that works a regular job and maybe even has a family is buying this stuff? I know everyone makes the jokes about dentists and such, but really who is the market? Do people want this sort of thing so badly that they'll pauper themselves to get it? I just don't get who is buying his stuff. I almost died financially buying my first downhill race bike way back when, and I got that on clearance in a sweetheart deal from a local shop dying to be rid of it. A $5000ish DH bike then was a pinnacle. Now people are talking upwards of $10k for a bike to go for a trail ride. I just can't get my brain around it. I've officially become old Frown
  • 9 0
 Don't worry, plenty in your camp. I just bought a Nukeproof Horizon wheelset for $280. I don't expect any failures from that anytime soon.
  • 6 0
 I think the name of a game here is choice. Even if we take just DT Swiss as example. They make wheels for the same application in pretty much every budget bracket you can think of. From E1900 which cost like 1/10th of the EXC1200's, E1700 for around double that, EX1501 for around 4 times that and then the super expensive EXC1200. Pick what suits your needs and budget and go ride Smile
  • 15 0
 Hmmm, rides in Europe, loves the RAAW Madonna, destroys wheels, nondescript name.

I think that this "Dan Roberts" is just Paul Aston brought back in disguise to avoid sponsor fury. I'll be interested to read review. I'll be eager to read reviews from "John Morris" until he blows up the next set of carbon rims.
  • 17 0
 I love the Astongate theories.
  • 2 0
 @dan-roberts: Did you ever by chance see the Robot Chicken Star Wars short where the staff of the Death Star lets Darth Vader continue to believe that he can force choke people to death so that he won't just kill them with his lightsaber when he gets annoyed? Then they just put on a fake mustache/beard/etc. and show up with a new name? Well that's what I'm imagining.

Haven't seen it? Well here you go, Paul! I mean *wink* Dan.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8
  • 6 0
 This is canon now. @dan-roberts I need you to grow your hair out and start calling Chris Porter on a daily basis.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: You're going the wrong way Brian. The hat and sunglasses in his picture how are a good touch, but now he's going to need to go and change something else, not go back to looking like he did before. Maybe grow a beard to become "John Morris." Then add a shaved head next time he smashes some rims. He could go by, I don't know, Eddie Masters?
  • 12 0
 I can speak to the spoke noise. Road wheels are are awful for this. Its cause by bladed spoke rub and make awful noises under load and breaking. The simple solution is clean the bike and add just one drop of chain lube where the spokes cross, let it sit for a few hours and wipe off access. Problem solved.
  • 1 0
 Silver spokes are quieter than black spokes. They are slicker and move freely over each other. Like you said lubing spokes also helps as does having round spokes.
  • 1 2
 I have just had a $200 set of enduro wheels built up. 32 bladed Alpina spokes, 3 cross, no noise whatsoever. And they weigh 2000g with cheap hubs. Thats a lot of dollars to save 300g.
  • 12 0
 IMO we have got to the point where we need more rigorous wheel failure testing. You can't compare failing rims in different conditions. And there is so many variables that by mere riding, you can never replicate the same conditions even with the same rider on the same track.
  • 1 0
 Agreed, but we aren't entirely satisfied with the bench-testing we see out there either. Something for us to work on and think about.
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: I agree. The ASTM F2043 seems a bit anemic in class 4 for the way most people ride today. Not sure what other standards are there. Also, for carbon components like rims a lot more emphasis should be put into testing how they handle rock strikes or other sharp objects. And not just from the rubber side. Flipped over rocks that hit/scratch the rim from the top are a regular occurrence where I ride for example.
  • 2 3
 @brianpark: Brian, did Dan or anyone at Pinkbike happen to let DT know that the valve cap was switched from he resin version to the aluminum one? It just seems very suspicious to me that the failure happened right where that metal cap would have been levered right into the carbon if the valve stem was impacted. Not saying that's what happened right when this wheel failed, but it could have caused damage earlier that then caused the wheel to fail during an impact it would normally have held up against.
  • 4 0
 @islandforlife: The rim broke on the opposite side to the valve hole.
  • 1 3
 @dan-roberts: So what are we seeing in that pic? Isn't that the valve hole, right beside the break? or is that somehow a spoke hole?
  • 5 0
 @islandforlife: That’s a spoke hole. The valve hole is by the gloss black EXC 1200 writing and the failure is through the grey DT Swiss on the opposite side. It failed through the whole rim, not just around a spoke hole.
  • 11 1
 For f*ck sake. People. Could we just forget about carbon as a material for rims already? It's the same story all over again. Like mantra. Blablablabla weight, blablablabla stiffness, blablablabla price, and in the end just a big f*ckin kaboom!

Firms want to cash in on stupid people chaising perfection. Learn how to ride. Practice. Enjoy being with nature. Forget this stupid nonsense. And ... buy DT stuff because it's excellent. Just not f*ckin carbon wheels.
  • 2 1
 My crabon wheels still haven't gone kaboom. Funny how if you choose the right parts for your riding style/conditions you tend to not break stuff.
  • 1 1
 @clink83: This article as 90% of other articles on this page is not about XC. Personally I ride in the Alps. Carbon is not suitable for the conditions nor for the style I ride. My assumption is that average pinkbike rider rides like that or even harder.
  • 1 0
 @goroncy: and yet plenty of people on pinkbike do fine with carbon wheels. It's the vocal carbon haters that never ride carbon wheels that claim they all break. There are plenty of people who do trail or endure riding and do fine with carbon. If you ride like a 400lb gorrilla and break parts all the time no, carbon wheels aren't for you. If you don't regularly trash AL rims, you'll do fine with carbon rims.
  • 14 1
 EX 511 for me.
  • 4 16
flag WAKIdesigns (Feb 14, 2020 at 9:17) (Below Threshold)
 Hold it boy, it’s no more durable than Ex471. I destroyed 511 in one summer. Yeah it was a big loose rock and it was DD tire with no insert, but I will not buy another one for the rear.
  • 5 0
 @WAKIdesigns: 511s are 5mm wider in ID and OD than 471s (which is a fine rim), but PB told me I needed wider.
  • 9 0
 @WAKIdesigns: DAM 511 wheels destroyed in a summer, that is impressive Smile
  • 4 4
 @Rigidjunkie: I made the first dent with procore inside. Then I rode onto a brick shaped and sized rock at 30km/h. No instert and Aggressor DD. It got a decent dent, the whole sidewall got raised so the closest spoke got loose. Bad luck x2? Maybe but I have a theory that wider rims in the rear for DH are not the best idea (like anything that is not a DH tire) I smashed Ex471 for 3 years and it got very small dents.
  • 5 0
 @WAKIdesigns: that's why I have a 471 rear, 511 front. Narrower rims are more dent resistant and 511 front fr wider tyre profile and cause fronts are less likely to ding - unless you're a total weapon and ride into everything. Lasted me a year of bike parks and general gnar in NZ, Canada and the Alps and still rolling.
  • 1 4
 @milanboez: the terminal hit was my mistake. It was going fast on shitty access road with plenty of rocks lying around. I tend to be smooth.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I consider that your fault, not the rim!
  • 1 4
 @davec113: yes and no. Impossible to determine. I had some nasty hits on EX471 and they always remained relatively straight with minor dents. I bought ex511 to be on the safe side as I planned to ramp up my riding, and here it fails rather quickly. I will therefore not buy 511 again. Not worth the extra weight. Width wise it doesn’t matter. I will ise DH tires anyways and they are quite stable. I will probably buy XM481 for the front, maybe XM521 as width is more important on the front
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: You're right.... there's a 99.999% chance it's your fault (either your riding or maintaining spoke tension) and not a defect in the rim. Wink
  • 1 4
 @davec113: and? What percentage of component failure is not riders fault? When did I say there’s defect in the rim? This carbon DT Swiss failed because huck over a road gap was incomplete. Pardon me but there is a major flaw in your reasoning. I merely pointed out that in going from XM481/EX471 to EX511 may not be worth it. I stand correct. My anus is toyt!
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: road gap? It failed on a natural trail gap in the roots of Morgins. It's a reach of a gap, but it's not some mega freeride move. It's in this section of trail: www.pinkbike.com/photo/17637080
  • 1 3
 @brianpark: ok, he cased a bigger root with it. It’s his fault according to Davec113 not the rim...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I agree. The 23mm Flows on my HT suffer less than the 30mm back wheel on my 170mm bike. Going to replace it with a 25mm when its dinged beyond holding air...
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: That's what I ran. XM481 front and EX471 rear, 240S hubs and 32 DT spokes with ProLock nipples. Solid. The stiffness should be pretty similar between the front and rear too, as they're the same rim weights, though the profile obviously affects it too.
  • 8 0
 240s, Aerolite, EX511 in 32 and 650b is under 1800g. Nearly as light and bends instead of cracks. Probably not as snappy and stiff, but no problem if you‘re under 90kg kitted up
  • 8 0
 Yep, this is probably what I'd build personally if I were doing a 27.5" wheel. That said, we were testing the 29" version here, so your comparison wheel would be a good bit heavier.
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: My pair in 29“ is 1890g Wink
  • 5 0
 Light carbon wheels are gonna fail if you smash em hard enough. Alum probly would too. The fact that it happened during testing for PB is tough luck for DT, who makes good stuff.

I have a set of the DT Swiss XMC 30 with the 240 hubs. They were an optional upgrade that I went for for a good price on an OEM build. I dont tend to the the guy who breaks stuff but I do often ride fast and blow the clean line. I've got 2 seasons on them. I haven't touched the front one. I crushed a rear rim that was replaced by DT in a few days for $350 by sending it to them in Grand Junction, which is pretty close to where I live. The bead was trashed but I was able to JB weld it and ride it for the rest of the season till winter came. The hit that broke the rim was savage and nearly threw me over the bars at high speed. It was pilot error and probably would have destroyed any rim made out of any material.

The hubs will probably last a lifetime. The rims? Probably not, just like any other rim made out of plastic or metal.
  • 7 0
 Pinkbike breaking things.
Britney Spears.

*shakes hands*

*harmonizes*

"Oops I did it again"
  • 7 0
 Bike parks are notorious for breaking parts. I would only use DH rated parts if I was going full send in a bike park.
  • 4 0
 Ibis makes a verrryyy similar pair of wheels called the S28 Carbon, its 1630 grams and literally half the price ($1299) if you go with their "logo" brand name hubs, which are perfectly fine hubs. I've been running ibis rims on 5 different bikes since 2015 and only broke one rim on blind drop where I landed directly on a tall sharp rock lol.
  • 4 0
 Maybe I missed it and if so I apologize but I don't see anywhere in the article where the weight of the rim is listed. This seems to be common for wheel reviews and it is really a major oversight. For folks that did not take high school physics or have since forgotten the moment of inertia (think of it as how snappy a wheel feels) is based on the distance the mass is from the axle to the 4th power. Meaning hub weight is mostly irrelevant in terms of rotational acceleration of the wheel compared to rim weight.
  • 5 0
 It's a wheelset review so we evaluate it on total system weight. Also, Dan is an actual engineer and definitely hasn't forgotten about the moment of inertia. Smile
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: yeah, but does the manufacturer not give you a rim weight, or at least a range? It seems like real pertinent information. I get that y'all aren't going to take a wheel set apart to weigh the rim but at least including the manufacturers stated weight range for the rim adds a ton of info to the review.
  • 5 0
 @iantmcg: DT Swiss wouldn’t give us a rim only weight. But now I’m off to see if I can’t figure out how much it weighs from all the separate components.
  • 5 0
 @dan-roberts: that makes sense. Nothing against you all personally. The lack of rim weight is fairly consistently left out of wheel reviews across a wide variety of bike websites and it really makes no sense. But I don't expect you all to take apart a wheel or subtract out the hub and spoke weight to get to a rim estimate. The manufacturer should be providing that info. I also realize due to manufacturing differences slight differences will exist but a 10 or 20 gram range seems reasonable. Thanks for taking the time to respond and cheers!
  • 1 1
 @dan-roberts: I did your homework
DT 180 FR hub: 94.00 gr
DT 180 RR hub: 185.00
28 300mm Aero Comp Spokes 188.90
28 300mm Aerolite Spokes 138.20
56 DT Squorx nipples Alu. 22.75
FR & RR Rim tape & Valves 31.00
Total 659.85

So that leaves 1010 gr. (505 gr. ea) for the rims, doesnt seem all that light compared to:

Santa Cruz Reserve 30 490 gr.
We Are One Agent 488 gr.
We Are One Union 495 gr.
  • 1 0
 Info: Flow MTB actually weighed the wheelset and got 1697 gr. Which would put the rim only weight at 518 gr.
  • 1 0
 @MikeAzBS: Nice work! 1697g for the wheelset is also the exact same weight I weighed the wheels to be.
  • 5 1
 I've been running a set of these a little over a year, with tons of park and really chunky trail useage. Tons of whip to very sideways landings with no issues. I run 2.3/2.5 EXO tires, no DD, with Cushcore front and rear and have had my fair share of hard hits that cut into the CC. I've been super happy with them, and DT is easy to work with if you were to encounter an issue down the road.
  • 4 0
 Ive been to DT Swiss's testing facility, once you leave after seeing the science they put into their wheel designs, you know completely that they are solid engineers and passionate about their products. That being said, everything can break if you hit it hard enough. The difference between this test and the one done by @paulaston seems to be the duration. These lasted longer.

However, this type of testing is non scientific, also 99 percent of the riders that are going to buy these wheels are not going to break them, as they don't have the skills like the test rider to push the limit, so yes they broke, but, I would not call this a situation to brand them with forever. Its a bit of tabloid journalism in the bike industry, which is just as rare as carbon rims on the trail. no rarer... So many things going on here, I would not exaggerate too much this one test. You need five riders doing the same thing to come up with believable data sets.
  • 3 0
 @dan-roberts : are you sure it's the spokes rubbing against each other causing the noise? If you put a thin piece of paper between the spokes at the crossing and rock back & forth while holding the brake leaver, do you still hear it?
I had the same issue with my DT Swss XRC 1200 Spline 30's : a drop of boiled line seed oil on the interface between spoke nipple and carbon rim and the issue was gone.
  • 1 0
 Regular maintenance: oil your spokes, only for 2k.
  • 3 0
 Having those in All Mountain version (XMC), I have to say it's a seriously good product, very good hub (easy to service), and my god how light is it compared to the other wheels at the same price. They also feel very nervous when you unleash the watts. So satisfied with the XMC 1200.
  • 2 0
 Ibis S35 i9 wheels are 1650g w/ 32 j-bend spokes. I also haven’t heard of any catastrophic failures, but it’s hard to find that info so I won’t make any claims about reliability. Does anyone have experience blowing up Ibis S35 rims? If they don’t explode (mine haven’t but I’m light and not super sends), then these and the Roval anecdotes would say the low weight isn’t why these blew up.
  • 1 0
 *sendy
  • 2 0
 I’ve been on the s35 rims with i9 hubs for about 7-8 months. They’ve taken some smaller hits with no issues. Only a few days in bike parks, but lots of rough trails. I’m impressed with the durability given the weight (same weight as the DT). They’re not cheap by any means, but they’re about $1k less than the DT.
  • 1 0
 @dmclemens: super sendsy.
  • 2 0
 Tough sell on these wheels imo, however I popped a very heavy duty CF rim in a similar manner, by just coming up short on a smallish jump.

These things are really unpredicable.

But either way, no one over 90#s should be riding at a bike park without inserts.
  • 2 0
 The article doesn't mention the word "warranty." I vote all carbon wheel reviews should review the warranty. I'm assuming if a consumer did this, you'd have to buy a new rim, as nothing in the test or response from DT Swiss indicates it would be replaced. I'll stick with my lifetime warranty on We Are One thank you very much.
  • 6 1
 Light carbon wheels love Cushcore !!
  • 5 0
 Love me some Cushcore....Broke a Raceface carbon hoop 2 years back at Northstar. Got to bottom of stage (practice) Tire still had 27psi, Cushcore in tact and rim split nearly in two. Crazy
The good, won a signed Jersey with my #senditrandy hashtag from Marco Osborne.. Same race he knocked himself silly and was out concussed for awhile.
  • 21 3
 Nothing like shelling out cash for a light weight wheel, then undoing all those weight savings by spending more cash for cushcore.
  • 5 1
 @4thflowkage: Not exactly the case... Cushcore with an EXO plus casing is still lighter then a DH casing tire. Plus its a stiffer lower maintenance wheel. To each their own
  • 2 1
 @4thflowkage: this a thousand times
  • 1 2
 @4thflowkage: Exactly! That's a big part of why I run tubeless, the weight savings... then you put it right back in with that cushcore stuff...
  • 2 0
 Those straight pull spokes on DT's proprietary hub can be a nightmare to replace if you catch an unlucky stick or rock. Spokes fail and having to wait for a special order to replace them is less than ideal.
  • 1 0
 I can confirm that, I have 350 SP hubs in that exact shape. If you break a spoke, you have to loosen the spoke next to it to take it out.
  • 3 0
 So @dan-roberts please tell me you took the new rim to the same carbon destroying gap to see if it held the second time on the same feature...?
  • 1 0
 I know that DT Swiss specifies allowed thickens for 6bolt rotors with their CL to 6 bolt adapter/nut as 1.8mm to 2.2mm. Don't know if they revised it for the newer version with the spacer but I'm pretty sure hope floating rotors are quite thick in the 6 bolt mounting area. Plus the CL nut cannot make use of the counterbore holes for the 6 bolt interface on the disc so I would wager the disc exceeds those 2.2mm in that area.
  • 2 0
 DT wants 3.6k CAD for almost 1700 grams?!?! Only narps would buy these ripoffs.
Light Bicycle makes a 30mm id rim, with the same hubs and cx ray spokes you get a 1460g wheelset w/ lifetime warranty for just over 2k CAD.
  • 1 0
 @dan-roberts I just wanted to point out that I don't think the fitment issue you had with the hope rotors is anything particular to this wheelset. As far as I knew, hope rotors were not compatible with centerlock hubs with adapters due to the thickness of the spider and the fact that the rotor bolt holes are countersunk.
  • 1 0
 I had a pair of the original 24mm XMC1200s. Had to replace bearings and one of the rear spokes during the two years. These wheels were genuinely light - just above 1400g for 27.5s. I always used light casing tires and the rim bead area never got damaged, although the wheels got pretty bruised. Eventually the rear rim cracked along a couple adjacent spoke holes. This might have to do with resin corrosion at spoke nipples, or maybe the area was just not reinforced enough to take the stress. I also owned and cracked a number of chinese carbon rims, and they never failed in a similar manner to the 29in 30mm 1200s. Even when dented hard, the rim structure would stay intact, they never failed completely. These new wheels see a massive increase in weight and should indeed be very tough. I would be hard pressed to have them fail under my 80kg body weight.
  • 3 2
 Strangely the Roval Traverse SL is not much heavier as a wheelset and it seemed to hold up fine in the test. Just because you point of that the DT 1200 is so light and too light in order to stand up to abuse.
  • 7 24
flag WAKIdesigns (Feb 14, 2020 at 9:15) (Below Threshold)
 This test is ridiculous. It’s DT Swiss XC racing wheel and they are doing laps in Morgins with it. Really? A sensible choice for this application is at least EX471 and 511 would not be an overkill. The fact that Roval Traverse SL wouldn’t fail in same conditions would purely down to luck
  • 1 0
 the irony here is that the older traverse SL 29 is lighter. The new 32h one is just a hair heavier.Both i30
  • 4 0
 Which test? We've only tested the regular Traverse wheels, which are ~150g heavier. The Traverse SL's 1735g is claimed not actual.
  • 16 1
 @WAKIdesigns: what? DT's website says "The result is any enduro rider's dream wheel: Peace of mind in the downhills and enough breath for a chat on the ups."
  • 6 0
 I've seen several reports on roval traverse SL rims breaking as well. They are not immune.
  • 8 0
 @WAKIdesigns: You're ridiculous. Smile
  • 6 0
 @WAKIdesigns: The article states the intended use for this wheelset is enduro. DT Swiss's own website states this about the wheelset:
"Learning from our very successful EWS riders, we designed the rims for the EXC 1200 SPLINE 30 to be tough enough for everything the best in the sport can throw at them. Yet they are still light enough to spin all day. And the right width to accommodate today's high-volume enduro tires. This rim is complemented by our completely new top-end Ratchet System hubs. They keep the lightweight theme, as do the bladed and butted straight-pull spokes. The result is any enduro rider's dream wheel: Peace of mind in the downhills and enough breath for a chat on the ups. "

For $2700, I think this kind of failure is unacceptable for an enduro wheelset. Enduro bikes and components should be expected to hold up to big hits.
  • 10 5
 @EricLanglais: @brianpark - ok... sorry then. Then DT Swiss is ridiculous. They made an XC rim and decided to brand it for Enduro... oh well... I doubt any top EWS racer would use it on EWS. One look at the weight number and it’s obvious it’s at best a Down Country rim.
  • 8 2
 I had no problem destroying a carbon Roval... and a Raceface, and a Enve, and a Ibis and a Reynolds and a China special. at least the Enve was replaced no cost, and no questions asked. Can't say the same for any others.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: No worries, the name on the wheelset is confusing. I had to check it out before I responded.
  • 2 1
 @EricLanglais: For $2700, this is entirely expected in a carbon rim. I have friends on their 7th or 8th Enve warranty. It's carbon, after all. You're not paying for the plastic, you are paying for the customer service and constant free replacements. Many people are fine with this (And always have a backup set of wheels to ride when in for warranty) as long as the customer service is good.
  • 1 0
 @Rubberelli: If you're racing, this isn't ok. Also, a crack that still holds the tire and air is different than this catastrophic failure.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: These are light.. but a top spec XC rim is gonna be between 1350g and 1550g. These would be amazing wheels for all day everyday XC/Downcountry riding but I wouldn't personally race on them. I can see a market for 1800g Enduro race wheels..especially for EWS racers where the Enduro stages are long and taxing, even with uphill on occasion! But taking them to a bike park every weekend and yes you'd want a more bomb-proof 2000g alloy set, imo, which is what most top level EWS riders have.
  • 7 0
 @EricLanglais: Confusing because the EXC is not E+XC, but EX+C, where C stands for carbon. The first two letters are XR (cross-county), XM (all-mountain), and EX (enduro). Same naming convention for the alloy (Spline 1, 1501 series) wheels
  • 2 0
 @EricLanglais: which is why most EWS racers use AL rims!
  • 3 0
 @Rubberelli: Who pays $2700 for an Enve wheelset. They just had M730 with dt240 on sale for under $2000 in 29" boost. You just have to keep an eye for the deals. Same great warranty, less bad taste in your mouth.
  • 2 1
 @jgainey: DT 240s + DTcomp + DT XM481 = 700$ 1650g (510g rim) in 29”...
  • 9 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Sorry, but here you are talking out of the rear end. The rims are pretty much the same weight as the Ibis and Specialized rims for the same application. There is nothing XC about them.
One of them failed in constant bikepark use, which is unfortunate but doesn't mean they won't hold up under any kind of other riding.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: XC carbon combo is around 1300g+-,isn't?
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I would very much doubt that weight you claim for that XM481 build. 29er XM1501 wheels in 30mm inner rim width version have a claimed weight of ~1770g (and I very much doubt they overestimate it). They use the same rims, same spokes, alloy squorx nipples and Spline 1 hub which is slightly lighter than 240.
  • 1 0
 @Ferisko: ah fk counted spokes per one wheel... yes 1800-1850 roughly. Aerolites would cut the weight by 50g but add at least 100$
  • 1 0
 @Ttimer: I apologized above. I am sorry... I do. I can’t deal with carbon rims even when they fail like I always say they do... and the fact that these are actually enduro rims makes it even worse...
  • 1 0
 @jgainey: Didnt Enve's start being heavily discounted after the PB feature on their failure? I'm sure these will as well. Also, sounds like DT Swiss will have an equally liberal replacement policy as Enve has ("we handle carbon claims in a very accommodating way.").
  • 6 2
 More proof that carbon wheels are just marketing money pit!
  • 5 0
 Almost convinced myself I needed a pair of full carbon wheels. I am glad I didn't take that route. Not because I am afraid of them breaking, but because they seem entirely unnecessary with minimal improvement.
  • 2 2
 @stumphumper92: they are also loud and stiff as hell at weights which guarantee basic hit resistance. When you start riding carbon rims heavier than 400g you constantly wonder whether you flatted or not, because every second hit sounds like tire bottoming on the rim. On slower trails ride is harsh to say the least. The on,y carbon rims that make sense are the ones for XC racing because alloy rims lose stiffness and durability rather quickly under 400g.
  • 4 2
 Remember the times about 10 years ago, when all the alloy rims failed catastrophically in tests? Yeah, me neither, cuz it never friggin happened!
  • 6 0
 Me neither. But I do remember when mountain bike frames started to be made from Aluminium alloys rather than CrMo. And had a tendency to crack a lot and many folks were saying we don't need those and that CrMo is just fine. And look where we got now? I also remember when the first suspension forks for MTB bikes started to appear. There was also a a very noisy group of folks saying they are useless and don't work (they were kind of right, the early ones were really terrible Big Grin ). And look where we are now? There could be plenty more examples of this, but... my point is, you can't stop progress. One day they either figure it out and we'll have reliable carbon parts such as rims, cranks and handlebars or a new better material will come along and replace it. Just the way it is.
  • 4 0
 I've seen plenty of aluminium rims fail catastrophically. You get the ones that turn themselves in to potato chip shapes. Some of them turn themselves into heart shapes. Some of them pull the spokes through the holes, like one, or a dozen. Some of them dent the sidewalls so bad that tires unseat and refuse to reseat. Some come apart at the seam either causing a gap to form (welded ones crack, pinned ones just pull apart) or the sidewalls become misaligned side to side. I've seen sidewalls blow off rims. I'm sure I'm forgetting some rim failure types I've seen at the moment. Point being every rim will fail if ridden, crashed, cased, or smashed hard enough.

This doesn't even get into aluminium rims that slowly fail from cracking spoke holes. Aluminium overtime will basically always fail because aluminium doesn't have an infinite fatigue life. This means the rim literally gets weaker over time. causing hairline cracks around spoke holes. Also aluminium rims can only take so many small dents and dings before it affects the structural integrity of the overall rim.

I'm not saying aluminium is bad. I currently have five bikes. Four of my bikes have aluminium rims, one has carbon. Through the years I've personally killed at least a dozen aluminium rims, some catastrophically, some from long term abuse. I've owned three carbon rims through the years. All the carbon rims still run mostly true, one of them is starting to develop a soft spot and delaminate itself. Will I buy more aluminium rims in the future, yes. Will I buy more carbon rims in the future, also yes.
  • 1 0
 Oh shit, I forgot the classic rims turning themselves into taco shapes!
  • 2 2
 So what's the point of buying carbon wheelset which:

1. Is not that light at all.
2. Is not that strong.
3. Costs 2200e??

I'm currently running 29" carbon Acros Nineteen enduro wheelset which weights 1500g and costs half of the DT Swiss. Full season on them and 0 problems.
Btw I absolutely love the EX511 rims and DT Swiss hubs, but this is ridiculous.
  • 4 2
 "Upon landing one of these natural gaps we encountered a sound as if someone had fired a gun"
Was he riding with a passenger? Why is he referring to himself as "We"
  • 10 0
 Some people ride with friends. Smile
  • 2 0
 @brianpark: Well those people are losers. No one is fast or cool enough to ride with me.

I mean, that's why my mom told me.
  • 3 0
 If you are worried about your new wheels breaking, don't give it to Pinkbike.
  • 1 1
 If you pay $2,735 USD for wheels, and they fail, don't commit suicide. Suicide watch. I know I probably would, that's why this message is so important.
  • 1 2
 It's only a $3k set of wheels. Hoop failures, stripped threads, and piss-poor rotor fitment are to be expected at this price range. The money they save by NOT doing thorough R&D is passed onto you, their valued customer(s)
:-0
  • 6 7
 "we cased the f*ck out of this jump that lots of other people have cased, and shockingly we broke a wheel!!!????



literally, come the f*ck on.....if you screw the pooch, the pooch screws you.....simple as that. stop blaming the manufactures!
  • 1 2
 I work somewhere that recycles high end mountain bikes and let's just say I see broken carbon frames and wheels on a daily basis. Glad to see a real review exposing the shortcomings of carbon products - Support companies that don't make disposable bikes and components... On that note, I just received some Chromag BZA30 rims and lets just say Im glad I don't have to worry about those exploding.
  • 2 1
 Aaaaahhhhhhh NIGHTMARE!!! $2,735 USD, and they fail!!! My God. If I paid $2,735 USD for rims, and they failed, I'd shoot myself.
  • 1 0
 It´s funny to see this happen over and over again with carbon wheels when you can buy newmen wheels for 1/3 of the price that weights the same and are bulletproof...
  • 3 1
 Alot of stuff breaking lately........ Kinda makes a fella wonder!
  • 2 1
 Prices keep going up while more of these products keep breaking. Definitely makes a fella wonder...
  • 1 0
 Dammit, I just got a set of these, now I'm worried about breaking one. What's the warranty like?
  • 8 0
 Here's what DT had to say:

"With our DT Swiss Service Centers, we handle issues like yours in the same way as we did with you. We would like to see our customers back on the bike as soon as possible, therefore we handle carbon claims in a very accommodating way."
  • 3 0
 @brianpark: that doesn't really say what the warranty is. Lifetime warranty on rims? 5-year?
  • 2 0
 @arandomJohn: Seems too nebulous to me. These days with robust warranties from We Are One, Bontrager, and Crank Brothers, DT’s value prospect needs some help.
  • 4 2
 I have seen 3 of those rims fail. Weak sauce.
  • 2 0
 If they're gonna break, it's nice that they're not too expensive.
  • 2 0
 Leaves me wondering... How often do you break alu rims during your tests?
  • 2 0
 Durable , Light , Inexpensive -- Pick 2
  • 3 0
 Alloy. Rims.
  • 2 0
 Pick a 2kg wheelset and be a dick about it.
  • 3 2
 I would bet if these wheels were ridden with higher psi lets 35, they would not have been broken!
  • 1 0
 So glad I opted to go with Nox instead of this standard option that Yeti offered with their builds
  • 1 1
 Please tell me these wheels come with a bike attached to them. That price is stupid ridiculous. And they broke. what a joke.
  • 2 0
 Sounds like a perfect rim for down-country???? bikes...
  • 1 0
 Cases the absolute crap out of a DH track natural gap and wonders why the rim broke...
  • 1 0
 Cases the absolute crap out of a DH track natural gap and wonders why the Enduro rim broke...
  • 5 3
 Cracking weight!
  • 1 0
 Roval Traverse SL’s are 40g more, have 6-bolt mounts and J-Bend spokes.
  • 1 2
 @dan-roberts maybe some soldering would solve the issue with the noisy spokes and also make the wheels stiffer as a nice side effect
  • 1 0
 Why tell Dan? DT makes the wheels. LOL
  • 1 0
 Go on I’d love to see someone actually do this haha soldering spokes together wtf
  • 1 0
 Is :47 of today's Friday Fails- actual video of this wheel failing?
  • 2 5
 Think I'm too late to the part here... but isn't the reason for this failure pretty obvious?

Dan switched out the resin valve cap that strips easily to the aluminum one that doesn't and the failure happened right where that metal cap would have been levered into the carbon if the valve stem was impacted. Not saying that's what happened right when this wheel failed, but it could have caused enough damage earlier that then caused the wheel to fail during an impact it would normally have held up against.

Don't think Dan or anyone at Pinkbike happened to mention that to DT.
  • 3 0
 It failed at a spoke hole, not at the valve.
  • 1 0
 Bontrager Line Carbon 30, 23grams more, and come stock on 9.8 Bikes!
  • 2 1
 Friday Fail #105A
  • 1 4
 My new carbon wheels are too light, that’s why I put extra 3,576kg solid steel bar insted my fancy dropper seat post.
I can fell that traction on front wheel is soooo much better now... Sarc off.
  • 2 2
 So every carbon rim failure is same as aluminum rim dings...
  • 1 0
 Breaking review!
  • 2 2
 carbon rims are way over priced!
  • 1 1
 Pull up your pants, and pump up your damn tires.
  • 5 6
 I don't ENVE DT right now.
  • 2 3
 Thats not even light... Wtf
  • 1 1
 Notice
  • 2 5
 This article was littered with absolutes: devoid, none, never. Ignoring the breakage, it's literally the perfect wheel, according to this review.
  • 1 3
 Industry 9 Enduro 305’s.

Any questions?
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