Enve started producing carbon rims back in 2009, and by 2010 had produced the first carbon wheelsets to be ridden to victory in a UCI World Cup DH race, under the Santa Cruz Syndicate. Since then, they have been continually improving their products while still manufacturing in the USA. These M735E wheels are their eMTB specific enduro wheels from the latest M-ranges that use the new patented and 'un-pinchable' Protective Rim Strip (PRS).
Like all Enve products, these wheels are about as far from cheap as you can get, but the Utah-based brand prides itself on in-house development and production from the start to finish of the product cycle. They are also proud of the fact that their wheelsets essentially cost the same as they did 10-years ago when they started. The 29" x 35mm internal rim-width wheelset isn't particularly light at 2087g (Enve's website quotes 2,218g) for the pair and the whopping price tag of $3,080 USD.
Enve M735E Wheel Details
• 27.5" or 29" (tested) options
• Carbon rims, 35mm internal width
• Protective Rim Strip
• 32 spokes / 2 cross lace pattern
• Chris King hubs
• Sapim CX-Ray bladed J-bend spokes
• Made in Utah, USA
• Weight: 966g front, 1121g rear, 2087g pair (29", Chris King hubs, Protective Rim Strip and valves, actual
• MSRP: $3,080 USD
The hookless carbon rims have an internal width of 35mm, and arrive with the protective rim strip and tubeless valve stems included.
Chris King's hubs give that distinctive buzz and use 72 points of engagement.Performance
Judging the on-trail performance of these wheels was tough, as the following saga unfolded throughout the testing period. Initially, I started by using the front wheel on my hybrid setup on the Specialized Turbo Kenevo, I had great success and liked the more accurate feel of the stiffer front wheel and smaller volume tire combined with the softer rear wheel and fatter plus-tire, which gave great cornering characteristics.
I completed two runs of the classic Ingenere trail in Finale Ligure, which is about 6km in total, marked as a blue run on Trailforks, but still has a few brutal rock sections that can eat a wheel or shred a tire quickly – these rides that totalled about 30km with the climbing, and a couple of other short trail sections may have damaged the rim and I had not noticed. The third ride was under a secondary test pilot and local pinner, Federico Greppi, who hit a small fly off for a photo shoot
, he was greeted upon landing with a complete front wheel failure: the rim snapped, the front tire lost all its air and he crashed before he could stop – thankfully he was OK.
Enve sent a new replacement rim from the US and it was built up by a local shop mechanic. I added the PRS to the wheel myself and was subsequently stabbed in the finger by a carbon fiber that was protruding from the outside edge of the rim. On closer inspection, there were a number of similar strands of fiber sticking out. I spoke to Jake Pantone, head of Enve's VP Product and Consumer Experience, who explained this could have been due to one of three reasons that are now impossible to point a finger at: this rim was either missed by quality control, damaged in the post or during building, or struck a hard surface without the PRS installed. The PRS also split when removing the valve stem from the original rim and had to be patched with tape for a reliable seal.
The rim on the left failed on the front wheel, and on the right was the rear failure after no more than 50kms on each wheel
With a new front wheel built, I fitted the wheelset to the Mondraker e-Level R (review coming soon) and managed 35kms of riding with no issue. The Mondraker had previously felt a little vague, and the stiffer Enve wheelset did sharpen up the handling and response, and during that ride the bike was plowed into plenty of rocks which don't make the nicest sound when they connected with the high-volume carbon rim. One of those rock strikes could have caused a crack, and on the following ride was the second catastrophic failure. This time was on another classic trail called Dolmen which is a rocky brute, but it's a trail I have done many runs on many variations of bike and wheel sans issue. Without warning, there was another huge crack which resulted in a near-instant loss of pressure in the rear tire which then also came off the rim with the PRS.
So this is starting to sound really, really, bad at this point, but we are not quite finished. Another replacement rim was sent from Enve, and it passed the 'are there any sharp, stabby bits of carbon fiber sticking out visual test' which gave me enough confidence to run my finger over it without any problems. But, there was one annoying piece of something rattling around the inside the rim which I couldn't get out. The spoke holes weren't drilled out centrally, and there were more loose fiber strands in each spoke hole - whether or not this would make any difference to the ride or not is hard to say, but at this point, I was done. Thoughts
I have lots of opinion on carbon fiber parts, and I understand many people have absolutely no problems using Enve wheelsets and other carbon products. I rarely choose to use carbon wheels, but these two failures added to two other catastrophic failures I have had with carbon wheels in the past.
I understand the price can be justified by Enve and their US-manufacturing and testing methods, but at this price, I would expect every product to be perfect. These failures were dangerous and should never happen in such a short period of time. It could have been two instances of bad luck, but both times they were on trails I ride often, with similar bikes and pressures I was using in other test scenarios. I was also riding my usual speed and style, which rarely does a similar amount of damage.Enve's Response
|Thank you Paul for giving us the opportunity to comment on this experience.|
I believe in owning the mistakes that were made on ENVE’s end and would like to clarify or add a different point of view to some of the claims or statements that were made in this review.
First, there is this concept around perfection that consistently comes up whenever anything goes wrong with an ENVE product based on the price of our products. Let’s be clear, perfection is a myth. For ENVE, it’s certainly the goal, but we’ve never pinned a label on ourselves claiming we are perfect. Quite the contrary, we strive daily to be better in all aspects, but it’s a journey and we don’t mask the imperfections of our products behind a façade of filler and paint. That said, it puts that much more responsibility on our QC teams who are people and sometimes people make mistakes. Should Paul have received a rim with a fiber peel and imperfectly drilled spoke holes? Absolutely not. When we screw up, we own it and take care of the customer no questions asked. It is ENVE’s long-standing warranty and leading reputation for customer support that has forced the carbon wheel market to offer the aggressive lifetime warranties that they do today.
There is this idea that if a product is damaged or breaks within a certain distance, it is worse than a product that breaks or wears out eventually. Carbon doesn’t fatigue. If you break one product on your first ride, and another on its 10th or 100th ride it doesn’t always mean the product that broke earlier was inferior. You can drive a new car off a lot and wreck it the first time you pull out onto the street. What is in play here is that the testers for this E-MTB specific spec M735 have exceeded the abilities of the product, but this is not the experience that our customers are having. My next step for Paul would have been to upgrade him to an M9 Series wheel, which is what our World Cup DH teams race on. Do we have some additional work to do in terms of meeting the demands of rider’s like Paul on E-MTBs? Yes, and ENVE is committed to being the best. While this product didn’t pass his test, it is pushing the limits to improve performance and range for E-MTB riders. Regarding the non-E-MTB application of our M7 wheel family, our protective rim strip technology is amazing. If not careful when installing a strip, you can tear it, but it provides unprecedented protection and with its introduction warranty rates between our old M70 and the new M7 Series have been reduced from just over 3% to 1%.
Finally, price. The wheelset in question for this review is a specific build using Chris King hubs. The Chris King hub is spec’d for the E-MTB build because it passes all the durability/reliability requirements for use with E-MTB. These hubs are not inexpensive and drive the cost of the wheelset to where it is. We are looking for ways to make ENVE wheelsets more accessible to more people. As proof, you can see that with the launch of I9 hubs to our M Series offering, we’ve been able to lower the MSRP of an ENVE M Series wheelset to $2550 which is nearly a 10% reduction from what we’ve had to charge in the past.
Thanks again Paul and Pinkbike for letting us share our thoughts.—Jake Pantone, VP Product and Consumer Experience
|At double the price of a high-end alloy wheelset, the Enve M735 wheelset did not deliver anything better. Due to the multiple breaks and other minor issues I'm unable to recommend this wheelset, especially if your local trails tend to be rough and rocky.— Paul Aston|
Enve rims are routinely very premium prices and these are utter garbage.
Nothing but piss poor excuses totally undeserving of a brand that demands the price point they do.
*according to multiple sources on multiple forums in multiple countries.
Way more expensive
Quality seems fishy
Breaks on first ride
What else could you ask for?
I'm pretty sure the final nail in the coffin of the 2017 season for Greg Minaaar was due to a wheel failure?
ENVE.. YOUR DAYS ARE DWINDLING AS BENCHMARK AND PINNACLE OF CARBON.... Always over priced, sh!t ride and pricing thats is criminal! Move over there are new better cheaper nicer quality rims out there!
Goodbye and good riddance, enve.
I have read multiple reviews where they have failed.
I wonder what is the failure rate on the rims that are being ridden for intended purpose and not hanging on the wall of a four car garage.
150+ rides on my "china-direct" $200 carbon rims and they are flipping rockstars! Even under my 200+ pound voluptuous arse and after tons of cased jumps/drops. I do run Huck Norris inserts however and ~1000g tires.
It's been good to watch a local company grow over the years but I just don't see any value whatsoever to the customer in their wheels over WAO or SC Reserve which have a $1500 pricepoint and lifetime warranty. Or those like me that build a carbon set around the $1000 mark and get to customize the sh*t out of them (rim weight, width, hole count, spokes, nips, hubs).
@lkubica: "This clearly shows how stupid is to think that US or EU made product is superior to one made in China/Taiwan. The same goes with alu welding."
It might not be superior. But it should be in this industry due to the price difference. There is no other factor, in my opinion, that could justify the price difference.
Face it if everyone took their setup as they normally ride it and added 30# to it and then hucked it. No one is doing the math an e-bike is approx. 30# heavier from 4 feet lands with an approximate force of 6,000 lbs. additional to your standard setup.
We are comparing apples and oranges.
Well said. Wr1 is the only set I would buy.
The Specialized Turbo Kenevo he was riding also has 180mm of travel to absorb impacts.
But anyway there was a full 2 page layout fear mongering open mold Chinese products.
I have had multiple frames bars seatposts and 2 wheelsets all perform well.
That being said my Intense and my Derby/King wheelset are built better.
Particularly the Derby rims seem to have a more durable plastic/rubber quality to the outside layer that will absorb blows and actually dent.
Whereas the chinese rims i had would chip and flake a little more.
I did crack the rear rim on both Chinese wheelsets both on curbs which is my fault.
It's not apples to oranges at all. And please post the math where you came up with a "force of 6000 lbs"... Lol
Scroll down to the first comments replys as the product tester responds about how he suffered serious injury after a catastrophic failure of the back wheel. He posted photos of the aftermath to be included in the review, but they were cut out by pinkbike/enve.
Having been through many injuries, I don't trust carbon wheels for DH application. Not one from any company. There is no yield with carbon. Is either they're ok or they've ultimately failed, and fast. That could be bad.
They may be suitable for XC, but personally I'll stick with Al. Would rather have it yield before failing so I can replace and avoid serious injury. Same reason I don't trust carbon bars (I've run those too)
Some say he can break the Mormon Carbon in half by just sitting down on it, or that his bike won’t fit in Mercedes Sprinter without removing passengers front seat. All we know is that his name is... The Stick!
EVERY PERSON READING THIS ARTICLE - "Yes he/we should."
The holes are not a micron out but rather millimetres and stresses caused by this very poor QC can be damaging to the rider, his wallet, his bike and Enve of course. I personally think the chaps of ENVE should take a tour of the HOPE factory and take from that what they can and apply it to their factories.
Very disappointed by Enve's response but let us give them one more chance to rectify this issue.
Im riding Sunringlé Inferno 31s aluminium which are about 570grams each and been smashing them with still no problems
I once turned in a frame for warranty replacemt to our supplier.
7 frame breaks and stress fractures.
They still talk about that Norwegian idiot/maniac/warranty dep walking talking nightmare.
It was a 98 TY-glide.
Listing cracks and breaks from front to rear end.
Starting with cracked welds in headtube., cracked welds on both sides of the mainframe, chainstays on both sides, non drive cracked, left broken and finally the seatstays.
Both displaying cracks.
In TREK's defence, I abused that ride way beyond its intended purpose.
It caught more air than an SAS flight.
And no, it won’t hurt them at all. I don’t think Enve clients read Pinkbike
“We used to look up at the sky and wonder at our place in the stars. Now we just look down, and worry about our place in the dirt”
So much for “environmentalists” like Pole
Yes, I'll consider the environmental aspect, no problem with that. I really don't get your hate towards Pole, is it new ideas and approaches that bother you? I don't think they shit on all the other bike brands. They pointed out issues with carbon fiber and overseas production and found another way. I think it's cool.
Maybe you should look at yourself and wonder if you are looking up or down
This kind of double standard ideological environmentalism is only causing problems. It puts people off, making them vote for morons like Trump, because they are tired of this BS. It is extremely damaging, it puts people away from root of the problems, making them dream about green life, and satisfying themselves with meaningless solutions. Clicking likes on environmental posts doesn’t save the world.
All they want is to show their different method to gain attention and separate them from all the others. But pole talking about environment is hilarious. Marketing. Just like @WAKIdesigns said, look for murmur or sick...
All they want is to show their different method to gain attention and separate them from all the others. But pole talking about environment is hilarious. Marketing. Just like @WAKIdesigns said, look for murmur or sick...
Exactly - Not a word. What Pole did and what many do is environmental publicity whoring, an entertainment for people who masturbate at the thought of climate catastrophe and can’t stop listening to this Swedish girl from Climate Summit in Katowice: “you ignored us in the past, you are stealing our future”. Oooh... I am so touched. What a wise person, and she is only 15... I will share it on Facebook to show my friends how much I care
I agree with you that pole is using it as an angle for marketing. I don't care, I would still like to try one because they are a unique design and pole actually make them themselves. I know some other companies do too, and good on them. Poles look rude compared to BTR though. Fully sick.
Oh, and bikes. I like the Finnish guy, because he has the zeal to convince and he isn't even working for them (let's be kind), even if Pole are not actually the spark for the imminently necessary colonization of new non-Earth planets. It's virtuous BS against vicious BS, at worst. The gloves are off, the "libtards" are going to have to start telling massive fibs to stop things getting a little ugly, plain and simple. But slinging mud at both sides can possibly provide solace of sorts.
Yes, I am equating 3% faster times on a given run with saving humanity, so there's a wormhole in my argument.
All of it was “17 yr old bat sht crazy girl got dropped by an Asian dude” kind of enterprise. A kind of “An instagram gymstar discoveres how much sugar is in Pepsi, and now she tells the world calling the giant out on promotion of diabetes! She knew it’s been a lot, but not that lot! She feels cheated and produces her own sports drink based on natural sugars. 3% less but more natural. Namaste Namas!”
The moment I saw a 12yr old clearing a table top jump that I have trouble putting my front wheel over, I lost all hope in MTB technology... and when the father of Long Low and Slack, Cesar, called Jerrymetron a step too far I stopped believing in these folks completely. Riding a way too long (yet shorter than Pole) Big Honzo didn’t help either... i see how some may like it.
Also I don't cheat on my wife out of respect for her. Well I guess that used to be the case ten years ago. Now I just don't want to cheat. My wife is hot anyway. Much hotter than any of my mates' wives. Cool too.
That said, my old bike was sexy AF and I still sold it just because I wanted a change.
I would buy a Pole if I could afford one!
The fact the tester had two shit wheels that failed almost instantly and a third that looked too dodgy to even put on the bike says everything we need to know about them.
Wheelworks in NZ make a better wheel, for less money and have warranty claims you can count on one hand.
"blah blah blah...our protective rim strip technology is amazing" - Enve
Having said that, this review of Wheelworks ended with a busted wheel too! They claim a "handful" of issues, but didn't quibble about the way the wheel was being used at all. If it's on a bike, the scope of "intended use" would be massive. The hit it took did sound quite brutal - "5 foot drop, suspension bottomed out onto a square edged rock."
They claim the entire Syndicate team only got through 11 wheels
Maybe they used to be better - if the claim is true. The wheels only came in 26" and 21mm internal width! Only 7 years ago!
'If you break one product on your first ride, and another on its 10th or 100th ride it doesn’t always mean the product that broke earlier was inferior'
Surely that is exactly what it means? I have some mid range Easton ARC27 rims that I have ridden hard over the last 2 and a half seasons; they aren't perfect but they were cheap, not too heavy, are easy enough to true, and still seal up well with my favourite tyres.
Now if I buy any other wheel and it fails catastrophically after 1 or 2 rides on the exact same trails? You're damn straight it is inferior. And if that other wheel happens to be 8 or 9 times the cost of the ARCs, well I'm going to vote with my feet and walk the f*ck away.
But hey, ENVE reduced the price of a wheelset to a mere $2550 USD, that has to count for something? Hahaha, omg the guys at ENVE are insane.
There is no excuse for the mealy-mouthed response from Enve here, especially given their prices.
A better PR answer would have been along the lines of "we have investigated each rim failures attentively, this shouldn't have happened, as such, we have made changes in our QC personnel and procedures as well as corrective actions on the durability of said rims."
...also, expecting perfection? You market your product at a premium price bud, you're damn right I expect perfection.
1. His email was approved by upper mgmt signaling that upper mgmt doesn’t understand their business and PR.
2. His email wasn’t seen by upper mgmt signaling that upper mgmt doesn’t know how to run their business and PR.
This is not hard to do, especially for a company that boasts so much in-house work. Complete lazy failure.
The last person I ran in to riding Wheeworks cracked his on his second day riding. They’re nice enough wheels, but not much different to anything else in the price bracket.
There’s a number of reasons the vast majority of EWS riders are on alloy rims.
"Do we have some additional work to do in terms of meeting the demands of rider’s like Paul on E-MTBs? Yes."
These are "enduro" wheels. Paul is reportedly a large and aggressive downhiller. He may have also had something to prove..."If I can't manage to break these wheels, I won't hear the end of it in the comments for riding e-bike. Must give them something else to complain about..."
I'm starting to sound like Envy fanboy here. I'm certainly not, but I just think a bigger deal is being made over a couple broken rims than is appropriate.
Instead he should have just have said something like: Look were sorry. But sometimes people make mistakes. If this happens we will ask no questions whatsoever and replace the wheelset for free. We will learn from this yadayada you get the point. Not this people expect too much from us bullcrap. DUDE youre selling 3K wheelsets so shut the f*ck up.
Sorry but this is an obvious design error. Not just a production error limited to these three rims PB got. It is a design error. See, you can't just cut/trim/drill a composite like that and leave the trimmed edges free. Free edges are going to delaminate when subjected to stress and the delamination will creep between the layers. Just like cutting your jeans. After a few wash cycles, the material will raffle. If you don't want that, you need to close the loop (like most clothes are finished). Look at carbon lever blades. I know they don't make sense but they're a good example. Until 2007 Magura just laminated the carbon lever blades, trimmed them to size and drilled the holes. If you crashed hard, they'd delaminate. From 2008 onwards, they used a braid so that there were no more free edges. It was a continuous fibre and for all the holes for pivots etc they shifted the fibres to the sides. Yes it is a more complex process but that's what it takes to do things properly. And indeed you can't do this if you are working with prepregs (which are fibres which arrive at the manufacturer already impregnated) as you can no longer shift the fibres. So the most ideal solution would have been for them to not drill the fibres at all. The challenge then of course is going to be, how are you ever going to attach spokes? Sprengle isn't so bad after all. The other solution is do as Magura does (probably other companies too, but I don't know) and redirect the fibres around the spoke holes. Next solution would be to actually drill the material (ouch) but fixate these edges using eyelets or something. But you'll have to clamp each laminate from both sides or it won't work. Think of the double shear lap joint Robotbike.co (now Atherton) uses to connect the carbon tubes to the lugs. Worst solution is to overdimension the laminate so much that stresses become so low that you won't get delamination. This is probably what most (or nearly all) of the manufacturers do to make a complex carbon product at a pricepoint that they can still sell to some. This is what Enve does too, apparently. Yes indeed I believe that the most expensive consumer grade wheels (which feature carbon rims these days) are actually the worst execution of using the material in a product. And no I can't be arsed to pay for what it would take to do it properly but I won't pay for a messed up product like they currently deliver. See, they're using a construction technique that's proven to work really well with an amorphous material like aluminium. And guess what, there are quite a few companies who are offering just that. In engineering we call the the way Enve produces rims "black metal design" (without any reference to music). Instead it is meant to say they use the black material (carbon) as if it were a metal. And it isn't good.
I guess they realize by now that they've messed up real bad. Sure a product can fail when tested by a major website like Pinkbike. And you can take the product back and say "Wow, this has never happened to us before. But we'll closely examine these samples and will do our best to reconstruct what happened. If it turns out to be a design flaw, our team will do our best to redimension the rim and make sure this won't happen anymore." You know, still blah but more honest and constructive. I wonder how many people will still buy their rims.
tl;dr: They messed up. In their design and in their reaction.
What I think they should start doing is selling rims for a reasonable price and cut the BS about how they are better than anything else, which as we have seen in numerous articles, they are clearly not.
Lace up a set of rims with normal spokes and decent hubs and sell them for what We Are One sells them for. We understand that made in USA carries a price premium on labour. But that labour isn't adding $1000 onto a pair of rims. Probably closer to $100, that's my guess. How much do factory workers in the USA make? $100 a day? And how many rims do they lay up in a day? It must be more than one.
These are heavy rims being ridden as designed. They were on an enduro e-bike, that was presumably built with other parts designed for similar applications, the rims failed, the rest of the bike did not. The replacement rims failed, and the one that didn't fail should have been caught in QC and would have also been a warranty return due to being drilled by a blind gopher.
Also, as somebody else mentioned, wasn't most of the justification for price and argument of their merits on ENVE rims the molded spoke holes and the resulting uninterrupted fibers? I know at one point I asked i9 about building me a set of torch hubs with alloy spokes on ENVE rims and was told they're not compatible because of the molded spoke holes. When did they switch to drilling?
I guess by now they must have realized their reputation is completely destroyed. No one wants to be seen riding those. "Oh, you've got Enve rims? What a waste of those beautiful Chris King hubs that is!"
Sorry for going a bit off topic. Pulling it back to the main topic. If you're a competitive cyclist and think you need carbon rims to get good results, what do you think you're trying to prove?
tl;dr: Yeah sorry...
But if what you say is true for carbon bicycle wheels, maybe that explains why Envy's versions cost so much!
For me the cost of rims was about £120 each, so about 50% more than a high end Alu rim, and I could justify it. I think the wheels on my bike cost about (£800 all in, with hope hubs and mid level dt swiss spokes...?). I've found them very reliable so far, with only a broken spoke in 3 years.
I've a buddy that has toasted 2/3 carbon e13 rims though...
I couldn't justify Enve prices. Research what you buy folks!
People like paying for stupid shit
My 30 mm internal wide AL Newmen Evolution SL A.30 have 1580g. I used to smack a wheelset in two months that i could replace it. This is 1 year and I had one smaller dent. Still got it to sent to much but that is for 700€, rims are 80€...
Carbon parts - pros and cons
Frame: rides awesome. worth it if you ride trail, XC, or if you ride gnar and have money for the next one. probability that it will break is greater than a frame from metal. period.
Bar: come on. take a nice ti bar and just forget about carbon. this is a thing you hold on to. don't be stupid.
Stem: makes no sense. using carbon here creates so called black aluminum. the term describes a situation when you need to put so much carbon that the weight becomes similar to the metal option.
Rims: just DON'T use them
Cranks: this is a connection of situation with stem and bar. they are not light enough to justify using them. want light? buy cane creek ti cranks. this is also a component that should NEVER fail you.
I've actually saved money going to carbon rims.
My average life span of alloy rims was 6 months for a rear.
I got 2.5 years out of my last carbon LB rim, did the ard rock enduro, morzine and the lake district. It rides much better to me than any alloy and didn't need looking after or truing. Only problem I had was alloy nipples breaking but that was my own fault for being a weight weenie in the wrong place.
I'm 92kg and ride rocky terrain 90% of the time and love high speed trails I'm not input slow techy stuff.
It lists it as 385 +/- 15g for a 30mm (external) wide rim (27.5").
As a comparison a quick search shows a Stans Flow EX at 480g, although the exact dimensions aren't exactly similar I accept - it was just the first rim I found. I'm sure someone with more time or inclination will find a better match!
For reference my previous (26") wheelsets I switched between a super light xc carbon set (something like 1.4kg for the set?) and some dt Swiss 5.1's on hope hubs (about 2kg). I think these are maybe around 1.6kg and I've not been a weight weenie? I could have saved weight with posher hubs/spokes/alloy nipples, or a lighter rim but I wanted it to be as trouble free as possible, with it being my only wheelset. So far it's been great. I use proper 2.5 tyres and ride a 160mm(f) 150mm(r) full suss bike. I ride Midlands in the uk so not particularly rocky, but I do some Dh (just the easier stuff rather than full on black runs and big jumps and drops) and uplift days every now and again, and I've taken them on trips to Scotland, Wales, Spain and Madeira... When I have hit rocks it makes a horrendous sound but nothing worse than minor surface scratches so far!
However, each to their own and whilst my personal experiences have been very positive I understand they aren't for everyone dependant on numerous personal factors. I certainly couldn't justify the difference if my rims had been priced in line with Enve, but for what I paid for them I did and would again...
Use: Cross Country/ All Mountain , 24mm wide internal. You can not compare a rim I use with the LB you just posted.
My rim is classified for Enduro. I use them on the 180mm travel bike. I would not want fragile parts on it. I ripped multiple times carbon crank's out of the socket bonding AL for the pedals or the crank out of the axle. No thanks, a old Shimano XT crank can take much more.
I will try LB rims for the next bike but I am sceptical and the wheelset they have for my intended use are more heavy then AL rims. I want to feel the stiff wheel's...
I know I abused my old Dt Swiss alu rims for a good few years and they bore many dents/war scars. They were a well regarded rim, but perhaps a bit on the heavy side. I'm now on my LB rims which feel stiffer (subjective opinion!), are lighter, and have been subjected to broadly the same riding. They have come out with nothing worse than a broken spoke, and some surface scratches. I believe that they've coped better, and that they will outlast the dt swiss rims. Clearly this is an opinion. I could be wrong and time will tell, but I have a good degree of confidence from the very large relatively positive online comments I read. Yes, there are a few stories of rims breaking (etc) but similarly the accounts of those who have used the LB customer services to sort the issue have been generally positive. Also there will always be some naysayers.
I'm relation to cost I don't have much money so I try to be careful, although I do spend a bit more on my bike when I can. I couldn't justify $450/rim as above, but that could be value to someone with the lifetime warrantee. Plus people like to support local and will sometimes pay a little extra to do so. I think Sixth Element wheels here in the UK are similar in price and warrantee, although they weren't around at the time off my purchase...
Ps. Please don't read this as negative or condescensing as it's not meant in that way!
In Enve's offense; when you advertise a rim for enduro, it better be able to do some enduro.
Paul Aston: "So this is starting to sound really, really, bad at this point, but we are not quite finished."
Am I missing something?
You don't get what the op said did you?
The carbon layers cracked on the 1st impact- so it wont have original stability- good luck on an harder Impact, atleast Alu bends and youll See it before anything goes wrong (normally).
But people in the comments already figured it out- I can make a video too and make the test in favour of Alu, Just keep that in mind.
The goal of any composites manufacturer is to mitigate this as much as possible. Toying with resins, prepreg, molds, layups, temperature, pressure, profiles etc. allow the manufacturer alter the lifespan. It's an art and science that takes plenty of time, experimentation and QC.
They still aren't super cheap, but they aren't the silly money that Enve are asking for rims that are seemingly made out of glass and never get good reviews!
Original Enve's - too stiff, cracked on review - 'New' Enve's - 1. Broke, 2. Sent crap QC items for review (wonder who will get canned for that mistake) 3. Ah well, it was Friday and we got drunk at lunch so just sent something we found in the rejects pile - Response, our products are great, you broke them and its Chris Kings fault they cost so much!
I'm using a now 3 year old Hope wheelset, did 2 Megavalanche, a few lokal enduro races, 10 days riding and crashing in Madeira . . .haven´t even had to straiten them once, could be good luck - or just a good product.
We Are One Agent wheelset, CK hubs: $2297.00 Canadian
No excuses, options can be had at nearly half the price, with lifetime warranty, the same hubs, and better rim quality.
I too would like to see a review of the Light Bikes brand. Couldn't be worse than this Enve review!
Two rims, same trails, each lasting roughly the same amount of time under the same riders? Oooookkkkk, could be a weird coincidence or a bad production run, maybe an issue with Enve’s processes.
THREE rims? Sorry, no. That’s a total failure. Enve failed at design, materials sourcing, manufacturing, and QC.
Let’s just call it what it is. These rim failures were a total, catastrophic failure that could have killed someone.
Bigger picture, this points to one of the cycling industry’s biggest problems: the seemingly complete lack of quality control and a total lack of understanding as to how materials, carbon in particular, actually behave.
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for anyone who rides any cycling component made of carbon to now question if it’s safe. Aluminum? Probably just as bad.
And the photos that were removed:
Nice to see an honest review for once. The truth is, for anyone smacking still smacking a DH bike around hard, the kind of journalism Mike Levy throws around on here is mostly inapplicable. The number of crappy products he raves about that I've destroyed in short order has made me ignore PB's "journalism" for the most part - I think Aston is a refreshing change, and though sometimes a bit quirky, a more realistic source of information. I'm not saying there's no place for average punters reviewing products for average punters, but there's always been a lot of quick young kids on PB and I think it's nice to get the facts out there so they don't waste money on junk. When you don't get gear for free, it needs to last!
Also have haven carbons and roam 60 carbon wheels.. all awesome and all bought super cheap 2nd hand.
The best upgrade one can make
Personally, I'm going to scratch Enve rims off my list for future usage (I've ran them in the past) as they seem to be no better than wheels that cost 1/2 as much. I have had good luck with my NOBLs even though I did break 1 rear rim in 18 months and upgraded to the XD version and a Pepi's noodle and have had no more problems since.
I have a set of great aluminium rims which have cumulatively been on the bike longer than all the carbon wheelsets I ran (and subsequently broke) put together.
This is beyond a failure. I no longer have any enve for the ENVE brand..
I imagine they send out a lot of replacements and that is where the extra MSRP comes from.
I also imagine that those replacements being sent out are likely the "seconds" that dont pass quality control...
We are utterly spoilt by a wide range of very good products for competitive prices. I got myself some XM481 rims laced to a stock DT Swiss M1900 wheelset (stock spokes were a plug and play fit too) which run almost perfectly true 2 years later. I'm not the heaviest, nor the most aggressive rider but I don't carry my bike down the trails either so I for one am deeply impressed by what can be had for very little money.
As for Enve: Products fail every now and again and it's ok to a point (depending on how well the company deals with failure). This however looks like major f*ckuppery and I guess there have to be some sort of consequences. I'm sure that this is beyond uncomfortable for them and they will be under pressure to make up for it, especially considering that there's competition out there that is cheaper or more reliable or with better warranty (or maybe even all three). Wish them the best nonetheless.
Either way, this is really really poor on their side.
Also, this is a review of a wheelset, triggered much?
I’m not hating, and if people have fun that’s great. But it’s fundamentally different, and I come to PB for mountain biking, not E biking.
PB can make the editorial (and financial) decision about where they want to go, but I may choose to no longer support them and visit the site click on their ads.
A price tag north of three grand for a wheel set is pretty much the definition of a label claiming perfection.
If you charge me this kind of money, I demand perfection, even if it is a myth. If a rim is missed by QC I would definitely take a look at your QC process or team because this is not acceptable if you charge this kind of money. And if you sell it as a enduro/gravity wheelset(based on the product on your website), don't whine about it that the reviewer should use a DH wheelset when he is putting it to the limit, that's what a review is for. And 3 rim failures for a $3000 wheelset is just not acceptable, even for a $2550 with an in-house developed hub.
Thanks PB for the honest opinion.
Look right next to that flag, he is lucky.
Seriously damning review this one.
Santa Cruz Reserve is stronger , ride better and are way cheaper.
Enve bars and stems are great but f*ck the wheels!
So let me get this right: Enve wheels are really expensive, easily broken, and the only response from the manufacturer was to get their heavy duty rim next time?
I think Enve stock just took a dump.
If I was in the market for carbon rims, I’d buy the ones that wee ridden hard by some trials rider, sans tires, for hours and just kept on ticking... Santa Cruz I believe.
I had like 7,000 miles on a Light Bicycle wheelset on my CX bike and never had issues. Rigid frame, tiny 35-40mm tires, riding mtb trails at times (nothing black diamond of course but still).
And yeah, the difference in the ride quality between a carbon rim and an aluminium rim is extremely different.
And yeah, I don't believe the random defense/finger pointing the Enve guy went on spoke to the issues of the test. I don't believe the it was the right response or time to grand stand about a rim strip. I paid a lot for my wheels, you can afford a better PR person at Enve.
Sorry for the long winded post
Sincerely that experience does sound awesome at all. Mine has been very different. I shared mine as a perspective as many seem to go to the negative on these posts. I wanted to point out that my experience has been very good.
When it comes to products that we all pay for, it helps to get the feedback from others. I am honest in my assessments to help others. With my 27 years of mountain biking pretty aggressively I think at times it has helped others when I have provided feedback. Just don' get me started on the garbage they call SRAM Guide Brakes. Still figuring out how to make jewelry or something out of those since they are useless two months into using them when the levels seize. LOL
Sounds good. Thanks for the tip. And if you are ever in the market to buy your lady some Sram Guide brake lever earrings...you let me know. I can offer the brake calipers, affixed to the top of rings to wear on her fingers, free with purchase of the earrings. LOL
He swapped over to i9 wheels a few seasons ago, and has literally only broken 2 spokes in 2 seasons. I'll stick with i9 myself.
Never been a fan of carbon wheels for offroad use. The types of side-loading, and impacts an MTB wheel takes just isn't the best environment for them. Cool looking, stickered up, whatever... they just freakin FAIL.
Except that 'mistake' at QC costs the $3K wheelset buyer another 2-3 weeks missed riding time, which ight be critical if they are a professional biker (guide, reviewer, racer) unless they also have the money to own a back up set of wheels (which I used to have when I was riding ENVE). I have been riding on another brand's wheels for two hard years now and I no longer feel the need to keep a 'back up' set of alloy wheels to cover me for warranty repairs.
The other thing that's funny about this reviewers feedback is he tested the new GT Fury a few weeks back and broke the main pivot on that bike twice. I have been riding a pre production Fury (the same one he was testing) through several days (6) in the Whistler Bike Park last season with no issues. In fact looking at Paul Astons stats I weigh WAY more than him and still have a perfectly in tact Fury. Sure it can be argued "I may not ride as fast" or "go as big" as him but I highly doubt it? Sounds to me like this reviewer likes to ride off the bike of the bike and just plow through stuff? Maybe? Maybe not? Just an opinion but if you try.....no matter how expensive or cheap a part or bike is you can break anything.
Seriously though, what’s going to happen when all these “new riders” that we are depending on to “grow the sport” start having problems like this. It will be more demoralizing that having to pedal up hill. Could you imagine if this was the generic “old guy with a heart problem who wouldn’t be riding if. It for an ebike”? He would have been killed by these wheels!
1, ‘new riders’ are not going to be riding enve rims and even if they were you really think they could snap them?
2, Same applies for old guy on an e bike
3, Its YOUR job to grow the sport, not the new people coming in to it.
That reply from Envy rep is a sort of reply that will sit well with the Envy core customer base...people who have more money than sense...and like to brag about components rather than just go out and enjoy riding.
But then Paul says this, "I understand the price can be justified by Enve and their US-manufacturing and testing methods, but at this price, I would expect every product to be perfect. These failures were dangerous and should never happen in such a short period of time." How can that ridiculous price be justified when it puts riders in danger? It really is time to put away the notion that carbon is better than aluminum for MTB rims. They simply can't hold up. I have SPANK Vibrocores and they have far superior feel to them in corners and in the rough stuff. I don't get the obsession with carbon rims.
I have carbon frames and bars but wheels are where I draw the line. One of my riding buddies went through 3 Enve am rims in a season and two DH rims (separate bikes). Enve were brilliant and replaced no quibble but that doesn't make up for lost riding time and being stranded half way around a 40km loop. I'd rather take the negligible hit on weight and use an rim that will accept the treatment dealt out by an aggressive rider.
Looks like they really redeemed themselves at being soo cheap to buy now....
Second it was not the Chris King hubs that were this issue it was the carbon rims snapping and bring them up as a negative was poor form.
Third for 3,000 frikn' dollars I would expect a PERFECT wheelset in every way, if it comes with sharp fibers all over it its dumpster material.
I got my first set of Nobles last fall and was hesitant to try carbon hoops but i have been very happy. they are extremely durable and for half the cost of Enve what a load of BS.
"ENVE Composites is using Zyvex Technologies' nano-enhanced carbon fiber technology in a new line of wheel rims for downhill mountain bike racing. The rims are said to out-perform and out-last traditional alloy rims."
Are they using this tech in the tested wheelset? Or any current wheelsets? Since the acquisition by Amer Sports? A S also bought Mavic, a brand that appears from their offering to know little about mtbiking.
only tyres I have found that arnt to flexi and can handle the Rocky Peaks etc. and extra weight and speed that the ebike can maintain/carry over rough terrain are Schwalbe super gravity/DH tyres, everything else will just flex and cause huge impacts and bend my rims, unless I run crazy pressures.
I also know 4 riders who've bought ENVE road rims and have had cracks / bubbles warrantied.... but at the cost of other potential failure have sold on and bought another brand....
Kudos to PB for the first ever honest review in the history of the bike review crap.
Also, I have a pair of LB downhill rims on my SB66. Cracked the front pretty bad somehow after two seasons, not a a catostrophic failure but I am done with carbon anything on my bike. I think it worked great as a rim, and I must say LB was great to deal with, but the big issue in my opinion is carbons poor performance near the spoke holes. I believe what happened with my rim is a spoke was over tensions and popped through the laminate allowing further cracking. Aluminum is just so much tougher in this critical area that while a carbon rim might be stiffer and "better" while perfectly set up they are much more prone to failure from slight maladjustment.
Also, my LB rims could not keep a tire on at higher pressures. I usually like to pump my tires up a bit higher for the road ride to the trailhead, and multiple times the rear exploded off the wheel blowing sealant everywhere. Never any higher than 40psi mind you. under 30psi and they seemed fine but still was quite the day wrecker to have your tire explode before even hitting dirt.
I also have carbon Easton DH bars (havocs or something I forget, 35mm clamp) and they are junk. They are light sure, but the amount of creaking and upward flex they have when pulling up on the bars is not cool. backsweep is also strange too. Have a pair of Renthalls sitting and waiting to be put on and will be building up some new aluminum wheels as well (anyone have some good 26" wheels with strong high engagement hubs they are trying to sell?
For real people, stop buying carbon! When your aluminum bike parts finally expire they get turned into beer cans and if you dont want to deal with disposing of them your local scrappers will pick that stuff up from the curb in minutes. That really should be the end all arguement for us! At most you can save 2 lbs from your bike, just take a dump and get a little stronger!
Shame the rim doesn't pass all the durability/reliability requirements.
They are bombproof, lighter & cheaper.
thats it, 50% cheaper and 200% better.
Alu rims for life.
Although we’ve yet to see them hit any of their advertising buddies with anything.
No need to