The RockShox vs. Fox battle is mountain biking's equivalent of pitting Coke vs. Pepsi, or Ford vs. Chevy. They're the two biggest players in the suspension world, and if you're in the market for a new bike there's a very, very good chance that it will come with either a RockShox or Fox fork.
RockShox launched their
new Lyrik earlier this year, and shortly after Fox debuted the
new Fox 36 GRIP2. Both options are air sprung, and aimed at riders looking for a fork that can handle everything from enduro racing to aggressive trail riding. With similar weights, prices, and features, choosing one over the other is a difficult, but not impossible task. I've spent considerable time on both forks, including back-to-back testing in Whistler in order to assess their real-world performance.
Fox 36 Factory GRIP2 Details• FIT GRIP2 damper
• EVOL air spring
• Adjustable high- and low-speed compression and rebound
• Wheel size: 27.5" or 29"
• Max travel: 170mm (29"), 180mm (27.5")
• Reduced offset options (37mm for 27.5", 44mm for 29")
• Weight: 2,020-grams (160mm 29")
• MSRP: $1,065 USD
•
www.ridefox.com RockShox Lyrik RC2 Details• Charger 2 RC2 damper
• DebonAir air spring
• Adjustable rebound, high- and low-speed compression
• Wheel size: 27.5" or 29"
• Travel: 150, 160, 170, 180mm
• Offsets: 37mm, 46mm (27.5"), 42mm, 51mm (29")
• Weight: 2,000 grams (160mm 29")
• Price: $999 USD
•
www.rockshox.com Both forks offer adjustable high- and low-speed compression damping.
Design DetailsThe chassis design of both forks is fairly similar – they both use magnesium lowers and aluminum stanchion tubes, although Fox's Kashima-coated stanchions have a 36mm diameter, while RockShox's Fast Black stanchions measure 35mm.
Internally, both forks use a cartridge style damper, but the difference lies in how they deal with the increased oil pressure that occurs when a fork is compressed. RockShox's Charger II damper uses an extruded rubber bladder that expands as the piston moves into the cartridge to handle the displaced oil.
Fox has used a bladder-style system in the past, but they went a different route with the GRIP2, and chose to use a spring-backed internal floating piston, a simple but effective design that was originally found on their more budget oriented Rhythm forks.
The Lyrik has one rebound dial, while the 36 has two, for high- and low-speed rebound adjustment.
AdjustmentsFox 36 GRIP2If this were purely a battle to see which fork had the most adjustments, Fox would take the win. The 36 GRIP2's exact number of clicks on the high-speed compression knob may vary, but according to Fox there are 16 usable settings when starting from fully closed. There are also 12 clicks of low-speed compression, 8 clicks of high-speed rebound damping adjustment, and 16 clicks of low-speed rebound adjustment.
Fox use plastic volume spacers that clip onto each other to adjust the 36's end stroke ramp-up, although a 32 mm socket is required to remove the top cap. It's a tiny detail, but I prefer the cassette tool style that RockShox use – no matter how careful I am, I inevitably end up with a few scuffs on the Fox style of top cap after a few volume spacer adjustments.
RockShox Lyrik RC2The big news this year was the return of adjustable high-speed compression damping on the Lyrik. It'd been absent for a few seasons, part of RockShox's 'less is more' strategy when it comes to adjustments, but now it's back, and there are five possible settings, with the middle setting said to be identical to the amount of high-speed compression damping found on last year's model. The fork also has 18 clicks of low-speed compression, and 19 clicks of rebound adjustment.
Adjusting the amount of air spring ramp-up is as simple as removing the left top cap with a cassette tool (after letting out the air, of course), and then threading or unthreading plastic spacers to change the air volume.
Set UpBy the end of the test period my final settings on both forks ended up being quite similar – the air pressure numbers were almost the same, and I ran two volume spacers in both forks in order to get the amount of end stroke ramp-up I wanted. Neither fork took very long to get dialed in, but the process was a little quicker with the Lyrik, simply because there were fewer knobs to turn.
Consummate tinkerers will probably gravitate towards the 36 due to the extra adjustability, but I was able to get both forks set to my liking with minimum fuss, and at no point during my rides on the Lyrik did I find myself thinking “If only I had adjustable high-speed rebound, and more clicks of high-speed compression...” It's also harder to make the Lyrik perform poorly - even with both compression dials turned all the way in the fork still remained rideable, although it was certainly much firmer than my normal settings. Doing the same thing on the 36 resulted in a fork that was basically locked out, a setting that would probably only work if your last name was Gwin.
Performance Time for the real test – how do they actually feel out on the trail? To find out, once I'd had plenty of time to dial in both forks on my home trails I headed to the Whistler Bike Park. I tested them back to back, riding a few laps on one fork before switching it out for the other, and then switching back again.
The bike stayed the same – the only variable that was changing was the fork. I rode a mix of trails in order to subject the forks to a variety of scenarios, everything from the tight bermed turns of Angry Pirate to the rough, root strewn chaos of Lower Joyride.
The level of small bump sensitivity both forks deliver is excellent, and they both initiate their travel with ease, with plenty of traction available for those slippery, slower speed moments. The Lyrik does feel a little more supple off the top, but it also has a lower dynamic ride height than the 36 – the negative spring pressure really wants to pull it down into its travel, which means a few precious millimeters have already been used before you encounter a bump of any size.
I ended up running two volume spacers in both forks, with similar air pressures, and found that the amount of travel I used was quite close between the two. The 36 does seem to inherently ramp up a little earlier in its travel, and is a little less likely to use full travel, but there's not a drastic difference between the way the two air springs behave, and the amount of ramp up can easily be altered with spacers.
When it comes to torsional stiffness, neither fork gave me any reason to complain. Granted, I'm not the heaviest rider out there, but I didn't experience any unwanted twisting or flexing - there's plenty of support for those instances when the best option is to plow and pray.
Ok, so the small bump sensitivity and stiffness is similar, they both use the same amount of travel when ridden on the same trail – what's the difference? The difference is in the way they behave when faced with repeated hard impacts. Picture a high-speed stretch of trail that has tall roots zig-zagging across it in every direction, with deep holes in between the roots. It was in this scenario that the 36 took the lead – it did a better job of handling those bigger impacts, with a level of plushness deeper in its travel that wasn't present with the Lyrik. The Lyrik took those big hits in stride, but it wasn't able to erase them in the same way that the 36 was, and it transmitted more feedback to my wrists and forearms. The 36 had a more bottomless feel, as if there was always a little more travel left over in reserve, just in case things got really wild.
Durability: There haven't been any durability issues with either fork – no oil leaking, no crowns creaking, nothing. When it comes to service intervals, RockShox recommends performing a basic lower service every 50 hours, and a full rebuild after 200 hours, while Fox recommends a full rebuild yearly, or after 125 hours of riding. Those are very reasonable numbers, and worth paying attention to in order to keep your fork running as smoothly as possible.
The Wishlist One feature I'd love to see on both forks is an air bleed valve on the lowers, similar to what's found on the Fox 40, or MRP Ribbon. Carefully sliding a zip tie behind the dust wiper every so often will let out any air that's gotten trapped behind the seal, something that can affect the small bump sensitivity of the fork, but it'd be much easier to have a little button to push.
While I'm dreaming, it'd also be great to see an integrated fender option – it seems silly to zip tie a piece of flexible plastic to a $1,000 fork instead of having a nice and clean bolt-on option.
Pinkbike's Take | What's the verdict? Coke or Pepsi? It's a tough one to call, but if I had to choose I'd go with the Fox 36. The extra adjustability is a plus, but it's really the top-notch performance of the GRIP2 damper that gives it the edge over the Lyrik. The difference is slight, though, and both forks are at the top of their class, extremely capable options no matter if you have your sights set on EWS glory or just want something that can handle those after work hot laps. — Mike Kazimer |
The 'Performance Elite' model should be exactly the same, but without Kashima (so black).
Yes, FIT, but still GRIP2...
From the Fox website:
Performance Elite forks retain the same adjustments, dampers, weight, and 7000 series aluminum upper tubes as Factory Series, but have black anodized upper tubes instead of Genuine Kashima Coat. A Performance Elite graphics package is found on these forks to tie in the black-on-black look.
Nor was this to be expected because of marginal returns though.
And as Ziph mentioned there is a slight CSU creak on really hard hits every once in awhile, but not consistent...
More robust joint and proper preparation using press fit locking compounds would be a good thing. But it will weigh more and the extra step will cost more.
Rockshox are similar, but I think they are pretty good at replacement even after warranty as a CSU failure is pretty serious risk of injury or worse and it's a liability for them.
All my Pike's started creaking early on. My most recent went maybe a month before it started creaking at the stanchion joints, while the 3 others I got a year out of at least.
Wicking loctite seems to work some times, but it's still a bandaid fix. It might quill the creak, but it's not address the root cause - it does not really fix the compromised press fit. That little bit of loctite isn't going to prevent a fork that would otherwise fail, from failing.
Incoming from manitou
180mm to 160mm travel
37mm stanchions
29 and 650b
Integrated fender
LSC hsc lsr and HBO
Couple DVO’s.
Think Öhlins has the only answer with full one piece CSU.
I'm on my second Fox 36 now (sold my last bike) and haven't had one creak yet.
Neither Fox or RS are perfect in this regard, and either should be willing to replace/repair under warranty (once a licensed service center has confirmed the creak is coming from the CSU and not a janky headset or something).
Bottom line is, these units should not creak. A creaking CSU is a compromised CSU.
So ,more adjustments means more trouble, but that was actually not the point I was referring to.
There’s a company here in NZ that will re-press your steerer back into your crown.
36.
In the US, the damper removal tool costs $25. Here the same tool costs €50 ($58 at the current exchange rate)...
I checked the site, but unfortunately my Polish is a bit rusty/non-existent... Is there an English or German version of the same site?
For the 29", look for a Magnum. It's the same fork internally, only it fits 29" and plus tires. On sale it can be had for €500 on the usual sites (CRC, Bike-components, bike-discount, bike24, etc.).
But one thing in the test is odd: you are complaining about the neg chamber behaviour of the lyrik being too soft at the beginning. I don‘t know the fox layout, bur the lyrik uses the shaft as additional neg chamber, so the volume is quite big (maybe bigger then the 36 volume).
So the logic behind that is to run more pressure to gain mid stroke support (and progression as a side effect) and maintain good small bump compliance. So for me it sounds like, that you should have tried the lyrik with a couple of psi more and one token less. If needed with a small damping adjustment...
-> softer beginning, better middle support and same progression.
Plus if you still have a 26" lyrik and want to upgrade the damper and spring you can. It may not smooth out repeated rough bumps but at my budget the aftermarket long term parts availability means more than the margins performance.
"Grip 2 has 16 usable settings when starting from fully closed"
is 100% wrong - according to a number of fox technicians that GRIP 2 owners have had to call because FOX farked up their documentation / damper and refuse to acknowledge it - its 16 from open.
Info here
forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/2019-fox-36-grip2-1081197.html
Come on FOX sort you stuff out - recall all the dampers and put the right stops on them. MTB media - the fact your not calling out this as a big issue on a $1300 fork is just a joke.
The Grip 36 is the best fork ive ever owned but FFS I feel like a beta tester on it.
Yep its all pretty confusing - most 36 Grip 2 forks (not all) have 32 clicks on the high speed - they should have 16.
Pinkbike seem to be saying that usable range of clicks is 0 to 16 clicks from closed - or another way of thinking is 16-32 from open.
In fact that range that does nothing. The real range is 0 -16 from open. Beyond that nothing changes.
For reference I ran 4 days on chairlifts in the range that Pinkbike suggested and got a bit beaten up by the fork. That was before the "clarification" on the MTBR thread.
Just returned from another 6 days on shuttles and took off 16 clicks to use the method the fox techs have outlined and its by far the best fork ive ever used. Like a magic carpet on the rough stuff. In addition the pressure guidelines fox suggest are for Gwin! Back them off 7-10 PSI like Pivot suggest in their setup guides and its game on.
Attention! Remove the valve cover, release the air! Pick a socket wrench, unscrew the top cap check for lubricants in air shaft, install token, screw on the top cap, add air! Reset all the settings! balance out the rebound, press on the fork, add desired amount of low speed compression, throw the fork over enemy lines!
I just stick with my Formula EX Selva because full service is a piece of cake. Full service in 15min or less. Negative coil spring make it super sensitive for smaller bumbs. Fast shimstack change with the CTS valve's in 5 min. Less knobs more fun...
It's a bit annoying because you typically always measure adjustment from closed and thats how it works with every other setting.
Now that I've figured it out I can say the fork is incredible and completely concur with @mikekazimer that this fork is incredible when you're taking big hits in the 50%-85% of the travel. The support and feel is outstanding.
For a premium product like this Fox should do a recall. Ideally, it would be great if you could get an RA and your local shop and they could get a new damper and have it installed there.
1) If you really want to know what the LSC and HSC setting on your fork are doing, SLOWLY (so it doesn't get stuck down) let all the air out of your fork and then remove the valve stem. You can then get a pretty good idea of how the LSC and HSC settings work and interact by playing with them while manually compressing your fork. On my fork this re-enforced the advice I got from Fox regarding the 32 clicks of HSC my fork has: count clicks from gently closed (as per the latest manual revision). HSC clicks beyond 16 out from closed do not do much on my fork.
2) Don't believe Fox's rebound settings. I had my daughter do a slo-mo video of me riding some stairs with Fox's recommended rebound settings and the fork was definitely packing down. I opened the LSR nearly wide open (3 clicks short I believe) and the HSR 1-2 clicks more open than Fox's recommendations and it now feels right and looks right in slow motion. (Keep in mind that rebound settings are weight / pressure and number of spacers dependant so everyone's will be different).
3) If your fork is feeling harsh, don't first open up your HSC /LSC compression more (like I did), lower your psi / increase your sag. I had both LSC and HSC opened all the way, installed a Luftkappe, removed the stock spacer and was still getting more arm pump than my old DPA Lyrik. However, I was only running around 18% sag. I dropped this down to 25% sag, reset the compression where Fox recommends and all of a sudden I was using full travel and feeling plush for the very first time. I did end up adding the stock spacer (which is like 2 spacers if you don't have Luftkappe) back in to prevent bottoming out on slower trails and it feels pretty darn good now. I have ordered a 170mm airshaft which I'm going to try running at around 28% sag to see how that compares to my 160mm at 25%. I'm hoping this will get me exactly where I want to be, albeit with a little more standing pedal bob than I had to start with.
On the flip side, for me the Fox is more confidence inspiring when I get myself in over my head on steep terrain or launching off stuff into rocky or rooty landings. There's some secret sauce in the damping / air spring combo that just makes it beg for more.
Quick Question:
My fork (purchased) came with the stock screw in bolt with the Cam Lever. That isnt the QR you are talking about that is flexy I'm guessing, cause it's basically the same thing as a bolt on. I don't want flexy.
To see what LSC and HSC do after you slowly let the air out and remove the valve stem, first close them both all the way. As the review says, the fork is almost completely locked out. Then open the HSC a couple clicks at a time and try compressing the fork to see what it feels like each time. Now try the same test with the LSC open a little more. Repeat as you like. For my fork and my preferences I found that Fox's new manual settings (measured from gently closed) were almost exactly what I wanted the LSC and HSC to feel like, at least for this kind of static test.
1) The optimal pressures and sag settings seem too high for the average rider.
2) They don't really address the extra HSC clicks that many of the forks seem to have, although the newer version of the tuning guide sort of does.
3) The base compression tune is the same for everyone!?! WTF? I'm pretty sure it takes more force to decelerate my 220 lbs than it does the average 160 lbs rider . Since force is proportional to mass times deceleration, and damping force is roughly proportional to fork velocity, larger riders with more mass should need more force (more damping) at the same fork compression velocities or they will blow through more travel.
4) The rebound damping settings, especially for LSR seem way too closed (slow) at least for heavy riders like me.
The extra clicks don't matter cause they don't work.
Compression works in conjunction with the air spring so your not learning as much as you think with your air-less experiment . It's also something that's personal to taste and therefore tough to recommend.
I'm about 210lbs and run the recommended settings. I've experimented with other settings but always come back to the suggested start points despite them being very different to how I used to run my '17 Lyrik.
As far as I'm concerned, Fox nailed it. I'm feeling faster and more confident than I've ever felt on a bike. Also the hand pain I've suffered from for years has mostly dissapeared.
I literally never maintained my 2014 Pike and it suffered a slight drop in performance in maybe 2+ years. A quick oil and seal change and it felt bright as a button again. Admittedly older, but my 2011 Vanilla RC2s felt like a bag of nails after a year, a strip down revealed the very early stages of stancion wear and an almost dry fork. Oil and seal change had it as sweet and slippery as new. Yes I ignored the service interval, but hey sue me.
RS always used to be a big wad cheaper than Fox, and there is still a bigger difference in real term UK shop prices, but the price gap is closing which is making me almost be tempted back to Fox again. However if the Lyrik is as fit and forget as my recent experience has shown me then they may still pip Fox to the post.
Whether they are now better than RS, I couldn't say. They are much better than before though.
(I do still prefer my Manitou Mattoc to my Fox 34 Performance GRIP, but I also prefer it to a Pike).
And @Enduroisnotacrime, you're absolutely incorrect - I wouldn't work for a media outlet that didn't give me the freedom to write what I wanted in a product review.
FWIW, I set my 36 up to recommended settings and it felt horrible. I then saw people were saying that fox told them to use the fist 16 clicks from open and it feels way better. I think some clarification from Fox is necessary here.
Seems like a big oversite on fox's part to release something like that and seems they are getting a free pass because they're fox. I can't think of another suspension company mtb or automotive related that has released something like that as a top teir product.
The Suntour Durolux would also ticks all his wantings.
But idk if it has a bladder.
But its less than half the price of Fox 36 here in Europe... I know what I would take
Still, I have been eagerly awaiting the DVO onyx SC aS my probable next fork.
Thought Not on sale until November
My bias against Fox is that I still have 2 CTD 34 forks and those were perhaps the most confidence sapping suspension product I have ever owned (crazy dive). The fact that fox never owned up to this disaster has always soured me. I remember when I got my first pike it was a revelation compared to those garbage forks (riding high in travel, extremely supple and easy to rebuild).
enduro-mtb.com/en/best-160-mm-mtb-fork-can-buy
".. I know there's at least one aftermarket option, but I'd love to see a bolt on fender come as a stock feature..."
I did not know that! That might explain why my pike seems rougher laterly on small bumps. How much shoud I slide that zip tie in? Is there any dange if I go too deep?
How many people who buy that fox fork will not understand any of the adjustments and be riding a complete lemon of a fork but still preach how good it is.. :-)
The new lyriks are ace..
All my previous fox forks have needed custom damping to feel good. Don't be blinded by the Kashima!! although it does look the dogs
This guy did a tuning guide on the Grip2.
And these are on most bikes.
How about a Suntour /Marzhochi/Manitou/MRP comparison.
BTW the Suntour Duralux has hi/low speed compression adjustment and never issues with creaky CSU. The Durolux is easy to service.
You're already on it aren't you?
It is possible to upgrade as GRIP2 2019 for a lot of money here in Italy (about 500€, while in USA the damper costs 300$)
What's your advice ? do the upgrade or try to sell my fit4 and buy a new grip2 ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9vsOHmmmpo
How do I proceed to get a warrant on this?
Cane Creek, DVO, MRP all ride better, have better support, and actually give a shit because they're (relatively) small companies.
I'm on the new Helm Air, it's a beast and I love it.
www.google.com/search?q=halston+inversion+fork&safe=off&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS775US775&hl=en-US&prmd=sinv&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=36ADp1srPiG4DM%253A%252CBHpbr3gcpieA7M%252C_%253BSVc16xiDlQDwPM%253A%252C_5JeVHxWkgNOkM%252C_%253Bxmqb7hJfuPD2KM%253A%252C_5JeVHxWkgNOkM%252C_%253B0-YknD50zPYE-M%253A%252CZDCMmJAbK6NSEM%252C_%253BY-mLUMGNtC6cGM%253A%252CBHpbr3gcpieA7M%252C_%253Bbkm7llNOG7GcIM%253A%252CZDCMmJAbK6NSEM%252C_%253Bb_22wKzcT9c7NM%253A%252C_5JeVHxWkgNOkM%252C_%253BeKgv6RVD4hChEM%253A%252CBHpbr3gcpieA7M%252C_%253BeoMOoEybjlG36M%253A%252CBHpbr3gcpieA7M%252C_%253BqjZUXrEl5C6qYM%253A%252CqeM03mEqcwCOFM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kSLCIvzVOaC_3ZxF7n6xxJenC0nvA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEttOuxdbdAhXiz4MKHRi3AV8Q4216BAgJECQ&biw=414&bih=660#imgrc=xmqb7hJfuPD2KM:&isa=y
Period.
GRIP2 is a waste of money. Stick with the RCT3 with Andreani piston kit. Even GRIP2 with thw aforementioned piston kit won't be as good. Fox on the blag for the dollar
And yeah, if only it had 36mm stanchions.... that 1mm would be super noticeable to most riders...
There are plenty of guys out there shredding on a Lyrik that are way better than you or I. Complaining about either of these options is silly.
Kazimer-Fox makes a damper for you-should you one day decide to turn on your beloved SRAM- It's called the Fit 4.
See, it only provides a small amount of adjustability for people who ride slow(er), and in areas that are a lot smoother than those for which the Grip 2(and the RC 2 before that) was designed to work in;
But realistically, you should prolly step down to a 34, or even a 32 as well. No reason for you to carry around all that extra weight and complexity when you don't need it, and all it does is cause you confusion