Review: Industry 9 Trail 270 Wheels

Oct 31, 2018
by Daniel Sapp  


Industry Nine produces a variety of wheels with custom anodized hubs and thick aluminum spokes, all built from the ground up in its Asheville, North Carolina, facility. The company is perhaps best known for its blingy spokes and hubs with rapid-fire engagement that have their own distinct buzz that's highly sought by many and loathed by others. While I9 was certainly not the first company to make a hub with high engagement, aluminum spokes, or even straight pull spokes that thread into the hub, they were one of the first to successfully do it on one platform.

For 2018, the company updated its aluminum mid-weight wheel, the Trail245, hoping to create a stronger package without significantly increasing weight. The all-new model, the Trail270, uses the same I9 Torch Hub system as its predecessor, is available with 27.5-inch or 29er rims, and with 24 or 32 spoke holes. The hubs are available in XD and HG, and even with Shimano's Micro Spline design that's needed for the new, not-quite-available XTR gruppo (I9 is one of only a few companies that have been granted the license to produce that driver).


I9 Trail 270 Wheelset Details
• 3-degree engagement via 6 pawls, 120 point drivering
• 27mm rim inner width, 31mm outer
• Colors: customizable
• Front Axle compatibility: QR, 12x100, 15x100, 15x110 boost, 20x110 Boost
• Rear Axle compatibility: QR, 10x135, 12x135, 12x142, 12x148, 12x157 Superboost (32h)
• Freehub compatibility: SRAM XD, Shimano HG, Shimano Micro Spline
• Weight: 1,650g (32h set), 1,560g (24h set), 1,605g (as tested - 32h R, 24h F)
• Warranty: two-years
• MSRP: $1,245 USD (as tested)
industrynine.com




I've ridden various iterations of Industry Nine's wheels on and off for over a decade and am currently testing a set of Trail270 wheels with a 24h front and 32h rear spoke configuration.

I have them set up on a Pivot Trail 429 with 157+ Superboost spacing. It's slightly unorthodox and not "out of the box" having a different spoke number front and back. However, it's a set-up that anyone could purchase and I've found it to work really well for me.


Construction

Industry Nine's wheels are designed to work as a system, and there are several things that set them apart. The hubs and spokes are both made in-house in Asheville, North Carolina. Nearly everything is machined and assembled on-site, and if you happen to be in the area, they're usually more than happy to give a quick tour and show you the entire process - it's pretty cool and a story in and of itself.

You can also customize the wheels in different colors, hub combinations, and even spoke counts. They have a nifty tool called the "ano-lab" on their site that lets you mess around with different ideas.


Driverings and pawls. The internals of the hub are precise, and the tolerances are very tight.


Both the hub shells and spokes are aluminum. The hubs start out as a 12-foot long rod before being cut, lathed, and machined down to the shells. The axle, end caps, freehub body, and spokes, as well as the steel drivering and pawls, all undergo a similar process. The drivering and pawls are made from an A2 tool steel for strength. According to I9, the aluminum parts can be cut and milled down in a matter of minutes. However, the harder steel parts take several hours.

The hub has six pawls that are phased to work in two teams of three to get the 120 points of engagement. In order to get that number, the driverings and pawls are made of a wire EDM cut A2 tool steel. Engineer speak for "really damn strong." It takes longer to manufacture but, without this, the drivering would either have to be much larger to get that much engagement or the tooth profile would have to be reduced which would compromise strength.




The spokes are made out of aluminum and thread directly into the hub. It's also worth noting that I9 also offers hubs for traditional j-bend wheel builds.

When I asked Industry Nine's David Thomas "why" aluminum, he said, "Aluminum is what we're good at. We can make a lightweight spoke that more confidently threads directly into the hub, and also create a lighter and stiffer wheel. You get the ride qualities of aluminum, a high stiffness to weight ratio, minimal elongation, and it's easy to machine. Plus, with the aluminum, there are the options for anodization that don't exist with steel."

The trail rims are designed in-house by I9 and are 27mm wide internally with a 31mm outer width.


Performance

I've probably spent more time on Industry Nine's wheels than most other wheelsets out there, and although you can go with a flashy color combination as I have for the Trail 429, I would say that being able to be fashion savvy (or utterly obnoxious) is the least important part of the I9 package.

There are two aspects to these wheels that I see setting them apart from a lot of other options, and that's the high engagement in the rear hub and the stiffness of the wheel build. The high engagement is certainly noticeable in more technical terrain when I find myself "ratcheting" up and over roots and in juicy sections of trail. It's not as apparent when I'm actually riding I9 wheels as it is when I'm back on another set that has less engagement, but it's also noticeable when I'm tired and pedaling squares.


Review X-Fusion Trace 36 HLR Fork
Hopping through roots and rocks and choosing poor lines, but the Trail 270's held strong for me.


One can build a set of I9's up to be really damn stiff. Some people argue that it's too stiff for them but that's ok, not everything is for everyone. I personally find that out of all of the wheels and rim iterations that I9 makes, their Trail wheels work best for me and give a great ride quality that's stiff but not too much so. I can say that I've primarily ridden the 24-hole iteration and in switching to the 32-hole on the back of my Trail 429, I did notice a substantial increase in rigidity, but I also really like the way that the bike handles with that change. The wheels feel confident and planted, power goes to the ground, and I don't feel much flex.

The Trail 270 wheels come across as light and lively, comparable to any other high-end wheelset. Coming from the old I9 Trail 245 wheels, the wider rim profile is nice and helps fatter tires find more traction. I wouldn't run much larger than a 2.5" tire on these, and I9 recommends a 2.2-2.5" tread which encompasses most any "aggressive trail" tire I would currently choose to ride.


The clogless valves are great when the trails are mucky and you need to drop air pressure in the name of traction.



As far as the durability of the rim goes, I've had zero issues with the new Trail 270 after nearly a year of riding on them. I have gone through several other brand's wheelsets in that time, but these haven't as much as dented. I've been riding them in a variety of places ranging from high speed, rocky, and leaf covered singletrack on the east coast, to fast and flowy trails out west.



Issues

As I stated above, I haven't had any issues with the Trail 270 wheels. I9 used to include a valve stem in their builds that had a tendency to clog with sealant, but that has been replaced with a "clog-free" version and so far, so good.

The Trail 270 wheels do have a maximum recommended weight limit of 210 lbs for the 24h and 230 for the 32h. At 150lb, I'm well within that range, but some riders may be more suited to their enduro or DH options.

The one question that I've heard countless times is "What if I break a spoke?" I9 includes a couple of extra spokes with each wheelset, and they're available at many (but certainly not the majority) of bike shops. However, they're not as common as a J-bend spoke, and you can't just cut and thread something to the correct length on your own. That being said, I9's product, in my experience, tends to hold up better than a lot of other wheels.


Pinkbike's Take
bigquotesIndustry Nine have made my go-to wheelset for all-around trail riding with their Trail 270. No, they're not cheap, but being able to easily switch freehub bodies and end caps to make the wheels work on multiple bikes is a plus, and I've seen many wheelsets outlast bikes here in Western NC where the brand has a strong following. Hell, people buy the wheels used, a fact that in and of itself says a lot. The Trail 270 is a strong, lightweight, and precision made wheelset that can be made to stand out from the crowd, but what makes these wheels really great is what goes on inside the hubs.Daniel Sapp







132 Comments

  • + 74
 Measure of sound low to high:

1) airplane
2) earthquake
3) industry Nine hub.
  • + 80
 A loud freehub is only a reminder that you're not pedalling
  • + 22
 Maybe they'll help keep the bears away.
  • + 6
 Profile Hubs are louder
  • + 5
 @IllestT: Which can be a good thing...
  • + 15
 Nothing is better than a silent bike...unless you live where there is tigers. Then I9 all day.
  • + 38
 @motard5: I'm into cougars.
  • + 5
 @zephxiii: better than them being into you....
  • + 1
 How does the sound compare to E thirteens? My E-thirteens are loud but I’ve gotten use to it.
  • + 10
 @zephxiii: or french Alps hunters ....
  • + 6
 #loudhubssavelives
  • + 3
 @eswebster: Pegging for 600 Alex....
  • + 1
 @wtmorgan1: I love the sound of my loud E-thirteens Smile
  • + 1
 @bighit117: This is the truth.
  • + 1
 @wtmorgan1: I've had is and my friends have had e13s. The is were louder but not by too much
  • + 2
 Loud hubs clear out the trail snails without me ever saying a word when I come up behind them.
  • + 1
 The decibel scale is logarithmic, so they're probably all within a few dB of each other.
  • + 30
 Or you can spend 800$ on a set of torch classic with J bend spokes and 400$ on beer.
  • + 3
 or get two sets of DTswiss EX1501 in sale
  • + 1
 @zede: Yup just went DT xm 421, I9 hubs built for $700. Almost exact same setup width wise.
  • + 1
 How strong are XM rims ? I mean people use the EX (marketed as enduro) for DH and they seem to be strong enough. But I have not read a lot about the XM
  • + 1
 @zede: They are typically compared to Stans Arch MK3s but I feel they are much stiffer. I actually rode the bootleg trails in boulder city this weekend which is known for its razor rocks and they did extremely well. 25ID and 30 OD. So not wide but perfect for everyday am/enduro type riding.
  • + 3
 or $400 in a set of Hopes and $800 in beer...

...or a trip to Squamish
  • + 18
 Loud hubs are the best for not having to shout at hikers ahead on the trail. Just stop pedaling and they turn and look for you. I wish my new king hubs were as loud as my old king hubs. I'm thinking I'll have to try some I9s next.
  • + 2
 just keep riding the kings, they will get louder once it breaks in
  • + 1
 @senorbanana: I can second this, my last set took 6 months before the angry bumblebee came to visit.
  • + 1
 @senorbanana: The "new" ones are old enough already. I mean they're not as loud as my kings from 15+ years ago.
  • + 5
 @Explodo: Or your hearing deteriorates....Wink
  • + 22
 Face of that guy during jump

АHAHHAHAHAH
  • + 1
 I think i made a better face during my way too small of a drop I posted to instagram. Drop = Small, Face = SERIOUS!
  • + 16
 You let the North Carolina guy review the I9 wheels? I smell media bias! What's next? The Portland guy reviewing a Chris King headset? A Utah guy reviewing Enve wheels?
  • + 21
 Is it fake news too? It's a pinkbike review, everything is the next greatest technological achievement. The only reason to read a pinkbike review is for 1.the comment section and 2.the confirmation bias on the Gucci part you just mounted on your bike.
  • + 8
 Doesn't matter who reviews theese. I9 makes the best wheels period
  • + 8
 If it makes you feel any better, I'm a Colorado guy, and I can vouch for every good thing said about these wheels.
  • + 15
 We're cutting down on shipping waste. I can just stop by and pick them up so it only made sense.
  • + 2
 @gotohe11carolina: Never heard a truer word spoken.
  • + 2
 Well, they haven't let anyone from china review a carbon bike. So I guess they're cool.
  • + 13
 I am on my second V10 and second pair of i9's and don't ever see me going back.......they are the most loved component on my bike......when I clean it I could sit there with a beer and shine the i9's for hours.......I may have a problem..........
  • + 7
 I bought a set with my new bike. Pulled them out of the box and was floored by the quality of the build. Just one of those products where you could plainly see it was superior. My old wheels were good, but these are great. I think I like them better than the rest of the new bike I put them on.
  • + 10
 They ride great, but my favorite part of i9 hubs is when you take your wheel off and the freehub body slides off under its own weight, falling to the ground with your cassette, popping all springs and pawls off on impact, and how you get to hunt for those microscopic springs all around your garage, or even better, in the dirt and twigs and rocks of a trailside repair.
  • + 7
 So you're saying you bought a used pair and are too stupid or lazy to replace the O-ring that holds that assembly together?
  • + 3
 @Satanslittlehelper: ahhhh, the classic fanboy response.
  • + 4
 I had multiple sets for years at a time and worked on plenty of bikes with them and have never had this happen. This happens to dt Huns a LOT though
  • + 4
 yea, i'm a fanboi but i've never had this or seen this happen and i'm in the land of i9. i've even been trying to get a tire to seat and whacked it on the ground, no problem.
  • + 2
 @DBone95: having owned i9s this has never happened to me or any of my friends who have owned them. Sounds like something is wrong with your wheels
  • + 7
 What if I break a spoke? Don't worry about that. I've been riding the same i9 wheels for 4 1/2 years and haven't broken a spoke. Multiple people I ride with have trendy, mega wide boutiquey carbon, read: garbage can wheels, and have broken spokes, exploded wheels and had a generally shitty experience with them while I roll along happily on my 26mm *gasp* internal width i9 bombproof wheels. Thanks Pinkibike for keeping it real with a legit wheel review. #carbonwheelsarestupid no joke.
  • + 1
 I think you will tear a hole in the rim eyelet before you break a spoke.
  • - 3
 I've seen many people break I9 spokes. I've broken 3 of them in one shot on XC trails. I still have a thing for I9 components, but longevity is not one of the reasons. Two things go wrong with them: bearings, and spokes (if you are using I9 aluminum spokes).
  • + 6
 Being easy to switch freehub bodies and endcaps is certainly a nice feature, but I doubt many people, besides the media guys, would make use of that feature regularly.
  • + 25
 It may not happen often but swapping endcaps is definitely preferable to replacing the hub or using adapters when you get a new frame or fork
  • + 5
 I agree - they will introduce a new axle standard long before I consider a new bike... The days of just transferring old components to a new frame are fast disappearing.
  • + 6
 @TheJD owning Hope and I9 makes you feel secured for industry dumbness.. 142, 148 superboost.. screw them all..
  • + 0
 @thook: Not if that new frame or fork has super boost.
  • + 1
 @slimboyjim: Its not that bad yet.. I'm going from an old fuel to a sb 130 now.. Did need a linderets boostinator kit tho..
  • + 2
 @bohns1: Depends on how often you upgrade your frame/forks. We've gone from where you could spend more on the wheelset/hubs in the knowledge that they could be used on your next 2 or 3 bikes. That's no longer the case. I won't be looking to replace my non-boost bike any time soon as it is more than good enough for me, and even though it's only a few years old we're at a point where boost is the main standard, and I can see 'Super Boost' taking over from that. Who is to say that won't be replaced with something incrementally better and slightly different a short time later? Imagine that gearboxes catch on with some technological advance (or trend) in a few years and, as they only need space for a single cog, frame makers reduce hub width again for better clearance? All of a sudden no third market adaptor in the world can save you... I'm less confident that I won't be in that scenario now than I was 5 years ago, which drives me towards good quality value options like Hope or DT Swiss.
The one positive I do take is that surely there is only so wide you can make the rear hub before heel clearance becomes an issue, so I'm hoping that things slow down and return a bit of confidence to buyers again...
  • + 3
 @slimboyjim: I loved building up new frames with parts I preferred(or swap over), but I gave up a few years ago...too much stuff to keep track of...took the fun out of it!
  • + 1
 Makes it easy to clean and lube the freehub pawls etc which is way more relevant to most people.
  • + 3
 It'd actually be cool if hub manufacturers made hubs specifically designed to adapt to wider hub standards. You'd be much more inclined to drop big money on a 148 hub if you knew it could easily be adapted to 157. Whether that's beefier rotor mounts designed to work with a spacer, or bearings and axles that can handle a wider cap, there are certainly some of us who look at long-term versatility as a major criteria when shopping.
  • + 1
 @slimboyjim: well, this is my third bike since a 2013 stumpy.. Still on hope pro 2 evo.. Only needed a headset, BB and a boost kit in three frames... Not too bad really.. Its the price you pay to play.
  • + 1
 @bohns1: So yeah... The frame tested on is super boost but he has a 27 ID wheel?
  • + 1
 @slimboyjim: Along with your supposed narrow hub width would come 1.9 tires...
  • + 2
 @PHeller: yes, or bike mfg that make a bike that can be adaptable like my banshees and older intenses. Just swap out the rear dropouts for what you wanna run or what you have to build the bike up
  • + 4
 I've had i9 wheels for a while. Ive found them to be reliable and easy to maintain, but having moved to project321 there is no going back. Engagement is phenomenal and they are QUIET. I don't miss the i9 buz one bit.
  • + 5
 Same happened to me except I went with Onyx and love how peaceful it is with a quiet bike.Litterally silent.
  • + 13
 A little proX grease and you can quiet your I9’s as much as you’d like.
  • + 2
 @nug12182: I definitely miss my onyx hubs. Sold them off when I went to a boost bike. I got those beauties pretty much when they first came out. That said, RF vaults hubs are definitely not too crazy loud for 3°. Quieter than my stans 5° and i9 hubs, for sure.
  • + 9
 I LIKE MY WHEELS LOUD!!!
  • + 1
 @neologisticzand: I looked VERY hard at Onyx and the new Vaults for my DH build I just finished. Onyx just seem great...a technology that's been around for a while but not in the bike industry. RF always tend to be bombproof, but the user serviceability looks great on those. Easy to rebuild if need be. That and they both have very quick engagement. Didn't go either though.
  • + 3
 I bought a set of 305s for my trail bike, the most expensive wheelset i have ever bought, for anything. I was skeptical and worried about how long they would last given my storied history of rim jobs. I am one happy camper and have ZERO desire about ever running another brand. Ive put them through hell, dented the crap out of the rim, but they still hold air and are true. hands down the best wheels that ive ever had.
  • + 3
 Are you talking about wheels?
  • + 2
 I have never heard about industry nine hubs having problems.
I've seen a rear wheel with four broken spokes( crash off a skinny ) the wheel held up for the care full ride down.
As light as a carbon rimed wheel set.
Not as expensive.
They have a great video too!
  • + 1
 I have an older set of their straight pull DH wheels. Love ‘em. Light, burly as all hell and still going strong.

Only fault I can find is if you break a spoke off at the hub. Bit of a pain when compared to j-bends, but it’s more than doable, and I was able to ride out with two broken spikes,no problem.
  • + 1
 yup I9s are strong. My riding buddy ran over his front wheel (old enduro aluminum version) with my pickup (yes, dont ask how). Messed up the rotor completely, and gouged out an endcap. But no spokes broke, rim was ok, it stayed mostly true, and is running straight to this day!
  • + 1
 Really would like to get on a set of I9 hubs someday. I'll agree with the reviewer though on going back to a different hub with slower engagement though.

My last DH build had a set of Profile hubs while my new build is using Hope Pro 4's. Both are great hubs as far as a durability standpoint. Both are loud (Hope's I feel are louder, but Profiles are more like bees). But going from 3° engagement to 8.2° engagement is noticeable. I think in a pure DH sense it won't matter as much, but navigating some of the tech before you drop into a feature I like being able to ratchet the cranks to get up/over obstacles. That's for sure where it's more noticeable.
  • + 2
 My old Enduro wheelset is only 26ID and has been going so strong for 4 years. Can't believe the Trail series is now 27ID and Enduro 30+... solid solid solid. Maybe the best out there.,
  • + 2
 My 1st and only experience with I9 was with their Enduro S XD wheels, and I'll just sum it up by saying I won't be a repeat customer...... I know my experience seems to be in the minority, but it was what it was.
  • + 3
 Why are these way more expensive than a Hope wheelset or Hope Pro4 with DT Swiss Rims?

Same Material and 3x the cost- are you serious?
  • + 10
 Not the same material, the spokes are machined aluminium.
  • + 3
 @stumpymidget: and that's 3x better? I think if it were, more high end wheels, and WC racers would be on them, not just weekend warriors with disposable income who like bling.
  • + 0
 The Hub and internal parts as well as the spokes are all made at I9 in #Merica'
  • + 5
 @ReformedRoadie: Yes, it is. I've run several alloy wheelsets and none of them have the stiffness or weight of the Industry Nine wheels I've owned.
  • + 6
 @ReformedRoadie: Yes, it is a lot better. There are no J-bend wheels that perform like I-9 system wheels. The 1 piece spoke design makes a much stronger chassis. The lateral stiffness created by this makes for super crisp and precise steering input and tracks amazingly though rough terrain. Racers get sponsored by big high budget companies, not little guys like I-9.
  • + 5
 Not same material: everyone else uses 6061 aluminum, whereas I9 uses 7075 aerospace grade aluminum. Much lighter, much more difficult to work with, and much MUCH stronger.

Results speak for themselves.
  • + 3
 @MrDiamondDave: Hope are manufactured in UK which has a way stricter labour law and enviromental law... I think I know what I would buy.
  • + 4
 They are expensive and I normally hate on expensive fashionable stuff, but I've got various buddies who ride I9 wheels and beat on them hard, and have had no issues....not even a dented rim. Carbon rims on the other hand.....
  • + 1
 I've run Hope Pro4 on my last bike and I9 on my new bike. The Hope wheels are fine, but don't come close to the quality of the I9. They just don't.
  • + 2
 @wallheater: does that include we are one? Currently debating wether I get I9 or WeAreOne but I've never had carbon wheels before. Lifetime warranty sounds legit tho
  • + 0
 @NotNamed: go ahead and purchase your 40 point hubs
  • + 1
 Totally agree. Nice wheels for sure but the price is ridiculous. I’d much rather ride a carbon set of hoops with a lifetime warranty for close to this price. The ride quality of carbon just can’t be beat.
  • + 0
 @shinook: That's interesting. I9 aluminum 305 wheelsests are the least stiff out of my last 3 aluminum builds. DT Swiss to j-bend I9 hubs have been not only way stiffer, but more more durable.
  • + 2
 @LOLWTF: you could do i9 hubs with we are one rims, best of both worlds
  • + 1
 @chize: nah if I go WeAreOne I'll give the project 321 a try.
  • + 1
 @NotNamed: You live in Europe........ I live in USA so
  • + 1
 They’re pretty and commendable as an engineering exercise. But I have my Roval (Spesh) alu wheels and stock hubs on my 2013 Stumpy Evo 29er and have not once thought “these wheels are really holding me back”

Suspension and brakes on the other hand, that’s where I spend my $
  • + 1
 Sorry but system wheels in MTB are the equivalent of silver plated speaker cables in hifi and civet poo coffee beans in caffeine circles... It works. It sounds good. Taste is okay. But something similar does the same job for so much less.
  • + 12
 That comment shows that you've never really tasted I9 wheels. When you go I9, you don't go back.
  • + 12
 @cool3: for real. I blew out my stock rear and shelled out for some i9s. Havent had to touch them with a spoke wrench since they went on. They are the truth. Plus its nice having them right up the road if something goes wrong.
  • + 1
 @cool3: I did.
  • + 1
 @cool3:
I have plain old 32h wheels made on either Hope or White Industries hubs...why would I need i9 system wheels again?
  • + 2
 Love i9’s Big Grin used to have an older set and they were bombproof! Currently on carbon rims with onyx hubs but wouldn’t mind going back to i9’s on my next build
  • + 1
 @danielsapp

Was the weight reported as measured? Or is that the claimed weight of the wheelset in your configuration?

Also, hows the profile with those Maxxis WT tires?

Look like a great set of wheels!
  • + 2
 That's measured - it lines up with the claimed weight. The 2.5 WT's set up well on it, I wouldn't run a lot larger than a 2.5 though, personally. I've run as narrow as a 2.25 on those wheels, certainly rounds it up a bit more but not too much at all.
  • + 1
 tbh I haven't even seen i9 in the wild, not really a thing over here, but I'm curious about the infamous sound.
ps: please Hope, make a silent hub.
  • + 0
 We need more firms to hop on the proper silent hub sector. It a heavy expensive sprag or a cup and cone bearing shimano atm. Not good enough. Come on i9 hope pull yer finger out
  • + 0
 Project321
  • + 2
 They use EDM to cut steel? What will they think of next
  • + 2
 nothing new in the tech there EDM has been used for decades for precision cutting harder materials, maybe its just new to the cycle industry to get better quality components.
  • + 21
 Yeah, they just blast some Skrillex in the shop. When the drop hits, the A2 steel explodes into a bunch of little high precision pawls... It's science.
  • + 3
 @mrleach: Heard they let Bassnectar take care of the new stem machining
  • + 2
 @mrleach: Thank you! That's the laughter I needed this morning, someone needs to make this video, maybe Matt and Jason/IFHT will show us how it's done.
  • + 1
 The hub sound got a lot quieter after I put a cush core on the rim.
  • + 1
 2year warranty, hahahahaha
  • - 1
 I don't own a bike anymore but I sure as hell miss that bzzzzzzzz.
  • + 12
 @thook dude! get a bike!
  • + 1
 @pdxkid: Don't worry I will but doctor says I still can't ride for a few months. Damn scaphoid never heals
  • + 2
 @thook: mine took two surgeries + forever.
  • + 1
 @pmhobson: mine's been since February. Each time I go back they same come back in a few weeks. They never offered surgery for me sadly. It has been a great excercise in patience
  • - 1
 For me and my experiences i9 IS just for looks.
  • + 3
 You are very wrong. My fatass will case everything on another set of wheels and destroy them. Having countless sideways landings dh races of them I can tell you looks are just a perk to how strong and reliable they are
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