Review: RAAW Madonna V2 - Ready for the Apocalypse
There are companies out there whose catalogs are hundreds of pages long, full of every possible type of bike imaginable. Not Raaw. Their lineup consists of one single model, the Madonna, which first launched in 2017. Version 2.0 came out earlier this year, and while there were a few geometry and frame design tweaks, the overall goal remains the same: to create a tough, functional, and above all, fast bike that can still be comfortably pedaled to the top of wild descents.
The Madonna has an aluminum frame, 29” wheels, 160mm of travel, and was designed around a 170mm fork, although a 180mm fork is a completely feasible option for riders who plan on getting extra sendy.
The Madonna has an aluminum frame, 29” wheels, 160mm of travel, and was designed around a 170mm fork, although a 180mm fork is a completely feasible option for riders who plan on getting extra sendy.
RAAW Madonna V2 Details
• Wheel size: 29"
• 6066 aluminum frame
• Travel: 160mm rear / 170mm front
• 64.5-degree head angle
• 445mm chainstays (size L)
• 12 x 148mm rear axle spacing
• Price: $4,854.15 USD + shipping
• Weight: 33.4 lb / 15.1kg (size large, as shown)
• www.raawmtb.com
• Wheel size: 29"
• 6066 aluminum frame
• Travel: 160mm rear / 170mm front
• 64.5-degree head angle
• 445mm chainstays (size L)
• 12 x 148mm rear axle spacing
• Price: $4,854.15 USD + shipping
• Weight: 33.4 lb / 15.1kg (size large, as shown)
• www.raawmtb.com
The frame only is priced at $2,385, and is available in either raw with a matte clear coat, or black with shiny decals. The Fox Factory model reviewed here goes for $4,780, with parts highlights that include a Fox 36 Factory fork and DPX2 shock, Shimano XT 12-speed drivetrain and 4-piston brakes, and Newman A.30 aluminum wheels.
 | Hands down, this is one of the best cornering bikes I've ridden in recent memory. |
Construction and Features
“Bombproof” is one of those words that gets thrown around all too often in the mountain bike world, but it's an appropriate adjective for the Madonna V2. Just look at the main pivot bearings, or the tall, gusseted headtube. Making the lightest bike possible wasn't really on Raaw's list of priorities, although this new version is 150 grams lighter than the original. Durability took precedence over saving weight, which is why every single pivot has a sealed cap that helps prevent mud and water from getting inside.
There's room for a full size water bottle inside the front triangle, and the two bolts under the top tube can be used to affix a tube or tool holder. Going along with the utilitarian theme, all of the housing is externally routed in order to make brake or derailleur swaps as easy as possible. Other details include a threaded bottom bracket, rubber downtube protector, and 203mm rotors front and rear. It is possible to run a 180mm rotor, but a bike like this deserves all the stopping power possible.
“Bombproof” is one of those words that gets thrown around all too often in the mountain bike world, but it's an appropriate adjective for the Madonna V2. Just look at the main pivot bearings, or the tall, gusseted headtube. Making the lightest bike possible wasn't really on Raaw's list of priorities, although this new version is 150 grams lighter than the original. Durability took precedence over saving weight, which is why every single pivot has a sealed cap that helps prevent mud and water from getting inside.
There's room for a full size water bottle inside the front triangle, and the two bolts under the top tube can be used to affix a tube or tool holder. Going along with the utilitarian theme, all of the housing is externally routed in order to make brake or derailleur swaps as easy as possible. Other details include a threaded bottom bracket, rubber downtube protector, and 203mm rotors front and rear. It is possible to run a 180mm rotor, but a bike like this deserves all the stopping power possible.
Geometry & Sizing
Version 2.0 of the Madonna gets a little slacker and a little longer, putting it right in the mix with the latest crop of modern enduro bikes. The head angle sits at 64.5-degrees with a 170mm fork, the reach is 480mm on a size large, and the seat tube angle is a steep 78.2-degrees.
The chainstay length varies depending on the frame size; it measures 440mm on small and medium, 445mm on a large, and 450mm on an XL. Want something shorter or longer? Raaw offers different dropout chips that can be used to increase or decrease the length by 5 millimeters.
Version 2.0 of the Madonna gets a little slacker and a little longer, putting it right in the mix with the latest crop of modern enduro bikes. The head angle sits at 64.5-degrees with a 170mm fork, the reach is 480mm on a size large, and the seat tube angle is a steep 78.2-degrees.
The chainstay length varies depending on the frame size; it measures 440mm on small and medium, 445mm on a large, and 450mm on an XL. Want something shorter or longer? Raaw offers different dropout chips that can be used to increase or decrease the length by 5 millimeters.
Suspension Design
The Madonna's shock is mounted to the frame in front of and slightly above the main pivot, where it's driven by a beefy aluminum rocker link. There are two different links available – one that's designed for use with a 60mm stroke shock, and the other for a 65mm stroke shock. Both links deliver a 20% leverage rate progression, but the Rocker 60 is intended for riders under 90kg, and the Rocker 65 is for riders above that weight.
What's the difference? Well, the Rocker 60 has a higher leverage ratio, which means that it takes less effort to get the suspension moving, creating a supple initial stroke, while the Rocker 65 has a lower leverage ratio, allowing bigger riders to run less air pressure and have better support.
There's a little bonus feature of the Madonna too – it's possible to run a 65mm stroke shock with the Rocker 60, which results in 171mm of travel. I stuck with the stock 60mm / 160mm travel configuration, but it is nice knowing that the potential exists to turn the bike into even more of a gravity fiend.
Anti-squat sits around 100% at sag in the 32/50 gear combo, and then decreases as the bike goes further into its travel.
| Specifications | ||
| Price | $4780 | |
| Travel | 160mm | |
| Rear Shock | Fox DPX2 Factory | |
| Fork | Fox 36 Factory 170 mm Grip2 | |
| Headset | Acros | |
| Cassette | Shimano XT M8100 10-51 | |
| Crankarms | Shimano XT 170mm | |
| Rear Derailleur | Shimano XT M8100 12-speed | |
| Chain | Shimano XT M8100 | |
| Shifter Pods | Shimano XT M8100 | |
| Handlebar | Acros Alu 780 25mm rise | |
| Stem | Acros 40mm | |
| Grips | Ergon GD1 Factory Slim Black | |
| Brakes | Shimano XT M8120 | |
| Wheelset | Newmen Evolution A.30 6 Bolt | |
| Tires | Maxxis Minion DHF WT 2.5 EXO+ TR 3C MaxxTerra / Maxxis Minion DHR2 WT 2.4 EXO TR Dual | |
| Seat | Ergon SM Enduro M | |
| Seatpost | Fox Transfer post | |
Test Bike Setup
I ran 230psi in the Fox DPX2 shock, which put me at 17mm / 28% sag. Up front, I inflated the Fox 36 to 71 psi and added a few clicks of low- and high-speed compression to suit my preferences. The Madonna is available with either a 50mm or a 40mm stem; after trying both I settled on the 40mm.
I also installed a Float X2 for a portion of the test period, and ended up preferring the feel of the DPX2. It gave the bike a more lively, awake feel; the Float X2 muted some of that liveliness, and made the bike feel a little sluggish on more rolling terrain.
Testing took place on both sides of the border US / Canada border, and included laps on the North Shore as well as plenty of wet, wintery rides near my home in Washington.
Mike Kazimer
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 37
Height: 5'11" / 180cm
Inseam: 33" / 84cm
Weight: 160 lbs / 72.6 kg
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @mikekazimer
Location: Bellingham, WA, USA
Age: 37
Height: 5'11" / 180cm
Inseam: 33" / 84cm
Weight: 160 lbs / 72.6 kg
Industry affiliations / sponsors: None
Instagram: @mikekazimer
Climbing
Ok, the Madonna's not exactly light, and that's with regular 'trail' tires. Toss on a set of heavier duty rubber and the number on the scale is going to creep up even further. But you know what? It pedals very well, thanks to the steep seat tube angle and an appropriate amount of anti-squat. The top tube length of 617mm is compact without feeling cramped, and it worked well for my 5'11” height.
There's minimal pedal bob even with the DPX2 in the fully open position, and it's only exaggerated weight shifts towards the front of the bike that'll get the shock to dip into its travel a little bit. I did end up riding with the shock in middle compression setting fairly often, but that was more to increase the amount of support in rolling terrain at slower speeds.
I've seen some online mutterings about steep seat tube angles being a poor choice for flat terrain. I didn't find that to be the case on the mild three-mile approach to my local trails, although the Madonna does have a fairly tall front end and a higher rise bar, which put me in a comfortable, upright position. Also, if you are concerned about a bike's performance in the flats, it might be best to look for something other than a slack, 160mm enduro bike.
Ok, the Madonna's not exactly light, and that's with regular 'trail' tires. Toss on a set of heavier duty rubber and the number on the scale is going to creep up even further. But you know what? It pedals very well, thanks to the steep seat tube angle and an appropriate amount of anti-squat. The top tube length of 617mm is compact without feeling cramped, and it worked well for my 5'11” height.
There's minimal pedal bob even with the DPX2 in the fully open position, and it's only exaggerated weight shifts towards the front of the bike that'll get the shock to dip into its travel a little bit. I did end up riding with the shock in middle compression setting fairly often, but that was more to increase the amount of support in rolling terrain at slower speeds.
I've seen some online mutterings about steep seat tube angles being a poor choice for flat terrain. I didn't find that to be the case on the mild three-mile approach to my local trails, although the Madonna does have a fairly tall front end and a higher rise bar, which put me in a comfortable, upright position. Also, if you are concerned about a bike's performance in the flats, it might be best to look for something other than a slack, 160mm enduro bike.
Descending
Hands down, this is one of the best cornering bikes I've ridden in recent memory. The low bottom bracket deserves the bulk of the credit here, and while that might cause a few extra pedal strikes on the climbs, on the descents that low slung stance makes the Raaw an absolute riot when it comes to cornering or carving down the steeps.
It carries speed extremely well – the beginning stroke of the shock is very sensitive, which allows it to quickly get out of the way after an impact. I ended up going up one volume spacer size in the DPX2, from a .2” spacer to a .4” spacer in order to get more bottom out resistance. With that spacer installed and the shock set at 28% sag there was plenty of grip, which came in handy during the slippery, slimy conditions that prevailed during testing, as well as enough support to handle bigger hits without using all the travel.
This Madonna V2 has a tough, sturdy nature to it, a solidness that works well with a more aggressive riding style – if you get lazy it can feel like the bike is taking you along for the ride. Stay alert, take charge, and the Raaw will deliver the goods. I could see going with 165mm cranks and a 180mm fork, changes that would increase the ground clearance and make it even more of a downhill machine.
Hands down, this is one of the best cornering bikes I've ridden in recent memory. The low bottom bracket deserves the bulk of the credit here, and while that might cause a few extra pedal strikes on the climbs, on the descents that low slung stance makes the Raaw an absolute riot when it comes to cornering or carving down the steeps.
It carries speed extremely well – the beginning stroke of the shock is very sensitive, which allows it to quickly get out of the way after an impact. I ended up going up one volume spacer size in the DPX2, from a .2” spacer to a .4” spacer in order to get more bottom out resistance. With that spacer installed and the shock set at 28% sag there was plenty of grip, which came in handy during the slippery, slimy conditions that prevailed during testing, as well as enough support to handle bigger hits without using all the travel.
This Madonna V2 has a tough, sturdy nature to it, a solidness that works well with a more aggressive riding style – if you get lazy it can feel like the bike is taking you along for the ride. Stay alert, take charge, and the Raaw will deliver the goods. I could see going with 165mm cranks and a 180mm fork, changes that would increase the ground clearance and make it even more of a downhill machine.
Raaw Madonna
Banshee Titan
How does it compare?
Two aluminum brutes – the Raaw Madonna vs the Banshee Titan. Both bikes have a 64.5-degree head angle with a 170mm fork, and the wheelbase dimensions are only separated by 4mm. The balance of the bikes is a little different, though; the Raaw has a 480mm reach with 445mm chainstays, while the Banshee has a 470mm reach with 452 chainstays. In other words, the Raaw is a little longer up front, and the Titan's a little longer out back.
On the trail, both bikes sit towards the front of the pack when it comes towards taking on big impacts and rough terrain – if you’re the type of rider that likes to let off the brakes and charge right into the chunkiest trails imaginable, these two deliver. The Madonna's lower bottom bracket height is very noticeable, and for me that was the defining characteristic that set them apart. The Titan feels taller both while cornering and in the steeps, while the Raaw sits much lower to the ground. If I had to pick one word to sum up each bike, it'd be 'freeride' for the Titan and 'fast' for the Madonna. At the end of the day, neither bike will hold you back – it all comes down to where your handling preferences lie.
Technical Report
Dropper post length: I'd highly recommend fitting the Madonna with the longest travel dropper post possible. That's due to the steep seat angle - the seat doesn't get as far out of the way when it's lowered as it would on a bike with a slacker seat angle. My test bike came with a 150mm Fox Transfer post (a 175mm post is offered as well), and it wasn't enough drop for my liking, especially on steeper trails.
Tire combo: It's hard to beat the tried and true Maxxis DHF / DHR II tire combo. In this case, I would have liked to see a thicker casing, non-dual compound tire in the rear. Yes, that harder rubber lasts longer tire, but the tire itself isn't going to last that long if there's a hole in the casing. A MaxxTerra EXO+ tire would do the trick, and a DoubleDown version would be even better.
XT M8120 brakes: By now the wandering bite point of the M8120 brakes is old news, but it's worth a brief mention. Theses brakes have almost everything going for them – there's tons of power and the lever shape is excellent, it's just that even with a perfect bleed the bite point can change from one pull of the lever to the next.
XT M8100 drivetrain: With quick, precise shifting, impressive lever ergonomics, and an adjustable clutch the XT M8100 drivetrain is one of the best options currently on the market. In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between XT and XTR in a blind test – it's really only the weight and price that separates one from the other.
Dropper post length: I'd highly recommend fitting the Madonna with the longest travel dropper post possible. That's due to the steep seat angle - the seat doesn't get as far out of the way when it's lowered as it would on a bike with a slacker seat angle. My test bike came with a 150mm Fox Transfer post (a 175mm post is offered as well), and it wasn't enough drop for my liking, especially on steeper trails.
Tire combo: It's hard to beat the tried and true Maxxis DHF / DHR II tire combo. In this case, I would have liked to see a thicker casing, non-dual compound tire in the rear. Yes, that harder rubber lasts longer tire, but the tire itself isn't going to last that long if there's a hole in the casing. A MaxxTerra EXO+ tire would do the trick, and a DoubleDown version would be even better.
XT M8120 brakes: By now the wandering bite point of the M8120 brakes is old news, but it's worth a brief mention. Theses brakes have almost everything going for them – there's tons of power and the lever shape is excellent, it's just that even with a perfect bleed the bite point can change from one pull of the lever to the next.
XT M8100 drivetrain: With quick, precise shifting, impressive lever ergonomics, and an adjustable clutch the XT M8100 drivetrain is one of the best options currently on the market. In fact, I'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference between XT and XTR in a blind test – it's really only the weight and price that separates one from the other.
Pros
+ Double sealed bearings, high level of attention to frame detail
+ Excellent cornering performance
+ Solid & speedy
Cons
- Not for gram counters
- Low bottom bracket can lead to more pedal strikes than usual
- Limited availability
Pinkbike's Take
| Don't be deceived by the Raaw Madonna V2's no-frills appearance – there's something very special about this bike. Not only is it build to survive just about anything, its performance out on the trails is highly addictive. The way that it rails turns and smashes through whatever gets in its way more than makes up for any weight related concerns. |
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326 Comments
Just wanted to let you know that there are those of us out there that really appreciate the function over form approach to the Madonna. And you pulled it off in a way that (imo) is quite good looking, which is even more impressive. Hats off to everyone you and everyone you work with.
I love the double sealed (and huge) bearings, and external cable routing. I like that you can adjust the chainstay length to find the right length for you (or just play around), and the two rocker options.
Are there any plans to do demos in the US in the future?
Bike looks rad BTW!
I bought a complete FOX and Shimano XT build and find that the value is absolutely great! There are NO compromises and weak parts on the build(ok, I swapped the rear tire to a 3C Maxxterra DHR once the Dual compound was half worn).
The frame has a very, very high end finish to it and is exceptionally well made. After a full season with loads and loads of riding the bearings were like new. The grease on (not in) the bearings under the special dust covers was looking fresh, like on a new bike. I didn't bother to open the bearings themselves, they worked fine - which I never had on any bike after that much riding before. A bearing change a season was the norm.
Also disassembling AND assembling the frame is an absolute breeze. Parts, bearings, rockers all fit like Lego. No bending, hammering, fumbling etc. involved. Which I can't say for my last frames from Specialized, Canyon and Giant. They all needed some convincing and a bit of elbow grease to mount the shock etc. tolerances etc.
And maybe as important as the quality of the product is the customer experience. RAAW bikes keeps me 100% happy and confident as a customer. They are easy to get in touch with, they seem very honest, friendly and I think they absolutely love mountain biking and are absolutely passionate about their bikes AND want their customers to be truly satisfied and not just to sell their product for a profit.
You can easily buy ALL spare parts and small parts or even upgrade to newer stuff (V1 - V2 there is a lot of intercompatibility). All bearings except the two giant main bearings are the same dimension, one bearing press is enough, no fiddling. So many details which I appreciated the more I rode and wrenched.
Privateer frames look remarkably similar to the Madonna (on photos, I haven't had a Privateer in my own hands), but value is not simply the price of a frame/bike - if you really ride it a lot and the brand has your back, that's going to make a big difference. And the devil is in the details!
I don´t have experience with Privateer bikes and I do hope they deliver a great product with great service. But as a customer you have to keep in mind, that they also need to pay their bills (or the ones of the frame builders etc). No business has money to burn (maybe Tesla with their stocks), so the cheaper price MAY come with some nitpicks at some point, whatever they might be. And they may or may not matter.
What I definitely can and will say, I am 100% happy with the price and value of my RAAW. Compared to some high-end carbon bikes I bought I'd say it's night and day better. Not for value reasons, but because it's hands down the nicest and best riding bike I've owned so far. Even though it was absolutely not the most expensive one =)
Yes, that basically sums it up
I'm in love with the bike already and it has only been a month. The cornering ability cannot be overstated - it is on rails and the traction is unbelievable front and rear. The traction in loose terrain and off-camber reminds me of a DH bike with coil front and rear, yet the bike is super playful and poppy still. Love the DPX2 on this bike.
Biggest surprise has been how versatile the bike is. It pedals really well, and it is still fun to ride on mellow and rolling trails because it corners so well and has a lot of pop. It's definitely the most trail-bikable enduro bike I have ridden, more so than my last two bikes (Wreckoning and a Ransom).
The low BB makes it a bit more challenging on technical chunky climbs as you need to time your pedal strokes, but I wouldn't change it because the low BB is what gives the bike it's Sam Hill cornering personality.
The Privateer looks amazing too - probably can't go wrong either way. But I can attest the Raaw is legit.
I have been riding my V2 on some mellow trails and one very steep trail. When it’s not going uphill or downhill the bike sort of feels like you’re driving a supercar in traffic. Sure, it gets the job done without any trouble but you could be in a prius and you’d really rather be on the nurburgring.
The Madonna is a beast of a bike but it’s a great example of a bike not to buy if you live somewhere with really mild terrain. I live in the PNW and ride a lot of steep fire roads up to steep descents which this bike just eats up.
I thought the Privateer 161 was cheaper than that in the US?
The straight conversion from lb sterling to USD is $1854, but I don't think we have to pay VAT here in the states, which I think is 20%. Which puts the frame + shock price at ~$1500. So then the price difference is even larger (~$1200).
@PrivateerBikes can you confirm what the US price is?
Thanks for the response.
Sounds like we don't have to pay VAT here, so it is a bit cheaper, but mostly depends on how strong the lb sterling is compared to the US dollar at the time.
Still, almost $1000 cheaper. Hard to ignore that.
Laziness won the day in my case!
"One of the bikes the Privateer 161 will inevitably be compared against is the new RAAW V2. Not only do they share similarities on paper and weigh about the same (3–3.5 kg for the frame) but the bikes also share a very similar aesthetic and Horst link suspension design. The Privateer features a steeper 80° seat tube angle (compared to the RAAWs 78.2°) and there is also a big difference in price, € 1,499 versus € 2,290. As tested, the Privateer prioritises huge mid-travel support and progressivity but cannot match the RAAW V2’s sublime planted feeling, grip and small bump sensitivity. The Privateer is a bike better used in strong hands, or as a race weapon, whereas the RAAW V2 comes at a premium, but will meet all those same demands while also offering a more relaxing and versatile ride feel."
Source: enduro-mtb.com/en/privateer-161-2020-review
Just an awesome looking bike.
I did buy one (in size M), it took a long time to get (as expected+covid complications). When i took it out of the box it was already scratched...no big deal for that type of bike, it will eventually get scratched anyways.
The thing that annoyed me the most is the fact that i was told that the bike would have weighted 15.6 kg (34.4 lbs) with 38 fork and dhx2 coil shock. As expected i was feeling the bike was quite heavy, but that was feeling a bit too heavy. I did a couple of calculations and with:
- 1 cushcore (290 g, 0.64lbs)
- mallet pedals (480g, 1.06 lbs)
- 200 additional grams for exo+ tires (0.44lbs)
i was expecting about 16.6 kg (36.6 lbs).
When i went to my lbs i put it on a scale and it turned out beeing 17.5kg (38.6 lbs). Basically the weight of a DH bike or very close to the lightest eMTBs on the market. I did cross check the measurement with 2 other scales, and the 17.5 kg were confirmed .
I've been trying to get an explaination from RAAWMTB about this weight difference and RAAWMTB was not able to provide me one. I finally decided to sell the bike loosing quite some money, that RAAWMTB would't even partially refound, despite the fact that they provided me WRONG NUMBERS in the pre-sale process. I cannot deny that the bike design is awesome and i loved it when going DH, but that weight doesn't justify.
That's my experience, i hope this helps you when chosing what bike to buy. I decided to share this story because i was deliberately ripped off and there was no real intention of making up for it, only a lot of blah blah blah, we are sorry, we care about customers, we cannot refound you the moeny you lost, ...
I got my self a norco sight instead. 10 mm less suspension travel, slimmer build, air shock, very similar geometries to the madonna, 15.5 kg with everything i mentioned + an inner tube strapped to the frame. Weight is not everything, but it's a simple measurement. When asked, the manufacturer should provide correct and sincere numbers.
Love it. Best bike so far in my live and not a contender on the horizon.
Also, it is hard to believe the price TAG. for Europe, the frame is 2900€ with a DHX-2 shox ! 2900 for an aluminium frame, direct to customer !
End of the dream here for me
Amazing bike though
I hope RAAW makes it big and moves into an economy of scale.
Our dollar is pretty bad for buying from Europe, so other frames I was looking at (Rocky Slayer, Norco Sight) in carbon were about the same level as the Madonna. I certainly wasn't saving any money ordering an aluminum frame from Germany.
But the attention to detail and the build quality of the Madonna frame is far beyond any high-end carbon frame I've owned. And, personally, I see the aluminum as a feature, not a detriment. At least when it's been used to such a high degree of craftsmanship, such as the case here. I know I will be riding this bike for years without issue and that it'll be a pleasure to work on when maintenance is required.
Shocking 28euro difference, for frame made in germany from far superior material by best welders in the business. WIth 5 year no questions warranty, guaranteed supply of spares for 10 years, possibility of changing colors if you so desire in the future etc. There really is no comparison and I actually like RAAW even though I prefer V1 for some reason, privateer is sweet and for that price absolute bargain too.
But you have to compare what can be compared.
The price of the AL Frame of the new propain Tyee is 1000 € cheaper than Raw
You can't compare big brands and direct to customer brands
And I fin it is even more a shame, because this bike looks absolutely perfect and definitely a bike I would have picked in my short list for my future trail bike if the price was more reasonable. But I don't think that 2800€ for an aluminium frame is a good price. (I don't have a Rolex neither, but I still like Rolex)
Though when I try to think of a reasonable analogy, the one that always comes to mind is this one (arguably) overpriced cooking knife I bought years back. It's not much different on the surface than a quality brand you'd get in a store, nor is it a brand that is available in a store to begin with. But the differences in quality become more and more obvious with each use and the extravagance of the expense soon feels justified. You still recognize that it was a lot to pay, but you also recognize that it's a fair price for that level of quality. Sorry if it's a bad analogy, but it's the best I can do.
The Tyee looks to be a great bike and I'd argue it's moreso an incredible bargain than the Madonna is as equally over-priced. Though I can't really make a judgement without seeing the quality of the frame first-hand. If it were to be up to the level of what Raaw has done with this bike, then I'd be extremely impressed!
Raaw Madonna, Banshee Titan, Privateer 161, GG Gnarvana.
But seriously, when someone in the industry who tests bikes for a living, says there is something special and addictive about how it rides and corners... you know its something special.
How did you get along with the high stack on the RAAW?
Thanks!
Last Glen (140/150)
Go the Knolly Fugitive ( or Fug ) If you’re after a mid travel Madonna.
Same Exceptional quality. Fantastic suspension, Sadly The Fug (Fuggenugly) got hit with that stick ( unlike the sexy RAAW )
You want a Banshee Prime. It’s a mini-Titan. I love my V2. I can only imagine the V3 is that much better.
I just pressed in new bearings on my V2 after beating the piss out of it for 3 seasons. It’s too well made, it’s never gonna die. If Banshee isn’t careful they won’t get any obsolescence from their bikes and I’ll never buy another. Better start making chainstays out of thin carbon.
Currently on a Knolly Fugitive LT which is pretty much an awesome version of just that.
Smaller wheels allow a more compact bike, so for things like dirt jumpers it makes sense. Beyond that, I just find it funny how people in the past were against 27.5 and stuck with 26, but now those same people are riding 27.5 and hating on 29.
I really, really like the looks of this bike, and the description sounds just like what I'm looking for. Anything that helps me corner like how I describe to my friends is worth it IMO
How does it compare in fit (and ride) to the Norco Sight? On paper they look pretty similar in many respects... and at least I'd be able to demo the Norco for fit, whereas it doesn't seem likely that I'll even get a chance to throw a leg over the Madonna before I owned it. Wondering if it could be used as a proxy for fit testing?
here is a comparison review.
'I've seen some online mutterings about steep seat tube angles being a poor choice for flat terrain. I didn't find that to be the case on the mild three-mile approach to my local trails, although the Madonna does have a fairly tall front end and a higher rise bar, which put me in a comfortable, upright position'.
Agreed on this, as someone who rides a Pole Evolink 140. You do need to get the correct stack / rise to make it comfortable but its a fine balance without making the front end too high for descending.
'Also, if you are concerned about a bike's performance in the flats, it might be best to look for something other than a slack, 160mm enduro bike'.
I don't 100% agree on this (but I get the gist of what you're saying...): I an ride from home but have an 80% road pedal to get to the decent bits that warrant a bigger bike so I want reasonable efficiency and comfort.
Or even better, an aluminum long travel shootout, RAW vs G1 vs Privateer 161 vs Evolink 158/Stamina 180..... that would be quite interesting to read.
I know Pole may not be making more evolinks but to me, that's the group test I want to see. It's basically all the bikes I considered (went for an Evolink 158 in the end.
I have my 160mm bike (Wreckoning in X-Low with a -1 degree headset 160 fork) at nearly the same numbers including the low BB height (334) and head angle (64.5). Nothing I've ridden corners/handles like it does and while my bike is now three years old, I'd have a hard time going back to something with a higher BB.
did you test with an x2 during development as well? i ask because i am running a push elevensix on my current bike and found the x2 to be a very good approximation of the feel of that shock, whereas the dpx2 i tried felt terrible. i understand that bikes are usually designed around a particular shock platform but if an x2 would work on the madonna, i would be even closer to pulling the trigger.
thanks!
in fact - on their website:
'We work closely with FOX and have custom tunes. We offer two air and one coil options.'
i got so drawn in to the photos i didn't scroll far enough!
"This is the shock [DPX2] we like most. It fits the character of the Madonna perfectly and is very straight forward in its setup. And it crams an immense amount of party into its deceptively small size."
And Mike's statement that:
"I also installed a Float X2 for a portion of the test period, and ended up preferring the feel of the DPX2. It gave the bike a more lively, awake feel; the Float X2 muted some of that liveliness, and made the bike feel a little sluggish on more rolling terrain."
i just meant in general have you tried switching between those two shocks and experienced anything similar? i know the frame design matters in this case but it seems that the x2 is really just an upgrade over the dpx2 and ideally would perform better.
What I wanted to add to the discussion here is that when I'm looking at new frames, I often have a number of questions for manufacturers in order to aid in my decision making and plan a final build. Ruben was always the first to get back to me (even beyond those manufacturers in my own country) and always provided the most relevant and detailed information in order to answer my queries. There's something about having the opportunity to speak directly to a bike's engineer that I know I will appreciate as I continue to fine-tune this bike and inevitably find reasons to bother them again.
www.mtb-news.de/forum/t/last-coal-clay-glen-thread-aufbauten-tipps-einstellungen-teile-alles-rund-ums-coal.793062/page-267#post-16299824
for example.
You can run a 65 mm stroke shock in the rocker 60 and it will give you 172 mm of travel. But like you said, you'd need to run more sag to actually use the extra 12 mm of travel at the rear wheel. And that would change the geo quite a bit. If you run the same sag, you've just got a bit of extra travel instead. That's why we don't think there is a big advantage in running a 172 mm setup on the Madonna. But the option of the Rocker 60 or Rocker 65 is a whole different topic.
What im interested in is why wouldnt you run the longer stroke shock on the 60 link. There is no disadvantage at all to the extra 12mm of travel if you keep the sag the same 17ish mm at the shock. It seems odd to throw a spacer in the shock just to deny yourself a bit of extra squish. Whats the point?
Longer e2e would push geo back to normal with a smaller real wheel, but would likely mess up kinematics quite drastically in early stroke.
I always wondered why EWS racers would choose the Stumpy over the Evo or the Enduro, and this is what people always told me. At some point, either you want a full DH bike or not.
Interesting choices. Those changes would raise the BB and the "effective BB" (shorter cranks raise the rider's CG when a pedal is at 6 o'clock)... thus removing some of the "absolute riot when it comes to cornering or carving down the steeps."
Yes!!
It's sold out on the website, so is looking good!
I have two bikes with M8000 Brakes, and one bike with a M8100 Brake (2 Piston though) and NEVER had an Issue. Seriously Never.
Did you notice that Pinkbike often features Sram adverts but rarely Shimano adverts?... rather odd
I saw a video somewhere, they tiltet the levers up and down while bleeding, to get rid of air bubbles in the reservoir, maybe that will help some people.
Also, almost everyone I know that had SRAM Guide Brakes HATED them and swapped them out for Maguras or Shimano. But somehow every Pinkbike review is praising them.
And thanks for the excessive neg. propping so my comment isn't visible
True. My favorite that I have tried are SRAM but I really like my Maguras as well and Tektro are likely my next stoppers.
Personally, I find too low of cranks dangerous, but it is a fragile balance.
Weight shift _towards the front_ makes the _rear dip down_??
I thought this well fairly well known by now.
I guess the limiting factor would be e2e measurements at full extension. You dont want to mess with that. Other than that as long as the rocker doesnt clash with the frame there would be no reason not to run the longest stroke possible
That's a ridiculous statement. Pretty sure an X2 can be tuned to feel pretty damn close to a DPX2. That's kind of the point of it having all those adjustments...
Yes, I understand they feel different, since they are different systems, but to say the X2 can't be tuned to be "better" (for most/all values of better) than a DPX2, well, I'll bet Jordi would have something to say about that.
Gimme!
Any stock in size small for complete build?
I can see that there is a small frame set available.
I'd be all in for a trail version, same features and build, just a bit less slack, a bit less travel, a bit less 29" wheels.
Move over downcountry, desenge is the word for 2020
But for the Madonna it is designed in germany and made in china. So if nobody has a problem to buy an iphone with that hefty pricetag there sure are people lusting to buy something well thought out in good old germany.
(To everyone else, yes, I know 29ers seem to "feel" just as manueverable and flickable now, but it's just physics: 27s on a same/similar bike are MORE of both. If you value those things over raw speed, then 27 is the better choice.)
So sure, you'll "get used to it" on a 29er, and eventually be able to flick the bike around like you could on a 26 or 27. But I'd rather get used to whipping my 27er just that little bit further, instead of getting used to managing the biike ol' wagon wheels. I'd rather have to put up a little fight with the trail to get the perfectish line to make that new rock to rock double I just found, instead of my massive wheels making everything seem smoother. For that I wouldn't be on a mountain bike, I'd be on the road.
Yes, there are limits. There is a reason we're not all on 20" wheels (But, look at what Ruben Alcantara is doing! Shit yeah!). But the industry and media really is pushing _everyone_ (adult) to 29ers like it's the greatest f*cking thing since sliced-bread-that-is-auto-toasted. I mean, I'm pretty sure the latest Field Trip only had one 27.5, but two hardtails (both 29). Shit, one of my local shops only stocks 29ers (for MTBs). The only 27.5 in the store is on the models where the S and XS don't come in 29. Allegedly that's all people are buying. However if they can't test/demo any 27s, and there literally aren't any to even look at or just sit on, that logic is a little flawed.
Kids can be too small for even a 26" wheel bike, but all adults, small and tall, are expected to fit on a 29er nowadays. If I was 6'4", I'd be so happy there are 29ers and XXL frames that really fit me. But I'm not, and neither is the average male, and especially not the average female. So why does a 5'1" person who fits maybe a 380mm reach want to deal with the same 435mm chainstay (because can't go much/any smaller on a 29er) as the 6'4" dude on 510mm reach? That's insane, those bikes would ride so differently. Plus the smaller person has even less mass to push around those big wheels with, so while they'll "get used to it", they'll be trading that for "getting used to" snapping around corners even tighter, throwing even bigger whips, and doing manuals so well you could just take your front wheel right off (because chainstays that much longer than reach, like a S or XS 29er, makes for a hard-to-lift front wheel).
*I'm actually all-for wheel sizes matching frame sizes: racers probably will choose the biggest they can get comfortable on (When do we see Minnaar on 31" or whatever? He's already got the chainstay length for it!), but for Average Joe and Jill, a more realistic size with balanced geometry front-to-rear (which is impossible in smaller sizes with needing to fit a 29er inside the chainstays.), that is going to be _so_ much more fun. And the "small" wheels will still go fast enough to scare the shit out of yourself every if you want to.
Most people benefit more from a balanced, adaptable, well-fitting bike, rather that one that is designed around the biggest wheels available just because those wheels are some tiny percent faster at the very top upper level of the sport. Jamming those wheels into the smaller end of a size range is going to have some compromises.
Regarding rollover, it's marketed as being able to, and does, literally makes the trail seem smoother. Is that really what we want? Considering how often people bitch about "everything is a flow trail now"... maybe not? I, for one, mountain bike _because_ there are rocks and roots and trees and everything in/on the trail. Would I trade those trails feeling a little smoother and not having to worry about picking a line as much, for having to pick and think and work for my line a tiny bit harder but also be able to dodge, dip, duck, dive, and dodge with less energy (because science)? No. Sure maybe I'm 1 minute slower over a few miles, who cares? And if you do, why not just get stronger? A core 29er group likes them because they tend to go uphill faster, and they like going up fast because they're very fit and they like being fit. So wouldn't the"less efficient" 27er be a better choice, because it will literally make you fitter by not being as easy rolling (but still easy rolling; I mean come on, it's not like we're comparing rollover between 29er and 16" wheels)
Again, I'm not saying get rid of 29ers (like the way the industry booted 26. Just think how hard it is to get good 26" parts, which still work on the same trails as ever, if some places already don't even stock 27s). Just that it's not a one-size-fits all thing. Yes,modern geo has made 29ers damn-good, but that means it can be even more damn-gooder on smaller wheels.
I did buy one (in size M), it took a long time to get (as expected+covid complications). When i took it out of the box it was already scratched...no big deal for that type of bike, it will eventually get scratched anyways.
The thing that annoyed me the most is the fact that i was told that the bike would have weighted 15.6 kg (34.4 lbs) with 38 fork and dhx2 coil shock. As expected i was feeling the bike was quite heavy, but that was feeling a bit too heavy. I did a couple of calculations and with:
- 1 cushcore (290 g, 0.64lbs)
- mallet pedals (480g, 1.06 lbs)
- 200 additional grams for exo+ tires (0.44lbs)
i was expecting about 16.6 kg (36.6 lbs).
When i went to my lbs i put it on a scale and it turned out beeing 17.5kg (38.6 lbs). Basically the weight of a DH bike or very close to the lightest eMTBs on the market. I did cross check the measurement with 2 other scales, and the 17.5 kg were confirmed .
I've been trying to get an explaination from RAAWMTB about this weight difference and RAAWMTB was not able to provide me one. I finally decided to sell the bike loosing quite some money, that RAAWMTB would't even partially refound, despite the fact that they provided me WRONG NUMBERS in the pre-sale process. I cannot deny that the bike design is awesome and i loved it when going DH, but that weight doesn't justify.
That's my experience, i hope this helps you when chosing what bike to buy. I decided to share this story because i was deliberately ripped off and there was no real intention of making up for it, only a lot of blah blah blah, we are sorry, we care about customers, we cannot refound you the moeny you lost, ...
I got my self a norco sight instead. 10 mm less suspension travel, slimmer build, air shock, very similar geometries to the madonna, 15.5 kg with everything i mentioned + an inner tube strapped to the frame. Weight is not everything, but it's a simple measurement. When asked, the manufacturer should provide correct and sincere numbers.
I love shimano when they work good but thats only two pulls of the lever....
raawmtb.com/collections/popular/products/wolf-tooth-mini-strap-mount
Then it's not really a "perfect bleed". Or there is flex around the hub causing pad knock-back. Or mineral oil really does suck as a brake fluid: its hydrophobic properties are really a bad thing: water will get in, and then pool together where it can then boil at its much lower boiling point and change the system characteristics. Perfect bleed" ruined. With DOT fluids, water ingress just lowers the boiling point of the whole system, but it is still well above what normal riders can do.
Unless someone can give a plausible mechanical explanation of how a bite-point could change internally without fluid gain or loss, can we just drop this topic forever?
Don`t worry if a majority of mtbikers don`t understand that statement; they just can`t ;-)