Ride Performance
Many of the EP8's first impressions still hold true after testing it for a longer period of time. In some regards however, it's painting a somewhat different picture.
You hear it often with e-bikes that power is nothing without control, and Shimano sure delivered in that regard. Not only does the EP8 deliver more power than the E8000 in any situation, the new ride mode algorithms deliver a smooth and well-rounded power transfer, with torque smoothly progressing no matter how hard you stomp the pedals or what ride mode you choose.
Test bike
Merida eONE-SIXTY 8000 2021
Battery: Shimano BT-E8036 630Wh
Tires: Maxxis Minion DHF Exo+ MaxxTerra 29 x 2.6" front, Minion DHR II DD MaxxTerra 27.5 x 2.6" rear
Weight: 23.21kg/51.06 lbs. (w/o pedals)
Propain Ekano
Battery: Shimano BT-E8035 504Wh
Tires: Schwalbe Eddy Current Soft 29 x 2.6" front, 27.5 x 2.6" rear
Weight: 23.86kg/52.5 lbs. (w/o pedals)
Especially at lower cadences, the new motor can handle loads much better and propel you forward without a drop off in power, even in steep terrain. Speaking of steep terrain, it's much easier to get the bike going from a standstill in those kinds of situation, as the power added to the pedals smoothly transfers to the rear wheel. It's rather easy to control rider input and power delivery in general, even in Boost mode, where the power output used to be much harder to control in the past.
In direct comparison to Bosch's Performance Line XC Gen 4 or Specialized's 2.1 (Brose Drive S Mag), both those competitors still offer slightly more punch in their highest ride modes, although the difference is not nearly as big as it was compared to the E8000.
After having played around with each of the settings in the E-Tube Project app, I found Shimano's new setup for the Trail mode a great choice for various riding conditions. I used to avoid using the underpowered Trail mode on the previous version, but utilizing the full 85Nm of maximum torque when needed with a much more powerful base setup means that mode will see a lot more use. If you enjoyed it the way it was, you can simply detune the setup.
The only thing that could possibly be improved upon, with Shimano's factory setup for Profile 1 already being set to the highest setting for all options in Boost mode, would be to actually increase the possible output for all those variables as an option for riders looking for an even punchier feel from the motor. Even if maximum torque was carved into stone, higher options for assist character and assist start might elevate the EP8's power output to level equal to Bosch's Gen 4 or Brose's Drive S Mag.
Being able to change between two motor setup profiles from your display is a useful feature. You can even do so during your ride, although you have to stop to allow the system to switch over. It mainly allows you to create a more aggressive setup for your after-work-loop and one for those epic day's ride where you want to make sure that you make it out of the woods with energy to spare.
With the option to custom-tune those two profiles further, Shimano's E-Tube app is a smart tool for anyone interested in tweaking their motor's behavior to their ideas. In the end, many riders only predominantly use the Eco and Trail mode, so them detuning the Boost mode probably makes a lot of sense. Since Profile 2 of the stock setup does reduce the overall power and power transfer from all modes, they might be happier just by selecting that option.
Also, having these options allows bike manufacturers to create profiles according to what they think matches their bike's character best, or helps them to introduce new concepts with smaller batteries and lighter overall weight to the market, like what Rotwild is doing.
There is still a slight initial transition every time you start spinning the cranks from standstill and when abruptly stopping to pedal, although it's much less than before. It's a subtle double-clicking resistance that can slightly be felt through the pedals and, if you pay attention, even be heard. It really doesn’t affect the ride quality though, and at some point you just forget that it's even there. Plus, it's not that often that you start from standstill during a ride to begin with. Having said all that, I have found one situation where it bothered me slightly, which was during track stands where the constant cutting in and out make balancing a bit more undefined. Since doing track stands on your e-bike won't be a high priority, I'd say it's not an issue.
One of the greatest strengths of the EP8 is how quiet it is under load, even in Boost mode. Only at really high cadences does the motor noise increases slightly, but even then it stays composed. It's more a hum than a whine, and easy to forget about in seconds, especially in the flats or over rolling terrain. The motor is probably the quietest full-size motor on the market today, at least as long as you are not coasting over uneven terrain.
i hope they get it fixed ,because it's a great motor except for the noise .
Which sucks!!!!!
please share your vast knowledge of what goes on inside ebike motors......
@milkdrop: Please do.
But the novelty wears off when you ride one all the time!
I am open to ebikes but I am not open to paying for crap. And what ever you may think, annoying rattles = crap in my world.
You dick lol!
You basically can't afford one, that's the truth isn't it? My Kenevo is, and has been flawless for two years, makes no weird noises and is the most 'refined' bike i've ever owned...
Do you bitch about good looking women too because you can't get one of them either...?
Is this the bad trail maners we've been hearing about from e-bikers?
Kidding but definitely jealous. I really want the SL. I'm sure we will see more bikes implementing the same slimmer/sleeker design.
I 100% wouldn't change a thing though, it's literally the best thing i've ever bought in my life...
I've always made sacrifices for bikes, all the way back in '97 when i bought a Marin B-17, my first proper bike. That cost me £1260.. Back then, and to me, that was more money than i'd ever even seen, i got that on 4 years credit, INTEREST BEARING!!! God knows how much i eventually paid...
The point is, most people bitch, whine, put e-bikes down and generally make out like they are against e-bikes purely because they can't or WONT afford one, and it pisses me off because you could ALL have an ebike or whatever bike you want if you are willing to sacrifice other stuff.
Maybe you don't care about biking that much, maybe you have a family or video games are more important or whatever, but don't pretend they're shit just because you don't have one.
Get a second job, sell some shit, give up crack, do whatever you can, because most of the people you see riding super nice bikes have done exactly that, we're not all dentists!!!
I wouldn't mind to ride an e-bike when I'm pushing my mule loaded with a chainsaw, shovel, rake and 2 or 3 water gallons or when I'm towing my kids up the hill. Then I remember the fuss of the batteries, especific app and all the pieces that are prone to failure and I give up.
I break a lot of bike stuff. Simply is better for me. I even probabily forget to charge the batteries betwen rides.
I switched to ebikes a year ago and spend the entire day in the lowest power mode. I even use the app to dial the power down a little, so you get assistance but still get a decent workout too. On a 504wh battery (the older smaller one) I can get around 4.5K to 5K of climbing on steep stone/mud hills.
If you ride alone or with another ebike, you can get so many trails done and you're riding at a decent pace with little to no rests, so i generally get a better workout too.
Who needs that stupid display anyway?
Specizlized has that dialed on their bikes. Super low profile batt / power readout and then the rest is in the app...which works.
Ive seen a bunch of broses burn out and theyre not easy to service(you have to replace the motor)
After 2 years when the warranty comes to an aend i want a engine that you can easily replace most of the parts.
Moisture in the engine is a common way to destroy bearings and electrics.
My 2016 citybike with shimano steps lasted 13400miles. (The gears on inside) but shimano replaced the engine for free four yrs after buy=thumbs up
Normal? According to who?
For the record, most of our bikes / ebikes, do not 'click'.
Do the Shimano PR team even ride bikes?
Oh sorry, I tried to write poetry too but it kinda starts to turn into an unintended rant. Sorry for that. I'm not destined to write poetry. Shimano does. Rattle and Poetry. Eat that, U2.
Yes 1: As a customer you might consider this an issue and want it to be solved without them pointing out what is so good about the product.
No 1: What they did here was point out that the additional noise is a consequence of improvements they made to the product. If you don't want the noise, you're not getting the improvements either. Not sure whether they still offer the older E8000 and E7000 motors. If so, then you do have the option.
No 2: What I meant to point out here is that the Shimano response was a truly remarkable display of tuned overly slick crisis management. If it wasn't for social distancing, they would have invited Ralph in their lobby, pushed him into a comfy chair and offered him a cup of their finest tea blend. And probably a goody bag on the way out. It is a quality in its own right, completely separate from creating a proper product. Not saying it is the way to go but damn, it takes a freaky slick creature to pen that response down. It is so over the top you can only admire it.
To be honest I don't pay enough attention to Apple and the phone business in general, just quickly looked it up. So far I don't quite see how it is comparable. From what I understand from it the issue was affecting the primary function of the phone so it truly is a major issue and it didn't increase performance in any way. What we have here with the motor is that the primary function (providing controlled proportional pedaling support) has improved with a by-effect (noise when coasting) that doesn't affect the main functions. You could say they underestimated the demand for a silence when they set priorities and made their design decision. It is a new issue and as far as I know, not quite something they should have been aware of. I don't view it as a mistake, mostly as a misjudgement of priorities. People want power, efficiency, durability, proportional support, low drag when coasting... Now they know people want little to no noise when coasting. They'll implement it in their next design. But I think it is harsh to say it is a faulty design.
A bit like sprinters vs endurance runners. A lot more grit and grind for the analogue/sprinter, but a more consistent lower energy level for longer on the ebike / endurance.
www.cyclevolta.com/story/ebike-components/hold-up-shimanos-new-emtb-motor
That said, it’s a very minor negative. You could cover my e8000 display with black tape and I’ll still ride that bike any chance I get!
This might be the weakest "con" ever. Ever.
The motor to watch for is the new Sachs Micro Mobility from germany . it's in partner ship with Magura BMZ and one other company .
Their new motor has 110 Nm and two battery choices . one @ 625 w and the other @ 820 or about that. That's some impressive specs.
The motor is designed to put out 50% of its power during start up and low cadence . It was specifically designed for
MTBs and Cargo bikes where one needs a lot of low cadence power . Its currently available in Bulls bikes and Nox e mtbs out of austria/ germany . Sounds good but , time will tell.
A few companies that are about to release bikes very similar, longer range, a whole lot more torque and lighter!
Not trying to hate on SpecializEd #....
But I have and have had lots of friends that are on the fifth and six motors form Specialized and still are burning out the new ones.
It’s funny how they don’t talk about that on PinkBike our other forms????
But still feel having more than one internal gear will work better?
www.avdweb.nl/solar-bike/solarbike/maxun-solar-bike
What I want to know is whether the Shimano motor has zero cadence support, ie does the motor have two freewheels?
This means that in principle it is possible for the motor to drive the bicycle while the bottom bracket is not rotating.
(I use my own electronics with a throttle)
Currently, I own two e-bikes with a new 2022 Moustache Samedi 26 Fat 4 with the Bosh Motor on its way. One is a Haibike Fat-Tire with a Yamaha Drive, the second is an absolutely brilliant 40lb (including battery) DIODE from LaMere Cycles in the USA. The DIODE has the Shimano E8000 motor and both bikes regardless of motor specs and differences do one thing really, really well...they make riding FUN! At my age 69, if it isn't fun, exciting, and challenging, count me out! An e-Mtb allows me to ride farther, and more often and smile from beginning to end, not just the downhill sections! Just kidding! Don't take things too seriously just get out there and enjoy whatever you own and have FUN!
You sure bro...? Or is that a bit of a lie...?
There will never be dynamos or regenerative braking on emtb's, they're trying to make them lighter, not heavier, i'll bet you'll buy one when you can regardless..
And this is the real rub with e-bikes. Why the f*ck would I choose to have to think about how much battery boost I have left? (If I'm not hauling gear back and forth for a trail work day or such.) Would you just turn around and cut your ride short if you underestimated your range? If you're checking often enough that the menus get annoying, it obviously sucks to pedal an unpowered e-bike.
(Usual caveats apply for riders with disabilities or health issues where e-assist is not a choice but a necessity for continued riding.)
Demod an ebike the other month. Ordered one the day after. For me it's a simple calculation, one of my local trails is a 22km Red/Black. With family duties etc I can get a lap in under 2 hours, be back home and spend the rest of the Sunday without the mrs feeling hard done by. On an ebike, I can 2/3 laps of the same trail. 2/3 x the adrenaline of the downs which is really what I ride for.
Same with Downhill, at Steve Peats Steel City they have great push/pedal climbs to get back to the top. Realistically after 8 runs I am shattered! Ebike, easily get in 16 + if my arms hold up to it!
Again I understand the hate, it's definitely not for everyone, but has absolutely changed my riding
Do you have plans to recycle your battery? Because after a couple years, you won't be getting that same extra 50% distance, since most systems are only warrantied to maintain ~75% capacity after a few years or few hundred charge cycles. And those things aren't something you can just chuck in a landfill.
I don't hate e-bikes, I'm planning on getting one for commuting once my office opens up fully again and I have a commute further than bedroom to living room desk. However, I do hate motorized bikes (that's what they are, regardless of pedal-assist or throttle) on trails made and used for human-powered travel.
And they definitely have more impact on the trails, evidenced by the fact that everyone is selling extra strong components as "e-bike specific". If they need to be extra strong, that's because more forces are going through them, and thus into the trail. It's not the extra weight of the bike, because then they'd be putting e-bike stuff on L and XL bikes since the riders of those would tend to weigh more. "The maximum rider support was raised to 400%" -- up to four times more power than is put into the pedals! You can't tell me that's not having a trail impact.
This might not apply to you, but I'll throw it in anyway:
The "keeping up with your buddies" excuse doesn't fly with me. If your crew gets pissed that someone "can't keep up", then you need a new crew. At least a group who can differentiate between a training ride and a fun ride. No one should have to spend more money on a more complicated machine to "keep up" on a fun ride.
Added to the above, I pay to park at my trails that help fund them. I don't offer extra as I'm on an ebike, however one of the jump places I go to charges more for ebikes as we can get more runs in. So I guess this should be down to the trail owners rather than putting the onus on me? If I really wanted to go down an elongated route, I'd point out how manufacturers since turning to ebikes have since received the largest rise in purchases of their brand in a very long time. (Hence all the sold out bikes). Funding the industry that we both love is surely a good thing, and in turn gets more people out to trails increasing traffic flow / sales / attendance. All beneficial to trails.
With the amount of batteries in everyday tech that are not suitable for landfills, on millions of products, sold in their billions all over the world. I think ebikes probably rank pretty low in the grand scheme. Ideal? Absolutely not, but if you're asking me how I'm going to save the world with a 1 x ebike purchase that I plan to own for many years to come (Unlike a lot of tech with batteries) then I'm afraid I'll have to disappoint you here and admit I'm not the next Elon Musk.
I have to point out that as you're looking at everything with a negative viewpoint, there are factors you may ignore as they don't fit your anger:
Such as 'Trails made for human-powered bikes'. You know roads weren't originally made for engine powered cars? Things move on. There's a lot of people riding since the creation of ebikes that never used to, and if they're riding at places that they have to pay for (Parking / entry / cafe food etc), then that's additional income to those businesses they wouldn't have seen. I'm not trying to claim that the financial benefits will outweigh the labour cost as I don't have that information, but you 'are' trying to claim they won't.
E-bike specific components. If you truly believe that the majority of those aren't more to do with sales marketing, then you haven't spent enough time on the Pinkbike comments section
You're correct the latter doesn't apply to me, and I'm in full agreement with you there. Waiting at the top for a mate never bothered me, if anything gave me an extra chance to take in the views.
Perhaps when i'm around 60 I'll be posting that 'I've just got my first Ebike' but until then I'll keep enjoying the real freedom.
Is there a fix?
IMO ebikes should have simply an On & OFF or Assist ~ No Assist, not power* levels...Current ECO(lowest power mode) is well beyond enough.....Turbo/Boost modes, more power and larger batteries will only harm this sport and segment. with reckless riding...Honestly at that point you are no longer mountain biking but rather moto cross riding and I am an ebike/mountain bike rider...
Focus-Specialized-Lapierre were on the right track with smaller & lighter
Start your bike? Your mountain bike? You have to "start" it?
(And you don't have a disability or health issue?)
Wow.
Why build motors with less power than others?
Consumerism has been around for a long time and people will simply buy what's marketed to them, or what they see friends (or, god forbid, influencers) own, or what's convenient or (the horror) fun, bank account be damned!
Consumers gonna consumer...
Try doing that every day on an analogue.
I love both my bikes, digital & analogue - they both have their place, and they are both bloody brilliant