Review: TRP's New DH-R EVO Brakes

May 5, 2020
by Mike Kazimer  
TRP DHR EVO


Love 'em or hate 'em, e-bikes have inspired the development of products that are also well suited to downhill or enduro applications. Heavy-duty tires, burly forks, brakes with oversized rotors – there's a growing list of items built with durability in mind that work just as well with or without a motor.

TRP's new four-piston DH-R EVO brakes are a prime example. Back in 2018, Neko Mullaly began experimenting with TRP's e-bike brakes on his downhill bike, which lead to the development of the first generation of DH-R brakes.

The EVO brakes are an updated version of that model, with several changes intended to give them more power, consistency, and improved lever feel. They're not just for DH bikes, though; the range of rotor sizes (from 180mm all the way to 223mm) allows them to be adapted to everything from trail bikes to big-wheeled downhill sleds.

TRP DH-R EVO Details

• Tool-free lever reach adjust
• 4-piston caliper
• Mineral oil
• 180, 200, 220, and 223mm rotor options
• 2.3mm thick rotors
• Weight: 311 grams (actual, front caliper w/pads, hose, and lever)
• MSRP: $229.99 USD per wheel w/o rotor
www.trpcycling.com
The DH-R EVO brakes weigh in at 311-grams for the front lever, caliper with pads, and brake line. Price? $229.99 per brake without a rotor – those go for $34.99 - $54.99 depending on the size.


TRP DHR EVO

Details

The DH-R EVO brakes use mineral oil to push its four stainless steel / composite pistons. The caliper is specifically designed for use with 2.3mm thick rotors; according to TRP that extra width creates a 47% increase in torsional stiffness and an 8% better cooling capacity compared to the usual 1.8mm rotor. Of course, more material does come with a slight weight penalty – for comparison, TRP's 203mm rotor weighs 244-grams versus 186-grams for a SRAM 200mm rotor.

Updates from the previous version include a 9mm lever body piston, which changes the leverage ratio to increase the amount of power available at each finger. The hydraulic line diameter has been reduced from 5.5mm down to 5mm in order to make it compatible with internally routed frames, and it's said to be stiffer, too, for improved hydraulic pressure.

Other details include a trimmed down lever blade shape, complete with dimples and holes for a little extra traction, a tool-free reach adjust, and TRP's new 'Performance Resin' pads that are claimed to have a relatively short bed-in time and increased heat stability. TRP also offer metallic pads, and the shape is identical to what Shimano uses for their four-piston brakes, which increases the chances that a shop will have replacement options available in a pinch.

Even the mineral oil received an update – the new oil is less viscous and has a higher boiling point for better performance during sustained, heavy braking.


TRP DHR EVO
TRP uses a 2.3mm thick rotor, compared to the more common 1.8mm thickness.

TRP DHR EVO
Pick your power level - there are 180, 200, 220, and 223mm rotor diameter options.
TRP DHR EVO
The DH-R EVO brakes are equipped with TRP's new Performance Resin pads.


Installation

Getting the DH-R EVO brakes up and running was no trouble at all. The fact that they use mineral oil is appreciated – in a world full of gloves and face masks, it's nice to know you're not getting a toxic chemical on your hands or bike frame.

The bleed procedure is extremely simple, and in most cases installing the brakes will only need a quick lever bleed. A full system bleed doesn't take much longer – it's as easy as pushing fluid from the caliper out of the lever body, closing the port on the caliper, pulling the lever a few times to get rid of any stubborn bubbles, and then removing the thread-in funnel from the lever.


TRP DHR EVO
Dimples and speed holes are found on each lever blade.
TRP DHR EVO
Tool free reach-adjust, and a split clamp design for easy installation.


Performance

I've spent the last two months with the DH-R EVO brakes mounted on a Norco Optic. No, that's not a downhill bike, but the fact that I don't need a chairlift or shuttle truck to get me to the top means that I've been able to get in a bunch of miles on these brakes, including plenty of steep, rotor-toasting sections of trail.

How do they feel? Well, there's no shortage of easily accessible power, and the good news is that it's easy to control. That ramp-up from when the pads first hit the rotors to full lock-up happens more quickly than it does with SRAM's Code brakes, although it's not quite as immediate as Shimano's Saint stoppers. The modulation medal still goes to those Codes, but I didn't have any trouble staying on the right side of the line between slowing down and unwanted skidding on slippery trails with the TRP's.

In previous reviews of TRP's brakes, the amount of sheer power tended to be a little less than expected – that's no longer the case, and these new stoppers can easily go head-to-head with the strongest brakes out there.

TRP DHR EVO
Oooh, shiny.
TRP DHR EVO
Each caliper holds four stainless steel / composite pistons.

One trail that I often use for testing equipment drops 2,000 vertical feet in 1.5 miles, and includes plenty of sustained sections where fully letting off the brakes simply isn't an option. It's the type of run where a bad bleed or underpowered brakes are immediately noticeable. The DH-R EVO's passed that test with flying colors – the feel at the lever remained unchanged from top to bottom, and even on the steepest sections there was still power in reserve. I was running a 200mm front and a 180mm rear rotor and there was more than enough power to slow the Optic down, no matter the speed or steepness.

I'm usually not a fan of organic pads – in my experience they tend to fade quickly and perform poorly in wet conditions – but TRP's new compound has been working well, and I haven't been tempted to swap them out for a set of metallic pads. They didn't take long to bed in, and they have a strong initial bite without being too grabby.

Personally, I prefer the wider lever blade shape found on SRAM's brakes, but I'm well aware that there are lots of riders out there who'd choose the thinner lever profile that Shimano uses. TRP's lever shape falls somewhere in between the two; if anything, the feel is closer to a Shimano lever than SRAM. I did notice that the levers don't snap back to position quite as quickly as they do on a set of Shimano or SRAM brakes – there's a little less resistance at the beginning of the stroke before pad contact occurs. It's a tiny difference, and I rarely found myself thinking about it out on the trail, but it's worth a mention.





Pros

+ Very consistent lever feel
+ Lots of controllable power
+ Powered by mineral oil

Cons

- Lever ergonomics are decent, but not the best
- No pad contact adjustment




Pinkbike's Take

bigquotesIf you're in the market for a fresh set of brakes, the DH-R EVO's are worth serious consideration. With an extremely consistent lever feel, easy setup, and plenty of manageable power, TRP's new brakes hit the mark. Mike Kazimer








362 Comments

  • 132 1
 Funny that it’s 2020 and “very consistent lever feel” is a noteworthy characteristic for a braking system.
  • 96 8
 Thank you Shimano!
  • 45 15
 Blame that to Shimano and sram.. Although there are several good versions on both, they have suffered of bad and terrible versions and batches... I'll stick to magura,
  • 19 0
 Ironically, Shimano’s Grimeca-engineered/made year-2000 XT 4 pistons were (and are) excellent...very consistent lever feel, lots of controllable power, are powered by mineral oil, and have great lever ergonomics — countless pairs of which are still in operation (but they’re really only any good with Shimano’s excellent metallic brake pads). It all seemed to go wrong for Shimano after Grimeca’s influence waned.
  • 7 1
 @Lagr1980: Yes, my Maguras have been great. Amazing modulation. MT7’s, Gustavs, and year-2000 Shimano XT 4-pistons are by far the best I’ve used in terms of power / modulation / consistency, etc.
  • 71 32
 @Lagr1980: sram didn’t suffer from inconsistent lever feel like it was in Shimano. If a Sram brake is going to fail it is getting worse and worse in a consistent manner Big Grin

But if you ask me, I prefer Sram. Shimano is some scary sht. One day it’s ok, another the bite is all over the place, you bleed it it’s great and then in the middle of a rock garden in wet it grabs instantly. I just bled XT that I put on commuter, the fluid that came out was almost completely black. And Last time I bled it was january. With News of latest XT and XTR still suffering from this issue I have zero wish to buy any brake from them. Also got my first Hope lately and power is a joke. So Sram for me thank you. I wish they made it easier to bleed their brakes.
  • 12 2
 @WAKIdesigns: Yeah, Servowave and their master cylinder design are sub-par in terms of hydraulic design (and thus the inconsistent lever) and producing good modulation (a function of Servowave’s emphasis on power not modulation + master cylinder engineering deficiencies).
  • 10 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Shimano should have stuck with Grimeca’s XT 4-piston engineering and production from 99/00.
  • 32 4
 @WAKIdesigns: which hopes? Have you tried pulling harder? Did it help?
  • 5 0
 @Lagr1980: Does Magura's levers really become loose after a while like I'm reading in some reviews?
  • 11 4
 @WAKIdesigns: the new shimanos are very bad. The saints are awesome and consistent but whatever they did to the new iteration of brakes is genuinely horrible. One time the bite is far away and the next time you pull it’s almost to the bar. I don’t even know how they managed to screw it up but it’s genuinely scary not knowing if and where you’re going to brake.
  • 6 2
 @pakleni: MT7's - Yep the pivot and the contact adjuster wear and the lever flops all over the place and rattles unless you ride with a finger on them all the time. The contact fore/aft flop was so bad I had to take the adjuster out, wrap it in electrical tape then force it back in, it is just about ok now, not good considering how expensive they are. Power is however unrivalled this side of Trickstuff.
  • 8 1
 @pakleni:
7th season of downhill use on my MT7. So far only done a few quick bleeds, not even a full bleed. Lever is still going strong without play. They are of course not on the same level as some levers with ball bearings, even when new. If you pull hard enough in the wrong direction, they flex and give a little of course. Nothing you notice during riding though. Just my experience and others mileage may vary, but I'm certainly very happy with mine.
  • 4 1
 @GZMS: they were mono minis with 160 rotors, and they weren't nearly as strong as his codes, so hopes are a joke.
  • 15 20
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 1:13) (Below Threshold)
 @GZMS: the latest X2. Sorry Shimano gets way more power from cylinder of similar size. If X2 works like this what chance does X4 have against saint or CODE. Wait, I tried them. No chance. I am simply not a fanboi. I will tell you more. I got that Hope because of all the fanboism on Pinkbike. My first and last hope brake.
  • 24 8
 @WAKIdesigns: user error.
  • 16 13
 @WAKIdesigns: I agree with the power of hope brakes. They're pretty weak.
  • 50 21
 @WAKIdesigns: also, hope doesn't make a brake called the x4, but you tried them apparently. V4 has enough power for some of the world's best riders, but not enough for prolific internet trolls. Just another baseless opinion from Waki. Will be a sad day when he realizes that cynical contrarian is a shitty personality, and pinkbike commenter is a sad excuse for an identity.
  • 4 12
flag BillyBoy0519 (May 5, 2020 at 1:29) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: do you think its possible to combine code rsc levers with hope calipers? Would that make them have more bite(are they even compatible), because the CNC’ed Hope calipers look stunning
  • 14 0
 I used to be pretty much Shimano everything until recently. The feeling started to fade away after 1,5 years on XT M8000 brakes. Not only the bitting point issue was beyond annoying, they required frequent bleeds and the levers were made of glass - I was breaking one every 6 months on mild crashes. Then got a new complete bike 1 year ago with Sram Code Rs. Was skeptical at first, but I'm totally sold now. Consistent performance, zero need for maintenance, fugly but tough levers. I think Sram made a Shimano product by mistake
  • 1 0
 @pakleni: having them for a year now, little to no play
  • 7 12
flag Noeserd (May 5, 2020 at 1:42) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: i've used e4's and i crashed because lack of power
  • 13 12
 @Arierep: Also on Code RS. Super solid, fantastic modulation and easily perceivable lock up point. You know when you are starting to add some real power. Then good tolerance to air in the system. You can still take them out on a spin or two when you know it's time for a bleed. At that stage Shimano lever bite is all over the place.
  • 9 5
 @Noeserd: I've used avid and magura. I crashed because of the lack of modulation. See how dumb that sounds?

User error.
  • 13 3
 @Noeserd: "Hope" you stop
  • 5 4
 @thegoodflow: thats odd, i've used xtr 9k's, code rsc's, trp quadiem's etc. Most modulation came by far with rsc's and mt7 is second
  • 4 1
 @Noeserd: right, it was an example of a baseless statement by someone that was blaming their equipment for a crash
  • 10 1
 @Noeserd: basically, if you're crashing because of e4, then it's user error of some sort... either in use or in setup... hard to imagine what that would be because they're pretty easy to setup and use, but somehow you've found a way.
  • 6 0
 Wait for their DHF
  • 6 9
 @thegoodflow: well, i know my trails and where i need to stop. E4's couldnt stopped me where i needed to stop, what else am i going to blame other than brakes?
  • 6 13
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 2:01) (Below Threshold)
 @kiddlivid: That's rich hahaha Big Grin
  • 5 3
 @Noeserd: whatever makes you feel better
  • 3 0
 Maybe the one(my friend's) i used had some problems
  • 15 9
 @thegoodflow: I have had many friends, and many if them good mechanics that have had this issue with hopes through the years. 10 years ago yea, hope was the best, but everyone else has improved that much more. I'm sorry but your panicked posts saying people aren't setting them up right and insulting people just look desperate to be right against multiple people with experience if them under performing. Or maybe we're a just fatter than you and setting them up right means I need to eat less curly fries, who knows. If that's the case I'll stick with the curly fries and Sram.
  • 12 17
flag thegoodflow (May 5, 2020 at 2:11) (Below Threshold)
 @kiddlivid: yeah, totally panicking over here. Also totally shocked that multiple people on the internet might be wrong. For all those curly fry eating forum posters that say that hopes are too weak to be usable, there's just as many who wouldn't ride anything else. I don't care if you have a different preference, but if you say that hope brakes are sub-par because they're too weak, then you're really just talking out of your ass.
  • 9 20
flag gnralized (May 5, 2020 at 2:20) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow @wakidesign
Go on, you're funny.
And if you have children, please keep one for me.
For hunting, you know.
  • 14 18
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 2:20) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: you can already post "you are all idiots" and rage quit Salute
  • 3 2
 @Noeserd: Apparently you do not know where to brake if you can't actually stop/slow down enough. Always user error, regardless of whether it is shitty judgment or shitty brake service. Period... you finger-pointer.
  • 5 5
 @WAKIdesigns: yeah you'd like that wouldn't you
  • 15 1
 @Lagr1980: What Magura gets right with ergonomics, lever feel and power, they F-up with materials choice...their screws and hardware on the lever is compatible with Ikea furniture.
  • 26 4
 @thegoodflow: Adam Brayton has to do CrossFit just so he can pull on those hope levers hard enough to slow him down.
  • 3 4
 @svobodarider: then hopes are not enough powerful for Me, full stop
  • 7 14
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 2:38) (Below Threshold)
 @kiddlivid: ouch! The brutality of your burns is inspiring.
  • 11 7
 @kiddlivid: sorry to hear about your weak hands.

Joe Barnes just drags his brakes all the way to the bottom so that he never picks up enough speed for it to matter. One time he tried going fast but his brakes were too weak so he crashed like @noeserd.

Nico Vink never uses his brakes, they're just there for show.

Yep, too weak. The pinkbike commenters have spoken. Case closed.
  • 4 0
 @yeti85: oh yeah, well, get some shimano zee levers as backup, once you break them (snap the master body or destroy the screw) replace and off you go, shigura baby.
  • 1 1
 @pakleni: nope, they can snap in half at the body, the lever itself is usually stronger than the main cylinder housing (or whatever its called), depending on the version.. just get some shimano zee levers on Sale, and enjoy the best brakes ever.
  • 8 12
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 2:44) (Below Threshold)
 @Lagr1980: even better with Deore levers since they are the only not suffering from variable bite point. They wear out after some time but they cost nothing. I personally prefer feel of Deore levers over SLX,XT,XTR. There's no servo wave in them so they have better modulation at the end of the stroke IMHO.
  • 1 1
 @Lagr1980: I've heard they are more powerful with that setup
  • 6 8
 @Noeserd: rode MT7 with Saint levers. I'd say a bit too powerful for my likes. Tolerable unlike old Formulas but still a bit sketchy in low grip situations. But if you want boat anchors, then Shigura MT7 is your brake
  • 4 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm a heavy guy, would never say no to more power Big Grin
  • 6 12
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 3:01) (Below Threshold)
 @Noeserd: Theoretically your brake power is always limited by tire grip. But then some like modulation, some like hard bite and then even more power.
  • 11 2
 Rachel Atherton won the overall and World Champs in 2018 running Hope V4s, so yeah they must be terrible.
  • 6 0
 @pakleni: yes, I have MT7 for 2nd year now. Already replaced one lever as the retaining spring broke completely (the whole lever is needed and it is not cheap). Now the other lever has developed serious play and is rattling all over. Looking for the day it breaks suddenly in high speed section and when I grab the brake there will be no lever to pull on (that's how it happened on the first one).

Also the plastic on the lever body is complete bullshit for the price, especially the plastic bleed screw which screws into plastic. Yes, stripping that is user error, but it takes such a minimal torque to strip it, it just feels like bad engineering.

Also, the lever distance adjusters are crap, either they are too lose and screw out during riding or they are too tight and the plastic part which you turn is just slipping on the screw and the screw itself is not moving.

Overall, the breaks are great, lots of power, great modulation and consistency, but for the price the plastic feels and behaves super cheap and the lever should not get loose after a year of riding.
  • 19 1
 @gnralized: are you really threatening someone's kids on a forum about bike parts?
Wtf is wrong with you?
  • 8 0
 @GZMS: I second this... I run hopes and I can confirm pulling harder does the trick
  • 10 3
 @Noeserd: You what???
You couldn't stop?
I'm on my 3rd set of Hope brakes, and they all easily enough lock up under any conditions with one finger.
You either have the world's lowest grip strength, or you haven't bedded your brakes.
  • 5 1
 @WAKIdesigns: After bad sets of SRAM & Shimano went TRP just based off lever feel. Figured they cant be worse... So been running TRPs for a year. Solid system. Lighter pull than SRAM. No floating bite point like shimano. Still love shimano’s lever feel, but fack - when is lever feel something you noticed outside the parking lot. Bleeding is easiest Ive ever done with the TRP kit. Plus (at least in states) theyre less than almost anything. NOTE: G-Spec ARE different than Standard. 2 friends got normal quads and they were mushy compared to G-spec - different piston components maybe... not sure.
  • 1 4
 @Losvar: I'm heavy
  • 14 14
 @Losvar: I don’t knowhow detached from reality a Hope fanboi must be to not notice that even single caliper Shimano XT brake has more power than Hope 4pot “DH” brake. When riding Down long and steep techy stuff like Illenberga in Hafjell in wet I do appreciate power of Code or Saint. Offcourse that hopes have sufficient power, Sam Hill won most of his titles on Elixirs. But what does that change?
  • 11 6
 @WAKIdesigns: you admitted yourself that you've only tried the x2. I'm running the x2 in the rear on a couple bikes, including a bikepacking rig, and even loaded, with a 2.6 tire, on flat asphalt, it's super easy to lock up the rear brake on that bike. Plenty of power for that application. The e4 and v4 on my trail bikes, which you've admittedly never even tried, have more than enough power for steep extended descents. I bought a 2nd hand bike recently that came with 4-pot xt, and I rode them for a while. They worked great, aside from the wandering bite point. Ended up selling them. They feel grabbier, but they definitely don't have more power than a set of hope V4s.

How detached from reality do you have to be to just keep repeating the same shit over and over when you have no idea what you're talking about? There's a lot of good brakes out there. If you like codes, that's good for you.
  • 15 20
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 4:57) (Below Threshold)
 @thegoodflow: I would appreciate you to stop using my name in texts you write. I have nothing more to say to you, I have zero obligation to explaining myself to you and par your interpersonal attacks. Stop writing to me.

Have a good day
Wacek
  • 28 13
 @WAKIdesigns: I would like you to stop spraying your retarded opinions all over pinkbike, but we don't always get what we want, eh?
  • 3 7
flag gnralized (May 5, 2020 at 5:02) (Below Threshold)
 @Jonnysnow:

It's just a joke, mate. "if you have (make) children (together), keep me one for hunting" i.e. as a hunting dog.
That's what we said to people arguing with too much intensity/lame arguments in my place.

Mate, would YOU threaten a child on a forum about bike parts ?
So why do you think someone else would ?
  • 16 2
 @thegoodflow:

All the fast boys, and I mean all of them, round here ride Hopes - what does that tell you?

There are possibly more powerful brakes, but for reliability, serviceability, tunability, rideability and support then there is no equal.
  • 16 4
 @thegoodflow:

The annoying thing about Waki is he makes some good points, is clearly a very intelligent guy and like the rest of us loves bikes. However it seems some posts are purely inflammatory and incredibly self righteous - I wonder what he's like in real life? I try not to respond now cos he'll always have a better reply than me which he will to this soon. But yeah Hopes are on fast rider bikes everywhere, the types that ride steep sketchy off-piste stuff and rarely comment on forums (if ever!)
  • 3 1
 @WAKIdesigns: No man is an island.
  • 18 22
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 5:47) (Below Threshold)
 @jemscott: I bought a Hope brake. I have a Hope brake. I tried several other Hope brakes. I found them weak coompared to brakes I owned Deore, XT, SLX, Saint and Codes. The V4 are slightly stronger than Guides. And as we can see all over this comment section I am not the only one who finds Hopes weak. Is there anything inflammatory to it? I guess only to a Hope fanboi, particularly one that doesn't like me? Who can't deal with the fact that someone may not like things he likes? I mean come on mate... this is not even childish anymore. I am not arguing this. I am stating a fact, I even did 15 seconds google confirming exactly what I am saying: enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy

"Get a stronger finger" - this is not even childish. This is R.E.T.A.R.D.E.D.
  • 8 17
flag thegoodflow (May 5, 2020 at 6:07) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: wow wakoff, great source. Thanks for posting that. The results of that lab test are beyond worthless. Their numbers are all over the place. Apparently, hope e4 is more powerful than v4 (they're both so weak anyway, right? But they got it backwards). And, better yet, Deore stops faster than Zee or your beloved Code R. Way to go Waki. Brilliant, objective testing. Finally we have conclusive evidence. Idiot.
  • 6 11
flag WAKIdesigns (May 5, 2020 at 6:18) (Below Threshold)
  • 1 1
 @WRCDH: those Shimano xt brakes were the best brakes i ever had. Had 2 sets
  • 20 2
 @thegoodflow: Maybe its time for a walk?
  • 4 1
 @zyoungson: Yeah, point taken. Cheers!
  • 5 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Hey I never mentioned your finger - re read the post.
  • 8 2
 @WAKIdesigns:
In fact a couple of things

a) I do not dislike you at all, well until the point you called me retarded for a comment I did not say.

b) I find that massively offensive, how do you know I don't have a son or daughter who is R.E.T.A.R.D.E.D?

I'm fuming to be honest but what the point replying.
  • 5 1
 @thegoodflow:

To quote: For those who love smooth modulation, then the TRP Quadiem, Hope and SRAM Guide offer the most linear deceleration.

The hopes both got a 4 star overall and a 5 star for modulation; also I repeat serviceability, tuneability and backup.

Oh and I was lucky enough to be at Fort Bill in 2005 when Peaty won on his 224 with hopes, they seemed to be able to slow down at the time the fastest WC racer who must have been what > 180lbs. But still not good for some hey...

www.pinkbike.com/news/throwback-thursday--peatys-fort-william-world-cup-win.html
  • 2 1
 @loafersmate: Magura warrantied the levers and replaced them with the 4mm adjuster style lever. As you said the contact adjuster with the tool free adjust was THE WORST. Brakes are awesome though when the lever doesn't rattle.
  • 2 0
 @WRCDH: Still got the original 4-pot XTs on my wife's bike.
  • 2 0
 @loafersmate: Try HC3 levers.
  • 1 0
 @philmtb99: interestingly enough I've been using the budget MT520 four piston brakes for the past few months (with servowave) and they've been completely consistent and have plenty power. I'm sure they're not quite as powerful as Saints, but I've read they're inline with the XT four pistons. They're also way cheaper.

Maybe they're the way to go if you don't want Saints, but also want to be able to use mineral oil.
  • 5 4
 @thegoodflow: actually hope did make an M4 www.hopetech.com/product-documents/brakes
Also, having owned two sets of hope brakes, I can’t believe I’m saying it, but I have to agree with Waki. They are very overrated brakes. They look frickin amazing which is what made me hold on to them for so long, but in the end they had to go. It’s not so much that they lacked power it’s that they heat up instantly on any sort of downhill and turn into blocks of wood. They would go from the most amazing feeling brakes with unreal modulation to almost unusable within fifteen minutes in the mountains. I was riding a trail in Nelson B.C. called the paper bag which is a technical downhill with a lot braking and like I said fifteen minutes in and the levers had completely pumped up and the brakes were on fire. Those were my moto 6 brakes too which have a huge master cylinder reservoir and massive six pot calipers. All that brake and they were literally sh*t, even had the braided lines. I rode that trail again with a set of older shimano deore’s and never had a single issue. I also had a set of x2’s and they did exactly the same thing. Maybe the new ones are better, but I doubt it and I definitely wouldn’t bother wasting my money to try another set.
  • 4 4
 @jemscott: I wasn’t talking about you. Sorry for making it sound like directed at you.
  • 4 1
 @thegoodflow: think he meant everyone should tag him in everything all the time.
  • 6 6
 @Grosey: please do! Then I'll stop coming to PB! Win win for me. The Hope fanboi club can put end to Waki! Big Grin
@overflow: how would it feel for you if you yourself threw me out of here? You'll be famous! You, know, an a*shole always deserves the last word! Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
  • 5 2
 @laerz: yes, I know about m4. They've also made c4, e4, and v4. They never made an x4, which is what Waki was babbling about. I've never tried the m6, but despite looking badass, they're reported to have less power than the v4, e4, and v2. I can't explain why you overheated the m6. Is it possible that you were dragging them or that your rotors were too small? I've owned old minis, mono minis, x2, e4, and v4. The minis are super weak, but they're xc brakes, and ~17 years later they still get the job done on a SS beater bike. They're built to last, and to be rebuilt. Any of the brakes with Tech-evo or tech-3 levers are excellent, if you choose the right caliper for your application. They don't have the same initial grab as some of the others, but that's not to be confused with power, and it's what makes the power more usable. They aren't the absolute strongest brakes out there, but at a certain point, if you have enough power to lock up the wheels with one finger, anything beyond that is for show or internet cool points.
  • 9 4
 @WAKIdesigns: Waki I will vow to never post here ever again if you'll do the same. It can be like a pact. It would be a sacrifice I'd be willing to make if it meant I would never have to read your bullshit again. But we both know that you would never agree to that, because you've built part of your identity around being a pinkbike troll.
  • 2 1
 @Davec85: to be fair, pro's have a very different riding level and style that puts different requirements on the equipment. Suspension that would feel like concrete for normal riders for example is totally fine and even required.
There was a time when a number of pro's rode Avid XX World Cup brakes. We can hopefully agree those are whimpy crappy excuses for a brake. It didn't stop those riders from winning races. Not to say that Hope brakes are crappy (because they are not), but just to prevent people from putting too much value on the components that pro's use (unless your riding is at the same level of course).
  • 2 3
 @thegoodflow: see enduro-mtb.com/en/best-mtb-disc-brake-can-buy for actual measurements. Hope V4 is comparable to XT. Saint is more powerful, as are the Maguta 4-pots. Zee's were comparable, but tested with different pads than the Saints (because they are 99% identical otherwise).
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: İf ım not wrong saint calipers are forged and zees are cast
  • 3 2
 @Mac1987: dude, stop referencing that failed test. Something was f*cked with their methods. Did you actually look at the data? One of the obvious ones that stands out is that they report that Deore decelerates faster than Zee or code r. If we're just posting reviews that back our opinions, there's plenty of that to go around:

m.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: the brakes were set up properly, and were definitely not dragging, trust me I tried everything to like those brakes. I bled them a bunch of times, I tried different pads and yes I bedded them in correctly, but they were always the same. They were just fine if you didn’t do any steep sustained downhills, but that’s what they were meant for, so like I said they had to go, and my x2’s were the same.
  • 2 2
 @laerz: ok, well obviously x2 isn't meant for that riding, and I don't really care above the m6... that was over 10 years ago, and I don't think your opinion of them is uncommon among those that have used them. Their new brakes can handle anything you can throw at them.
  • 3 0
 After years on Shimano I still find myself pumping the lever before every descent to make sure the bite point is ready, and I cant get rid of the nagging feeling that I need to burp the lever. Current bike has SRAM and its weird having brakes that are the same on every ride.
  • 1 0
 @Grosey: really??? I didn't think anything was different between g spec and non g spec other than paint.
  • 3 0
 @Davec85: no one is saying they're terrible, just they lack power compared to other brands which is true. I've had e4 and v4,now using code rsc. the code is much more powerful than the v4. i loved the v4 in everyday but the power just doesn't suit my braking style, which is hard and late for short period of time. i had to try and change the way i would brake by braking much earlier than was normal. i grew tired of this so i sold them and bought the code which after 2 years has been an outstanding brake.
  • 2 0
 @mikelee:
"No one is saying that they're terrible."

actually, a lot of people here are saying that they're terrible.
  • 4 0
 @thegoodflow: the test was also done at hopes own facility which is kind of embarrassing for hope. to be fair to hope when i emailed them about the lack of power in the v4 i had ,they were honest and said to get a saint or a code for better outright power. hopes are brilliant brakes that lack power for most people. If they sorted out the power they'd be the best in the market imo.
  • 1 0
 @pakleni: , mt trail for 18 months, and the levers are fine. Had Shimano previously, and I love how consistent these Magura are, no scary moments on a vertical trail with the lever next to the grip!
  • 3 0
 @lance2012: I demo'd the hope hb130 bike that had top of the range hope brakes on it, I thought the brakes were quite underpowered compared to the shimano saints I use, although if you pulled the lever hard they were ok, its just that you don't have to pull a saint lever hard at all to get a lot of instant stopping power, even in the French alps
  • 2 1
 @mikelee: wow, was it really done at hopes facility? Huh, yeah I'm sure that would be embarrassing. The thing is, nobody has ever claimed that they're the most powerful brakes out there. I don't need them to be. But people talk like they're so weak that they're unusable, or not worth considering. And there is definitely something wrong with the data that they produced in that test. E4 outperforming v4? Deore outperforming zee and code r? If you look at all the numbers, it just doesn't add up.
  • 4 0
 @mark3: to each their own. I don't want all the power to come on instantly when you're riding on low traction surfaces.
  • 2 0
 @mark3: also, hopes standard hb130 build comes with e4 not v4, so not quite a fair comparison to saints.
  • 3 1
 @WAKIdesigns: hopeless?
  • 4 0
 @thegoodflow: , I ride damp trails, roots etc. or very dry/ dusty trails. I would love to try some Hope brakes and check the famous modulation myself! But damm it’s pricey
  • 2 3
 @thegoodflow: weak sauce. Its just arguing over bike parts. Both you should post cause diversity of opinion is good for everyone, especially the butthurt.

I come to the comments for @wakidesigns trolling - and this is how it should be vetting through dialogue.
  • 3 4
 @Grosey: you're weak sauce
  • 2 2
 @Pyres: yeah, pricey, but they're super durable, and seals/small parts are easy to get for years to come.
  • 4 3
 @Grosey: sorry, that response was unnecessary. I guess my problem with him is that most of the time he doesn't actually try to add to the discussion. He takes these really extreme polarizing stances on everything, often based on little actual experience. I'd love to ride with him one day though, just to watch him flounder his way down a steep trail and blame his brakes.
  • 2 0
 @WRCDH: you know some stuff...shhhh... we wont be able to find used pairs easily if you tell everyone....

I have always touted all of the shimano brakes from the perpendicular lever reservoir era as the best....
  • 3 1
 @thegoodflow: the dude is a beast. You should go watch his cornering video.
  • 2 0
 @thegoodflow:. Strong point. Replacing a shimano or Magura lever cause it’s worned out is at least 40 or 50€!!
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: i’ve had really good results just creating a little pressure at the end of the bleed service in older hope m4 and mono 2-pot brakes. i love hope brakes but the pistons do get sticky from time to time and need to be pulled.
  • 3 2
 @reverend27: Lol, thanks I needed the laugh! Such a beast!
  • 1 0
 @Loki87: ive had failure of every cartridge bearing lever ive ever had. ive had no pivot failure from levers without cartridge bearings.

cartridge bearings are heavier, more expensive, many more moving parts to fail.
  • 2 2
 @thegoodflow: they’re well made,reliable and very consistent but there’s no getting away from their serious lack of power compared to their rivals. Every review on either the e4 or v4 verifies this. If you like them and find they have plenty of power then happy days. But most don’t as you’re now finding out. To each their own. Oh and the have a really annoying high pitch squeal when using metal pads too. Even in the dry.
  • 3 4
 @mikelee: you guys are way exaggerating the "serious lack of power". It's hyperbole, and it's just not true. Every review confirms it? That's also an exaggeration. The squaling is likely a setup issue, the 4 piston hopes are admittedly a little sensitive to caliper alignment.

"Superb power delivery with lovely modulation"
m.pinkbike.com/news/review-hope-race-evo-e4-disc-brakes.html
Mind you that's the race e4, so 2 steps down from the tech v4.

m.vitalmtb.com/features/Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152

Sorry, but despite how strongly some people here feel about the weak hope brakes, I'll take it with a grain of salt. Here's pinkbikes most outspoken hope brake detractor, demonstrating why only the most powerful brakes are up to the task, because apparently he uses his brakes a lot:

www.pinkbike.com/video/412632

This is also the guy that needs DH tires on his trailbike. Cuz he f*cking shreds.
  • 2 3
 @reverend27: he looks like he's trying to transport a raw egg between his buttcheeks without breaking it. So tense...
  • 2 1
 @mikelee: holdup... is this the brake that was squealing?

www.pinkbike.com/photo/17009826

I can't imagine why! I'll reiterate, that maybe, just maybe, it was a setup issue. You guys are priceless. Buncha experts.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: I have found saints to be very controllable in all conditions, I honestly hardly ever skid the rear wheel, I have been using saint for 12 years though, I even have them on 4 bikes, so I have most probably just got a good feel for them, I can also bulk buy pads which keeps it simple and cheaper.

without sounding daft whats the biggest difference between e4 and v4 calipers, is it piston size
  • 2 1
 @mark3: Right on, yeah saints also seem like great brakes. I'm kinda in the same boat, in that i've just committed to a setup that works for me, and it makes it easy to stock spares, and swap out different calipers for different setups. I couldn't care less if they're the best, but they work really f*cking good, and they're super well made and durable, so they work for well me.

V4 has more mass in the caliper, 2x18mm pistons + 2x16mm (e4 is 4x16), and more rotor clearance to accommodate the thicker optional vented rotor.
  • 3 2
 @thegoodflow: I referenced that test because it is the best try at an objective measurement I've found. The one you referenced didn't do any actual measurements and therefore depends on feeling. A 2-pot Shimano XT feels more powerful than a Code RSC, until you do extended descents. And regarding the Deore brake: it measured 69.9 Nm versus 75.2 for the Zee. All Magura and Shimano 4-pots beat it. Sounds reasonable to me. It doesn't say anything about heat tolerance though. A Code R might not be more powerful on first application of the brake, but will be more powerful after an hour-long descent.
  • 5 2
 Ya'll still talking about brake preferences? Or just frustrated and feel the need to yell?
  • 2 0
 @thegoodflow: cheers mate, I do like hope stuff and I must admit you can get spares easily, unlike shimano caliper seals which I cant find anywhere
  • 1 1
 @yeti85: ergonomics is the only thing lacking on maguras
  • 2 1
 @Mac1987: yes, they tried to be objective, but they failed somehow. Yes, the review I referenced tested the brakes on actual extended descents, not just relying on feel in the parking lot.
Look at the desceleration times. Deore beats zee and code r. There's a bunch of other anomolies in that data. Yoi really think it's some sort of flawless test? Why is it so important to you people to try and prove that hope brakes are weak?
  • 8 3
 There is a surprising lack of humor in this anti-Waki thread. If feuds can't incorporate at least a little humor to entertain us then hash out your differences somewhere else before we fall into a coma from boredom. That's one reason I often enjoy Waki's posts...he keeps PB laughing and fun even if I don't agree with everything he says.
  • 3 2
 @WAKIdesigns: naaaah sram doesn't suffer from inconsistency because it's bad from the get go. It's just a product that gave up on being a good brake

Also hope lightweight X series brakes were always shit. But V2's and V4's I've ridden were the most consistent brakes not named Gustav I've tried
  • 3 2
 @thegoodflow: so now you’re proving you know nothing about the brakes you love so much! V4 has 2x 16mm piston and 2x14mm piston which is the same as a guide! The e4 has 2x14mm piston which is why they have serious power issues. I know this because I’ve owned both and serviced both. Please feel free to check this yourself. As for squeaking brakes check any Adam brayton Clip and enjoy the squeal. Him and his pro mechanic obviously can’t set up their brakes pmsl could you help them out.
  • 2 0
 @pakleni: the Carbotech lever feels flexible and is fragile. It can be come loose and won’t snapped back towards the bar. Pain in the $&@ to fix, don’t get me wrong the MT7 still perform great. However with the HC3 levers I switched them for are Gold,Now the feel of the MT7 is magnificent. I read some where that the HC3 lever works on the MT5 and as a very close feel to the MT7 at a fraction of the price. can save some money, buy the MT5 and switch the levers, IMHO for the cost of the MT7 it should come with the HC3 levers.period.
  • 1 0
 @WRCDH: Couldn't agree more. Their moar power moar power marketing is leaving great openings for other brake makers.
  • 1 0
 @fedfox: does the HC3 fix the issue with levers not snapping back? I was looking at these previously but they are bit pricey but if they fix this issue its probably worth it.
  • 2 0
 @ Plancktonne: I would buy 2 saint lever for 1 hc3 blade price and make shigura
  • 1 0
 @Plancktonne:
I had them for a month and have ridden some really rocky terrain and are still in place. They are build of aluminum and truly feel robust. I have not read or heard the HC3 coming loose or breaking. I got them here which is the cheapest, they have 20% coupons sometimes:

www.jensonusa.com/Magura-HC3-Brake-Lever
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I concur with alll of the above. And the hope lack of power is comical, shimano bite point is insane. Surely some one can make a decent brake.
  • 2 2
 @thegoodflow: it's not. I even said that they aren't bad brakes. I just pointed to the only review with actual measurements that I could find, that shows they aren't weak, but also not as powerful as Magura or Shimano 4-pots, just like a lot of people seem to experience. They do seem to be powerful enough, reliable, beautifully made and well supported. Let me give you a question in return: why is it so important to you to prove Hope brakes aren't slightly less powerful than some other brakes? Is outright power the only thing that matters and is your pride hurt by not having the most powerful brake of all brakes?
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: been on the new 4 pot xtr for months now and i can honestly say, it is a non issue...
  • 3 2
 People seem to get very confused when talking about how "powerful" a brake is. Power is related to a few factors:
Leverage, ie lever throw vs piston movement
System stiffness
Pad compound

Thats pretty much it. Heat shedding comes into it but is a slightly separate issue.

Leverage is pretty similar between the brands. Piston sizes are all near as dammit identical, as are lever lengths and pivot points. Pad compound can be changed depending on what pads you buy. Stiffness is pretty similar too. There are slight variations, but barely anything. I own Hope v4s, Shimano Saints and Sram codes. They all work fine. The Saints are a little more grabby due to servo wave action. But once you get used to them they are perfectly easy to modulate and seriously powerful. The codes are fine, I haven't owned them long enough to comment on reliability, but it is a known weak point for sram. To be expected when they pump out millions of the things.
Seriously, if you buy a 4 pot brake from any of the well known manufacturers and it feels noticably underpowered, then you set it up wrong. It's a simple as that.

My Hope v4s are on my downhill bike. My downhill bike which I will happily throw down the steepest gradients out there. Why the v4s? The power is on a par with the saints and codes. They don't overheat. They rarely ever need bleeding. And in the four years I've owned them they've never given me a single reason to doubt they will perform exactly how I want them to exactly when I need them to. They are the best brakes I own.
  • 3 4
 @thegoodflow: Don't take any shit from that peckerwood!

Ride on brother.
  • 3 2
 @mikelee: sorry mikelee, I did double-check, and despite the misinformation that's out there on the web, that you're continuing to parrot, hopes own website and tech docs confirm that e4 is 4x16, and v4 is 2x16 and 2x18. Try to at least be right next time before you act like a condescending tool.

I'm sure Adams got a good mechanic. You apparently don't though.
  • 2 3
 @Mac1987: bro, I've already said multiple times in this thread that they're not the most powerful brakes out there, nor do they need to be or claim to be. All I'm saying is that they're not horribly underpowered or "seriously lacking" like people are claiming.
  • 1 0
 Fuck
  • 2 2
 @thegoodflow: Haha, no worries. Im no good either; Hardly won anything, gaps over 50’ tend to make me nervous the first time, and cant even push 2500 watts anymore. Getting old...
  • 4 3
 @Grosey: ok, not sure why you're directing that at me, but good to know. Sounds like when you were at your peak, your skills were on par with wakis made-up bullshit. I'd advise you to avoid hope brakes... they're not powerful enough decelerate your dad bod on the the steep descents of Houston TX. Better get trickstuff just to be safe.
  • 7 0
 LOUD NOISES!
  • 4 3
 @thegoodflow: ah you mean the wrong information that’s on hopes own web site! Ffs mate give up. You’re sounding proper retarded now. V4 do not have 18mm pistons at all. I’ve replace seals in both of hopes e4 and v4 so I know exactly what size the pistons are. Please feel free to email hope and have them verify this. As I’ve said from the beginning the brakes work just fine and are brilliant brakes in every way but power FOR ME. That’s my opinion. As for the picture of the brake you took from my account(which is a little creepy by the way) as you can see I extended my brake calliper so I could run a 220mm rotor with those gutless v4’s. To bring them up to half decent power. It worked very well too. However in the end they STILL lacked power compared to the codes so I sold them on. I know Adam brayton has been using 225 rotors for the last 3 seasons on his v4 which confirms they are beautiful,consistent but gutless brakes. Shame because I loved the look,feel etc. But remember if they slow YOU down then that’s great. But not for me,gutless I tell you....gutless!
  • 2 5
 @mikelee: This is getting silly. Yes, hopes own website. Did you even double check before you replied to repeat yourself, or did you just assume that you couldn't possibly be wrong? There are sources, including a pinkbike article and mbr, that have listed the wrong sizes that you're repeating, but you're incorrect.

On the tech3 E4 page:
"E4 caliper uses 4x16mm phenolic pistons"

The v4 product page doesn't list the piston sizes for some reason, but here's a link to a document that pretty clearly states that it's 2x16 and 2x18:

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.hopetech.com/_repository/1/documents/HOPE-calipers-pistons-piston-seals-chart.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_sovSw57pAhWHFzQIHeolDqIQFjANegQIARAI&usg=AOvVaw1pxlXbU8jpZx3swBrXs3pj

Your caliper adapter spacers was definitely an amateur-hour bodge. I was just pointing that out because maybe you aren't the most credible source on whether the brakes have a problem with squealing. I've always used proper adapters, not a stack of washers and spacers, and i've never had a problem with them squealing when dry.

There's a lot of good brakes out there these days. Hopes aren't the most powerful, but they're more than adequate, and they have other advantages. We all have our preferences of course, and for good reasons, buy when you speak in hyperbole and try to puff your chest out and say that any of the top modern brakes from shimano, sram, magura, hope, trp or Hayes are seriously holding you back and affecting your ride, you just sound like someone that makes excuses and probably isn't that skilled. Any of the top brakes are powerful enough for the fastest riders in the world, and they're powerful enough for you. But please, pick a side and be a dick about it. V4 with 225 rotors are "gutless" and I'm "proper retarded"? Ok, I'll take your word for it.
  • 3 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I've been running Hope E4 (X2 on the rear of one) brakes on 3 bikes so far, I've used them for everything from bike parks (Hafjell, Åre and Levi), to riding really steep shit here in the Norwegian fjords to regular trail riding, and I have never experienced anything sketchy due to a lack of power in my brakes.
The fastest guys I've ridden with are also on Hope brakes, so they clearly work.
I actually run a Hope Race Evo X2 on a 203 disc at the rear end of my enduro bike, and it's by far powerful enough for anything I've ever ridden.
The Race Evo pump is a bit more aggressive than the Tech 3 though.

Hope Tech 3 V4 won the heavy duty brake test over on VitalMTB too, and they gave them 9/10 for power, so you must clearly be doing something wrong, or MAYBE, just maybe, people have different preferences.

My Hope brakes have better modulation than any other brake I've tried, the bite point doesn't wander at all, and they don't fade due to heat like a lot of other brakes I've tried, and they lock up my wheels with one finger if I need them to.
  • 4 1
 @WAKIdesigns: In the brake review you posted, they had 2 points against the Hope E4 brakes, price and soft bite point due to the standard organic pads.
I use uberbike race matrix pads, and there's no soft bite point on mine, if I want them to lock up immediately, they do just that, but I have full control over the modulation.
The benchmarking in that review also measured higher braking torque on the Hope brakes compared to your "strong" Code RSC brakes, and this was with the, in my opinion, sub-par Hope organic pads.
  • 3 2
 @thegoodflow: noted. Ordered. Already have a time slot reserved at the custom anodizer/cafe and pre-ordered craft latte’s w/ an IPA chaser. You know the trickstuff will be next level power after oil slick ano is applied.

Appreciate the recognition of HTown. We have easily 50 foot of elevation.
  • 3 0
 @Grosey: sik, bruh
  • 3 2
 @thegoodflow: So, what do we do now chief?
  • 1 0
 @zyoungson: except if his name is No Man, that is.
  • 2 1
 @WAKIdesigns: now maybe, you both chill the f*ck out?
  • 1 0
 @Noeserd: that's what I did, loic bruni edition magura levers are 70+ euro each, went for 2 shimano xt mc instead but honesty didn't like the way it worked so back to magura mc again
  • 6 1
 @thegoodflow: to make things bit more interesting www.mbr.co.uk/reviews/disc-brakes-products/hope-tech-3-v4-disc
So 14mm and 16mm pistons? Who is right here? Who isn´t? One thing is for sure, hopes are not known for their power.
  • 5 1
 @Mondbiker: sssstttt... He'll get in his period again if you say sightly non-positive things about Hope brakes again.

Disclaimer: I do like Hope brakes and find this fanboyism for or against them childish (grabs a bag of popcorn and a fresh beer)
  • 3 0
 @Mondbiker: wha5 if someone threw some Trickstuff power pads in those hopes.
20% more power and still have terrific modulation.
  • 1 0
 @reverend27: pads make a great difference. Just look at the difference in the Enduro MTB test between the Zee and Saint brakes.
  • 1 2
 Hope brakes are brakes and work. End of thread.
  • 1 0
 @Mondbiker: yeah, you got me, mbr is right, and hope tech docs are wrong.

Also, why does it even matter?
  • 2 0
 @Mac1987: I've already had my period twice during this thread.
  • 5 1
 Online piston measuring contests are a real crowd pleaser.
  • 2 2
 Thank you all for such vibrant and colorful responses, hahaha! A few insights about Hope brakes and others...

Hope E4’s with resin pads and 180 rotors on 27.5 wheels setup by a top-pro-mechanic are hopelessly weak in my experience (reminding me of original 1998 Hayes Mag brakes on 6” rotors) in terms of bite and outright power — not even locking the front or rear wheel when sitting on the bike and pedalling in low gear or coasting at parking lot speed. E4’s with 203 rotors and metallic pads on 26, 27.5, and 29 wheels are better, but are lower performance than I expect from 203’s and metallic pads in general over the last 20 years, especially the brakes available in the last 5 years.

Next, some Shimano 4-piston metallic pads fits in Hope brakes (like the M03 pads) and they provide MUCH more desirable friction characteristics for fast or average-to-heavy riders than Hope resin pads, and are in my opinion better than Hope’s metallic pads. Also, newer and older Hope M4’s seem to have more power and modulation than E4’s, even M4’s with the “Race” levers, but even more so with the Tech levers. V4’s are the strongest Hope brakes I’ve tried (well, aside from Mono6 Ti brakes that were a very different type of modulation and power delivery), but those new V4’s were 203 with metallic pads (Shimano M03’s I think) and Goodridge braided lines.

I’ve tried several Hope 2-piston brakes over the last decade and they’ve all exhibited unacceptably poor power — nowhere close to the type of power I get from newer Shimano 2-piston brakes or even older 2-piston brakes like Saint M800’s. Additionally, I’ve been disappointed with Hope’s “lever feel consistency” on all but their newest 2017+ brakes...I don’t know if there’s some issue with the master cylinder design and how quickly it compensates for fluid expansion between lever pulls or some issue like that.

Also, Hope brakes over the years have had more lever travel than other comparable brakes, and slightly less power. They tried to compensate for that on the E4’s by utilizing less slave cylinder (caliper piston) travel, resulting in less lever travel before pad contact — but that whole approach and their execution adversely affected power (less hydraulic “leverage”).

V4’s are the only Hopes I would run on a new bike — trail bike or DH bike...simply varying rotor size and maybe Shimano vs Hope metallic pads to adjust braking power. That said, I’m running year 2004 Hope M4’s with Shimano M03 metallic pads and braided Hope lines on Hope aluminum-carrier M4 200mm rotors on an era-correct Intense Uzzi SL...and they’re pretty darn great for the era, and they’re better than any new E4’s I’ve tried in terms of power, bite, and modulation.

So it seems Hope has had some hits and misses over the years. I say that they reintroduce a 6-piston brake for 200mm to 250mm rotors for DH bikes, discontinue the E4 and M4, and just sell the V4 with a range of different rotors sizes from 160mm to 250mm and a range of metallic pad compounds for different bike types and rider weights.
  • 2 1
 @thegoodflow: We could tell. I figured 3 times. Do you need a cranberry juice?
  • 3 0
 @kiddlivid: thanks, yeah a cranberry juice would be lovely. So nice of you to offer
  • 1 1
 Btw, my basic argument was that there's lots of good brakes on the market, and that hope brakes aren't actually that weak. Amazing how butthurt some of y'all managed to get about it.
  • 2 1
 @thegoodflow: sorry mate you got butthurt because I called Hope brakes weak Instead of weakER than Code and Saint. Then you flipped out I called V4 - X4. FACT. Once again you are painting negative picture by filling the blanks with your own treats. It’s been a pleasure Big Grin
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: yep, totally flipped out. I thought you were done talking to me Waki? Nice of you to come crawling back. f*ck off already
  • 2 1
 @thegoodflow: if you read my comments they are rather calm. Like this one Big Grin I even kindly asked you to not adress me in such aggressive tone and be so personal Big Grin Is there anything more I can do for you? Big Grin
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: no Waki, that will be all. You may go now.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I had Deore on the mega and they had the wandering bite point, plus this other fault in which the pin that the lever pushes into the socket on the end of the master cylinder would pop out and misalign... When you pulled the lever it wouldn't move, you'd pull harder, hear a pop as it went home and then you'd have the ability to brake. I won't touch Shimano again now. Not until it's fixed.
Right now I have Guide REs. Possibly the best bang for buck brake on the market.
  • 1 0
 I have been "this close" to buying Hope brakes a couple of times. They look awesome. They are light. They are locally made. They can be customised. There will be spares backup forever.

It's just that on the couple of times I have tested them, both carpark tests admittedly, they were totally underwhelming on the bite and power fronts.

It's a shame. I would love to run Hope brakes. Maybe those ones I tried were on oily discs. Maybe there's more to it than you can determine in the carpark test. I don't know.

The Guide REs I have now that came stock on my bottom of the range Capra (£1999 complete) are spot on. Power, bite, modulation, consistency. The lever looks a bit shit. Paint is coming off. They look like they will be a bit of a shag to bleed and I'll have to buy some DOT fluid but that notwithstanding, they are the best brakes I've ever used and would buy them again in a second.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: ok bummer then. First case that I heard of. From my personal experience with two sets around 2014-2016 I had no problem, what mechanics told me it's not the problem with them either, they get fkd in some other way.

Guide? I mean... it goes against Pinkbike science! I just set up Guides RS on my daughters bike and can't fault them too much (changed the faulty master cylinders but kept the calipers), possibly best modulation in business, I just lack a bit of power for longer descents. Works wonders on wet slabs on my home trails though. But what can I do being CODE fanboi Smile
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: focus on the brake torque measured. The braking distances aren't dependable, because they depend on rider technique, focus, tire grip, etc. The only part that I find interesting is the bench tests conducted in the Hope facility. They are the only truly dependable, repeatable tests. And even there, sample variation of brakes and pads and also the type of pads themselves can vary significantly.
However, it's as close to an objective answer as one can get. Downvotes me all you want, but the alternative is trusting wildly varying personal experiences. Seeing the ones in this thread, you can see that doesn't provide an answer.
  • 2 0
 @Mac1987: oh, I thought the deceleration tests were done on the machine as well, my bad. Yeah, if they were done by test riders on a bike then it makes sense that they'd vary a lot. The brake torque values do look more in line with what I'd expect overall, but in the case of the e4 vs v4, they're almost the same, with the e4 being slightly stronger... just doesn't make any sense to me and kinda calls all their numbers into question for me, but whatever. I guess you could call me a fanboy, but sometimes I just stick with what works for me, and they've always worked well for me and everyone I know with them. It's just annoying when people use hyperbole and take these really extreme stances on stuff because it's just not helpful for anyone. Waki does it a lot with the hope brakes, geometron/pole, etc. He deflects everytime if you ask if he's ridden one, but he's so convinced of how awful they are. I've never ridden one of the extremely long bikes, and I kinda doubt they're for me, but I'll reserve my judgement.

I do think that perhaps their pad compounds have room for improvement. Someone earlier mentioned using shimano pads in a hope caliper which is interesting. I definitely want to try a trickstuff power pad... kinda set my self up for more period jokes with that one, eh?
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: Oh man, I tried a Geometron — I can manual just about anything for days and couldn’t get the front wheel off the ground...very very different riding style is required for that bike...pretty much plow stuff and keep the bike relatively level to the ground. A few moments after the Geometron, I hopped on a Bronson for the first time and did a full 360-manual on my second try...amazing how it settles onto the rear wheel with ease due to a number of factors. I definitely prefer the one-wheel ability of lighter and slightly shorter bikes (as I’m not racing enduro or DH on bike-parky ultra-fast tracks at the world level).
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: And yes, try my pad swap trick — but only after a proper bleeding =P
  • 1 0
 @WRCDH: yeah, I'm fully on board with the short stays. My current trail bike is 430, and that works really well for my riding style. But, the long bikes clearly have their fans, and I'm sure they have their advantages for different riding styles, racers, etc. Some people just like to pick things to hate, as if it makes them edgy or creates a sense of identity. At least try one first. It's just bikes... some people still ride them for fun.

Do you know which shimano pads are interchangeable with which hope calipers?
  • 2 0
 @thegoodflow: Yup! Heck, I have as much fun an a 42” wheelbase 94 Kona Hot as I do on a 51” wheelbase new enduro bike =). Shimano M03 (metallic) pads work in M4’s in my experience (I think all gens?). I believe V4’s also. Not sure about E4’s. But if you look at Hope’s pad compatibility between their models, that might give you a good idea. I’d ask my friend who has run Shimano M03 pads on many Hope 4-piston brake setups, but he hasn’t replied to me about anything in over a week — his bike shop is totally jugged up now that our trails are open.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: yes, people exaggerate (a lot) and like I said, Hope brakes are definitely strong enough but not the best when you like maximum power with minimal lever pressure.
Regarding E4 vs. V4, sample variation still plays a role. My Shimano 785 XT brakes have more bite with the exact same piston sizes, pad type and disc type and circumference than my M8000 XT brakes. The measurements can therefore not be considered 100% transferable to each and every sample of the same brake type. Maybe the E4 pads were somehow more aggressive than the V4 pads? Maybe the bedding in, although standardized in the test, went slightly better with the E4? The overall picture does seem to reflect people's experiences though. Shimano and Magura 4-pots have more outright power than Hope models. The measured power is still more than enough for most though.

But enough with the sensible chat now, back to dirt throwing and unnecessary insults! Wink
  • 2 0
 @Mac1987: I’ve noticed that master cylinder engineering & tweaks have A LOT to do with brake performance characteristics (other variables held consistent) — the master cylinder piston size, the lever length, the lever-to-MC-actuation leverage ratio, and angle and kinematics of the master cylinder actuation through the lever arc, and so on. They tweak those things a lot to adjust for power, modulation, bite, varying hydraulic leverage and characteristics throughout the lever stroke (like Servowave), and so on. Loic Bruni even has a custom Magura master cylinder actuation contact point that attaches to the lever & touches the MC at a custom angle with articulation and leverage and hydraulic ratios optimized for his preferred brake feel / performance / bite / etc.
  • 1 0
 @WRCDH: thanks for the info. I'll give the m03 a try sometime. V4 uses a larger pad. E4 and the most recent m4 use the same pads... not sure about the 2 prior generation of m4s that used the smaller pistons though.
  • 1 0
 @WRCDH: you make a good point. Caliper piston size doesn't tell you much without knowing the master cylinder piston size. It's the ratio between them that matters. And all the other factors that you pointed out.
  • 2 0
 @Mac1987: @Mac1987: yeah, I haven't heard anyone try to claim that hopes are as powerful as saints and codes, but the comments that the power is "a joke", "seriously underpowered", etc. are bullshit. You would think the differences were night and day, but they're just not. If you want the strongest brakes with the lightest touch, that's a reasonable preference, go for it. Saying that hopes are joke or that you crashed because of how weak they are is just silly.

Some people just want to tell the internet about how certain parts can't withstand their radness. Hope brakes are weak af, double-down tires explode if I look at them funny, and pretty soon the fox 36 is gonna be a wet noodle. For truly exceptional circumstances, maybe. But good riders can make any of the good stuff work. For things like tire casings, it's one thing to know that you need a certain casing for your weight, speed, trails, style, whatever. It's a totally different thing to be all loud on the internet about how exo casings are total trash, plain and simple, because you tore the casing twelve times at the bike park. They're actually not shit. They have their place, and they work well for a lot of riders in the right conditions. But of course they're also not enough tire for other people and conditions.
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: yeah, I haven't heard anyone try to claim that hopes are as powerful as saints and codes, but the comments that the power is "a joke", "seriously underpowered", etc. are bullshit. You would think the differences were night and day, but they're just not. If you want the strongest brakes with the lightest touch, that's a reasonable preference, go for it. Saying that hopes are joke or that you crashed because of how weak they are is just silly.

Some people just want to tell the internet about how certain parts can't withstand their radness. Hope brakes are weak af, double-down tires explode if I look at them funny, and pretty soon the fox 36 is gonna be a wet noodle. For truly exceptional circumstances, maybe. But good riders can make any of the good stuff work. For things like tire casings, it's one thing to know that you need a certain casing for your weight, speed, trails, style, whatever. It's a totally different thing to be all loud on the internet about how exo casings are total trash because you tore the casing twelve times at the bike park. They're actually not shit. They have their place, and they work well for a lot of riders in the right conditions. But they're also not enough tire for other people and places.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Guide RE pairs a guide lever with the previous generation of Code caliper. Made to be cheap and powerful for ebikes. The calipers are gold. The levers have a shitty finish. I would like to upgrade levers only for a set of Guide RSC levers at some point... When I see a cheap pair or a set with leaky calipers on eBay.
  • 1 0
 @thegoodflow: I can very strongly recommend uberbike race matrix pads, they are better than shimano saint pads, I think you can get 4 sets for around £25, forgot to mention on 2 of my bikes with saint brakes I am using hope discs and have no problems with braking performance compared to the shimano discs,i swapped to hope disc just because I prefer the look of them on my bike
  • 44 17
 I know I’m going to get so many dislikes but I don’t understand why mineral oil is a pro argument.
I get that DOT is corrosive and can enter your blood stream if you’re not careful with it but it’s not like we’re drinking the stuff. Mineral Oil has a lower boiling point, requires more maintenance and is not equal for all brands so you always have to have a specific one for your system. DOT is cheap af, has a higher boiling point and requires less maintenance.So why do most people think mineral is better?I am genuinely interested.
  • 31 2
 Dot also eats paint and deteriorates when unused. I believe we're quite far off boiling point in MTB, the main problem is pads fading.
  • 16 0
 ...I have not yet had problems from not using Shimano brake fluid in a Shimano brake.
  • 96 1
 DOT taste better too
  • 22 6
 Not having to degass the fluid before bleeding brakes is a big plus for mineral oil. It takes me 5 minutes to do a lever bleed on my Saints, and maybe 20 to do a full flush. Back when I owned Avids, it took 10 minutes just to prep and degass two bleed cylinders.
  • 15 5
 @philmtb99 Another drawback to DOT brake fluid - it absorbs moisture aka hygroscopic.
  • 16 3
 @riish: 10mins to degass? You're doing something wrong.
  • 12 7
 You have to be much more careful while bleeding the dot brakes (you wrote it yourself) and the procedure for bleeding Avid/Sram is pain in the arse. It's fiddly and complicated.
If Sram adopts Shimano style funnel bleeding there would be much less dot brakes haters around.

Boiling point was never the issue..
  • 8 1
 @Whipperman: yes but when does brake fluid ever come in contact with your paint? When you bleed the brakes you always clean with alcohol no matter if you have DOT or Mineral.
  • 9 0
 @riish: Yeah but the Avid days are far gone. The Sram Guides were the last drop for the old style of sram brakes. If you ever get the chance to try out the Code RSC brakes you definitely should!
  • 4 4
 @bakemono: yeah that’s true but again. When it’s in your brakes it never comes in contact with the outside air. The only issue I see with hygroscopic fluids is that you can’t store them in a humid place once you’ve broken the seal. I don’t know about you but I don’t store my brake fluid in my shower so that point is really not applicable to real life unless you live in the rain forest.
  • 10 0
 @bakemono: that's not a drawback, it just means brake performance will slightly worsen over time and not abruptly because of evaporation which can lead to total brake failure.
  • 11 0
 The real problem is thinking a brake needs bleeding several times a year !
How often the brakes are being bled on a car ? All using DOT brake fluid by the way.
A big misconception is to think Mineral oil is "friendly" because called Mineral, but it is just as hazardous on skin, you need gloves to handle it... but again why would you bleed youe brake so often and need the fluid !!!
  • 5 9
flag Mocope (May 5, 2020 at 0:46) (Below Threshold)
 Actually mineraloil brakes need less maintenance as the brake fluid doesn't age. I have shimano brakes that are running like new nevertheless the last bleed was 4 years ago. DOT instead has to be changed regularly as the fluid mixes with water and gets old....
  • 11 3
 I'll give my voice to you!

My choise is DOT cause:
- no problem in winter
- i like my Code RSC

Smile
  • 5 2
 @pakleni: Agreed. I'm WAY more focused on easy bleeding than I am on whether a brake is dot or mineral oil. Converted all my brakes to shimano because it made working on them so much more hassle free! So happy to be done with the mess of stupid, leaky (and ludicrously overpriced) syringes!
  • 7 0
 @pakleni: you should try to bleed last models of sram brakes

no any problems, easy as fap
  • 4 2
 @bakemono: this is not a bug, this is a feature!
  • 2 2
 @fetagui: erm, no. I recently swapped callipers on my new bike from my old bike and vice versa, didn't wear gloves (never do, riding, digging, working as a builder, wood turning, all glove less, only welding gets gauntlets cos I'm not stupid) but wish I had only because it made everything more difficult because oily hands, literally zero issues, if anything it felt like it moisturised them a bit. Whereas the one time I helped a mate bleed a clutch and got dot fluid on me, it left mild chemical burns that itched for days. 10/10 would not recommend.
  • 4 2
 I don´t think the boiling point is really the big thing everyone is making of it, Brakeforce One made a brake that uses water as a hydraulic liquid, I ve tried one and there was no big difference to it. But the biggest "pro" for mineral oil for me is that we should start to care about what stuff we use and how we get rid of it after we used it. Not that oil is harmless but still much les harm is done when you rip your brakes of in a crash and loose some drops of oil instead of DOT.
  • 2 0
 @bakemono: MTB brakes are fully sealed Im not sure its a problem
  • 6 2
 @betobi: DOT is better at that because not only is it hygroscopic but it is also water soluble unlike mineral oil which just creates a layer of oil on top of the water so your point is invalid????
  • 1 3
 @bummel42: hygroscopic also means that the moist wil cause the brake fluid to expand. In humid climates this means you need to change brake fluid often, since the pistons do not retract enough because of too much fluid. That's a pain in the ass when you try to install new pads.
  • 4 0
 @Mocope: I dont understand the need for bleeding all the time, do people pump the brakes upside down?
  • 2 2
 @bakemono: That's sort of the point chief.
  • 7 1
 @Mocope: So when that same water gets into your mineral oil system what do you think happens?
  • 1 0
 @philmtb99: I probably should, but I've had a reliable set of M820's that have lasted me since 2013. No plans to change them up just for the sake of it!
  • 12 0
 @Mocope: please bleed them. As a mechanic I beg you. Mineral oil may not age, but it does pick up residue as your o-rings break down and can gunk up small ports in your brake causijg uneven piston movement or mess with your lever. Even if your not feeling power loss you should do a full fluid flush of your brakes once a season.
  • 6 1
 Dot is far better than mineral oil for brakes. I've had various Guides and Code brakes with Dot vs Shimano and Maguras with Mineral oil.
What happens is that Sram worked great for 2yrs without bleed (except old guides with sticky piston problem) and when bled the oil was clear and looked good.
Shimano mineral brakes required bleeding more often and the oil was black every time.
  • 2 1
 @kiddlivid: no worries! i'm a bike mechanic myself and i even used to work for some bigger companies in the bike industry Big Grin those brakes i'havent bled in years are on my xc bike, which i don't use for aggressive riding. Maybe i bleed those brakes later. I'm really interested to know, how much dirt really has gone into the fluid.

On my Enduros i bleed the brakes more often.
  • 3 1
 @PhillipJ: they loose power and i need to change the fluid. That has never happened to me in 10 years of riding Shimano, Magura and Tektro brakes.
  • 3 0
 @Mocope: ok, I know I've had to clean out an xt lever by cycling it for an hour with fresh mineral oil for a friend because a port in the lever got clogged somehow on a road trip. He owed me alot of beer.
  • 2 1
 @kiddlivid: I mainly run older Shimano levers (BLM988/820), because after that, the quality and the braking performance did not get better. Also those older levers are way easier for taking them apart.
  • 3 4
 @philmtb99: ok we got it you work in a place that sells DOT. If you have worked with any brake in your life you know that inevitably oil gets somewhere it shouldn't. DOT is way more harmful than mineral oil. It damages paint. It can not be stored in an unsealed container unless you live in a super dry country (1% of the mtb pop maybe). The boiling point difference is irrelevant for all people that know how to brake correctly. In addition DOT gets "hydrated" very fast and its boiling point goes down as a result anyways (so DOT could be considered a plus only if they use the special DOT that doesn't absorb water, afaik it's not used for bike brakes)
  • 2 0
 @riish: yeah definite plus for Shimano is they're a doddle to bleed
  • 6 2
 The big issue with mineral oil is that it contains air (about 8% by volume) and when it gets hot that air expands to create bubbles which clump together and don't get reabsorbed.

So get mineral oil hot and you've got a mushy brake that needs bled again. DOT fluids don't do this. Which is why they're used on all transport and race applications worldwide.
  • 3 1
 @riish: That's funny. Because mineral oil is the one that needs degassed. It contains about 8% air by volume. That's why all good suspension companies are vacuum bleeding and degassing oil these days.
  • 4 1
 @bakemono: That's not a drawback. It's an important safety feature. Without that any moisture which enters the system sits at the bottom and boils at the low temperature of 100C.

DOT fluid can absorb any moisture in the system and maintain a much higher boiling point.
  • 3 0
 @Mocope: That's not true. When was the last time you changed your cars DOT brake fluid? Many cars out there are on 10+ year old brake fluid.
  • 9 0
 The main advantage of DOT is that it absorbs water instead of allowing it to pool in one place therefore keeping the performance more consistent once the fluid gets above 100c. This is absolutely not an issue for bicycles. The amount of water that can get in is minimal with a good bleed, and you have to really try to get your fluid above 100c, given good caliper and rotor design.

Energy needed to be dissipated by brakes is proportional to mass * velocity squared. A rider on a motorcycle traveling at 60 mph has about 10 times the kinetic energy than a mtb rider traveling at 30 mph, which is fast as shit. The brake systems in comparison are not 10 times smaller between a motorcycle and a mountain bike.

And then you are left with negative of it being corrosive, which is a big thing if you work on your bike inside your apartment.
  • 2 4
 Is it just me rapturing the oring at the new bleed fitting for the caliper in Codes? Everytime I bleed my brakes I need new oring for the kit.
  • 3 0
 @phops: All of the drawbacks with DOT 4 fluid is solved by using DOT 5.1 instead, it's not corrosive (at least not compared to DOT4), it's even more stable, and it's compatible with DOT 4, so you don't have to perfectly clean the system to use it next time you change fluid.
  • 1 0
 @phops: Sorry for misinformation in previous post, mixed DOT 5.1 (corrosive for paint) with DOT 5 (non-corrosive for paint).
Don't ever use DOT 5 in system that has previously had any other form of DOT fluid, only use it in new dry systems or systems used with only DOT 5.
DOT 5.1 is just more temperatur stable than 4, ah well.
  • 3 0
 @Losvar: no the highest temperature resistant fluids are still DOT 4, for example Motul RBF 660. Which is still cheaper than shimano oil.
  • 2 0
 @zede: Not at all m8 I’m actually still in school so I don’t sell dot
  • 2 0
 @bakemono: That's actually a good thing. In a mineral oil system, moisture will collect and end up in the lowest point in the system: the brake caliper.
  • 4 0
 @bakemono: Sram talks about this as a bonus because it mixes in the system and lowers the boiling point of DOT a very small amount where as in a mineral oil system water will sink to the lowest point (caliper), not mix and experience the most heat in the system.
  • 6 0
 I prefer DOT due to better performance in winter. I've never had a problem with corrosion issues or paint problems in 5 or so years of bleeding SRAM brakes and 4 bikes in the family over that time.
  • 2 0
 @pakleni: not sure how it's complicated? With the kit it's dirt easy and as fast as newer Shimano. Way way way faster than old hayes
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: just you. I haven't wrecked one yet
  • 4 1
 @pakleni: I’ve never heard the SRAM bleed process described as fiddly and complicated before, and a master mechanic I am not.
  • 1 5
flag spaced (May 5, 2020 at 12:13) (Below Threshold)
 Mineral oil actually requires less maintenance. Dot eats seals faster than mineral.
  • 1 0
 @SickEdit: DOT 4 specifies a boiling point of at least 230 Celsius, 5.1 specifies 260.
I do believe 260 is higher than 230, no?
5.1 also works better than 4 at low temperatures.
  • 2 0
 @Losvar: it's true for the minimum requirement. However it is difficult to fulfill DOT 5.1 viscosity requirements while maintaining a boiling point over 300°C so the high performance racing stuff is DOT 4. Viscosity of 5.1 was optimized for ABS systems with their electronically controlled valves and that might be the reason why it is better suited to lower temperatures.
  • 1 0
 @SickEdit: That does make sense.
I have noticed that most brake fluid for racing applications are dot 4, but never really gave it much thought as to why.
  • 1 0
 @rory: I bought mine from AliExpress for super cheap if you ever go back. I'd like to try other kinds like Codes or Maguras, but for now I have the ability to bleed my own brakes for cheap.
  • 1 0
 @JimmyWeir: taste is in the eye of the beholder, or something like that
  • 1 0
 @nanaMEX: nothing as easy as fap.
  • 15 0
 One main question here.

How do the DHR's feel compared to the Quadiems? It sounds like it might be saying that they are a bit less modulation, and a bit more power?

Curious how the new pads compares to other pads. At the least it sounds like they didn't immediately feel they needed to swap to metalic, which if memory serves they did for the Quadiems (which come with a semi-metalic pad).

I've got a pair of TRP Quadiems, and I have really been enjoying them over the course of the last year.

The defining characteristic of the Quadiems for me, has just been how nothing seems to phase them. I've not done anything crazy with them, with my biggest single descent being ~1300ft, and biggest single day with them has been ~12,000ft (bike park day, bunch of 800ft laps). But through all of it, they haven't squeaked, vibrated, faded, pumped up, or anything. Thats good in my book.

Its good to hear that the DHR seems to share that. I'd consider them for a future build (on sale of course).
  • 1 0
 My thoughts exactly. Building up a new frame in the next couple weeks. If I have any line length issues with the rear I will definitely be going with a set of these.
  • 3 0
 Honestly, the DHR EVO's feel like Quadiems on steroids. I've got them on my Commecal Supreme 29 and they slow that thing down like it's nothing!
  • 1 0
 Love the Quadiems! Been rocking them on the DH rig for 2 years. Totally agree on the unphased part. Loads of power, very consistent, nice modulation (for me anyway). Definitely recommend them!
  • 1 0
 Bikemag touches on this in their review
  • 1 0
 @SimbaandHiggins:

Thanks for the tip.

www.bikemag.com/gear/components/brakes/first-impressions-trp-dh-r-evo-brake-230

Looks like they are saying the lever shape is about the same, but the lever blade itself is slimmer. This might be a good thing, as the original G spec lever blade is pretty wide, and maybe not great for smaller hands.

Also looks like the hose diameter, and lever blade will be a rolling change for their other models. Wonder if that means those of us with originals can change (ie, if I order new hose for a new build, will I get the smaller stuff, or the larger stuff, and will it matter).

Cool to see that other changes are being made though.
  • 14 0
 Let me say the same thing I say every time TRP brakes are reviewed: TRP brake products are overlooked by many riders and they shouldn't be. They aren't flashy or have a bunch of trademarked names for doodads but darn it, they just work and work without fuss for ages. They use standard Shimano pads and standard hardware, so unlike some, you won't be SOL if you need pads on a bike trip.
  • 4 0
 For sure. I took a chance on them because of how affordable they are and they havent let me down over the last three years. I wont look elsewhere unless they give me a reason to.
  • 1 0
 How’s the bleed process? Does it require proprietary tools? I love how easy it is for Shimano.
  • 1 0
 @skelldify: uses Shimano mineral oil and I believe it is the same size screw as the Shimano saints. Very easy to bleed
  • 1 0
 I agree, they may not have the most features and the design may not suit everyone but they are reliable, quiet, and powerful. They are great. Plus the ability to run saint pads takes away some the stress of buying from not Shimano/Sram
  • 1 0
 +1 Had my TRP Slates 18 months and I've bled them once because I felt like I should (it was easy). Other than that I've just put new pads in them and they keep on going. Love the fact I can just buy Shimano pads in bulk for them. Meanwhile the SRAM Levels on my XC bike are a PITA and use unique road bike pads...
  • 1 0
 Honestly my years on a road bike led to my hatred of TRP. Wanna be scared? Try a Fast mountain descent with some TRP road calipers. They were some seriously horrible products. Seems like they’ve gotten it together with the MTB brakes for sure but brand associations die hard.
  • 2 0
 @skelldify: Different bleed cup threads.
  • 1 0
 @DrPete: I have TRP Sypres on my road/gravel bike. Best mechanical brakes ever. They are what got me on the TRP bandwagon. They aren't hydros and they shouldn't be treated as such, but for mechanical disc brakes, they are light years better than other mechanical brakes.
  • 1 0
 @CycleKrieg: my experience was with their rim brakes.
  • 1 0
 @DrPete: [checks calendar, yep its 2020] Rim brakes, what are those? ;-)
  • 1 0
 @CycleKrieg: I didn’t say I was road biking recently, just that TRP rim brakes were turds when I rode them. Smile
  • 1 0
 @skelldify: Basically the same bleed process as Shimano. The threads at the lever are too large for the Shimano bleed cup, so either use the two syringe method with a TRP compatible bleed kit, or what I do is use a syringe with the plunger out as a DIY bleed cup. They don’t need bleeding often. I did 40,000m of descending in Les Arc last summer and the front needed a couple of bubble bleeds and the back was rock solid so didn’t touch it. Oil was still completely clean. Same trip the year before I was doing a full bleed every two days on Shimano and the oil was black.
  • 15 0
 Got to love the way brake reviews always decent into an argument on shimano v hope v sram even when they are not the company that is actually getting reviewed.
  • 4 0
 Exactly what happened last time Quadiems were reviewed. I was trying to find info in the comments, but there wasn't any.
  • 12 0
 I really don’t buy the idea that e-bikes ever needed any beefier components than a regular mountain bike. Adult rider weights come in anywhere from around 100 to 300 lbs, but somehow a frame that is 10-15 lbs heavier requires a whole new spec of components to handle the load?
  • 2 0
 Shhhhhhhhhh
  • 1 0
 good legit interrogation
  • 13 0
 230$ for one Brake? Guess i'll pass and stick to my tried and trusted MT5's.
  • 11 1
 mmmmm plastic
  • 8 0
 I'd love to see a comparison of the latest Shimano, SRAM, Hope, Magura, Hayes and Formula 4-pot brakes. Every review ends with 'enough modulation, enough power, serious contender when considering a new brake'. When reading user experiences, the differences seem huge. When reading individual reviews, the differences seem marginal and a matter of preference. A full comparison on the same day/week might show the truth.
  • 10 2
 I really want to try the new Hayes Dominion brakes. I've heard nothing but good things about them. How the Dominions compare?
  • 10 0
 Most under rated brake of all. Tons of power, buttery lever feel, crazy good modulation, hold bleeds well, consistent, and that smart caliper alignment screw. Been running them for 2 years, been perfect.
  • 7 0
 I didn't notice in the article....was there any mention of ball bearing levers on these? That's definitely one of my favorite features of the better brakes I've used. The Hayes Dominion #1.
  • 9 3
 Watching Waki and Goodflow go at each other is like watching 2 chimps throw poop at each other in a zoo. Really entertaining to watch, but you hope to high above that they don't turn on you.
  • 5 0
 I run Quads on my bikes, they work great, perhaps not the most powerful, but they are plenty for normal riding, and the modulation is excellent. I’ve never had problems with the Quads, would happily buy a set of their new brakes.
  • 4 0
 Ran some TRP Quadiem on my last bike and I must say these were some of the best ergonomics of any brake I have ever riding. Liked how thick their levers actually are compared to the likes of shimano for instance, very consistent as well. Surprised that these new ones feel "less" ergonomic!
  • 7 0
 2000 feet over 1 mile? That's 600m over 1600m, are you sure you are running 1.5x val di sole on an optic?
  • 1 0
 Yeah, I’d love to know where this is!! Tall and steep!
  • 8 0
 To be more specific, it's 2,028 feet over 1.54 miles. It's a good one.
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: working on a long term review of the Optic?
  • 4 0
 Brakes definitely need to evolve to the same level suspension did in the last few years.

I am on Shigura MT7/SLX brakes right now, very, very nice but i still find they could improve. Those new TRPs look promising in my opinion.

Sometimes it feels like evolution on brakes has been going backwards, but we have to remember wheels grew larger in diameter, tires grew as well so obviously the same once powerful brakes got weaker. Then geometry and kinematics improved massively and while most people may not realise, most of us are riding faster because the bikes are way more capable. I hope more larger size rotors become available so we can get some of this lost leverage back.

I remember loving one finger braking on XTR VBrakes on Mavic crossMax's with ceramic coared rims. Talk about modulation.. Then I started doing downhill and had Magura Gustav M's (1999-2000). I recall those brakes as flawless (unless you turned the bike upside down or crashed them. Those 2 piston on rails brakes still probably have the largest pads I have seen on bike brakes up to now. I recall the rear brake was a bit grabby on dusty, slippery conditions but otherwise they felt perfect. My riding skills grew with those predictable and powerful brakes.

I may be a bit picky, but as I started riding again a few years ago, the first set of brakes I bought were shimano XT. I still remembered the M755 and 765 were so nice, so I got a set of 785s. Those were "mostly" OK, much better than the AVID alternatives for that time in my opinion (for leakage and noise, not the actual braking itself).
Rode 2013 codes, very nice braking but i couldn't leave the levers exposed to the sun as the contact point would change because of the fluid expansion.. This would also happen on longer descents.. Fast forward, and I rode some bikes with M8000's and I couldn't believe I was riding shimano brakes... lots of leak problems but the worse, this is where I first discovered the changing contact point issue.Never bought these.
M8100 came out and every website said the problem was fixed.. M8120 appeared and now all was fixed (cool I thought, I really need to buy some new brakes) and the 9120 were released, (wow, free of previous problems they say) so I made the investment. These were shimano's after all. Boy, was I disappointed..

The 9120's didin't make the impression the 785s had before. And after replacing both calipers for leaks I still couldn't shake the changing lever throw problem, despite having a rock solid lever feel so I sold them.Not only because of the problems but I was actually expecting more power out of them.
I did try mixing the new 9120 calipers with shimano old school 765 style levers but the lever throw issue remained (from the calipers???) The braking was nice though, powerful and very linear.

Alternatives?
Had a set of Guides, properly bleeded, felt they lacked power and the lever is narrow, hurts if the power comes from finger strength (same with lever shape vs power on hopes btw)
Tested some codes, those have the power but i still find the lever too thin.
Hopes.. no hope (for me) after testing a set of E4s. I want my fingers to control the braking, not to do the braking.
Hayes dominions felt OK but I didn't have enough time on them.
TRPs, didn't find any to test but the lever shape looked promising.
Formulas.. I never had luck finding (affordable) spare parts with these
Trickstuff.. I wish i could try these, but out of my league.


So I ended up buying the Magura MT7's over the MT5s because of the lever throw ajustment and besides the horrible plastic stuff, I actually loved the brakes from the first parking lot test. More powerful than the 9120's, easy to modulate, fat lever doesn't hurt the fingers on 1 finger braking (maybe too fat Smile ). At this stage I thought I loved the MT7's but then I tried a shigura set MT5 with M500 lever from a friend and I was instantly hooked. Very little lever throw and bucketloads of power.
My shiguras started life with (borrowed for testing ) M9000 levers but the carbon blade made them feel a bit dead so I bought a pair of 7100 SLX levers and so far, they are nice.
Improvements?
MT7s come with four pads per caliper (one pad per piston), which add initial bite (more edges) but the pads start wearing more at the front edge and they become a bit spongey over time. The MT5s (same caliper) come with two pads only so this should not be such a deal. I will probably buy trickstyff power+ pads as well.
The SLX lever is nice and has a decent price but i thing I may prefer a non servo lever. ( I am thinking "let the pad compound do the braking").

I may try those 765 levers on the MT7 calipers one of these days. Or one of these new TRL levers.. should be fun Smile
  • 3 0
 As a happy user of older TRP Slate T4 those brakes are way BETTER than expected but with one iritating fault: bleed screw on the caliper is godf*ckingterrible so it would be nice if you write something about that. Did they fix it?
  • 1 0
 Which bleed screw do you have? is it flush?
  • 1 0
 @bedell99: No, the old one sticking up.
  • 6 0
 Why have a 220mm and 223mm size option? Why not just one of them?
  • 4 0
 Same reason why you have 200mm and 203mm one is imperial the other is metric. Really it makes no difference at all in the real world.
  • 5 1
 The Fox 40 has a 203mm post mount (8") while the RS Boxxer uses 200mm. By having 220 and 223, you can use a 20mm adapter on both forks to get the correct fit instead of needing a 20mm for a Boxxer and a 17mm adapter on a 40.
  • 5 8
 @philmtb99: 203mm sounds pretty metric to me
  • 3 2
 @ismasan: so does 2,54cm but it’s a conversion of an inch. 203mm are 8inches if I remember correctly
  • 5 0
 @DH1977, some fork manufacturers list 220mm as their max rotor size. 3mm isn't much, but this way you wouldn't have to worry about voiding your warranty.
  • 3 1
 @philmtb99: you remember right, I'm just highlighting the non sense of calling things metric only if they're round numbers and multiples of 5mm, when in reality something is metric the very moment you use metric units. But non sense in mtb? never
  • 1 0
 @ismasan: I mean, 31.8mm is a metric measurement, but that doesn't mean its metric tubing.
  • 1 0
 @ismasan: Come on you’re British you should know this. Not everything rounded up to five is metric. It’s just not imperial measurements converted into metric. Everything could be metric but numbers will be uneven and full of decimal points.
  • 3 1
 Is it possible that any of the brakes listed above in that childish stupid fanboy conversation, could just possibly not work the same for someone, as they do for someone else?? Jesus H f*cking Christ. If someone buys Hope, Shimano, Sram or whatever, and the brakes either work, or don't work for them, or maybe are weak for whatever reason, than for f*cks sake , maybe that really is their experience with them. Snowflakes must have run out of series to watch on Netflix.
  • 1 1
 Have to agree with you @jason475, it's pretty subjective. I personally think it comes down to pad compound for Hopes, but that's just my personal experience.
  • 2 0
 I've had the Quadiums for about a month and so far, they have been good. I had Shimano (every generation) Sram/Avid (Juicy, guide) The TRP seem to be the best of both worlds. They are easy to bleed, super consistent lever feel and mineral oil. A few design things I wish were different (rear pad access, bleed nipple with screw) but overall, they are very similar to the original Saint brakes in regards to feel and consistency. The Quadium doesn't have rear entry pads though like this brake. A factor that makes alignment a bitch! Had I known, I would have waited and gotten these instead. The way TRP ships their brakes is pretty trick. Everything is prebled but the lever and caliper is disconnected so it's fairly easy to install. Their olive and fittings are also improved from Shimano. The level feel is very linear, the harder you pull, the faster you stop. Would be nice if they had more progressivity to them but in all, I'm happy I no longer have to guess how my shimanos will feel when I need them to work!
  • 6 1
 Do ebikes inspired dh parts?
  • 1 0
 We need a comparison for brakes consistency and bleeding easiness
Im just disgusted with shimano biting point. Have tried hope and don’r have power. Sram only makes good rsc codes and you still cab get a bad badge. Year 2020 and carbon blabla and brakes are still a big failure.
  • 3 0
 magura mt5 is cheap, light, reliable, consistent, very powerful, great modulation, great lever feel, forged 1pc caliper is the strongest design as found on moto's.
  • 2 0
 @Lagr1980: I agree. Plus, is very easy to replace the magnetic pads and they don't rattle. You don't like the lever, then use a Shimano XT or XTR lever.
  • 1 0
 @PabloMoll: Haven't had the need to replace with Shimano levers, but it's good to know that option is there if need be. But with the price,reliability, power and modulation, it can't be beat in my opinion.
  • 2 0
 I don't think I like industrial design taking over brake caliper looks. It doesn't happen in any other type of racing, or motorsports because of obvious reasons.
  • 8 4
 Wacky only commented 11 times ! TOOL...
  • 2 0
 I just got a set of the new SLX four piston brakes and man these are awesome for the price compared to the upper guys I’ll give these a shot when my slx dies
  • 2 2
 @Hayes should re-issue the HFX-9. I had them for 5 years of swapping back and forth between a dj and a dh bike. I spent more time cutting zip ties than servicing the brakes and they had all of the consistency and lever feel I could ask for.

Had I know every brake since would be so terrible, I’d have sold the bike without them
  • 5 0
 Hayes HFX consistency = garbage all the time.
  • 2 0
 I have the Quadiem G-Spec on my DH, and have come to find I don't need another brake at all. Now to find some slates or trail SLs for my trail bike..
  • 1 0
 @ajorda: just put some g-spec sl’s on and probably shoulda got Gspec quads. Basically the same weight, same feel, but plain black finish (liking the polished these days).
  • 1 0
 I’m glad TRP is always releasing new stuff, but the silver quadiem G-spec DH brakes are gonna be hard to top. Easily the most powerful, easiest to service and best looking brakes I’ve ever had.
  • 1 1
 Is this the end of the thread? I'm exhausted.
My experience: Hayes burned up coming down Pikes Peak, Shimanos turned to mush mid run after a pro bleed, Srams made noise but couldn't even break the tire loose halfway down, and Hopes have done everything I ask.
  • 1 0
 Check out how the syndicate bleeds Shimano brakes. Brilliant. Brakes feel solid and consistent after. Full bleed takes 10min.

Watch "THE SYNDICATE - Pit Tips - Brake Bleeding" on YouTube
youtu.be/piWBVDh1pTE
  • 3 0
 the Visit the high-res gallery for more images link is to the wrong album
  • 3 1
 is there any lever that has contact adjust that actually does work? like really genuinely works?
  • 5 0
 Hope
  • 9 8
 Hopes contact adjust works great, finish quality is top notch, bleeding is a breeze but when you press the lever you wonder where's the power.
  • 3 1
 Hope, but u need really strong fingers to get enough power out of them
  • 3 0
 They need longer levers, im on v4s with some custom levers, best brake I have come across and they will probably last til next decade. ive tried almost everything else.
  • 3 2
 @WAKIdesigns: you already admitted to only trying the x2, which is an xc brake. Your opinion on the power of hope brakes, like many of your opinions, is baseless. You're right about the finish quality and bite point adjust though.
  • 4 0
 SRAM RSC versions
  • 3 2
 shimano, independently of what people who don't know how to use it say
youtu.be/D0uSTtDWbI8
  • 3 0
 Dominions
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Idk my e4s have plenty of power, not as much as my Code Rs though. But even then I have never had any "oh shit" moments with my hopes. The tire always fails first.
  • 1 2
 hope doesn't have contact adjust - it has lever position adjust like pretty much all brakes do.
  • 1 3
 @fracasnoxteam: I have hope and that adjusts the lever like the knob on an XT lever does. as a by product it pushes the fluid so engages the brake. I have a old pair of hope XC4 brakes that actually had a bite point adjuster because you pushed the fluid by turning a knob on the reservoir leaving the brake lever in the same position.
  • 3 0
 @mtb-scotland: the dial says 'BPC', what does it stand for?
  • 2 0
 @ismasan: it's probably bad panda or something, as it doesn't stand for something like bite point. There is no bite point control on hope he said.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: "where's the power?"

That's what they say when you hit the gym! ROTFLMAO!!
  • 1 3
 @ismasan: it adjusts the lever which as a by product pushes the pistons in. Your screwed if you like the lever further out. its the same as you get in pretty much every other brake lever.
  • 1 0
 @mtb-scotland: watch this video and let me know your thoughts
youtu.be/jhFLNE9H6Og
  • 3 0
 Who would have thought a brake review could provide so much entertainment.
  • 3 0
 Man this thread is entertaining
  • 3 1
 Literal dumpster fire
  • 3 0
 @Ajorda: one that I will gladly warm my hands over haha
  • 3 0
 That price point, and they come with resin pads?
  • 2 0
 Can someone please explain why 223mm is a size? 220 just wasnt cutting the mustard?
  • 3 1
 203mm is 8 inches. The american disk brake manufacturers, hayes and avid, made 8" rotors. The bike industry has since gone to metric, so TRP is still using the legacy 8" size and added 20mm. Yes it's dumb, but it makes sense from the supply side.

Also you can add a couple washers to run 223 rotors with a 220 caliper bracket, but not the reverse.
  • 3 0
 Wait, where are the cooling fins?(j/k)
  • 6 3
 Looks like a session
  • 4 6
 I must be the only one here, but I would never ride anything other than Shimano brakes.. I have them on all my bikes, my kid's and my god children's bike.. the bleeding procedure is easy, and I am too clumsy to bleed the brake with Dot fluid... I mostly use Saints and Zee, but then some XTs .. all in, I 've never had any problem with modulation, though I might be not as fussy about it.. i really only need it to stop when i pull on them - but maybe I have low expectations... i tried the Sram Guides and I hated how they felt like they won't brake - but I guess this is the modulation you guys talk about... What I did realize on several bike trips though, is that Srams tend to have brake fade on long descends.. seems to have something to do with either moisture or air pressure from the flights... Never had that issue on any Shimanos.... just my humble opinion
  • 2 0
 These bleed the same way
  • 2 0
 If you like Shimano, you’ll like the TTP brakes, similar feel, good quality, levers are different; big hands for the Quads
  • 1 1
 Is there ANY pad contact adjustment on the market that legitimately works? If there is, I have yet to experience them.
IMHO, not a valid negative.
  • 1 0
 They look like rad brakes, but it is a bummer it doesn't have pad contact adjustment.
  • 2 2
 Is anyone else not a fan of holes in the lever, particularly when riding without gloves?
  • 4 3
 "Stainless steel composite pistons." Explain that marketing bullshit.
  • 2 0
 There is a ceramic puck inside the stainless steel piston. This helps isolate heat in the caliper.
  • 1 0
 220mm AND 223mm rotor options? Smart!
  • 1 0
 Wonder how those brakes vs trickstuff maxima..
  • 1 0
 Brake less, ride bikes
  • 1 0
 posted twice?? Frown
  • 4 4
 Gosh that looks cheap
  • 3 4
 Trickstuff Maxima or bust.
  • 2 4
 I wish they would have a 257mm and 303mm rotor option.
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