Review: TRP's New TR12 Shifter and Derailleur

May 19, 2020
by Mike Kazimer  
TRP


They're best known for their brakes, but in 2019 TRP stepped into the drivetrain world with the debut of the DH7 shifter and derailleur, components that were first seen being tested by Aaron Gwin on the World Cup downhill circuit. The new TR12 components are the follow-up act, a shifter and derailleur that are designed to work with 12-speed cassettes and chains from other manufacturers.

The TR12 derailleur has all of the features found on the DH7, including an adjustable clutch and the Hall Lock, which locks the B-knuckle to the derailleur hanger. It also has a carbon fiber outer cage and upper link in order to lose a few more grams.

TRP TR12 Details
• 12-speed shifter and derailleur
• Carbon cage and upper link on derailleur
• Adjustable clutch
• Adjustable Hall Lock
• Colors: black, gold, silver
• Weight: 291 grams (derailleur), 110 grams (shifter)
• MSRP: $329.99 / set, shifter: $109.99, derailleur: $229.99 USD
www.trpcycling.com

The actual weight of the derailleur is 291 grams, and the shifter weighs 110 grams. Retail price for the shifter and derailleur together is $329.99


TRP
Textured thumb paddles.
TRP
There's 40-degrees of range for customizing the lever position.


Shifter

The TR12 shifter is pretty much the same as the DH7 except that, surprise, surprise, it has 11-clicks instead of 6. One push of the larger paddle will shift through up to four gears, with a distinct 'click' for each, while the smaller lever is used to move the derailleur and chain down the cassette one cog at a time. The levers have raised diagonal lines on them for extra grip, and the position of the larger paddle can be adjusted by 20-degrees in either direction to make sure it sits in exactly the right spot.


TRP
TRP
The Hall Lock feature locks the B-knuckle in place, preventing the derailleur from rotating clockwise and hitting the frame.


Derailleur

The overall design and function of the TR12 derailleur isn't radically different from the norm, but there are a few features and details that set it apart. The most visible is the Hall Lock, the lever that sits just behind the derailleur mounting bolt. When the lever is closed it locks the B-knuckle in place, preventing the derailleur from rotating clockwise and contacting the back of the frame's dropouts. A 2mm set screw allows the amount of resistance the Hall Lock provides to be adjusted, or it could be turned off completely if a rider decided not to take advantage of that feature.

Along with the Hall Lock, the TR12 has a ratcheting clutch mechanism that's turned on or off via a sliding switch. The amount of resistance if provides is adjustable via a pair of 2mm screws that are partially hidden by the upper pulley wheel. Adjusting the clutch isn't the easiest task, especially with the rear wheel on – it's easier to do with the wheel off and the bike in a stand rather than on the side of a trail. It's also worth noting that a small turn of each screw can make a big difference – it's best to start with 1/8th of a turn if more clutch resistance is needed.

TRP also designed in a couple of handy set-up helpers. A white line on the backside of the outer cage makes it easy to set the proper B-tension – it should line up with the largest cassette cog once the tension is correct. On the other side of the cage there's a small chain icon that helps check for the right chain length. That icon should line up with the one printed on the derailleurs knuckle when the chain is sitting on the smallest cassette cog.


TRP
Those printed emblems help make it easy to check that the chain is the right length
TRP
The clutch can be turned on and off by sliding this switch. The tension adjustment takes place on the other side via a pair of 2mm screws.


Installation

Installation didn't present any problems, and the little chain length and B-tension indicators did help make the process even easier. The rubber cable port cover on the shifter is a little fiddly, but it's not exactly something that you'll be removing and re-installing all that often. The bulk of my testing took place with the TR12 components paired with a SRAM X01 cassette and chain. Since they don't make their own cassettes or chains, TRP has a list of recommended match-ups, and SRAM is at the top, followed by Shimano, SunRace, and e*thirteen.

I did end up increasing the clutch tension slightly after my first ride in order to reduce the amount of chain slap. The stock setting was a little too light for my liking; what I settled on was closer to the amount of tension typically found on a Shimano derailleur.


TRP


Performance

The ergonomics of the shifter worked relatively well for me once I'd adjusted the thumb lever position by a few degrees. Each shift creates a very positive, audible click – there's no vagueness here. However, the amount of effort it takes to actually make those shifts, especially moving the chain up the cassette, is more than I would have liked. It takes a decent amount of force to push that thumb lever, and it's not nearly as effortless as what you'll find with high-end SRAM or Shimano shifters.

I replaced the cable and housing to ensure that that wasn't the issue – it wasn't – and I also turned the clutch off to see if that was the cause. It is easier to shift with the clutch off, but even then, there was more resistance than I expected. The shifts themselves were fine – the chain moved the correct amount each time, and there wasn't any skipping or jumping around on the cassette.

The clutch does its job – I didn't have any dropped chains, and I wasn't running a chain guide of any sort, although it was hard to find the sweet spot between too much and two little resistance. The resistance that it applies is also a little less consistent than SRAM's or Shimano's clutch mechanisms – TRP's is a little more jerky feeling as the cage is pulled forward.

It's too early to comment on really long term durability, but over the course of the last two months the TR12 components have been subjected to plenty of wet, muddy rides, and so far all of the bearings and pivots are still operating smoothly.



Pros

+ Handy set up features
+ Derailleur is very adjustable and serviceable
+ Adjustable thumb lever position

Cons

- Takes more effort to push thumb paddle compared to Shimano or SRAM
- Can be hard to find sweet spot between too much and not enough clutch resistance
- Price is on the high side




Pinkbike's Take
bigquotesI'd be more likely to cut TRP a little slack on the new TR12 components if the price was more wallet-friendly. As it is, that $330 price is a tough sell, especially since you can get the new Shimano Deore shifter and derailleur for $87 with only a 30 gram weight penalty and better shifting performance. Or a SRAM GX derailleur and shifter for $150 with no weight penalty at all. The TR12's list of adjustments, and the fact that it's easily serviceable is impressive, but unfortunately, in this case the price vs. performance ratio simply doesn't work out in TRP's favor. 
Mike Kazimer








313 Comments

  • 132 12
 Will any small drivetrain manufacturer ever be able to match the performance of Shimano? It doesn't seem like anyone has even come close. It's too bad, it would be nice to have a truly viable choice compared to blue or red.
  • 124 38
 Including Sram that is.
  • 24 44
flag EnduroManiac (May 19, 2020 at 0:25) (Below Threshold)
 Do you call SRAM small? Big Grin
  • 180 35
 @EnduroManiac: He called them unable to match Shimano's performance and is correct
  • 196 55
 Latest Deore is the genuine Sram killer. Sram has a real problem unless they change the game again with some mega invention, like it was with N/W and wide range cassettes. Deore is same or better quality than GX and costs almost half. XT is on XX1 level and XTR is in a league of it's own. They can maybe make a 13 speed drivetrain, it seems that's their last resort. If Shimano releases the new edition of Di2, AXS will be dead too.
  • 62 15
 @WAKIdesigns: Gearboxes
  • 63 2
 Microshift Advent X
Mine is pretty much perfect and 100% reliable so far - plus the whole group costs less than the TRP derailleur here tested
  • 30 4
 It's kind of sad really, from a shift quality perspective slx beats out xx1. I haven't ridden deore yet but I bet it shifts better than srams too. Sram is at least an option from parts availability and it functions but Shimano is just too good.
  • 25 5
 @SupraKZ: Do I have to explain it was a tiny joke highlighting the indeed inability of SRAM to match Shimano's performance? Seems like it.
  • 35 9
 @WAKIdesigns: Every time Shimano comes out with any group at all everyone swears it's going to put SRAM out of business yet they seem to persist. Why is that?
  • 6 0
 @Germanmike: Advent is solid if you don't need too much range. Still with deore 4100 released it's got some real competition, an I don't know if it will win.
  • 10 3
 @zyoungson: I think a 13-speed cassette is more likely unfortunately!
  • 14 0
 @jaame: Dont give them any ideas
  • 19 1
 @fullfacemike: Its cuz sram is part of the Illuminati, only reasonable explanation
  • 67 3
 @fullfacemike: OEM mega deals thanks to including suspension in the package.
  • 81 4
 @fullfacemike:
That's because the Pinkbike comment opinion bubble dosen't represend the real world.
In reality the difference in performance of highend Sram and Shimano stuff is tiny.
Some prefer the light click, and crisp shifting of Sram and some the bit smoother Shimano feeling. Both work really well.
  • 21 21
 @hmstuna: If I compare to 10 and 11sp, the difference between Deore and SLX is very small. Same with XT and XTR. XT is all one could ever wish and XTR just offers icing on the cake although the 11sp was a let down in terms of design/aesthetical value I personally think. It looked like a posh Alfine. I have and it's function is absolutely stellar, but I would never buy that hideous chainset with anodizing that would wear out in a matter of a month. Every modern 12sp Shimano looks stunning. Even Deore. I just wish Shimano made XTR cassette with weight coming close to XX1.
  • 33 51
flag WAKIdesigns (May 19, 2020 at 1:47) (Below Threshold)
 @OneTrustMan: you are dreaming. It may be tiny if all you do is pedal fireroads and care for you drivetrain like round glassed hipster cares for his sour dough and beard. Just changing cassette to Shimano is a major performance boost but then you are still left with needing perfectly straight hanger and immaculate tension setup or it will ghost shift and it's not like the rear mechs are sticking out like hell. I won't even go into materials used. Now Sram will make direct mount rear mechs, hanging off a stiff axle, with no hanger to give in case of an impact and SRAM derailleur will become an even more of a shit show. at the time of 10 speed if was indeed a choice like Canon - Nikon or BMW vs Merc. Not anymore. You are now chosing between Opel Tigra at the price of BMW M4 and BMW M4 at the price Tigra, then some TRP Aygo comes along costing like Nissan GTR, not to mention that Rotor shit show. Of all alternatives, only Suntour makes sense, because they know their place and are getting better and better at it
  • 10 0
 @WAKIdesigns: there is only about 16g difference isn't there?
  • 14 17
 @jaame: oh crap! Even less points for SRAM...
  • 7 7
 @SupraKZ: *laughs in AXS* lol
  • 26 5
 @OneTrustMan: I finally got got 12sp Sram GX this year with my new bike and the shifting quality is much worse then my 3 year old, banged up 11sp XT. The bike shop told me that it is a typical experience and they run Shimano on their own bikes.
  • 39 1
 @jaame: 13 speed is bad luck, they should go straight to 14
  • 26 0
 @fullfacemike:
I"m guessing a large reason is because SRAM does a better job at grabbing OE business by bundling drivetrain, suspension, and peripherals together(forcibly with some of it).
  • 8 1
 @Konyp: I personally haven't tried 12 speed GX, but had 2 bikes with gx11 and it felt plastic-y and indirect. Going to x01 12 was a big improvement, you can go thru the gears & put power down knowing it wont bug a shift. Having said that the mech developed play and clutch was done after 6 months, it makes funny creaking noises if you move it side to side. Will be giving shimano a go for the next bike.

Sram has definitely dropped their quality in recent years, the old x9 9 and 10 speed was actually quite nice. I had to swap an x9 10 speed mech a few years ago for a gx because that was all the bike shop had. Was surprised at how much plastic and bits of pressed steel had replaced nice chunks of alu. Seems they are happy drop quality but keep prices up there and tell you it is the best ever in the marketing
  • 5 4
 What do you mean SRAM SX is so so good @WAKIdesigns:
  • 6 1
 @zyoungson: I've had an SLX 12 speed and done just shy of 1000km since January, approx half on and half off road.
It's shagged. The clutch doesn't work properly and the cage bends like toffee.
I am going to swap it for an XT unit. Even though the clutch is said to be identical, I am hoping there are more differences in quality of materials throughout the part. It's a shame, because I love that blue gunmetal hue of the 7100.
  • 4 3
 @Konyp: I really rate the shifting and longevity of XT M8000.
  • 21 18
 @zyoungson: 9sp X9 was way better than XTR. X0 was absolutely incredible. Then 10sp came and to this day I am running X9shifter/ X9 rear mech on my commuter/gravel/roadie, just changing pulleys once per 1.5-2 years. I also have 10sp X0 shifter and X9 type2 rear mech which I now installed on my daughters bike. That X9 type 2 was slammed all over the place, it killed the total of 4 hangers, it is slightly loose in paralellogram but it still shifts better than 12sp XX1 only few months in. It fricking does. I prefer that 10sp sram combo operation over my XTR 11sp, because shifting is more evident, I like clunking. If Shimano made a 10sp 11-42 cassette that shifts just as well as XTR 11sp cassette, I'd fricking run it over XTR shifter/rear mech. 10sp Shimano shifting was whatever, I put a long cage 10sp XT with 1 mile long B-screw on 11-42 Sunrace cassette on my wives bike and it is pathetic, but 11sp is top notch and 12sp XTR is unbeatable by a huge margin. You can get off the bike next to a taller rock or curb, stand on it - upshift 3 times, set the pedal in 45deg facing forward, and jump on that pedal and it will fricking shift like nothing happened. We actually performed this experiment with my friend. 11 and 12sp Sram has problem shifting under slightest power. Works on fireroad, not exactly when riding in undulating terrain where you need to shift when pedalling hard on low cadence.
  • 1 3
 @fullfacemike: Quite simple, see, if Shimano was to buy SRAM as a whole there would be a massive push for anti-monopoly in the US (and possibly Europe). As it is, Shimano is a harsh as Specialized when it comes to patent enfocement...so, if X works, and Box/SRAM/TRP do X....well, they end up in court. Optionally, you see "Y" and look at Rotor, and, in general go right back to X.
  • 7 8
 @Konyp: I went from GX to XX1 last weekend. A few observations I have noticed after about 2yrs on GX.

It is not at all even close to the performance

of any road groupset I have been on in 20 years, let alone Record/Super Record.

Why is it mechanics do not use that red thinger to set the B screw? Works so much better if you do (I guess the red thing is not cool).

Oh, and most shop guys near me are on SRAM, but, for hipster reasons.
XX1 is far superior in feel...still, not even close to Record.
  • 4 1
 @WAKIdesigns: you actually did that with xtr? Sounds like a recipe for singing high notes on the top tube. I personally rate sunrace cassettes for the sole reason that they are right price and that you can swap individual cogs when they wear out. I always wear out the 2nd highest cog as that is what I use for going downhill, and paying sram prices for a cassette with one worn cog isnt fun. Also sunrace seems to wear better, I generally do one chain swap then run the cassette out. On sram I was constantly swapping chains as the shifting would go off. Sunrace seems to wear in nice then you can run it til the cassette is done.
  • 18 13
 The worst thing to happen to 12 speed, is that it was made. The pinnacle for MTB was 11speed, any more and they are just introducing problems.
  • 23 11
 @WAKIdesigns:
Yeah and the earth is flat, space is liquid, the universe is electric and every non Shimano metal is cheese.
And of course everything is planned by the reptiluminati alien overlords, which Sram is a part of. I have heard it all.

Meanwhile some people just riding their bikes and have a blast on whatever parts they have and without ever making a comment here.
  • 8 0
 @WAKIdesigns: The new Shimano stuff shifts so easy under load it is mind boggling... I've been on an SLX/XT set up for the past 3 weeks and I'm more impressed each time I ride it! I also haven't had faith in a Sram drivetrain since their X9 9-speed, I just pulled it off my wifes bike this spring after 10 years of service between my old bike and hers. The only reason I removed the X9 was to give her a Zee/OneUp 1x drivetrain.
  • 17 13
 @OneTrustMan: no, just that Shimano works better at much lower price, has better finish quality and is more durable. Just that. I brought up only valid physically testable points that many here seem to acknowledge. The difference is so tangible that one can actually talk a lot about it, not just nick pick. The rest of what you wrote, well you can take it with your psychologist but it was a good read Big Grin
  • 4 0
 @zyoungson: I had the same experience... x9 10 speed was quite nice, GX 10 speed was garbage! I decided to try Shimano after that and I won’t be going back. I am now running an XT 11 speed with an XTR shifter, perfection.
  • 3 0
 @Konyp: yup, I bought the Eagle once, it sucked, so I run Shimano 12sp in all my vines. It’s kinda sad cuz SRAM worked fine in 10sp and 11sp.

Shimano makes good stuff, no complaints at all.
  • 11 0
 Anyone tried Box components 9 speed system. I have it and I am really impressed. Steel drive train with a beefy chain and the gear range you need. Strong , reasonably light, and cheap. Seems you can have all three..
  • 4 6
 I've had/runned NX cassette, with GX and XX1 shifters, all of them being 12spd; and, for a week now, I have the new XT12. Let me tell you, I am not impressed. GX lacks the rifle bolt action of the XTR, yes, but it is much smoother and more precise than the new XT12. As far as gearing goes, xx1/x01 shifter, gx derailleur and cassette or XTR with XTR and xt cassette.
The new full XT12 set-up tries to emulate the XTR but, in the end it feels kind of mushy; the gears are snapped like with the XTR but it is not as precise; GX is more controlled and more precise, even though that snappier feeling does not exists; and, for the record, full xx1 never skipped a beat..never!, it requires a different approach and I don't think I'd put one on an enduro bike...in fact, I would not put any top of the line drivetrain on an enduro bike, as it is pointless - race bikes need only geometry, high end suspenssion, brakes and tires, nothing more - .
As for the XTR12, I tested one and it was a reminder of my XTR11 but with 12 gears instead of 11..bam-bam though gears, no holding back and no remorse for the drivetrain; the XT12 was a letdown though.
  • 7 0
 @Germanmike: Does anyone actually have the Microshift Advent X available for purchase?
  • 5 9
flag avg-roadie (May 19, 2020 at 7:15) (Below Threshold)
 @WAKIdesigns: but everyone already bought SRAM because Shimano was late to the game, had production issues, and now just released budget 12 speed. SRAM did that over a year ago... and nx/gx is as good or smoother than deore
  • 5 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I am hoping Shimano will make an 11 sp cassette 10-42 range microspline in a xtr/XT level.
  • 7 2
 The high end stuff is the billboard, the workhorse level stuff is where Shimano makes their money. Nearly all half decent commuter bikes I see here run Shimano hubs. Internal gearbox hubs (Nexus or Alfine) and dynamo hubs. That's loads of them. Sturmey Archer/Sunrace used to be king there but they lost it. Sachs used to have a good piece of the pie but when SRAM slapped their name on it they lost it too. Shimano is massive and has their parts spec'd on nearly all bikes. Commuter, trekking, kids. Tektro (TRP) brakes are typically found on bikes intended to be even cheaper and as such don't even carry the brand name that proudly. So basically Shimano dominates the piece of the market where the money/quantity is. This is what allows them to invest in efficient (and in my mind technically superior) mass production methods like drop forging. And this is what allows them to utilize those same efficient methods for niche products (which frankly, the Zee, Saint, XT and XTR groupsets really are). Basically, it is because Shimano already caters for (or even dominates) the mass market (outside our mtb bubble) that they can be more efficient in the niche market too. A brand that wants to beat them in the high end market needs to collect their funds in a more lucrative business. I doubt Tektro can do that. Geared rear hubs and hub dynamos are expensive so these make Shimano good money. Tektro may sell loads of U-brakes and V-brakes but it just won't make them the same kind of money to invest in a top end (niche) drivetrain that could beat Shimano. Maybe if they hook up with Suntour. If Shimano hooks up with Suntour however, that'd be absolute world domination. Not sure whether they're already grounded by Marfzoccxi though.
  • 5 0
 @avg-roadie: Fair enough but isn't that Shimano's MO? They don't usually rush to be the first but rather wait till everything is dialed before release. This is the general philosophy of most Japanese manufacturing, thoroughly thought out and constant improvement.
  • 5 3
 @jaame: Thats my exact experience with XT 12s. Shimano is now overrated.
  • 4 1
 @YanDoroshenko: If Sram had spent another 3+ years in the design phase I am sure it could have been a little better? Most were happy to have Sram when Shimano was still 11speed (most, not all). Late to the party is late to the party, don't matter how much time you spent on your makeup.
  • 1 4
 It’s because Shimano has all the patents! It’s not that they don’t know how to creat good drivetrains it’s just that they can’t.... which sucks because since they hold all the patents they could jack up the prices and there’s nothing we could do except boycott. It’s not the mtb bike manufacturers that are extremely expensive! It’s the components that are expensive......
  • 2 0
 @zyoungson: I had 11 speed X1 (they no longer make that - I guess it was considered the predecessor to GX?), and I was constantly messing with it to keep it shifting well. When my derailleur died, I replaced it with 11sp SLX, because it was a heck of a lot less expensive - and found it to be nicer shifting (that's a personal preference thing, some people prefer the feel of SRAM, other the feel of Shimano). But what really got me was that this much cheaper drive train ended up requiring hardly any adjustment and fiddling.

My new bike came with 12 speed SX - and it's hot flaming garbage. The shifting is imprecise and halting, I'm constantly adjusting stuff. I initially figured I'd wait until the cassette was worn to switch driver bodies to Microspline and go 12sp Deore - but I'm sorely tempted not to wait that long because it just annoys the hell out of me every time I ride it.
  • 3 0
 @caveley:
I have had a Box 9 speed on my adventure tandem for about a month. I have the Box 1 shifter, the Box 2 derailleur and the Box 2 cassette. The shifting effort is higher than the GX Eagle it replaced, but the SRAM would miss gears a lot. The Box 9 speed has never missed a shift. Important on a trail with 450 lbs of people and stuff on a bike.

Box calls their Prime 1 unibody, but it doesn't look like one in their pictures. It looks like it is two pieces. Still, 300 grams saved is a lot for a bike that is supposed to pack into two suit cases and fly.
  • 3 8
flag Uchwmdr (May 19, 2020 at 8:27) (Below Threshold)
 @fullfacemike: 1.marketing
2.stupid people who buy sram
  • 1 0
 The rear Derailleur would be cheaper and lighter if they remove the stupid , gimmicky Hall lock useless feature.
  • 2 1
 No, it won't happen. People aren't willing to invest in a company (like TRP here) that is just behind the 8 ball so to speak. That lack of funding will further hamper development dollars. No small company will come out with better refinement or manufacturing than Shimano or SRAM. There would have to be an actual change in the process, or how shifting is done. It isn't too bad, it is consumer choice. If everyone wanted competition, then they would buy from the small guy and raise them up, with performance sacrifices. But, that's not what happens. You buy the stuff you think works the best, right now.
  • 1 1
 Campagnolo on road it is better than shimano. At least the way shifters are set up. More intuitive. On Mtb, sram will never get close to shimano. That said it is adequate for most.
  • 1 2
 @zyoungson: 10 speed gx is literally the same as x7/x9 just rebranded.
  • 2 0
 @sutter2k: No one stocks it, but most LBS can order it through one or more of their distributors. I run the Advent 9 speed and every shop I have tried to order through could do it no problem. In normal times the parts usually arrived in 2 days.
  • 1 0
 @RoadStain: the last two generations of record/super record are horseshit - what exactly have you been drinking?
  • 2 0
 @iamamodel: been running a mix of gx and x1 11spd for over two years now.. while my brothers curse as their fancy eagle derailleurs flail like meat trees in a hail storm, I just ride. I just ride.
  • 2 6
flag WAKIdesigns (May 19, 2020 at 9:14) (Below Threshold)
 @onemind123: my take on it is buy 12sp 10-51 xtr and cut off the biggest cog, obstruct the shifter from using last gear... 10-46 11sp and better chainline than actual 11sp
  • 4 8
flag WAKIdesigns (May 19, 2020 at 9:17) (Below Threshold)
 @SoddenDeath: I do like just riding and just pedalling, but with sram cassettes I need to be carefully pressing on pedals when shifting like I’m back in 2001 with Altus group on my rigid Diamond Back.
  • 4 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm a Shimano fan through and through, but I have to say my 11spd SRAM MTB setup hasn't let me down yet... I know, crazy stuff.
  • 3 0
 @Germanmike: hell ya advent x ftw!
  • 2 0
 @sutter2k: in the usa universal cycles and worldwide. Have the shifters and derailleurs everyone is sold out of casettes. If you have a lbs that goes thru quality they should have them
  • 4 0
 Shimano missed the boat not buying Marzocchi, would be great if they could offer the OEM desks that Sram do
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Would be cool if Shimano actually released the new 11sp groupset they were planning to do (with 12sp spacing so that the flanges could be moved out a little). Maybe they will eventually now that with the lower end groupsets they're making larger quantities so more variations won't hurt as much. That said, now that the new Deore got the current 11sp spacing it probably won't materialize as I can imagine it is too easy to mix, match and mess up. Making something idiot proof is more important than ever in this age of social media.
  • 2 0
 @SoddenDeath: impossible. As soon as the new Deore came out I promptly threw away all of my Sram components. I also had a trash xtr 11s drivetrain also. Non of which was a match to the new Deore 12 speed. I honestly don’t know how I ever rode without Deore 12 speed.
  • 6 4
 @WAKIdesigns: there goes the noisy minority of pinkbikers chatting shit on the internet about something they know nothing about meanwhile in the real world sram absolutely dominate from gears to brakes, seat posts to suspension forks while shimano are heavily discounted on the internet battling it out with tektro and e13 for a tiny scraps of the aftermarket industry but thanks for that though. I’ve had a shit day and your sense of humour always brightens my life. Wink
  • 2 3
 @jaame: I’ve been saying for ages now the SLX is garbage. This is what happens to every single mech if you actually use it. They’re cheap. They ever bend from their own weight or the pivots go floppy because of how low quality the materials are. XT is much better but it’s got the same clutch and that’s what always goes on them first.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Jesus Waki that is not a horrific idea if it would work.

Adjusting the limit screws could possibly deal with the 11 clicks.

As I run 650b I do not need a great big gear bigger then a 42 for what I ride. I would be curious how much rotating mass would be removed getting rid of that 51 tooth.

If anyone has a knackered xtr cassette I would purchase it just to dissect it for the cause.
  • 1 0
 I've been really liking the BOX 1 wide range 11 - positive click like sram, quiet like shimano, seems as good as any other and available inexpensive online.
  • 3 0
 LOL Sram gets no love besides AXS. Yet it's spec'd on the majority of bikes. They must be offering bike manufacturers some deep discounts.
  • 1 0
 @jeredbogli: does it shift under load like Shimano now does?
  • 4 0
 @nmilot92: I’m sure manufacturers get some steep discounts for purchasing SRAM drivetrains and brakes with RockShox suspension.
  • 1 0
 @pacificnorthwet: don't forget the droppers as well
  • 2 0
 Box Components has a pretty awesome alternative in their 9 speed. I’ve had their push push shifter and derailleur before and it was flawless with an 11spd 9-46 cassette from eThirteen. Now they have their own cassette and I think to the people who value simplicity prime 9 is going to be an excellent choice.
  • 1 0
 @vinay: Well, if you haven't experienced TRP's recent disc brakes this thesis makes more sense. I run TRP disc brakes on all my bike (fat, gravel/road, mountain) and quite frankly they are so good I wouldn't go back to SRAM/Shimano. The TRP drivetrain would appeal to me because of the good experience the their brakes. Its a shame its a little bit more than I want to pay.
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: you don't hear much about it but my slx has been much worse than previous generation 11s slx or xt.

I don't know what to do now. I would give the 9 is fine a go to be honest. It's a bit pricey though.
  • 1 0
 @CycleKrieg: Yeah, I trust their high end stuff is good. I just meant to say to be able to deliver high end stuff at Shimano kinda prices (which this thread seemed to be about), they need to produce high quantities for a big market that actually makes good money. Shimano snatched a good bit of the e-bike (utility bike) market with motors and OEM brakes, they've got the geared hubs and hub dynamos, the large quantity stuff that actually pays. I know Tektro typically from simple U brakes on BMX bikes and low end V-brakes on the cheaper bikes. And then TRP on the high end stuff. It must surely be worth the money but they also need to make the money from the actual products sold. For Shimano, the high end stuff is also their billboard. They retrieve the invested development money not just from the actual XTR stuff sold, but probably will make most from when the tech has trickled down in the lower end groupsets which are sold in massive quantities. TRP/Tektro currently doesn't have that.
  • 3 0
 @iamamodel: This was also said in 1989, 1999, 2008 and 2015. Yet, here we are riding cassettes with more cogs.
  • 3 0
 @zyoungson: I'm not sure why these aren't catching on moreso! My next bike will have a gearbox. Derailleurs are just silly to still be utilized in mountain biking.
  • 4 0
 @backinbike: They should go back to ten, if not even less.
Getting these 12 speed drivetrains to run smoothly after a good dose of abuse is pretty damn finnicky.
  • 1 0
 @catweasel: Shimano should, but then Marzocchi might lose all the Fox technology.
  • 3 1
 @benbenbeast: true that. 15mm axles, would not want to lose those. And DBC.
  • 2 1
 @ismasan: this is probably the closest to the truth. OEM would pay nowhere near retail for their drivetrains, and when you add on the savings from buying rockshox in bulk it probably explains why more than 3/4 of the builds are SRAM and fox supension is an upgrade.
  • 4 0
 @Konyp: I just don't get the preference for 12 spd vs. wider range 11. The only person who cares about the actual number of gears play guitar in spinal tap.
  • 1 0
 Shimano fanboy 9000 er 9100. Always remember seeing their fishing reels as a child, and being like, "damn that's the best shiz I've ever seen!".
  • 1 0
 @Kramz: That is the same reason I did not want to ride Shimano, currently, I wont ride Shimano for religious reasons....but, I was a sinner and got XTR brakes and pedals.
  • 1 1
 @plyawn: The packaging alone that my XX1 stuff came in cost me I bet $100. MFG do not get the same packaging....I threw it away (being as it is glossy it goes into the normal trash).
  • 1 0
 If they can come up with an option that lasts way longer, or shifts way better or is way cheaper (yeah right) it would seem like a valid alternative. So far though, none of the small companies seems to offer any of the above when compared to shimano.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Naw, Its be Fixie DH bikes.
  • 2 0
 @caveley: im so ready to ditch my GX for P9.
  • 3 5
 3 Points taken away from this "discussion"

1. Yes it's expensive, but it's not surprising... A smaller company comes out with a new "proto" derailleur, with features/setup-ta-bility, we haven't seen before. It's like when the gto came out back in the day. Yes it was a car, but a car the pushed the envelope of what a production sedan could do. Same story here, period.

2. 95% of actual mtbers agree, anything but the most top end from Sram is junk, except they're brakes and suspension, which are pretty much the industry standard, when it comes to price vs quality vs performance.

3. For a change, 75% of what Waki said is actually true... the other 25%, debateable, but not troll level shirt.
Come on Waki, what happened to you!?… Your are resident troll 'guru, you've let us all down.
I hope I didn't break you, for taking you on with logic, and common sense.
Please don't let that be the case! I don't feel it's time for me to take the mantle... Ooooo' That should get your blood boiling. YOU. ARE. REPLACEABLE.
Big Grin
  • 1 1
 @wcr: you are but a spore being blown to and fro by hot gasses from Waki’s mushroom tip
  • 2 0
 @zyoungson: i had to replace 2 sunrace cassettes on warranty. they were terrible for shifting. really bad tolerances with different gaps between each cog.
  • 1 0
 @sunringlerider: maybe I'm just lucky? I'm talking about a sample size of 2 here (the other being a friend riding x1 11)
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Ten speed slx was great, 11 was similar but needed more finger power to make a shift yuck, I have brand new full Xtr 10 speed now haha, 12 speed slx must be different and not similar to XT anymore
  • 2 0
 @Frizz87: yeah you're not the only one to say that!
  • 3 0
 This discussion has inspired me to check out the Box One Prime Nine. I made it as far as the cassette. $369. Out of stock.

Now if I could look on CRC or Bike Inn, and see the whole setup for £200, I would probably do it. Again it's a case of - it's interesting, but too expensive to be interesting enough to take a punt, knowing that on balance of probablitilty it's going to be worse than an XT 12 speed setup.

As I see it, another example of the 2C tyre for 3C money, because it's different.

I'll tell you a company that gets it. Hope. They make quite high end kit in the UK that works really well, and they sell it for not totally ridiculous prices. Other small players should take note.
  • 1 0
 Considering the number of GX derailleurs on the planet, seems an odd marketing decision to put a "G" on the rear mech???
  • 2 1
 @zyoungson: this. The best shifting I personally had was with a 9 speed X9 shifter. No play or slop, minimal free stroke, light, positive and direct. Reliability has always been a bit better with Shimano though.
However, looking at the 12 speed groupsets, I would never pay even street prices for SRAM, since the lowest acceptable level for me is GX, which is worse than SLX and as expensive as XT.
  • 3 3
 @markar: slx has only ever been similar to XT fresh out of the box. Doesn’t take long for the pivots to go floppy or you bend the cage. Looking at new stuff it doesn’t seem like they’ve improved the quality at all. Same cheap tat only with 12 speeds. I’m sticking with GX / X0. Way better quality, shifts way better and can take an absolute beating. Absolutely no point buying two or three XT mech for one GX and getting an inferior product to show for it.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: check out Microshift?
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I my experience of having one of each XT 8000 and SLX 7000, there isn't much functional difference in the mechanism even after two years. The shifter is night and day different though. SLX is plastic junk.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: slx shifters are just nasty and xt shifters have a load of resistance from the mechanism that releases the gear when you push the thumb shifter instead of when when you let go like most other shifters. Wouldn’t be nice if the built a simpler shifter without the pointless gimmicks with a light shift like the slx but with the feel of XT.
I’ve never had much luck with SLX / Zee mechs I used to go through so many and everyone I know who hasn’t moved over to sram are still having the same issues I had back then.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: aside of how fantastic value SLX and ZEE cranksets are (for their own reasons), both groups are not worth a penny over Deore (ok Zee has short cage version and is a good idea over Saint for DH bikes). Xt shifters having load of resistance? weird, have 10 and 11sp, no issues other than how plasticky they got. XTR has always been smoothest. SLX/Zee/Deore are hard to push, my 6yr old can feel the pain, I'll give him my 10sp SRAM soon. SRAMs do work a bit smoother, X01 is great, but GX is as vague as X7 used to be, NX is X5 like.
  • 2 0
 @SoddenDeath: must be luck. Sram is obviously junk, high end Shimano in for Dentist and lawyers, maybe dirty politicians too. Deore for the people.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns:

Dude way too many drivetrains there. Easy fix. Throw all in trash. Buy Deore 12 speed, the Pinkbike gods will rejoice.
  • 2 0
 @sunringlerider: Most optimal for XC to superenduro: SLX cranks, XT rear mech, XTR shifter and cassette. If you want to save cash, Deore cranks, rear mech, XT shifter and keep XTR cassette.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
Waki as much as you are on here. I did not know you were a dentist. XTR shifter? You’re crazy.
The obvious and only choice is Deore on every aspect of the bike. I hope they make Deore suspension.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: there’s a load of resistance in shimano’s xt and XTR shifters because of all the pointless features they insist on still including mainly the mechanism that drops a gear when you push the shifter not when you release it like most shifters. Load of drag in the clutch also hence why I used to take them off when using a chain guide. Feels like your riding dirty cables.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: GX is the new X9. NX is the new X7. SLX cranks are decent. Chainrings aren’t the best though. You’l still probably need a top guide to get the most out of it but for what you pay for them, you can’t complain.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: erm, I’d need you to make me a test with a dyno, to determine whether there’s any bigger drag on XT and especially on XTR which is super light to engage. Dropping few gears at once for XT and XTR (and 10sp Saint) is fantastic for me ridong in undulating terrain where shifting speed is very important. On last tallest gears both Shim and Sram need more force.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I used Shimano steel SLX NW 32 whole year - zero chains dropped. Would totally appreciate less backpedalling chain drops. Sram cassettes are less prone to this but If I switch to XTR 12sp I won't use the biggest cog anyways so the problem should disappear or at least be comparable ot SRAM
  • 1 0
 @jaame: I got the box2 11 speed on clearance but had to replace the shifter. It failed almost immediately. Went with box1, it's got a lot more resistance than shimano or sram but the price was still under 200 after buying another shifter.
  • 1 0
 @fruitsd79: I was having a look today. Box one looks like XT quality but its more expensive than XTR. That's the one I would go for. The other cassettes look a bit to agricultural. As it stands, I doubt I will ever try until I see a 50% sale.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: same here. full box 2 group was 140 delivered (crazy sale price) , then box 1 shifter another 37 on Amazon.
  • 1 0
 @fruitsd79: oh nice. There you go. At those prices I would probably take a punt. How are you finding it?
  • 3 0
 I just bought a bike with full XTR. I have been on a mix of Sram 12 speed for a while now (E29 with GX shifters, XO1 cassette, Code brakes).

My short review:

Both are great. Anyone who thinks that one is magically way better than the other is delusional. Just buy whichever set up you like better and enjoy.

I like the shifter better on the Sram, but the Shimano feels slightly smoother. But the "under power" shifting is no better or worse on either. Maybe I haven't found an instance where I could really test it, but I didn't find the Shimano to shift much better, if at all, than the Sram. The double click is nice, but the better ergonomics on Sram cancels it out.

They both felt completely equal in performance. Some aspects being slightly better on one vs the other. End of the day, I am keeping the groups I already have, Sram and Shimano, they both work great. I WOULD say that if the cassette life sucks on the Shimano, I might change my mind. But I have an XTR hub and I don't want to swap hubs just so I can put a different cassette on, so the Shimano cassette would have to REALLY suck, and I doubt that will be the case.

I am very satisfied with Shimano and Sram 1x12.
  • 2 1
 @JSTootell: except I bought 11sp XX1 cassette to save weight and shifting under power was a disaster, I felt it right away because chain was making niises and I thiught I setup the rear mech wrong. I thought, oh maybe I need Sram chian but then I rode a quite brand new Trek Slash with 12sp XX1 and shifting under power was a disaster. Yes disaster. Because when something costing 300+$ shifts like Sun-race for 80$ - it’s a disaster. Difference in shifting under power is so big it is actually worth writing about, off course you are entitled to your opinion, like people claiming they never had an issue with creaking Fox 36 steerer crown interface or inconsistent bite on shimano brakes, some never cracked an Enve rim. Me for instance never really had issues with RS Reverbs. But huge part population does have these issues with certain products. So Yes I respect your opinion and I am happy for you not experiencing these widely known, obvious short comings of certain products.
  • 2 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I had a creaking 36 and wanky xt brakes. I tried my friend's top spec eagle and I thought wow... The shifting is so light, but you can only shift one gear at a time?
  • 2 0
 @fullfacemike: by holding online sellers to MSRP, they've incentivized 'independent' bicycle dealers to promote their stuff. Plus, SRAM's marketing is superior. Eagle iconography has been very successful in both USA and Germany. Going after Shimano in OEM, IBD, and marketing has proven very effective.
  • 2 2
 @WAKIdesigns: You never need to shift down twice at once and shimano 10/11 speed cassettes could barely handle one aggressive downshift let alone two. I only ever did it by accident and it never ended well. You can shift gears way quicker with x0 mainly due to how light the shifter action is and the superior cassette that can handle smashing down gears mid sprint.

Yeah a years not a long time I’ve got two alloy x sync chainrings that are over three years old that still haven’t worn through the coating and have never dropped a chain. Typical SLX, you have to buy three when you could just spend that little bit extra and get something that will last three times as long.
  • 2 3
 @thenotoriousmic: I hope you're getting paid to spout this b.s.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: it's ok. The shimano 2x9 speed it replaced was smoother ( even after 4 seasons) but the range was just not enough for 1x.
Even with 28 up front.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: So if haven't had good luck with slx, then just buy the deore shifter/derailleur, and microshift cassette, and xt chain...
That's what i'm planning on doing, not for better quality/shifting, but for weight loss. I've already upgraded the pullies to xt's, that made a big-tiny difference. Better quality, lighter, and smoother operation over deore. Heck, if your bending cages all the time, then just pick up a couple replacement set's off ebay. Just looked, brand new ones from reputable, American bikes shops, to be had for under $30 bucks a set (plus S&H). That's the next upgrade going into my drivetrain... I basically have the simple reliability/toughness of the deore, and the weight savings/tech of the xt, best of both world's. If your constantly breaking/bending derailleurs, then it's not the kits fault... It's you abusing the sh** out of the thing, I bet it's like everything you own. Flease a brand new $60,000 truck/car, drive like no tomorrow, just when the warrantee expires, you dump the thing, and start the vicus cycle all over again. Just like 80% of the people out there, broker then a dog's hind leg. If you spending 5 to 10 thousand dollars on a bike, then you do the best job you can to take care of it, like your home. If a guy goes through windows/doors as fast as you are, then there's something wrong with the homeowner, not the home.
Big Grin
And I don't know where your getting your downshifting problems from, sounds like not correctly shifting/pedalling, or not maintaining/setting it up. There is a little learning curve with shimano, I found that out pretty. But once you get it, it's a breeze to work the drivetrain, very intuitive to use. I grant you, shifting needs a bit of force to work it, but I really prefer that anyway, feels nice and solid, with secure shift/clicks. It's a beefy, no-nonsense drivetrain, for us working men. I can't afford, or want to spend 150 bucks a pop for derailleurs, rather go with cheap, well made components, that ya, may not be as good as your dentist XO's, but there plenty awesome enough enough to get the job done. And save a pile of cash too boot... so I can save up for part's that I really want, like a nice quality wheelset upgrade Smile .
Hey it's awesome that your having great luck with Sram. If you like what you got, then stick with it. But that's the exception, not the rule. Like a good 90% have found out, anything other then the top-of-the-line is crap.
  • 2 0
 @jaame:
You can upshift 5 gears at once, but only downshift one at the time.
Not a problem for me, because the click is so light that you cam make multiply downshift in no time.
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: I know! I had a go on it and that was my first thought, it will only shift up one at a time. The action was nice though.
Unlike the notorious mic, I shift in doubles all the time. Probably more often than singles to be honest. And also unlike the notorious mic, I don't suspect myself to be on the SRAM payroll.

Micky Smalls, are you working for SRAM or the importer? It seems unlikely to me that someone would be so one sided in their SRAM/Shimano affiliation. I can see the good and bad in both but it seems you can't, or are choosing not to.
  • 2 0
 @fullfacemike: Sram is over Shimano since they released XD freehub body & 11 speed almost 10 years ago. Shimano has not taken any advantage, they are only trying to keep updated but nothing new on their catalogue. I have seen the m9100 rear derailleur and it sucks, very low quality cage in my opinion.
  • 2 0
 @wcr: I still use shimano on some of my bikes and sons bike. Actually just had to fit a new slx calliper to his bike today after his pissed mineral oil over his rear rotor during lockdown. Cost £30. It’s cheap and does the job but it doesn’t work as well as my sram stuff or last as long but it’s more expensive. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Fair points Smile
  • 3 2
 @thenotoriousmic: the biggest downside of Sram is the cassette, that in terms of shifting, price, and the durability. Once you use Sram shifter/ rear mech with Shimano cassette you are already far ahead of full Sram setup. But the details remain. Like gigantic rear mech hanging out that is quite fragile for slight inaccuracies
  • 2 1
 @JSTootell:
Exactly my experience.The difference between Sram and Shimano is more about feel than actual performance.
You can't go wrong with either.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: come off it. You’re never going to match the performance of a precision milled cassette with a cheap stamped metal cassette that gouges itself into your freehub body and knocks itself out of alignment. Do you need to watch the video again? Hold your horses, I’ll go and find it.
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns: you can literally watch it shift so much better. Look how much quicker it shifts and look at the chain bounce. So much smoother but then again look at the difference in quality between the two cassettes. Ones built to a much higher standard, in fairness to shimano they’re actually managed to get 1950’s technology to work really well but still you get what you pay for.

youtu.be/kem5Rk863WA
  • 1 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:
That's rich coming from someone like you.
I mean look at your name
  • 2 1
 @thenotoriousmic: except what does it matter if it is stamped or precision milled or made of graphene when chain guiding channels are poor at guiding the chain?
  • 2 0
 @WakisNo1Fan: I have trouble figuring out if this is an ironic account run by Waki, an attempt at sarcasm by one of his haters or if Waki indeed has a genuine psychofan.
Either way considerable work has gone into this. Congrats, I guess.
  • 1 0
 @Konyp: The way and the pattern in which Waki and his pseudo fanboi writes comments seem to me that indeed both accounts belong to the very same person.

If true, than it's kind of sad that he can only find agreement with himself.
His next account will be WakiNPC2
Sram man bad, Sram man bad Reeeeeee
  • 3 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
Hold the phone. The cassette is the downfall? Durability? For real? I have a hard time following your spout offs. But I will just assume that you have ridden high end Sram? Currently I have over 3,500 miles on a XO1 eagle cassette. It nuts what keeping your drivetrain clean will do for you. Watching you all argue over which cheap ass group is better is quite hilarious. So carry on. And for the love of god, did you see Shimano came out the Deore 12 Speed. Holy shit balls. I can’t believe the came out with such a great product at such an amazing price.
  • 3 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:

Dude I just cant let good enough lay. It’s like an all you can eat pizza buffet at CiCi’s, just keeping coming for more, even though it gives you exploding diarrhea. After all I am a fat ass murrican.
  • 1 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:
No. Wakis comments are like explosive diarrhea.
It's shit all over the place.

#SramManBadSramManBad
  • 3 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:

Ok, maybe that was harsh. Should I have compared discussion with Waki to slamming your dick in a door? Totally pointless and painful?
  • 3 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:

Wow, man. I know people from different countries have different fetish’s but poop on the face? That’s weird.
  • 1 0
 @WakisNo1Fan: you’ve obviously never heard of the “Indiana Hot Pocket”. #lookitup. #cannotbeunseen
  • 1 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:
I stand corrected.

#hotpockets
  • 3 1
 That video was really good. I always thought Sram shifting was worse than Shimano but that proves that when they are clean at least, Sram is better. It should be at that price, but the price doesn't change the facts!
  • 1 0
 @WakisNo1Fan:

I was worried when they said “video” that they found a video of the IN Hotpocket. Wheew that was a close one.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Old news mate. They used to be but not anymore.
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: once again with that precission machined excellence and stamped prehistoric cassettes yadda yadda?
Sounds like you can't tell what's good or bad, so you settle for expensive, or complex, really.
  • 1 0
 @ismasan: what for knowing there’s a limit to what you can achieve with a sheet of metal and a hydraulic press? Haha ok.
  • 1 0
 @ismasan: I think that's the riff I've been getting too... And from all these broke sram fan boys, you all go sip your woke koolaid.
Me for one, i'd rather to listen to some Rush, have a few beers, and love on me deore to the grave Big Grin .
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: Where have you been for the last 100 years?!
Forged, machined, stamped, yadda yadda… It all comes down to how well things are designed/made.
And I have to call the bs out on Sram vs Shimano shifting, it's that, bs Big Grin .
My previous gen deore is bulletproof, shifts under heavy loads either way...
Like @jaame said, you can have any drivetrain, any price point, if you don't maintain and look after it, it's give you problems/fail in lickety split.
I'll say it, and say it always... Shimano's chain retention system is practically perfect, and who cares if it utilizes "old" tech, according to "modern" sram… If it's new, and can't work well, then who cares how fancy it was made. Hmpf.
  • 1 1
 @OneTrustMan: No. You all don't like it... For once, Waki is absolutely right, sram sucks when it's anything other then brand spanking new, or dentist parts. Shimano goes and goes and goes, can't say that for over priced shirt sram Big Grin .
Why do you think it's called sram butter Wink ...
  • 1 1
 @jaame: the video doesn’t show shifting under power. If you made video with Suntour you’d have same results
  • 1 0
 I don't have any particular affiliation in this. I use Shimano because I can justify the cost and I like the shifter better, on balance of opinion the GX mech (which is the best I could afford) isn't as good as the Shimano XT I usually use. I have dropped to SLX to try it this time and have not been impressed so I will be going back to XT.

THe SRAM cassette is a piece that I am interested in though. It's light and it looks very nice - the top end one does anyway. It looks better than any other cassette on the market. It jollly well should at £400 or whatever ridiculous amount it costs.

THat said, watching that video, which is what looks like a brand new SRAM setup against a used XTR setup.... it is pretty clear the upshifts are smoother on the SRAM cassette. I'm never going to buy one, but I can still appreciate the engineering and shifting quality.
  • 1 1
 @jaame: shifting quality is perceived, up to personal taste. Some like it crisp and metallic, some like it smooth. like chunchy vs smooth peanut butter. You just CAN'T say one is better.

@thenotoriusmic: there's a limit in what you can achieve with stamping vs machining, yes, for that reason nice stems are machined after forging to remove extra material, for example. Now, I can't see how that is relevant for a cassette that's gonna be ground though mud and just trashed and disposed. Is it to make it feel crisp? Cause that's a matter of taste dude.

Do you know Hambini? What's your opinion on the fact that someone actually qualified constantly bashes sram's engineering and manufacturing quslity, while prising shimano's? Oh, that must apply to road only eh
  • 1 0
 @wcr: I'm not a brand boi like you so I don't care if I get Shimano, or Sram.
Both work fine for me.
I use a mixed 11 speed drivedrain with GX chain, trigger, NX der and a XX1 cassette on my hardtail.

That thing shift freaking smooth under power. I can climb, standing up, smashing my pedals and it shifts so smooth with out any effort that most of the time I can barely feel it. Same with my full X01 Eagle.
So the agrument that Sram shifts bad under power is utterly delusional BS by Shimano brand bois. Maybe you should learn how to adjust your Sram drivetrains properly.

My most ridden bike uses a Deore 10 speed.
A really good drivetrain for the money, but not even close to how good my Sram feels.

And unlike most of you guys here I'm more than willing to try out new stuff. It's pretty much settlet that I will give the new XT a try.
I know that it won't be a magical bazzillion, gorrillian, opinion bubbillion times better, than my X01, but just the same as good with a different feeling. And that's totally fine.
  • 1 0
 @jaame:
Try to hunt for used parts in very good conditions.
Got my first almost new XX1 cassette for 100€
My full XX1, except cranks for 220€.
And a few days ago another XX1 cassette in very good shape for only 70€.

Bying new makes zero sense to me if I can get them so cheap.
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: I have been looking out for second hand parts actually. I wouldn't buy a used road bike cassette because it could be worn out by those huge mileages but MTBs don't tend to cover as much distance, and there is a lot of freewheeling on the downhills.

Thoughts on that?
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Their are a lot of people that switch between brands, so getting good deals is easy.
Look at the teeth, especially the alloy cog.
The steels cogs can takes 1000s of miles without a sweat.
I like the non black highend cassettes, because you can clearly see the teeth.

Also look how crediable the seller is.
I buy my parts on Ebay Kleinanzeigen.
It's a german side, but you can give it a look too.

Like this offer.
150€ for XX1 cassette in good shape with trigger and der. But it's 11 speed.
m.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/sram-schtgr-xx1-1x11-fach-zahnkranz-11-42-schaltwerk-trigger/1391567798-217-5597
  • 1 0
 @jaame: take a very close look at a pic of a brand new cassette (like pic on Sram site) and pay attention to width of the teeth vs space between. Also like @OneTrustMan says, the wear of anodizing is some sort of indicator and for that reason the priciest XX1 is an excellent choice. I bought a virtually unused XX1 11sp cassette for 100£ but Sweden is a bit different universe. Along with Norway Possibly best place in Europe for getting barely used luxurius items for half price or less.
  • 2 0
 @ismasan: Yeah I’m totally not interested in what a roadie has to say. One it’s a different sport with different requirements and no offence but they could have disk brakes 20 years ago but they turned their noses up at them and concluded that riding hills on carbon wheels with rim brakes was a better idea. So yeah I’m not taking anything those jokers say seriously. Besides shimano make the majority of their sales through Walmart bikes, fishing and road. Unlike mountain biking they might still care about roadies. Ether way I’m not interested. I’m only interested in what’s relevant to me and the kind of riding we do.

These deluded fan boys are hilarious. It’s like telling a religious fanatic that Jesus doesn’t exist or something, you can physically show them something and they’ll just cover their ears and continue to sprout the same old fake news from a by gone era when shimano was actually the best. Those days are gone and if you don’t start calling them out they’re just keep selling the same old tat they’re been selling us for the last ten years. Like I said it’s no coincidence that shimano’s in the bargain bin online and sram isn’t yet 75% of riders and I’m being generous with that are all riding sram. Seems I’m not the only one willing to pay extra for better quality. If the demand for shimano was there, it wouldn’t be so heavily discounted pretty much everywhere online and I’ll remind you when sram was releasing its first eagle cassettes this was shimano’s answer. They actually though this was not only acceptable to put out to the public as a serious alternative to a sram eagle cassette. Go home shimano, you’re drunk. Lol

singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/3/files/2017/05/Shimano_XT_Cassette_5.jpg
  • 2 0
 @thenotoriousmic: you remind me of that WakisNo1Fan character. You're so opinionated about SRAM Vs Shimano it can't be real!
  • 2 1
 @jaame: I am happy I gave life to another virtual life form. Next thing you know, bloke earns money by commenting on my comments. This is single most flattering thing That I have ever experienced, even more pathetic form of satisfaction than Emily Batty replying to my comments or Gee Atherton knowing who I am when meeting him. I wonder if I can get any lower. Oh wait, I can. Someone loathing me so much they are willing to believe I started self trolling account. Assumption of me being such a piece of crap is extremely liberating. It gives me absolutely nothing to live up to. Anything I do can only be better.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I thought that was your account. Are you saying its someone else's?
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic:
1. I hope you appreciate the irony of yourself calling fanboy to someone
2. That guy's video is not very empirical, let's say lol, and shifting feel is subjective.
3. Still waiting for the explanation on why CNC is better for an cassette aplication and not just 'a 24 karat toilet'.
4. God bless you! XD

Mind I'm using Sram at the moment cause it came with the bike and I'm happy with it, even tho I start dropping chains cause the clutch is going bad (I could tighten a shimano one) But buying it aftermarket? Not even drunk.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: heh yeah... I made a second account once long time ago, I was doing ridiculous counter arguments taken straight out of my bum, filled with pompous insults (like you are a fraud) at myself just to see whether I’d get mad props. I did so it stopped being fun after like 5 comments. I wrote something like: I know people who know you, you are working for the industry, pushing your agenda etc. - got 25+ props or something for something so too good to be true - it was depressing. But this time it is not me Smile
  • 1 0
 @jaame: To be fair. He is kind of right in calling those diehard fanboys religious fanatics. It really looks that way when you read all this delusional crap here on pinkbike over and over again. But two wrongs don't make it right.

The reality is that all modern drivetrains, even the cheaper ones from whatever brand work damn well.
We are pretty much blessed to life in a time were mtb tech is so freaking good that we can find time to nitpick over small details.
In real life when I ride with others, no one gives a damn what parts, frames, wheel sizes, or even ebikes others ride. We just want to have a good time.

You can find those petty fights mostly on online forums like here. Well it is what it is I guess.
  • 1 0
 @ismasan: I’m not a fan boy, I’m just well aware of the differences between the two as I run both on my bikes and have plenty of time to call out bullshit urban myths on the internet due to the current situation.

No shifting is not subjective. That’s fan boy talk for I know it’s not the best but I love it anyway. Watch the video and you can see the cassette rotation and you can see the sram cassette shifts faster and smoother and this is without weight going through the system. The differences are more apparent when your pedalling hard over rough ground.
Do I really need to explain why milling a cassette out of a solid piece of metal to the micron by Germans is superior to a bunch of stamped metal disks held together in a box with a zip tie which gouges itself into your freehub body? Ignorance is bliss it really is.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: is not the first time I ask you, and every time time you say 'do I really have to explain... german superiority... yadda yadda'. But you never actually explain, cause you can't.

Shimano and Sram feel different, and feel is a matter of taste. Not that you can't see that, you just don't want to.
  • 2 0
 @ismasan: sorry dude I thought you was playing ignorant. To make stamped components you literally just stick a sheet of metal under a hydraulic press to cut and shape the metal to whatever it is you’ve designed, it’s how they maded AK 47’s. It’s great when you want to mass produce something cheaply but you’re limited to what you can do with it and the materials you can use and the tolerances you can achieve. With CNC machines you can pretty much make whatever you want out of a block of high quality material but it’s slow and expensive and there’s a lot of waste and tooling overheads but you’re left with a vastly superior product. It’s low end vs high end manufacturing.
  • 3 2
 @thenotoriousmic: sorry you’re just talking shit. Who gives a crap if sram cassette is made by elves from unicorn jizz at full moon when it is more expensive and shifts worse under power? Now with next to nonweight saving? Their alloy cranksets are total shit. Where’s engineering finesse in them? Where’s the finesse with their plastic derailleurs? I wonder if they can make them any bigger? Oh wait, they can! They actually will make them bigger and more prone to rock strikes with their dumb direct mount. Sram offers slightly worse product at almost double the price. It’s hopeless.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns:
Man this fight is funny xD

To be fair. Shimano needs to use like 4 titanium cogs and 3 alloy cogs to get to same weight as a fully steel, 1 alloy cog Sram cassette. But that's fine since it works.

Sram alloy cranks are not the prettiest, but you can beat the shit out of them. They don't care. Same for their carbon cranks.
Well unless you are a fat bloke.
I have seen pictures of saint cranks snaped in half by 280 pounds guys, but they can destroy anything.

And talking about big derailleurs.
Have you seen the new 12 Shimano ders in person?
They are just as fat and bulky as Eagle.
I doubt that this will make a difference in terms of rock stikes.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Again you get what you pay for or we wouldn’t be spending the extra if we could just pick something better out of the bargain bin online. You understand supply and demand don’t you? You understand why shimano is always heavily discounted and sram rarely is. You’ve noticed that a good 3/4 of riders now use sram and 90% of completes in all bike shops come dressed head to toe in sram? It’s not a conspiracy dude. Shimano don’t care about mountain bikes anymore.
  • 4 0
 Guys. We get it. Some of you like SRAM. Some of you like Shimano. Neither of you will budge. LET IT GO.
  • 1 0
 I’ve never had a derailleur problem riding either brand but I rarely podium so who cares.
  • 3 0
 @thenotoriousmic: I think the pricing has something to do with SRAM controlling supply a lot more than Shimano. People don't sell Shimano cheap because no one wants it. It's because Shimano sells a lot of OEM stuff to people who order it for bikes that they never assemble, and Shimano does not haveany checks and balances on whether those groupsets are really going to be sold on completes or not. I think SRAM makes more of a thing out of controlling their supply because they want to maintain high prices in the OEM. It's a different business model. When I did business studies GCSE I remember there were two sides to supply and demand.

If demand is high, price will be high.

If supply is low, price will be high.

A surplus supply drives prices down. It doesn't matter what the commodity is. Oil, gold. Double the amount on the market and the price falls. That's what happens with Shimano. Multiple channels all supplying the same market at the same time.

SRAM on the other hand, obviously have tighter controls on their suppliers which helps them maintain their ridiculous prices.

Garbaruk make copycat SRAM cassettes for 40% less. I bet they use the same grade of metal and the same CNC machines. Ok they didn't have to design the cassettes so take €120,000 off the total amount they need to recoup to pay those three SRAM engineers their €40k salaries...

SRAM cassettes are overpriced whatever way you look at it. I really want one but I will never buy one.

The SRAM products I have been really happy with are the X9 9 speed shifter and all my rockshox forks. Monarch shocks, totally shite. I've never had a reverb. Guide RE brakes are definitely better than Shimano. SX cranks, heavy but solid. Eagle chainrings are really nice. Rear mechs are something I just wouldn't consider from Sram. You are literally the only person who thinks GX mechs are any good. I'm never going to buy one because everyone says they are plastic junk except you!

I would buy X0 cranks, but I would buy takeoffs because you can get them for £170. No way would I pay the £460 RRP or whatever it is. If I was paying that I'd buy XTR because they are made of metal and they look better.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: totally agree and good explanation. Just a small correction: prices are high when demand is greater than supply. It then doesn't matter whether supply is low and demand average, supply is average and demand high, etc. The bigger the difference between the two, the higher the prices. This happens because one can order people on the maximum prices they are willing to pay. If supply is low, one can base prices on the people willing to pay the highest prices. There will be relatively few people that will pay the high prices, but that doesn't matter because your supply is also limited. If you then want to sell more of your product, you exhausted the group of customers willing to pay a high price and you now have to lower prices to reach the next group. Etc.
The situation with SRAM and Shimano is a bit strange though, because the scenario described above only works for the market as a whole (incl. competitors). This indicated that the market they operate in isn't totally free and open. This is likely the OEM part of the market where package deals and strict enforcement of suppliers/buyer rules massively influence prices.
  • 1 0
 @jaame - SX cranks solid? Installed it in my DJ, Pedal insert failed within a month. We then installed helicoil and it failed 1h into the first ride. Somehow hasn’t happened for years on any SLX crankset at same price?
Sram used to have huge portion of OEM for a few years because they had 10-50 12sp cassettes. It ends there.

I’m done here.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: bikes have been dressed up in Sram because Sram had 10-50 12sp cassettes. You’ll see in a year. Also who cares what is the reason for sram not being discounted, it’s their problem.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: My Capra has SX cranks and there is no pedal insert. The arms are made of metal which is threaded. Very heavy but solid so far. I have heard of Sram carbon cranks pulling inserts out, but metal cranks don't usually have inserts. Also, if you look through the classified ads, there are as many Raceface Next and Next R cranks for sale that are purportedly warranty replacements, so I would say it probably has more to do with carbon around an aluminium skeleton, plus a big bloke, plus low weight targets, than it has to do with Sram per se.

I agree Shimano cranks are bulletproof and last for years. I have had a Hone crank which had a pedal insert, God knows why, and it came loose on the left side. I hammered it back in and it cracked the crank from the pedal hole right to the end.

Since then I've had a few Shimano cranks including Zee, two generations of XT, SLX 7000, and they were all absolutely rock solid. Sram cranks, the SX are my first bite at the cherry.

In my opinion, SRAM has a lot of OEM because of their product family deals. Everyone knows Fox is better quality than Rockshox. Everyone knows Shimano uses better quality materials than SRAM except for the very top tier of SRAM. You can argue about the shifting quality but you can't really aruge about the build quality with few exceptions. Holding a Rockshox fork and a Fox fork together, the quality is evident. The same can be said for cranks, even brakes. I am into the SRAM brakes I have now, but in terms of materials and build quality, Shimano is definitely better... but the SRAM brake obviously has a better design at the current time, because it actually does what it's supposed to do and Shimano's 2015- brakes don't always.

Cassettes yes, X-Dome cassettes are really special... but none of the others are.

Shifters, I think Shimano ones are better. Better design, better function but they are both OK and feel nice on the top levels.

SRAM had a wider gear range. The 1x idea was gold. They should have used it to put Shimano out of business but unfortunately they didn't make it as well as they perhaps could have. Then Shimano didn't buy Marzocchi which would have given them great long term competitive parity with the SRAM whole-bike-spec-family pricing structure thing.

When you look at cheap bikes, they all have suspension forks now. Your average customer looks at the bullet points on the shop floor. Suspension fork is one. It's obviously easier to sell a bike with a crappy suspension fork that adds 1.2kg to the weight of a bike, and then crappy gears that don't work properly and also add another 400g and have a shorter lifespan, than it is to sell a quality rigid bike with solid gears and brakes at a good weight. Sex sells. SRAM is sexy. Shimano is a middle aged Japanese man in a grey suit. He turns up to work day in day out. Even working bank holidays with no fuss if he is asked to. SRAM is more your highly strung artist. Great ideas but hardly dependable, especially after a night on the sauce and marching powder, when he doesn't get the right breakfast cereal that he ordered from his hired help.

One is never going to set the roof on fire. The other one is going to set the roof on fire, which could be good or bad depending on your viewpoint.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: haha. You guys are hilarious. Yeah everyone knows shimano better but we all ride sram because we secretly hate ourselves. Everyone knows fox is better quality yet we all ride rockshox for the same reason. Or maybe you might be wrong? Bored of making you jokers look stupid. You just stay in your ignorant little bubble buying cheap tat and talking rubbish on the internet. I suppose it’s easier than holding your hands up and admit if you’re wrong.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: One only has to hold a fox 36 in one hand, and a Lyrik in the other, and look at the finish, to know that Fox is higher quality. Better materials, better quality paint. Better quality adjusters. It's a fair bet that the internals are also made of better quality materials. I'm not talking about the design, just the materials. Creak creak creak is a bad design.

That said, I think the 2020 Yari works as well as my 2015 36 RC2.

Most people ride rockshox becase their bikes came with rockshox because rockshox offers the same performance for less money... especially when companies also spec sram gears, reverb posts etc. A lot of companies have Fox on their more expensive bikes, because it's better. That may or may not be in finish quality only.

I don't have a lot of experience with Sram, but I have solid years on Zee, XT M780 and M8000. Nothing to complain about with any of them except the M8000 brakes. The cassettes are a bit agricultural but they are also cheap. 11 speed XT cassette vs GX? Too close to call? Neither of them is exactly a desirable item. The X Dome cassettes are desirable, but so are a lot of other things that are absolutely ridiculously priced!

I wonder if someone else can chime in about how GX derailleurs are better than anything that Shimano makes. I want to believe you, and being in a minority of one doesn't necessarily make you wrong, but it's a hard sell. If you take the balance of all PB commentators' experience, you would certainly get the idea (as I have) that GX is pretty crap.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: fox is better but costs 20% more. RS can be tuned to Fox level or beyond by spending around 150-200€ on Luftkappe and reshimming. Bushing fit is crap on RS, so is CSU on Fox. Even there. For general public which does not shift under power, SRAM X01 is comparable to Shimano XTR but lower groups go south quickly. Sram should simply bring back X1 to match XT, while Shimano should fuse Deore and SLX. Sram can also get ride of X01 because I cannot tell a bit of difference other than color between X01 and XX1
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: What is this about bushing fit? I have noticed on my Yari, after I wash the bike and bounce it on the back wheel to make the water fall off, that the fork rattles like hell. I thought there was somthing wrong with the bushings the first time. It hasn't got any worse though, and the fork is really plush.
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 @jaame: @jaame: yeah that’s where you’re going wrong dude. Picking something up in a shop is not a through product review Wink . Performance wise there’s not whole lot of difference. Historically it’s always been fox shocks and rock shox forks but these days they’re both brilliant. Rockshox seems to have a slightly stiffer chassis and are less likely to creek but I’d be happy to ride ether. I’ve got a yari also, it’s a great fork more than enough for most riders me included. Mines just celebrated its second birthday still no creeks though I have had to send a pike back in that time for a new CSU.

I’m currently running XT, SLX, GX and XO1 cassettes on my bikes. The XO1 shifts significantly better than the rest and it’s had the most use by far. I posted this around a year ago it’s still working faultlessly after another year in the mud getting smashed off rocks. Ive been through so many shimano mechs over the years I’ve never had a single one come close to taking the beating this has. That £10-15 extra you pay for GX over XT has paid for itself twice over.

m.pinkbike.com/photo/16831016
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 @jaame: also I didn’t type ‘wink’ im not that kinda guy. It was a winky faced emoji.
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 @thenotoriousmic: I have owned both at the same time and held both in my own hands! I don't really visit shops because I never buy anything from shops except cables... I feel like I'm wasting their time - kind of like those people that only go to McDonald's to use the toilet.

I guess you got lucky with that GX mech because it seems like literally everyone else says they are rubbish. Unless they're all lying, that is.

Alas, I will never find out for myself. XT has never let me down. SLX has once, two weeks ago.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: I’ve got two other GX mechs after the success with that one and so far so good. You’ve got to take into to account who’s telling you GX mechs suck. There’s a epidemic of deluded shimano fanboys on the internet who talk in urban myths who think it’s still 2012 and this is coming from me, Im someone who used to take anything sram of my bike and replace with hope / shimano without even giving it a chance. Also need to take into account how much more sram components are out in the world compared to shimano due to their dominance in the OEM department. If you was actually to go into a bike shop you’d see a lot of GX mechs and not a lot of XT’s. It’s just the law of averages.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: if you went into a Land Rover dealer you'd see a lot more Evoques than Discoveries. It doesn't mean they're better.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: that mech is an 11 speed. I believe most complaints are about the 12 speed.
  • 1 0
 @Mac1987: fwiw, I found 11 speed XT to be 100% reliable for several years.
12 speed SLX has left a lot to be desired.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: Do you have pic of that bent SLX cage?
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: No I'm not that kind of guy. I can't figure out how to upload pics to PB and I'm not that bothered. I uploaded some about ten years ago and it was a massive PITA.

It picked up a stick and mangled the cages. I bent them back good enough to hit every gear but it amazed me how soft the metal was.
Also the clutch pretty much only works in seven or eight gears.
  • 1 0
 @jaame: RS makes bushings fit in all sorts of ways, sometimes well, sometimes too tight, sometimes too loose. Left upper leg on my Lyrik is slightly too tight. There’s a slight wear on it when I remove the uppers and teflon on the bush is almost fully worn out. If I do a fresh service of my Lyrik, like new oil, new dust seals and foam rings, soaked with oil, and I pit one leg at a time, the right will slide in on it’s own weight, left won’t. It goes in without perceivable friction but it’s not as good as right. According to my bike mechanic friends, it’s normal for RS
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: Send them back under warranty?
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 @thenotoriousmic: Warranty is overrated. It is typically to protect the user against production errors. If the claim is within the first few weeks after the sale, the manufacturer would (to not honor the claim) have to prove that the very product was fine when it was sold. After that, (for the customer to get a refund/replacement) the customer would have to prove that it was actually a production fault. Sometimes you can see that the crack starts at the void in the casting. Or in case of Cannondale, you can see that the corrosion under the paint has the shape of a hand. But in most cases of JRA, you can't. At most you can see that it was a design/engineering error. But those typically aren't covered under warranty. They may do a recall if it makes the product particularly dangerous (like a suspension fork air chamber valve popping out) but something like helicoils coming out... Even the fork bushings, as long as it has been produced within the tolerances set by the manufacturer, it is good. That said, this is the kind of stuff that could be sorted with a fork service. I recall Mojo Suspension used to ream fork bushings to suit the stanchions perfectly (back when they were servicing Fox suspension). That may get you the smoother fork you're be after.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: heh no. Only to get another pair, messed up in a different way? The issue is too common to be left without a fork and just get new crap. I observed the issues with 2nd gen Pikes around 2013, people were sending them back like crazy due to jamming equalizing port. All that was necessary was to service the fork out of the box and it would be fine. Some people behave as if getting something back on warranty was something to be proud of. I showed them! They respected my rights! Oh well... the fault in my Lyrik was not worth the hassle. They lose value like hell anyways. I am not made of this clay Smile
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: this fork is really plush. Loose bushings seem to do the business. It doesn't chatter when I ride. Only when bouncing it.
  • 1 0
 @WAKIdesigns: if you’re wearing through your anodising because the bushings are too tight then you need to send them back before you void your warranty. Have you checked your csu for alignment? They’re quite easy to knock out of line and quite easy to straighten up again.
  • 1 1
 @thenotoriousmic: This fork is so tortured and beyond warranty period - I don't care anymore. Again, I got disappointed when I saw this issue on my fork. I would be furious if I got a new fork that had another issue which is not unlikely considering RS QC standards. Disappointed > Furious. Changing bike for next year so I won't invest any energy in my 27.5" non boost, single crown fork. Getting a Boxxer as next fork. I am inspired by Paul Aston. 38 and 40 are in the possibilities too. But I am planning to travel to BC for my 40th birthday so I may as well get this Canfield One frameset with Öhlins. It would do for me big time.
  • 1 1
 @OneTrustMan: Big Grin
Ah, I ain't a brand boi either..
I'm just getting a kick out of, being part of this "discussion", and watching all us board mtbers blow are lids Big Grin .
Sounds like a good set up you got there, and same story here... Only way to get something exactly the way you want, is to build it up your self, like suspension upgrades. I'm running deore 10 speed too, derailleur upgraded with xt pullies, made a small, albeit a nice difference in weight/smoothness of the bearings. I planning on upgrading the cage to xt, once I figure out which one to order. Also planning on changing the chain to xt 11-speed, supposed to help with shifting performance, i'm told.
My big stinker with the nx is, the cassette is a pig, and the derailleur is cheapy plastic/way over complicated. Shimano deore beats in ease of adjustment, and build quality. And the clutch mech on the deore is much more refined then on the nx. It's those small, but important, things that add up to deore being better then nx im my book.
And you can't compare xx1 to nx, it's another world...
It's like me paring a xt 10 speed old stock cassette, with my upgraded derailleur, and new xt 10 speed chain. And like you, I hardly purchase any parts full retail, I snoop the web looking for discounts. Here's some examples...
New Deore M6000 10-Speed 11-42t $119.30
New XT M8000 11 speed pullies $25.00
New Old Stock Sram Guide R Brakeset $180.00
New Sram 180mm Sram Centerlock Rotor Set $60.00
New Old Stock Manitou Markhor fork $180.00
Yadda yadda...
  • 1 0
 @wcr: I always buy XT over Deore/SLX because of pulleys. It's almost exact difference in price between SLX and XT - OEM XT pulleys. But you get a sturdier paralleogram as a bonus. XTR rear mech is kind of worth the money, when buying it second hand, because of carbon cage. And that has zero to do with saving, it has to do with durability of the cage. All Shimano alloy cages 10 and 11sp have tolerance issue where if they get bent, they need to be straightened quite meticulously at the bottom, otherwise chain will have a tendency to drop and get stuck between the pulley and the cage. Sure, you can fix it in the workshop and once you are aware of the issue, you will know how accurate you need to be, but can be a pain in the ass with trail side fix with a rock. I am now browsing classifieds few times a day for 12sp Shimano XT and XTR parts. It is worth mentioning that my 11sp XTR cassette survived 2 years of riding. It's only now it start to feel worn out. Still shifts better than almost new XX1 I have on spare wheelset.
  • 1 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Thanks for the heads up Waki Smile , something I didn't know. Question: Will xt/xtr cages fit deore? I know there are both gs and sgs, in all 4 ranges, just don't know if hole/mounting points are the same...
  • 2 0
 @wcr: Unfortunately I don’t know.
  • 1 0
 @thenotoriousmic: lol you just described both processes but again haven't said why is better for a cassette.
I didn't know AK47 where stamped, but you couldn't have picked a better example: AK47, made to be cheap, easy to use and totally reliable, atributes that made it the most popular assault riffle ever. Could it be any better if machined? Nope. It could be a bit lighter or better looking, if you care about that (that's the reason fancy stems are machined after forging). But would it be any better at killing people because of the CNC? No.
I hope the analogy is clear enough.

Also you insist in calling me fan boy even though I'm telling you I'm using Sram right now and I'm happy with it for the most part, just saying that buying it aftermarket is stupid.
See you next time.
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 @ismasan: You didn’t know the difference between stamped and milled so as requested, I explained it to you in the hope you’d work it out for yourself. Do I have to hold your hand and babysit you through every conversation? You was halfway there with your AK spiel. How do you think it compares to a modern weapon? Oh and by the way the original AKs were all milled, it wasn’t until they were mass produced that they started using stamped parts and the quality and consistency dropped unsurprisingly or so I’m told, unlike bicycle components I have no first hand experience with AK-47’s... Yet.
  • 2 0
 Little follow up:

I did 70 miles, 12000' of climbing on my XTR equipped XC bike Saturday.
I did 50 miles, 8000' on my Eagle equipped E29.

Yep, still think both groups are great. I actually think the Sram shifts better under load than the XTR, but, I have a tough time believing that. I am guessing they are both so good that I was just busy enjoying them both.

Also have to say, the XTR brakes are great too. Never experienced any wandering bite point. Modulation was great too, compared to the XTR I used before. I can't directly compare as the Codes are working at slowing down a 40 pound E29 where the XTR is slowing a HT XC, but, I like them both too.
  • 1 0
 Edit: E29 ride was Monday.
  • 55 0
 87$ for a deore derailleur and shifter... why would you even try to enter that market...
  • 4 0
 That's what I was thinking, really no point unless you are willing to give them to OEM for free to get them into the market.
  • 14 0
 Bingo nail on the head. The day Shimano released Deore 12s the gods sang.
  • 5 2
 Is there a review saying it is a good setup?
It's cheap but so far that's all.
Don't get me wrong, I wish it is perfect!
  • 13 2
 @lecriquet:
Dude, how dare you question if Deore is a good set up. It’s Shimano Deore. And it’s 12 speed. All you need to know.
  • 46 3
 Let's go to the comment section to see what the experts say.
They still hate Sram and are not open to new ideas/companies. Today's Popular Opinion: "why? when shimano deore exists", and "300$? for something new, not financially stable yet, and from a small company? DISGUSTING". Thanks for tuning in, and tomorrow we will be back for more insight from the industry's leading experts, the pink bike commenters.
  • 12 3
 It probably could be said that Pinkbike commenters are MORE willing to pay a premium for new kit than the general public. Chances are what we say is fairly reflective of the sentiments of the market. Who is going to even know about TRP let alone spend over $300 for a derailleur if they're not fairly seriously into the bike scene?

So yes, "Why, when Deore is an option?" is a very, very valid sentiment. Shimano just has a huge advantage. Likely TRP cannot compete with such a large company on low-end price, so they have to bring something at least slightly different to the market. Then, price matters less. Think if they brought a $100 derailleur that had similar functionality to Deore. Why get the slightly more expensive TRP derailleur that does the same thing? With the Hall Lock and other marketed differences they're pushing the "different" option concept which in the case of a derailleur is hard because they're basically all the same.
  • 10 0
 Hey give the experts some credit here, these comments aren't nearly as toxic as brake reviews.
  • 2 1
 @A-HIGHLY-EDUCATED-PROFESSIONAL: Um, I met a couple the other day dying on their new Specialized ebikes they had paid $16k for the pair...hardest they had EVER ridden....oh, no one taught them how to turn the ebike on.......in general I am a dick, but did help them enable the power.....
  • 1 0
 @manuni88: ...or any Specialized, E13, or Envy review. But I enjoyed the analysis of the commenters.
  • 2 0
 @manuni88: or carbon wheel reviews
  • 1 1
 Regardless of whether PB commentators are technically right or wrong, we are the masses that purchase and therefore make a product viable in the market. If I was a developer of, say, an expensive linkage fork and comments on my production-ready prototype were far more negative than positive, then I would reconsider mortgaging my house to go to production.
  • 4 0
 @iamamodel:
But the buying masses don't write comments on Pinkbike.
It's pretty much the same people that comment here under those articles.
Look at Waki. How does he even find time to ride a bike when he is like 24/7 on Pinkbike making one shitpost rant after another.

Most of the time I just need to read the title of new articles to know what the comments will be like.
Especially when it comes to drivetrains, or brakes.
  • 1 0
 @OneTrustMan: I know PB commentators are not the masses, but they are sample of the masses. Do you think the Norco Optic is going to be a good seller? I do, based on PB comments. Did you ever think the Trust fork was going to be successful? I didn't, based on PB comments. Do you think this shifter will be around in five years? Nope.
  • 2 0
 @iamamodel:
Based on Pinkbike comments Sram would already be bankcrupt, because their derailleurs explode if you look too hard on them, DOT will make your bike melt away and all their cassettes are made of cheese.

The problem with " they are sample of the masses " is that is always the same sample.
You have like the same 1000 people here who write the comments on the articles.
This number is irrelevant to the market.

The Nocro did sell well,because it's good bike. Nothing special. Good bikes sell well, bad ones aren't.
Trust did not do well, because they made overpriced, ugly markting hype forkes.
Anyone could have foreseen this.
Will this shifter be around in 5 year.s I would not be surprised if not, because it's to overpriced and worse than others. Again, nothing special. Anyone can foresee this.
  • 1 0
 @RoadStain: OMFG that's hilarious
  • 1 0
 @EarlyRise - it is rather ironic you ride around Gothenburg and like Sram considering it is probably one of the most demanding places on Earth when it comes to shifting. Very few people shift as often and much as we do here. Good luck riding toughest climbs in Änggården on Sram cassettes. Well, I know because it is rather obvious someone is riding sram, you can hear their chains crying for help from a mile.
  • 18 0
 It might be a bit expensive, and the performance might not be up there - both things can be fixed in later iterations.
Let´s appreciate the fact, that someone finally took their time to make a visual guideline for chainlength and B-tension. And on top of that added a "Hall-Lock". I´m not sure about the last one, but the two first ones could be gamechangers for the novice home mechanic.
  • 6 1
 I agree, those markings are a so simple but useful.
  • 2 1
 @JimmyGrand : Shimano did a B-tension visual guidline, and there instructions to the correct chainlengh can be understood by a 3 year old...
  • 16 0
 It looks like the bastard child of a Shimano and a SRAM rear mech. Big Grin Still it is nice to see another option, good for TRP!
  • 8 1
 More competition is welcome, but that price. Microshift at least coming in at better price. Been riding MTB for 30yrs, maybe unlucky but SRAM never seems quite as durable, and spares are pricey. I never broke a Shimano shifter or derailleur. Industry always wants you to upgrade, soon a Shimano gearbox.
  • 12 2
 It is black and gold though... which is fairly crucial.
  • 9 1
 I like Goooooold.... Schmoke and a pancake?
  • 1 0
 Should go with my gold spengle wheels
  • 1 0
 It does have that Ka$hima vibe
  • 6 0
 Hard sell. 1 question, can I swap out between brands? Problem with owning this is that it is very doubtful anyone will have a spare mech or shifter if I bang one at a race weekend. Can i mix match for instance?
  • 10 2
 I have the SLX M7100 rear derailleur and it's the first Shimano mech I've had that I think is shitty. I wouldn't mind trying one of these out if the cable pull awas the same as the shimano shifter. Looking at he price though, I could get three SLXs of two XTs for the same as one of these. It doesn't add up. It's s though Ford saw the VW Golf, made the Focus and tried to sell if for the same as an M3. I can't see it doing well.
  • 2 0
 @jaame: I agree, I own a ford focus, hate it, it's the beige of the car world, so dull, but for £500 and still running after 4yrs it does mean I can spend more on bikes ????
  • 10 0
 @Bedede: I had a Talbot camper van may years ago that I bought for £200, it was ok, however once i read the owners manual and saw that the colour of the van was 'Tropical Beige' it became awesome.
  • 7 1
 @Bedede: I had a Focus when I was 21 and it was the absolute shit. That 115bhp was like lightning underfoot. There is no way that car could have been improved.

Other than... Tropical beige paint.
  • 1 2
 @toop182: How would coitus on race weekend affect the performance of one's drivetrain?
  • 6 0
 Plus one for all those little indicators printed on the mech. Every calibrated part should have the same. It infuriates me that only one fork company can print sag on the stancion.
  • 3 0
 r/s holds the patent for that, personally I dont mind as it means every other fork doent have lines tagged all over the stanchions. It would be handy for rear shocks tho.
  • 4 0
 I always wonder about the business sense of trying to go head to head with Shimano and SRAM in the drivetrain world. Though I guess someone probably said the same about SRAM when they showed up.
  • 1 0
 Tektro knows how to compete with shimano and sram for budget OEM brakes; I wouldn't be surprised if they trickle stuff down from TRP to Tektro to try to compete for budget OEM drivetrains.

TRP is certainly a more serious contender than SRAM was with the gripshift.
  • 1 0
 To be fair, when Sachs entered the market in 1895, they didn't have to compete with Shimano until it was founded in 1921.
  • 2 0
 i have used both shimano 12 speed and sram 12 speed and like both for different reasons. I like the reverse direction on the shift lever on shimano shifters and prefer the more positive shifting feel of the sram stuff. There are a couple of things i do really find useful for me with the sram stuff though and they are the ability to lock the rear mech straight really makes it easier to remove and refit the rear wheel and work on the chain etc and the larger rear mech pulleys which make it much easier to get a brush on them to clean when cleaning my drivetrain.
  • 6 2
 Is rather see good, inexpensive cassettes than an overpriced shifter and derailleur set.
  • 2 0
 Bit like when any other manufacturer brings out a new pair of flat pedal shoes.

- Yeah they are pretty good but...not quite as good as FiveTens

Shimano are FiveTen thought I'd clear that up Wink
  • 1 0
 Shimano shoes aren't as good as five ten.
  • 2 0
 When my GX Eagle stuff goes, which I feel like will be soon as I am tired of dicking with it, I am going to Box 11sp. Might be a little harder to push the paddle but it will work.
  • 1 0
 It is a lot harder. Like a lot. Takes getting used to. Box2 shifter is shitty plastic. Box1 shifter is much better feeling. But still requires some effort.
  • 1 0
 @fruitsd79: I would do the better Box 1 stuff. Hell, even a wide 9 speed is enough for me.
  • 1 0
 @jmhills: I used to be all shimano, but once i got used to sram shifter layout, i think i really prefer it.
  • 2 1
 Why would anyone want to go with TRP for that price point when there are other mid to top end options that are well below that price point? Kind of piss me off that every Jack and Jill coming into the bike market with their boutique components with a very high price point. Then everyone follows suit, which makes everything downright unaffordable. Pretty much, there is no competition and everyone is out to make the most of what they can in a short period of time before something "new" is marketed. It's pretty much BS and the bike industry has become the the DH Ski scene for the past 10 - 15 years.
  • 1 1
 I don’t get it. The pricing doesn’t make any sense for you to pick it over the current competition, and other than the handy little markers, it offers nothing to drive people to switch.

Hint, either make it cheap or make it offer something unique.
  • 2 0
 Really dig the features and doing something new. Too bad the pricing means very few people will probably dare to take the risk. Tough market for newcomers.
  • 1 1
 The design is alot like the box shifter and derailliure and I am sorry it just looks cheap. I tried the BOX setup and it was also hard to shift but for the price it works MEH.
  • 3 1
 Lightweight, mid-cage, wide range, wireless 11sp for the win. I'm waiting...
  • 4 2
 OMG! Why would they even think of making a drivetrain. Don’t they know Shimano has Deore 12s?
  • 4 0
 TRPlease
  • 2 1
 What about the status?, what spez said when asked why they've made a 27.5 park bike instead of the alu enduro 29er we all want and need?!(read, deserve)
  • 3 1
 Micro shift offers about the same performance for about half this price. Or there is Shimano Deore.
  • 1 2
 I spent a couple hours trying to help a friend get this thing working properly. It is the most difficult derailleur I've ever worked on. We never found the "sweet spot" and because there was a dead spot in the clutch he experienced a lot of dropped chains. Piece of crap, end of story.
  • 2 0
 But how does it compare to BOX?

I call for a BOX/TRP/SRAM/Shimano showdown!
  • 1 3
 While its cool to see other companies try their hands at drivetrain components, I'm not particularly excited about this one. It's rather expensive, apparently has less refined haptics than Shimano and SRAM and a derailleur cage made from carbon fibre is just begging for component failure. Scratch it against a rock once and it will probably start disintegrating.
  • 5 1
 Xtr has used a carbon fiber cage for a long time fyi
  • 4 1
 @clink83: XTR, old x0, new XX1. Scratching with rocks doesn't seem to be a problem, and when you bang it into something it doesn't need to be bent back mid-ride to keep the shifter working. I had an XO 9spd carbon rear der. on my first dh bike. If that managed to survive my hack riding at that point, I've got total confidence in a carbon cage.
  • 2 0
 I wonder if the hyperglide plus chain/cassette would make it even better.
  • 2 0
 An adjustable clutch is a good feature.
  • 2 0
 Everyone in the comments is just talking about SRAM vs Shimano, lol.
  • 1 0
 These product reviews should have additional testers for evaluation. Its always gonna be an opinion rather than a consensus.
  • 1 0
 Check vital mtb
  • 2 0
 @Boise1:
Read that review.
Seems there's still some kinks that need ironing out.
  • 1 1
 Stopped reading after seing the price, You are wrong guys, try again, who would take this instead of a shimano XT that remains cheaper ?
  • 1 2
 its a shame to have a new prehistoric gear system. like all derailleur systems it will need constant adjustment. the industry needs to move on . its time for a proper gear box, we haven't seen one yet!
  • 2 0
 Where is it manufactured?
  • 1 0
 if its better than a sramvill take it. broken three x5 derailleurs in the last few months
  • 2 1
 Blah Blah Blah quit talking and just ride a single speed. No shifting needed.
  • 2 1
 I see you have a Status in for testing PB.
  • 5 0
 That’s a Norco Optic.
  • 1 0
 nice bait though
  • 1 0
 @mikekazimer: are you doing a long term test of the optic, or just using it as a testing platform?
  • 1 0
 Glad to see you're testing the new Deore 12 speed, can't wait!
  • 1 0
 Is that the new specialized status?
  • 1 0
 Norco Optic 2020
  • 1 0
 So youre sayin its a shlt gruppo. Lmao
  • 1 0
 Should have just gone wireless and be done with it
  • 1 0
 Box Prime9 is all you need!
  • 1 0
 Tropical beige.
  • 2 1
 One question: Why?
  • 4 0
 I know right? Did you hear that Shimano has Deore 12 speed?
  • 1 0
 If you make a new product, it should be appealing in some way.
  • 1 0
 @JohanG:
Exactly, with Shimano’s new Deore 12 speed. Not much else is appealing anymore.
  • 1 3
 Does TRP belong to a billionaire who has money to lose and who likes to shoot once`s foot for making such a disconnected thing?
  • 2 2
 That's the ugliest rear derailleur I've ever seen. Looks like Acera.
  • 1 0
 where's it made?
  • 1 1
 I see cable rub. Cable rub everywhere.
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