Performance Notes
Let’s start out with saying that I always found the concept of Fazua’s drive system intriguing and genius. Two bikes in one? Sign me up. But taking a closer look and learning about the details shows that there is still room for improvement.
Test bike
Bulls Wild Flow Evo RS
Battery: Fazua 252Wh
Tires: Schwalbe Nobby Nic Addix Performance 29 x 2.35”
Weight: 18.94kg/41.67lbs. (w/out pedals)
To get one of the biggest issues out of the way, starting the bike is not as straightforward as it should be. I would have never thought that I’d need an instruction manual on how to start an e-bike, but with Fazua’s system, it helps.
It turns out, pushing the start button on the handlebar remote doesn’t do much for you. Little did I know, the battery shuts into a deep-sleep mode every eight hours from which it only can be awoken by removing it from the bike and pushing a standby button at the top of the battery. That’s similar to needing to pop the hood of your car to push a button on the engine before being able to drive off if you fail to move it within an eight-hour period. Ummmm ...
It gets worse when you lock the battery so it can’t get stolen (if your bike is equipped with that locking feature) and take a trip with your car to a remote location for a bike ride, only to figure out that you left your key at home and can’t start your bike’s motor (something that almost happened to me once, which would have ended up with typing the rant of my life). Basically, it’s the most user-unfriendly piece of engineering I’ve seen in a long time and, in lamest terms, should really, really, really be fixed.
Removing the Drivepack unit from the bike itself is not a super simple task either. The so-called Locker mechanism that holds the Drivepack in place does not represent the most ingenious piece of engineering. Again, without an instruction manual you’ll be hard-pressed to get it open, no matter how strong your fingers are. Cussing profusely doesn’t help at all (I tried), but pushing the release button hard with a broomstick does. A colleague told me of the Drivepack falling on his foot once. Mine dropped onto the ground more than once during that getting-to-know period, so I can relate. But that’s not the correct way to do it.
Looking down at your bike, you have to wrap your fingers around the (usually dirty) Drivepack and pull it towards you. Then you have to push the release button on top of the downtube with your thumbs and at the same time release the Drivepack with your fingers. Right. Once lowered, there’s a secondary catch that can hold the battery halfway released from the frame for loading. I managed to get the battery and mechanism stuck in an angled position more than once when not perfectly aligned, which required some fiddling with the secondary latch to get it unstuck.
By the way, there’s no external loading port on the bike or generally available for the system, so you have to do this procedure every time you want to charge your bike. I ended up leaving the battery hanging in its charging position before my next ride to awake it from its stupid slumber mode and save myself at least one opening and closure procedure before each ride. There’s a Locker pX mechanism available that claims to deliver an improved user experience, and I can only hope it does.
With the Black Pepper Performance update, released in April 2020, a bunch of the motor management system’s flaws have been taken care of. One of the most important improvements was extending the motor’s cadence support range. With the original setting, pedaling at a higher pace often felt like pedaling into a wall – the quicker you spun your pedals and harder you pushed, the less support you got from the bike with the power dropping off outside the optimal cadence of 65 to 85 crank revolutions per minute. It felt even less like that, to be honest. After the update you’re blessed with a constant motor output from 55 to 125 revolutions per minute, which is a major difference out on the trail and almost making it hard to believe that the same motor can be so heavily affected by a software update.
With a completely overhauled motor control, the ridie feel has been revamped, delivering a truly natural assist. It wasn’t bad before, now its transition is buttery smooth over the entire range and abrupt changes in pedal revolutions don’t affect pedaling fluidity anymore.
Depending on the settings, you can now noticeably change the power delivery and motor assist to your liking. Since the process of changing the settings requires a computer and some fiddling with the USB cap of the Drivepack, that process might take a while to find your perfect setting, but it’s worth it.
Of course, the higher the support, the quicker your battery is going to drain. Since I only found the update a week before this review went online I wasn’t able to go through extensive testing again and figure out how each of those modes affected the real-world power usage or performance. From what I could gather, running on the highest possible settings for all motor management setup and running in Rocket mode resulted at about a 12 percent power drain for every 100 meters of altitude, picking the moderate settings throughout only required about 10 percent.
Before the update, the support used to feel more like someone pushing you at walking pace with a hand on your back and the power delivery in River or Rocket mode felt more like the lowest support mode, or something in between the lowest and medium mode on most regular e-bikes, rather than the dazzling punch to the pedals of one of the higher settings from the competitors in this test.
After the update, with the highest motor setup settings with a power output of 300W, it was possible to keep up with someone riding at regular efforts with Specialized’s medium Trail mode next to you (which is already pretty powerful). You still probably had to put more energy in and your battery consumption would suffer, but keeping up wasn’t even an option before. Since there is a note in the Toolbox that warns you that overheating could be more of a problem in this setting, with the bike regulating down the power output in that case, this highest motor setup appears to be better suited for using Rocket mode for shorter but more demanding sections of trail, rather than continuous use. In either motor setup configuration after the update – even riding in lower Breeze and River modes – the bike was simply significantly more fun to pedal around than before.
Fazua’s evation is still less powerful than regular e-bike systems in their highest settings, but that might actually appeal to some riders out there.
Also, accelerating from standstill and when going beyond 25 km/h results in a seamless transition after the update. Only once in a while when you suddenly stop pedaling can you notice a slight clicking noise from the motor, but it’s nothing to fret over. It’s amazing, by the way, how silent the motor is running. With an almost regular look of the bike’s frame, this concept truly is hard to distinguish from a regular design of a bike.
It was a bit weird that the bike’s internal speedometer reading showed 3 to 4km/h less than my Garmin at higher and around 1 to 2 km/h at lower speeds. Usually it’s only off from other e-bike systems by 1km/h at the most, if at all. So essentially, if I trust my Garmin more than the Fazua’s internals, the motor only delivered support up to 21 or 22km/h, rather than the 25km/h that it should.
There’s a bit more play for the motor’s freewheel to engage, which could result in a longer delay until the hub engages, especially if the hub’s internals has a larger engagement angle itself. I only noticed it occasionally and wasn’t bothered by it but it might be a factor for some.
Out of all systems, doing that lap test before the update was by far the least fun and rewarding. With the rather large 38-tooth chainring and only a 46 cog as the lowest gear on the cassette, the bike was struggling on the short, really steep inclines, even in Rocket mode. With the improved cadence range after the Black Pepper firmware update using the moderate preset for motor management on the test lap, the bike fared much better in every aspect, resulting in considerably higher speeds on the uphills, a far more natural riding experience at a higher cadence and ultimately an entertaining ride.
On the downside, I only managed to climb about 250m less in altitude at a shorter overall distance, but I'll take that over the old setup any day of the week. Plus, I’m pretty certain that if the bike was setup on the lowest motor preset you’d probably be able to cover a similar distance as before but you’d still enjoy the performance much more.
Thinking about reach, I never considered carrying an extra battery in my backpack, but at a low weight of about 1.4kg, even I could entertain that thought, not ruling out the Fazua’s capability for epic long rides.
Test lap
Rocket mode (before update): 16.2km/935m @75kg estimated (21.62km/1,246m @55kg tested)
Rocket mode (moderate setting, after update): 12.38km/723m @75kg (16.51km/965m @55kg tested)
At around 50% charge a slight drop in power delivery is noticeable, probably due to the small size of the battery and natural reduction of power output. At around 20% there’s another noticeable drop, but this one is explained by the system deliberately scaling back the support at around 15 to 20% to extend reach. At 3% the motor support shuts down to meet some countries’ requirements.
By talking so much about the engine, you shouldn’Pt forget what the lower weight of the total system does to the handling of the bike. While our test bike with carbon frame and mostly aluminum components still weighed about 19kg, breaking below the 20kg weight barrier does make a difference. Some bike manufacturers can scratch at that mark with a regular e-bike setup, but you’d have to spend an arm and a leg for that sensation.
So, when lifting the bike up in the parking lot it still feels a bit chunky, but already when handling it next to an average e-bike when loading it into or even onto a car for example makes a huge difference. More importantly, when riding the bike it does react more like a regular bike than a hefty e-bike. Without pushing into corners on the downhills and with being able to lift the front end moderately easy, you don’t really have to adapt your riding style to enjoy the ride.
Before the update it seemed to be a bit more difficult to figure out how far you can get with the Fazua drivetrain, compared to other e-bike systems. I had a fit friend with a weight of 70 kg take the bike out on an extended ride, spending about 95% of the time only riding the Breeze mode. We managed to finish the loop covering 1,380 meters of altitude and a distance of 45.9km. He had three bars remaining. A few days later I did the exact same route with the bike, using the same modes at the same areas and weighing 15kg less but I ended up on the last bar of battery power at the end. Since we finished the lap quicker the first time around, I assume that he put more leg power in, pushing the threshold and saving battery in the process. Again, without recording those separate rides with a torque meter and with the cadence range having changed significantly, that’s just a wild guess.
To activate the walk assist you have to first shift into no support mode (white) and then hold the lower button for two seconds to activate the bike’s push, which isn’t immensely powerful but could be a help in some situations. You have to keep resting your thumb on that lower button during the push, if you lose contact you’ll have to start back up with the two-second delay.
I was slightly disappointed that the eleven levels on the Remote b display for battery weren’t designed to crank it up to eleven but that the top one is reserved for system messages. A blinking yellow light tells you if there is a connection error to the speed sensor. Before the update the battery charge indicators seemed to erratically jump levels once in a while. Sometimes it took quite long for even the first three levels to drop, then you lost a bar within a minute, without the terrain or riding giving a real explanation for it. Again, the update seems to have done the trick and the app and display correlates the remaining charge correctly.
By using the app you can see the exact percentage of power used as well as every other detail you might be interested in, including rider input. It would be great if there was a handlebar display available that could show that info. In bright sunlight and depending on the color of the support mode, it’s sometimes a bit harder to figure out the exact charge but overall, I appreciate the more detailed information of ten levels compared to five energy bars from many other systems.
Being able to remove the motor Driveunit and battery is smart, essentially giving you two bikes in one. However, it doesn’t seem to make full sense on a bike designed for a certain category of riding and spec. Our test bike, the Bulls Wild Flow EVO RS is part of the trail bike category with 120 mm of travel front and rear and comes to a weight of 18.9kg without pedals. With the unit and battery removed, the bike still weighs about 16kg with the separately available aluminum Downtube Cover installed, weighing 490 grams. I don’t think that anyone would truly enjoy pedaling around a trail bike with 16kg. I gave it a spin and wasn’t highly entertained for that category, although in an emergency situation it would still be better than nothing. The Wild Flow’s top model, the SL, packed with lightweight carbon goodies, is rumored to scratch at the 16kg weight mark with engine, which would change things dramatically.
On an enduro bike like NOX’s Helium Enduro Pro, which also uses Fazua’s evation drive, the removable system also makes a lot of sense, even with the bike weighing more. The 180mm travel ride comes to 19.9 kg complete, so about 17 with the system removed. Taking it out for a day doing shuttle runs or going to the bike park without a motor suddenly becomes a real option. Apart from that, I’ve taken quite a few heavier big-hit bikes on extended rides in the past with the downhill being the true reward, so I wouldn’t even rule out the option of pedaling that kind of bike up the hill if necessary.
A Fazua-equipped bike also seems like the perfect solution for a weaker rider wanting to keep up with strong riders on regular bikes.
All in all, I wasn’t really excited over the performance of Fazua’s evation before the firmware update. But that Black Pepper update made a huge difference for the better, pushing the concept closer to the refined drive systems of established e-bike players while enjoying the more natural weight and handling of the bike on your ride. You even develop a routine with removing the battery excessively even though it always reminds you that the battery’s deep-sleep mode is not a user-friendly solution.
Minion DHF v. Minion DHR2 v. Magic Mary v. Aquila v. Assegai v. Pinner v. Hellkat v. DH22 v. DH34 v. Eddy Current Front v. Der Kaiser v. High roller 2
Easy shootout, Maxxis tire . The subject is done
Just try a few and see what you like. Tyres are cheap enough and wear fast enough for everyone to do their own shootout. eBikes are not
Missing the Yamaha motor is a huge error considering the massive e-bike market share Giant have. Also they have their own software.
Saying Specialized is "Brose" is an error, the software is totally different. I know the engineers, they would not be happy with this "tagging". It is a Specialized motor not a Brose. For example, heat management design was specified by Specialized, where the circuit board layout, internally in the motor was placed, for example.
Shimano: "I had one instance where I tried to get going for over twenty minutes, being stuck on W013..." this is indicative of a ............ in control of the bike, not an experienced tester. Pop the battery if anything gets blocked and you will be reset in two seconds.
The comparison at this level of detail is flawed and also pointless. In my experience, of riding all systems and testing for years for multiple magazines, only superficial comparisons can be made, nothing can be learned by deeply engaging like this, especially if ignoring all the other systems.
Knowing how magazines work, this is simply a Google search article designed to bolster Pinkbike's Google ebike search function/return rate.
I don't normally comment on other magazines works but in this case, this article should not have been published in this form unless its clearly marked as a random opinionated comparison. It's false information to consumers.
It's clearly mentioned that Specialized is not just using different software but a different motherboard as well.
Regarding Shimano, that's exactly the point. It was in the first few months with dealing with Shimano. Here's the official remedy solution from Shimano: "With your foot off the pedal, press the battery power button and turn on the power again. If the situation does not improve, contact the place of purchase." Ever tried to remove the battery from a 2019 Bergamont bike? So I think it's relevant for the end consumer to mention that this error can be a bit more pain in the ass than just hitting the on/off switch.
I agree that magazine testing is flawed. Every tester out there is opinionated and rides at a different level. Still, we're trying to help make choices from the product that's out there, based on our experience with many different products out there over the years, with all the limitations that we're facing. It was also mentioned, that some of the comparisons aren't scientifically accurate.
Personally, by the way, I couldn't care less about Google …
@flattire: Point taken, maybe picking a winner per se in that type of review wouldn't make sense. I'd still love to hear different reviewer's thoughts though, and a fastest time down X track in X conditions with the same rider would be really cool.
There is no way to control this and human nature means people will always want bigger, better, faster, more. If you wish to dispute my hypothesis, maybe you should do some reading and offer actual evidence.
As for bikes with more tourque , the current king is the tq motor haibike with 120nm. It will climb slightly steeper and slightly faster. Youll clean a few more climbs and go a couple km/h faster. Its a marginal difference and the bike is really long and weighs 65lbs and your battery wont be lasting long at full power. Itd be nice to have in the quiver but you wont be flying up the hill and itll be cumbersome. Still fun but the whole idea of emtb's is to ride more mtb type trails with a bit of assist. The market wants more battery to go longer range and lighter because mtb traols are tight. To double the tourque on current bikes your bike would have to be crazy long, internal gearing bdcause freehubs and chains wouldnt last a week, heavy wide tires and youd need 3 x 10lb batteries to go longer than an hour and it'd weigh 100lbs. Even in 10 years when batteries are optimistically forecast to be half the current weight, the bike your melting down with fear over will be 90lbs.Thatd suck on mtb trail. The market doesnt want that. Now we're talking, get a moto or small pit bike and ride moto trails not tight mtb trails.
Here is my issue & my heartbreak. I have been mountain biking since 1986. I just turned 50. I have a blood condition that has made any sort of exercising put my heart at risk. I get terribly short of breath doing mild exertions. Before this happened I still biked to the trailhead on weekends (50 minutes) My rides were 20 miles on the trail. My whole life I have been a cyclist. Now I can't ride anymore. I am considering this category of bicycle more & more. My main problem is the prejudice against it in my own mind. I have them against young kids and anyone under say 45 out on the trail. But now here I am. Unable to ride my bikes. When I consider buying an e-mtb I think I am over my own prejudice but I still feel so much shame over what I think other mountain bikers will think of me. I don't look 50. I don't act 50. Regardless of that shame I am going to have to go this route if my life outside of my job is to have meaning. I can't rock climb anymore either due to the medical problem or go on strenuous hikes. Anything cardiovascular is difficult for me. Pinkbike. Thank you for this wealth of knowledge. I truly appreciate it.
I don't believe a single person who says they'll never ride an ebike. Sooner or later, every one of us is going to get to a point where our bodies just can't cut it any more. An ebike could give you an extra.. i dunno... 10 years maybe?... more? of riding. Are these people still going to refuse to ride one when their time comes? Just give up on the sport they say they love so much?No way, if they still love MTB they'll be on an ebike.
As for being judged... Decent folk will surely be pleased for you enjoying yourself. Anyone else... well, who cares. As long as you're not breaking any rules, you shouldn't let anyone tell you you're "not mountain biking right".
I had no real opinion on ebikes personally until last summer. I saw a chap riding up the fire road on one. It was only as he passed me i noticed he had no legs below the knee! Had those blade things.
Dude had significant proportions of his legs missing and he could still mountain bike and hit the trails. Because of an ebike.
After that i fully support them. Don't have one myself. But i don't care how many people who don't need one take it as an easy or lazy route to mountainbiking. If it helps anyone who does need one then it's all worth it.
Think back to the early days of iPhone and what the BB users thought and said about it. Push that shit aside... you won't regret it and you won't be wrong!
What's even better is that there is no waste, battery acid and plastics going into landfill!
Like a lot of things...when it was just an idea, a concept, I hated on it. When someone I knew started using one, I warmed to the idea and have seen nothing but positive results.
Yeh and those MX guys with their motors are some of the fittest people in the planet. Your logic is possibly incorrect
They typically spend much more on their hobbies, from outright purchase price to service costs. This is good for the companies building bikes, and the companies that support those companies, it's a positive diversification even if it's not your cup of tea.
More importantly, an EMTB is a far more attractive theft than an analogue bike, so thanks for taking one for the team there.
I still don't enjoy overhearing the following inevitable topics of conversation:
1. Battery longevity
2. Regaining your love of climbing
3. How lightweight all that extra shit on your bike is.
but I think we need to start accepting there are some positives here.
Bosch aren't too far behind. It's the switchgear and wiring that lets everybody down in the UK. All the manufacturers seem to forget to test their bikes in wet conditions and assume that their customers won't store their bike in a cold damp garage or shed.
Brose are by far the least reliable from my experience. One of our customers went through 6 motors in less than a year (Levo) and he only rides around town and gravel tracks. Every day in all conditions mind.
Never again
youtu.be/KlJ1jRGMpjg
With that small of a range the E-bike just doesnt cut it atm- but the future should be promising.
Havent ridden an Levo etc. and not in the market for one but still want to test it out ;-)
I'm quite sure you could end eke out more range with lower power modes, but then you're missing the benefit/fun of all that power.
Im curious to know where all of these bikes with proprietary motors will end their life... :-/
I ride for fun, exercise is just an added benefit. If it wasn't fun, I wouldn't ride. I enjoy my acoustic bike rides, but I love my e-bike rides. The less enjoyable parts of the ride (climbs, fire roads) are over quicker, with less effort. They're even fun. The real fun (downhill) comes around more often and my legs are less cooked.
Another plus for the e-bike is that I can do a +40km ride and still function after, then do another one the very next day. Or ride solo on the e-bike in the morning, followed by an afternoon ride with the Mrs on the acoustic bikes.
For me one important limitation of the validity of this article and comparison is the weight and so the power output of the tester.
From my experience the feedback of the characteristics of the motor and its assistance depends a lot on the power generated by the rider.
I explain better why with an example:
Let's suppose to have two riders with very different weight but similar relative performance.
Rider A, weight 55kg and pushes actively 140 watt on average on the pedals.
Rider B, weight 85 kg and pushes actively 216 watt on average on the pedals.
Their level is roughly the same having the same weight/power ratio of 2,54 watt/kg for a hypothetical uphill like the one of the test.
Let's suppose to have a support in turbo of 350% ( 3.5 times is the average of assistance multiplication of the different systems)
In case of rider A he will have a motor output in turbo of 490 Watt corresponding to 140watt * 3.5 times
In case of rider B he will (should) have a motor output in turbo of 756 watt corresponding to 216 watt * 3.5 times
In real life the "problem" in case B is that the peak power of the motor is much less than the theoretical power needed to have the same support experience.
In fact a nominal power output of these motors is 250 watt and the peak power is about 400/565 watt (values taken on from the motor system specification)
Moreover the active power output of the rider B of 216 watts is a low absolute power value being peaks of 300/400 watt very normal for an average rider during a normal MTB ride.
So in case of a very light rider we will have a maximum support and a very dynamic ride even during hard efforts.
In case of heavy and/or powerful rider the assistance of the motor will be much less than declared one because the plateau of the motor would be reached. The support experience will be much less dynamic and a conservative/passive.
In effect an extra 100watt from the rider won't be multiplied by the motor system anymore and so for much more energy expenditure of the rider we will have no extra assistance by the motor.
So the experience of the riders will be very different in my personal experience having tested all the systems.
It would be much more objective to have the same test conducted by two different riders with very different weight and power output.
What do Pink Bike testers think about it. What's your experience?
Its ugly, but all is replacable and its perfect for trailbuilding, going to the grocery and so. Need a 1000 € budget to build a complete kit with a good battery. Bafang is a good alternative, especially with a bb motor. I choose the hub for an esayest maintenance and capability to go back to a normal bike in 15 minutes. The bb motor is better for serious offroad.
Ive run about 1300 km with, no sign of fatigue...
The others systems are better almost everywhere but I dont like the proprietary tools and parts. And its way more expansive.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekRHuq3oPsc
I have levo. That I have modified the hell out of. It is stupid fun. I worry I have offended the MTB Gods as it is just to good.
170mm front and rear, mullet, 500watt, XTR di2, carbon wheels.
Brose motor eats everything for power and intuitive delivery and ability to modify modes. Bosch is the most efficient, my mates on them seem to last longer, E Mtb mode is very good, that clack is a problem though and new display is wack.
Shimano steps is the best concept with Di2 plugin and the better Q factor and it seems quieter to me. Plus you can bolt on Xtr cranks.
The new XTR Di2 sounds interesting and if a new Shimano moto comes out that could be interesting.
You don't need a 50 tooth cassette on a E Bike.
The same stuff that has existed since forever applies, weight still matters and where it is. Voliouz/Lapierre are on the right track.
Rolling resistance matters HEAPS! I swapped to a Rekon and got 15% more battery life...but lost 2 rear wheels.
High Roller 2 2.8 and Cushcore is awesome.
The only thing that needs work with the levo is the battery concept is wrong. They are WAY to long if they brought out stubby 500watt batteries that would fix everything.
Get a E Bike ride more have more fun and get stronger and lose weight and tow your kids up hills so they ride more and have more fun and create up hill berms and ride more and get bigger rotors and burn more pads and ride more....just don't have bad trail etiquette cause then people start to fear and fear lead to hate and hate leads to suffering.... and restricted trail access.
You def. wont get stronger with an E-bike as the engine still assists you more than a normal bike.
Lifetime replacement warranty is worth it if you're riding moto trails and are concerned about giant baby heads ruining your wheels. If you never ride that style of trail on your E-bike you're doing it wrong.
And I am running a Bosch engined EMTB for 4 years now in the most crazy conditions you can put a bike in. I trust my Bosch engine 100%.
When did a pro ever admit that his sponsored bike makes an annoying noise? It just doesn't make sense. There are various reasons why the noise isn't as pronounced or wasn't yet heard.
A real PB ebike review without a bunch of negative comments.
I think we have turned a corner today.
Turbo levo FTW!
Me and my 2 buddies have 2018 models and mine has had electrical connector problem but that is it.
I really thought we would have had more trouble by now. The thing is great for getting trail work done.
I like 2.8 tires too. i think its perfect on the heavier bike. why use the exact same tires as on a light bike?
Thanks Pinkbike keep the comparisons coming.
In summary, I will leave the Ebiking to the cripples(more than I) and guys who MUST have the latest , coolest stuff. Knowing my cheap $6K Banshee is perfect for it's intended use.
Keen to see the long term reviews on how the drive trains keep up with power delivery from a motor to it, under load.
This being the case , i would go for the one that proves to be the most reliable over time .
I have a bosch third generation CX for the last three years and so far so good. But that’s not enough time to really say which motor will last the longest. So ?
And exactly where is the Yamaha PW-X2 motor or the Panasonic motor? The PW-X2, is far superior to the Shimano EP8 and we give-it a higher rating than the glamourized Bosch Gen4. The 2021 PW-X2, has been refined from the 2020 model. Quiet, responsive, adaptable, and easy to maintenance. The motor & battery work flawlessly in dry/cold temps below thirty degrees.
- Less powerful than regular e-bike systems.
you guys clearly did not get what a Fazua assist system is and why it´s designed like it is
Specifically, can one frame support any/all of these motors? Or, does one's frame choice dictate motor options?
Torque is how much work you can do, power is how fast you can do that work.
P=W/t
Most high torque motors also have a high power, so they get the best of both. But there are significant number of ebikes (remember we’re not talking about cars/motorbikes here) with motors that have very low torque output.
You can have 5000 Nm @ 1 rpm, that is 0,5 kW, it doesn't really do much.
500Nm @ 100 rpm on the other hand is 5,2 kW
100 Nm @ 500 rpm is also 5,2 kW
From this you can quite easily understand that torque alone is meaninless in the real world.
You can have 10 000 Nm axle torque from a 1 watt motor, but it would take years to get you up a small hill.
PS, i’m not talking about cars here.
@boozed, ok take away the torque what happens with all that power?
You can gear it to get whatever torque you want.
500 watts are 500 watts, doesn't matter if it's got 20 or 200 Nm, that's only a function of it's operating speed.
If you have 500 watts with high torque, that just means it's operating at a lower rpm, which can be useful or not, really depends on application and goal.
I just pointed out that torque is a component of power for a motor, and how the two relate to eachother.
How much torque you have in relation to power, only tells us the operating rpm of the motor, that's it.
You said: "Power only gives top speed and its always irrelevant because all e-bikes have their top speed restricted. The measure of torque has got to be the most important factor because that is what gives acceleration."
Only power matters at the end of the day (to a certain degree of course, you don't want the motor to spin at 50k rpm)
The torque you get as output is regulated by gearing, any motor with the same power can output the same torque at the same speed.
Most companies and reviewers focus their time only talking about power... hence the opening of my post. You've separated them out and removed the context of what I'm trying to say.
Talking only about power is irrelevant because there are more factors involved.
But I'll ask again because you didn't answer last time.
What happens to all that power (from an ebike motor!!!) if you don't allow it to have any torque? Remember that I know it's not actually possible to separate them both, but just answer the question.
The question i asked is clearly rhetorical... no one here seems to have the balls to answer. Its not tricky
Nobody else wants to answer it again because it's a dumb question. I'll give it a go beacuse I guess I have the 'balls':
less torque @ same rpm = less power.
this is meaningless though, as the power is spec'd on these motors, so:
less torque @ same power = faster rpm
more torque @ same power = slower rpm
In both cases the motor output is fed into a gearbox to output a similar usable range.
Hence bikes with the similar power will feel similar, regardless of the torque specs.
Power is a useful metric to ebike consumers, motor torque is not. Output torque @ certain rpm might be useful to the complete ebike nerds out there, but power already gives you that information.
now please, for sanity's sake, let the thread die.
Again, you can see several times that I’ve already said just that. So i’ll answer it for you.
“What happens to the power IF you have no torque?”
Nothing at all! Thats the answer. Which leads back to my original point- Knowing that you can’t seperate power and torque why do all reviews almost completely ignore torque.
nothing happens as in you don't get any output... sure... A motor with 0 torque would be rated at 0 Watts.
It's like asking what happens to all that power if you have no power. it's a stupid question and it shows how little you understand the simple concepts here.
I’ve never questioned the physics of torque and power.
I don't recall the age I would see such low figures in the scale.
Presently with 85Kg and 1,81m btw, means that I would be using +41%, than a slim 55kg rider?
Unfortunately, it's hard to say how much higher the percentage is going to be. I was riding with an 85kg rider at a launch on the same bikes and he was using between 30 to 35% more than I was, depending on the terrain of that day. So I'd assume it would be within that range.
I was really supprised with your weight.
Thanks!
I would be keen on a smaller motor that gives me +50% boost on the ups.
Without it, this article has not the same value.
To be fair i've tested and Ebikes (mainly Specialized) plenty of times - not my thing,but i can clearly see why some people are enjoying it and there is nothing wrong with it.
Sweet motorcycle!