RockShox Announce New Super Deluxe Coil

 "super enduro"

 that or fanny packs, my heart is still balancing

 @Whipperman: Don't forget the goggles on half-lids and kneepads around the ankles

 Don't fall for this "super deluxe" nonsense... everyone will be riding coil supreme within two years

 @Lookinforit: I think Goggles on Half-lids are only maybe enduro level 4, everyone and their mother is rocking that style. This shock only works at its best while wearing both, googles and a fanny pack though

 Remote lever. Extra cable is making a comeback since 2013.

 @thinkbike: One step up from the coil supreme will be the "Coyale with Cheese".

 @Whipperman: Correction they are called ERPs (enduro race packs)

 @adrennan: broduro???

 @scottlink: i thought we had settle on "endurbro" i cant keep up with these changing name standards

 I zip tied a coil spring to my singlespeed hardtail to increase it's enduro capabilities.

 @adrennan: en-derp-o

 @bishopsmike: If any industry people are paying attention, they should be writing that one down and putting a check in the mail to you. Too good mate

 @mikealive: the industry does not pay attention to Pinkbike comments. Otherwise we'd all have 26" wheels still. 26 ain't dead!

 @bishopsmike: You win the internet for today...Good one

 I'll never own this because I'll never sell my 11/6.

 @IamTheDogEzra: No on pink bike 26 ain't dead..It is everywhere else tho!

 @WAKIdesigns: yeah but Rogan needs to pack around his paraphernalia with him 24/7

 Sam Hill runs a super deluxe with custom grip shift remote and AVS Racing Hand Guards, there is a feature on his new bike for this years EWS. Just a warning for those enduro haters here, hehehe

 @bishopsmike: and it would have to be metric

 I just don't get, coil for light trail / enduro bikes and they haven't speced any weight specs

 @bogdanc: there is EXT Storia at 650g incl 400-450 super alloy spring for 216mm and then there is the rest at 550g without spring. Coils have their place and people who get it don't care about the weight. I actually find it weird that coils are making a come back because most people want a light bike. I personally piss on scale when it comes to things attached to the front triangle

 @WAKIdesigns: you can definitely feel 500 grams, even when its dead weight hanging on the bike if you climb more than 10 minutes on the bike. If your're pointing down mostly then it's your thing.

 @bogdanc: Yes you can feel the difference if you ride two bikes back to back which never happens in reality. At least that is not my idea of a day on the bike. You won't give a tiniest damn if it's a bike you use for months. I don't give a damn about 1,5kg and 40mm more travel in the rear. Because I have better geometry, suspension system and a MUCH better fluid dynamics management in my shock. I chose CCDB Coil over Air because it is more reliable (asked independent mechanics and tuners), has longer service intervals and is easier to setup. Air shock is lighter, doesn't require fiddling with buying springs and gives better bottom out control. All other characteristics are worse than comparable coil shock. But weight shaving in cycling has always been and will always be the priority for vast majority of people. I respect that.

 @bogdanc: i mean i notice that my bike weighs a fair amount but the parts have been chosen knowing they will weigh more. but the perfomance gains are worth it to me. it all comes down to personal taste. if i need to drop weight, my beer gut is where i will start the cuts.

 @fartymarty: have we watched pulp fiction too many times?

 @yeti-monster: you can never watch pulp fiction too many times.

 @Ziph: Until you buy your next frame and it's "Metric"

 @bngofast: nope, because push will just sell me the part to covert it to metric

 Only if its plus sized

 Sorry mate, unless it's also got super-boost and a proprietary shock mount then you might have to pay extra for modifications

 @WAKIdesigns: and if you meld the word "enduro" with different words, such as "broduro"

 nope, going to have to upgrade to metric

 Depends, do you have an adjustable stem?

 Feckin peng..apparantly..

 Also, no high/low speed rebound adjustment? Man, unless they explain otherwise, I'd say this is almost a step back for rockshox....

 @kev1n: Well, their design has always been towards the people that don't really want to fiddle with their suspension. Rockshox seems to be trying to do the "If it's perfect the first time around, you won't have to adjust anything" technique. Doesn't work for me, but that's why there are other companies out there. Works for some people, though.

 @kev1n: The rebound adjustment that it has is low speed rebound. Chances are it has a high speed rebound shim stack that just cannot be externally adjusted. I would be curious to know why you feel the need for an external adjustment high speed rebound to begin with.

 @stinky-d-lux: because, adjustments man! it can't possibly be good if there aren't a million adjustments.

 @stinky-d-lux: I was going to say, RS has been stepping forward by moving away from orifice damped suspension. By using a shim stack only, the shock will perform a lot better. Just make sure you get the shock tuned for your weight/bike.

External adjustments are just a band-aid for incorrect shim stacks.

I've heard rumors that this is going to be as much of an improvement over the last gen vivid as the last gen vivid was over the pre-2014.

 @kev1n: thats what hype and trend does to not just companies, but everyone

 @kev1n - I entirely agree. I expect the 'downhill' version of anything to offer high and low speed adjustments externally for racers to tune on a lap-by-lap basis for each track or even as the track evolves over the course of a race weekend. Moreover, I expect it to be more robust offering a larger air-spring volume to help compensate for temperature fluctuations experienced in downhill applications. So far as I can tell, this is literally the same shock they pitched to the consumer market a year ago as an all-mountain product, and now Rock Shox is saying to just go ahead and run it on your downhill bike too. :S

 My Float X2 rebound damper blew up on me in a parking lot test when I was trying to get simple tune in before it's first ride. Not to mention I've seen air cans - explode spewing hot oil everywhere, dampers give out, and eyelets snap off (granted it was mounted to an enduro). I haven't even ridden it on a trail yet but just for FOX and I to get back to neutral ground it better be perfect. Not impressed with the Float X2s reliability at all.

 @cwatt: the vivid has never had high and low speed adjustment. It's had beginning and ending stroke rebound, and low speed compression. Honestly I hardly even used the dual rebound either.

The boxxer gets by fine with LSC and rebound alone.

 Its metric but not just trunnion mount so maybe the right size can be found

 @Nobble: Rockshox has always used shim stacks. My Monarch Plus has a piston with a shim stack to control rebound. As I understand it there's a flow control ("orifice" I suppose) adjustment for compression on some Monarch models.

Also preloaded spring systems (which is what a shim stack is) are sometimes externally adjustable. The adjustment is how much preload to put on the spring. As I understand it that's how some twin tube designs work in the first place - spring loaded valve with adjustable preload.

 @Nobble: beginning and end stroke rebound is the same thing and high and low speed rebound.

Because it's only the pressure in the shock (be it IFP or spring pressure) the highest rebound speeds will be at the end of the stroke and the lowest speeds will be at the beginning of the stroke. So high/low speed rebound adjustment is the same as beginning/end stroke adjustment

 @Nobble: I should add that my Monarch most probably uses a combination of orifice and shim damping to control rebound. The orifice is for low speed rebound adjustments, and when a certain threshold is reach determined by the preload on the shim stack, the shims open and high speed damping occurs.

So I don't see why shim stacks compete with orifice damping for the same job.

 Its easy for most of you lighter riders to say we don't need too many adjustments, but I'm 210 pounds and my monarch debonair plus rt3 has way too low high speed compression and low speed compression for my wieght. I can adjust the low speed with the lever, but only in 3 positions so in the off i blow through all my travel, and the middle is just a little too stiff for the downhill.

 @hamncheez: Sounds like you need to add some bottomless bands to that thing to adjust the spring ramp. You shouldn't use HSC or LSC as a band-aid for the spring. Reducing the volume to increase the spring ramp should have a pretty drastic effect on the shocks feel. I'm 215 lbs without riding gear and stock tunes are never an issue for me. Granted I ride XL frames so the factory tune of the shock matches my weight. It's possible that yours is off based on your weight given the frame size your on.

Factory tune's for rear shocks are spec'd by the bike manufacturer. They do a bunch of testing to find a tune that should work well for most got a particular frame model and frame size. If you're short and dense, your probably on a small or medium frame. However, they didn't spec that shock to handle a rider as heavy as you and the result is you're under-damped. If your tall but scrawny you're likely on a large or XL frame to suit your height, but again that shock was tuned with a heavier rider in mind, so probably over-damped. It's impossible to get it right for everyone.

The easiest way to determine if your tune is off is probably by the rebound. If when your shock is at a pressure (and you have ramp correct) where you sit at ~30% sag, and the rebound needs to be wound all the way to the slowest setting, and it's still rebounding too fast, the tune is wrong. Same goes for riders on the very light side, if your rebound is wound all the way to the fastest setting but it still isn't rebounding fast enough, the tune is wrong.

Neither scenario is really the fault of the shock or the manufacturer for spec'ing that tune. Some riders just land on the fringe. This can happen with any OE shock from any manufacturer.

 @Nobble: beginning and end stroke rebound are just different names for high and low speed rebound.

 @stinky-d-lux: Its aftermarket, and for a while the debonair was only M/M tune. I run it with all bands in there, and at 300psi (the max my shock pump goes to). That puts it at about 25% sag, and I would prefer to run more but I still bottom on G-outs and any drop over 3 feet.

Coming from fox, I also dont' like the rebound. Its hard to put my finger on it, but I think the high speed rebound is too weak, because I get bucked if I case a landing or land flat.

 i just want to point out deity put out a big press release and answered all the questions and replied to most. rockshox puts out a press release and is no where to be seen in the comments.

 @hamncheez: Jesus! What bike is it installed on?

 @stinky-d-lux: enduro 29

 @kev1n:
If losing HS rebound pisses you off, you better sit down for this one:
They removed HS rebound AND compression on the Boxxer a few years ago.
I can understand not having HS rebound for the masses(most people don't need it so it just confuses them), but there's no excuse for taking away HS compression damping. Especially on DH forks.

 High speed compression/rebound adjust is just shim stack preload, which is not a terribly useful adjustment. What you likely *want* to adjust is the rate of the shim stack, which requires altering the shim stack, and can't be done with a knob.

 @dthomp325: It works fine on twin tube shocks. Since the rebound valve isn't on the piston, theres plenty of room to build the valve to work well with a spring preload.

 @cjkj1999: nice explanation never looked at it from that perspective. Thanks

 @hamncheez: Often what appears as a rebound issue is actually a spring or compression damping issue. From your description it sounds like you're slamming through travel and bouncing uncontrollably off the bottom out bumper. If you're at 25% sag + max volume reduction already and still bottoming super hard, you would probably benefit from some additional high speed compression damping. That would help slow you down through the full travel and prevent the rush to bottom that you're experiencing.

Of course your high speed rebound damping may still be too light for your bike leverage ratio and and the spring force you require. But to me it sounds like you might need a bit more HSC. Modifying HSC and/or HSR in a Monarch means changing shims.

As stinky-d-lux mentioned you're probably a rider just outside the limits of your current shock tune. A custom tune for your weight and riding style might make you happier.

 @hamncheez: That still seems cray to me. So does that mean you have 7 or 8 rings in there? You didn't put the rings on the negative spring side by accident did you?

 @stinky-d-lux: I hope not, the shop installed them

 @chillrider199: "Super Deluxe Coil RC World Cup is the metric replacement to the Vivid coil", Dude

 @Whipperman: oh youre f*cking kidding me? My bad... SRAM! I SWEAR TO GOD YOURE DESTROYING THIS SPORT AND IF YOU DONT STOP I FEEL LIKE YOURE GONNA GET IT HARD

 @chillrider199: Shhhhhhhhhh, don't worry. DVO has our backs, and fox is there for moral support. XFusion will give you loans and SR Suntour will make sure you are happy. We have a support system in place just for events like these.

 The Boxxer WC with Charger damper has the same adjustments, I guess they're matching it.

 @chillrider199: chill, rider (but i agree to an extent)

 @daweil: yeah Im starting to get comments like yours.. Im realizing that technology is making kinda unchill

 @Lookinforit: oh yeah just wanted to say that Fox cant be trusted. Even though I fanboy them more than RS, they specd a shit load of Giants bikes with a metric shock...

 RS two advantages: user serviceable, and sag gradients.

I do and I don't get metric shock sizing though.

 @gonecoastal: I think everyone is on the same page on understanding this stuff.

 @chillrider199: I don't follow...

Fox had no choice but to produce metric shocks or would lose out huge on OEM sales.

 @gonecoastal: I meant know one understands why metric is here. And yeah I was joking around about fox. I know they would lose a lot of money. They just said in an article a while back saying they wouldnt part take in the metric sizing. Long behold haha

 Yup, a distance is a distance, last time i checked it didn't give a shit what unit we applied to it. Can anyone convince me that, this is anything more then just planned obsolescence of old products, because the improvements i feel lately in most areas are very incremental

 @zion-i: I agree.. it seems odd that with all the fine tuning in length and strokes they brag about with metric sizing that you can't get an imperial equivalent...

 Well you can't buy them anyways so it shouldn't matter

 The big advantage has nothing to do with the "metric" marketing name. The advantages are all internal that were only made possible by slightly tweaking the overall lengths and stroke lengths. Bushing overlap and better sealing for increased reliability should be the biggest things you will see. Also having standard trunion mounted sizes is huge for frame designers. Just watch for the number of horst bikes that will switch to a trunion shock.

 Also note that this *should* allow some reductions in frame prices as scaleability between models is made a LOT easier from the frame design standpoint. I will likely have to eat my words when that design time reduction does not translate into cheaper bikes.

 The metric system allows for more accurate tolerances and an easier way to design all necessary parts. Plus the switch to the new metric eye to eye and stroke length makes it more easy for frame building companies to design their suspension systems since they don't have to work with these weird and totally random shock and stroke sizes.

 The metric name was a bad choice. The change in sizes make little to no difference in frame design. The new sizes allow for better bushing overlap and better sealing as well as less internal side loading (because of better bushing overlap)

Really and truly a better name would have been 2nd generation shocks rather than metric

 @cjkj1999: Serious question here, what are they talking about when they talk about a bushing? The quad ring + backup rings on the main air seals?

Maybe it's just the back up rings since they feel less compressible, and might kind of act like a bushing...?

 @cjkj1999: the change in sizing does allow better frame design.

 There seems to be a massive amount of misunderstanding about Metric shock sizing in this little convo. To clarify, the Imperial shock sizes used to come in 8-different lengths in random increments. It got that way because early suspension designers kept asking shock manufacturers for different (random) lengths and then furutre frames were being built around those random lengths. The new Metric sizing is an effort to provide realistic length increments (20mm) to make manufacturing and frame design simpler. It also happens to reflect certain design considerations that would benefit the customer like bushing overlap and such.

See Comparison Chart here: p.vitalmtb.com/photos/stories/2016/04/07/max_Metric_Shock_Sizing_711223.jpg?1460088654

See Full Article of Metric vs Imperial here: www.vitalmtb.com/features/The-Ultimate-Guide-to-Metric-Shock-Sizing-and-the-RockShox-Super-Deluxe,1349

 I almost forgot. Metric sizing also pushes forward Trunion mounting options where shocks can now have the same stroke in a shorter overall length. Once more, this allows frame designers to package their suspension designs smaller and also provides added benefits to the customer like allowing space for water bottle cages where water bottle cages couldn't exist before. Case and point - Evil Calling uses Trunion mount shock and has a bottle cage now. Evil Wreckoning uses Imperial shock sizing and lacks the space for a bottle cage. In the end, this change in sizing really benefits the industry first and the consumer second.

 @WaterBear: Not sure if you've ever done an air can service but on RockShox shocks there's a white glide ring that reduces friction between the main seal and the air can/the air can and the shaft. By having a larger distance between these you can make a shock that's stiffer laterally and less vulnerable to side loading

 @biker245: I agree that the trunnions mount makes some suspension layouts a bit better but changing a frame design to accommodate a different overall length isn't difficult.

The longer strokes that metric sizing typically offers reduces leverage rations which often leads to better feeling suspension

 @cwatt: Thank you for that. It answers my question.

@cjkj1999: I've rebuilt the damper on my Monarch Plus. cwatt's article agrees with you. The bushings on the damper seal head and piston are also supposed to be further apart now.

 For all the stupid "standards" we've seen the bike industry adopt over the past few years, Metric shock sizing is one which actually makes a whole lot of sense.

 The name isn't exactly new... The first RockShox Super Deluxe came out somewhere around 1996. mombat.org/97Rockshox8.jpg

 @mikekazimer: **Pedalen inserts foot into mouth**

 @mikekazimer:
So? Still a bullshit name.

 @mikekazimer: Had one of those on my '98 Giant ATX 990. Good times.

 I think they're going for the nostalgia of the riders who originally enjoyed the benefits that the Super Deluxe provided. Yeah, they were super issue-prone, but they had advantages over other options at the time. Get that market segment nostalgic to improve sales of a difficult and pointless-to-swallow pill (METRIC). RS is going to need all the help they can get to get us to embrace metric, but I said the same thing about the pointlessness of Boost, and here we are, riding Boost because frame manufacturers and hub manufacturers have colluded to get us to buy new setups for marginal (wish I could make the font smaller for that word) gains, if any at all. It costs us a lot more to switch frames and wheels than it does to buy a stiffer wheelset, but now I'm getting upset all over again... ugh. I might have Early Onset Grump, but $hit these pointless changes are really getting under my skin, for the sake of all of us.

 @erikkellison: you say they're pointless because you don't understand the advantages.

 @biker245: Please enlighten me. I genuinely want to know why we need to change standards again, and how metric can accomplish that in a way that nothing else can.

 @erikkellison: I just copied this from Brandon Turman since he spelled it out so well. the last paragraph sums it up well.

Every shock needs to be tuned to its frame. When a new frame is being made, the designer will send the kinematics to RockShox, who will then upload it into a sophisticated in-house program that spits out a recommended starting tune. This recommendation is based on many years of previous tunes on thousands of bikes, and typically gets them close to the desired ride feel. After some experimentation and ride testing by the frame company, RockShox will then visit the company to dial in the final tune by doing back-to-back runs on the company's preferred trails. In addition to figuring out various damping settings, part of this process is dialing in the air spring. Previously this meant choosing from a myriad of combinations involving two eyelets, three air cans, and a wide range of volume spacers. That's a lot of possible combinations.

The design of the Super Deluxe and Deluxe makes life easier as a frame designer because they reduce the number of options to two air cans (SoloAir and DebonAir) and a range of red-colored volume spacers (now called Tokens, like in their forks). As a rider this means you're more likely to get a shock and frame combo that really works. It also means getting a replacement shock will be easier if it's needed. We often talk about suspension performance in our bike reviews here on Vital MTB, and the chosen air spring has a big impact on that ride quality.



Picking the right air spring volume has a lot to do with how much progression (rise) a frame's suspension design has. Bikes that have a flat rate typically need small air volumes to resist harsh bottom-outs, and ultra rampy bikes need a high volume or riders may struggle to get full travel. With a huge range of suspension designs on the market, shocks need to work for a lot of bikes. Thanks to a machined eyelet, the Super Deluxe DebonAir volume is equivalent to a Monarch Plus DebonAir with a high volume eyelet, but can easily be reduced to the other side of the range using Tokens.

On a similar note, if a frame designer chooses to limit the stroke, the limiter automatically adjusts the air spring so it's consistent between sizes.

Another factor that can drastically impact a shock's total spring curve is the pressure behind the internal floating piston (IFP). It turns out the popular inline 7.875x2.25" (200x57mm) shock size - which originated at frame designers' requests - is so tightly packed inside that there is very little room for this charge to compress near bottom out (blue arrow). This results in a huge and unfavorable addition to the spring curve in a super rampy way.



Thanks to metric sizing, the inline Deluxe shock now has consistent room for gas compression across all sizes. This was actually a major driver of the sizes ultimately chosen. In combination with the air spring design, consistent gas compression room keeps the spring curve the same from shock to shock, size to size. All this consistency means it's easier to design suites of bikes, from short to long travel, that behave in a similar fashion. Previously designers had to consider how individual shock sizes interacted with a frame's kinematics, which made it more difficult and complicated than it needs to be.

 @mikekazimer: do you know the coil diameter? I called RS and they didn't even know, but it's different than the kage.

 I think they might just be on-board the marketing sells shit train,like any for profit business

 Hard to check all by yourself though, right?

 @marseer: just pull the bottom-out bumper up, sit on the bike, get off and look where the bumper stops.

 @marseer: I just push up the bottom out rubber an use that for a guide

 @marseer: Not really, you just need to set up an elaborate system of mirrors to allow you to check your sag whilst in a riding position on the bike...

 @dingus:I can't upvote this comment enough ^

 @marseer: What are friends for if not to check your measurements.

 @marseer: film it with your phone. Then watch it.

 Patience. Patrol sized shocks (230x65) are super common and will likely be the first aftermarket offering.

 push is at least close to a metric version i think. they have teased it on social media. but oem only is stupid.

 Good things come to those with patience...

 what's so wrong about an air shock that was released like a year ago that's more than ok for 99% of riders out there? if you really feel like you need a coil to be able to ride, maybe you just didn't take the time to adjust it properly?

 @tgr9: coils will always be more sensitive than an air shock and you dont deal with air pressure changing as you go down a run and the air heats up. coils work the same every time.

 Also want a coil for my patrol! come on RockShox!

 @tgr9: swapped my monarch plus on my last bike for a ccdb coil and it felt like a new rear end. Do you run in hiking boots when you ever experienced some high end running shoes?

 Yeah, they don't want just sell you a new shock. They want you to go with whole bike instead

 If you want it just buy a bike that comes with it then scrap what you don't need. Simple as that.

 216x64 is not a metric, it's the same size as 8.5x2.5.
Metric shocks that are around the same length/stroke are : 230x65 and 210x55.

You can purchase offset bushings for most frames that will allow for up to 4mm of eye to eye adjustment. That will still leave you with an eye to eye length of 10mm longer than your frame was designed around.

 @SoDiezl350: "216x64 is not a metric, it's the same size as 8.5x2.5."

That was the joke.

 @dingus: doh lol

 With Rockshox, not long, it's never very long. But since Fox, Cane Creek, Bos, Ohlin, PUSH and even Manitou sell better shocks aftermarket anyway who's really going to be affected? I can't remember the last time I heard someone get excited about upgrading to a Rockshox rear shock.

 @Fix-the-Spade:

Is BOS even a company anymore?

 @2bigwheels: That's a good questions. Forks and shocks are still coming around for people to sell, but the website seems to have gone poof. Maybe scratch Bos from that list.

 @Fix-the-Spade: Sad. Bos makes the best stuff I've ridden (though I haven't tried PUSH yet).

 This replacement doesn't look as burly as the vivid air. Looks like a trailbike shock, not a DH shock. Solution: X2!!!!!!

 DVO stuff looks so good. And they release their service manuals!

 @WaterBear: yup, their tech site is extremely helpful

 @jjwillTOmaui: and their customer service is absolutely top notch

 @wpplayer18: Getting stoked about some DVO. Really interested in putting their gear on my next bike!

 Been using the Jade on my Nomad for 2 years. Stellar shock. Glad to see a coil resurgence on trail bikes, although I never left as I'd never choose weight savings over performance

 @WaterBear: RS do too to be fair.

 And please 222mm

 Not yet, but the MY18 for bike brands is here and we'll start seeing new DH bikes that support metric sizes very soon.

 Propain Rage CF ????

 The new Propain Rage Carbon is.

 @bashhard: i will be just metric sizing.......got it ???

 @DropperPost: I don't care whether you measure yourself in metric or imperial.
I was referring to freebikeur's post which asked for a non-metric sized shock in DH sizes, because that's where metric sizing makes the least sense.

 Never mind. It's because they're completely changing the sizes. Welp, that's lame.

 @jayacheess: probably changing hub sizes again too

 @MX298: since 150 and 148 are already taken it will have to be 149mm. The benefits that will bring are unbelievable...

 @winko: The rigidity of the 150 paired with the compactness and lightness of the 148, the best of both worlds!

 If you bring out a new sizing standard that is meant to simplify product ranges it's pretty obvious why they don't make their new shocks in the older sizes as well.

 Price?

 performance!

 You can't buy them.

 I guess that will be the Inline version that they'll release in a year for AM and trail bikes

 They look peng