Rocky Mountain Slayer 790 MSL - Review

Feb 6, 2017
by Mike Levy  




The name may be the same but the bike sure isn't. Rocky Mountain's Slayer returns after a two-year hiatus, this time with 165mm of travel and a design the Canadian company says is ready for everything from EWS racing to ''bike park laps and big mountain lines,'' a claim that's reinforced by the 170mm-travel Fox 36 on the front of our 790 MSL test bike. The new frame is carbon fiber from front to back, including the rocker link, chainstays, and seatstays, and it also features a revised version of Rocky's Smoothlink suspension system.

It's the high-end 790 MSL reviewed below that, with the best Fox has to offer, goes for $6,999 USD. Dream-worthy, for sure, but you don't need to spend that much to get the same frame and slack geometry. The 2017 Slayer is available in four flavors, starting off with the 730 MSL that goes for $4,199 USD, and all of those models are assembled around the same carbon fiber frame that's also available on its own for $3,199 USD with a Fox Float X2 shock.
Slayer 790 MSL Details

• Intended use: enduro / all-mountain
• Wheel size: 27.5''
• Rear wheel travel: 165mm
• Full carbon fiber frame
• Ride-4 adjustable geometry
• 1x-specific
• Sizes: S / M / L (tested) / XL
• Weight: 29lbs 10oz (L)
• MSRP: $6,999 USD.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
The carbon frame is 1x-specific, makes use of Boost hub spacing, and also has room for 26'' x 3'' rubber. Break out those Gazzaloddi tires you've been hoarding.


Frame Details

The Slayer's carbon fiber frame, which is all-new and made in the same factory as Rocky's other carbon bikes, shares a similar appearance to the company's Maiden DH rig, with a vertically-mounted shock compared to Rocky's less well-endowed bikes that employ a top tube-mounted rocker link and horizontal shock. Just like its bigger brother, the Slayer also gets the carbon treatment for the rocker link, both its chainstays and seat stays, as well as the pared-down Ride-4 geometry adjusting chip at the lower shock mount. If you think that the 165mm-travel Slayer is a 'Honey I Shrunk the Kids' version of the 200mm-travel Maiden, you're on the right path.

Another similarity between the Maiden and the new Slayer is the use of bearings rather than the bushing system found on many of Rocky's shorter-travel bikes. According to Brian Park, Rocky Mountain's marketing manager, ''The move to bearings on Slayer came about from our desire to make the back end narrower, even with Boost spacing.'' The slim, one-sided pivot design apparently wouldn't have been doable had they gone with bushings.

There's one other place where bearings have been used - on the upper shock mount. Why not on both ends? Rocky says this is because only the top mount sees noticeable rotation, so it makes sense to only use it there.
Rocky Mountain Slayer review
The upper shock mount employs sealed bearings to cut down on friction.

The Slayer is 1x-specific, and with no need to accommodate a derailleur, the bike's designers moved its main pivot out laterally into that real estate to create more frame rigidity. However, this was where the upper ISCG 05 chain guide tab would usually call home, so now there are just two lower tabs that are still spaced as if it was a standard ISCG 05 setup. e*thirteen has a guide to fit already, and the bike comes with a tiny bolt-on guide that sits atop the Slayer's chainstay. Also, some sort of taco-style protection can be bolted into the two remaining chain guide tabs if you're worried about 50/50'ing jumps.


Adjustable Geometry

Rocky Mountain's shorter-travel bikes employ an adjustable geometry and suspension setup called Ride-9 that lets the owner tune the bike's suspension and handling independently, in nine different ways. It's a clever system, but it's also one that requires some trial and error to get the most out of it. The Slayer sports a less complicated version, called Ride-4, that tunes the bike's geometry four ways without changing its suspension action. It provides just over a full degree of head and seat-tube angle adjustment, as well as 15mm of bottom bracket height change, and suspension ramp-up can be tuned independently via volume spacers as required.



Rocky Mountain was also one of the first companies to start using relatively steep seat angles, something that continues with the Slayer. They've also designed the bike with a short seat mast to provide room for the new long-travel dropper posts that are coming out.


Rocky Mountain Slayer



The Slayer's Suspension Explained

Rocky Mountain has long used the Smoothlink name when talking about their full-suspension designs, and many have come to associate that moniker with an axle pivot that sits above or close to in-line with the bike's axle. But this is obviously not the case on the 165mm-travel Slayer, as it relies on a more traditional four-bar layout where the pivot sits well below the axle line. The Smoothlink name remains, though. Asking if the change has anything to do with the expiration of the Horst Link patent seems like a reasonable question, then.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
The rocker link and vertical shock give the bike similar lines as the Maiden, and a very different appearance to the rest of Rocky's range.


Park replies to that query: ''Today we use Smoothink to describe our design philosophy and the ride characteristics we try to achieve with every model. In general, that means that our bikes are more supple during climbs and across a wider range of gears than our competitors while having a controlled end-stroke and the typical Rocky Mountain ride feel of being more capable than the travel indicates. At this stage, we let the chainstay pivot fall where it needs to fall in order to achieve the anti-squat, axle path, chain growth, rate curve, anti-rise, etc... that we're looking for.''

In other words, Park is saying that the name doesn't define the design.

There are also only so many ways to get the job done, of course, which can lead to the age-old ''looks like a Session'' comment that's taken on a life of its own. ''The suspension kinematics of today have moved past the dogmatic battle between FSR vs. VPP vs. DW, etc...,'' says Park. ''Suspension design is a game of millimeters, and while some systems may look similar, riding them will quickly set them apart.'' Rocky says that they focused on creating support at the Slayer's sag point, something that can often make for a lively feeling and relatively playful bike, and that the Slayer's suspension ramps up in a moderately progressive curve. The idea is consistency over the whole stroke instead of a steep ramp-up at the end of it.
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
The dropout pivot is located well below the bike's axle line, but Rocky says that it's still a Smoothlink design.




3 Questions With Rocky's Brian Park


Mike Levy: You've spec'd a 170mm-travel fork on all four complete Slayer builds but we've seen many EWS races won on 160mm-travel (or less) bikes with 160mm-travel forks. Don't you think a 170mm fork could be overkill for many riders?

Brian Park: 165/170mm is the sweet spot for certain tracks and riders, especially people who plow through trail chunder rather than dance over it. The Slayer is light and pedals super well, so for a lot of riders, it's worth having just a little more capability. We'll be making both the Altitude and Slayer available to our EWS team next year.


Levy: The Slayer has quite a bit of anti-squat and a steep seat angle, both to presumably make the bike a relatively good climber. How hard is it to balance this with the bike's main intention, which is obviously to come back down?

Park: Call the Slayer 65% downhill biased, but it was critical to us that it pedal and climb well. During mule testing when we nailed down the anti-squat and angles, the climbing performance was one of the things that gave us the confidence to have our EWS team ride it. It may be a tired marketing cliché to say a bike "climbs like an XC bike and descends like a DH bike," but it's what all manufacturers are aiming for with a bike like the Slayer. So yeah, it was hard to balance and make sure the descending performance didn't suffer, but we think the Slayer hits the sweet spot.


Levy: Not to take the shine off the carbon Slayer, but you have to assume that a lot of riders are pining for a less expensive alloy frame. So, when will we see that?

Park: An alloy Slayer is something we're strongly considering for the future.




Specifications
Specifications
Release Date 2016
Price $6999
Travel 165
Rear Shock FOX FLOAT X2 EVOL FACTORY 165MM
Fork FOX 36 FLOAT RC2 FACTORY 170MM
Headset FSA ORBIT NO.57E
Cassette SHIMANO XT 11-46T
Crankarms RACE FACE TURBINE
Chainguide OCKY MOUNTAIN MICRO GUIDE
Rear Derailleur SHIMANO XTR
Chain SHIMANO HG-900
Shifter Pods SHIMANO XTR
Handlebar RACE FACE SIXC 800MM
Stem ROCKY MOUNTAIN AM CNC
Grips ROCKY MOUNTAIN LOCK ON XC
Brakes SHIMANO SAINT
Hubs DT SWISS 350 / ROCKY MOUNTAIN BOOST
Spokes WTB 1.8-1.6
Rim STAN'S ZTR FLOW TUBELESS READY
Tires MAXXIS DHF 27.5 X 2.5 3C TR
Seat WTB SILVERADO RACE
Seatpost ROCKSHOX REVERB STEALTH 170MM 30.9MM
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore









Climbing

When I first got my hands on the 2017 Slayer, I was in Whistler for the annual drink and skid fest otherwise known as Crankworx. As such, the 165mm-travel bike was kept in its most relaxed geometry position since that seemed fitting given where and how I was riding the bike. I did work my way up a few long, nasty climbs on Whistler's neighbor, Blackcomb, sans chairlift, but I wasn't really thinking too much about how the new enduro race-inspired beast from Rocky Mountain handled those tasks. Funny how a week in Whistler will do that to someone.

But now that I've had the bike back on my home trails for months on end, riding mountains that I unashamedly love to climb to the top of via my own steam, the Slayer's climbing abilities are more in the spotlight. And what do I think? I'm impressed, but I certainly wasn't until I made some changes to the bike's geometry. I had left the bike in its slackest, 64.5-degree head angle, a number that was only seen on downhill bikes a few short years ago, and, as you'd expect, it was a handful on anything remotely technical. My favorite local climb requires roughly an hour or so of hard work, and while none of it is insanely challenging, there's a load of switchbacks that seem to take riders up and back in equal amounts, and a few low-speed power moves that can test the quads in the off-season. No surprise, then, that the Slayer didn't exactly slay any of those ups when in its most down-friendly setting, and it was probably even worse than I had expected. Yes, I know it's not made for such things, but it's certainly something to keep in mind if you pedal up tricky singletrack to get to the goods.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Don't let the appearance fool you, because this big rig can climb quite well thanks to it being very efficient.


The Slayer was practically a different bike when I rotated the chip so to attain a 65.85-degree head angle, though. Just over one degree steeper up front, along with an even steeper seat angle, transformed the bike from frustrating to fun. Yes, I actually had fun pedaling the Slayer up some heinous climbs. It still requires a heavier hand on steep sections than something like an Arktos or even a Slash, but that's to be expected. The steep seat angle naturally moved my weight forward, which helps, and I'd still further exaggerate this until the nose of the seat was close to checking out my colon on ultra-steep pitches. Bottom line: I no longer dreaded getting the blue and yellow beast up the mountain.

In Whistler during Crankworx, I questioned Rocky's choice to spec Fox's Float X2 shock without the slick low-speed compression lever add-on to act as a pedal assist. Truth be told, I didn't end up doing a ton of climbing, and I was too busy trying to keep the bike pointing in the right direction (it was in the slack setting) to really think about what was happening below me. And what was happening below me? Not much, which is a very good thing. Rocky says that the bike's Smoothlink suspension employs a good amount of anti-squat (chain-induced suspension firming), and that makes for a bike that I expected to pedal like shit pedal like anything but shit. In fact, it's the most efficient enduro-focused bike I can remember riding.
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
The steeper geometry setting helps to make the Slayer more manageable on climbs, as you'd expect, but it also doesn't take away from its descending prowess.

When it comes to climbing mountains aboard the Slayer, setup is absolutely key, more so than on any other bike I've been on recently. I know that a lot of riders automatically go straight to the most bro-brah setting, aka the slackest angles, but do yourself a favor if you own a Slayer and give the opposite a try. The bike pedals well enough that it'll be its angles that hold it back (more on that later, though) rather than gushy suspension feel, and Rocky's Ride-4 system lets you control that so best to take advantage of it.



Descending and Suspension

With the 150mm-travel Altitude in their catalog, Rocky Mountain was free to create a bike with much more bias towards descending than if it also had to do double-duty as a burly trail bike. So that's exactly what they did when designing the Slayer, and the result is, somewhat predictably, an absolute beast on the downhills. I know, that's not exactly news, and you're not exactly surprised, but the Slayer isn't exactly just a slacked out mini-DH bike with a dropper post. It's also a very different beast compared to a Slash, Sanction, Enduro and the rest of the enduro-gang.

Those three examples, while each being a fiend in their own right, can't claim to have the poppy and playful abilities of the Slayer. To say that I'm surprised by how much fun the big Slayer was to ride in places that it probably shouldn't be would be an understatement.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
The Slayer eats up chunky terrain like it's peanut butter, regardless of what geo setting the bike is set to.


If you've read a decent amount of my thoughts on bikes before this, you might already be aware of my preference for a shorter travel, playful bike over something that's more forgiving, a bias that I'll fully admit to coloring some of my opinions. And that's why, at least early in the test, I wasn't overly excited about the yellow and blue Rocky Mountain; I was expecting a ultra-plush bike that would only soak up all my efforts to be a complete goober concerning line choices and playing around. I was completely wrong about that, however, especially after I tinkered with the bike's Ride-4 geometry chip.

In the slack setting the Slayer is essentially a downhill bike. It can go through anything, and it will be the man rather than the machine that determines what's going to happen. But in this mode, it takes some real speed and skill to make the most out of it, especially because of the relaxed geo and 170mm Fox 36 that require some proper downward trail angle, or at least some proper weight up front, in order to get a good feel from the front of the bike. If you're not over the front, or on terrain worthy of the bike's angles, it will tend to push and feel vague, which is where the very useful Ride-4 system comes in.

After my time in Whistler and a month or so at home with the Slayer in its slackest setting, I flipped the lower shock mount insert to engage the steeper, 65.85-degree head angle. It immediately felt like I was on a different bike, one that was much more fun, lively and willing to do as I asked. This was also surely aided by the very impressive efficiency. Gone was the Slayer's tendency to feel awkward on slow corners, with it now wanting to dive in and out of any type of bend with ease and a surprising amount of agility, much more so than most other rigs focused on enduro racing. The best part? The damn thing still felt just as capable when the trail got vertical, fast, and scary.
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Given its enduro racing intentions, it's no surprise that the Slayer is comfy at speed on any type of trail.

I've said that adjustable geometry is a silly thing, and I still believe that holds true in most cases, but this marks the second time that I was wrong about the Slayer. Thankfully, me being wrong is a very good thing. If you either already own a Slayer or are thinking of picking one up, do yourself a favor and spend time riding the bike in the steeper setting - you'll be surprised.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Low pressures and low damping; the Float X2 works best with the Slayer when its circuits are nearly fully open.


The Slayer's rear-end is interesting in that it's not quite as forgiving as you'd expect given the bike's 165mm of travel, and that it also works best with the Float X2's damper adjustments backed mostly out. Don't get me wrong, 165mm is still 165mm, but the top third of the Slayer's suspension seemed to feed a touch more feedback through to the bike (and rider) than some other machines, even at the suggested shock settings. This is likely due to the relatively high amount of anti-squat built into the design, which is also the reason that the Slayer pedals so freaking well and is surprisingly playful in the right setting. Hey, you can't have it all. Adding too much low-speed compression does nothing to help the already crazy good pedaling manners, but it will add harshness. My final settings were as follows: 160 PSI in the Float X2 to deliver 22mm of sag, eleven clicks out on LSR, thirteen out on HSR, eighteen out on LSC, and sixteen out on HSC, which are all very close to what Rocky Mountain recommends.

There's also a decent amount of progression with four or five volume spacers in the shock's air can, but larger riders might find themselves maxed out in that regard. As suggested by Rocky, 22mm of sag seemed spot-on for me, with full travel being used in those 'oh shit' moments when I thought I wasn't going to be able to hold on yet always managed to keep it together. I also experimented with running 20mm of sag but, truth be told, this seemed like a waste of time given how well the Slayer pedals regardless. The damn thing would probably be full of spunk with fifty-percent sag, although sneaking in enough pedal strokes to get moving might be hard. Don't do that, but do go with 22mm and call it a day.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore


Technical Report

• Maxxis Minion WT Tires: It shouldn't be a surprise that a tire that was already pretty damn good in a standard width is even better when it's made to suit modern wide-ish rims, and that's exactly what Maxxis has done with the Wide Trail variation of their popular Minion rubber. The 2.5'' wide Minion DHF WT tires on the Slayer, with their better-supported side lugs, are pretty unreal in most conditions. I ended up running between 17 and 23 psi, depending on the trail and the weather, and I quickly realized that it was hard to fault them in the traction department. They obviously don't roll quickly, but they make perfect sense on a bike like the Slayer.


• 170mm RockShox Reverb: Something else that makes perfect sense on the Slayer is its 170mm-travel Reverb. The big Rocky has travel and angles that are above a lot of riders' skill grade, which will likely lead to most Slayer owners pushing their own skills to new heights. Best to have the seat as far out of the way as possible, then; and the 170mm of drop works only because Rocky designed the Slayer with such a low seat mast. Unfortunately, the post developed a bit of sag after only ten rides or so. It hasn't gotten any worse, but it's still a bummer given that it's such a key component on the bike.


Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Rocky Mountain Slayer Photo James Lissimore
Rocky Mountain has, appropriately enough, spec'd the 790 MSL with great rubber and a 170mm-travel dropper post.


• Clang Clang: If there were ever a bear-proof bike, it'd be the Slayer. The chain slap, likely exacerbated by the relatively high amount of anti-squat designed into the bike's suspension, is loud enough that riders behind me would comment on it. A chain guide with a lower roller would no doubt help, as would liberal amounts of extra padding on the drive-side chain stay, or you could just leave it and never have to worry about being attacked by a startled animal.


• Fox Suspension: There's not much, or anything, between Fox's and RockShox's high-end suspension these days, and it really only comes down to how many adjustments you want to tinker with. The 790 MSL comes with the best from Fox, and the 36 fork and Float X2 shock performed as well as you'd expect while being incredibly adjustable. I did end up with the X2's damper adjustments backed almost completely out, so an even lighter or less aggressive rider may find themselves at the far end of the tuning scale. Also, the Float X2 on my early production Slayer had one of those exploding air cans fitted to it that forced me to park the bike until that was sorted out. No, it never blew up while I had it.



Pinkbike's Take:
bigquotesThe Slayer is all about surprises. What I expected was a capable but routine enduro race bike with more brawn than brains; what I got was a bike that's not just capable but also exceedingly versatile. Yes, there's a lot of suspension and geometry on tap, enough for any racer's needs, but the Slayer's effective geo adjustment and remarkably good pedaling manners make it far more than just another enduro bike. - Mike Levy




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About the Reviewer
Age: 36 • Height: 5'10” • Inseam: 33" • Weight: 165lb • Industry affiliations / sponsors: None • Instagram: killed_by_death

Mike Levy spent most of the 90s and early 2000s racing downhill bikes and building ill-considered jumps in the woods of British Columbia before realizing that bikes could also be pedaled for hours on end to get to some pretty cool places. These days he spends most of his time doing exactly that, preferring to ride test bikes way out in the local hills rather than any bike park. Over ten years as a professional mechanic before making the move to Pinkbike means that his enthusiasm for two wheels extends beyond simply riding on them, and his appreciation for all things technical is an attribute that meshes nicely with his role of Technical Editor at Pinkbike.



308 Comments

  • + 57
 Definitely looks like a... bike you could shred some serious trails on.
  • + 41
 Carbon Slayer is a disgrace. Slayer is synonymous with metal.
  • + 12
 Hey Mister Rocky Mountain. I still have my "old" Slayer SXC30 that I ride in the french and spanish Pyrenees mountains and it just works damn perfect, especially with a 170mm RS Lyrik RC2DH. My frame is 100% alloy, made in Canada (2008 version)... and it's still alive, without the least play or crack!!!

So: when will you be smart enough to release an aluminium version of your new Slayer????
Me like lots of my fellow-riders will never buy a carbon frame for the reasons we know.
I'm actually very disappointed that you didn't think about that.
May be I'll look for a Commençal framekit instead, for exemple...
I'm disappointed by RM.
Respect anyway.
  • + 3
 My friend I also had the slayer sxc. I ended up on a Banshee Rune and it was the best decision I have made. Never been a fan of carbon as well.
  • + 8
 If you read the article you'd see that RM is strongly considering an alloy slayer in the future.
  • + 4
 Guerrilla Gravity is another option
  • + 4
 Canfield too
  • + 2
 I've traveled all over the world and at every place I've been where there is riding always seems to be at least one guy still riding an sxc. were those bikes really that good?
  • + 2
 The article clearly states their going to sell an alloy frame. Small company, small budget, can't release many bikes at once.
  • + 3
 @fercho25: they had a fairly progressive geometry with a slack HA that gave you good confidence pointed downhill. not the greatest for climbing but who cares because it was a blast to ride the fun bits.
  • + 14
 Looks like a Slayer
  • - 5
flag station (Feb 6, 2017 at 6:14) (Below Threshold)
 Look like à norco range ...
  • + 1
 @2bigwheels: I'm going to use the pink fatty thing in the top of my skull and go ahead and say he was referring to the carbon one. With that said, he's still rather far off
  • + 1
 @station: No no no. The carbon Norco's have snapped bits so it's easy to tell them apart. Take a look at one on the Norco website. Oh wait, you can't. They've been pulled. :p
  • + 3
 @shredb4dead: More like 'omitted' because the 2017 Range carbon isn't out yet...
  • + 0
 @dangerousdave: If that's how you want to spin it. Feel free to buy one. Should be some good deals on 2016's
  • + 9
 @mikelevy thanks for a great review....as usual! Can you tell us the status of that "other" bike the EWS team can ride in 2017, the Altitude? Rocky only shows 2016 bikes on their website... is a new Altitude coming?? While i love the idea of the Slayer, my trails near home are much more Altitide friendly...
  • + 2
 @AverageAdventurer: Perhaps your prediction will ring true, given the direction many bikes head these days... However, something will need to set it apart from the Slayer other than just 10mm less travel. Stick with 27, or go with 29? Something that is burlier than Rocky's Instinct trail bike, and more like Yeti's 5.5c? Given their current range of bikes, Rocky can go in a number of directions with the Altitude. But so far, all is quiet... @RockyMountainBicycles we are waiting Wink
  • + 5
 @mikelevy
One thing I just can't get is why they build an enduro superbike with this much pedal kick-back (20 degrees @ 160 mm) and a trail bike (Altitude) with so low AS and PKB (5 degrees a @ 140 mm)...
I demoed an Altitude 2 years ago and found the suspension was a blast, tracking and climbing everything.
If I spend 5000 bucks for an enduro bike (I did), I really don't mind how good it pedal since I can fix that with shock magic (i.e. climb switch or others) but I want the suspension to be the more efficient and free doing its downhill duty, i.e. no compromise towards pedalling efficiency...
If somebody can explain this trend (big bikes with high AS and PKB, like Norco Range, Pivot Firebird, Yeti SB6c, etc...), I will be happy.
By the way, Norco seems to come back from this trend with the new Sight...
  • + 1
 @AverageAdventurer: is this really true what you are saying? Really love that thought as I think the Slayer is absolutely awesome but its just too close to my new DH rig Propain Rage CF. So the future Altitude could really replace my current 2015 Slash 9.8, that I am planning to run for another season or two. An 160/150 with 27.5 or even 29 enduro bike (would love a lockout remote for the enduroraces) would be exactly what Im looking for by then! Please tell me you are not just making this (new Altitude will be very similar to Slayer) up!
  • + 1
 @Foxy87: Yes he is saying the truth! But why are you saying that it will be very similar to the Slayer? I would have loved a mini Slayer but it will be more like a big Element.
  • + 1
 @Timo82: because he says the geo will be pretty similar and there is more like an overlap between the two bikes. Why wouldnt I say they are similar? How can he speak the truth but at the same time you are saying the bikes arent similar? I would love a mini Slayer as well and if its true what AverageAdventure writes, I think this is exactly what we are getting.
You are refering to the Element: Does this mean the new Altitude will be a 29er?
I would love an EWS Race machine but have no need of beeing bike park dh capable, this I have my DH rig for. I want a light, capable enduro race bike and I think the new Altitude could be it.
  • + 1
 @AverageAdventurer: Big Element? But then it really has to step up a lot (from it) I think. Ok, so definitely no 29er? Too bad, wouldnt mind a Long travel 29er. Rocky doesnt have one in their line up and I think they need to compete with other brands such as TREK or SPEC or EVIL.
So when do you think can we expect the presentation of the new Altitude? Still this summer? Rally Edition?
Well Rocky is saying both bikes will compete in the EWS, that makes me confident that the new Altitude will be very capable nontheless.
  • + 1
 @gnralized: AS isnt just that dramatic i think. the norco range have a high amount of AS with a small front ring, like 30. i ride it with a 34 oval ring and there is NO kickback in small gears (11-25). in the highest gear u can feel a little kickback but it doesnt disturb the ride. overall the suspension works very well. this design results in a playful bike & funny bike. when you hit the pedals u can feel the forward motion.
the newer bikes like pivot and slayer are just even better.
  • + 1
 @weaknesseightyeight:
I owned one of the first sight 650b (yellow one) which became my wife's bike set with a compact shimano 3x10 and it worked very well. Then I bought a range with 1x11 with 30 ring, and I never feel good onboard. I ride a lot of slow, techy, rooty trails and it definitively show the weakness of the suspension as it becomes literally blocked when I needed traction and steepens the head angle. Worst OTB count with this bike.
Then I bought a warden and my life changed...
  • + 1
 @Foxy87: I don't know about the geo... I was talking more about the frame, as we had hear this past fall that it would be a fully new bike, like the slayer. It will pretty much be like it is now but with some tweaks.
  • + 1
 @Timo82: that would be perfect! Add 10mm to TT length, 20mm to reach, knock 1 to 1.5 degrees off head angle, add Boost, shorten seat tube length so a 150 dropper works, and call it a day. But keep the purple paint!
  • + 1
 @sospeedy: Purple paint with black sticker like their new fat bike!! :O My friend has the rally edition you're talking about but too small for me to try it! Frown He really likes it... 1.5° off head angle seems a lot, no?!

What really bugs me with Rocky Mountain is that I have to go with an XL, same as Santa Cruz.. but then it's like driving a bus!
  • + 8
 Bought my dad a Rocky mountain Thunderbolt in 2014 and the British sounding dude of a certain Abbostford shop couldn't shut the hell up about "smooth link" and that because the axle was slightly below the chainstay pivot it tremendously changed the feel of the ride compared to other FSR like designs. He also spent a solid 20 minutes shitting on a numerous amount of other bike companies who he felt had inferior suspension designs... "Buddy I'm here to buy a f*cking bike my dad wanted, I don't care what you think just charge my card and let me get home before rush hour"

Come 2017 the pivot is now below the axle on RM's most popular models rebirth and from what I can tell their new answer to the bike that can do it all.

Would love to go have a chat with him and see what he says now about the axle position.


That all being said... Gotta admit, this is a fine looking bike and I would love to ride one!
  • + 4
 oh my gawd! You went to a shop and the salesman gave you his opinion. What were you expecting?
  • + 1
 @whitebirdfeathers: he's a mechanic...

Anyways been to many shops that don't have employees shitting on other companies. But hey maybe you are okay with it.
  • + 1
 Got to agree.. once I was on a Trek testival and the guy showing the bikes wouldnt shut up about "active braking pivot same place as the rear axle full floater link re:aktiv penske motor racing bla bla".
Of course I'm sure theres a lot of R&D going into it, and I find Trek suspensions to be especially supple (demoed a 2015 Remedy and Slash), but its not the OMG ANOTHERWORLD feeling to it as they make it out to be. I personally hated the amount of antisquat (I think it is, but could be something else, please correct me because I havent read anything about this anywhere); every time when I hammered the pedals with the shock full open, you did get a feeling of someone pedalling the opposite way against me. I prefer a "honest" design where it just bobs a bit when pedalling, and then you use a compression lever to turn the shock off. Rant over
  • + 2
 @daweil: Fun fact. I am on the new Trek Fuel! haha ABP is just split pivot with a name to prevent getting taken to court.. which inevitably ended up happening anyways and Trek got out alive.

I have only been at a trek dealer shop since 2014 so I can only comment from there and I can tell you that there has been very little anti squat designed into their suspension so I doubt that's what you were feeling. when the DRCV shock got the Re:Activ damper it really didn't make the bikes feel any better from the poop feel I felt the DRCV had always felt like. My hunch was you just felt it pedaled like poop because if you were anything like me, you couldn't figure out how to make the DRCV not feel numb, dead and squishy even after being told you could leave it in the open position.

Fast forward to 2017 and the Re:activ was put back into just a normal shock and trek did away with DRCV and f*ck me now I finally understand what they were raving about when it came to the regressive damper. I have never been a fan of how trek markets shit because honestly it just feels too much like a bloody infomercial . But yeah, go get on a new fuel or Remedy set that rear shock to about 25% sag and go try it out, it's pretty dang cool.

My trek fuel with a swapped out fork for a 150mm pike is the first time I have actually enjoyed riding a Trek, them engineers over there have finally nailed it I feel.
  • + 2
 @2bigwheels: thanks for the explanation, also my opinion on the 2015 bikes in general.
A few months ago I actually tested the top end fuel ex plus, the first time I tried a plus bike, and it was pretty amazing, did definetely feel much more capable than 130mm - it was a wet day so the tires were sliding around everywhere (plus is cool but nothing for me if was the only bike I own) , but the geometry, frame, suspension were pretty amazing and felt much better than the 2015 models.
I fully believe that with your longer travel fork it's an amazing do-it-all bike Smile
  • + 1
 @daweil: I also went with the 29er model and not the 27.5 and just run 2.4 tires.

Cheers!
  • + 8
 i think it is still funny-in a sad way. what i was refering too is the whole climbs like xc..thing, every company claims that their new bike is the best or the best possible compromise -im sick of it
  • + 2
 Haha yep can't be true.
  • + 7
 why would i ever buy such a bike? honestly i dont get the pricing of canadian and us bikebrands. why would i pay thousands of euros or dollars for nothing but brands image?
i just bought a new radon swoop for exactly ONE THIRD of the price of a evenly specced slayer ..
  • + 285
 A bike is a completely optional purchase, by your logic, you could have saved 100% of the cost by not buying one. Its not all about getting ze most efficient value to performance ratio. Sometimes its about getting the bike you want to ride and nothing else.
  • + 16
 While i totally agree brand image comes with too much of a premium, there's a certain amount of extra quality that goes into the "Brands" over cheaper alternatives that are building their bikes to meet a price point.

Its not all about spec, i'd rather buy a better bike with less spec and a better frame as most parts like gears and brakes and wheels all work perfectly fine and can always be upgraded later, decent suspension is a must though.

its like with cars, yes you can buy a cheap car for reasonable money and i'm sure it will be a great but jump in one of the more premium brands and its just nicer, and people are willing to pay the premium for that.
  • - 9
flag maxx-x (Feb 6, 2017 at 1:04) (Below Threshold)
 @bluumax: how is buying a bike optional? i d say not having a bike is not an option for anyone here Smile

and i am just wondering that people are willing and able to pay 4000-5000 bucks for nothing but image. i can see they obviously are.. but still.. i dont get it. i mean i would instantly buy such a good looking bike if the difference was 500 or maybe 1000 bucks but not 4500 more.
  • + 59
 With all due respect the only German brand I can look at is YT. I can eventually swallow Canyon Sender. Every other thing, particularly Cube make me die inside everytime I look at one. I don't judge people riding Canyons Radons, I know a few rad dudes on them, but I personally would never ever get one. Low price is not a virtue in my eyes, just like high price doesn't mean exceptional quality to me (Intense, Enve) - I just like or dislike certain bikes and can't tell why. And so do many many people. And we are prepared to pay extra for it. Or rather normal price... A I would love to have a bike called Slayer.

However... I do agree with you that RM pricing is off, since they are not a boutique brand like SC or Yeti. Frameset costs more than S-Works, Antidote, Trek 9.9. Not with these colors.
  • + 39
 @WAKIdesigns: While the slayer isn't cheap the top spec Trek slash is $9000usd and they are one of the biggest brands out there, if anyone should be getting stick for pricing its trek, they are extortionate.

Also Yeti may be boutique but their prices are ludicrous, most boutique frames seem to have reached £3k these days which is bad enough but yeti have the cheek to charge £3,700 (4,600 usd) for a frame!!! who pays that
  • + 7
 The problem with this reasoning is that the amount of travel does not really tell much about how bikes rides. Swoop for example is a bike with a very linear suspension and moderate anti-squat, which means it will suck every bump, but will never be poppy or playful. Not everyone likes such bikes.
  • + 12
 @WAKIdesigns: calling sc & yeti boutique brands... that's so spot on.
  • + 71
 @WAKIdesigns: What else would you eventually swallow?
  • + 10
 @WAKIdesigns: Each to their own. To me its all about performance v value and nothing about branding. So, based on reviews of the Radon Swoop, I'd happily buy one and feel very smug every time I passed someone on an $8000 Enduro/Slash/Slayer...If the reviews of the Swoop were poor, I'd spend elsewhere like YT etc...
  • + 31
 I reckon one should always buy the bike based on what gets you stoked the most. A bike should give you the feeling of "Goddamn I wanna go shred just now!" the moment you look at it.

For some, that might be superior value for money (German brands usually), for some it might be the best aesthetics (Yeti, SC, Evil...), for some just the company being super rad etc (Transition), for some it might be having the most exclusive ride out there (top of the line Trek Slash or something) and so on. Bikes all tend to be so good these days (well, at least the ones I've been able to try out lately) that you can really base your decision on just about anything and end up with a bike you love to shred on.
  • + 0
 @lkubica: ridden one? still lots of fun Wink i admit its closer to a dh-bike than to a trailbike however that was not my point.. i am sure you can find enough bikes with similar pricing and geometry and more pop if you prefer so..
and i wouldnt judge anyone for riding such a killer bike like the slayer.. instead i would say wow congrads for having the balls to spend so much money on a bike Big Grin

my point was that i can not understand were the enormous prices (costs?) come from..
production costs cant be that much higher as most bikes come from the same factorys in asia. so where does the money go to?
  • + 8
 @Boardlife69: THC oil. If they could only mine that on Rampage Site I would jump on a plane, drive there, get naked, put a steel hardtail with flat pedals on fire, chanting DRILL BABY DRILL!!!

@lkubica - if you want a poppy bike, add some SAG, LSC and decrease rebound... here, I saved you lots of money!

@everybody - pricing is what it is, most of us will never get our heads around why each bike costs what it costs. Just because RM costs this much doesn't mean they earn more per frame than Radon. That doesn't give them any medal though. Yeti or Intense may ask what they want, people will still buy it. Because it's a boutique brand. RM isn't. Price to performance is irrelevant for me here. Capra is such an amazing riding and looking bike that it's hard to motivate buying anything else in that segment.
  • + 16
 @maxx-x: Oh yeah sorry i forgot riding=life man.
"4000-5000 for nothing but image" isn't true when it come to mountainbikes, there are tangible differences and costs that can be justified.
However, for absolutely every industry regardless of it being an optional purchase or a complete necessity, fashion/image/rule of cool is a defining factor in most purchases, and that shit comes at a price.
You can feel as smug as you want pulling up to the lights in your economical, cheap, efficient VW Golf.... But you will always be jealous of the guy who pulls up next to you in a Ferrari. Not that you'd ever admit it "imagine the MPG that guy gets".
  • + 2
 @lkubica: The ride characteristics also dont necessarily correlate with the price, for example from what I've heard Santa Cruz V10 is also not poppy or playful. Every brand has their own philosophy (which is awesome, because customers can choose).

@maglor: While you do get mostly much better looking frames (and often newer geometries, features and so on) from more expensive companies, I would not say that its as in cars world, where you have really superior e.g. quality, handling, etc. Suspension kinematics is not so difficult that only brands which charge premium prices can really nail it
  • + 5
 @maxx-x : what swoop is currently third the price for even spec?
  • + 7
 @WAKIdesigns: what makes yeti and SC boutique brands in your opinion? I would put Unno in that category, but most of the other brands are equal in quality and build. I own a Specialized Enduro 29 myself, but don't find it being better built than e.g a strive from Canyon
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Propain and Commencal are also European and make some good price to performance bike...and there are many others...
  • + 2
 @Uuno: the 2016 9.0 model (with lyric rct3 and vivid air) that i just bought and that was reviewed here on pinkbike a couple of weeks ago costs 2230,- € in sale at bike-discount.de.... compared to the equaly specced slayer 750 which costs 6800,- .. that s even less then one third Smile
  • + 5
 @thestraightline: quality and build isn't what makes them boutique, it just means small and fashionable so usually comes at a price as they are on a smaller scale but doing cool things.

I do think Santa cruz isn't really boutique anymore though. they have grown a lot with a large range of alloy and carbon frames and full bikes now so they are heading towards the big boys really and becoming more mainstream
  • + 3
 @thestraightline: UNNO, Nicolai, Antidote, ARBR, Robot are the top of the top level stuff. Enduro is a better build than Strive, just undo the axle in the rocker link on Strive to see their methods of alignment vs Spesh... Antidote CJ costs 3400€ though...
  • + 1
 @maglor: Santa Cruz is still boutique since they barely make midsegment priced bikes, and make abolutely no hardtails on Alivio with Tora forks, long stems and plastic reflexes. Although honestly, lookswise I'd have a Radon anytime. If I had "misyginistic" tendencies I'd say that their colors are awesome for women's bikes...
  • + 14
 Why so butthurt about the price? You see this in discussion about Apple products too. If you don't think the price is justified, move on.
  • + 2
 many brands are boutique.. Canfield for instance.. And I dont see their "enduro" bike there costing more than 4.5KUSD, ready to kill
  • + 4
 Its about distinction as with all luxury products. Its a status symbol.
  • + 6
 @WAKIdesigns: I would add that anything custom made is boutique irrespective of price. SC and Yeti are mass produced therefore not boutique IMO.
  • + 4
 Second hand nomad c and fox 36, brand new dhx2 and full xt. Awesome bike for half the price. Still got the brand image of Santa Cruz and it's made in China plastic fantastic. Almost kept my wife happy too. I love this slayer. The blind pivots are sick.
  • + 3
 @bluumax: Good call but honestly just shred what you have whatever it may be.
  • + 32
 @tabletop84: Status symbol? Not really, there are people who buy bikes for status but they are few. And you can smell them from a mile. I do love nice things, but I do not attribute any status to them. I know many people with nice bikes and you will never see them brag.

However, I will tell you what pisses me off when it comes to status. A thing that has always pissed me off, even over 10 year ago when I was riding a XC hardtail with Manitou Axel and V-brakes so it has nothing to do with me owning a second carbon frame now. It is about a bunch of whiny little soft dicks with raging minority complex, who believe that people should own bikes accordingly to their skill level. Twats who will look at your carbon bike and can barely help themselves from shouting in your face: you don't deserve this bike!!! You can hear those wankers in the line to the lift, with some older bike with new fork, maybe anodized stem and pedals, while tyres are totally worn out. They talk crap about someone with S-Works Demo ahead in the line. And it always ends with this sentence: and this X bike is crap anyways, If I had this money I would buy Y bike.
  • + 4
 or a Commencal Meta V4.2
  • - 1
 @Boardlife69: He'd swallow the loads of all the Cube team riders after they'd beat him down the hill !!
  • + 9
 @konabigshed: so you are one of those who fantasize about being invited to bukkake party at the House of Lords?
  • + 9
 Your Swoop is Aluminium and this Slayer is Carbon, of course the Slayer is gonna cost more duuuuur!
  • + 5
 @maxx-x: I just talked to my lbs, they said they would take my new 2017 yamaha yz 250 plus 1200 cash as a trade in.
  • + 11
 I like supporting brands that do good things for our sport. If it means I pay a premium, so be it. You dont need the fancy Chromag or Deity cockpits, but the two brands support a ton of amazing riders and put out so much media for free. That is why I buy their stuff before something like Funn components that cost much less
  • + 1
 @maxx-x: ok i thought you talked about the reviewed bike which is about x3 price but better spec also. And carbon vs al.
And it's not a fair comparison (discount), current vivid swoop is not 2250€ but 2800 and lower spec than the 2016, so equivalent to the 9.0 2016 is now 3000 in my eyes.
But I hear you, I bought the cheap 9.0 too
  • + 19
 Because the Radon is a catalogue bike from china and the rocky is a three year design process and the culmination of over 35 years of making bikes...
  • + 2
 Slayer is my dream bike if I still lived in proper mountains. The adjustable flip chip!
  • + 2
 @maglor: I agree mate its getting out of control if you ask me soon only the very wealthy will be able to buy one but the brands that charge these prices may have shot them self's in the foot as it will slow there sales down because normal people can't or just won't pay 3700 for a frame it's getting silly!..
  • + 12
 Bikes are expensive, period. Even the budget brands that can give you solid spec for $3000...that's still frikin expensive for a bike. That said, if i'm spending big for a new bike, i'd rather spend $5000 for something that I frikin love (looks and all) than $3000 for something "functional".

Now how this works in reality is I simply buy a one-season used Spec/Trek/Yeti/Intense instead of a brand new Canyon/YT.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: I can only aford secondhand like you say one season bike plus I can't justify spending that amount on something that depreciates like a ton of bricks I would love a transtion carbon patrol but will make do with my 3 year old orange alpine .
  • + 20
 Life's too short to be practical all the time. Buy the bike that moves you and apologize to no one. That's how I see it anyways.
  • + 2
 @MarcHenry: yeah nope.. You are totally wrong there.. sorry.
Radon, Canyon, Yt,... They all have their own design departments and have been developing Bikes for years too... So that cant be the reason for the price.
  • + 1
 @adrennan: That's not a premium, that's a ransom.
  • + 2
 @DJ-24: And those supported riders help them sell bikes? Its ad spend really isn't it?
  • + 12
 The way I see it: whining on prices these days is just ridiculous and this thread shows it. Ok ok I get it a whatever fricking motorbike can cost less than a high end bicycle. Still a Motorcycle. I sold my 2005 Volvo and needed to pay 1k more to finance my latest bike. I get it. We are all pretentious pricks with first world problems, thy without a sin cast the first stone...

Now, let's get back to the bike world. In 2008 I bought the Nomad, there were maybe 4 other bikes that were rideable in that segment: Int6.6, SXTrail, Turner 5.5, Giant ReignX. The rest was shite. It was garbage compared to what these 5-6 bikes were. They had terrible geo and were cracking like Konas. I paid 2000$ for the Nomad frame and shock. Complete bike costed 4000$ These days you get these 6k+ bikes and listen you spoiled bitches: you can buy YT, Radon, Canyon, Rose (that's a fkng name for a bike brand) and they are riding as well as those more expensive bikes, some even better. Then you go to second hand market and the vast majority of bikes are great. And reliable. In 2008, even by 2012 the stuff you bought second hand was terrible. Now?! You buy a second hand YT with all the bells and whistles for fkng nothing.

So even though Rocky Mountain has screwed up prices, please rethink if mountain biking gone wrong, because if you think so then you are a fkng lunatic.
  • + 14
 Also, please get a quote on a high end mx and come back to me. I can possibly buy a decent apartment for that. Then give me some rally ready car with the stuff necessary for it to survive a rally and I can buy a fkng mansion.
  • + 16
 @maxx-x: Let's make a few distinctions here. To say that all these companies have been "developing bikes for years too" is very misleading. These budget brands like YT and Canyon have been around for nearly a decade. Companies like Specialized, Trek, Intense, Santa Cruz...etc...have been building the best bikes in the business for upwards of 30 years. These companies have R&D budgets many times larger than all of YT's revenue ever. You can pretend all you want but there is a big difference.

Also, the budget brands sell direct. The bigger classic brands still use the dealer-model. This is a big part of where the price difference comes from.

Finally, the bigger brands have fully-featured customer service. They have men on the ground (your LBS). Again, tell stories about your friend's friend's 2005 Enduro that broke and how Specialized wouldn't return his call, but the fact remains that companies like Specialized, Trek, Giant, SC...etc...stand behind their product. Break one of their frames and all you have to do is walk into the local dealer with a receipt and you'll have a brand new frame in a week or two. Break a YT and prepare to sit for a couple months while you wait for proof-of-purchase emails, cross-continental shipping, and possibly even worse - the good 'ole "out-of-stock" excuse.

Beating a dead horse for the billionth time, but when so many don't seem to recognize a dead horse when they see one...
  • + 10
 You're clearly just trying to feel good about your purchased. I guarantee you'd like the Slayer 66% better than the Radon
  • + 5
 @WAKIdesigns: Spot on. An off the shelf moto here, for something "competition" lets say a Honda CRF450R, is $8900. And guess what, it's dripping with the moto equivalent of "house" parts, bars, foot pegs, ect. To tune the suspension, and get it truly competitive will cost you more and a pro level "works" machine? about 100k. And that's just scratching the surface of the differences. That comparison is so clichéd.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: but it's true. I didn't say that they necessarily brag about it but when you break it down rationally it makes no sense to buy overpriced stuff like rm or apple. But people buy it because they want to distinct themselves from the masses and buy something 'special' which not everyone can afford.
  • + 5
 @tabletop84: Or because they simply like and enjoy looking at it. You cant assume everyone is so vain.
  • + 2
 @DARKSTAR63: agreed, we have come to expect to ride what the pros do and forgotten how lucky we are that a pro level bike that's the best of the best the factory teams can come up with is available to buy for a price alot of people can afford, yes bikes are getting silly money but if the price bothers you then get a lower spec with a few house branded parts and you'll still have a bike just as capable for reasonable money.

To compare to motorbikes you wouldn't be upset at how expensive moto gp or world superbikes are, you'd be happy that you can buy a superbike based on them and using all the tech for a comparative bargain.
  • - 1
 @maglor: let's face it though, it's like buying tyrells crisps instead of tescos own which are made in the same factory.

Just at third of price.

R&D/warranty definitely plays it's part though which is why to this day folk are paying loadsa coin for a SC.
  • + 3
 @titaniumtit: no it isn't. Even if it is made in the same factory (which we honestly have fricking clue about, hey, give me an adress aye?) the differences may be big. Saying that all carbon frames made in china are equal is not even an educated guess.

Check out Raoul Lueschers youtube and instagram
www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZbg5hCRyvs&t=1695s
www.instagram.com/luescher_teknik
  • + 2
 @DARKSTAR63: I didn't say anyone but it's the main factor. I mean it's not that the budget brands build bad looking bikes anymore.
  • + 2
 @tabletop84: I don't think its the main factor. But there is no way to know so it's not worth much debate. That's like saying that people only buy sports cars to make others envious, which is maybe true of some but not most.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: LOL, tired ? Personally I'm not interested in boutique brands, they can raise people's expectations of the owners ability when often they just have more money than sense.
  • + 2
 @maglor: sb6c suspension system is regarded as best one ever in terms of grip and traction. premium price for that i reckon
  • + 13
 @konabigshed: more money than sense. maybe you have too little sense to have money? Maybe their 10k Enve kitted Nomad CC costs them less in relation to what they earn, compared to what you paid/earned?

I can only tell you that I have met at least 10 times as many whiny btches, butthurt over not being able to afford a high end bike, and feeling inferior for no fkng reason, than owners of high end bikes looking down on people. At least in gravity part of MTB. I may dig myself a hole here, since I know many of my "locals" read it, but when I come with my bike to any sort of large group ride, some people scan me and my bike the hideous way that not a single properly rich dude ever had when I've been leaving my kids at the daycare. And there are people leaving their kids with Bentleys while I look like some homeless dude in rain uniform shuttling kids in an old baby carrier. I will paraphrase Billy Connolly - poor people are fun, rich people are fun, it is the middle wannabies that suck and ruin it for everybody.
  • - 2
 @WAKIdesigns: daddy buys me a new Santa Cruz every year why would I change when the poor people ride yt lapierre and the like? And why would they reduce prices when they are clearly only for the likes of the upper echelons of society. When we go hunting we often shoot the tyres on Scott, trek and anything in alloy its great fun. I even name them after my poor friends from school.
  • + 2
 @DARKSTAR63: it's about distinction which is not exactly the same as making other people envious. The motivation may come from that but it's more complex. The more ridiculously priced an item is in the context of its product hierarchy distinction matters more. Design was a big factor but since there are so many good looking budget brands it becomes less important.
  • + 1
 @Cefn: hahaha wtf very funny then you woke in a hot steamy sweet haha.
  • + 2
 I have an altitude forsale. Someone buy it.
  • + 9
 @Cefn: I described it above: these days you have option to buy absolutely excellent bikes like YT. less than 10 years ago, this option didn't exist. If you wanted a decent bike you had to spend 6k+. How do you feel about your 3,5k YT or Radon vs 6.5k+ Yeti or Unno is a completely different story and is your own business. Stop looking down at people for selling/owning expensive bikes, saying that they look down on you for being poor. Why would they reduce pricing? How about you raise a level higher, either at earning cash for more expensive bike or developing a healthy way of looking at the world and your situation, instead of trying to pull the world down to your level, which isn't necessarily any low, you just make it so by whining on expensive sht.
  • + 12
 @WAKIdesigns: It all a matter of perspective. Most sane people think we are all crazy for spending more than a couple hundred bucks on a bicycle......
  • + 1
 @DARKSTAR63: We are.

Not saying it's a bad thing...but when you zoom out and really think about it, yeah it's crazy.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: Good come back dude I may use that one day.
I have no problem with what ever other people ride/ drive etc. I ride regularly with Santa Cruz owners they're friends in fact. But I just can't personally justify the cost of some bikes when I can get one that performs great for half the money, but maybe that's my bad it's got nothing to do with my income.
I prefer to have more than one decent bike and not put all my eggs in one basket.
  • + 3
 @bluumax: When I see a Ferrari all I'm thinking is, How would I fit my dirty ass bike in that POS? Ferrari 0. VW Golf 1.
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: well said fella my sentiments adactly !.
  • + 8
 Well I'm one of those tools that has bought an expensive 'boutique' brand rather than a Yt, Radon, etc. and I don't regret it for a second. I was 'lucky' in that I got run over and had some compo to burn, so I spent more than I could/would usually (I'm on an average wage - nothing crazy) but I now have the bike I'd lusted over for years. I will ride it for years to come (no quick ownership prospects here!) and it feels special in a way that I don't think another bike could. People comment on it (that's a clue that it isn't a SC!) and, like the earlier comment, most would look at a Ferrari differently from a Nissan Gt-r despite similar performance (at road speeds). Both are great and have their own fan bases (and I'd be happy if I could afford either), but one is more exotic/special. I don't drink much, smoke or go to an expensive gym - it's mainly bikes that make me happy so that is where I put my money. I have to be honest in that lots of the latest generation of consumer direct bikes do look very good, and are excellent value, but having built mine up myself from various parts on sale the price difference is not as massive as advertised here.
Also, a big decision in my purchase was the brands customer service reputation - dropping a much as I did on a bike I need to know I'm likely to be supported if something goes wrong. I've a friend who has had a Santa Cruz for a few years - he's had an excellent service from them including many free bearings. I'm not rich so that stuff means a lot to me and I considered them. I genuinely believe that the online brands CS is catching up quickly though, so my next purchase may be much harder!
Oh, and whilst that Radon looks incredible I think that this bike will be a slightly better all rounder - I presume the carbon frame means it is a little lighter and the suspension adjustment means that you would be far happier pedalling it around non-lift serviced terrain. That may mean the RM effectively folks the role of two bikes? Saying that I'd be getting the Radon if I spent all my time in lift serviced terrain...
  • + 1
 @Boardlife69: BWHAHAHAHAA!!!!
  • + 3
 Can someone remind me which article is this we are commenting on? Scrolling down to comment section of the first review of the day is fast, but after a few hours into the day I forget which review was it, and I am too lazy to scroll up through this unabridged version of "War and Peace" to check if it's not some old review that got back into my dashboard feed, and I hope I am not arguing at the benefit of Ellsworth or Santa Cruz... is it just me having these... thoughts?
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: true man. You here it all summer long in the Whistler lift lines
  • + 4
 YAWN YAWN... Just ride what you want and enjoy it and don't judge others for what they ride.
  • + 3
 @maxx-x: where did you get 6800€ from? The slayer 750 cost $6200 CAD.
  • + 3
 Some people like supporting there local bike shops
  • + 3
 @tabletop84: Buying apple doesn't distinguish you from the masses, it makes you one of the masses. Everyone in the apple demographic has an iphone these days.

Kind of like a uniform, skinny jeans or a certain hairstyle. A community of communion.

I agree with dark star though. Buy what you want, to hell with what anyone thinks.
  • + 4
 I don't get these kinds of posts. If you want to by a Radon or a YT or Canyon for less, by all means go for it. If you don't want to buy a Rocky Mountain for this price, by all means don't. Or if you do want this bike, go ahead and get it.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: dude I paid nearly £4k for my bike. I could have spent more but I felt that any more bike wouldnt reflect how I ride, sheit I wanst moaning. But seriously who wouldnt want their bikes to be cheaper?! Even daddy in his brand new transporter with four kids all on carbon Bronson's would see the merit in that. For someone who spends all day joking on this site you sure can't take one.
  • + 3
 Football is cheap to get into. All you need is a ball. Hell, you can use a can or a ball of newspaper. You don't need to spend any money at all. I suggest whingers get into footy instead of bikes.
  • + 3
 I ride Ebay carbon frames. No name reasonable and rad as hell!
  • + 0
 Rest assured, there will always be those few suckers who throw their life savings at a $8000 bike. An people like us will be around to buy it off them at a fraction of the price, once they realize they need the money.
  • + 7
 @OFF2theGYM: not everyone is poor, if $8000 is your life savings, then yes don't buy this bike! RM are good bikes their price is fair!
  • + 10
 @maxx-x: The money goes towards a profitable business, paying back investors, paying back debt incurred, and paying the R&D bill for the next generation. I'd also argue against your statement that production cost can't be that much higher. RMB doesn't have the volume like bigger brands such as Trek, Giant, Specialized etc. and need to charge more per unit to pay off the cost of manufacturing full carbon frames with less sales volume.

If all anyone cared about was the cheapest possible bike most of these companies would be out of business.
If you extend that cheapness mentality to the rest of life, everyone would shop at Walmart, eat at McDonalds, and we wouldn't have any nice, original, or quality stuff. We'd all have cheap shit.

I have a RMB and I love it. Maybe I payed more then basement price for a trail bike. Maybe I could have bought a Mongoose from Walmart instead. Maybe I still can't ride as fast I think I can. But f*ck it, I freaking love the ride.
  • - 2
 @Cefn: who wouldn't like it cheaper? - what are you doing to make living?
  • + 3
 @WAKIdesigns: what's it got to do with how this guy gets coin ? He already said his bike cost 4k! , I'd say that makes him a committed biker wouldn't you ?
He's quite correct when he says that you spend a lot of time on here being a self opiniated troll which is why I originally joked about you swallowing cum, it was only a joke, sucks it up and take what you continually dish out.
Nobody cares what I or you ride or what they cost ! Nor should they. Someone has to buy the very top bikes but equally someone has to buy the bread and butter, you realise that as well as I do.
I hope for those folk out there that crave the very best that however they pay the price, either savings, accident payout or hard earned decent salary that their choice is as good as they'd hoped.
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: it does matter because I wanted to ask him if he can do it cheaper whatever he is doing. How about he give me 20% off his services? Because you guys obviously want to buy everything at lower prices from house to bikes, but you surely want to earn more. Hey, do you like taking holidays? Why would anyone be paid for time off the work?! That could drop the price pf products isn't it? No, you want to get paid more for work for holidays and then you want more holidays. And cheaper pasta.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: No where did I say I wanted top end bikes cheaper or said they were over priced, and yes I do like holidays I'm going skiing this Friday .
Your right I do like a bargain, I was raised in post war Britain, it's a state of mind brought about by personal circumstances.
However it wouldn't stop me buying any bike I wanted because I'm obsessed apparently. The most recent is a Genesis tarn 20 2017 model which I'm happy to say I received a 20 % discount on !!
It's a great bike.
  • + 0
 @konabigshed: at least Waki has photos in his profile.
  • + 3
 @fartymarty: why does this matter? Some people just like to ride.
  • + 1
 @Cefn: It doesn't matter at all, although I am always suspicious of people who have joined recently and have no photos, favs etc - smells like a troll to me. At least if you have a few photos etc it shows you have a bit of history / experience no matter how much or little.

Plus most people are proud of their rides and want to share them with others. Also it's useful to see what others have done with the same bike as you.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: isn't that what Instagram is for??
  • + 2
 @trauty: While i have no doubt the Yeti is good, and i would absolutely own one if cost wasn't a factor its not like SC vpp or lots of brands running DW-link or many other great suspension designs aren't considered fantastic and get great reviews so in my mind Yeti cannot demand a 20% premium over other already premium brands with equally brilliant bikes, its just marketing and a bling kashima pivot bush.

I understand why people buy Yeti as a bike is bought with the heart and they are beautiful, i just feel Yeti is taking the piss a bit and taking advantage of their image by charging what they like.
  • + 2
 @konabigshed: I'm sorry for my last comment and assuming you are one of guys who value "cheap". I too look for occasions, in fact my current bike would cost at least 6,5k € if I wasn't good at getting deals. But I got it at almost half price. The single only thing that I didn't get a deal on was Hope crankset and it bit me, like most products from that company. I thought I will give it to company that is courageous and stubborn enough to make stuff in Europe and I got an over complicated thing, that takes forever to be removed, and needs frequent removal because chainring gets loose... that was the very last time I bought anything else than headset and seat clamp from Hope.

I was raised in post communist Poland. A country ravaged up to this day with minority complex, of an empire that disappeared from the map of the world and became Gods geographical joke. So excuse me for being disgusted with notions of minority complex (like Cefn mentioning daddy buying sht) as well as getting on a high moral ground. I've seen too much of this sht, among people wanting money and power. I also spent time working for pennies as a teenager, in my friends fathers workshop, where people were coming in wanting car repair for free. I've heard enough shit. We all want to make living, price never reflects the worth of a product/service.
  • + 4
 @maglor: but Yeti has genuinely deserved their position by working hard and smart. They have developed a very good sense for visuals: both when it comes to bikes themselves and for presenting them. Website, videography, absolutely stunning. Yeti bikes are iconic, and instantly recognizable. A rare treat these days. I get goose bumps at the very thought of the "Proven Here" video from New Zealand with Cody and Richie. Would I buy a Yeti? Hell no, too expensive for my budget and why would I get something with fusion reactor instead of lower link/pivot? But it doesn't stop me from admiring them.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: Have a look on instagram at salmonlipss , lots of photos of bikes and dogs, the old bloke in the photos is me.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: it is pure jealousy on the part of people who per rice themselves to be undeservingly poor, despite being in the 2%
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: I'm sorry for my cum swallowing comment too , I was being touchy because I have a Cube Stereo 160 and it's alright but I can see them not being for everyone .
I'm doing the Megavalanche on it this year before I really am too old !!
  • + 2
 @konabigshed: Stereo is ok, has always been. I loved the one with the shock in the rear. But it's been an Elephant in the Cube room. It's their XC bikes and the DH bike that were making me die inside... and the crowd they (and most German brands) used to cater to for many many years. The Garda Lake pretentious mob. Hah, this is the place where people will give you looks for being poor for not having a carbon bike. Or will look at you like a God if you happen to have a clean(!) S-Works Venge or Epic. If you own a Bianchi kitted with Di2, Tune components and some hideous foam grips you will quickly find someone who will suck your balls if you let them take a few turns on the parking lot. Fkng hate MTBers there... fireroad gelato&espresso chasers with Elite written all over their team sperm suits. Which they probably got by nagging some pro at a race 7 years ago. But something tells me Crankworx in Whistler is no different...
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: got ya... nice leith hill piccys (im in Epsom so relatively close). You should stick your piccys on PB.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: Thanks, I hadn't been up leith Hill for a few years but it's well worth the drive from East Sussex. I've been known to do Cwmcarn for a day trip, it's a favourite.
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: Cwmcarn is good although haven't been for a few years. We digress... back to complaining about how overpriced bikes etc... PS enjoy the Mega, its a blast. Make sure you check out Les 2 Alpes and the Venosc run when you are in the area - 120+ corners of goodness.
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: while I would generally agree that the guy who says stuff like: "I passed the guy on the 10 k bike and I ride a shity aluminum one" deserves to be castrated (you know cause darwinism.) same as the guy who thinks just by having a 10k bike magically aquired technical skills and a good fitnes level (this is exacerbated if he owns anything made by rapha.)

I am glad they exist. there is a lot of fun on overpassing any of the two and seeing their rationalizations later. although the expensive bike guy is usually more fun to humilliate on the trail.

an anecdote: one time I went out with my usual riding buddy and he brought along his accountant he had a s works hardtail epic. I was on my ripley and my buddy on a trek fuel although we did a pretty mellow xc course, and the epic was the best tool for the job we ended up waiting for the guy on top and down the hill. we finished our loop at an lbs that is a trek dealer and the guy insisted that the reason we have to wait for him is because he did not had a rear suspension. us being at a better fitness level definitely did not registered in his brain so he took out his credit card and bought right there a trek fuel 9.9 so yeah for the most part the guys spending above 7k on a bike are not really puting a hole on their pockets and they are the actual target demographic.

also WAKI I own a canyon xc hardtail now does that means you hate me?
  • + 1
 I think the horse has been sufficiently beaten to death...
  • + 1
 @DARKSTAR63: there are no death horses in mountain biking.
  • + 0
 @fercho25: no I do not hate anyone owning a Canyon. I don't even hate anyone on an On*One. I would hate myself if I would buy one. Now... I get your anecdote, I used to know dud bute like that myself. But just as we enjoyed his spendind (or rather selling habits) thanks to that guy you describe, someone got a barely used Epic for half of the price. There is no point in saving rich people from themselves.
  • + 1
 @fercho25: it's more satisfying when you pass the 10K guy and you're riding a shitty steel hardtail. Sometimes I am that guy. Sometimes we are all that guy.

Seriously though we need the guys and gals buying the expensive bikes as these bike push the development of the sport in the right direction. Think of all the mega bikes of years gone and the lessons we have learned from them. If no one was buying them we would all be on rigid steel hardtails.
  • + 0
 Yea..for 7k one could buy an overpriced mountain bike that better make you insanely happy....if your into street bikes you could also get an FZ-07 or a Z650. Blows my mind mountain and road bikes cost as much as bad ass motorcycles.
  • + 2
 @TwoWheelPhrenzy: plus registration and insurance! Then you get to ride it with dumbass people in their cars texting , not paying attention trying to kill you, yeah street bikes are great!
  • + 4
 @TwoWheelPhrenzy: We've been here already, those motorbikes are no where near top spec like a 7k mountain bike is, if you have to compare its more like a £500 hardtail, yer its rad and fun and very capable but nothing on a top race bike.

not to mention motorbikes are sold in much larger numbers driving the price down further and have had alot more development time put into them to bring even more tech to a low price.
  • + 2
 @maxx-x You're smoking a crack rock if you think the 1/3-price Swoop is equivalent to this Slayer.
  • + 0
 @jaame: of course it does. That's the only reason apple is the most valuable company in the world.
  • + 2
 @sevensixtwo: i know that ist not.. the price really differs
  • + 4
 Let me chime in on a couple of things here.

1. Not all German bike companies are great, but some definitely are. I hold them in higher regard than those boutique North American brands. And not because of carbon. Companies like Liteville and Nicolai make some great bikes out of aluminium and I see no need for carbon. Got to love Alutech and Solid too.

2. @WAKIdesigns People walk up to you and actually scream in your face that you don't deserve your bike. Really, aren't you imagining things? Is that common practice over there where you ride. People stop, walk up to people and start screaming stuff like that? "Sorry ma'am, that cellphone you're holding right now? You don't deserve that". Odd place. If something like that would happen to me, I'd laugh my ass off.

3. Interesting to see people here take particular pride in overtaking people on more expensive gear. To be honest I wouldn't even know what my bike is worth. It's assembled of gear gathered and replaced over the course of well over a decade. I'd be impressed if someone would overtake me and take a glance and do the calculations. It could be anywhere between 1500 and 2500 and then I might still be 1000 euros off in either direction. And overtaking, what's it for? On a non technical section I'm not inspired so if someone wants to ride past me they're welcome. If I spot someone slower than me on a non technical section I sometimes stop and wait. So that I can then enjoy that section even more. Would hate to overtake someone there, possibly scaring that person or going off-trail causing unnecessary damage. Yes, I'd make a horrible racer. So you rider on a cheaper bike, you're so smug about overtaking me or at least not be overtaken by me? Enjoy your day.
  • + 2
 @vinay: just.......no.
  • + 1
 @vinay: I didn't write they do, but I can see it boiling under the surface. I know te scanning look very well. I've been hanging out with dudes like that. When you are young and start riding and don't know anybody, you may end up with people like that. And I did hear such conversations in the queue to the lift, in Poland, in Slovakia, in Sweden and in Norway. Not just from kids. My wife is like that when it comes to skis. Last time when I was in Norway where a few 25-ish year old dudes were talking behind the back of a guy on S-Works Demo. Yes he sucked. And so what.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: dont worry Waki if ever saw you I would not mind screaming in your face so all your phrophecies can be fullfilled.
  • + 2
 @WAKIdesigns: but don't we all suck compared to Graves, Gwin, Hill, Hart... (the list goes on). We all suck, so what as long as you have fun sucking Razz
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: I knew some college girls that thought the same way.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: I'm sorry but you are just wrong. To say that all shop based companies produce better bikes is complete nonsense and simply not true. Yes, a shop will usually provide an easier customer service experience but not by much. I don't know why people can't get it through their head that older doesn't mean better.
  • + 4
 @Jackson900: I never said that. Besides it has nothing to do with being "shop-based". It has everything to do with experience and investment.

Do Specialized, Trek, Santa Cruz, Intense, and their peers build "better" bikes than Canyon, YT, and their peers? Yes. It's not an opinion, it's an objective evaluation. I'm talking about companies that have 30+ years of experience building the best bikes in the business compared to upstarts trying to get established in a huge market. The big names have decades of racing and development experience compared to the upstarts who are just now getting their teams together. The big names have a network of dedicated dealers, many of whom are in the neighborhoods of their customers, compared to the upstarts who have call centers. This is why the big names can charge 2x as much as the upstarts and still sell MORE BIKES. It's not a conspiracy, it's not stupidity, it's called reputation.

Now does that make Canyon and YT products "bad"? Not at all. I'd argue that they provide a fantastic product for the price they charge. But trying to say that a YT is an equivalent bike to a Trek/Specialized/SC is just silly. Now i'll give you this - in 10 years, if they are still around, i'll be willing to entertain the idea.
  • + 6
 @TheRaven: Well said. There's another factor, coming along with your reputation thing. Many people who have serious money, and are willing to spend big sums on bicycles of any kind, have little time and will to nerd into bikes on websites. I know a few loaded dudes who don't give a flying fk and cannot be bothered if Canyon XC hardtail is good or not. All they know is that when they were driving through town in their more or less luxurious car, they saw a nice bike in the shop window. So few weeks later they went in and started asking the sales guy about which option is the best. Trek Top Fuel 9.9 or Fuel EX 9.9 They go home, think it through, come back week or two after and buy it. Their thinking time related to purchase of the high end bicycle can be roughly estimated as 1-2h per week, for 4 weeks in a year. They have other important sht to think aboout, and other interests to occupy them. There is nothing more sad than a f*ck like me spending 2-5h a day on thinking about bikes. My knowledge saves me 2k on price of the bike. That is a week of work for a guy average Pinkbike commenter will laugh at for being a clueless dentist or accountant... And this guy goes skiing three times in the winter, has a boat in the summer, two, three cars, a nice house, and some twat on comment board thinks better because he can ride a bike faster and never pays full MSRP. Here's your medal for life choices: double prop on your comment.
  • - 1
 @TheRaven: Sorry but you're talking bollocks matey. The Germans are fairly well known for their engineering skills, don't forget whose brains got the USA into space.
Their engineers are well up to the job of matching Trek and Specialized for quality and function.
You may not be able to accept it but that doesn't make it so.
  • + 4
 @konabigshed: there are many steps in the process of making a frame of any material, and each step can be performed more or less accurately. Is Intense or RM making bikes any better than Canyon, Cube? There's a chance it does because these direct order companies are surely trying to cut every penny and their bottom line may as well be not quality and performance but customer safety. Something that AliExpress doesn't have, selling you a carbon Enve replica for 60$ - you do deserve to end in hospital if you buy that. So I do believe that at least cc version of Nomad offers more than a carbon Capra (despite being stupid ugly)

German engineering. Hahaha, there's been a huge sht storm on German Pinkbike under article about Eagle where Germans themselves were saying that Deutchesengenerungskonst is meaningless bullsht useful for marketing purposes only. Many took time to argue in English so that "the world" can see they don't subscribe under such bollocks. I told them to chill out, and showed them DIrt's tour in Treks factory, shining with American Nationalism, flags everywhere, talkign about Made in US a lot. If this was an article about Syntace with German flags everywhere they'd be accused of bringing back nazism. Oh well... the patriotic double standards...
  • + 2
 @konabigshed: All of what you said is debatable, and regardless, none of it supports the notion that the german brands bikes are on par with the big boys.
  • + 2
 I see I made a typo. I sometimes wait before the technical sections so that I have some free space in front of me to enjoy it.

I'm surprised to see that the your experience with people riding expensive gear is so different from mine. I've been working a side job in a bike shop for a couple of years during my study. It wasn't necessarily the ideal shop for me as the mountainbike specific stuff was limited. But obviously it is nice having bikes around and I could get good deals on gear. But we were special in a way because we welded up custom steel frames or sent custom geometry up to Litespeed to weld up a custom titanium frame for customers. Obviously this was higher end stuff. People traveling the world on their Rohloff equipped steel traveler bike with very specific demands. They could agonize over geometry, colour, logos. So it was mostly road bikes and traveler bikes. And you can be pretty sure they put proper thought into it. They came one weekend, agonized during the week, came back the next to make adjustments. Many of these people are in their late thirties, early forties. People who have been avid cyclists in their early years, had to cut back when they started to work, buy a house and get young children. And then they got more money and more time again. And they got more conscious about what the want exactly and want to make every ride count. Not be let down by a cheap component, tool or garment. I get that. I had a customer who came to pick up a road bike, about 10k or 11k (euros). A dentist indeed. Custom geometry titanium frame and just the parts for the wheels because he enjoyed lacing them up himself. He said he sure could enjoy himself on a 3000 euro bike and spend the 7000 euro more on a higher spec car. But the car wouldn't give him more joy, the bike would, for years to come. So when you write about dentists like you know them all you need to know you're full of shit yourself. People who spend more money on a bike do so because they care and like to ride. And because they have the money available they'd rather just get it from the shop and go riding rather than waste their time on the internet looking for the best deals. But when the bike is finished they're just going to ride the hell out of it, for years. You don't buy a custom geometry steel or titanium frame to replace it next year. You want to buy something and then be done with it.

I feel I'm shifting in this category as well now. I'm 37 now, finished most of the bigger construction jobs in and around the new house, the girls are 5 and 6 years old and are doing great and I can get a couple of rides on the mountainbike every week. My frames are about 10 years (Cannondale Prophet fully) and 9 years (DMR Switchback steel hardtail) now and they were kind of a compromise when I built them. Because I really like my top tube low I got a relatively short frame. Good fun still, but a compromise. Nowadays I can get the bike that suits me, long enough and still low. I've saved up and if I'd get something now, it'd be the Kingdom Vendetta 2, raw. I like the geometry, tire clearance and I like that it's titanium and the looks of the raw welds. It isn't cheap either. But if I'd get anything else, I'd still be thinking about that bike. And I'll be riding the bike for a long time. So it'd better get it right. Now, imagine you'd meet me, see my bike. You don't know me, but the bike is expensive. So I'm a dentist, too much money, bought the frame in a heartbeat? This may go for cellphones, smartwatches, maybe cars even. But not something that's a passion, like a bike. People buy it because they like riding. More than wasting time on the internet shopping for deals. I used to ride with a friend on a titanium fully. And he sure had skills and a passion for riding. My neighbour is a doctor, rides a Liteville. I don't think he has the experience that anyone looks down on him either. I don't know what's wrong with the places you people go.
  • + 1
 @WAKIdesigns: I was only making the point that it needn't begin and end with Trek and Specialized because they've been around along time. European and British engineers have been doing good things and don't deserve to be described by @TheRaven as upstarts continuously.
If the Germans are embarrassed about their own abilities it's their loss.
Any pride in being English was put down here too and probably a reason Orange bikes do well here as owners feel like their doing their bit despite better designs being available.
  • + 1
 @konabigshed: Hey I understand, we've been told by the "ruling party" for the last 8 years that we should apologize for being American too.

As you can probably guess, that's a big reason why we now have a psycho in charge.
  • - 1
 YT and Canyon aren't upstarts. They're quite established by now. They're just new to the North American market as they couldn't be bothered by the patent on four bar linkage bikes. I have never read anywhere that Trek and Sp[ecialized make better bikes than YT and Canyon. In fact most reviews I've read about these have been quite positive.

And indeed riding an Orange would be something I'd be quite proud and happy about. Personally for that kind of money I'd be even more attracted by Starling, but Orange is still quite cool. I wouldn't dare to call Starling an upstart, not on par with what an established brand like Orange has to offer.
  • + 3
 @vinay: Yup. When we spend as much as we do on the bikes we ride, we fully deserve to have everything we want.

There are clueless rich guys out there, but then there are also enthusiast rich guys who both know bikes and can afford them.
  • + 3
 @TheRaven: Yes it does seem to have swung to an extreme, but that's what years of culturally suicidal liberalism has got us.
We are now however dangerously off bikes.
  • + 2
 OFF TOPIC WARNING

@TheRaven: Poland also has psychos in charge recently, who won elections by playing on nationalism disguised as patriotism. It just seems to be in fashion right now. Thank you anti-globalist 20-40 year olds. You bunch of useful idiots with some of the worst of nationalists as troopers on your "peaceful" demonstrations - you weren't talking about that in your highly moralized Marxist greenie bullcrap, parasiting on every single event like Occupy wallstreet. I just wonder, when relative balance will be in fashion? Is it even possible?

@vinay - I do find value in stuff like my Antidote being made in Poland. But that's because these are people I can relate to, from a place I can relate to, because that's an investment in future jobs market, leaving money in the local economy. And because the product is ace. I do not attach any nationalistic idea to it. Why would I paint it up, instead of appreciating the reality? I'm not making Poland great again by giving money to them instead of to Chinese or Taiwanese citizens, whose work quality I have absolutely nothing against. They are just... out there, while i can visit Anti guys or Orange or Unno, whatever. Hope did bite me though, and I ain't going to shut up about it just because they are close. And I feel many do blindly praise some companies just because it's made localy - and I believe you can sense it by aggression of people defending them, like it is with Hope... DT-Swiss or Mavic - awesome stuff made in Europe, not costing more than Asian made stuff, like ZTR or WTB. Sorry for being self-centered here, but I honestly wish more people thought this way: find duality to discover the danger of polarity - which is hard enough - then go one step further and search for common singularities in particular set of circumstances. Polarity always requires narrowing vision and nitpicking facts. Polarity always requires an enemy to justify ones position. POlarity allows you to sit in one place and feel comfy among friends. Singularity requires you to travel on both sides of equator. That means leaving some friends behind and making friends with enemies.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED
  • + 0
 @WAKIdesigns: I don't necessarily have anything with stuff produced in Asia. I do dislike imbalance of stuff being developed here and then produced in Asia because of cheap labour and limited environmental regulations. I'd rather see stuff produced in Asia that's actually being designed there. Of course that's a bit vague for a guy in tiny Europe, talking of Asia as just another country. Except for top level Shimano stuff, the development is in Japan and production is in Malaysia. So still imbalanced.

The thing is that European and North American produce is quickly considered the elite stuff. Yes, Hope is top level stuff. But it doesn't necessarily have to be like that. Until recently, all Magura stuff was being produced in their plant in tiny Bad Urach. Service and distribution eventually shifted to Laichingen, not far from there. But Magura produces for the general cyclist. Top level competition components but also decent stuff for new riders. It is doable. But we're suckers for the lowest price apparently so eventually some production moved to Asia. Not just for price though. They found it hard to cater in time for the North American and Australian market so that's why they initially opened a plant in Asia.

Another interesting company is Tacx. Maybe not the most exciting until I got the opportunity to visit them. My dealer (where I worked at the time) was one of their bigger ones and we were invited for a factory visit (20km from where I lived) and the see their new line up. I was impressed they do all in house. Koos (founder) does management, the son did development and prototyping, the daughter the branding, making all those moodboards etc. So all (software) development, production (and pre-production like mould making) and distribution was done in house. That's impressive because they actually compete with the cheap Asian stuff that's already good enough for the home mechanic. Sure not everyone there is a skilled craftsperson like we associate those at Hope with, but then again not everyone can possibly that skilled. Rather see those people still have a job over here. When you buy one of their trainers, what you're getting is a box with a partly assembled trainer and a bag with loose parts. Some may complain they expect a complete and finished product. But that's simply not possible at that price point over here. What do you rather have. A product assembled in a noisy Chinese assembly hall under stressful conditions. Or do you rather brew yourself a cup of tea, play your favourite tune, drop on the couch and take fifteen minutes to assemble your new product?
  • + 0
 @TheRaven: Buddy you are just not right. I've ridden 3 trek bikes including a slash and I've had 2 yts including the capra and I can say the capra is better in both performance and finish. Speaking of race experience didn't gwin get the overall or is that just me. You just need to admit when your wrong.
  • + 5
 holy crap you guys are still talking about this???????
  • + 5
 @adrennan: this is seriously the deepest incursion inside the rabbit hole that ive seen on pinkbike
  • + 2
 @Jackson900: I have no problem admitting when i'm wrong. Had you taken the time to read and understand what I have said you would not have replied the way you did. Nowhere did I say that YT bikes are worse than Trek in "performance and finish", nor did I intend to infer anything of the sort.
  • + 3
 A year or two ago I was desperate to get my hands on a YT Capra, but I was in Taiwan and had never actually seen one in the flesh. When I finally did see one at the Taipei cycle show, I was totally underwhelmed. The finish quality was pretty poor. Wonky tube forms, lifting paint edges. Definitely a level or two down from the Nomad I bought instead. I made the same comparison between Sram X0 and Deore XT the same day, and between Transition and Specialized five years ago. I personally would not buy anything Sram or Transition now I have compared them to other brands side by side. OK it was the TR450 vs a demo, and tranny may have got better since then, but I would still never buy one. At least with YT you are saving a shit ton of cash, and some people don't care about finish quality. With that TR450 it was top dollsr for second rate aluminium, no hydroforming, lumpy welds, shitty paint, external routing. On one hand I would say you get what you pay for, although jot in every case. If reputation and paint finish are worth a huge premium to you then go for it. Buy what makes you happy. Cocaine and prostitutes may be more fun than any bike, but it's short lived with no resale value.
  • + 2
 @vinay: as a side note I have a Starling on order due to the reasons you described above. I tend to keep my bikes for a long time and want something that's special with custom geo. It wont be a flashy build but built sensibly as my riding time is prescious. As such will probably go under the radar compared to the lastest plastic fantastic bike.
  • + 3
 @Jamee - agreed or at least understood in 99%. But resale value hahaha - keep those stories for your wife Big Grin
  • + 1
 @jaame: If you are questioning the finishing and the things you can see how about the things you can't see? This is why I love Nicolais - the welding is first rate so you know its been made with love and care.
  • + 1
 @fartymarty: I can't disagree with you Marty. Close up, there is no more beautiful bike than a nicolai.
  • + 2
 @jaame: It may be good to keep in mind what YT was about initially. They were fed up with the situation that most of the time those who could afford to ride a race worthy bike were the ones who were in a not so race worthy situation. They did have the job and money, but also commitments to keep them off their bike and to keep them from staying fit and strong. And the ones fit and with time to ride, they could only afford a BigHit which, at the time, had become the lower spec'd gravity bike. So they wanted to be able to offer those riders something with proper geometry and spec good enough to compete. In order to achieve that they went with a no frills approach. One frame per discipline, one spec per frame to take advantage of economies of scale. "Here you have a bike. It's good. Now shut up and ride". For a young rider a few hundreds more expensive means a few months more saving up, side jobs and worst, not riding. Ride in February with an imperfect paintjob or don't ride before May to enjoy a perfect paintjob (and no money left for trips). It is an easy choice if you're that age and in a position to become good. Nowadays of course this element of what the brand is all about got a bit lost. After all, everyone likes a bike with good geometry, proper spec for little money. And obviously customers like these are good for YT as well. But with these new customers came different expectations as well. Aestetics and finish became as if not more important than the basic quality of being fit for competition. YT will probably evolve to cater for these as well (and improve finish), because it is for the piece of the market that has a lot of money to spend. But it is a very crowded market. We'll see how it goes.

@fartymarty That Starling would stand out to me more than any flashy carbon bike ever could. I'm sure it will be an amazing ride. Enjoy!
  • + 1
 @vinay: thanks. Once I get it (in July) I will post some piccys. It's going to be a long wait though.
  • + 1
 @vinay: I get the message I like the concept but for what's it worth I will tell you that I have never seen a young talen on a YT. Just dudes like you and me.
  • + 5
 Yeah this is all exactly what i've been getting at. You do get what you pay for...individual's opinions may differ on that sentiment but then different riders prioritize different qualities differently. The fact remains that there are very concrete reasons why YT is so much cheaper than Spec/Trek/SC. One of those reasons is direct sales, and that alone subtracts from the quality of the experience, but there is also build quality, design and the experience and knowledge behind the development of the bike. Then there's customer service after the sale. We have plenty of first hand reports on all of these aspects (a simple search of this site will show you all you need), so we can say with confidence at this point that Spec/Trek/SC is a better bike.

Once again, that doesn't meant that no one should be buying YT. Brands like YT exist because there is a place for them, and even I agree that they are very important to our sport. With the big name price tags continually rising, YT's opportunities are only going to grow.

So if you are a YT owner, don't waste your time trying to justify your purchase. You don't have to. Any rider who's not a complete d-bag is going to respect you for your choice. We all have budgets, and even those of us who can afford the big money bikes can remember a time when we couldn't.
  • - 2
 @TheRaven: I guess you just don't get it. Happy trails!
  • + 1
 @Jackson900: Yeah I guess no one here but you gets it. You are the only one who knows the truth. Sucks to be us.

Shame we've been riding all these years thinking we know something when really we are clueless without you.
  • + 1
 @adrennan: deity FTW!
  • + 2
 so how you guys been? ive missed you.
  • + 7
 "Rear Shock FOX FLOAT X2 EVOL FACTORY 165MM"
For the shock specifications can you give the specification of the shock itself ? not the rear weel travel
Maybe here it's 230x65mm
  • + 1
 Is it metric?
  • + 1
 @jaame: Yes (770 MSL has a Super Deluxe)
  • + 1
 @zephxiii: then 230*65 is a good deduction
  • + 10
 Alloy? Sign me up!
  • + 4
 Unfortunately the prices of nowadays stuff aren't worldwide affordable. If I would earn money in english pounds, american/canadian dollars or in euro, it would be ok. But we in Poland earn money in zlotys, 1 pound costs over 5 zlotys and 1 dollar or euro about 4 zlotys. So the cost of the bike in our country increases to almost 30k. And with our realistic monthly earnings about 2k, we would have to save money for about 15 months to afford a bike like this. Over a year with out food and house payment.
  • + 8
 Dude, you're Canadian. Colour has a u!
  • + 7
 I think this definetely classifies as a "dream bike". Just beautiful
  • + 3
 wow i must be superficial, but as awesome as i'm sure almost all Rocky's are, i just do not dig their paint jobs, any of them. the guy in charge has a sense of style and colour that i just don't get at all. probably a good thing for me...
  • + 6
 Miss my old slayer, great bikes!
  • + 2
 I still ride my old Slayer (SXC30 with 170mm RS Lyrik) and I'm still loving it. Such a great bike!!! And it's carbon free Smile
  • + 2
 Old Slayers were the best. Made out of aluminium you could trust. I had a Flow FS back in the day (basically a Slayer with coil shock), best damn 5" bike I have ever owned. Sadly it was a tad too small.
  • + 2
 Is anyone else getting tired of reading Pinkbike reviews where the product is good and bad and ok but never a comparison??? The fact that there is no mention of the Nomad, SB6C, Reign, etc in this test is a joke. Yet another ad that looks like a review. I get that you need ad revenue but Pinkbike, please 'grow a pair'.
  • + 2
 Just had the bike this weekend and all he is writing is true. except that i rode the 770msl with the rock shox deluxe and i was happy that i had the trail-mode.
anywas, @mikelevy your are 177cm height, i am 180cm. i loved the large. was the large not just a bit to long for you?
  • + 2
 Of course they have aluminum planned, just send your plans off to Taiwan for the carbon and back comes aluminum. They are cashing in on excited people first out of the gate on the Slayer with the pricey Carbon models. But alas by then my 2011 Slayer should be replaced by a Reign\Swoop\Enduro in aluminum, or not, its still a superb bike! (that was 1 yr old, brand new for 2600$ here in Alberta on the edge of the Rockies)
  • + 2
 The maiden blow my mind. 26" compatible, huge standard bearings, park geo, bombproof looking...
My thoughts was " if RM follows the maiden lines to design the slayer it's gonna be a sick bike". And now that... tiny and hidden pivots... looks weak and bearing replacement must be a pain in the ass. Seems like a sleek looking bike is the most important for enduro riders.
  • + 2
 I find it hard to not like a bike named Slayer. The pricing does seem to be on the high side of things. I looked at the $4999 Slayer 750ML version and it's got a decent parts pick (mostly slx, xt rear cassette) which are all very capable, but do seem to be specced for a lower price bike. I've never heard of the wheels on it (Alex Volar), but the suspension parts are good. For comparison a Yeti SB6 can be found at a similar spec, for $4799, and it's a "botique" brand.
  • + 4
 Interesting to see how adjusting the geometry changes the reach and stack measurements, it makes a bigger difference than I thought it might.
  • + 1
 Yes indeed.... depending on where it adjusts it gets more interesting.. I disagree with Mike's comment "I've said that adjustable geometry is a silly thing"... Banshee, Knolly, even..Trek.. This feature is handy..
  • + 2
 @Lagr1980:
Adjustable geometry might not seem great for an individual (I.e. most people will leave it in one setting) but it does mean that one model of bike can appeal to two different types of rider (one might always leave in the steep setting and the other in slack) and the manufacturer doesn't need to produce another model of bike to fill the gap in their range.
  • + 0
 @Lagr1980: Levy is also the youngest Bitter old man you will ever know... lol
  • + 2
 I rode my slayer at Whistler for the first time last weekend. For the previous two years I had rented the DH bikes. I bought the Slayer as a one bike that does everything, but had some hesitations about riding Whistler and if I would be happy. Pleased to say......... it completely exceeded expectations. It felt way faster, coming in and out of turns on runs like Dirt Merchant and A-line. The suspension ate up everything I threw at it, and the geometry felt incredible for jumping. I traded back with my GF for a run on her DH, and gave it back the next run as I wanted the Slayer back. It climbs better than advertised on your local trails (I ride in the 2nd most slack position, but changed to slackest for Whistler obviously), and truly is the first bike that I have rode that does it all for my type of riding! No doubt this is a pricy ride, but for my $$$$$$'s it is worth it.
  • + 6
 im no photographer but some brighter backgrounds might help.
  • + 3
 @mikelevy this kind of reminds me of your Patrol review. Really capable as everyone expects but more poppy and playful than you expected. How would you compare the two?
  • + 3
 Would also love to know how this compares to the patrol...
  • + 1
 Seems like pricing is a bit high, especially with Stans Flow wheels. I do love the idea of the flip chip that changes the geo of the bike by a significant amount, a whole degree on the HA is pretty sweet. Would love something like that for my bike, knowing that 90% of the time it would be in 1 setting, but for things like bike park days, it would be great to be able to switch it.

The slackest and steepest geo settings are shown, are the other 2 positions equally spread thought the range? Reach seems very short (on the XL end) and I'm surprised it doesn't change with frame size...
  • + 2
 People need to understand that at this price point, you're paying for bling... because all of the bikes are good. Concerning Rocky Mountain, I can't get into their paint jobs. That's just me.
  • + 1
 My 2002 Stumpjumper Comp called. It wants its paint job back!

www.bikepedia.com/QuickBike/ImageZoom.aspx?itemid=36969&if=2002%20Specialized%20Stumpjumper%20M4%20Comp.jpg

Seriously, though, it's a beautiful bike. I liked the color scheme back in 2002, and I like it now. Not sure what I think about the 170mm forks and all the adjustable geometry. Seems a little much for me. I'd probably set it in the steepest setting like @mikelevy says and forget it. If you were a serious racer, though, I can see the advantages.
  • + 5
 true slayer, it cut straight through that facking log!
  • + 1
 I've recently picked up a Slayer and it is the quietest bike I've ever owned. The comment about chain slap noise is non-existent in my model. In fact I've not heard the chain slap once since I've owned it. Keep the derailleur clutch engaged and make sure the chainstay protector is in place and all you'll hear is tires on trail. It's a great bike!
  • + 6
 Compatible 26+ Wink
  • + 2
 @mikelevy
The two settings you referenced are the slackest and steepest. Did you test out either if the middle settings? If so, what were your impressions?
  • + 3
 The spec on this bike is a Shimano lover's wet dream, XTR drivetrain, Saint Brakes, same as how I've spec'd my Spartan.
  • + 3
 one of the most beautiful bikes on the market, but no downtube protector is a deal breaker
  • + 0
 Let's be 5000% honest here: The ONLY "Issue" about pricing is we've allowed this scam to happen, we're at the point where someone could literally take dog poop, slap some paint on it, call it the next best thing since sliced bread and all of you would still pay $500,000 for it.
Until we stop buying crap products at ridiculous prices the industry wheels will keep turning and we will all be partially responsible because we give in to the problem instead of solutions.#mirror
  • + 1
 Built my own and have the most fun riding them. 160/170 mm is how my full suspension trail bike is setup. Definitely more for the decline than the incline, but a 1x10 zee drivetrain gets me there
  • + 3
 i just don't like that 1 piviot on the lower stays, id feel better if a bolt went right through and not hidden.
  • + 1
 if it rides anything like my maiden im going to love my slayer when it arrives, i did however get mine with a climb switch as i will more than likely keep it in the slack position.
  • + 3
 Some raw footage test I did of the Slayer 750! wapon! www.pinkbike.com/video/465229
  • + 1
 Would you take it on an all day epic?? Didn't here anything on that...most bikes can descend sick and climb well now, (yeti,pivot,ibis,scott,sc)but how comfortable is it?..they all go fast!! Duh
  • + 1
 amazing bike! i want one...but i cant afford one ...i ride 'cross grip 124'' a 300 euro new bike...witch is not bad for the money but cant afford this crazy enduro bikes...
  • + 1
 I bought the minions 2.5 wide trail and they measured to 2.25.. how could it be 0.25 off. Maxxis needs to figure out their sizing.
  • + 2
 With 35mm internal rims? The wide trail were design to work best with 35mm rims...
  • + 1
 Every maxxis I ever owned was narrower then advertised
  • + 1
 @boostin: yeah but didn't think the 2.5WT would be as narrow as 2.25!
  • + 1
 @Timo82: I have 34mm internal but it's legit 2.25. I just replaced 2.3 minions and it looked really similar so I measured it. 2.25 on the dot.
  • + 1
 @dvp8: Wow! I bought 2.5 too cause they had it on tbs, and installed it on my I9 24.5mm rim and didn't really saw a difference but tought that I would see it once on a 30mm rim this summer. Frown
  • + 1
 @mikelevy
Just wondering on the price, the Rocky website has the 790msl at 8800 and the 770 msl at7000. Is the price changing or is it a typo in the review?
  • + 2
 can't wait for the alloy or a steel one or titanium... something metal, iron, lead.
  • + 1
 what's different about this tire and a Minion DHF 2.5" that i've been running on my DH bike for years already? new name, same shit?
  • + 3
 The casing probably...
  • + 2
 I would do terrible things for this bike. But damn, 7k in this economy? Rocky Mountain is getting as gready as Specialized.
  • + 2
 Awesome looking bike! Rocky Mtn hit a home run with the design of the Slayer :yup:
  • + 1
 my 170 reverb has sag too. about 3 mm. is it worth sending to sram or should I service it. no help with the service in the internet for b1 model yet.
  • + 9
 i would always return sram products within the warranty time... their service is brilliant and (at least here in germany) you will get a brand new dropper send back to you within one week..
  • + 1
 @donpinpon29 service videos are on the Sram site for B1. Just go to the Reverb page and scroll down Smile
  • + 3
 It's quite a hassle to do an internal service to Reverb, so I'd definitely go for warranty replacement. Then I'd get something well engineered to replace it, like 9.8 or Bike Yoke.
  • + 1
 i still dont get why bike cmpanies dont spec travel adjust forks on bikes with 160mm+ travel up front. helps a bunch on the climbs.
  • + 20
 Cause a lot of travel adjust forks aren't quite as good as the fixed travel ones, someone has yet to nail that one I think, not to say there aren't good options out there, I just think they are slightly behind a solo air or float fork
  • + 7
 Because travel adjust forks are WAY less responsive than non travel adjust forks and no one care about being 2% more efficient on the climbs with such a rocket. I've been riding a 170 Lyrik DH2 on my 2011 Slayer for 6 years now and not ONCE did I complain about a lack of travel adjust. The steeper seat tube angle and the mini DH fork feeling more than made up for any downsides and I could still climb stuff on the bike I had trouble walking up!

That's why.
  • + 6
 Each to there own, I find talas makes a big difference over long rides and big climbs for loss in descending performance is marginal
  • - 1
 I used to like the idea of travel adjust forks but since gone off them for a number of reasons. Had the weirdest thing on one bike where dropping the fork felt like dropping a couple of gears i.e it got harder not easier! Never could work out why, I just stopped using the travel adjust. I use an oval chainring so I wondered if it was something to do with that but honestly never bothered to figure it out.
  • + 2
 Another drawback of those adjustable forks: it seems you can't add volume spacers to tune the airspring. Though a workaround would be to add some oil instead. The main reason remains that they aren't as good on the downs, so on such a bike that's be a shame. On a trail/XC rig, why not.
  • + 1
 @EnduroManiac: I had a totem dual position air and it just didn't work well on short travel. I literally only used it a couple of times. It weighed the same as coil, and my mate's coil totem was just on another level. Never get travel adjust!
  • + 1
 @jaame: the totem with arispring have had many issues anyway... We're also talking of another time, air spring got much better since then. But adjustable ones will always be a bit behind.
  • + 0
 You could change the RC2 damper for the CTD one... you lose HSC/LSC settings though...
  • + 3
 @ThomDawson: same here, for some odd reason when i drop my talas from 160 to 130 or even lower my bike would fell like a slug.
  • + 1
 @EnduroManiac: flip side to volume spacers you need to increase LSC to deal with dive. Endless tech talk through forums going over air volume and LSC effects and over use of HSC vs psi
In the end you can have 2 quite different setups but giving same performance just in varied ways.
  • + 1
 @nfa2005: i was starting to think it was just me ;-)
  • + 3
 @nprace: I care about being 2% more efficiency on the climbs.

Sorry your older dual position sucked balls in performance. Have you ridden a 2016 or newer fox talas? It has less o-rings than the float does and feels damn good.

Don't bag dual position when you haven't kept up with the times and don't bag it because you have become accostumed to shitty slacked geometry for climbing.

@viatch I've been asking fox for years to come out with a 170mm dual position and they have yet to listen...
  • + 2
 @ThomDawson: My theory is that by dropping the fork travel , it makes the bike plow up the hill, feeling less efficient.
Haven't had a travel adjust fork since 08' just for that reason.
  • + 1
 @Beez177: certainly feels like that. Like somebody just turned the drag up to 11. I didn't have the same issue on other bikes though, only on a vitus escarpe. It had a slack set...dunno if that made any difference but when I dropped the bike felt like I was riding through glue, lifted the forks again and it felt nice and light and efficient again. I love me a steep seat angle too, the steeper the better which made it seem even more strange as it felt better in the slack position.
  • + 3
 @EnduroManiac: The Pike RCT3 dual position can be tuned with tokens
  • + 2
 Pinkbike... Never a bad review.
  • + 3
 Agreed. This is so honest, unbiased, and well thought out. The bible of bike tests review really loved this bike but their reviews seem to be more about catchphrases and feelings based off of a half day on a bike. Not really worth a grain of salt IMO.
  • + 1
 @djyosh: judging by the position of the seat in the Bible review, and to a lesser extent this review, the Slayer is a pig going up hill. It's a fireroad up to single track back down or a bike park rig it would seem.
  • + 3
 This is because of trump
  • + 2
 Gorgeous suspension design.
  • + 3
 Im getting one.
  • + 1
 Just buy a 2017 Giant Reign Advanced 1 and call it a day. $5199 CANADIAN! and it has carbon wheels.....
  • + 2
 But I hope you are not comparing this bike with the 790msl in this review, which is Fox 36/float x2 equipped...

Sure, Giant will still be cheaper than a Rocky Mountain but...it is a Giant! I prefer to pay a little extra to have a Rocky Mountain over a Giant, Specialized, etc. To each their own.
  • + 1
 @Timo82: The Reign Advanced 1 is Fox 36 and Float x2 equipped as well... I just don't see where the extra 4 THOUSAND dollars is! When you consider the Reign has Carbon wheels, a more reliable dropper, oh and is lighter at 28 lbs...! Id rather buy the Giant and have 4 grand to pay for a seasons pass to Whistler and 10 weekends there in a 5 star hotel! Just my thoughts! Ride what you like!
  • + 1
 @typooner: Fox 36 PERFORMANCE is nowhere near a Fox36 FACTORY! Sorry if I had not made myself clear but I tought you knew the difference. Those are on 4-5000$ bikes vs 6-7-8000$ with Factory.
  • + 1
 Mike Levy is always the guy I go to for bike reviews...brutally honest and has the best one-liners, HANDS DOWN.
  • + 1
 Love the idea of this bike but out of my budget. Will be buying my first 4 - 5k mountain bike at the end of this year, EEP!!
  • + 2
 The pic under "Climbing"...that section of log cut out...C'mon. Weak.
  • + 1
 Any comparisons to Pivot Firebird?
  • + 1
 Now that's the momma titties.
  • + 1
 Whats the internal rim width? looks giant to me
  • + 1
 Price $6999 - how about no!
  • + 1
 great bike, great look -its the best.trust me its absulutely true
  • + 6
 Ok this whole "our country second" and talking like Drumph thing is getting out of hand. Pleas make it/him go away. ASAFP!
  • + 1
 I'd like to take one out for a riding Session.
  • + 1
 I like this bike, the price not that much...
  • - 3
 You want alloy yz250 Msrp $7,399 it comes with a motor and more tech. in the clutch than whole MTB bikes have
Bicycle prices have Zero relation to their value.

Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaapppt
  • - 4
flag torero (Feb 6, 2017 at 5:58) (Below Threshold)
 Amen
  • + 2
 You'll spend way more money maintaining a dirt bike then any mountain bike. Plus, YZ250 isn't fair, the above bike is more like a KTM 450 XC-F.
  • + 1
 @ryan83: If you look on Craigslist...this whole maintenance thing can be disputed.
  • + 2
 @ryan83: Agree totally with maintenance, my point is that what the bicycle industry calls bleeding edge has been on motorcycles for 20 years.
A bicycle is super simple in parts and tech. compared to motorcycles, yet the prices for bicycles is getting stupid.

The bicycle industry has done a great job marketing to create a need, and keep it moving in different directions to sell bikes, fact is you could probably throw a blanket over the top 10 bikes and you would be splitting hairs to say which is better.

I"m saying they are snowing us on value, some will say its what the market will bear, well that works for a while till the bikes get so good that there is no need to ride an $8000 bike when the $6,000 is just as good.
And that time is almost here, like XT and XTR
  • + 1
 @ryan83: nay Kawasakis
  • + 2
 I'd say we are more than there. You can pick up a very good new bike these days for $4000. It may weigh 2-3 pounds more than the $8000 version, and likely have less florescent colors, but the same rider will be just as fast.

This topic is interesting to me because I'm thinking of getting back into dirt bikes. I've been shopping and hitting the forums and I just can't believe how much work a MX bike needs to keep going. Honestly it's keeping me away from pulling the trigger.
  • + 1
 we wantssss it
  • + 1
 What does MSL stand for?
  • - 1
 blah blah blah price blah blah blah. Nothing new in the pinkbike comments as usual
  • + 1
 Thanks for adding something new for us to read. Cheers for that I feel enlightened
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