My question: Would it be harder to go from Cross Country (tons of slow twitch fitness and maybe not a ton of bike handling skills) to Enduro, or from DH (tons of bike handling skills and great fast twitch, explosive power) to Enduro.
7 stages, one day? 6h on a bike with DH skill required?
I would think DH to Enduro would have a higher success ratio than say, Endurance / XC rider to Enduro? I started out as a roadie and went single speed and then rigid XC frame and now ride a Capra and V10, and even though I have a decent amount of fitness, I'm always wishing I had started out in BMX or DH and could add fitness each season. For me, adding skill and muscle memory in tech sections seems more work and discipline than adding fitness. . .
I hope Sam crushes it this season! I can't wait to see how it plays out.
I went from DH to Enduro. It was pretty hard fitness wise. DH riding is physically demanding but enduro demands the physicality of DH....PLUS the fitness of XC.
All of the ex cross country guys smash it at our local Enduro races. You gotta think they're used to riding at threshold for longer on sketchy little bikes. Now put them on a bigger bike that can take gnarlier lines with breaks throughout the race and I'd say xc guys would find it easier.
I think it all starts from a younger age, BMX is key, if you're a good bike handler at a young age then that's what carries through. the fitness and other aspects can all be added later but it starts with the base level you have and starting sports at a young age is key. I think all successful riders have a BMX background, roadies, DH and XC.
@Tmackstab: This, all the really good XC guys I know have insane bike handling skills. I consider myself pretty fast, but when someone's keeping up with me on a decently technical downhill with no dropper, 120mm travel hardtail and little XC tires then I can only imagine how fast that guy would be on a proper DH or enduro bike.
@atrokz: ok, then it is the incorrect way to measure that.
what've seen on enduro tracks is that DHrs walk most of the liasons, on the other side yeah, XCers walk a few times during the down hills, but it is only a couple of steps or a huge drop, they lose a couple of seconds and that's it, while DHers last minutes or hours on the uphills which makes them DQ
@bashhard: Pretty sure that's not how it works. While anyone can improve endurance and power through proper training, we are each endowed with a certain ceiling of genetic potential. Some are better "natural" sprinters while others are "naturally" better equipped physiologically for endurance. And then there is the rare few who seem to have the goods for both...they win EWS races.
the xc bros kill it in the local enduro races. they might not go hard in the gnar like the gravity guys do but they have the lungs to push harder longer.
i talk mad shit to em for rocking 29'ers and no travel knowing they will smoke me on the pedally stages.
@Tmackstab: Same in my area, the fastest enduro guys are either pro XC or have some sort of endurance backgorund. I think people forget that XC racers like to have fun too and often times grew up dirt jumping and what not like most mountain bkers. It's these new age riders that convert straight from road to XC that suck at handling bikes.
@bashhard: Not true! The fast twitch fibers you are referring to are probably type 2a (unless you're a world class sprinter) and can be converted from 2a oxidative which behaves more like a slow twitch fiber or a 2b which behaves more like a true max speed and force fast twitch fiber. It's all about the exercise and stimulus you train for.
@Tmackstab: this is a great question, who can transition to Enduro better XC or DH riders. As a racer that does all three disciplines I would say that at the Pro level the transition will be pretty similar because some tracks will favor skill, power, and precision and some will favor endurance and stamina. That's what make Enduro so exciting, because you never know which track or race will be in your wheelhouse.
On the flip side, at the amateur level most DH riders are too lazy to prepare properly and will get hammered by a decent XC rider anytime the trails past 3:00 minutes or have any type long pedal or hill climb. You can make up seconds on the DH sections but possibly minutes on pedal sections.
@Tmackstab: the current results from the mos recent EWS only serves to solidify the fact that DHers are indeed the fastest riders on the planet for both disciplines.
@Narro2: all ews results, including the one from yesterday proves that is not only incorrect but isnt based in any form of reality. The dhers put minutes into the rest of the rank yesterday.
@Breeconay: word from racers was they all ended up racing in the rain after the first stage and the course was wet for everyone by the end. The complaint was that the trail was getting dicy with all the riders, but this isnt any different than the course getting chewed out in DH before the pros go and any consumate professional would expect this. At any rate, this an every single ews event results only serves to illustrate and drive home the point that xc guys arent winning any of these events any time soon. Which was the entire point of this thread.
@atrokz: man, just looking at the results dont tell me anything i dont know all riders so i cant tell which riders have XC background and which DH background.
let's do it simpler, imagine we can put Nino Schurter and Danny Hart compete against each other on this last EWS track, and tell me who would win.
@Narro2: Danny Hart. It's basically a DH race with some non-timed liaison stages that takes fitness to cover. Considering how fit Danny is, and how immensely skilled he is compared to the rest of the world (and Nino, lets not kid ourselves here trying to manipulate reality to direct the conversation), it's a no brainer imo. Dany is one of the best bike handlers on the planet.
For the future, this is a neat tool to see results of racers against eachother (provided they raced the same races). It's great for this type of discussion, and will provide you with statistics about all of this so we don't need to pretend a XC guy has a change of winning an EWS any time soon.
2016 winners: Martin Maes (former GT DHer), Sam Hill (DH), Richie Rude (DH), Jared Graves (DH, 4X, BMX), RR, Gregory Callaghan (raced DH before enduro), RR, RR.
2015: Bunch of former DHers win
2014: more of the same
So yea, you can create all the hypothetical matchups you want, but *reality* and *statistics* illustrate very clearly, that this is DH with climbing transfers. Even the DHers say this. Why would you think a XC guy could just show up and win? Tomac still around? A XC guy is going to win a DH WC? I have no doubt the top XC guys are incredibly skilled but this isn't their ballgame and local events where XC guys go to school unprepared amateurs isn't a great anecdotal example. At this level, they wouldn't be able to hang with the shear speed these guys have. Different discipline entirely.
@atrokz: thanks for elaborating, was that so hard? you just needed a little push
now, can you put in your case the ratio of how many XC riders per DH riders in the EWS? or simpler how many riders have XC Background and how many have DH background.
@Narro2: I spent enough time providing you with information. I'm not going to illustrate the lack of XC guys in enduro top 20 results. Aren't you supposed to be busy laying brick for that wall anyway
@Narro2: tell you what we can do to squash this nonsense. I'll wager $100CAD that ALL winners this year won't be current or former WC XC racers. Want to take me up on this bet? We can continue it out to 2019 if you want.
@fullbug: i had to google doonies, haha, the wife was nearby so I coudlnt watch the whole thing
atrokz was drawing towards a good conclusion, just a little pretentiousness got in the way
I do agree EWS podiums are dominated by riders with DH background, but the other fact is that EWS is mostly former DH riders.
On a nonprofesional level XC riders will have fitness (endurance) as their advantange for the transitions and to last the whole race during several days, plus they are moving from a smaller bike to a bigger one which compensates for the "lack" of handling skills.
@Narro2: You're hurting not helping your point. Fewer XC pros in the top rung of Enduro (EWS) indicates they are not able to qualify to compete at the top level. Also, with few companies even building XC machines, it stands to reason their sponsors would encourage them to race in a sport where they sell the most bikes and widely covered by the most popular mtb media outlet in the world (you're reading it).
If only Enduro racing was around when John Tomac was racing. He would have been a threat to win on any day just like in XC, DH, Dual Slalom and BMX prior to that. IMHO - the best all around offroad rider ever.
@Rubberelli: is not about helping or hurting someone elses point, I was just trying to figure out what factors contribute or affect getting into a new discipline from another one.
Now, XC riders not qualifying to the EWS might be partially true due to their "lack" of handling skills as you mention it, but it also brings the question what pays more?, an EWS podium or an XCWC podium. $$$$$ might be the other factor why XC riders dont go to EWS. I dont know I might be wrong, i am putting the question out there....
No doubt DH pros have an advantage on DH tracks. Based on all the pics and videos I've watched, having never attended an EWS race, the race stages appear to be long DH tracks, thus favoring DH skills and power. On the flip side, lets not kid ourselves, ALL DH pros have enough XC fitness to be competitive in an XC race, at least at the national level if not world cup.
When Enduro was being marketed heavily to the American riding community just a few years ago, it was described as the best measure of "all around mtb ability" as well as described as "a race format where a mid travel trail bike would be the weapon of choice." But that's not how Enduro has panned out on the world stage, a bike with 170mm fork, 65 degree head tube, and low bottom bracket is closer to a mini-DH bike, rather than a trail bike.
Design stages with more climbing and top XC pros would rise in the results rankings.
Nearly every time a pro DH guy/gal makes a big improvement in their results, they attribute their gains to improved fitness training.
@Tmackstab: thanks for asking... I am a Exercise Physiologist by profession so this is right in my wheelhouse. At the Pro level, skill is already their strong suit and least likely to be lost over a short period but endurance can be gained or lost pretty quickly depending on the attention in their training. Also, the term endurance is also a misleading terminology when talking about sports in general because it could be referring to one's ability to sustain effort or one's ability to recover. In our sport of mountain bike racing (DH, Enduro, XC) all of these factors are important but DH requires one to sprint to red-line and recover, sprint and recover. Enduro these days are leaning more toward DH type of tracks but doing it over and over for 5-7 stages/hours long so the need to sprint and recover during the timed stages is needed, while being able to pedal on transfers without burning out is where the paced stamina comes in and repeat. XC for the most part is all about paced stamina by knowing the distance, elevation, and effort needed in sections to maintain your best overall speed. I hope that helps... Ride on...
For those of you who want to see Sam on the big rig dont despair. Had a chat with the man a couple of weeks ago at a local XCM race in Perth and he did in fact say he will race a couple of DH rounds this year and try to get points to qualify for the world champs in Cairns. Did not discuss which ones but he was pretty keen to get a place on the Aussie team this year after missing out last year for the first time in many many years.
Im hoping he tears the EWS apart and makes the Champs for a truly awesome season. Go Sam!!!
We always hear how tough Brits are for riding in shit weather... hm... I personally have big issues with heat... I'd rather push the bike up for such video shoot in the middle of the pissing rain than in fkng Australian heat... I'd also prefer muddy forest ground than that fkng clay turning into sticky butter after torrential rain fall. Oh did I mention that half od living things in Australia can sting you, kick you, bite you and generally give you a miserable agonizing death?
RESPECT AUSTRALIA. GREAT STUFF MR HILL!!! Sam Hill and Jared Graves are total bad asses.
Thats, one thing that i like about Canada - everything that can kill ya is big enough to see. At least you know your gonna get killed when you see a grizzly charging at you, the creepy crawlies give no warning in Australia
@WAKIdesigns don't listen to us our weather is awesome. Wet and muddy definitely but it never gets cold, hardly any snow or ice always the perfect temperature to ride in. We're all just a bunch of drama queens. I'd take that over Sam Hill weather any day.
Good to see someone with as many accolades as Sam still knows where it's at: being a parent, as hard as it can be sometimes, is the best feeling in the world. Plus you can force the little buggers to be your riding buddies.
Damn it Sam, you stole my idea. I had this idea of doing a bike edit on our local trails here in the Philly area "The Wiss" using this exact same song. Our local trails make me feel happy and magical on many days just like the lover in this song.
It's clearer now. Sam has new priorities with his family. To win in DH world cup circuit is very risky (very high speeds in rough tracks). Maybe it's not worth it anymore. He has nothing more to prove in DH. So he's moving on. With much respect.
Awesome Vid. Thanks for sharing that. Good luck this weekend and for the season. Could not have spoken better to me, going riding today with music and footage.
One of my favourite riders of all time. Sad that we probably won't see him on the big bike again, but stoked to see him still ripping on the world stage.
7 stages, one day? 6h on a bike with DH skill required?
I would think DH to Enduro would have a higher success ratio than say, Endurance / XC rider to Enduro?
I started out as a roadie and went single speed and then rigid XC frame and now ride a Capra and V10, and even though I have a decent amount of fitness, I'm always wishing I had started out in BMX or DH and could add fitness each season.
For me, adding skill and muscle memory in tech sections seems more work and discipline than adding fitness. . .
I hope Sam crushes it this season! I can't wait to see how it plays out.
There's your irrefutable answer.
what've seen on enduro tracks is that DHrs walk most of the liasons, on the other side yeah, XCers walk a few times during the down hills, but it is only a couple of steps or a huge drop, they lose a couple of seconds and that's it, while DHers last minutes or hours on the uphills which makes them DQ
On the flip side, at the amateur level most DH riders are too lazy to prepare properly and will get hammered by a decent XC rider anytime the trails past 3:00 minutes or have any type long pedal or hill climb. You can make up seconds on the DH sections but possibly minutes on pedal sections.
Elaborate please
www.enduroworldseries.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/EWS-Rotorua_Start-List.pdf
let's do it simpler, imagine we can put Nino Schurter and Danny Hart compete against each other on this last EWS track, and tell me who would win.
For the future, this is a neat tool to see results of racers against eachother (provided they raced the same races). It's great for this type of discussion, and will provide you with statistics about all of this so we don't need to pretend a XC guy has a change of winning an EWS any time soon.
www.rootsandrain.com/race4480/2017-mar-26-enduro-world-series-1-rotorua/results
From EWS, find me one XC winner or even a top contender in the past: www.enduroworldseries.com/2017-results
2016 winners: Martin Maes (former GT DHer), Sam Hill (DH), Richie Rude (DH), Jared Graves (DH, 4X, BMX), RR, Gregory Callaghan (raced DH before enduro), RR, RR.
2015: Bunch of former DHers win
2014: more of the same
So yea, you can create all the hypothetical matchups you want, but *reality* and *statistics* illustrate very clearly, that this is DH with climbing transfers. Even the DHers say this. Why would you think a XC guy could just show up and win? Tomac still around? A XC guy is going to win a DH WC? I have no doubt the top XC guys are incredibly skilled but this isn't their ballgame and local events where XC guys go to school unprepared amateurs isn't a great anecdotal example. At this level, they wouldn't be able to hang with the shear speed these guys have. Different discipline entirely.
now, can you put in your case the ratio of how many XC riders per DH riders in the EWS? or simpler how many riders have XC Background and how many have DH background.
this will greatly improve your statistics
atrokz was drawing towards a good conclusion, just a little pretentiousness got in the way
I do agree EWS podiums are dominated by riders with DH background, but the other fact is that EWS is mostly former DH riders.
On a nonprofesional level XC riders will have fitness (endurance) as their advantange for the transitions and to last the whole race during several days, plus they are moving from a smaller bike to a bigger one which compensates for the "lack" of handling skills.
So for nonpross it might be different???
I think it would be very different for non-pros, since pros in DH are training a lot.
Now, XC riders not qualifying to the EWS might be partially true due to their "lack" of handling skills as you mention it, but it also brings the question what pays more?, an EWS podium or an XCWC podium. $$$$$ might be the other factor why XC riders dont go to EWS. I dont know I might be wrong, i am putting the question out there....
When Enduro was being marketed heavily to the American riding community just a few years ago, it was described as the best measure of "all around mtb ability" as well as described as "a race format where a mid travel trail bike would be the weapon of choice." But that's not how Enduro has panned out on the world stage, a bike with 170mm fork, 65 degree head tube, and low bottom bracket is closer to a mini-DH bike, rather than a trail bike.
Design stages with more climbing and top XC pros would rise in the results rankings.
Nearly every time a pro DH guy/gal makes a big improvement in their results, they attribute their gains to improved fitness training.
RESPECT AUSTRALIA. GREAT STUFF MR HILL!!! Sam Hill and Jared Graves are total bad asses.
Gees first win at Schladming enjoyed with the dulcet tones of The Cure
What a cool guy...makes it look so easy!
...Sam's edits have changed A LOT!!
youtu.be/gyG_qqB_ebc
That gap at :57 - I've been watching that for years, and it still doesn't get old.
What about something Australian? The Angels - Take a Long Line for example?