Schwalbe Announces Dual Chamber Tire System Details

Jun 26, 2014
by Mike Kazimer  
We first experienced Schwalbe's new dual chamber tire and wheel system back in February, but at that time Schwalbe wasn't ready to reveal its inner workings. The system, now called Procore, has already seen success on both the World Cup DH and Enduro World Series circuits, and now details are being released that confirm our suspicions about what the inner workings involve. The official press release from Schwalbe is below. - Mike Kazimer


Schwalbe Procore

No more snake-bite punctures: A revolutionary dual chamber system makes it possible to ride with very low air pressures and, as a result, improve tire performance enormously. Initially, Schwalbe and the wheel manufacturer Syntace were working on such a system independently of each other. Now, the two companies have joined forces to further develop the dual chamber system.

With low air pressure, off-road tire performance improves significantly. The tires can adapt better to the terrain and react far more sensitively. They roll more easily over uneven ground and provide more grip and control. "But one can hardly risk riding on standard MTB tires with less than 1.5 bar (20psi), because the risk of snake bites is simply too great", explains Markus Hachmeyer, Senior Product Manager. With the current trend towards wide wheel rims, the trail performance of the tires at low air pressure is improved and has become less "spongy". The risk of snake bites, however, remains the same.

The solution is an innovative dual chamber system. There is an additional air chamber inside the tire. This inner chamber is filled with high air pressure (55-85psi) and effectively prevents the tire hitting the edge of the rim. At the same time, the inner system also secures the tire on the rim and prevents the dreaded "burping", a loss of air of the tubeless system in the case of low pressure. Depending on the situation, the air pressure in the outer chamber can now be reduced to 1 bar (14psi) without running any risk.

Schwalbe Dual Valve. Matt Wragg photo.
Nico Lau rode the system to victory at the Tweedlove stop of the Enduro World Series, and Emmeline Ragot and Sam Hill both stood on the podium at Fort William after running the Procore system. Photo: Matt Wragg.

"All test cyclists to date have been thrilled with the new possibilities," reports Markus Hachmeyer and recaps the feedback:

With one bar (14psi), the tire grip is incredible. The contact surface is very large and the tires seldom, if ever, slide on loose ground. Even on the roughest terrain, the tires literally stick to the ground. The tire is the most sensitive cushioning element on the bike. The extra cushioning and traction because of the low air pressure leads to much better control over the bike and allow distinctly higher speeds.All this without the risk of snake-bite punctures. Dented rims become a thing of the past. Significantly lighter tires can be used in even the toughest conditions. What is more, the additional air chamber has excellent emergency running characteristics.

Schwalbe Procore

In order to exploit the advantages of the low tire pressure without risking a puncture, Schwalbe and Syntace were working on the same idea independently of each other and had also applied for patents. Now, the two companies are pooling their know-how to develop the system to market maturity. "At the latest at the Eurobike, we will be able to present precise information regarding design and prices," says Markus Hachmeyer. Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm. Weight is expected to be less than 200g.


www.schwalbe.com

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281 Comments
  • 206 5
 Probably a bit expensive right now but I'm sure they'll get cheaper with deflation.
  • 58 3
 This thread should have blown up with puns by now...
  • 80 3
 This article is getting a lot of traction. Making me pumped up on the inside.
  • 19 93
flag Terrafire (Jun 26, 2014 at 16:43) (Below Threshold)
 What is this, Reddit?
  • 60 4
 @ Terrafire No, it's a Schwalbe Dual Chamber Tire System.
  • 45 8
 man i am getting tired of all these puns!
  • 23 6
 I'm pumped, can't wait for their roll out to the LBS!
  • 33 5
 Tread lightly with the puns, Terrafire is tired of them.
  • 46 7
 Man, Terrafire's a bit of a knob.
  • 40 6
 Awwww.. Terafire's all deflated from your tireless puns. He can't get any traction on Pinkbike.
  • 20 4
 Looks like Terrafire needs to get a grip on the Pinkbike etiquette...
  • 18 4
 Terrafire's a flat out dual chambered pun hater…
  • 40 2
 He really folded under pressure
  • 10 3
 This duel with snake bites makes me wanna chamber one and pull the trigger.
  • 9 1
 Gwin will be on fire with tires at all times.
  • 6 1
 This article really got down to the core of tire technology.
  • 10 1
 I hope the claims about how well these work aren't inflated
  • 14 1
 These puns are driving me up the side wall
  • 2 11
flag nickydh (Jun 26, 2014 at 21:18) (Below Threshold)
 These look coreible. I won't be satisfied until I see a few pro's wheeling out on them.
  • 6 1
 Some of these puns are really treading into dangerous territory.
  • 3 1
 Now my 2 ply will work better with less skid marks left behind...hurray!
  • 11 1
 You people need to get a grip on yourselves, these puns blow... I felt pressured to make one of my own
  • 9 2
 It really rubbers me up when tired old men are tubes and blow their valves over these pun statements. I propose a duel and first puncture wound looses. The pressure is on pun haters.
  • 5 1
 Tread lightly , dont rush into buying these.
  • 27 1
 Well shit.
  • 5 3
 The cure for pinch flats? Great! Its like Preparation H for the hoops. It should do a good job on the rim.
  • 4 0
 Seems like the solution to being flat are these inflatable implants
  • 4 0
 These puns are as annoying as being bitten by a snake! I also tire myself out trying to roll through this wheelhouse of puns that are spinning out of control, but they spoke up sooner, so my efforts are drifting away, and now i look like a knob. We need to gain traction on this argument by telling people not to tread on our website! you people are so full of hot air... i'm gonna go watch the tube.
  • 4 0
 These puns are becoming a thorn in my side
  • 69 0
 I heard Gwin ordered a dozen sets of these.
  • 10 7
 while running low psi give more suppleness to the tire which is great for traction but over time this quickly fatigues the side wall. OK if you r a pro riding on new $100 tread every race. but us normal punters will end up replacing a tire because of this well before the tread is worn out
  • 3 1
 Will the high pressure bladder offer some support to the sidewalls to help prevent that?
  • 3 0
 It stated that due to having a high pressure chamber keeping the bead and sidewall structure secure, will help prevent dented rims, and in turn also provides much more traction and stability with the low pressure chamber.
  • 5 1
 @wasabijim you can still run the pressure you always run, but avoiding flats
  • 5 6
 Fatigues the sidewall? I've been running pressures in the low twenties for two seasons (pinch flats be damned) on my front 2.4in tire and the sidewall doesn't seem to have burst into flames. In fact, working as a mechanic at an LBS for a few years, I can't remember seeing a single fatigued sidewall. Scuffed yes, torn yes, bruised yes... But never fatigued.
  • 7 0
 i'm talking at around 20psi levels. my conti's where showing a cross work of raw and fraying canvas well before the treat was end of life, or even close to it. They didn’t blow out, but it can’t be ideal. I see the same pattern starting on my mates Schwalbe and maxxis treads.
  • 1 0
 oh no...
  • 2 0
 Aaah there is no way that a side wall can't last a week or les no mater how low the pressure is
  • 9 0
 Why? Gwin doesn't need tyres.
  • 4 4
 Cross lines on your sidewalls from running low pressures is normal. Nothing to worry about at all.
  • 2 1
 No he didn't, he just proved that they are already obsolete.
  • 1 0
 It is a worry when the sidewalks wear so much the sealant can no longer keep them inflated
  • 2 5
 at 20 psi leakage through the sidewalls isnt going to be an issue. however burping will. this system should solve that tho
  • 1 0
 this is nothing new Le' System by Michelin was used years ago. this seems more refined which is good, but its not a new concept.
  • 26 1
 Why not put the valves on opposite sides of the rim to counterbalance each other?
  • 2 0
 Agreed.
  • 4 2
 Honestly I don't think the tiny valve will throw the whole rim out of balance much, if it did I'm sure they would have seen that and fixed it during testing
  • 5 0
 Next thing we will need to buy after this is weights and wheel balancing machines....
  • 2 0
 im sure there is a little blob of something on the opposite side to balance it.
  • 3 6
 EpicDrezz. Put your bike in a stand and pedal until the rear wheel is spinning like mad. Your stand will now be shaking violently. If it is not secured it will quite possibly fall over. I can definitely see this system making that problem worse. I have thought for a long time bike wheels could do with being better balanced...
  • 3 1
 Well for me that would happen anyways because I am missing a spoke on my rear wheel and there is a small flat spot, but its not noticeable when I'm riding on trails, I can only feel it when I'm on smooth pavement, so I don't really care if mu wheel is perfectly balanced.
  • 2 5
 you will go faster on a well balanced wheel whether you feel it or not. You are right tho, its not going to be a huuuge difference.
  • 2 1
 Well I'm not a hardcore racer, I've raced a few times, but I mostly ride just for fun with my buddies so I'm not really concerned about speed much, I can understand if your someone who races alot, but for an average rider like myself its not an issue for me.
  • 2 4
 Fair enough. I don't really race either but it still kills me inside if one of my mates goes faster than me. I'm always racing myself I guess.
  • 1 0
 When you buy the system, I am sure you can drill your second hole on the opposing side....
  • 4 0
 Unless there will be specific rims for this system with 2 holes like that from the factory (there definitely will be). Would feel pretty retarded to drill a 3rd one lol
  • 3 2
 retarded? what are you on about?

"expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm."

I think that means, unless I am wrong, that this new system can be retrofitted with your CURRENT tyre and rim combo... for which, I would imagine, you will need a second hole in your current rim, which has ONE hole.... to put a second hole in your current rim, you will need to DRILL it... I can imagine, or speculate, that it will not make a difference WHERE you drill that hole.

No third hole needed, keep that for your gf.
  • 2 0
 Yup, no problem when retrofitted. I just hope they won't produce specific rims to this system with a valve orientation like in this article. Not that it would make a world of a difference.
  • 1 0
 Kanioni... sorry for my last post man... I came across as aggressive I think. I take it back!
  • 2 0
 No problem mate!
  • 3 1
 you couldn't drill directly opposite the original valve as this would mean drilling directly through the weld. still, i reckon its the tyre that causes most of the imbalance
  • 1 0
 Yup, although who says the other hole needs to be opposite to the seam? I was also wondering how much a weld or a pin in pinned rims counterbalances the weight of a valve?

Edit- You're probably right about tires.
  • 3 0
 Lets just all agree that at the current price of these 90% wont be running these anyways so unless these drop in price significantly we don't have to worry about drilling rims, no pun intended.
  • 1 0
 I know roadies, especially TT riders, were using weights on the opposite side of the rim to counterbalance the valve but given the higher top speeds (though smaller wheels probably counter that) and lighter tyres/wheels/longer valves probably exacerbate the effect the valve has on wheel balance and force. I think drilling an extra hole in your rim could well invalidate your warranty though...so early adopters only for now
  • 25 0
 I like it simply for the fact that two air valves looks pretty cool.
  • 61 0
 And you can put two scull valvecaps. And be the coolest kid on the block.
  • 17 0
 It's all about the dice.
  • 22 0
 Why not BOTH! put a skull on the high pressure and dice on the low Smile
  • 3 1
 What about those flash light stem caps? Will be shining
  • 22 1
 Both! No way - that's dicing with death
  • 5 0
 You need to identify each chamber, and what better way than bling
  • 7 0
 And you get to drill an extra hole through you're rims to save weight
  • 2 1
 you could run 2 before this... i remember a few years ago when a few of the wc teams had a tube in one side , and tubeless in the other for race runs incase they got a flat .
  • 1 0
 You mean Smith's two valves. Since he's a Schw rider, I guess that was a proto for this system.
  • 1 0
 no. the evil team and a few others .
  • 10 1
 Would of made more sense to have the valves opposite each other surely for balancing sake ?
  • 1 0
 pretty sure Mik Hannah ran 2 valves similar to this back in his GT days
  • 16 0
 When using low pressures, The problem for me was not pinch flats but the tire collapsing on itself and rolling around on the rim in g-outs. Hopefully it works for that too. I run 27psi front but would love to be able to run 18 or so. Im sure my hands would thank me in 30 years time.
  • 2 0
 Feels like the first time I ran tubeless, I ran like 15 psi or something stupid in the back and ripped the tire off the rim in my first hard corner Big Grin
  • 5 0
 if I run anything less than 40 psi this happens to me but I am 245 lbs.
  • 1 2
 i run 35 and im only 130 .. but its more because it rolls a hell of alot faster ..... i wonder if itll be decetn rolling speed still .. probly wont run any lower then 25 anyway with this
  • 10 9
 High pressure only rolls faster on tarmac , off road lower pressures roll faster as the tire conforms to the ground rather than bouncing off.
  • 9 0
 bigburd
try explaining that one to trail / xc riders
  • 3 2
 "High pressure only rolls faster on tarmac , off road lower pressures roll faster as the tire conforms to the ground rather than bouncing off."

HAHAHAHA oh i thought you were joking
  • 7 5
 I'm talking about proper off road situations aka DH , not trail center/bike park stuff thats groomed to hell , ya know roots/rocks ?

You ever wondered why even the top WC racers run less than 30 PSI in the rear ?

Not only do you get more traction but the tires conform to the roots and rocks and roll thru them rather than bouncing over them and losing momentum.

If you think you need more than 30 PSI then take a second and consider what the fastest guys in the world run and then compare that to your own speed/skills and trails ridden.
  • 4 2
 I don't see why everyone is neg propping bigburd he's completely correct, I think the easiest way to explain this is by using road/track examples. Track riders use 220psi+ because they're on completely smooth surfaces so it makes sense, road riders use 100-120psi roughly because the surfaces are bumpy and the tires need to conform instead of bouncing around (your wheels are faster on the ground...) so it would make just as much sense to use lower pressures in harsh terrain no? If you're in a bike park then it's okay to use higher pressures but on roots you have no reason to run higher pressure. Also I find it cool how people will spend money on Saints/Codes then run their tires at high pressure reducing the advantage those brakes give you (power requires traction).
  • 4 0
 we all know the theory you are quoting and yes when your forward momentem is provided by gravity the constant deformation of said tyre ( rolling resistance , which requires much energy X distance ) is not a factor as the extra grip outways the the increased rolling resitance. But if your forward momentum is provided by the rider a compromise must be reached over tracction and rolling resistance I tend to go for Higher pressures and skill over roots rocks etc . this gives me a harser ride but I can go ( overall ) faster and ride for longer as I said this is not about DH or Trail centres but local natrual single track in UK Cotswolds lots of climbing involved
  • 2 1
 Yes, bigburd is right. And he's saying the same thing the article says, and what pros know and do themselves, and trail riders all over, not just DHers, are discovering every day. I don't understand the negative props on bigburd's comments either, @finnrambo. Whatevs, now this comment will get them too. Have fun bouncing off of roots and rocks and subjectively thinking you're going faster just because your bike feels like it sprints up to speed a tad quicker on smooth ground. Tech sections, tire slippage and hard cornering be damned.
  • 2 0
 Wasting your breath dude ( or is that finger tips ? Razz )
  • 19 0
 Going tubeless and still being protected...could have used this in college
  • 9 1
 turns out this rubber is protection from bites, burps, and worst of all folding over.... are we still talking about bikes?
  • 7 0
 Looks similar to the Moto system Tubliss, great idea, I always want to run low pressure on my MTB as it feels awesome on my moto trials but the dreaded snake bite or burp has been the issue. Want to try it!
  • 12 4
 I'm tired of losing traction - this should be a great way to inflate my performance on the trails
  • 9 11
 the best way to increase ride performance it to work on your core
  • 7 4
 It seems you now have extra pressure to inflate your performance
  • 10 2
 I don't think your inner puns are rolling out quite as well as they schwalbee.
  • 2 2
 ...
  • 7 3
 This pun trend in the comments is really gaining traction.
  • 9 3
 Two air is human...
  • 10 6
 Can't wait to try this out! Flats are a true bane of gravity rider's (or any rider's) existence! Only caveat is going to be cost if the chamber is sewn into the tire. Big $$$ for the system is worth it, but I imagine the tire tread itself will be the same. Hopefully the system can have the tread replaced. ie: Move the system to a new tire once it wears down. Especially with good gravity tire being gone in only a few good runs of practice.
  • 20 0
 "...is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm."
nothing is sewn into anything else, it's just a high pressure bladder you install like a tube - just like the nuetech system mentioned when this was first announced. do you guys actually read the words on the page?
more : enduro-mtb.com/en/exclusive-looking-inside-schwalbes-procore-dual-chamber-tire-system
  • 3 8
flag Mcgeezy (Jun 26, 2014 at 16:03) (Below Threshold)
 I watched an edited video of Sam Hill and Troy pedaling down the motorway at fortwilliam. Troy speeds ahead quickly after the hip jump underneath the gondola with the help of clips over Sam, but perhaps Sam was also slower because of the minimalist pressure in the tyre system he was using. This prompts a question: Wouldn't running lower pressure still result in poor rolling speed however? Obviously a good idea for most tracks.
  • 9 11
 Low pressure = slow roling speed?
I would recommend some reading...
  • 4 0
 Yes, but I bet you can pump the outer system up to suite the track and rider best.
  • 4 2
 You don't have to run 15psi, a tyre at that pressure would be like dragging a dead horse along but would give excellent grip, you can just run w/e pressure you need
  • 7 5
 higher pressures are not always beneficial if trying to reduce rolling resistance. on smooth ground higher pressure will help a lot. however in rocky terrain for example, a softer tyre will tend to bounce less, conforming to the surface better. this means the wheel will be deflected less, meaning you lose less speed. i would be more concerned about how squirmy the bike would feel with pressures much under 20psi. i can imagine it feeling a little odd at first having essentially a two stage tyre that changes feel as you push through a corner. imagine the tuning possibilities tho!
  • 6 6
 Gabriel you're confusing rolling resistance with traction buddy... Lower tyre pressure = larger surface area in contact with ground = greater rolling resistance. Traction is a by-product but there's more to it than that
  • 6 3
 No gabriel is 100% correct. In rough terrain high pressure will most definitely increase resistance because of increased deflection, causing your suspension to work more. Also more chatter/deflection increases lateral movement which robs you of forward momentum--technically not increased rolling resistance but the net effect is the same. It's just common sense and very easy to test what pressure works best for you and your riding style.
  • 2 0
 its a thin line to balance all of the factors . now what is the perfect pressure:ground ratio? does this mean that different amounts of suspension will dictate what pressure you should run ? lololololol
  • 2 1
 Just ride your bike with suspension and tyres how you like it. Simple.
  • 3 3
 That is false - Higher pressures are always faster rolling that softer pressures, on rough terrain or not. You will be slower in turns obviously because lack of grip with a higher pressure.
  • 4 0
 do you evan drift bro?
  • 3 1
 @mcgeezy imagine riding into a curb with rock hard tires. your wheels would bounce, converting a reasonable amount of forward momentum into upward momentum. with softer tires your wheel will deflect much less, so less of your forward momentum is lost. riding a fatbike with 4" tires at 10psi you would hardly even notice the curb and barely lose any speed at all. the fatbike will certainly waste the most energy on a smooth hard surface, but a road tyre at 100psi would be far more wasteful in 3ft of snow. its not really as simple as more pressure=less drag unless you ride purely on road
  • 3 0
 read this: www.mtbonline.co.za/info/mtb-tyre-rolling-resistance.htm
  • 2 0
 I0c0 good link
Also this one to back it up
www.schwalbetires.com/wider_faster_page

Also this is not new its been used in motos but more importantly its been used in mtb before back with Michelin create "le system" riffle and peaty both used it.
  • 1 0
 The only issue is that we are focusing on the tire alone here, when we take into account suspension and its effect under different tire pressures that may change the results. Really there needs to be an overall package test not one that isolates the tire.
  • 1 3
 I assumed the word resistance was a scientific term relating hereby to friction, how wrong I was to be unaware of 'Pinkbike rolling resistance' which is obviously different... If you were riding said fatbike into a kerb, you would be going 1/2 the feckin speed in the first place so that logic is entirely out!!! McGeezy seems to understand at least
  • 2 1
 ctd07

The term "resistance" relating to hoch much the tyre "resists" allowing you to continue rolling forward. Its quite simple really. Your argument that the fatbike would be going half the speed in the first place is absolutely incorrect. What if this kerb was actually 4 feet high but under 3.8 feet of snow? At that point the fatbike would be pretty much the fastest thing you could hit the curb on. If you are going to try and make out my comment is unscientific, it would help if you didn't make it very clear you have a very limited grasp of science yourself...
  • 1 1
 hoch? dunno how i managed that one.... should say "how"
  • 1 0
 It is not about hitting a kerb.. My average trail has small stones and roots all over the place.. Everything you ride over with too much pressure is slowing you down because the Energy is used to move your Ass up and over the object instead of the Tire deflecting and you moving straight on. It is even noticeable on ruff fire roads.. Suspension only works for the bigger obstacles and still eats much more forward momentum than a deflecting tire. You whole wheel needs to be lifted and the initial resistance of the Suspension must be overcome.. Just try it the next time you go for a ride
  • 1 1
 a curb on an enourmous tyre is just a more extreme example of the same effect
  • 1 1
 ctd07

You are assuming resistance on a flat smooth surface where the only resistance is coming from the friction created by the tire and the ground. When you add in bumps you have another force acting against the bike slowing it down, by running less pressure you reduce/cushion the force acting against the bike and this allows you to keep more forward momentum. Thereby decreasing the resistance.

The issue is we cant just look at it like one over the other, going too soft will be slower, going too hard will be slower. there is a range of what would be ideal. I'm assuming something like a bell curve. This will than change on each track too.
  • 4 0
 this is awesome. It will allow for the construction of a more supple, compliant sidewall along with the safely to run lower pressures without needed beefy, dead feeling carcasses. Ideal for ultra wide rims. This will change the approach to tire engineering in a good way, and tread design can consider the lower pressures and tire profiles that wider rims now provide.
  • 5 0
 Light sidewalls are very prone to cuts... That's why I quit riding schwalbe, even though the traction is great
  • 1 0
 I am looking forward to switching out my supergravity tires for some evo snake skin ones. I'll be able to continue to run low pressure (I already run 18-20psi) with lighter tires. I just hope they start making the evo snake skin line in Vertstar compound! And yeah I hope the sidewalls don't tear.
I'm guessing you still have to run sealant on non tubeless tires with this system. Definitely look forward to trying it out this autumn (if it's out by then).
  • 1 0
 The snakeskins will get cut up if you ride lots of rocks. The last schwalbes I ran were snakeskin evo hans dampf
  • 1 0
 I found the SS Evo HD's sidewalls to be far far far far far far far too stiff even at 25psi... just a disaster to get traction out of them, without throwing all of my weight on the front end.
  • 1 0
 Humm...well I think I'll try a SS EVO with the dual system on the front wheel first and see how it works and then decide whether or not I'll switch over from my current setup (supergravity setup front and back with xc tubes on wide rims run at 18-20psi). I am tempted with the possible 400g rotational weight loss...
  • 1 0
 I ran my HD's at 20psi front and back, tubeless.... when I dented both rims that was the end of that tyre for me. Went to Nobby Nics but found that they disappeared in 5/6 rides. Conti' Rubber Queen BC 2.25inch, just the best for me running tubeless 25/30psi. Riding trailcentre stuff though, not DH.
  • 1 0
 Well the procore is supposed to protect the rim so denting should be a thing of the past. As for fast wearing rubber well I have the vertstar from and it has lasted for over 6months. The back is trailstar (harder) and yeah it is wearing faster but still can't complain. I want maximum performance from my tires so don't mind spending the extra money even if they don't last the year.
  • 6 0
 It's the same system as the Nuetech Tubliss that is done in Moto,
nuetech.com
  • 3 1
 ha I just posted the samething below, it's a good idea for Moto, but I think an even better idea for MTB
  • 9 3
 I bet this idea will gain a lot of traction with riders deflated by their normal tire system.
  • 6 1
 the core concept is excellent, which will grip customers with much interest. the days of flats are drifting away, which will ease the pressure that pro racers are under so that they can ride flat out.
  • 3 4
 please, someone create a puns thread so these morons can fill it up with rubbish and leave the comments section for valid comments
  • 4 0
 I dont really mind the puns if they kill the bitching about wheelsize and everything looking like a Session.
  • 1 4
 Yeh perhaps that was a little harsh, I just proper winds me up when I read through the comments section to see if anyone has had any interesting thoughts or insights and end up having to sift through about a million puns. A few are funny but most are not really. They just make the comments section a massive ballache to trawl through.
  • 3 0
 relax sir have a little fun. dont take the internet that seriously.
  • 2 3
 i am very relaxed. perhaps a little too relaxed as i have just spilled tea all down my front. i just like to read interesting stuff about bikes whilst relaxing in my own tea and these endless puns are becoming quite a hindrance. i believe there are sites where this sorta stuff is positively encouraged. reddit for example
  • 3 1
 your post will not prevent us from continuing to do the very thing that makes you proper wound up. life is unfair. deal with it.
  • 1 3
 thats a shame. and i do deal with it daily. have you tried reddit? you might like it. i prefer proper conversations myself. thats kinda what drew me to pb.
  • 3 0
 I'm good here, thank you for the suggestion though. If the puns upset you so much, just stop reading. We're not going to stop just because you told us to. You should be complaining to the +160 thumbs up on the first post and all those puns after it if you're so proper wound up about puns.
  • 3 0
 quit being a buzz kill gabriel and have a little fun man!
  • 3 0
 Gabriel-Mission I agree these puns are as annoying as being bitten by a snake! I also tire myself out trying to roll through this wheelhouse of puns that are spinning out of control, but they spoke up sooner, so my efforts are drifting away, and now i look like a knob. We need to gain traction on this argument by telling people not to tread on our website! you people are so full of hot air... i'm gonna go watch the tube.
  • 3 0
 This is game changing stuff! It'll go into the same category as Dropper posts and 1x11. The future of modern mountain biking. Bet Maxxis and all the other tyre brands are twitching about this.
  • 2 0
 "Significantly lighter tires can be used in even the toughest conditions" --Wouldn't you still need heavy protection in the sidewall of the outer tire? You wouldn't want to rip that bitch and ride on the internal only... Don't really see the point of that argument.
  • 1 0
 I was thinking the same, it doesn't help you in a rock section or where something rips or penetrates the sidewall, or is the inner tube made of something indestructible?
  • 1 0
 A good idea but i think mtb is yet to see an ultimate solution, will this system work with UST sealed bed rims? I've still managed to have pinch flats even running tyres at high pressure and Tubeless tyres weigh quite a bit, now you have another 200g on top of it... That's going to be some serious rotational weight! No doubt this system will be awesome til something better comes up.
  • 1 0
 I guess you don't need the extra strong sidewalls with this system, so the lighter tire you can use will make up for that 200g.
  • 1 0
 Currently any lighter tyres wont hold the air in without sealant though, the weight comes in part from the sealing layer, maybe schwalbe have accounted for this... I wish they quoted some weights
  • 2 0
 A tire with a light casing and very low pressure sounds like an awful combo to me. Plenty of grip but no support whatsoever.
  • 1 0
 I wonder if you could jerry rig an at home version of this with a small diameter puncture resistant tube inside a tire with its own dedicated valve stem. The idea would be not to inflate the inner tube till it touches the inside of the tire and then separately inflate the tire to a low psi. Hmmmm...... I atta try this.
  • 3 0
 My buddy and I debated this for a bit. The problem is they run the inner chamber at high pressure you will be unable to reach with a tube alone. Pressure requires something to push back, and your tube will just keep growing. For an illustration, try pumping a tube to 50 lbs without a tire or rim. It will never get there.
  • 2 0
 tttyyler - so couldn't you just drill an extra hole and use a tubless sytem in one and HD tube in the other. Stick 15psi into tubeless side and then top up with tube side? Think I'm missing something, surely it can't be that easy?
  • 1 0
 they have the inner chamber at 55 lbs. You will only be able to get the same pressure in your tube as you have in the tubeless side pushing against. A tube at 20 lbs probably offers minimal protection for your rim. Someone further down mentioned wrapping the tube in gaffers tape so you can pressurize it. that actually might work if you could get the sizing just right
  • 1 0
 Perhaps the pressure it would require to pump the tube up to press the bead of the tire in the rim would be sufficient to get a similar effect with an at home version. Or as someone else suggested wrapping the tube with some kind of strong tape such as gorilla tape to counter the pressure without over expanding the tube. But these ideas just add weight
  • 2 1
 It's not amazing, it adds weight and it's unnecessary. If you run tubeless you don't have to worry about pinch flats, only tire burping. But a good hookless tubeless wide rim, like Derby, Ibis, LB or Nextie are built to tighter tolerances and they don't burp and because they're wider, they have a larger contact patch and higher volume so you can run lower pressures for better traction and speed. Yes that's right higher speed. To those that think that higher pressure equates to faster rolling speed offroad need to do some research. That only applies to smooth on road surfaces. For offroad, lower pressures conform to the trail, have better traction and have been proven to be more efficient, (faster rolling with less energy spent) than higher pressures, which give you less traction and are less efficient. Just sayin...
  • 2 4
 You've obviously never actually tried your lower PSI = higher speed hypothesis. Unless you're riding on the bike path or your definition of "fast" is different than mine, that equation is just going to leave you with dented rims.
  • 2 0
 I hope people would finally stop the bs about tire size and rim diameter affecting the size of the contact patch. Only two things define size of the contact patch: tire pressure and rider+bike weight. Everything else only alters the shape. Very basic physics. Sorry for the rant.
  • 1 0
 rant away, you are completely correct
  • 3 0
 www.schwalbetires.com/wider_faster_page
  • 3 0
 www.mtbonline.co.za/downloads/Rolling_Resistance_Eng_illustrated.pdf
  • 1 0
 Yes, I understand that lower pressure = lower rolling resistance. The problem is that if you put low pressure in your tires you will dent your rim when you hit rocks and roots at high speed. Best case you dent your rim and you have to bend it back after the ride, worst case your tubeless setup can't hold air because of the rim deformation.

For example, I am able to run lower pressures in my XC race bike than my DH bike, because the XC bike see lower speeds and fewer rocks. I'm sure running 20 psi on my XC bike would give me great traction and rolling resistance, but it's a hell of a lot less efficient when I need to stop on the side of the trail and throw a tube in after hitting a rock wrong. If you want to go fast you need higher psi to prevent rocks from ruining your day.
  • 1 0
 If u run wide hookless rims, tubeless, u get higher air volume, no burping and no pinch flats. With higher air volume, u can run lower pressures without hurting your rims, (because of the higher air volume). 20 lbs of air in a wide rim feels like a skinny rim with 25-30 lbs. U end up with a bigger contact patch, better traction and the tires don't roll or squirm on the rim under hard turning loads like they do on a skinny rim. U just won't understand this until u try it. It's a bigger improvement than going to 27.5 or 29.
  • 1 0
 why hookless? surely that would be easier to burp?
  • 1 0
 I use to think so too, but they are built to tight tolerances so the bead is really tight against the rim walls, both side and the rim bed. Car and motorcycle rims don't use a rim bead and they see a lot higher forces than a mountain bike. Plus the rim side wall is thicker than a rim with a bead, so it's stronger. I've been using wide hookless carbon rims for a while now and even running lower pressure, I've yet to burp the tire, even through fast turns, jumps, drops and rock gardens at speed.
  • 1 0
 i guess, but then cars and motorbikes have faaar heavier rims and tyres which need a foot long steel tyre lever to fit. inspires a bit more confidence than something you can fit with 4" of nylon fiber. i guess the only way to know for sure is to ride them and i havent, you have
  • 3 1
 This is all great and dandy, but Schwable needs to work on making tires with knobs that don't disintegrate after 150-200 miles of desert riding FIRST. So now I have to drill another hole in my rims... yeah no thanks.
  • 1 3
 You won't be drilling any holes for this. I think you will need a specially built rim as to not compromise the strength of your current rim.
  • 1 0
 "Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm."

Yes, you will be drilling an extra hole for this, unless you buy a rim specifically designed for this, which will surely be available as well as the option to use your own.
  • 1 0
 I wouldn't fancy drilling holes, Seems like it might compromise the strength.
  • 1 0
 Mick Hannah has been running a similar system to this for a while now. Does that mean Hutchinson will release them soon too? Never really liked running low pressures cause of the risk of damaging the rim and the increased rolling resistance. This solves one of those problems. Mick talked of some way for his inner tube to re inflate the tyre somehow. I don't understand how that would work though.
  • 1 0
 Gotta be honest, the thought of this tech on some MX35 rims makes me more excited that it should. 20psi on 28.5mm ID wide rims?
HELLS YEAH!
That would stick like s**t to a blanket but $1500/£1100 for wheels and tyres?
F*** NO!
  • 1 0
 I've been running a similar system to this for a month or so now and it is amazing what you can get away with. The downside is weight. The upside is I haven't had any flats running 20psi though soom very rocky rides in the lakes, peaks, and spain.
  • 1 0
 Reminds me of the THE Eliminator rim from many years ago. Only difference was that they didn't use an extra tube, but had a piece of rubber attached to the rim that was sticking out higher than the sidewalls. That system worked 100% perfectly.

I think this system is right in the middle of a normal set up and the THE Eliminator rim. It's a bit less snakebite-proof than the THE Eliminator rim, because the last part is still filled with air, and can still be compressed. But this version is lighter and more rider friendly, as the 2nd tube also absorbs a bit, instead of having the hard feeling of bumping onto your rim, like at the THE Eliminator.

For freestyle I think the THE Eliminator is still better, but for downhill and other offroad purposes this sounds like the best option Big Grin

I like the idea and love to see how the industry is improving itself!
  • 1 0
 I had those rims...they did the job but they were heaaavyy...
  • 1 0
 Yes and no. Because first I had 700g rims (needed a strong rim) and 850g tyres (for less snakebites), but I still had many snakebites. Then I switched to these 900g rims, but then I suddenly was able to ride tyres under 500g with no problem. So in the end it ended up being lighter and more effective than my original set up.
  • 1 0
 Would a small tube blown up to say 15psi then wrapped in ductape do the same job inside a tubeless set-up on the cheap? I remember bmxing as a kid, ductape was always a last resort to getting you home, made the ride very bumpy at one point but worked.
  • 1 0
 I suppose, the whole thing is quite messy to set up. You need the "procore" and a tubeless-ready tire along with some amount of sealant - or will it work with a UST tire too?. Next thing to consider is, that not all rims will take the new system, as every manufacturer has a different bed-design. Mavic and Syntace should do ok given who's riding the new system (mostly Mavic-athetes as for now?).
But I def. would like to try it.
  • 1 0
 From the article: "Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with *conventional tires and rims* with a minimum internal width of 23mm."

Tubeless-ready/UST tires not necessary, and yes all rims (23mm wide or wider) will take the system.
  • 3 0
 Really surprised nobody mentioned Stan's new Hugo rim which is a completely different attempt at limiting pinch flats but without the added weight of the inner chamber.
  • 1 0
 The Bib Mousse was first introduced by Michelin in 1984. It is named after their mascot, Bibendum (Michelin Man). A Bib Mousse is a foam ring insert that takes the place of a regular air-filled tube. The closed cells of the butyl honeycomb foam are filled with nitrogen gas.

To achieve the best performance from a mousse, the fit between the mousse and the tire is critical. The mousse needs to put a certain amount of internal pressure on the inner tire casing in order for the tire to have good stability and to lessen sidewall rollover. This is a problem, since most tires vary in their inflated size for any given tread width and overall diameter.
Ktm or Paris dakar , is the same , punctures should not Be ....contact surface should be mandotary ! ans maximum , .if not optimal !
  • 1 0
 This doesn't excite me at all. I would rather pay for a nice set of Hutchinsons...go tubeless with Stans and forget about it. I've never had a pinch flat, leak or tire issue while running Hutchinsons on some very unforgiving trails. Hutchinson tires tubeless hold air better than any tire out there.
  • 1 0
 Am I the only one that does not like running low psi? Ive never ripped a tire right off the rim but for me if the pressure gets below 30psi it feels like its going to the entire time.

I could see how the high psi in the lower chamber might help with that feeling
  • 1 0
 I don't see an advantage. I run 18 psi rear tire and 10 psi front tire, with 33mm inside width front rim and 21mm inside width rear rims. I get away with a 530g 2.4 rocket ron rear and 750g 2.4 hansdampf or 800g 2.4 trail-king, on the fronts. I just don't see these catching on. Why have a 200 gram weight penalty, per wheel. As far as flat protection goes. With tubeless ready tires and Stan's sealant. I just don't get flats, ever. My riding weight, pack and all is around 210 lbs. My wife's riding weight is closer to 115. She uses even less psi. 10 front and 15 rear.
  • 2 0
 Didn't SunRingle make something like this in early 2004/5? The rim had a hump in the center that was rubber that kept pinch flats from happening.
  • 2 1
 Not to be a disbeliever, but can someone explain me the real advantage over tubeless? converted both my bikes to tubeless and I'm yet to puncture, and ride really low pressures.
  • 3 1
 You won't burp with this; it holds the tyre in place on the rim. You could also still use stans or whatever in your tyres, so you can (kind of) run this + tubeless.
  • 2 0
 added rim protection as well due to the high pressure inner chamber which acts as an additional bumper
  • 2 0
 You may not have to deal with this bloody latex milk that made me quit tubeless. They don't mention that anywhere so it's quite hypothetical. I hope we don't need latex milk anymore.

Other advantage: if you get a hole in one of the two, you can still ride. Maybe Leov would have kept his win in Valloire's EWS with such a thing. Maybe not.
  • 2 0
 I run tubeless. The problem with tubeless is you're still psi limited on rocky terrain because you'll dent your rim or burp the tire. This is a tubeless system that fixes those problems when running low psi.
  • 3 0
 Just wrap an inner tube with gaffer tape and use that, about £3 a wheel I reckon.
  • 1 0
 Hmm... I wonder if I could do the same ghetto style with a tubular road tire.. It'll weight around 250-300g per tire and cost a whole lot less if you buy a pair of shitty tubulars..
  • 1 0
 lol cool idea.... already thought of a backyard way to do it. Maybe just stick 24" or 20" tube and stick in your tubeless setup run another value. Not sure how well it will work.
  • 1 0
 The thing that wouldn't work out with this idea is the fact that tubes can expand so much without actually popping. By the time you got enough pressure in there the wall would be so thin that it wouldn't take much to burst the tube. And you still need the "tubless" chamber...the tube would overfill and take up what you needed for a chamber. The bladder would have to be able to hold pressure without expanding.
  • 1 1
 I know it's kind of late, but I think this system would be awesome to make available as a kit to work with any wheel. Integrate it with a neoprene or seal of some kind that can form to the inside of the wheel profile. There would have to be high strength adhesive used between the bladder and the neoprene and the neoprene and the rim, but it's possible...then you could drill out the rim for the extra valve...hmm the wheels are turning...
  • 1 0
 German mtb-news.de forum already has some guys running a diy version with a tubular track tire (go as low as 160g, but pricey) and tubeless setup... seems to be working quite well
  • 1 0
 I just found out how much these will cost: around $200 USD for a set of 2! Yikes... now I have to debate whether it's really worth it or not. Traditional tubes or tubeless cost about $190 dollars less.
  • 3 4
 Do we need to drill our rims? If so... I suspect warranty is out the window, looks like a very very cool system. Yep, there is a weight penalty.. But if the WC racers still win with this kit.. That won't bother me. I just want more grip!! great development!
  • 5 0
 Have you ever managed to get a warranty replacement on a rim after it has been built into a wheel? I would have thought they'd just blame the wheel builder if something goes wrong after it's been built.
  • 13 2
 lol rim warranty
  • 6 1
 Hey, its a bummer to get a poor rim job. Nice to have that warranty.
  • 1 0
 The wheels will handle drilling if its done properly.
  • 8 1
 All this talk of drilling and rim jobs makes me wonder which site I am on….
  • 1 0
 Still hard to swallow price (150 euro per wheel according to another article) I'd have to try it first. Maybe shops could do demo setups. Otherwise, looks good.
  • 1 0
 150 per set. My bad
  • 2 0
 No way could they charge 150 euro a wheel. How could this setup cost more than two tyres? It's basically a thin tyre carcass turned into a tube, isn't it?
  • 2 0
 I'd pay that, 150 Euro (£120, $205) for a real cure to pinch flats? Deal, take my money, no more choosing between sideways surfing on 30psi or smashing my wheels to pieces on less than 25psi.
  • 3 1
 Actually if you read the last sentence it says they will make the system convenient for all tires and rims!

"Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm".

So, essentially we could just purchase the inner tube, drill a separate hole for the inner tube and use our current set up!
Stupendous!

RideOn!
  • 1 0
 Yes, that's what will cost €150...
  • 9 0
 Now to do what dh riders do best, and do anything to not pay msrp.
  • 2 3
 150 euros maybe quite a lot, but i assume it should pretty much never need replacing. if it really offers a serious increase in grip without too much loss in stability, and eliminates pinch flats then its money well spent. a set of carbon bars will cost that much and wont give you anywhere near the performance increase. and theyll want replacing after a few big crashes
  • 2 0
 Wait for the cheaper alternatives to come out, Stans should be jumping on this for one....
  • 2 1
 So is the tire and tube one unit? what if you slice a tire? buy a whole new set up, they can't be cheap… I'm hoping you can use this system with any tire for that reason.
  • 1 0
 it says it works with standard tyres so it's a separate part.
  • 1 0
 So wouldn't this effectively lower the volume of the tire itself? The high pressure insert is eating up volume of the original tire.
  • 1 0
 I'm sometimes confused about the wheel size and its tires.

so I get this (a german infographic):

http://www.alpenradler.com/infografik-26-vs-650b-vs-29/
  • 1 0
 Dear Schwalbe: make some CX tires with this. in cx tubeless is sketchy and tubulars are expensive and a pain to replace. thanks.
  • 1 0
 so they have reinvented the Le' System by Michelin its not new, but its reinvented and hopefully might make some more headway.
  • 1 0
 Very interesting article. Now I just want to try this sticky feeling on my DH bike...
  • 2 0
 would definitely wanna try this for trials
  • 1 0
 Schwalbe: you can't get this to market soon enough. My rims, tires, wallet, family, friends, me, will thank you.
  • 2 2
 Aye but will you still be able to pick the side knobbles off with your fingers after one weekends racing at Glencoe like I was able to do with my new Magics?....feckin sh1te!
  • 2 1
 Seems like a good idea!

how much added weight?

Does this mean tubeless is going to be a thing of the past....?
  • 1 0
 200g in the description and this system is still "tubless" as this doesn't act like an inner tube but more of a bumper so you'd still need sealant or a sealed tyre.
BUT this bumper could make seating a tubless tyre super easy
  • 1 0
 Not a new system at all, both moto and 4x4s (jeeps etc...) already had this. Awesome we have it now.
  • 2 0
 Sumitomo tyres, and they gotta be run flat...
  • 1 0
 Lol
  • 1 0
 Will it only work with schwalbe tires? How fast can you change a flat if one does occur, and what is the cost?
  • 1 0
 "Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm."
  • 1 1
 maybe useful for a pro racer. I see no benefit for an average DH rider. if you get flats running tubeless, you have serious issues to address
  • 2 0
 I got flats running tubeless. So did Gwin 10 days ago and all the top Brit ladies. Yes I know, I don't ride as hard as they do. But I make more mistakes!
  • 1 0
 yeah, if its good in moto, it might work on bikes! Oh well, they had it first www.nuetech.com/tubliss
  • 1 0
 well, puns aside, I guess mounting that tire/'tube' combination onto a rim might be quite hard.
  • 1 0
 So Schwalbe reinvented the inner tube in... "blue" colour with a smaller diameter!
  • 2 0
 .. and will be avaible for 26" ? or only for 27,5" ?
  • 2 0
 With two valves close to each other would the wheel not need balancing?
  • 1 0
 Nice the inner tube cant expand but you pump it up to non pinch flat air pressure. Good for DH. adds weight to XC wheels.
  • 1 0
 Back to the drawing board... its estimated by 2016 Aaron Gwin will have proved tyres unnecessary
  • 1 0
 This is very very cool. I love the innovation of this sport. Keep it up!
  • 2 0
 when can i buy some ?
  • 1 3
 You need to wait until they release it! hahahahah
  • 1 0
 Would love to try this, just wish i could use my current wheelset.
  • 3 1
 I think they will be making it convenient for all tires and rims!

The last sentence says;
"Schwalbe will be responsible for the production and marketing of the system that is expected to be compatible with conventional tires and rims with a minimum internal width of 23mm".

Pretty cool!
RideOn!
  • 1 1
 1 bar ? And what about rolling resistance ? Can't imagine riding below 2 bars
  • 1 0
 That'll be hard to mount!
  • 1 0
 This is a big step forward in mountain biking. I can't wait.
  • 1 0
 This is exactly how current aftermarket dirt bike systems are.
  • 3 3
 Is this for riding in the dunes?
  • 4 4
 no. its for dh
  • 1 0
 Yeah it was a joke....I seen this back in 07 in moto and it never really took off
  • 2 1
 I like it
  • 1 1
 It's called ghetto tubeless!
  • 2 0
 "Ghetto tubeless" is when you use a 24" tube, split down the middle, as a tubeless rim strip on a 26" rim (26" tube for a 29" rim).
  • 1 1
 Thanks for cutting and pasting the words from the Schwalbe website. lol
  • 3 0
 Mike said "The official press release from Schwalbe is below."
  • 1 1
 Two in One Valve, end of story.
  • 1 4
 why presta valves??? i thort we learnt our lesson of copying road bikes with quick release? great idea as long as the tyre sidewall can cope & im interested in trying it but why presta valves???
  • 1 1
 Already used in moto.
  • 1 0
 Already used in DH...weren't the top riders sticking a partially inflated tube into their tubeless set-ups as a DIY option a few years ago? What's stopping you drilling an extra hole and fitting tube in one hole and tubeless valve in the other?
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